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Dr. Drew
Breaking News Report - Plot To Kill Baton Rouge Police Has Been Thwarted. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired July 12, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DAN ABRAMS, "DR. DREW" HOST: I`m Dan Abrams sitting in for Dr. Drew. Before we get to the show, we`ve got breaking news report. A plot to kill
police in Baton Rouge has been thwarted. CNN Don Lemon joins me on the phone with the latest. Don, what have you got?
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: The latest we have is they`re looking for one man - - one 20-year-old man, Dan. They believe he has a handgun. But the latest information, this is unbelievable because it comes in the wake of course of
the shooting in Baton Rouge of Alton Sterling.
Police said on early Saturday morning, they -- there was a burglary at a pawn shop in Baton Rouge where eight guns were stolen. When police got
there, they`ve found someone in the process of stealing that some of those guns. They found one man with two guns on him. All of those guns are
handguns we`re told, but they have arrested three men. So it`s a total of three. So two since say that initial suspect and now they`re looking for a
20-year-old man. They believe has two handguns again. But they said that they were going to use these guns, when they arrested them, Dan, to kill
police officers. They wanted to get ammunition and guns and bullets, they say, to go out and kill Baton Rouge police officers.
Baton Rouge police said they have been under scrutiny, because people have been asking in why they have such a big show and a huge show of force and a
big response anytime if something happen. This is why they say they have on alert because they knew about this plot. And someone leaked it to them.
If was going to leaked to the media media. And it`s out now. They didn`t want to do it but now that it`s out they want people to know about it.
So again, eight guns stolen, six recovered, three young men arrested and 20-year-old that they are looking for, asking him to turn himself in. All
handguns and they said they were looking for bullets to kill Baton Rouge police officers.
ABRAMS: All right, Don, thanks. We`re going to stay on this story. If there are any developments, we`re going to check back in. Thanks a lot.
We appreciate the quick report on that, Don.
This comes in the wake of course of five white cops executed apparently because the sniper wanted to avenge the killings of two black suspects by
police.
Now, we got two big new developments tonight in connection with both of those shootings. The family of Philando Castile and a prominent witness in
Alton sterling case are already looking at lawsuits. Here`s what they`re saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABDULLAH MUFLAHI, STORE OWNER WHERE STERLING WAS SHOT: I heard an officer carrying gun and that`s when right after this, they killed him.
The gun was never visible at any point.
After they had shot him, one of the cops that was involved in the shooting grabbed me and push me toward another officer that came after they called
for back-up and told him to put me in the back of a car.
GLENDA HATCHETT, JUDGE IN PHILANDO CASTILE`S CASE: My son was a humanitarian. The children that he worked with loved him. I used to look
at TV and see other parents under these same circumstances say, wow, I hope that would never happen to me. But it has. In what country that being
honest and telling the truth will get you killed?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: Joining me now is Sara Azari, a criminal attorney. Segun Oduolowu is the Social Commentator and John Cardillo is a Former NYPD Officer.
All right, so the Baton Rouge convenience store honor who witnessed the killing of Alton Sterling is now, get this, suing the city and the police,
of all the people who ought to be suing and angry in connection with this, this guy is suing the police. Sara, you`re not going to tell me you think
he has a good case?
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think he has a decent case because look, compared to the loss of life of Alton Sterling, yeah, his
case is minimal. It`s small, it`s not comparable. But look at in this way, he is been battered, they pushed him. They`ve thrown him in the back
of a cop car for several hours. They transport him to the police headquarters and kept him in detention for even, you know, a bunch more
hours ...
ABRAMS: Yeah ...
AZARI: They didn`t let him go to the bathroom.
ABRAMS: I know.
AZARI: So, you know what, there is a price tag to someone`s liberty.
ABRAMS: I understand, there is a price tag for not being able to go to the bathroom. I do and I understand it`s very high. But the bottom line is
that as a legal matter, and you`re a lawyer, you know this that these cases are very, very hard to win. The idea that the police made a mistake and
the rest, that`s not to justify it.
AZARI: All right because they ...
ABRAMS: But what when we`re talking about -- what are the damages here?
AZARI: Right, that`s the issue. It`s going to turn on the damages. I mean, what did he suffer?
ABRAMS: Right.
AZARI: He -- did he have lost earnings? Did he break something in the course of this assault on him? That`s what ultimately determines whether
this was a good case or a bad case. And I agree with you, it`s not the case of the century.
ABRAMS: Yeah.
AZARI: And I`m -- yeah, I`m surprised this lawyer took this.
ABRAMS: Segun, I`m sorry for butchering your name at the outset. But let me ask you, do you disagree with us here in terms this analysis?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I accept your apology and I disagree with you vehemently. And I`ll tell you why. It`s the incredulous tone
your voice took that this man could feel he had a case against the police force.
It`s the fact that people see disenfranchised with police in general that anything now looks like a taken of their civil liberties. She was thrown
into a police care. She wasn`t allowed to use the bathroom. People -- it`s become open season on cops and the way they treat individuals. So
you`re going to see frivolous lawsuit, you might see -- and my estimation, I think this is a real lawsuit when you read everything that was done to
him. They went into a store, they basically kept him prisoner for no other reason and he didn`t do anything.
AZARI: And his properties?
ABRAMS: I understand that the bottom line is, you know, look the second guessing, every action the police make on this guy, but we`re not even
talking about the real issue. This guy -- anyway John, I`ll get to you in a minute but I got to move on here to the Philando Castile case because
this one is much more interesting to me.
And joining us on the phone is Judge Glenda Hatchett, the attorney representing Philando Castile`s family and we`ll see civil legal matters.
Judge, thanks a lot for joining us, we appreciate it.
HATCHETT: Thank you very much.
ABRAMS: Now, you are likely going to suing Jeronimo Yanez, the Police Department. Yanez of course was the cop who killed Castile. He says he
fired because of Castile`s gun and not because of race.
HATCHETT: Well, let`s start back even before that. Why did he stop him? Was the stop reasonable? Was he stopped because of his race? And so every
step of this really has to be examined because this should not have happened. He has done everything right. This is a law abiding citizen
with a job, member of this community, well respected and yet he even said we have a gun in the car but I have a permit. And even having done all of
that, he loses his life. So for him to say that this was not race related, the question is was he profiled when the stop began because if he hadn`t
been stopped, he`d be alive?
ABRAMS: Let`s talk about that because as you know ...
HATCHETT: OK.
ABRAMS: ... the officer, it appears is on tape on a scanner saying that he`s pulling him over because he believes that he resembles a robbery
suspect, which is not the same as the taillight that we`d initially heard.
HATCHETT: Right.
ABRAMS: Is that -- is your belief that he was pulled over because he resembled in the eyes of this police officer, the suspect?
HATCHETT: Well, what did he have to go on? I have not heard the scanner tape. I don`t know that it has been authenticated. Let`s assume, let`s
assume for a moment that he was pulled over because he resembled, "resembled a suspect who had been involved in an armed robbery." What did
that description say? How descriptive was it? And is that a description that could have fit thousands, you know, hundreds of thousands of black men
in this country?
ABRAMS: And I think you`re ...
HATCHETT: And ...
ABRAMS: ... you`re referring to the fact that they said he had a wide nose, right?
HATCHETT: Right, exactly.
ABRAMS: Yeah. Yup. Yeah.
HATCHETT: And so is that as broad a net as saying a white woman with blond hair. I mean this is ridiculous. And I would tell you, the major -- I
mean, sorry, the governor of Minnesota, who I have met with, along with the family, was very -- is criticized in this state and across the country for
having said had he been white, he would be alive. Perhaps -- I mean it`s just too brought.
ABRAMS: Right.
HATCHETT: And if you think that this is a person who has committed a felony, why didn`t you follow certain protocols to call for backup? Why
didn`t you ask him to step out of the car? I mean, this makes absolutely no sense to me.
ABRAMS: All right. We`re going to take a quick break here. I`d like to ask you if we can, to stick around for a minute.
HATCHETT: Certainly.
ABRAMS: Because I want to play for you a couple of sound bites of the fiancee giving some differing accounts about the gun on that. And I`d like
you to you respond to it. We`re also going to talk about the dramatic move after the WNBA player shows support for black lives matter. And later
driving while black the musician makes an online guide that`s been viewed more than 33 million times. We`ve got a big show coming up in a minute.
YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN, THE DAILY SHARE: I`m Yasmin Vossoughian with the T Mobile, The Daily Share at this hour. Bad news for small SUV`s owners, the
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety tested the headlights on 21 of them and not one got the top rating of Good for performance. And only four were
acceptable including the one on the Honda CR-V. The rest were marginal or poor. Audi Q3 and Buick Encore were for example.
Here is why it`s so important, the institute says, about half of traffic deaths occur at night or during low light hours. The people in Montana
yesterday, they saw snow falling. It must have been hard for them to believe it`s July. This video is out of big sky. Some areas reported
temps in the low 40s. That`s about 40 degrees below average for this time of year.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABRAMS: I`m Dan Abrams sitting in for Dr. Drew. Back to Sara Azari, Segun and John, and Judge Glenda Hatchett who is representing the family of
Philando Castile who was shot and killed in Minnesota.
Judge, I want you to listen to two different accounts ...
HATCHETT: All right.
ABRAMS: ... of what Castile`s fiancee says about him having a gun.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND REYNOLDS, PHILANDO CASTILE`S FIANCEE: He killed my boyfriend. He`s licensed -- he is carry to -- he`s licensed to carry. He was trying
to get out his ID and his wallet out his pocket and he let the officer know that he was -- he had a fire arm and he was reaching for his wallet. And
the officer shot him in his arm.
ABRAMS: Did the gun ever come out?
REYNOLDS: No. Absolutely not. He was never even asked was he armed or anything.
ABRAMS: So the gun, as you said, never came out?
REYNOLDS: Never. It was -- it never came out. It was -- it could never be a threat. He didn`t ask about it. He didn`t know it was on his person.
He came to the car. He said it was a traffic stop for a taillight and that he asked for a license and registration. That was it, that was all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: So Judge Hatchett, in one account on the Facebook live, she is saying, she let the officer -- that he let know about it and on the other
account on ABC, it sounds like she`s saying it wasn`t even mentioned. Are you worried about the inconsistency?
HATCHETT: No, I`m not. In the full interview because I saw that, she then goes on after the clip that you play, she didn`t goes on to say that they
in fact offered the information. She didn`t -- the officer did not ask but they actually volunteered the information. So, no, I`m not worried about
that at all.
ABRAMS: OK. Let me quickly get the panel to weigh in. John, I didn`t get to talk to you earlier. What do you make of this lawsuit?
JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER OFFICER, NYPD: Well, I think the lawsuit -- much more information, Dan, has to come out. But with respect to Judge
Hatchett, let me point out some pertinent information that she is not addressing.
First of all, the audio was released by the St. Anthony Police Department. So, in and of itself it has been validated by that very fact that is
officer Yanez. Most importantly, the officer Yanez pulled the vehicle over not on a 911 description but on surveillance photos that were attached to
be on the look out, bolo flyers. And if you look at the individual in the flying robbing the store and Philando Castile, they look very much alike.
In fact, a responsible police officer wouldn`t have been doing his job had he not been pulled the car over.
And lastly, it`s a common fact that I`ve done it when you pull over a potential felony suspect, you don`t tell them, hey, I`m pulling you over
for something that might land you in jail for 15 years. It`s common to use trickery to say I pulled you over for a taillight or you rolled through
that stop sign to bring the tension level down.
HATCHETT: And then you just start shooting them to death? I mean ...
CARDILLO: Hold on. Hold on, can I finish, please? I didn`t interrupt you. We don`t know what happened. I`m not justifying anything. I`m
talking about the fact pattern of the case.
ABRAMS: All right, Segun ...
CARDILLO: What happened at the moment.
ABRAMS: Segun was shaking his head. Segun, what do you make of it?
ODUOLOWU: I just always find it so amazing that we as black men always seem to fit the description of a murder suspect or a crime suspect or a
robbery suspect.
CARDILLO: Look at the photo.
ODUOLOWU: Right. But again, the description that they give, a wide nose, that could even me. Right, what I would like to ask you, John as a former
cop is, how come that the police don`t seem to be able to see outside the box?
CARDILLO: Right ...
ODUOLOWU: You don`t ever see -- hold on, you don`t ever see me as anything other than this black guy who`s a potential threat. You don`t see I could
be a journalist, you don`t see that I could that surgeon in Dallas who was working on the police officers who were shot and help them live. You only
see the black guy. And you only see those things that you have made me be. We don`t get to live outside your box and we`re dying for it.
CARDILLO: Hold on, that`s not -- Segun, first of all, that`s not true. Second of all, we`re conflating and confusing various bits of info. Don`t
confuse officer Yanez saying, I`m stopping him particularly because of the wide set nose, with the fact that officer Yanez was only using that. He
had a photograph to reconcile against. And if you compare the photograph on the police alert flyer to a photograph of Philando Castile, the two
individuals could be brothers, could be the same person. This was not a general, ambiguous description. We`re focusing on a bit of minutia, a
comment made in a 911 on a radio call between police officer and dispatch. We`re ignoring that he was acting on a very, very -- a specific ...
ODUOLOWU: All right.
CARDILLO: ... photograph that was pretty detailed.
ABRAMS: All right, look ...
ODUOLOWU: Pretty detailed? Wide nosed is not pretty detailed.
CARDILLO: Look ...
HATCHETT: Right.
ABRAMS: And a lot more facts are going to come out but the one thing that`s clear, the family is lucky to have a great attorney like Judge
Hatchett working with them. Judge, thanks a lot for joining us, we really appreciate it.
HATCHETT: Thank you. Thank you very much.
ABRAMS: Turning to the WNBA`s Minnesota Lynx basketball team. Their action prompted four of duty Minneapolis cops to walk off their security
duty jobs. The player wore black lives matter t-shirts during a news conference and the free game warmup.
Joining us Lieutenant Bob Kroll, he is the President of the Police Officer Federation of Minneapolis, Lieutenant Kroll, what happened here?
BOB KROLL, PRESIDENT OF THE POLICE OFFICER FEDERATION OF MINNEAPOLIS: Well, you know, it`s important to note that the officers, they were off
duty. You know, the misconception is that they walked off the job as police officers. They were not working for the city in Minneapolis. It
was a private contract with Target Center and the Lynx.
ABRAMS: Right, but they still walked off?
KROLL: Yes, they did. They had conversation with the coach when they saw the shirts, took exception to it and they had conversation with the coach
and said, you know, they`re hyping things up. We want calm in the community right now. We, you know, like all the other events that have
occurred throughout the country, you need to let the facts play out before you can draw conclusions. And the closest parallel we have with is when
the NFL rams took the field with their hands up, "don`t shoot," in protest over the Michael Brown in Ferguson. And what turn out to happen there was,
that was a false narrative that didn`t actually occur. It simply was not true. And it caused for community on rams, it caused for protests, it
caused for riots, and our officers said, this isn`t helping things. We think they should take those off, because they`re inciting people that with
their press conference and everyone in attendance, we`re trying to have calm in the community here and ...
ABRAMS: Lieutenant, let me ask you this, is there a standard for off-duty police officers in terms of what they are, you know, aren`t allowed to do
or say off duty because they are police officers?
KROLL: Well, they are wearing the Minneapolis police uniform. They are working privately for the employer, in this case the target center and the
Lynx.
ABRAMS: So, if they`re wearing the uniform, I mean, you know, they are been representing, right? I mean, you can say they`re off duty, got the
contract, isn`t it? Whether they`re right or wrong, you know, they`re wearing the uniform.
KROLL: Yes. Yes, but they`re not getting paid by the city. So, what they said, they went and dealt with the coach. And the coach said, well, we had
a lot of conversation about this and we are not taking them off. And at that point the officer got together and they said, well, you know what then
we`re going to leave the field.
ABRAMS: Segun feel -- I feel like Segun is going to break through the TV screen.
ODUOLOWU: Yeah, I mean, Lieutenant, and with all due respect that is possibly one of the worst cases of any types of security conduct I`ve ever
heard. That was a peaceful demonstration. They`re wearing t-shirt and it says, "Change start with us." There was no civil unrest and even if you
want to draw the line that there could be civil unrest, the police walking off the job, walking out of the stadium, that they`re actually on the clerk
...
AZARI: Right. And ...
ODUOLOWU: ... to protect if there was a riot, they just left the scene.
ABRAMS: Hang on. Before we file on, let Lieutenant respond first and then go ahead.
ODUOLOWU: Yeah.
KROLL: OK. Well, the thing is they weren`t on the city clerk. They punched out. Now, there was till security guards that were in the arena
and there were still officers working the area for the city on regular patrol cars, on regular foot beat surrounding that. So if there was a
problem that occurred there, they certainly could have called 911 and had a full response.
ABRAMS: Sara, real quick.
AZARI: Yeah, and I`m not sure if this has to do with avoiding civil unrest. I think it`s that they`re really in legitimate fear of their own
lives given what happened in Dallas with the police officer. I think they`re afraid that something is going to break out and they`re going to be
in danger.
ODUOLOWU: That`s not fair, Sara.
ABRAMS: Segun? Segun, what about the -- but Segun when even when "The black lives matter" website talks about the country`s failed policing
system, can you understand why police officers off duty would say I don`t want to be a party of this?
ODUOLOWU: No, I can`t, because it`s a job that you choose to do. You don`t have to be a police officer. So you have to understand ...
ABRAMS: Let him finish, John. Let him finish.
ODUOLOWU: You have to understand what comes with the job. Listen, I love the police that run towards danger when others would walk away from it.
But those aren`t the same police officers not turning a dime on their fellow officers who are doing wrong.
CARDILLO: All right.
ODUOLOWU: The sport game where they`re wearing t-shirts, asking that change start with us, you got police officers refusing to even have a
conversation by turning their backs and walking out. How do we get together when one side won`t come to the table?
ABRAMS: John, you have 15 seconds.
CARDILLO: Well, 15 but Segun is rambling on indicting cops of being brutal and now corrupt. Look, "Black lives matter," leader, DeRay McKesson tweets
support for Joanne Chesimard, a cop killer asked for her to be free.
ODUOLOWU: But this ...
ABRAMS: Go ahead?
CARDILLO: Why would cops off duty want to support anyone who supports a terror organization?
ABRAMS: Lieutenant, thanks a lot for taking the time. We appreciate it. Next up, the controversial video that tells, black men how to stay alive
during a traffic stop. Its creator is here.
And later, new information on the death of Philando Castile did the court of public opinion find police guilty too soon? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COFFEY ANDERSON, COUNTRY MUSIC SINGER, INSPIRATIONAL SINGER: Hello. I`m a country music singer, inspirational singer. I wanted to take a few minutes
to show you guys a proper protocol of what to do when you get pulled over.
I`m going to give you some simple things that are going to help it be a safer situation for both the police officer and for you as a civilian.
One of the first thing that I do whenever I got pulled off, I wanted to make sure that my car was completely turned off, the radio is all the way
down, and I`m facing forward, both of my hands or here with fingers out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: A controversial video posted to Coffey Anderson`s Facebook page has gotten over 33 million views, thousands of comments.
I`m Dan Abrams setting for Dr. Drew tonight. I`m back with Segun and John and joining us is Spirit, the well-known psychotherapist.
Now, Anderson is been called everything from a hero to an Uncle Tom. He`ll join us in a moment, but first, more of this video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: As the cop is approaching, you have to realize he doesn`t know what`s coming. Follow me, Kenny. But as he`s walking up to the car, if
he`s able to see both of your hands, that`s safer for him. What it does, it takes his adrenaline down, because he knows that as he surveys and see
those multiple people in the car, there`s one person, both hands are here, his safety is already in better hands than what it was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: All right, on the phone now is Coffey Anderson. He is a country music artist. He created that video. Thanks a lot for taking a time. We
appreciate it. I got to ask you the question I think that most people are wondering is, did you make that video specifically for people of color?
ANDERSON: You know, I made the video after seeing the heartbreak of a father to be in the front seat bleeding and dying. It really broke my
heart.
The next morning I called sheriff of Tarrant County, Bill Wayburn. And I said, Bill, this is getting frustrating, my man. I said, I feel we`re
danged if we do, danged if we don`t. Can you give me information on the right -- correct protocol and let me run you through what I do as a
motorist if I get pulled over. I told him my idea. He said that is exactly it, good luck with your video.
I called my buddies and I suggest, tell me your experiences of what you`ve been through as you`ve been pulled over. And it was five of us sat in the
living room. And we went out, got in front of my neighborhood, I got my pickup, I got my buddy, Pat.
He was around the corner washing his truck. And I said I need you to sit down, let`s make this video. Let`s inform people as much as we can. And
the reason why I said that is because when I read Hosea 4:6 it says, "My people perish because of lack of knowledge." And I wanted to inform not on
my fans but some of my cousins that are even more dark-skinned than I am that live in Texas. Because I was worried because I didn`t know what was
coming. But I`ll tell you this video is for everybody (inaudible) or you`re a grandmother or whatever if it helps to anybody, I feel, feel like
the video had done what it was suppose to do.
DAN ABRAMS, SITTING IN FOR DR. DREW: But you did mention the color of the skin. You were saying that some of your cousins, even darker skin and you,
I assume that the five bodies of yours who you`re talking about were all people of color as well, right?
ANDERSON: Some of them were, absolutely.
ABRAMS: Yeah. I mean, so it is -- the reason you know that some have criticized you, right, is because they`ve said, you know, what is this
country music star doing sort of teaching black people how to behave properly for police officers? Is that a fair criticism?
ANDERSON: No, sir. And people are open to criticize or say whatever you want to. That`s the amazingness about the country that we live in. I can
only tell from my perspective because in this country, even though I am biracial, I`m looked at as a man of color, as a black man. So I can only
talk from my experienced, but this video is for everyone. I think it`s a great protocol for anybody that gets stock.
ABRAMS: Look, I kind of think it is, too. Segun, look, you`ve been profile, you`ve talked about it. Do you have a problem with this video?
SEGUN ODOULOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I have a problem that the video has to be made. I think that if we lived in a better society, the fact that he
actually had to make a video, someone of his magnitude, a country music star actually has to make a video showing everybody what you need to do.
But, I find it even more troubling that the only people in the video are black why I would love to see that video if it had been a white person as
the -- basically the crash test dummy that was it. What would have happen then, because I wonder if white people have been exact the same experience
as black people.
I will say this to Coffey, that`s exactly how I react when I get pulled over and I still get weird comments because of my name, et cetera, et
cetera. So, your video is absolutely right, but it doesn`t account for sometimes what the cops say to the motorists that incite the situation.
ABRAMS: Spirit ...
ANDERSON: Absolutely, Segun. I love your point. And to go back to that, what I said in the video a lot was it`s about getting home. And you know
what, sometimes these police that they have bad days and now imagine there are different environments. I grew up in a pretty awful environment and
the country was very sporadic. It wasn`t a lot of people there.
When I`ve come to the city in Los Angeles, I`ve been here to certain neighborhoods around Nickerson Gardens, around Jordan Downs, the police are
a lot more intense. So I couldn`t imagine having to look over my (inaudible) was a day for years at a time. So a lot of times there are
policemen that just have bad attitudes and those I`ll apologize for what you`ve been through and thank you for looking at the heart of why I made
this video. I really appreciate that, Segun. Absolutely.
ODOULOWU: Oh, God bless you.
ABRAMS: Spirit, are you as understanding as Segun of this video?
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, you know, I`m a fan of Mr. Andersons just like everybody else in America, but at the end of the day I was frustrated
when I saw this video and then hearing him talk about it, I`m even more frustrated, because if you have the number to the police officers, then why
wasn`t the call, "Hey, I`m pretty frustrated about what`s going on. How do we stop you from killing us?"
And if you`re making videos, how about let me teach you how to write a letter to your Congressman so that this doesn`t happen. Let me teach you
how to call your local law enforcement office so we can talk about having meetings so that this doesn`t happen. Instead of teaching people how do
you comply and just try to get home because at the end of the day that really may not stop an officer who wants to do exactly what it is that they
intend to do anyway and that is the reality.
ABRAMS: Coffey, do you want to respond to that?
ANDERSON: You know what, her feelings are valid and I`ve heard that from a lot of other people. And what this video has done, it`s opened up the
dialogue for us to have good conversation. People mistake yelling as having bad conversations or people with tears in their eyes as having bad
(inaudible) many times underneath the comments of the video.
And you know what, I would always say that the phone that I have has video on it, so if anybody wants to figure out how to write a letter to their
Congressman, your phone have a cord (ph) just like my camera did. We all have to step up and be our brother`s keeper right now. We really do.
ODOULOWU: Preach (ph), he`s absolutely right.
JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER OFFICER, NYPD: Well, I mean, you know, it`s ...
ABRAMS: Go ahead, John. Go ahead, John.
CARDILLO: Yeah. OK, first of all I think the video is absolutely outstanding, but what Spirit and Segun realized and Mr. Coffey as well is
that we were thought this in the police academy. We were thought this when you`re off duty and no matter what your race. You`re an off-duty cop do
exactly what ...
ABRAMS: John, hang on one second. Let me take a quick break here. I`ll come back with everybody. I want to finish out this conversation, because
I just have enormous respect, even more so talking to him than I did before. For Coffey and the position he`s taking me, et cetera. We`re also
going to talk about rush to judgment. Has the public condemned the recent police shootings without having all the facts? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABRAMS: Dan Abram is filling in for Dr. Drew. I want to finish real quick our conversation with Coffey Anderson and our panel. We got Segun. We got
Spirit. We got John talking about this traffic stop protocol video.
John, I interrupted you a minute ago when you were talking about, you know, you were saying you basically learned this at the police academy anyway.
CARDILLO: Yeah, we did and I carry a firearm daily, Dan. Now, let me add one thing to Coffey`s outstanding video. What I do, despite having I.D.
identifying me as former law enforcement have my hands on the wheel everything he says. I mean, you`re carrying a firearm. Also, I say to the
officer, I have a firearm in my belt or on my waist or in my glove box, how do you want to handle this? Officer, you control the situation, how do you
want to handle that? It`s critical, but this is great advice.
ABRAMS: So, Spirit, why this -- Spirit, what`s wrong with that? What`s wrong with that?
SPIRIT: What`s wrong with that is that he lives in the fantasy land that people who don`t even have firearms are -- have a worse fate than what he`s
talking about. He lives in a privilege where he cannot entertain this conversation because he cannot tell them what the experience is like for so
many people that don`t look like him.
ABRAMS: But that -- but, we`re talking about the video there.
SPIRIT: And I love John, but he is wrong here.
ABRAMS: But, wait, we`re talking about the video.
SPIRIT: He`s not talking about the video. He is talking about his own experienced. When we talked about this video, the sad thing is here is
that when we`re teaching people is the fantasy that if you do A then B will happen. If you just comply you will get home safely and if that were the
case ...
ABRAMS: But, what`s wrong with the video?
SPIRIT: ... we would not have -- it is the message that the video sends unfortunately is the fairy tale, that this will save your life. What they
are teaching is right. It is the de-escalation technique here. You do not get an argument from me on that. But it is a false sense of security that
we have already created that this video only further festers. That is my problem.
ABRAMS: Coffey, final thought. Let me give Coffey a final thought on this. Coffey?
ANDERSON: The final thought is what she is saying she is hearing the video`s message through her own experiences. The video is not saying any
of that but that`s what she`s hearing. Now, listen to what I`m saying right now. What it does, I`m trying to minimize the percentage of
accidents happening, by showing your hands, by complying as much as possible, because at the end of the day, it`s about going home. And if
this video ...
SPIRIT: You just said what I said. De-escalate and comply.
ANDERSON: At the end of the day -- again, but what I`m saying is this is not to have a uniform. At the end of the day, if a dad can go home to his
daughter one more time my video and my mission has been accomplish.
ABRAMS: All right.
SPIRIT: And I love you for that. I hope it does works.
ANDERSON: I hope it works, too. Thank you so much.
ABRAMS: Thanks a lot for taking the time. I really appreciate you coming on the show.
Let`s switch gears here a minute to the Philando Castile case. Of course, this is the man who was shot in Minnesota.
I`m joined now by John Ziegler. He`s a columnist from Mediaite, the site that I own. He`s the host of the John and Leah radio show.
Now, John, you wrote a piece that I have some issues with claiming that the media has bought, "False narrative in the Castile case." Why is this the
media`s fault?
JOHN ZIEGLER, TALK RADIO HOST, COLUMNIST: Well, Dan, first of all we don`t know. No one does what actually did happen in that case and that`s the
point. I believe very strongly this is a classic rush to judgment and we know it for two reasons. First of all, the subject matter and, second of
all, the facts. Some of which you`ve already covered in this show. I believe you`ve already proven in this show that it`s a rush to judgment,
based upon the two different statements from Diamond Reynolds, the girlfriend in the car.
The subject matter, I call it one of the two Rs, race and rape. Whenever race or rape is involved, the news media in the first couple of day has
less credibility than Donald Trump talking about his net worth. They rush the judgment on this story all the time and inevitably much like, hands up
don`t shoot, they are later proven to be wrong and I believe they will be proven to be wrong here as the fact show.
ABRAMS: All right, but look, but the bottom line is you seem upset that the media was even reporting what the fiancee said, right, on the Facebook
video. And you`re saying, "It`s the media`s fault. Of course, it`s the media`s fault that they reported what she said on the Facebook." And why
is that the media`s fault?
ZIEGLER: I don`t have a problem. In fact, I believe that what she said on the Facebook, live broadcast which was rather odd to begin with and
comparing it to what she said on "Good Morning America" proves that this is a rush to judgment. Right here on this program, we have two very different
statements about what the cop allegedly knew about the gun. Why would that be, Dan? The only logical explanation for that is she found out something
new. She found out that the audio proves that the cop believed he was pulling over a armed robbery suspect. That changes everything in this
case.
ABRAMS: Except that, A, you heard Judge Hatchett, the attorney say that there was more in the conversation afterwards. And B, I know you want to
focus so much on this idea. Was it a broken taillight? Or was he a suspect? But the bottom line, it really doesn`t matter that much.
ZIEGLER: It matters every minute. Well, hold on a second. Can we just get out of the fairy tale world and into the real world? What is the more
likely scenario based on what we currently know? We do not know. Let`s wait and find out. I know that is tough to do in a short attention span
world which we now live, especially in the news media. But, here`s what more logical that what we were told. It`s far more logical that this was
either, A, a great misunderstanding that turned into a tragedy or an actual armed robbery suspect panic pull the gun and got shot by a police officer.
ABRAMS: Even though there`s no actual evidence ...
ZIEGLER: Yeah. That makes a hell of a lot more sense that a guy killing the guys simply because he`s black. That makes no sense.
ABRAMS: Hang on. I know everyone wants to get it. I promise, I know -- look at the faces, if we can just show our panelists for one second that
everyone is -- I get it. Give me two seconds to take a quick break. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABRAMS: We`re back with Sara, Segun, Spirit and John Ziegler who wrote a piece blaming the media for creating a false narrative in the Philando
Castile case. And, Spirit, you wanted to respond.
SPIRIT: You know, it just gets to a point where at the end of the day you have to just take care of people`s mental health, you know. And so the
only false narrative that I am concern with as it relates to the media is the media continuing to victimize the victims here.
And so at this point, victims have to just tune out, because what we are doing here, you wouldn`t ask a rape victim to watch her rape over and over.
You wouldn`t watch -- you wouldn`t ask a veteran who saw his soldiers killed in the line of duty to watch that video over and over. But not only
do we play these videos over and over all day long on T.V. but we tell the victims to comply so they don`t become victims.
We blame them and we act like, "Could this really be the case?" What`s more likely? That he was a criminal that pulled out a gun on this officer
or that, "Oh, God forbid, he was a black man that actually got shot for no reason?" Tell that to the other 123 black people who have been killed by
law enforcement this year alone. That is an insult and the idea that your guest could be so flippant as he says it is disgusting. I`m sorry. It`s
just irresponsible and that ...
(CROSSTALK)
ZIEGLER: Spirit, you`re saying that the truth doesn`t matter. You`re saying logic doesn`t matter and the truth doesn`t matter ...
SPIRIT: No, what I`m saying is ...
ZIEGLER: ... we should be more worried about feelings than the truth?
SPIRIT: ... you being so flippant about how you were saying, do you want the answer or do you want to talk over me?
ZIEGLER: I like to talk.
SPIRIT: What I`m saying to you is that you could be so disrespectful to the experienced of millions of Americans in this country and act like,
could that possibly, even be a possibility tells me that you are out of touch and you`re disrespectful.
ZIEGLER: I`m looking for something that makes sense. I`m looking at the facts. I`m looking at something to make sense and I`m looking at the
history of Black Lives Matter and hands up don`t shoot. You lost all your credibility with hands up don`t shoot.
SPIRIT: You`re looking at the history of Black Live Matter, tell me what is this stand for.
ABRAMS: Let me ask you question. John, what is it -- let`s assume that in the previous, the Michael Brown case that there was a wrong narrative.
What does that have to do with what we were talking about here? You`re the guy telling us base it on the facts and then you`re pulling out these old
cases and say, "Well, look, in this case some black people got it wrong, so therefore, in this case they must be wrong, too." I mean, right? Do you
see the problem with that logic?
ZIEGLER: No, no. That is simply part of this overall equation, Dan. We have a situation where the very same people were claiming something under
very similar circumstances something that was flat out false, hands up don`t shoot. I`m looking for -- base on the facts we currently have them
for a scenario that makes sense and the one we`re being told by the same people gave us hands up don`t shoot doesn`t make any sense.
ABRAMS: Segun gets the final thought on this.
SPIRIT: Well, let`s not talk about hands up, don`t shoot here.
ABRAMS: Let me give Segun a final thought on this. Real quick, Segun.
ODOULOWU: Well, you know, I agree with Spirit in the sense that Mr. Ziegler you`re -- even your body language in the way that when Spirit was
talking, you`re laughing and almost mocking what she says is disrespectful and it`s ugly and its part of the issue with what`s going on. The fact
that you can say in the same breath it`s a rush to judgment and then also saying that the idea of a black person being shot because they`re black
doesn`t make any sense shows that you just don`t get it.
ABRAMS: Next -- I want to talk -- coming up next, my take on the significance of the Dallas Police Chief David Brown, being black. Coming
up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: To the ocean covers every mountain high and I`ve got to say always, I`ll be loving you always. And
there`s no greater love that than this, that these five men gave their lives for all of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: I`m Dan Abrams sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight.
My take, as a white man, I have no problem admitting I`m relief that Dallas Police Chief David Brown does not look like me. His become familiar and
many as the face of a grieving community, eloquence, calm, sadness is resonated nationwide. But let`s be clear and let`s be honest. He`s become
even more important on this issue at this time because he`s black. A white police chief using the exact same words would be equally eloquent, but
might not resonate as much right now.
Chief Brown can never be accused of not understanding the pain of the officers, the fight of African-American men. He`s now one of 20 black
police chiefs out of 68 major U.S. cities and this should serve as reminder how important diversity is to help bridge gaps as Chief Brown said, "I`ve
been black a long time, so it`s not much of a bridge for me, but as a white guy, maybe I can`t thoroughly understand what it`s like to be black and yet
I want to support our police departments." Chief Brown makes that easier to do for all of to us, in every color, even in the most tumultuous of
times.
Segun, do you agree with me?
ODOULOWU: I think that what you said when you started off saying it had me question in your sincerity. But, I would just say this. I hope your words
ring true, because though they make a lot of sense, they are painful to hear, you know. If there was a white police chief, would he even get the
opportunity to speak so eloquently? If these, you know, if these were five black cops, would we have this kind of outpouring? We just don`t know and
that`s what so scary in this country right now. The color has gotten everybody so crazy.
ABRAMS: Sara, real quick on this.
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah. I mean, I agree with you John that if she`s a little bit closer to the problem as a black man, but
ultimately, what these police officers are taught in the academy is a systemic bias that it includes the same race on the same race. It`s really
about the race of the victim, of the citizen, not the race of the cop. There`s a lot of this going on with black on black, the Latino on Latino,
so we need to be mindful of that, too. We just happened to see the extreme examples of white cops and minority citizens.
ABRAMS: Real quick, John. Are you troubled though what I said?
CARDILLO: No. I think what you said is fine. I think what Segun said is ridiculous. When black police officer Randolph Holder in New York City was
killed, cops from around the country flowing to pay respects. The community sees blue. Law-abiding people in the police see blue. It`s
ridiculous to say, but I think Chief -- I think the Dallas Chief is a rock star. I love his comment and his faith (ph).
ABRAMS: Spirit?
SPIRIT: I agree. He is a rock star and God bless him. He said something last night which is the Dallas P.D. is hiring. We have to have
representation. I think applications are in order.
ABRAMS: Yeah. Well, I think with a guy like that asking for them, if you get to work for him, I could see the applications flowing in. Look, I
think he`s a great role model and I think it`s important for me to talk this way honestly about my skin color because its part of this discussion
and without discussing it, we`re not going to be able to have an honest conversation.
All right, I`m going to be back tomorrow. We can continue the conversation. Nancy Grace`s show is up next.
END
