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Dr. Drew
New Details about the Dallas Shooter; Dallas Police Chief Asking Critics to Join the Force; Eyewitness Recounts Horrifying Dallas Shooting. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired July 11, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA ZAMARRIPA, VICTIM`S SISTER: I just can`t wrap my mind around it. It`s just so unreal. I just told him that everybody wants to know about
him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw an officer tell another officer that one officer didn`t make it. And it`s like I`m celebrating my kids ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know what to say to anybody, to make anything better. I didn`t see it coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAN ABRAMS, HLN HOST: Powerful stuff, that last clip of the Dallas shooter`s father is kind of blaze. Hi everyone, I`m Dan Abrams sitting in
for Dr. Drew.
Tonight, who was Dallas police shooter Micah Johnson? Is it worth understanding why he ambushed five police officers? Or are we already
looking for "explanations for what he did?"
Joining us, Derryck Green, conservative speaker and researcher for Project 21, Melina Abdullah, organizer and original member of Black Lives Matter,
she is Department Chair of Pan-African Studies at Cal State L.A, Kevin Ross, judge, America`s Court with Judge Ross and former L.A. County
Prosecutor, and Spirit who is psychotherapist.
Let`s go over what we know. We know this guy was a reservist in the Army, approximately six yeas, seven-month deployment in Afghanistan, his mother
said this to The Blaze.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DELPHINE JOHNSON, MICAH JOHNSON`S MOTHER: The military was not what Micah thought it would be. He was disappointed, very disappointed. But it maybe
that he -- the ideal that he thought of our government, of what he thought the military represented, it just did not live up to his expectations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: All right. Now as Micah Johnson didn`t see any combat. He was discharged and sent home to face sexual harassment charges. They said that
the police in Dallas said they believe this motivation was revenge for the police shootings. But Judge Ross, do we care, should we care why this guy
did what he did?
JUDGE KEVIN ROSS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: No, not at all. I mean, really when it comes down to, is that he took the lives of someone`s sons, someone`s
parents, someone`s cousin. And as someone who`s worked in law enforcement, both as a prosecutor and as a judge, I can tell you. You know, you get to
know these people who take on the position of wearing the blue, and there are some bad apples, and we cannot discount that and so often, what ends up
happening is we sort of try to dismiss the fact that these bad apples really play a role in the overall position that most police officers have.
But the fact of the matter is, he did something that no one can justify, I don`t care what the circumstances.
ABRAMS: And, Spirit, as a therapist, does it bother you that I`m basically saying, I don`t really care why he did this that he did it and I`m sort of
ready to write him off?
SPIRIT, PSYCHOHERAPIST: No, it doesn`t bother me at all because, you know, we have to have the same conversations regardless of what a person looks
like. And that`s what we have to get to in this country.
Unfortunately, though, we don`t do that. And so, people will argue here that if his skin color was different, wouldn`t we want to know about his
mental illness, wouldn`t we want to know about his mental wellness. And so, we have to look at how we`re handling this different and what the
expectation is here, Dan.
ABRAMS: Melina, do you think that that`s the issue, is it really skin color or is it the fact that when someone commits a horrific act, we in the
media tend to start asking, "Oh, why did this person do it?" and we look into their background and we talk about what led them to do it. And across
the board, can`t we say that maybe we spend too much time looking at really horrible people`s motivations?
MELINA ABDULLAH, ORGANIZER, BLACK LIVES MATTER: No, I think it`s really important that we look into motivations. And looking into motivations and
being honest about motivations, are in no way justifying horrific acts. But it helps us to save actually staved off replications of that.
ABRAMS: How? How?
ABDULLAH: Because if we think about, and I don`t want to talk about specifically about the shootings in Dallas, but if we think about any
horrific act, if we think about acts of war, if we think about the Palestinian uprising, it`s really important that we think about what
systems people are rebelling against so that we can begin to prevent those kinds of things from happening into the future.
ABRAMS: But, no. No, no, no. But that is adjust -- you`re basically saying we need to understand why, what is going on in this person`s head,
right? When you bring up the Palestinians, what you`re saying is, there`s a reason, right, why they are so angry, et cetera.
And I guess, I`m saying, I don`t care why he still angry.
ABDULLAH: Then, I think that`s really problematic and that`s very short sided.
ABRAMS: Really? Really.
ABDULLAH: If you want to prevent acts from happening in the future, we have to be willing to understand and say how do we prevent and intervene
rather than just how do we send robots to kill people or use drones to kill people.
ABRAMS: yeah. And my theory is that we just start to veer off into justification land. Burt Derryck Green, what do you make of it?
DERRYCK GREEN, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: I don`t know if this cycle analyzing it is the best way to go about it.
What I would like to see is, start to address the issues and moral terms. He was evil and wrong. You know, I don`t care why he did it. I don`t want
to get to t why he did it. A lot of people have a lot of difficult things going on in these lives and they don`t resort to taking their anger or
their frustration out on innocent people.
So I think, you know, let`s take back to good and evil. I`m not seeing that cycle analyzing or trying to find -- out why he did this on a
psychological level, is a bad thing but let`s remember that it explains in good and evil and this was a very evil act.
ABRAMS: Well, look, if we`re going to dig in to sort of why he does what it is, his Facebook page revealed the infinity for black power
organizations after two black men were shot and killed by cops, one of those groups, the African-American Defense League posted a message with
this passage, "It` is time to visit Louisiana and hold a barbeque. The highlight of the occasion will be to sprinkle Pig`s Blood ".
A friend of Micah Johnson told CNN, he was obsessed with plate of blacks in the United States and that he was a "good black man" with a little bit of
an anger problem.
But, you know, again, you know, it seems to me, Judge, that this is a dangerous road for us to go down. We start to point fingers at Facebook
postings and all oh, look, he was influenced by these guys and so therefore their to blame, right?
I mean, my fear is that we start to go down this road of finger pointing, well, look, this was on his Facebook page and that was on his Facebook
page. It`s a post to say, "This is a bad guy." And do we really need to start blaming the various organizations that he was supportive of?
ROSS: Well, I think, Dan, you`ve mentioned a few points. One, if we look at someone`s posting, they do give you an indication of what you`re about.
I`m very, very conscious of what pages I like, who I say I even like in terms of music or artists because I know that information is being
accumulated.
That said, one of the issues that Micah was dealing with, was this issue of mental health. And when you have this systemic issue of black people males
continuously being shot, whether people believe that it`s a conspiracy or otherwise, if you`re someone that`s struggling with a mental health issue,
and you are a black man seeing this, I at least can understand why there is this sort of controversy about, well, we should be really looking at why he
went off. Because it looks like he was planning this irrespective of what happened in Baton Rouge at Saint Paul.
ABRAMS: This seems to me to go to Melina`s point, though, right? Because the minute, and I ask Spirit, I know you want to get on, I`m going to get
on this. But Melina makes the point, that there is this danger of starting to say, "Oh, well, when it`s a black skin, we`re going to say we`re not
going to look into it. When it`s a white skin, we are going to look."
The bottom line is, it seems to me that it`s dangerous business white or black skin to start to getting into motivations but, Spirit, it seem to me
like you may disagree with me on that.
ROSS: But when do we not to?
SPIRIT: Well, you know, it`s not that I disagree with you about whether or not it should be done, but the fact of the matter is that it is done. And
I can`t tell you, Dan, how many times I`m called to the table when it is a white shooter when it`s someone and they say, "Let`s talk about his past.
Let`s go into every organization that he liked. Let`s delve into every organization that he witnessed., let`s live out the last two weeks of his
life.
ABRAMS: Right.
SPIRIT: We do this across the board and in this instance, we want to jump to good or evil which that is not -- it`s neither or neither in this case.
ABRAMS: Yes. Look, I think you`re right that the bottom line because it`s true. Every time we get a white mass shooter out there, right, what is it
that drove him to kill ...
ROSS: Why? Why?
ABRAMS: No, I agree with you. I think that it`s -- I think we shouldn`t be doing it any of this case and I think we tend to glorify this people.
And so, you know, look, it happens that I`m filling in tonight. If I was hosting the show every night, you`d see me saying everytime white, black,
this is the bottom line. This is what happens.
Let`s take a quick break here. We comeback to the Dallas Police Chief is issuing a call for help asking that the cop`s biggest critics join the
force. And later an eyewitness to event in Dallas and how they will change her and many others forever. Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE CHIEF: We`re asking cops to do too much in this country. We are. We`re just asking them to do too much.
Not enough mental health funding, let the cop handle it. Not enough drug addiction funding, let`s give it to the cops.
Here in Dallas, we`ve got a loose dog problem. Let`s have the cops chase loose dogs. You know, schools fail. Let`s give it to the cops. 70% of
the African-American community is being raised by single women, let`s give it to the cops to solve that, as well.
That`s too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: Micah Johnson`s Thursday night ambush was the deadliest act of terror against law enforcement since 9/11. I`m Dan Abrams, founder
lawnewz.com, in for Dr. Drew.
Back with Derryck Green, Melina Abdullah and Judge Ross, joining us now is Paul Viollis, Security and Terror Analysts. He hosts the Security Brief
which they views in September.
So, Paul, are we indeed asking too much of our police officers?
PAUL VIOLLIS, SECURITY AND TERROR ANALYSTS: No, I don`t think at all. You know, I mean, at the end of the day, Dan, why do we need to look at this,
it`s a very simple fact. We have just over 900,000 law enforcement officers in the United States protecting just over, what, 300 million
people.
At the end of the day, there was a one good cop that`s out there, that whatever stick up for cop that did the wrong thing. And what we`ve seen in
Louisiana clearly is an issue. But that is a small indication of what police do.
Are we holding them to a higher standard, yes. We know, constitutionally that police are held to a higher standard, and they always will be. And
there is a good cop out there that would feel bad about that, that`s why they accept the job. But the people the do the wrong thing, make up by far
of the minority.
ABRAMS: But, Paul, you heard the Dallas Police chief saying, basically, if every societal problem is now being thrown in the cops. I don`t think he
was saying it as an excuse. He wasn`t saying and therefore we can`t do our job. He is saying basically, "Hey, look, you`re just throwing too many
things at us to expect us to be able to do everything." Not fair?
VIOLLIS: No. Listen, at the end of the day what do you expect? Police are the last line of defense that we have in this country. I am not nor
will I ever, Dan, anyone knows me sees that I will never stick up for a cop that does the wrong thing, ever. But at the end of the day, if the vast
minority, we cannot start throwing cops under the bus and we simply cannot allow people to assemble in a manner where they`re shouting and promoting
violence against police.
ABRAMS: Right, but that`s not what I`m asking you about.
(CROSSTALK)
What I`m asking about is exactly what the police chief just said, right? The police chief just basically throwing up his arms and he saying, "Look,
in essence and I`m going to translate this because this isn`t what he said. He said far more eloquently than this. But he is basically saying, "You
know what, I don`t know what else we can do here. We`re being thrown all sorts of stuff that we`re under equipped to deal with."
And what I`m asking you is, is that a fair point because the most important thing for us to do when something like this happen is figure out what can
we to make things better. And it sounds to me like that`s exactly what the Dallas police chief is trying to do here.
VIOLLIS: There are very -- yes. You`re right. There are very simple solutions here and the fact of the matter remains that we have an issue in
this country with respect to police and community. We have not learned since Ferguson and we`re drawing and building walls, not bridges. And the
simple solution is that police and community to go back to what works, not what`s happening right now. Are we asking too much?
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Hang on. Judge, hang on one second. Melina, want to jump in, go ahead.
ABDULLAH: Yeah, yeah. I think that it`s very rare that I say I agree with the chief of police, but he`s absolutely right. We`re expecting police to
do things they are not in their expertise, right?
ABRAMS: Yes.
ABDULLAH: Police shouldn`t be catching dogs. We should be hiring dog catchers to do that. Police shouldn`t be engaging as youth workers. We
should be hiring youth workers to do that. Police shouldn`t be teaching our children, we should be hiring teachers to do that.
And so, I think that we need to -- this conversation leads us into a conversation around a redefinition and reimagining of public safety one
that encompasses, you know, intervention and prevention as a very affective solution to reducing crime and violence.
ABRAMS: I`m sorry, judge, go ahead.
ROSS: He is speaking from a place that he knows well. David Brown Jr., his own son, killed police officers in Texas because he had mental issues.
So when the Dallas chief of police is saying, look, I don`t know we`re the best equipped. In California, one of the issues that comes about is that,
often times, these mental institutions, they just drop people off on the street and then, they`re like, will the police will figure it out.
No, we`ve got to invest more money in that. But if we`re looking at educating young men and mentoring them, that is not the role of police,
that`s the rule of fraternities and organizations and civil right groups and things like that.
ABRAMS: I think that we can all agree then on that and I think bravo to the police chief for making those comments, hard to disagree with a lot of
that. Something I think will, maybe not all agree on, is that I want to read you a quote and this relates to the reaction more specifically to
what`s happening here.
And, Paul, this is what you were talking about. This is from John Ziegler, right, from MediaIte which I`m the founder, doesn`t mean that I support his
views but I`m going to quote from it here. He says, "While it is absurd to blame an entire race of people for that nonsense that a few nutjobs might
spew on social media, the insanely positive reaction voiced by black people and even a few very liberal whites, for the killings was nowhere near an
aberration."
So, Derryck, are people on social media not condemning Micah Johnson enough?
GREEN: I don`t think that they`re condemning him in proportion to what he did. And I think there`s a several reasons for that. I think one of the
over writing reasons for that is this sense of racial solidarity that exists in the black community that you have to support black people no
matter what they say or do or if you disagree with some of the things that they say or do, the criticism of they saying, it has to be minimized.
And so, I think that that this service to the integrity of the black community by not standing up in condemning acts of evil or acts of terror
when they rightly need to be condemned, that gives us more credibility going forward. And so, I think that the eyes of the watching world, when
they see people in social media, they see people in television, on the radio, and they`re hesitant, black people hesitant to condemn what we did,
people start to draw a conclusions and unfortunately that stigma from those conclusions tarnish the entire black community, not just the ones who are
afraid or unwilling to condemn what happened.
ABRAMS: Derryck, that`s within my experience as a prosecutor. I can tell you in the L.A. District Attorney`s Office, the best assignment you can get
as a prosecutor is to be assigned to Compton, California. Why, because those black and brown people have no problem finding folks guilty and
saying, "Lock June bug up (ph)".
What you`re finding is, people also want a sense of understanding right and wrong and where do they fit in, when those murders happened with the two
young men in Baton Rouge and Saint Paul, and then right after you have the situation in Dallas. That`s where folks were like, "OK. I feel for these
young black men. What happened in Dallas is horrible. I am trying to kind of process all of this information because right now I am angry because
these young men keep getting killed but I`m not trying to say that this guy, Micah Johnson, is justified in killing cops.
ABRAMS: But still more -- because I think the point is -- go ahead there.
GREEN: Well, that might happen between some black outside of the public eye but we`re talking on social media. We`re talking about in front of
where everybody can see. This is one of the reason people draw these types of conclusions that we are unwilling or afraid to condemn this guy for what
he did.
ABRAMS: Let me take a quick break here. We`re going to come back on this, another controversial question that`s been throwing around. And is the
Black Lives Matter Movement` Racist? The former major of New York City is now saying yes. And later are we blaming police for everything that goes
wrong in America? We`re back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: When you say Black Lives Matter, that`s inherently racist. Black lives matter, white lives matter, Asian
lives matter, Hispanic lives matter, that`s anti and its racist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: New York City`s former mayor Rudy Giuliani appearing on CBS` Face the Nation and saying that the Black Lives Matter Movement is racist. Here
is more of that controversial interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: A black will die 1 percent or less at the hands of a police and 99 percent at the hands of the civilian, most often another black. So if
you want to deal with this, on the black side, you`ve got to teach your children to be respectful to the police, and you`ve to teach your children
that the real danger to them is not the police, 9,900 out of a thousand times are the black kids who are going to kill them. That`s the way they
are going to die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: I`m Dan Abrams sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight, back with Derryck, Melina, Paul and Spirit.
You know, Spirit, I see you shaking your head. But is there look ...
SPIRIT: I`m having convulsions over here.
ABRAMS: Let assume for a minute, Giuliani is the wrong person to be conveying the message.
SPIRIT: You think, yes.
ABRAMS: All right. So let`s just say that that`s the case. Is there any validity though to his fundamental critique?
SPIRIT: OK. So let me say this because when this dissertation has finished, my PhD will be in a research, methods and evaluation statistics,
OK? The same study that he quoted where he said this whole 93 percent of crime, black on black crime, that`s what it is, right, in the same study
ban, 84 percent of white on white crime, same exact thing which is statistically insignificant.
What does it mean, it means intraracial, violent crime, is just -- if you`re white, you`re likely to be harmed by a white person. If you`re a
black, you`re like be harmed by a black person, that is the reality here.
And so, we have to stop to letting people use statistics and all these other things to hide the racists rhetoric.
ABRAMS: For some reason we like to kill our neighbors but, Derryck Green, what do you make of Giuliani`s fundamental point about Black Lives Matter?
GREEN: Well, he`s right and I think this is the problem. He goes to select more outreach. He is -- statistically speaking, he is correct. We
don`t have enough outrage when blacks kill other blacks at the (inaudible) we are killing ourselves. The grant of the fact that white kill a majority
of whites, that doesn`t do anything. That doesn`t minimize the effect of black casualties by the hands of blacks. It`s just trying to engage in a
more equivalence to be wasted away.
Again, this is why Black Lives Matter and those type of organizations don`t have traction. They don`t have moral authority outside of their
ideological chambers, because we`re not giving the proper amount of attention to those things that are more important. Statically, he`s right.
SPIRIT: Derryck, that`s not true and you know that.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Wait.
SPIRIT: That is not true.
GREEN: Black Lives Matter will setup a protest, a demonstration or whatever one wants to call that, every time a suspect is shot by a white
cop.
SPIRIT: That`s not true either. You know that. You`re being irresponsible.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Wait, wait, hang on everybody. Melina has been patiently waiting, to weigh in on this. So, Melina, go ahead.
ABDULLAH: The one thing that Derryck is right about is we will setup a protest every time someone black is killed by the police because it`s
important. It`s important to recognize what the loss means for those families. It`s important to recognize that.
That said, the statistics that Rudy Giuliani is spewing is false. If you think about what he said he didn`t say 93 percent, he said 99 percent,
which means he is pulling it out of his rear end which is also -- I let you speak -- be quiet.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Hang on. Hang on. Derryck, hang on. Hang on, go ahead, Melina.
ABDULLAH: Right.
ABRAMS: Yup.
ABDULLAH: So I think it`s important that we understand that. We also need to remember who Rudy Giuliani is. He is not an expert on race and racism.
So he needs to step back and let experts handle that part, what constitutes racism. And then, getting to Derryck`s questions, I think that sister
Spirit is absolutely right, the parallels within other communities are there.
But also, we need to recognize that there are structures in place that create violence and crimes within black communities which is what Black
Lives Matter is really all about. It`s about dismantling, oppressive policing systems and about really rethinking, redefining and reimagining
public safety in ways that are healthy for black communities and all communities.
ABRAMS: All right. Before we go to Whoopi Goldberg on this, Paul Viollis, you disagree.
VIOLLIS: Right. Yeah. Let`s just put it this way, Dan. I think there are two ways to look at this.
One, there`s no question that more black people are killed by black people than they are by police. There`s no question. I`m not going to quote 99
percent, 93 percent. That`s a fact. Number two, do I agree with Mayor Giuliani with respect to his definition as Black Lives Matter, as an
organization being racist, no I do not. I will say the reason why is because when we define racism, a racist to someone who truly believes that
their race is superior.
I don`t get that from Black Lives Matter. I think they want a voice. I don`t agree the way they are going about it now by teaming up with the
Black Panthers, that`s my opinion on that. I think there`s nothing bad from that but do look at them as racists. No, I don`t.
ABRAMS: All right. Whoppi Goldberg jumped in to the Black Lives Debate, here`s what she said on "The View" today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHOOPI GOLDBERG, ACTRESS: Telling us, particularly, black folks and particularly black parents that we need to teach our children better
because they`re probably going to be killed by each other is not the way do this, because we already know what we need to say to our children. This
has been going on a very long time. It doesn`t help if you stir the pot, wouldn`t they?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: Spirit, is it possible ...
VIOLLIS: Who is stirring the pot?
ABRAMS: Spirit, is it possible that much of what Giuliani is saying is right but that because it`s coming from him, it`s the wrong messenger with
regard to ...
SPIRIT: No, no, no. It was because the racial undertones were easily understood by everyone. And let me say this, we should all be teaching our
children about respect for law enforcement and respect for authority period. That`s not the problem here and nor did that help Ms. Diamond on
that day. And even after her boyfriend lay there bleeding to death, you still heard her being respectful. "Yes, sir. No, sir. Yes, I`m going
keep my hands right here, sir. No that`s not what happened, sir." So respect for law enforcement did not help her on that day.
And as it relates to Black Lives Matter, let`s say this because so many people are either for or against this particular organization and they
don`t even know what it stands for, Dan. This organization asks for seven key things. We`re talking about the end of poverty in genocide,
incarcerated rates, respect for families, respect for children, most people don`t even know these things.
ABRAMS: But you renown -- the problem with that is, what you can do is site positive things and then the people that don`t like the organization
can cherry pick things from their website and say ...
SPIRIT: No, no, no, very simple. Seven things, Dan, people need to go and educate themselves and say, "This is what this organization stand for."
What don`t you support about these seven things?"
ABRAMS: Well, I tell you, the good response to that be fair is that yes, that`s what they say that their goals are and yet when you go on to the
website, there are other aspects of it with people could say, are not necessarily useful.
Yes, those are the big ones, right? Those are the big highlighted items on the website et cetera. But I don`t think it`s just, you know, quite as
simple as just saying, "These are the seven things they want, therefore this is what they are."
(Crosstalk)
SPIRIT: Do those people know the seven?
ABDULLAH: Right. I think it`s actually even more simple than what Spirit is saying. I think that if we think about the founding of Black Lives
Matter is coming three years ago to oppose state sanction violence against black people. We are essentially a peace organization that wants the state
to stop killing us and wants the police to stop killing us.
VIOLLIS: Well, I`ve got good news, Melina. Apparently, the Dallas police Department wants you. The chief has a message for all who talk about
what`s wrong but do nothing, they say, to fix it, we`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: I believe I saved a lot more black lives than Black Lives Matter. I don`t see what Black Lives Matter is doing for blacks other than
isolating them. All it cares about is the police shootings of blacks, it doesn`t care about the 90 percent of blacks that are killed by other
blacks. That`s just a simple fact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: You thought he was just stirring it up on CBS, nope, New York City`s former Mayor Rudy Giuliani appeared on Fox News this morning, double
down on his statement that the Black Lives Matter Movement is racist. Back with Derryck, Judge Ross and Spirit.
Judge Ross, is there any -- let`s go back to this fundamental critique that Rudy Giuliani is making of the Black Lives Matter Movement. In fact, just
Black Lives Matter, right? He is talking more broadly about the "black community" and what they ought to be doing. Is there any fair criticism
that he is offering that people ought to be thinking about?
ROSS: Dan, I can`t tell you how glad I am that you made that statement. And the reason why he say that is because we need to have the conversation.
The fact of the matter is, Rudy Giuliani had a constituency when he was the U.S. attorney, when he became mayor, so he speaks for a group of
individuals.
Now, the fact of the matter is he hasn`t held office in over 15 years, and so that constituency has went from Rudy Giuliani to Bill de Blasio. And
when you hear Bill de Blasio give the perspective on now being the mayor, he is giving it not only as a politician, but he is also giving it as the
father of a biracial son who looks black. And so, you cannot discount Bill de Blasio`s perspective and simply focus on Giuliani.
Because the fact of the matter is, Giuliani withdrew to be a senate U.S. Senator, he withdrew to be a president, he withdrew from being governor, so
who is he speaking to because I would submit to you that that constituency that he once had is no longer there.
ABRAMS: All right. Well, I know one person he`s speaking to and that`s our next guest, Deray McKesson, civil rights activist. He was arrested
this weekend during a Black Lives Matter protest in Baton Rouge.
Deray, thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it.
DERAY MCKESSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Glad to be here.
ABRAMS: Now, I assume that you`ve heard very clearly what Rudy has been saying. I have been reading your responses to him. You`re not fan of Rudy
Giuliani.
MCKESSON: Yeah. Like I said I think that the people of New York City and the American people in general are better off now that he is no longer a
public servant. I think his statements are embarrassment and a disgrace.
We know that this country is a long legacy of racism and we will never be afraid to talk about that. And the movement is explicitly talking about
the (inaudible) black people has faced at the hands of the state.
Giuliani, again, want to deflect away from talking about the issues of racism and certainly talking about the issues of police accountability.
And we are not afraid to talk about these important issues because they impact so many people`s lives everyday.
ABRAMS: All right. Deray, I want to ask you a question personally because, you know, you, your recent arrest there was on video. You made
sure that it was caught on camera and so to speak, some have accused you of participating in a stunt, what`s your response?
MCKESSON: Yeah. So you can see so clearly on the video is that, the officer told me to (inaudible). I was periscoping it. I was walking
backwards actually, and I was complying with the requests. And then officer snuck up on me from behind. So, you know, it`s clear as day on the
video and I standing by being an unlawful arrest. And I was in jail for 17 hours, there`s so many other people here and I stand by that as well. I
came to Baton Rouge ...
ABRAMS: You were trying to get arrested.
MCKESSON: No, no. I was absolutely not trying to get arrested. I came to Baton Rouge because so people still with us and Saint Louise in August of,
in September and October, and we would stand with them when the time came and I`m here.
Activists from Baton Rouge talk to me and ask me to come support them. So I was here to support and to tell the story and the truth of what was
happening. Drew social media while I was here, I did not come to get arrested. I was arrested because the Baton Rouge Police Department is
engage in unlawful arrest and they were trying to flex that power with the host of protesters here, the other night and last.
ABRAMS: All right. The Dallas police chief has a message for the Black Lives Matter protesters. Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE CHIEF: We`re hiring. We`re hiring. Get out of that protest line and put an application in and we`ll put you in your
neighborhood and we will help you resolve some of the problems you`re protesting about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: Deray, you`re young and fit, are we going to be calling you officer pretty soon?
MCKESSON: So the reality is, I don`t have to be in a profession to have expectations for the profession. So in the same that I never been a, I
don`t playing to be a doctor but I have expectations about my doctor functions, the same with police.
I don`t have to be a police officer to say that the police can function in this country and not kill people and not cause trauma in communities. So
while I appreciate the funny nature of his statement, I think it deflects from the real issue at hands about the police accountability.
ABRAMS: I don`t know. Judge Ross, real quick, I think it`s kind of a good point for him to make.
ROSS: I have always been one to say, "Look, you cannot keep protesting. Somebody has to go to law school, somebody has to take the bar, someone has
to be prosecutor. Someone has to be police officer, someone has to be a judge.
We need Kym Worthy in Detroit as a prosecutor. We need Kamala Harris as the Attorney General in California. We need Loretta Lynch as the U.S.
Attorney. If we don`t have these people in these positions of power, then we can`t effectuate change .
ABRAMS: Yeah.
ROSS: ... both from the inside and the outside. And one of the issues that a lot of black folks have to reconcile with is that sometimes the love
that black police officers get or black prosecutors get isn`t necessarily the best from a standpoint of being appreciated for them and even stepping
into those positions.
ABRAMS: All right. Deray, 15 seconds.
MCKESSON: Yeah. That`s how the chief said, so I agree that we have to be as organized on the inside as we are on the outside. And that`s not the
only strategy. It`s not a strategy to win. But, again, that`s not what the Dallas police chief said.
ABRAMS: All right. Deray, thanks a lot. I Appreciate it.
A witness to the sniper result in Dallas is with us. I want to get to that. The Former Marine as one of the best accounts we forget as to what
really happened there. Right back after this
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABRAMS: I`m Dan Abrams in for Dr. Drew tonight. Let`s go right to CNN`s Ed Lavandera in Dallas. Ed, what`s happening there tonight?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the City of Dallas is preparing for an emotional week. There`s a vigil taking place here tonight at the Dallas
Police Association as scheduled in front of Dallas City Hall. Many people expect to do attend that, perhaps some of the victims` families as well
here at the Dallas Police Headquarters, the vigil continues. People are flocking here to leave underneath that pile of balloons, piles, and
flowers, and candles, and letters, and notes of condolences.
Our two Dallas police cars, this has become kind of a focal point over the last couple of weeks, but even more profound as funerals begin tomorrow.
President Obama arrives here in Dallas tomorrow as well and will speak at a ceremony with Former President George W. Bush as well.
ABRAMS: Ed, thanks very much. Joining us via Skype, an eye witness to that Dallas shooting, Sharay Santora joins us. So, Sharay, thanks a lot
for taking the time. We appreciate.
You`re at the protest when the shooting started. Tell us what you saw.
SHARAY SANTORA, AMBUSH WITNESS: Well, before the shooting started, I saw a lot of love. That`s the reason why my family and I went, was to
participate and to show that we love everyone and that we wanted people to understand that you don`t have to choose a side -- you can just choose the
side of right. And throughout everything that happened, that`s what my family felt. That`s what I felt. It was a lot of love.
ABRAMS: So to be clear, before the shooting, you didn`t see any aggression towards the police or anything of that nature?
SANTORA: No, not at all. There was no aggression toward the police because we felt like the police were marching with us. The police were
holding our hands. They were high-fiving and handshaking. There were hugs going around. They were taking pictures with us. So when everything
started, we didn`t believe it. When they told us there was a shooter, we didn`t believe it because we were happy. The police were happy. We were
all getting along. We were marching and we were chanting, you know, hands up, don`t shoot. We didn`t know what to think. We thought it was
fireworks.
ABRAMS: And you`re with your two kids there. How did they react?
SANTORA: The same way the rest of us act in disbelief. At first, we couldn`t believe it. It wasn`t until there was a man who came running down
to say, run, take cover, there`s an active shooter, and we started to spread out really fairly slowly. It was like a slow drift. And then the
police officers started saying, "Get out of the way. Take cover. There`s an active shooter." And they were running towards the shots being fired
and that`s when the people started to move.
ABRAMS: This is a really important insight. Thank you so much for taking the time. We really appreciate it.
SANTORA: Thank you.
ABRAMS: Next up, my take on what`s been happening with all of this right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABRAMS: I`m Dan Abrams sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight.
Here`s "My Take". Is there any way for us to take a step back and just try to evaluate on a case-by-case basis the facts in each police shooting? The
cases of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile, for example, are both tragedies, no mater how you look at it. But they`re also totally different
and yet somehow they`ve become lumped together by so many. In one case, the police officer decided to pull a driver over, either for a minor
traffic violation or based on a mistake. In another, they`re responding to the calls of a man with a gun. In one, the man may have still been
resisting the police. While in the other, he may have been just reaching for a driver`s license. In one, there`s a videotape of the incident, in
the other, a video of just the aftermath. There are facts that need to be uncovered. Witnesses who need to testify.
Now, not always. When Walter Scott in South Carolina was shot in the back running away, there wasn`t much else to know but the Michael Brown case in
Missouri turned out to be far more complexed than many initially thought. And look at what happened in the Freddie Gray case, two acquittals so far.
Look, there are some bad cops out there who need to be held accountable and there are some unfairly maligned. But, please, let`s protest. Let`s
demand change. Let`s also take the time to examine the evidence before concluding even in the court of public opinion that we have all the answers
in each case.
Judge Ross, why do so many claim to have the answers so quickly?
ROSS: Because this is all touching on our emotions and when it`s all said and done, what we have to focus on is legislation, we`ve got to focus on
pursuing the court system if we need to file lawsuits, we have to start electing more people into office, we have to start having more people of
color in these law enforcement positions.
To me, that is the key. Otherwise, we`re just going to continue to protest and we`re going to keep the same strategies.
ABRAMS: Paul, real quick.
VIOLLIS: Yeah. But the bottom line is, Johnson was a coward and as a result of that, we`re going to bury five cops. Number two, Black Lives
Matter has the opportunity to protest, fine, but you have to take accountability for the fact, you can`t walk around American streets when
you`re going to kill cops. And live in three, police and community have to stop the rhetoric and get rid of the talking heads and start talking to
each other and educate each other, or this is going to get far worse. We can correct it but we need to do it now.
ABRAMS: Spirit, 15 seconds?
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, at the end of the day, the question is how much longer do we protest and how much longer do we keep walking and asking
and pleading until we realize that we`re asking people to walk to a bridge that leads to nowhere? We have to have a different solution. People want
action.
ABRAMS: All right. And, Paul, you didn`t think I was going to get to you, did you? I saw you waiving your finger. You thought you were done.
That`s it for the show.
VIOLLIS: You know what, Dan? I knew you won`t let me down.
ABRAMS: I wasn`t going to let you down.
VIOLLIS: I knew it.
ABRAMS: Thanks for watching. I`ll be back tomorrow. My pal "Nancy Grace" is up next.
END
