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Dr. Drew

The Mystery Into The Disappearance of Little DeOrr Kunz Deepens; Teen Texter Encourages Boyfriend to Suicide; Teacher Forces Four-Year-Old to Eat Hot Sauce. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired July 05, 2016 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Little DeOrr Kunz vanished July 10th. His family had been camping trip in a remote Idaho campsite. At first they say

the toddler wandered off.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How long has e been missing?

JESSICA MITCHELL, DEORR KUNZ MOTHER: About an hour.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An hour?

MITCHELL: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here`s the mystery. What happened in that hour? The parents say they thought his great grandfather was watching him. And the

great grandfather thought his parents had him. Now, investigators are calling the parents suspects.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LISA BLOOM, HOST: Good evening. I`m Lisa Bloom sitting in for Dr. Drew.

Tonight, the mystery into the disappearance of little DeOrr Kunz deepens. Sunday, we`ll mark one year since the toddler vanished during a family

camping trip in Idaho.

His parents, both named as suspects now, say the boy was being watched by his great grandfather, but the great grandfather apparently believed DeOrr

was being watched by them.

Joining me tonight, Mark Eiglarsh, Criminal Defense Attorney, speaktomark.com, Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist and professor at Pepperdine

University, and Yodit Tewolde, attorney and former prosecutor.

Mark Eiglarsh, let me start with you. DeOrr`s grandmother says her daughter is innocent. And she told "People" magazine that she thinks the

boy might have been snatched, get this, by mountain people who are living off the grid. Are you buying that defense?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If by mountain people she means space aliens, that`s a possibility as well. Look, we`re all speculating at

this point.

What I say to you, Lisa, is if there`s no physical evidence at all showing that the child was there or not there, if there`s no DNA evidence anywhere,

I suggest you change the premise. Was the child even there with them at the campsite? No evidence to suggest he was. I wonder.

BLOOM: Well, there might be a smidge. We`re going to get to that in a minute so hold that thought, Mark Eiglarsh.

I want to add this point in, too. At the end of last month, the mom, Jessica, she announced on Facebook that she and DeOrr`s father had split.

OK. But, she married a man that she had met just six weeks prior.

So somehow during this entire year that her 2-year-old has been missing and never found and the investigation inconclusive and she`s a suspect, they

get divorced. I understand that. But then she meets somebody else, she falls in love and she gets married.

So, Judy, is that suspicious behavior? Or is that something typical maybe in the face of grief?

JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Sometimes in the face of grief you actually do things that are very surprising to other people. I don`t think

there`s one way to cope with grief. So it`s hard to know. But it does seem like its really impulsive, like, she`s kind of moving on with her life

somewhat easily when she does something like that.

Again, I know that there is not one face of grief. But, despite all of this stuff going on, she`s kind of seemly moved on with her life and kind

of just interested in, you know, taking up with another person and not really interested in fully giving her the time to actually process what`s

happening here.

BLOOM: Yeah. I think it`s suspicious. I think it`s weird as a mom myself, you know, I can think about, like let`s say my kid was missing in a

mall for 10 minutes, they got away. During that 10 minutes, you know, am I going to fall in love with some new person? Am I going to be thinking

about anything except that missing little child, anything at all?

HO: Right.

BLOOM: I mean, I just -- I`m not saying she`s guilty. We don`t know. But I think it`s odd. And four months after baby DeOrr disappeared, the

extended family hired renowned private investigator Phillip Klein and this winter Klein announced that he believed the parents were guilty. That`s

just unheard off for an investigator to do that. Listen to this from KIFI- T.V.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILIP KLEIN, P.I. HIRED, FIRED BY FAMILY: I`ll look you straight in the eyes and I will tell you, she knows where that body is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Phillip Kline claims that you confessed to knowing where baby DeOrr is and that you won`t go any further than that. Is that

true?

MITCHELL: Absolutely not. No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLOOM: All right. There`s her denial on camera. Yodit, what do you make of that?

YODIT TEWOLDE, ATTORNEY: I mean, it`s just so odd, especially when the parents said, "Hey, I left the kid with the grandfather and the grandfather

is saying otherwise." And those two didn`t communicate. The investigator made it clear that these parents -- actually the four adults are being less

than truthful. It`s just so odd.

But, you know what? Grief looks different. We don`t know how parents are supposed to look or act or what is perceived as normal when you have a

missing child. But, absent any DNA, just like Mark said, or any -- finding the child. I mean, we don`t know what happened to this child. And if no

one comes forward with any information this case is just going to grow colder and colder and colder.

BLOOM: Yeah, I think you`re right. You know, none of us really does know what we would do in this situation, God forbid if our child was missing.

And so we do have to be careful about coming up with, well, I would have done it this way or I would have done it that way.

Here`s somebody who`s got some answers to a lot of the questions in this case, Sheriff Lynn Bowerman from Lemhi County, Idaho. Thank you so much

for joining us today.

SHERIFF LYNN BOWERMAN, LEMHI COUNTY, IDAHO: You`re welcome.

BLOOM: Sheriff, thank you so much. What do you believe happened to baby DeOrr? We`ve all been, you know, sort of puzzling over this, trying to put

the pieces together. Was it a murder? Was it an accident? How do you figure this one out?

BOWERMAN: Well, I`m moving more and more towards it being a homicide, strictly because we`ve ruled out the abduction. We`ve ruled out wild

animals. And just your general thought tells you that if there was an accident, there`s no reason not to come forward, state the facts, let us

look at little DeOrr and say, "Yeah, we agree that`s what happened." And we can move on with our lives.

But, none of those things have happened. So, the fact that we have no credible witness at this time that can clearly state he was at the scene,

not only am I -- not believing he was ever there, but I`m believing that we have a homicide.

BLOOM: OK, so thank you so much for that, Sheriff. I was in Idaho less than a year ago, absolutely beautiful place, beautiful rural mountainous

place.

Let`s talk about animals for a moment, because you`re right. I think we do have to rule that out, because there`s always a possibility that little

DeOrr wandered off for a moment, maybe a bear or some other animal could have taken him. How can you rule that out?

BOWERMAN: Well, the problem is the family painted a picture of this little boy wearing cowboy boots that could not even walk in them without walking

out of them. If a wild animal would have snatched that child, or even an adult would have snatched that child, we would have found those boots.

There`s no doubt in my mind.

BLOOM: Because they were three sizes too big, right?

BOWERMAN: Yes. We scoured that area with an excess of 20 K-9, including my two dogs who have always found every missing person in my county. And

we found absolutely nothing.

BLOON: OK, so Sheriff, last question. There were four adults there, mom, dad, great grandpa, great grandpa`s friend. Would they have all had to be

in on it for this to be a homicide?

BOWERMAN: Well, yeah. I believe. So, you`ve got two people who have issues on their mental issues, one being Alzheimer`s type issue, the other

one being bi-polar. And so, I think it would be very easy to get them involved in a cover up of a crime.

BLOOM: Wow, all right. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This is a case that`s really starting to draw a lot of attention. And I think some

people are still holding out hope that maybe baby DeOrr still might be found.

Next, the private eye who suspects the parents of something sinister is here and later, the suicide teen texter. Did a girl use social media to

encourage her boyfriend to kill himself? We have the texts back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you murder your son?

VERNAL KUNZ, DEORR KUNZ FATHER: Absolutely not.

MITCHELL: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tears stream down the faces of a mother and father, accused of lying about their son`s disappearance. Jessica Mitchell and

Vernal Kunz say July 10th is the last day they saw their son. Sherriff Lynn Bowerman named the parent suspect in January. He believes the two

know more about what happen to DeOrr Kunz Jr.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re saying you have nothing to do with his disappearance?

KUNZ: No. He was left with a trusted adult. When I come back my son was gone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLOOM: Investigators are trying to get to the bottom of the mysterious disappearance of baby DeOrr Kunz. He was just two years old when he

vanished on a family camping trip in Idaho last year. I`m Lisa Bloom of the Bloom Firm and Abo.com and I`m sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight.

And we`re back with Mark, Judy and Yodit. Joining us now, Allen Browning, Attorney for DeOrr`s parents, Jessica and Vernal.

Mr. Brown, thank you so much for joining us. So you just heard it, the Sheriff says it`s homicide. Homicide is a human being killing another

human being. Your reaction.

ALLEN BROWNING, ATTORNEY FOR DEORR KUNZ PARENTS: False. At least -- here`s what I would have to say about that. The Sheriff said a number of

things. He said that he thought there was some kind of a conspiracy between those four people, which is absolutely bizarre.

Here`s what I`ll tell you. There were three adults up there that were family members. There was Jessica and her grandfather, and there was

DeOrr`s father -- DeOrr Sr. And there`s also this fellow, Isaac, who is bi-polar and he`s got a significant criminal history.

The three people with the family connection, one person without, I don`t -- my clients didn`t even know this guy Isaac until they got up to the

campground. I`ll tell you that the child was there at the campground. Isaac appears to be the last person to see that child alive.

BLOOM: OK. So that sounds like your theory. I just want to say that CNN cannot confirm that Isaac has any kind of mental health history, but that`s

your statement.

I want to ask you about representing both parents in this. You and I are both attorneys. We know sometimes we have conflicts, especially if two

people are suspects in a murder. These two used to be married, now they`re divorced, she got remarried very quickly. Do you think you have a conflict

in representing both of them going forward?

BROWNING: First let me correct you. These people were not married. These people were engaged.

BLOOM: OK.

BROWNING: Jessica had been married several years ago to another man. They has two children by that man but she was not married to DeOrr.

BLOOM: But is it possible that one of them wants to accuse the other but they can`t because you`re representing both of them?

BROWNING: Well, the reason I`m representing both of them is both of them have waived a potential conflict and both of them -- they`ve been told me

that they were together when the child went missing.

BLOOM: OK. And I also wanted to ask you about suing the private investigator. That`s an unusual move. Why are you doing that?

BROWNING: Breached contract and the slander and fraud.

BLOOM: OK. You want to elaborate? What did he do that was slanderous and fraudulent?

BROWNING: Well, one at a time. First he was hired by DeOrr Jr.`s grandfather to find the child and as part of the contract, he`s to share

his information with no one except Dennis Kunz, the grandfather and myself, Dennis`s attorney. That`s in the contract.

And Klein wrote the contract and Dennis agreed to it. And instead he goes up and he goes out to promote himself. And this is a regular pattern with

Mr. Klein.

BLOOM: OK.

BROWNING: Similar gets involved in cases like this he goes out and makes public statements to promote himself. Now, in addition to that, he had no

business making -- make any public statements, whatsoever.

BLOOM: OK. Well, Mr. Browning, we don`t have -- I`m going to have to cut you off there because we only have a little bit of time and I have some

others to get to.

So, Allen Browning, you are the attorney for the two suspects in this case, the parents of DeOrr Kunz and I thank you so much for joining us today.

I want to turn now to Phillip Klein and that is the private investigator that Mr. Browning was just talking about. He was hired by Deorr`s paternal

grandfather.

So, Mr. Klein, you just heard the allegations made against to you. Slander, fraud, what do you have to say in your defense?

KLEIN: Well, first of all, the allegations are absolutely silly. You know, we`re part of child rescue network. We do over 900 of these cases in

the last 10 years. We have a success rate of about 85 percent.

Mr. Browning is just doing what lawyers do, trying to be a good lawyer and trying to make a boogeyman out there. I`m not the boogeyman. Basically

what we did ...

EIGLARSH: Well, I have a question.

BLOOM: Hold on just a second. Mr. Klein, go ahead.

KLEIN: We came in cold to this case. We didn`t know the police or the FBI, their investigation, we didn`t know the family. We didn`t know

anybody. We started this investigation off from ground zero.

Once we started off from ground zero, we began to develop our information. Once we developed our information we did go meet with law enforcement and

the Federal Bureau of Investigation. We laid our case out and they confided in us and laid their case out.

BLOOM: OK, so Mr. Klein, just to get to the point because we only have limited time.

KLEIN: Sure.

BLOOM: The bottom line is you interviewed everyone. You`ve looked at all the evidence. You`ve done an investigation. What do you think happened

here?

KLEIN: What I think happened was, I think we have the child that possibly -- and I`m going to say that word possibly because we don`t have anybody

that has seen that child from the night before. We have two family members that have both lied on -- not only their polygraph tests but on their

witness statements.

BLOOM: You`re talking about mom and dad?

KLEIN: We believe what is -- yes, mom and dad have both told us -- now we`re up to six stories on dad and four stories on mom. So basically what

we have is we have two parents that say they brought their child up to this mountain on a camping trip when we don`t have any evidence that child made

it up there on that camping trip.

But let`s go with what they do say. And if they do say they did bring them up there, then we do know something happened up on that mountain, basically

for two reasons. We have blood evidence that was taken by the FBI on the wheel base of a truck and also the bumper of a truck, number one.

And number two, we also have the consistent statement and I think it`s interesting to try to vilify Isaac Renoir based upon supposed mental

history. Mr. Renoir has been the only one that has kept his story straight.

BLOOM: Well, that`s -- so that`s a very interesting point. And Phillip Klein, we`re going to have to leave it right there.

KLEIN: Sure.

BLOOM: Thank you so much for joining us. Mark Eiglarsh, was that you trying to jump in a moment ago?

EIGLARSH: Yes. It was a simple question. I wanted to know whether it was in his contract that he can`t go around publicly stating his findings. I

find this to be kind of inappropriate.

BLOOM: Listen, Mark. Let`s talk about this for a quick second, lawyer to lawyer. I don`t want to get too wonky here. But listen, investigators

normally can`t go out and run around and talk about their investigation when they`re retained by the defense.

But this guy says, "I felt I had a moral obligation to do that. I felt that the parents were the ones responsible here." And by the way, they are

presumed innocent. They have not been convicted. They have not been charged.

EIGLARSH: I`d never hire him. I`d never hire this guy.

BLOOM: OK, we`ll see.

EIGLARSH: I`d never hire him if he turns around and then for his own benefit tells everybody.

BLOOM: OK, you wouldn`t hire him. OK. But, Judy Ho, let me go to the non-lawyer.

HO. Yeah.

BLOOM: The civilian on the panel. I mean, does he have a moral obligation if he thinks the child has, you know, come to a terrible end as a result of

a family murder? Does he have a moral obligation?

HO: Well, yeah. Well, listen, private investigators are not mandated reporters like us psychologists are when we`re treating somebody. But, any

citizen can make a report if they feel so that they`d have to because of an ethical obligation. So he can argue that.

And I think at that point he had already been talking to the police and law enforcement, and perhaps he had already laid out a lot of information that

at that point the beans had already been spilled and maybe he just went with it for other reasons as well. But, I understand why he felt like he

had to say something.

BLOOM: OK, so Yodit let me go to you.

HO: So, maybe not publicly.

BLOOM: Let`s put all this together now. Forget the investigator for just a moment. Let`s put together about what should be the center of this case,

which is 2-year-old DeOrr. What do you think happened at this point? Yodit.

TEWOLDE: Are you talking to me, Lisa?

BLOOM: Yes.

TEWOLDE: Oh, OK. Honestly, this investigator just gave us some more information. I had no idea that there was blood evidence. All that I knew

was that these four individuals brought this kid up to this national forest to have a camping trip. And that`s all that we pretty much knew. Then all

of a sudden this kid disappears and there`s not a trace out there of him. That is all that I knew at this point.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: Hold on, hold on. Philip Klein, back to you. I understand that a cadaver dog made a hit in the camping area, which I understand it means

there was a scent of death in the camping area, true or false?

KLEIN: That is true and I can really speak tonight. We have had three areas that are going to need further excavation. Our cadaver dog comes

from Trace Sargent from Georgia. She is the best dog in the United States of America as far as cadaver scent is concerned. And we do have three

positive hits and three positive areas. And I believe law enforcement will be following up on that this week. We just returned from Idaho this last

week.

BLOOM: Wow. Well, Phillip Klein, thank you so much for joining us. I got to tell you, I believe a dog over a human being, right? You can`t buy him

off.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: They`re not bias. You know, they`re trained. They either have the scent. They track it. They smell it or they don`t, you know. You put a

dog on a witness stand I`m going to believe them every day of the week. Well, that`s just me. I`m an animal lover.

All right, next, a vulnerable teen -- oh, this is a horrible story -- kills himself and now his girlfriend stands trial for encouraging him to do it.

What about the first amendment?

And later, a 4-year-old is punished at school with hot sauce. Who did it? He says his teacher. Back after this.

(COMMERICAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A teenager could spend 20 years in prison because of her friend`s suicide. Prosecutors say Michelle Carter encouraged Conrad

Roy to follow through with his suicide attempt, even when he had second thoughts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t say if you don`t kill yourself I will -- whatever, fill in the blank. So that`s what we -- all she said is, get

back in the truck.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could she have done more to save him? And can she be held accountable for his decision?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLOOM: Wow. I`m Lisa Bloom sitting in for Dr. Drew.

Should a young woman pay the price for her boyfriend`s suicide? Now, they`re both teenagers. And Michelle Carter texted her boyfriend for an

hour while he contemplated turning on a generator and filling his car with carbon monoxide. The next day police found Conrad Roy`s body and thousands

of messages from Michelle encouraging him to take his own life.

I am back with Mark, Judy and Yodit.

So Mark, this is the big defense. Her lawyer says the text messages are free speech protected by the first amendment. Do you buy it?

EIGLARSH: Well, that`s the argument I`d make if I`m representing her. But I`m not. So let`s be, you know, kind of non-biased. And so what I would

say is I don`t think it is.

I think the first amendment gives you wide latitude to engage in outrageous and offensive speech. But where you cross the line is when you engage in

speech that arguably is a criminal act. And I think that her word were a reckless indifference to human life and thus satisfies the statute in

Massachusetts.

BLOOM: Yeah. My take as a practicing lawyer, 30 years, a lot of words constitute crimes. Threats, for example. I`m going to kill you. I`m

going to get you. I mean, that`s a crime. There`s no first amendment defense.

EIGLARSH: Right.

BLOOM: I do a lot of sexual harassment cases, sexual harassment is largely verbal, first amendment, not a defense. I mean I could go on and on fire

in a crowded theater so I think that`s a long, long, long shot, Michelle.

All right, let`s take a look at some of this alleged first amendment stuff, via text messages. Michelle writes, "You just need to do it, Conrad. The

more you push it off the more it will eat at you. You`re ready and prepared. All you have to do is turn the generator on and you will be free

and happy. No more pushing it off. No more waiting." I mean, this is so beyond the pale.

Joining us on the phone, Investigative Journalist Beth Karas from KarasOnCrime.com. So Beth, tell us a little bit more about the background

of their relationship and how Conrad could be swayed by Michelle.

BETH KARAS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, they were dating on and off for a couple of years and they didn`t live in the same town. So a lot of

their relationship was electronic. Interesting that, you know, this is how young kids have relationships today. So it was this electronic, you know,

texting and voice mails and phone conversations.

And he had been treated for mental illness since 2011. He had attempted suicide in 2013 by taking acetaminophen. So he was already psychologically

fragile and she knew it.

[19:30:00] There was evidence that she was aware of that. So, he was vulnerable. And he, you know, toyed with suicide, obviously, and she was

commanding him -- basically he got out of the cab of his truck at one point. And the only reason the police know this is because she texted a

girlfriend after he died explaining how he got out, he was basically chickening out and I ordered him to get back in.

And when she found out the police were looking at her text messages -- or his, rather, his text messages, she had asked him to delete them but he

didn`t. She started to panic and she texted her girlfriend and said, "Oh, oh, I`m in big trouble now, I could go to jail." This is consciousness of,

you know, knowledge that what she did was wrong.

BLOOM: Yeah.

KARAS: So it`s more than just simply from miles away saying you need to do this and put yourself out of your misery. Your family will understand.

I`ll care for them. She knew it was wrong.

BLOOM: Yeah, I think this case is going to boil down to those three words, which if I were the prosecutor, I would put up on a big board in closing

argument, "Get back in." Because whatever she`s going to say about the rest of it, "I was just kidding, I was calling his bluff." I mean, here`s

a young kid, 18 years old, in the car, the carbon monoxide all around him. And he`s saying, "I don`t think I can go through with it. I`m getting out

of the car. Get back in."

So, Judy Ho, Conrad had been treated for mental illness and at one point, he O.D.ed on acetaminophen. What conditions do you think Conrad was

suffering from?

HO: Well, Conrad had a history of major depressive disorder. And his major depressive disorder was quite severe, he had a really long history of

not only suicidal ideas, but actually he had acted on it. And in fact, he had never gotten full treatment. And so he was symptomatic. He has very

low self-esteem, very insecure.

As you mentioned earlier, Lisa, she absolutely knew about it. At some point in June of 2014, their transcripts in the texts showed that she was

still supporting him, asking him to get help. For whatever reason, something changed the week of July 6th and for that entire week, so much of

the texts were all about coercion, manipulation ...

BLOOM: Yeah.

HO: ... getting at his insecurities. And that`s sort of where I feel emotionally she began to manipulate him, knowing what his weaknesses were.

Knowing he`s insecure.

BLOOM: I mean, and if everything that the prosecutors allege is true, I mean, she is really a young sociopath driving this young man to his death.

Her lawyer now says that the teens talked about dying together and that Conrad texted about doing a Romeo and Juliet.

So Judy, let me stay with you, do you think that Michelle perhaps had some mental disorders as well?

HO: I think if Michelle at some point was contemplating this with Conrad, there`s absolutely a naivete and perhaps even some issues on her own. For

a lot of reasons, I think that they still stayed with their relationship even without being in physical proximity. And there must have been

something that attracted them to each other.

And so, for Michelle`s side, she may have also had some insecurities and maybe at some point, she just threw up her hands and just said, "You know

what? I -- if you give up, that is fine because I give up on you." And that`s sort of how she wrote it off.

But, when she really goes back and thinks about her actions, she knows that they were wrong. And this is part of the problem that she had no

recognition of it maybe in the moment, but after the fact when her emotions had sort of stopped boiling over, she realized that she should have never

told him to get back in that truck.

BLOOM: And can we just have like a brief parenting moment here for one second? I`m not blaming these parents at all, because these teens are

older teens. They`re texting. I`m going to assume the parents didn`t know.

But I will tell you as a mom, I always feel that I have the right to take my kid`s phone ...

HO: Yes.

BLOOM: ... and take a look. If you`re under 18, you`re living in my home, guess what, you don`t have the right to privacy. I get to know the

password. I get to check out your phone and your computer and all of your devices. And I get to know what you are doing because it`s my job to

protect you.

HO: Absolutely, Lisa, parental monitoring is everything. Parental monitoring especially ...

BLOOM: It`s critical.

HO: ... if the kids are still in the house. That is what saves them. I always say that they cannot have privacy ...

EIGLARSH: All right, Lisa ...

HO: ... until they`re after (ph) the house.

BLOOM: So, I got to get to break, let me get you in after the break.

And I know you`re going to say kids have the right of privacy. I don`t buy it. We could talk about it after the break. I`m sorry, I just do no

believe that -- OK, well, good.

EIGLARSH: That`s not what I`m going to say.

BLOOM: After the break, I`m going to let you make your point. But I got to get to this now because Michelle did something after Conrad`s suicide

that was truly shocking. And we`re going to try to make some sense of it right back after this break.

And later, is it OK for a teacher to make a student sick for misbehaving? How about forcing hot sauce down his throat if he`s four years old? Back

after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can a teenager be punished for not stopping her friend`s suicide? Prosecutors say Michelle Carter`s text messages

encouraged Conrad Roy to take his own life, but should she be held responsible for his decision?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If she really loved him as she said she did, why didn`t she try to persuade him not to?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Emotional manipulation could be found to be on somebody who`s very, very vulnerable to get them to do what they want them

to do, under a circumstance where they know that the person is likely to listen to them and likely to do it and they know that if they do it,

they`re going to die.

BLOOM: I`m Lisa Bloom sitting in for Dr. Drew. Should a young woman serve time for encouraging her boyfriend to commit suicide?

I`m back with Mark, Judy, Yodit and on the phone is Beth Karas.

OK, take a look at this text that Michelle sent to a friend right after Conrad`s death. She writes, "Like, honestly, I could have stopped it. I

was the one on the phone with him and he got out of the car because the carbon monoxide was working and he got scared. I told him to get back in

get." Get back in. I think those are the three key words.

Yodit, so does her showing remorse help her case when essentially she`s made this confession in writing in a text?

TEWOLDE: I don`t think so. But, look, as disturbing as her text messages were, can we honestly say that but for her text messages, this young man

would not have gone through with the suicide? Because you have a man who`s been this -- a young man who`s been depressed. He`s tried multiple times

to commit suicide.

Is it just solely her text messages? Because I think that we`re kind of getting into a dangerous area here. Because I mean, there`s phrases that

kids use nowadays that they go and say, "Go kill yourself." And they may be talking to someone who actually has thought about that and goes and does

it. There`s actually stories of that where ...

BLOOM: That`s right.

TEWOLDE: ... teenagers have actually gone and killed themselves.

EIGLARSH: Lisa.

BLOOM: Well, you know what, nobody should say that, nobody should ever say, "Go kill yourself."

TEWOLDE: No, absolutely not. But they do.

BLOOM: Mark Eiglarsh, go ahead.

TEWOLDE: But they do.

EIGLARSH: OK. I agree with you 100 percent. She shouldn`t have done it. And I actually think the jury is going to hold her criminally responsible.

So now, let`s get to the bottom line. Judge Bloom and the rest of the panel, I want to know what your bottom line is. You sentence her, you have

anywhere between probation and 30 years in prison. What do you give this teenager for what she did?

BLOOM: Well, you know, she was 17 at the time. I don`t believe sentencing 17-year-olds to life in prison or even 30 years. That may surprise you.

So I would have to look at everything before I made that decision.

EIGLARSH: That`s the obvious. No, no, no, no, no, I want an answer from somebody.

BLOOM: Guess what, I`m the one guest hosting today, Mark Eiglarsh. So, I don`t think you have the (inaudible), also you`re far away in another

studio so forget about it.

Judy Ho, let me go to you on a little bit more serious topic, because this is a very serious case when we`re talking about the suicide of an 18-year-

old, OK?

I`ve had a number of suicides in my family, including my own father. You cannot stop people from committing suicide when they have made up their

mind to do it. And I am loathed to blame family members or friends for failing to stop it. And some of the stuff we just heard in court was, you

know, she could have stopped him, et cetera. We`re not holding people responsible for failing to stop it. That`s entirely different from

encouraging it in the moment, saying, "Get back in." That`s a whole different thing, right?

HO: That`s absolutely a whole different thing. And, Lisa, you`re right. When somebody is that depressed and they make up their minds to kill

themselves, they may do it on their own without having any intervention whatsoever. And there is history of this girl trying to help Conrad

through this. There`s texts and texts and texts saying, "Don`t kill yourself. Get help." That`s what I would do.

At some point, it changed. And it may have just been her own emotionality, getting frustrated with him, trying to call him on his bluff. That`s all

possible. I think the problem here, though is, would he have actually gone through with this particular suicide attempt?

BLOOM: Right.

HO: Was it for the fact that she didn`t say those things?

BLOOM: Right. And Mark Eiglarsh, that`s what we call the but for factor. But for -- I mean, he was getting out of the truck. He had changed his

mind.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

BLOOM: He was going to walk away from the carbon monoxide. She says, "Get back in." He gets back in. And unfortunately, he dies.

How does the defense get around that?

EIGLARSH: Bad facts. And what I do is, after -- well, I try not to go to trial because quite frankly, I don`t think it`s a good case in front of a

jury. I try to work something out with the prosecution.

A 17-year-old girl, I would argue -- just so we`re clear so I don`t get the hate mail. She`s responsible. But what I argue as a defense lawyer is her

brain is not fully formed. She`s a teenager. The portion governing reasoning and judgment not fully formed.

BLOOM: That`s true.

EIGLARSH: Let`s not ruin her life for an isolated incident in an otherwise exemplary life.

BLOOM: And let`s talk about remorse. You know, after Conrad`s death, Michelle organized a softball tournament in his memory. She raised $2,300

for mental health awareness. So, Beth, was she trying to atone for her crime?

KARAS: Maybe she was. And maybe she`s trying to mitigate a potential sentence. I just want to explain what youthful offender is in

Massachusetts. It`s the prosecutor`s discretion whether or not to bring a juvenile ages 14 to 17 up on youthful offender in that category. And

that`s what the supreme judiciary court in Massachusetts, its higher court, had to deal with, whether it was a proper indictment as a youthful

offender.

So you have to show the person is between 14 and 17. She was 17. And then you have to show one of three other things. Either previous Department of

Youth Services commitment, she didn`t have that, committed a certain firearms offense, she didn`t have that, or she committed an offense which

involved the infliction or threat of serious bodily harm. And the court said manslaughter inherently causes serious bodily harm.

Now, she faces either a juvenile sentence until she`s 21 in juvenile detention or an adult sentence up to 20 years or a combination. She could

get juvenile detention until she`s 21 and maybe another year in prison. So ...

BLOOM: OK. So if she`s convicted, we`re going to stay tuned and see what sentence she gets.

Beth Karas, it`s always good to talk to you. Reminds me ...

KARAS: Thank you.

BLOOM: ... of our old court TV days, and great to have covering this case like you always do.

Next, a teacher admits forcing hot sauce on a disobedient 4-year-old student. Are you kidding me? Who`s on her side? We`re back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLOOM: Welcome back. I`m Lisa Bloom sitting in for Dr. Drew. Tonight, a 4-year-old child allegedly forced to eat hot sauce. An Arkansas mom says,

a daycare teacher used it to punish her 4-year-old special needs little boy. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELAINA WHITLEY, SAYS SONE WAS FED HOT SAUCE: When he said, "I thought maybe pop-tarts." And I was like, you know, hot sauce because, I mean, I

didn`t even know he knew the word hot sauce. So I know she had to chute (ph) him, "I`m giving you hot sauce."

And you just don`t expect that, like they`re supposed to be qualified to work with special needs children. And they`re supposed to know, you don`t

give hot sauce. They should at least fire her, I think, just anything, just something. They`ve done nothing at all. I don`t know for a fact if

she still works there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLOOM: So Tanner Whitley receives speech therapy at a special needs daycare and his teacher reportedly forced hot sauce on him as punishment

for striking another child.

Back with Mark, Judy and Yodit. So, Judy, should this teacher still be in the classroom because she is still in there teaching other kids.

HO: Absolutely not, Lisa. This is horrible because this is a special needs place. So, when we talk about special needs, we`re not just talking

about academic special needs. We`re still talking about emotion regulation problems, possible early mental illness. So these teachers who are put in

a place to work on these types of children should absolutely have training, very solid training on how to deal with children acting out. Because that

is a very common thing among special needs children.

And so for her to say, "Well, this is just something we commonly do in our culture", is not enough of an excuse. The liability is not only on her.

It`s also on this Friendship Pediatric Services who is purporting to provide these effective services for children who have needs like this.

BLOOM: Yeah, and let`s be clear, this kid`s special need is, he needs speech therapy. He`s got speech issues. So let`s talk about putting hot

sauce on his tongue. You know, that`s like hitting a kid in the leg when he`s got a broken leg.

Mark Eiglarsh, you know, you and I debate the legal issues on this show all the time. But I also know something about you, which is that you are a

very loving dad.

So let me ask just you a parenting question for a moment, all right. You`ve got a 4-year-old ...

EIGLARSH: Yes.

BLOOM: ... who`s acting out, maybe hitting other kids. What`s the best way to handle it?

EIGLARSH: Well, it`s not using pain, humiliation, anything barbaric. Best way we have found, it`s a failure of the imagination to use those types of

methods. But timeout, speaking to your children, being there, rewarding them with love, I think that this is extremely problematic.

And more so, Lisa, I learned that in a recent study, 35 percent of parents use this type or at least believe that this type of punishment is

acceptable. It`s more widespread than I thought.

BLOOM: That`s not ...

EIGLARSH: That is problematic.

BLOOM: And it`s child abuse. So let me say something, just because maybe our parents did something, you know, it`s our obligation to make our own

decisions when it`s our turn as parents.

And our parents, you know, they did their best with what they knew at the time. But it`s our job to improve upon it. If our parents hit us with a

tree branch or they smacked us or they abused us verbally, or they put hot sauce, it`s time for to us say, "Enough is enough."

And I`ll tell you, as a mom, what I did. First of all, kids need exercise. They need to run around and get their shpilkes out, as my Yiddish-speaking

grandmother would have said. They need to run around, get the energy out. That helps a lot. They need a lot of love and a lot of talking to. And

when all else fails, a timeout. But never, never, never put hot sauce on the mouth of a 4-year-old, I mean, that`s just repulsive. The kid was

throwing up afterwards. I mean, it`s just horrendous.

So next, is this the first time the teacher has done this? Well, find out after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLOOM: I`m Lisa Bloom sitting in for Dr. Drew. And I`m back with Mark, Judy and Yodit.

Now, the director of the daycare told police that the teacher admitted putting hot sauce in this little child`s mouth and said it`s a "common

discipline for children in the teacher`s culture".

So Judy, now, some cultures, sanction 12-year-old child brides, it doesn`t make it right, right?

HO: That`s right. There are some cultural variations in discipline. As you know, Lisa, sometimes there are corporal punishment that is more

acceptable in certain cultures or not.

However, this teacher is going to work at a special needs school. She should have been getting systematic training on the effective strategies.

You and Mark covered several of them already. But, timeouts, effective commands, ways to actually teach the child and role model, good behaviors

without traumatizing them further and causing more mental health issues.

BLOOM: Yeah, and so Judy, let`s talk about that just quickly, the impact on the child`s future behavior. How could this harm him?

HO: This could harm him in a variety of ways, Lisa. One of the things that it can do is force him to act out more, because there is something

called no -- no attention is worse than negative attention.

And so, he`s going to learn that this is a trigger for himself. It will probably compound his mental illness issue, if he has any. And as an

adult, we see that people who have been abused before can sometimes have a history of criminality, issues with failing out of school, not being able

to hold a job. So, the outcome is sort of is it`s a spillover, it`s a plethora of different types of things that could happen.

BLOOM: Yeah. And Yodit, just quickly, this -- well, this is my culture, this is what we do in my culture. Is that a defense?

TEWOLDE: Not at all. I mean, clearly, I would expect the school to have trained her on the appropriate methods in which to discipline a child so

she either, one, didn`t get that training, or two, had a blatant disregard for all the policy and rules.

But no, I mean, you have parents who are charged for doing a lot less than they`re parents. You`re a teacher. These aren`t your kids. These are

students. These are children of other people. You do not have a right to do that.

And so, if she`s charged with a crime, which I hope she is, she caused bodily injury, pain to this kid, which was evident when he was throwing up.

And he was (inaudible).

EIGLARSH: Lisa.

BLOOM: Yeah, take it from me. Take it from me. Here`s some free legal advice, everyone, saying it`s my culture to harm children this way is not

going to be defense. You can have whatever culture you want.

TEWOLDE: Not at all.

BLOOM: We respect that. But we draw a bright clear line at harming children. And that is just not OK.

Well, thank you, Dr. Drew, for letting me guest host tonight. Thank you all at home for watching. And I will see you next time.

Nancy Grace is coming up next.

END