Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
New Shocking Revelations Tonight About The Slender Man Story; Morgan`s Mother Revealed Her Daughter Has Been Diagnosed With Schizophrenia And Should Be Tried As A Juvenile; Caught On Camera, An 18-Year-Old African-American Girl Slammed To The Ground; A Sperm Donor Who Has Fathered More Than Two Dozen Children, Doing It For Free, But He Is Paying A Price At Home. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired June 28, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:17] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM: New revelations tonight about the Slender Man story. Two girls charged with trying to
murder their friends by having stabbed her 19 times. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Two pre-teen girls trying to please the creepy fictitious internet ghoul, Slender Man, plotted to stab their friend
to death and they almost succeeded. That is according to prosecutors who charged them with attempted first-degree murder as adults.
Morgan Geyser, 13, and Anissa Wier, 14, are waiting to be tried two years after they allegedly lured their 12-year-old friend into the woods
and thrust a kitchen knife into her 19 times. Tonight, a shocking new twist. Morgan`s mother revealed her daughter has been diagnosed with
schizophrenia and should be tried as a juvenile.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And here is Morgan`s mother, Angie, talking to the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGIE GEYSER, MOTHER OF MORGAN: Everybody`s favorite comment seems to be, if you go on the news article and read comments, people say "Adult
crime, adult time," and I mean, that is just BS. It is -- an adult crime is a crime committed by an adult, period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me, Sara Azari, Criminal Defense Attorney; Loni Coombs, Attorney, former Prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other
Lies Parents Tell; Judy HO, Clinical Psychologist and Professor at Pepperdine University and Jon Leiberman, Investigator Correspondent. Jon,
tell us what else we should know about this case.
JON LEIBERMAN, INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Drew, we have been digging into the case, and in fact, we found out that Morgan was actually
sent back. The girl sent back to that mental health facility earlier this month the same one that she was diagnosed with the schizophrenia. In
addition, it has come out her father actually had been diagnosed several years ago with a similar mental illness as well.
The mother says that she never noticed any warning signs in Morgan, and the judge now has yet to decide whether the case should be transferred
to juvenile court. One thing that we need to keep in mind, Drew, when we open this discussion, is this, we knew that some sort of mental health
defense was probably going to come up into this case.
But another issue in this case as well, prosecutors claim that this crime was so premeditated, that it was plotted out for months and months
and months. And that, of course, is going to work against the defense claim that this girl was mentally impaired to the level that they are going
to now claim.
PINSKY: Jon, great work. Thank you for that update. Let me go to my attorneys. Loni, first to you. Do you think this is an issue for this
girl?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Well, I think it is definitely something that she can claim. Look, she is in adult court, and in Wisconsin, the law is
very clear. Anyone who is 10 years or older and charged with certain crimes including murder as she is charged with -- or attempted murder,
excuse me, they automatically get thrown into adult court, all the way down to 10 years old.
Now, you can hear that these girls were very young when this happened, but they are within that age frame. So she is not going to be
able to get back into juvenile court based on this, but they might be able to make some type of insanity plea out of this. I think coupled that with
her age, and that might be a defense that they raise.
PINSKY: I do not know. Sara, I do not know. I do not know.
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes
PINSKY: Because the level of premeditation was so meticulous and so bizarre and so heinous.
AZARI: Right. And I think that with respect to her mental illness, it is going to go to the factors that the court will consider to determine
whether she should be, you know, it is called a fitness hearing, whether she should be tried as a juvenile or an adult. And one of those factors is
her level of sophistication.
So is she can successfully prove that at the time she committed the crime she was in fact mentally ill, because she was diagnosed after she was
in custody then, perhaps, she can negate that sophistication element and go back to juvenile court for trial. But it is going to be very difficult
because the severity of the crime itself in the way that it was carried out, it just -- it -- the sophistication is inherent in the crime itself.
PINSKY: OK. Let me show you more from Morgan`s mother. This is now still courtesy of Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGIE GEYSER: Protect your child from bad things happening to them, and, I felt like I failed. How did I -- how did not I know? How did not I
know that she was sick? She got her period right before she was arrested, so there was some things that we dismissed as maybe typical teenage girl
behavior.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Judy, I have sympathy for that mom, but guess what, she did fail. She absolutely did fail. And now we are hearing the dad has mental
illness. So his insight was impaired. It was a lot for us to sort through here. I will let you have at it.
[19:05:00] JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, there is a lot to sort through, Dr. Drew, and what we see here is a long history where she
has plotted this as Sara and Loni both brought up, but was she really in a some kind of floor of psychotic state when she committed this? I would
argue against that. I think --
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. If floored psychotic and not able to know right from wrong.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: She believed this Slender Man craziness was real.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: She believes that man was telling her to do things and she would lose her friendship unless she killed somebody. And as opposed to
going, I could never do that, she then went on a lengthy journey to plot out murder of a friend. And then had the diabolical ability to enlist
another kid, we have not talked about her liabilities yet, but there is a lot here beyond mental illness, and people with schizophrenia do not do
this.
HO: Exactly. And that is the problem here, because she may have had early onset schizophrenia. She might have it in her family history,
because her father has the diagnosis, and was in and out of the hospital four times in his life so far.
PINSKY: I did not know that.
AZARI: But my question is --
HO: But here is the problem. Here is the problem. A lot of people do not know the signs of early onset schizophrenia. That is a very rare
condition. People -- sometimes misattribute.
PINSKY: Jon. Hold on.
HO: So, what kind of job does a parent do --
PINSKY: Right. Thank you, that is it. Jon?
LEIBERMAN: Well, look, I have covered plenty of cases where, I mean - - or just, look, everybody who has schizophrenia is not going out and committing these sorts of crimes.
PINSKY: That is the point.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: That is the point.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: Not everybody. Almost none.
LEIBERMAN: None. That is what I am saying, yes. And that is a big point that we cannot forget is that, I mean, I know we keep saying it over
and over, but this case -- most adults could not have carried out the sophistication.
PINSKY: Yes..
LEIBERMAN: And I have covered hundreds of these cases. The sophistication of luring this girl and the months and the writings --
PINSKY: It is diabolical. Diabolical. Sara, you want to say something, go ahead.
AZARI: No. I just have a question for you and Judy, which is my understanding of schizophrenia is that the onset is normally after the age
of 17 years.
PINSKY: Yes, that is why we are calling it early onset. It is unusual.
AZARI: OK., but is not that very rare?
HO: It is.
PINSKY: Very rare.
HO: It is rare. And I think that is the problem here. Maybe she does have schizophrenia, but I think we are all saying there is something
else to the picture. It is not just the schizophrenia. This complete premeditation -- this huge plan involving someone else, that -- the mother
should have caught, right? So she cannot catch schizophrenia, can she catch these types of activities?
PINSKY: Loni.
COOMBS: Well, it is interesting, though. She made some very interesting statements, too, at the time that she was arrested and she was
talking to the police, very strange ones, like, "I thought I would feel some guilt, but I really do not."
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: And why would she feel guilt? Because she did something that she thought people would think was wrong and she should feel guilty
for.
PINSKY: Right.
COOMBS: And that is what we are looking at when we are talking about the insanity defense is does she know right from wrong. It is not, "Do you
have a mental illness?"
PINSKY: Knowing right from wrong was having no idea what you are doing as opposed to understanding that you should feel bad when you do
something horrible.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: There are plenty of criminals who do bad things and really do not feel bad about it.
COOMBS: Right.
PINSKY: I got more from Morgan`s mother coming up.
And still to come, this guy, you are going to meet, he has fathered 25 children. This sperm donor will tell us why he is making babies all
over town for free. You have got to hear this story. We will talk to him. We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This girl, Morgan, had visual hallucinations that Slender Man visisterd her, that he put radiation into her body, then commanded her
to do things. What do we call that? That has a name.
HO: Wow. PINSKY: That has a name, right?
HO: Delusion.
PINSKY: That is a delusion with visual hallucinations in a 12-year- old. That is profound mental illness. There is no way to come up with those ideas at 12 unless you are having major psychosis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: If I was a betting man, I bet on significant psychiatric illness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was two years ago. The two pre-teen girls were alleged to have stabbed their friend 19 times to please the fictitious internal
ghoul. Just think about those words, come on, mom, dad? The girls were charged with attempted first-degree murder as adults.
And tonight, the mother of Morgan Geyser breaks her silence. She is reporting that her daughter has early onset schizophrenia as undoubtedly
she has in which I predicted years ago. Now, we are back with Sara, Loni, Judy, and Jon. I am going to show a little more from Morgan`s mother.
This is courtesy of Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AGIE GEYSER: Really, the worst part about this for Morgan is the fact that she was denied her right to privacy. The right that juveniles
usually are allowed. So that, you know, any time she tries to get a job, if somebody does a web search for her name, it is hard to ever think of, I
think, interacting normally with your peers again when everyone knows who you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Loni, she tried to kill someone, with psychiatric illness, what is he talking about?
COOMBS: Yes. I do not get it. I do not think this mother really gets the severity of what has happened here. I mean she is worried about
what her daughter`s friends are going to think and what type of jobs she is going to be able to get.
I mean, this girl could very easily go to prison for the rest of her life. Now, you have to understand, in Wisconsin, when you are charged with
a certain kind of crime like this one, you automatically go into adult court. I know Sara was talking about a fitness hearing.
In Wisconsin, it is not that way. You are in adult court. You can try and get back to juvenile court, which both of these girls did, and the
judge already said, "No, you are staying in adult court." So she is looking at a maximum of 65 years in prison. Her privacy instead is the
least of that mother`s worries. It is going to be if she ever gets out of prison, basically.
LEIBERMAN: Yes --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Jon.
AZARI: But I think there is an appeal to make --
LEIBERMAN: Yes. And to Loni --
PINSKY: Wait. Jon first. Jon, go ahead. Jon.
LEIBERMAN: Yes, to Loni`s point, if she were to go back into the juvenile system, she is only looking at three years max and then supervised
probation until she is 18. So, if she goes back to that juvenile system, she gets a slap on the wrist.
[19:15:00] PINSKY: Well, and she will be -- there is no doubt she will be in psychiatric care for the rest of her life, but people do not
always follow up or follow through. Look at our homeless situation. A lot of it is that.
Joining us, Stephen Lyons, he is the spokesman for the family of the Victim, Payton Leutner. Morgan`s mother sas her daughter`s diagnosis of
Schizophrenia entitles her to be tried as a juvenile. Stephen, that does not make sense to me. What is she talking about?
STEPHEN LYONS, FAMILY REP. FOR STABBING VICTIM: Well, her comments are very concerning. You know, one of the things that I think many in the
media have missed is that if they were tried as juveniles, the likelihood that both assailants would be released with little to know supervision than
have those records expunged is likely.
PINSKY: Well, that is what my panel was just saying is that after three years, she goes back out. I am saying, well, she will need lifelong
psychiatric care, but people often do not follow through, at least with more of a serious conviction, she will be required to follow through.
LYONS: Right. And, you know, the other thing, and I saw the interview and the family saw the interview with Angie Geyser, but, you
know, one of the thingsthat she did not talk about was the, you know, the premeditation of this horrific attack.
PINSKY: Yes.
LYONS: That these assailants had planned for months. You know, allegedly had three different plans on how they are going to do this
attack.
PINSKY: And Mr. Lyons, one of my panelists pointed out, I think Loni you said this during the police interrogation, she reported that she felt
no guilt. And she thought it was sort of bad she did not feel problematic about what she had just done.
LYONS: Right. And that is why the family continues to fully support the actions of the District Attorney. I mean, we need to keep this little
girl, our little girl safe and the community safe.
PINSKY: Let us listen to what Morgan`s mother said about Payton, whom she refers to her by her nickname, Bella, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGIE GEYSER: I think that there is this idea that if you show some compassion for Morgan and Anissa, that you are in turn not being supportive
of the victim. And I mean, we love Bella. Bella, you know, she ate dinner at my table and I hugged her good night when she had sleepovers. We loved
Bella. We still do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Also, Stephen, the mother reported that this woman -- this girl did not want to lose the so-called friend she had been hallucinating
about. Using that as the reason to refuse her treatment, not that she would not take treatment, very bizarre thinking. Help me with that.
LYONS: Well, and, again, I cannot think for them or speak for that family, but for the Leutner family, I mean, again, we have to look at their
little girl was lured into the woods and stabbed 19 times, and stabbed in the lung, and was stabbed in her heart, the pancreas.
They brutally attacked this little girl and walked away. And so to say, "Oh, you know, she should be out, she should be with her family. You
know, this poor thing." Again, the victim, again, was stabbed 19 times. It was a 12-year-old girl and this premeditation, this horrific attack,
that should not be taken lightly.
PINSKY: Yes.
AZARI: But I have a question for Stephen. Is the decision as to whether they should be tried as juveniles or adults, is that on appeal and
supposed to be heard in July?
LYONS: Right now, there have been a number of appeals, and it looks like, my understanding, the next round, and I am not an attorney, but the
next set of appeals could go into September and into next February. There are a number of appeals pending. But the district attorney has charged
them both as adults based on my understanding, based on the premeditation and the severity of this horrific attack.
PINSKY: Mr. Lyons, thanks for joining us. Thank you, panel.
Next up, outrage over a viral video. Police, perhaps using excessive force? What do you think? Or were they doing this for good reason?
Still to come, he fathered 25 children and counting for free. Meet the sperm donor who is generating a lot of children and a lot of
controversy. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Caught on camera, an 18-year-old African-American girl slammed to the ground. She is punched, kneed at the back, tased by two
Wisconsin police officers. Police say they were justified in these actions, because she was resisting arrest. We have the tape. And I want
to issue this warning to you, it may be disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Get your hands behind your back.
GENEL LAIRD, 18-YEAR-OLD AFRICAN-AMERICAN FEMALE: Arrest me then [EXPLETIVE WORD].
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Put your hands behind your back.
LAIRD: Cannot you guys just [EXPLETIVE WORD]. [EXPLETIVE WORD].
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Get on the ground now!
LAIRD: You cannot --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Get on the ground!
LAIRD: Do not you kill me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Stop kicking me. Do it now.
LAIRD: No!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Stop! Stop kicking me.
LAIRD: You are hurting me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFICER: Put your arms behind your back. Do it now. Get your hands behind your back. Put your hands behind your back.
Do it now. Put your hands behind your back. Do it now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sara, Loni and Jon. Joining me, Areva Martin, attorney, and retired Lieutenant, Randy Sutton, Los Angeles Metropolitan
Police Department. Jon, give us some more back story. What led up to this?
LEIBERMAN: Yes. Well, you cannot just watch that tape in a vacuum. Let us look at the context a little bit, and that is we put together a
timeline, Drew, of exactly what led up to that video that you saw, and here is what we came up with.
First, you have the young lady allegedly threatening a Taco Bell employee inside the mall saying she has a knife, claiming her phone has
been stolen, then mall security confronts her. She refuses to leave.
She then, and this is important, according to police, made numerous threats to kill the security staff. That is when the police come. She
gives her name to them, then tries to leave. Officers try to put her under arrest as you saw in the video.
And later on, they do discover a knife inside of her book bag. That is what we know about the chronology leading up to the video that you just
saw.
PINSKY: Thank you, Jon. And Randy, you spoke to the Madison Police Department about this. Now, do you feel like this degree of aggression was
warranted?
LT. RANDY SUTTON (RET.), LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN: It was not a degree of aggression, it was simply a matter using the proper amount of force to
effect arrest. You know, the officers do not look good with any use of force. Anytime you put your hands on somebody, it looks ugly.
The fact of the matter is that the responsibility what took place here is on that woman. She is the one that made the decision not or force
the issue, and so she is the one that wound up getting arrested.
PINSKY: Areva, this idea of proper use of force, that is a broad swath, is not it?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Yes. When I looked at the tape, Dr. Drew, I could not help but think about Sandra Bland, Eric Gardner, the kids that we
saw in Dallas who were at a swim party who were arrested by a police officer. The optics on this are horrible.
When you think about trying to reconcile and to have some degree of unity between the African-American community and police, this just furthers
that gap. It furthers the distrust amongst African-Americans.
There was a particular nine seconds in the video where it appeared to me that the young woman`s hands were behind her back, but yet the police
kept saying, "Put your hands behind your back. Put your hands behind your back." So, I do not know what else she could have done during that period
because she seemed to have been complying with the police.
PINSKY: OK. Before you, Randy -- wait, Randy. Hold on. We will get back to Sara. Go ahead, Sara.
SUTTON: All right.
AZARI: Me?
PINSKY: Yes.
AZARI: OK. And, she was already on the ground. I agree with Areva. They were continuing to kick her in her ribs and punch her. That is
blatant excessive force. Nothing in the scenario, to me --
SUTTON: Wrong.
AZARI: Nothing in the scenario justifies the force that was used, and it is actually disgusting and actually reminds me of the Eric Gardner case
with the NYPD, because she, too, saying, "I cannot breathe. I cannot breath."
PINSKY: Randy. Randy, go ahead.
SUTTON: Which, of course, she made up for the camera. She was playing this. She played this up for people just like you who are going to
buy into it. The fact of the matter is that when she was down on the ground, she was still kicking.
She was spitting. That is when she spit in police officer`s face. The fact of the matter is this was on her. She is the one that made the
choices not to go peaceably, which is her responsibility.
AZARI: Resisting arrest does not call for this type of force.
SUTTON: Yes, it does. Yes, it does.
PINSKY: Yes, Randy --
AZARI: I am not denying that she resisted arrest.
PINSKY: She was unarmed. Do not think --
SUTTON: She was armed.
PINSKY: Well, the knife --
AZARI: It was in the backpack.
PINSKY: Yes, the knife was inside the building.
COOMBS: They did not know.
SUTTON: They did not know where the knife was.
PINSKY: And, Loni --
SUTTON: All they know was that she was armed with the knife. She resisted arrest. And you can use the force necessary to effect the arrest.
If you saw -- now, when you look at the first part of the video, the officer was trying to hold her and simply trying to put her into custody.
He waited. He should have used force then and knocked her down.
PINSKY: Lony, the DA has decided not to charge this woman with anything as long as she completes something called restorative justice
programs.
COOMBS: Yes.
SUTTON: Yes. It is an appeasement.
PINSKY: Well, whatever. Now, normally, that is for people who commit misdemeanors.
COOMBS: Right.
PINSKY: But she was facing two felonies. Sara, you are trying to jump in here. I want to ask Loni, but Loni go ahead tell me about this.
COOMBS: Look, I think the program itself, which has been in place there in the state for about a year is a good idea. It usually allows
people, young people, to up to the age of 22, 25, who are charged with low- level misdemeanors who kind of have this other route of do what the community, and it actually is a group of community members who listen to
what happened, and they decide what they need to do to make amends, and if they follow what they have told them to do, then they get everything
expunged.
PINSKY: It sounds very Kumbaya --
(LAUGHING)
COOMBS: Really. It is, but Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: I have to say something. In general, it is a great way to keep people out of the very overcrowded justice system.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
COOMBS: And turn around their lives. Now, applying it to this case where the police chief said, look, there is potential felonies here. I
prepared a complaint with felonies in it.
PINSKY: Potential felonies? She has threatened to kill a bunch of people.
COOMBS: That is right. So we had to get a special exception, a special waiver from the police chief to go ahead and do this.
PINSKY: All right. I get it. So Areva, how do we reconcile these things? I do not know, you know, this looks bad. No one can deny that.
There is this big sort of giant sort of zone of necessary force, and there is a woman who really was dangerous. I mean, she really was. Let us face
it.
[19:30:00] MARTIN: Yes. No excuse for her conduct and lawyer came on T.V. and accepted responsibility for her conduct, but we can do what
Randy is doing. We can continue to try to be right or to be so obstinate on what is right or we can try to heal a community that has been fractured
by excessive force of cops against African-American. So this is a textbook case of the optics.
PINSKY: It is the optics.
MARTIN: We can fix the optics here. We do not see young white teenagers being taken down by cops with their knees in their back and being
punched like this.
SUTTON: You are killing me.
MARTIN: Those video, they may be out there, but they do not go viral. It is always African-Americans and white cops.
PINSKY: Randy. Randy, real quick, tell me why that is killing you?
SUTTON: Because she actually just said it. Because it is an African- American. Believe me, it does not -- it would not make one bit of difference if this woman was white or black or Hispanic or Chinese. It is
her conduct. That is it.
PINSKY: All right. We got to leave it.
SUTTON: It is her personal conduct.
PINSKY: Next up, I am bringing in her Genele`s biggest defender. It is her sister. She has a message for police. She is here with me.
And still to come, a sperm donor says he is helping others by providing his services, kind of helping himself. You be the judge. Back
after this.
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Get your hands behind your back.
GENEL LAIRD, 18-YEAR-OLD AFRICAN-AMERICAN FEMALE: Arrest me then [EXPLETIVE WORD].
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Put your hands behind your back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISMAEL OZANNE, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, DANE COUNTY: As many of you may know from the cell phone video posted on line, a sec officer arrived, and
the officer did use physical force to bring Ms. Laird under control.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Do it now! Stop! Stop kicking me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OZANNE: During that time, Ms. Laird did continue to struggle with the officers and spit at them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Keep your face down. Do not spit on me again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The video shows from a witness shows two officers aggressively taking down an 18-year-old African-American girl. The mall
security had been called after Genele Laird allegedly threatened a restaurant employee with a knife. Back with Sara, Loni, Jon, Areva and
Randy. And on the phone, I have Deirdre Thompson, Genele`s sister. Deirdre, thanks for being here. And I want to ask what was your reaction
when you saw that video?
DEIRDRE THOMPSON, GENELE LAIRD`S SISTER: Yes. No problem, Dr. Drew. Are you guys hearing me OK?
PINSKY: Got you loud and clear.
THOMPSON: OK, great. When I first saw the video, I was really shocked and stunned. I had only seen just the piece of video that someone
had posted on Facebook. I did not see the whole video until I got around my whole family and we watched the whole video together. We were all
really sad and angry and just really shocked that they would treat my sister like this.
PINSKY: And do you have a message for the police? What do you think about how they handled this?
THOMPSON: I definitely have a message for the police, and I said it when I was in Madison, Wisconsin to see my sister. This is something that
is reoccurring with how they treat certain individuals, whether it is by race, by social class, or their mental health issues. They need to look
into their procedures on how they treat people because I do not think anyone deserves this kinds of treatment or any of the treatment --
PINSKY: Deirdre, you bring an interesting a new wrinkle into this conversation. You bring up mental health issues and of course I am very
concerned about that. I do think police are not sophisticated on how they deal with stuff that really cube easily deescalated. Does your sister have
mental health issues?
THOMPSON: No. I am referring to Mr. Paul Heenan that was shot and killed by Matt Kenny who was then able to shoot and kill Tony Robinson.
PINSKY: Do you think that your sister bears responsibility for some of this at least?
THOMPSON: All of it. Absolutely all of it, because she is not only embarrassed about the video going viral. She is embarrassed that police
felt that they had to take it to that point. She definitely takes full responsibility for her actions on the inside of the mall.
PINSKY: OK. Thank you, Deidre, I appreciate you being here. I mean, Loni, that goes back to your issue of this sort of dispensation she is
getting. What do they call it again? A special --
COOMBS: Restorative justice.
PINSKY: It reminds me of "Animal House," where they get super, super special -- just does not sound right to me, but it sounds like she is
willing to take responsibility and do what she has got to do, which is that is a good sign.
COOMBS: Absolutely. And, look, it was just last month, well this month, I think. In June, that this police department was -- they have
agreed -- they have approved $400,000 study to look into their policies and procedures.
Now, they do not usually approve that much money going to a city like that unless there is an issue there. So there are obviously issues here.
There has been tensions in this community. This brought it up to the forefront immediately after this happened. There were community leaders
that came to the police chief who met with them that night, the night of the arrest.
PINSKY: Yes. This is very different than back in the day. Areva, you and I were talking off air a little bit about these kinds of stories
first started breaking, when everyone`s cell camera was being held up and this stuff was being documented. We made progress.
MARTIN: Yes, absolutely we have made progress, Dr. Drew, because we saw the police chief give a press conference. He explained what the
procedures are by his officers. We know that the police chief met with the family. We saw the attorney for the young girl come out and accept
responsibility. So we saw some movement in this situation that we have not been seen in some of the other cases.
[19:40:00] But again when you see that video, you cannot help but think this is how young people end up dead. So I hope that this police
department takes this very seriously and look at how they deescalate situations like this. Because a girl making threats in the mall should not
end up on video punched and kicked police officers.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, I have a sperm donor who has fathered more than two dozen children, doing it for free, but he is paying a price
at home. He is here with me. We will get into it after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAMIAN YOUNG, AS ATTORNEY WILLIAMS, IN THE FILM "DELIVERY MAN": Your sperm is of a very high quality.
VINCE VAUGHN, AS DAVID WOZNIAK, IN THE FILM "DELIVERY MAN": Well, thank you. I am sure your sperm is also high end.
YOUNG AS ATTY. WILLIAMS: Certain complications arose, which meant that for a period Mr. Grabowski-Levitt gave your sperm to all the women in
his clientele. You have sired 533 children and 142 of them wish to know your identity.
VAUGHN AS DAVID: What?
YOUNG AS ATTY. WILLIAMS: You are the biological father of 533 children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: As that art imitating life, that delivery man from that Touchstones Pictures. My next guest, in real life, not on film, he has
fathered 25 children, going on 26, donating his sperm for free. Back with Sara, Loni, Judy and Jon. And joining us, Ari Nagel. He is the man in
question here. Ari, thanks for joining us.
ARI NAGEL, FATHERED 25 CHILDREN AND COUNTING: Sure. What is up, doc?
PINSKY: You began donating your sperm to women for free 12 years ago. How did this whole get started?
NAGEL: No, not actually. Twelve years ago, I had a child, that was in contacts and relationship. My donations started around eight years ago.
PINSKY: And, how do these donations come about? What are they like? How do people find you?
NAGEL: I could show you the video, how do they come about? Oh, how did they find me --
PINSKY: Well, hold on, hold on. By saying it that way implies that you are having intercourse with some of these women.
NAGEL: Some of them I do, do it natural, and some of them I did it through the mail. Some of them, I did it on a cup, and some of them I did
it in a clinic.
PINSKY: Are you serious there is like a video that people can sort of find --
NAGEL: No, I am kidding. You were asking me -- no, no.
PINSKY: All right. Now, you do not go through a sperm bank, right? Just sort of the maintenance of this sperm -- the health or whatnot is
going to be an issue, and also it is got to be an issue that you trust these women not to come after you for child support.
NAGEL: Right. I never donated to a sperm bank. These are women that reached out to me, and we did it amongst ourselves. Sometimes when it did
not work amongst ourselves, they ended up going to a fertility clinic to help it along, but usually it was just between the two of us.
PINSKY: But does it create any legal problems for you, that you are not going through a normal structure?
NAGEL: Yes, certainly. Some of the women -- all of the women agree not to sue my initially prior, but some of them change their mind.
PINSKY: Sara, go ahead.
NAGEL: I am sorry. Agreed how? Orally? I mean, no pun intended, but how do they agree?
NAGEL: Yes. Basically, there is really no contract that I can create. It is the child`s right to sue, so in the end, even if I did get a
paper document -- it was all verbal agreements.
AZARI: But why not -- my understanding is that you have your own family. You have three kids, right?
NAGEL: Yes.
AZARI: OK. And that your paychecks are garnished because at least five of these women have come after you, and actually successfully been
able to collect child support. So why not change your way of doing this and go through sperm bank where you can be protected and have an
insemination contract that actually holds up in court?
That is what is sort of perplexing to me, because I think it is really generous of you to help these women out who cannot afford to
purchase the sperm from a sperm bank, but at the same time, it is working to your detriment, so what is in it for you?
NAGEL: You know, all good things have a price, and that is true. There is a detriment, but what good is in it for me? I mean I was able to
help grow 22 beautiful families, and the children are all healthy and doing great --
PINSKY: Do you have relationships --
NAGEL: -- with a lot of love going around. And I have relationships with many of them --
PINSKY: With the children --
NAGEL: All of them, I have not met. Absolutely, sometimes I take them for the weekend. Sometimes, just birthdays and graduations. But the
mothers, the families that want me involved, I will be involved issue and some of them have their own family unit and do not want me in the picture.
It is really up to them.
PINSKY: OK. Now, Judy, you and I are trying to crack this case or trying to understand what the motivation is, what were they talking about
here. It is hard to -- I did not really get a clear answer to why not go to a sperm bank, right?
HO: Yes.
NAGEL: Well, you know, there is lots of issues. Firstly, when you go to a sperm bank, first of all, a lot of times they go bankrupt and they
end up taking tons of loans and then when they have the child, they do not really even have the money to support the child. Of course, I am doing it
for free.
So, there is certainly a financial incentive to not go to a sperm bank. I was talking to a woman last week, and she went to a sperm bank
first. A lot of times, they will try that first, and then once they deplete their savings, that is when they will come to me. And they said,
they only showed her a baby picture of the sperm that she bought, and if she wanted to see a picture of the it was another $100.
PINSKY: You are giving me all these reasons why a woman would not like the sperm bank, we are trying to figure out why you would not want to
go to the sperm bank to protect yourself. And if it is just to have sex with lots of women, I think there are easier ways to do that too and not
have a bunch of children.
NAGEL: Absolutely. I get a lot out of it, going to a sperm bank, I never really meet who I am donating to, and they never meet me. Here I am
involved, and I got to experience a lot of the joy of being a father and I really expanded and helped grow a lot of families, but a lot of times that
I made some great friends and met some wonderful people and they are not just friends --
[19:50:00] PINSKY: Judy, I am still having trouble.
HO: Yes. Ari, I have a question for you. Why did you start doing this in the first place? I mean, was this a conscious decision that you
decided that, this was something that you wanted?
You wanted relationships with multiple children that were connected to you? I mean did you grow up in a small family, a big family? I want to
know more about you and why did you decided to do this in the first place?
PINSKY: And then once it happened then you liked it, you decided, I will do more of this?
HO: Yes.
NAGEL: That is basically how it happened. The first two cases were typical of a lot of them. There was a lesbian couple that needed help.
PINSKY: And they approached you in the street? They said, "Hey, would you mind?"
HO: Were you friends?
NAGEL: Yes. Well, a lot, some of them I was friends with. And, some of them, you know, I met through social media or I was referred or they
heard what I did. So it varied.
PINSKY: Hang on. Jon? Jon, go ahead.
LEIBERMAN: Well, just two quick questions. One is, do you view this as a public service almost?
NAGEL: Public? It is a private service. I do not know how public it is.
PINSKY: A public benefit. But, go ahead.
NAGEL: If you want to see the benefits, you blurred out the children`s faces. But if you showed them, and you just see so much joy and
love going on in the families. I got a lot of benefit out of that.
PINSKY: Jon.
LEIBERMAN: Do you worry about the day when you do not have any more healthy sperm?
AZARI: But what does your wife think about this? You are not having sex with her. You are sleeping in different bedrooms. You are going out
and having intercourse with some of these donees that you are giving your sperm to. And you are taking away from the bread and butt that you are
putting on your family`s table because your wages are being garnished. So, what does your wife think?
NAGEL: Yes, certainly. Unfortunately, I really owe her an apology. She really wanted to remain private and I did not do a very good job
keeping her private. So, she just did not want me to discuss anything about her. If there is one thing I learned about 22 baby mamas, that you
have to be a good listener.
PINSKY: Wait. Was that the apology she gets or you have apologized to her?
HO: Yes.
NAGEL: Certainly, of course. I apologized for having her name being released in the media. That is what she is really upset about. She does
not want me to talk about her. And a lot of the couples, I have to do a better job to make sure that they remained private. Some of them are
transgender couples and their job does not even know that they are transgender or are heterosexual couples. The fraternal parents do not know
--
HO: But Ari --
PINSKY: Judy -- Ari, I got to take a break. I am sorry. I appreciate that.
But, next up, I actually have a lesbian couple, who had a son. Thanks to Ari. They are here and they say thank you. They will tell us
how the sperm changed their life for the better. We are back after this
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I am back with Sara, Loni, Judy, and Jon and Ari. And, joining us by phone, Liz and Leigh Kraidman, I believe. Ari was the sperm
donor for their son, Elijah. Lee, how did you guys meet, Ari. How did this happen?
LEIGH KRAIDMAN, BABY FATHERED BY SPERM DONOR: Well, basically, my wife and I wanted to start a family. And, we discussed all the different
ways that we could do that. Obviously, through a sperm bank, and we just learned kind of through our research that there are people like Ari out
there, who like to be a donor, unknown donor. It is like a statistical term for it.
PINSKY: Unknown donor. OK. Tell me more.
LEIGH KRAIDMAN: And we met him through an internet kind of site where you could, a connecting site. And we kind of got in touch with him.
PINSKY: So, I want to break this down. So, there is a site where you can go to meet these kinds of guys, right?
LEIGH KRAIDMAN: Well, there was at least when we did it four years ago. I am not sure now if it is still up, but --
PINSKY: What would have happened with that?
LEIGH KRAIDMAN: I do not know. I do not know if there was any sort of legal things or anything that have happened. I am pretty sure it is
still up from my knowledge. That is how we --
PINSKY: And then you found Ari. He said he uses the mail sometimes to send his products? How this procedure go?
LEIGH KRAIDMAN: I believe he did mention that he has done that it way, I think for women who live out of state.
PINSKY: And what did you guys do? How did it go for you?
LEIGH KRAIDMAN: Well, we live in New York as well. Ari lives in New York. So --
PINSKY: Take me through it. I only got a minute left. How did it go? What happened.
LEIGH KRAIDMAN: So we met Ari after speaking to him for a while. We met him. We had dinner, we spoke about what we wanted, what he wanted.
And then from there, we waited until we were ready and we scheduled a time. We met up with him a couple separate times and after about the third time
we were lucky enough to get pregnant with Elijah.
PINSKY: And how did that procedure go? What was the procedure for insemination?
LEIGH KRAIDMAN: Well, we met. He did his sample. He gave it to us and then we did the insemination privately and that was it.
PINSKY: OK. Got it. And Ari, my understanding is that you have had a lot of bizarre circumstances for this procedure. Some of it even like in
bathrooms at Target or something, right?
NAGEL: Well, I have 22 children, Drew. And 21 of them were conceived either in a bedroom or a fertility clinic. There was one that was
conceived in a bathroom.
PINSKY: And a lot of them are gay couples who are looking for a sperm donor? Or is it run the spectrum?
NAGEL: Well, it is mixed. A lot of single women and their biological clock is ticking and they do not want to involve a guy. They want to do it
on their own. It is mixed. And, some are heterosexual couples, all the above.
PINSKY: I get you. Very interesting and I am out of time. But respectfully, you understand why we are so confused about your motivation.
It is costing you money. It is affecting your children. Your children are going to have 25 half siblings out there. It is affecting your
relationship with your wife.
NAGEL: You know, a lot of siblings get together. They do play dates.
PINSKY: There is more to dig from that. I have to get more into this.
NAGEL: If you really need to see my motivation, look at that the picture of Elijah and how he cute he is and how wonderful he is turning out
--
PINSKY: Fair enough. We got to leave it right there. Nancy Grace is up next.
[20:00:00]
END
