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Dr. Drew
New Developments in Case of Alton Sterling, the Black Man Shot and Killed by a White Police Officer in Baton Rouge. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired July 13, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alton Sterling has struggled with police in the past, most recently in May 2009 outside of this convenient store. And in this
2009 case, we have him selling C.Ds fighting with cops all while carrying a gun.
The officer says in his report when he got there, he spotted the suspect who he later identified was Alton Sterling carrying a crate of C.Ds. The
2009 report says, "While wrestling with this subject on the ground, a black semi-auto handgun fell from the subject`s waistband.
Baton Rouge police charge Alton Sterling with possession of marijuana, sound reproduction prohibited, that was for the C.Ds, resisting an officer,
possession of a stolen firearm, and the illegal carrying of a weapon with drugs.
DAN ABRAMS, "DR. DREW" GUEST HOST: Hi everyone, I`m Dan Abrams, in for Dr. Drew tonight. New developments in the case of Alton Sterling, the black
man shot and killed by a white police officer in Baton Rouge.
We have learned he had a long criminal record. And as you`ve just heard was involved in a previous scuffle with police. So the question, what
impact should that have -- will that have on this case?
But first, Sterling`s 15-year-old son, left without a father, offered up some seriously grown up analysis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAMERON STERLING, ALTON STERLING`S SON: My father was a good man. That was a sacrifice to show everyone what has been going on in life. And it
should give everyone a push that everyone should be together, not against each other.
And another thing, the protest, I feel that everyone -- yes, you can protest but I want everyone to protest the right way. Protest in peace,
not guns, not drugs, not alcohol, not violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: Wow, that`s one smart kid.
Lisa Bloom joins us, family law attorney of the Bloom Firm and legal analyst for Awo.com, Joe Hicks, conservative commentator, and via Skype,
Randy Sutton, former lieutenant with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.
Now, the prior skirmish with the cops is among a list of offences dating back to 1996. It includes guilty pleas for burglary, trespassing, weapons
and domestic abuse, battery, you had to register as a sex offender for having sex with a 14-year-old when he was 20. Randy, does any of these
matter when we`ve seen the video tape leading up to Sterling`s death?
RANDY SUTTON, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT, FORMER LIEUTENANT: Sure it does. It matters in a several different ways.
First of all, when it comes down to intent, the criminal history that this individual has, dating way back, which includes violent felonies, reveals
past of his character that he is an individual that cooperates with the police, that is known to go armed and is in fact a violent felon. So, of
course, it plays a role there.
ABRAMS: But if .
SUTTON: Yeah.
ABRAMS: We got the video tape, right, and we`ve seen what happened on the ground, et cetera, you know, doesn`t that tell us almost everything we need
to know regardless of .
SUTTON: No .
ABRAMS: . what his background was, no?
SUTTON: Oh, no, no. No, not at all. The few seconds of video tape that we see shows a coming into the middle of the confrontation. What took
place before that confrontation is vital because it will show what -- when the investigation is done, how they try to take him into custody without
using force first, and then they were forced to use force.
But, what`s really, you don`t see on the video, which is the critical thing, is where his right arm is. You can see that his left arm is pinned
but his right arm, if it`s going for the weapon, and that is apparently what the police officers felt when they use .
ABRAMS: Right.
SUTTON: . the force that they did.
ABRAMS: But, Lisa, let`s -- I agree with Randy`s last point, right, which is where his arm is on the video tape is critical.
LISA BLOOM, BLOOM FIRM FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Right.
ABRAMS: But, I don`t really know how the rest of it factors into, you know, the question -- a question of this particular incident whether the
cops cross the line.
BLOOM: Well, Dan, I represent families in excessive force case and I would object to this coming into court on the grounds that it`s more prejudicial
than probative, meaning, it`s just not relevant to anything. And I object to even talking about it in the court of public opinion because these
police weren`t coming after him for something he did in 1997, or whether he had marijuana in his pocket a couple of years ago, or whether he had a gun
which he was legally entitled to carry. They only have one legal justification to shoot him .
SUTTON: Legally entitled to carry.
BLOOM: . and that is that he`s a danger to himself or others. And that`s what -- we have two video tapes, let`s analyze those from what we can all
see with our own two eyes and certainly does not look like it.
ABRAMS: Well, but, Joe, this is not a case where the cops are just sort of harassing some random dude. I mean, the bottom line is they got a call
about a man with a gun and they`re then responding to it. I mean, that to me is relevant, isn`t it?
JOE HICKS, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Well, it is relevant. And people say there was history there between Alton Sterling and the police. They knew
who this guy was.
[19:05:00]
There was many interactions with the police and him over the years.
Now, I understand Lisa`s point, and in the court of law she may have, you know, a legal ground to stand on in terms of objecting this being
interjected into any lawsuits of that are brewing here. But in the court of public opinion, we got activist that basically are saying the cops
stopped this man and assassinated him for no good reason. So it`s important not that activist will pay any attention because we`ve seen in
the Michael Brown case and others that facts simply no longer matter to the people that are in Black Lives Matter or others.
BLOOM: But you`re conflating two different thing. Nobody`s arguing with the stop. It was fine to stop him based on the call. What we`re arguing
about is the shooting and killing of this man.
ABRAMS: Well, but Lisa, it is relevant to me and the court of public opinion and you bringing up the court of public opinion that he had a
scuffle, very similar to this one, with the police where they reported that he was resisting, et cetera. That is relevant, isn`t it .
BLOOM: Yes, because -- sure and they can restrain him. The question is can they take the man`s life? You know, we don`t have the death penalty
for marijuana possession or gun possession .
SUTTON: The answer to that question is yes .
BLOOM: . or scuffling with police.
SUTTON: . they can take the man`s life. You know, your -- first of all let me .
BLOOM: Only if he`s threatening their lives.
SUTTON: Well, what do say going for a gun. Do you think that`s not threatening? Well, come on, just be real. He`s going for a weapon in his
pocket.
BLOOM: Well you see something that nobody else in America sees, so that`s the problem.
HICKS: But we don`t. We don`t because what we see is the tape starts basically when the scuffle begins. What`s really important here is what
led up to that.
ABRAMS: Right.
HICKS: There was obviously discussion and clearly didn`t walk up and then just tackle the guy. There was conversation, they were clearly giving him
request to get on the ground to do all sorts of things that the police commonly do.
ABRAMS: A lawyer for Sterling`s teenage son said news about Sterling`s criminal history amounted to a character assassination. He challenged the
media and the public to scrutinize the police equally.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
L. CHRIS STEWART, CAMERON STERLING`S LAWYER: Are we getting this unfairness with the backgrounds of these officers? Are people looking into
Salamoni`s background? Are we going to get the same fairness knowing that his history with the police department that his relatives have a deep
connection to the police department? Are they digging into the department just like they`re digging into Alton Sterling?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: Well, Lisa, of course they will. Of course they will. I mean .
BLOOM: Well, they will if they want. But listen, they were all equal or were not. And I think he`s making a very good point. This reminds me of
rape cases where we hear all about the woman`s prior sexual history and not about the man`s.
We haven`t so far heard anything about these police officers. Are there other complaints against him? One thing we know about Alton Sterling, he
raised a pretty terrific son. I think that he should get some credit for that.
SUTTON: Oh, that`s good, that it takes away the fact that he was armed and he`s a felon right?
HICKS: Well let`s look, that`s what people are supposed to do right? Aren`t people supposed to raise this sense, it`s just like an -- a really
odd .
ABRAMS: I don`t .
HICKS: . weird case would have been .
BLOOM: Yeah, and it`s a hard job.
HICKS: . that`s done the right thing vis-a-vis (ph) to his son.
BLOOM: And when they do a good job they get credit for that.
HICKS: But the .
ABRAMS: All right.
HICKS: . problem here is that these activists want the kind of justice that they demand. If not, let`s wait and see what the investigation turns
up.
And you`re right, there may be things in these officers` background that we need to know. Maybe they have many complaints lodged against him.
BLOOM: Like there wasn`t any race case.
HICKS: Let the facts dictate where this case is going.
ABRAMS: Going us now is Joel Porter, attorney for the convenience store owner who witnessed Alton Sterling`s killing.
Joel, thanks a lot for joining us. We appreciate it. So, what is your client claiming at this point as a legal matter?
JOEL PORTER, ABDULLAH MUFLAHI`S ATTORNEY: Well, not only did Mr. Sterling lose his life but my client lost his liberty. Remember my client is an
innocent witness. He was detained for four hours in the back of a hot police car. He was denied the right to go to the bathroom in his building.
Baton Rouge City Police came in and commandeered his entire business.
When he was permitted to go to the bathroom, a Baton Rouge police officer escorted him to the side of the building where he was allowed to go and
relieve himself in the public view. He then was taken down to Baton Rouge City Police where he then with locked behind close door for another two
hours. He was not permitted to call his family, his lawyer or his friends.
ABRAMS: Joel, let`s agree that there was some things that happened that shouldn`t happen. You`re a seasoned attorney, you know .
PORTER: Yes I know.
ABRAMS: . that suing the police department for something like this is almost guaranteed to be a no-win lawsuit. And so, I have to wonder whether
this is a kind of opportunistic effort to use all the sympathy for Alton Sterling for your own client.
PORTER: My client wants those who took his liberty to be held accountable. And to suggest that this is opportunistic just for money, it`s like getting
nothing, how much would you pay for six hours of freedom to be taken from you.
[19:10:00]
ABRAMS: All right, you want to know the .
(OFF-MIC)
ABRAMS: . you want -- my guess, the damages in this case if you were to win will be in a hundreds of dollars at most. That if you ask me the
question, I`m answering it for you.
PORTER: Well, that tells me what kind of lawyer you are.
ABRAMS: OK.
PORTER: Perhaps you didn`t know what kind I am. I can assure you he will not just get some hundreds of dollars.
ABRAMS: Well, I`ll be -- look, I`ll be surprised if he gets hundreds of dollars. Let me be clear. I think you`re going to lose. I think your
case may actually be thrown out. But if he wins hundreds of dollars, I think that that would be a big win for you.
PORTER: Well, time will tell. We will see.
BLOOM: And Dan .
ABRAMS: All right. Yeah, real quick.
BLOOM: . you know, maybe this is about more than money.
ABRAMS: Well then, maybe. Look -- and that`s fair enough. But then, let`s call it what it is, right? Let`s say that this is a case to bring
attention to a cause.
BLOOM: To police abuse .
ABRAMS: Fine, but .
BLOOM: . of an innocent guy.
ABRAMS: Fine, fine. But let`s be -- you know, Lisa, that winning this kind of lawsuit, not the Alton Sterling case, not the Castile case, this
case about a guy who may have been falsely arrested for four hours and couldn`t go the bathroom is not going to be a winning lawsuit.
BLOOM: Well, you know, $100 could be a moral victory for them.
ABRAMS: I got to take break. I got to take a break.
Next up with Philando Castile, the man killed in Minneapolis, stopped by police because he looked like a wanted robbery suspect.
And later, cops in trouble not for their actions on the job but for their words and those words are now being used against them. Coming up.
MELISSA KNOWLES, HLN THE DAILY SHARE CORRESPONDENT: I`m Melissa Knowles with the T Mobile Daily Share at this hour.
The Beer Institute, the industry trade group said Beer Giants Anheuser- Busch, MillerCoors and Heineken USA will start labeling their products with information including calories and carbs. Other smaller companies are
doing it as well.
In total, 81 percent of beer volume in the U.S. will have the new labels by 2020. Some beers, of course, already disclosed the number of calories.
And NASA has shared an amazing time lapse of the moon passing by the Earth. The pictures were taken by a deep space satellite that`s studying Earth`s
climate.
The entire passage of the moon took about four hours. This happened last week but it took NASA several days to put the images together and release
them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND REYNOLDS, PHILANDO CASTILE`S FIANCEE: As my boyfriend Philando went to reach for his identification that he always kept in his right back
side pocket, he begin to let the officer know that he was concealed and carried, he was armed.
As he begin to get his self back comfortable for constantly being axed for identification and registration, the officer let off shots. Not one shot,
not two shots, not three shots, not four shots, but five shots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: That`s Diamond Reynolds, the woman who live streamed the death of her fiance, Philando Castile, who was shot and killed by a cop after being
pulled over, according to his fiancee for buzz to tell it.
I`m Dan Abrams, founder of LawNewz with a z dot com, in for Dr. Drew. Back with Lisa, Joe and Randy.
It turns out that the police officer who pulled Castile over thought he resembled the photo of a guy who robbed a gas station days earlier.
So, those are the pictures that we`ve got up there. Lisa, the fair reason to pull someone over?
BLOOM: Yeah. Again, it`s a fair reason for a stop and to ask questions. It`s certainly not a reason to take someone`s life.
ABRAMS: Right. But I think that one of the narratives, right, that this started with, Joe, was that it was, you know, this guy is pulled over for
broken taillight and then, you know, then immediately this happens. Does it matter that it now seems pretty clear that the reason he pulled him over
was because he believed he resembled this suspect?
HICKS: Dan, hit back to what he should have said initially, it`s clear that broken taillight thing is bogus. People said the taillight was
working after the incident. So, if he thought he was a suspect just say that.
ABRAMS: But why that cops will tell you, Randy will probably tell you when you pull someone over the last thing you want to do is say, "Hey, by the
way, I`m pulling you over for something that I -- you might spend 15 years in prison for." You want to deescalate, right, Randy?
SUTTON: Yeah, exactly. That`s perfectly good police procedure when making a stop of this nature which was just investigated at this point. He didn`t
have a probable cause to make the arrest but it`s called proactive policing. That`s what solves crime.
He had a -- be on the lookout. He had seen the photograph. And he saw an individual that matches the description. So he was doing an investigatory
stop.
And in order to deescalate that, you don`t want to get that possible suspect, who was in an armed robbery, by the way, using a weapon, you don`t
want to give him the intelligence, that information that you have. You want to keep it on the down low until you conduct the investigation.
ABRAMS: Now, a viewer gave T.V. station KARE in Minneapolis audio tape believed to be of the dispatch call with the officers involved in the
shooting.
A male voice, presumably the cop, is heard saying, "I`m going to stop a car, check I.Ds. I have reason to pull it over. The two occupants just
look like people that were involved in a robbery." And he says, "The driver looks more like one of our suspects, just because of the wide-set
nose."
The station says it verified matching license plates, location of the stop, et cetera.
But, Joe, you know, one of the big points in this is a lot of people are saying by describing him as having a wide-set nose, that there`s a level of
profiling there. What do you make of that?
HICKS: Well, listen, you got to really be trying to make a racial angle out of this by pointing that out. I don`t know if the officer could have
seen how wide-set his nose was or not. The real mitigating factor is he thought the guy may have possibly been involved in a robbery and he was
checking it out.
So that, you know, and there`s still a lot of information here that the investigation will pull out that we still need to know. What direction did
he give to this gentleman that were or were not complying with that wound up with him being dead at the end of that stop.
ABRAMS: Because, Lisa, when you watched it, even on the Facebook tape that she made, the cop seems completely freaked out, right? I mean .
BLOOM: She`s calm.
ABRAMS: Well, she is calm. She is calm. Absolutely. No, this is not in any way to suggest she did anything wrong. But the notion that sort of the
cop just kind of pulls him over and then one, two, three, four, five shots just happened, right, I mean, based on even that cop`s demeanor, it seems
there was something, rightly or wrongly, that freaked him out.
BLOOM: Well, that`s the ultimate question though. You know, police can`t just shoot because they`re freaked out. They can`t shoot because they have
an unreasonable fear. They can only shoot if they have a reasonable fear of imminent great bodily injury or death to themselves or others.
[19:20:00]
And what we see on the tape is a police officer immediately after the shooting but seconds after who does seem, as you say, freaked out. I would
use that if I am representing the plaintiff`s family to say, this is a state of mind, he wasn`t acting in a calm frame of mind as he should have
been.
ABRAMS: All right, next up, a former Miss Alabama called the Dallas cop killer a "Martyr." Now she`s feeling the heat and she`s with us live after
the break.
And Black Lives Matter in Minneapolis calling for the disbandment of the Minneapolis Police Department. Coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KALYN JAMES, WPBT "ART LOFT" HOST: I`m dealing with a bit of guilt because I don`t feel sad for them, officers, their lives, and I know that that`s
really not my heart.
[19:25:00]
I value human life and I want to feel sad for them but I can`t help but feeling like the shooter was a martyr.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: Former Miss Alabama and T.V. host Kalyn James now being sharply criticized for comments she made in that Facebook post days after the
Dallas shooting.
I`m Dan Abrams, back with Joe and Randy. And joining us now is Psychotherapist Spirit as well.
And in Miami, we`ve got Kalyn James, the woman who made that video.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to come on. We appreciate it.
I`ve heard you kind of backtracked a little bit on what we heard there. Is it fair to say that you`re sorry about what you said?
JAMES: You know, I don`t really like the word backtrack. And I`ve heard that from a lot of people who watched the video. People are saying, "Oh,
she`s, you know, been suspended from work now. She want`s to backtrack and try to correct things."
It`s not about backtracking because what people witnessed was an individual grappling with conflicting emotions that didn`t align with her values who
has since had a chance to really reconcile those emotions.
People in America are hurting, especially African-Americans who have witnessed violence against African-American men on television. It`s been
brought into our homes and it`s been brought into our hearts and a lot of people are hurting.
So, I was able to get those feelings out, to deal with those feelings and sort them out. And I never said that I don`t care about it. I never said,
you know, anything negative about the officers.
ABRAMS: Well, what you said is .
JAMES: I only said that .
ABRAMS: . you said you don`t .
JAMES: . you know, I`m struggling with my feelings.
ABRAMS: Well, no, no. Well, you also said I don`t feel sad and you said that you viewed him as a martyr. So, you got to be able to understand why
people are really angry at you, no?
JAMES: I do understand. The word "martyr" is what the headlines said and what people have been holding on. And I understand that the use of that
word really triggered people.
Of course, you know, I was very emotional at the time and I can`t -- I could have chosen a different word. I mean, that I definitely don`t agree
with. But, you know, we`re all human. I`m not perfect. And people say things and .
ABRAMS: So you regret to use that word?
JAMES: . that things are taken out of context all the time. So I keep explaining to people that the word -- I wish I had chosen another word. I
just have to take responsibility for the word I used at that time. And I take responsibility for the use of that word.
But the context in which I was thinking about martyr was for the definition. If you look it up, it says a person who dies for his belief.
I keep telling people, Micah Johnson is not a hero. He`s not a martyr to me. I don`t believe in a cause that calls for the killing of individuals.
So, yeah, in hindsight I look back and I could have used a different word. But I definitely didn`t use that word to raise him up, glorify what he did
or condone any actions that he took against those police officers.
ABRAMS: One of the things though that troubled me was this wasn`t a statement someone kind of overheard or sort of recorded you saying. You
decided to sit there .
JAMES: Right.
ABRAMS: . and record yourself making the comment. And you`re focusing on martyr and I get that that`s been the headline. But I actually was more
troubled by you saying that you weren`t sad that these officers were killed.
So, I`m trying to figure out you decide to put the laptop down and to record yourself talking about this and then knowing you`re going to make it
public. You know, that`s -- it seems that you`ve kind of gotten what you wanted, right, which is a lot of attention and some fair criticism of some
words that shouldn`t have said.
JAMES: People said that I did it for attention. You know, honestly, I share with my Facebook family and friend all the time. My page is public.
I don`t mind people, you know, seeing what I post at all. And that was really -- the title of my video which people have failed to look at is, "I
don`t want to feel this way." I don`t want to become numb to the senseless killing of anyone, including police officers, white people, black people,
or anyone.
And honestly, you know, people should take more of that opportunity to go within. People need to be looking within themselves .
ABRAMS: Well, but I .
JAMES: . and dealing .
ABRAMS: . think that`s a really good point.
JAMES: . with things that don`t align with their values. And seeing how they can be a personal .
ABRAMS: Right.
JAMES: . catalyst for positive change.
ABRAMS: I think it`s .
JAMES: It`s one thing to think about .
ABRAMS: But let`s talk about that.
JAMES: . these feelings and to -- at that time .
ABRAMS: Right.
JAMES: . and I feel sad, is another thing to go out and kill people. And if more people looked within and dealt with those .
ABRAMS: Right, but let`s .
JAMES: . you know, they talked about .
ABRAMS: All right, but let`s ...
JAMES: . dialogue.
ABRAMS: OK, but let`s .
JAMES: It`ll make a difference.
ABRAMS: . talk about that which is imagine if -- imagine how you would have felt. I mean, could you obviously are feeling more for the, as you
said, you know, this young African-American men who you believe are being killed by police officers. You clearly feel more for them than you do for
the police officers.
[19:30:00]
And if the tables had been turned here and someone had used the language that you`ve used here but turned the tables on it, you`d be furious. You`d
be probably going on your Facebook page denouncing them.
JAMES: I`m not sure I can say that.
ABRAMS: Really? Really, you`re OK .
JAMES: That`s a possibility.
ABRAMS: . with people saying if they don`t care?
JAMES: I don`t know, you know.
ABRAMS: So, if I were to come on and say, "I`m not sad about two people who died." If I said that, you would say, "Are you kidding me? What are
you talking about you`re not sad?"
JAMES: I think I will just take a chance to look at the entire video. I would -- I know, personally, I`m a person that likes to listen. I try to
really listen to people. So, I would look at the video if you posted it. And if it was a truly tearful and heartfelt, emotional plea and confession
of .
ABRAMS: I don`t buy it.
JAMES: . the way you`re dealing and the fact that you`re dropping (ph) with it.
ABRAMS: I don`t buy it.
JAMES: Who -- you may not, and that`s your opinion. And you know what, as Americans, we are entitled to that opinion.
ABRAMS: Absolutely.
JAMES: I respect your opinion.
ABRAMS: Yeah.
JAMES: And .
ABRAMS: No, look, I`m not .
JAMES: . you know, and that`s really what this is all about.
ABRAMS: Yeah. No. I`m not saying, look .
JAMES: I wasn`t there to .
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Can I say in here?
ABRAMS: Hang on one sec, Spirit, one second. I got one other question here which is, do you think your employer .
JAMES: My intention was never to offend anyone, especially the .
ABRAMS: I understand.
JAMES: . of the wives and families of those officers.
ABRAMS: I agree. Look, I don`t question your intent. The question is, you know, what was the result of words that you used here? Are you -- do
you think that your employer did the right thing by suspending you?
JAMES: My employer has a right to protect its brand and to, you know, think about the patrons that he serves. But I just have reminded them that
they have a responsibility to all of the people that they serve, supporters and people, you know, who are naysayers. And I respect their decision.
It`s all that I can really do.
But, you know, there are a lot of people out there who support me. I have received tremendous outpouring of support from some people who said, "I saw
the headline and the word martyr and I was appalled. And I looked at your whole video and I believe that you were truly conflicted and I don`t
believe that you`re an evil person .
ABRAMS: Yeah.
JAMES: . who`s trying to spread hate." I`m not trying to spread hate. I`m really trying to spread love. I would never .
ABRAMS: I understand, you know, I understand the intent.
JAMES: . the killing of any individual.
ABRAMS: And look, there are lot of people who intend .
JAMES: It`s not the person I am.
ABRAMS: Yeah, I understand. There are a lot of people who intend to do one thing, but their words end up .
JAMES: Right, and people make mistakes.
ABRAMS: . manifesting themselves .
JAMES: People make mistakes all the time.
ABRAMS: . in a different way. You can say -- I can say something horrible and say, "I didn`t intended to be horrible." And then people will say,
"But you are horrible. What are you talking about?"
JAMES: Right.
ABRAMS: Let me take a quick break here. I know Spirit wants to get in. Spirit, I promise you right after the break, we`ll get you in.
We`ll talk to Kalyn some more too. Please stick around, we appreciate it.
And later, cops have lost their jobs for speaking out about recent events in Black Lives Matter. Is that fair? Coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABRAMS: We`re talking to the woman who made a controversial Facebook video after two fatal shootings by cops of black men in Louisiana and Minnesota
and then the ambush executions of five Dallas police officers.
I`m Dan Abrams, in for Dr. Drew tonight. Back with Spirit, Joe, Randy and Kalyn, who made that video.
All right, Spirit, you`d wanted to get in before. I apologize for not letting you in before. What do you make of it?
SPIRIT: Yeah. OK, so, Dan, you`re an attorney, and so, what you do is exactly what you did. You just grilled that young lady and put her in the
hot seat. But I`m a mental health professional.
ABRAMS: Right, and so I did. Yeah.
SPIRIT: And what I do -- no, what I would say is wrongly so.
ABRAMS: Right.
SPIRIT: Because from a mental health perspective, what we just saw in that video was a woman who was grappling with coming to terms with feeling
something that she wasn`t comfortable with feeling. She is losing her humanity and it disturbed her.
ABRAMS: But you know what?
SPIRIT: And I`m going to put this in terms. Wait, wait, wait, Dan, because I listened to that whole segment.
ABRAMS: All right, real quick, real quick, yeah.
SPIRIT: I want to put this in terms that the youngest person in your audience can understand.
Pretend like this is day care or elementary school and there is a bully that is kicking your butt every single day that you go to class. And
finally, after you getting your butt kicked so many times, somebody rushes in and knocks that bully down.
ABRAMS: Wow, Spirit, you`re actually .
SPIRIT: You`re going to have a hard time.
ABRAMS: Wait, wait, Spirit, you realized what you just did, right? You`re now comparing this guy who ambushed the police officers to someone who
rescues from a bully?
SPIRIT: No, hear me, hear me.
ABRAMS: You`re going to end up like Kalyn.
SPIRIT: Yes. Hear me, hear me.
ABRAMS: I mean, come on.
SPIRIT: Hear me. Listen to what I`m saying.
ABRAMS: I`d listen very carefully.
SPIRIT: Listen to what I`m saying.
ABRAMS: I`m listening to every word.
SPIRIT: No, I`m not finish, Dan. Hear what I`m saying. You can only get slapped around but so many times and turn the other cheek. We only have
four.
ABRAMS: Oh, so, Spirit .
SPIRIT: And black people in this country had been smacked on all four over and over and over again.
ABRAMS: Spirit, you are digging deeper here.
SPIRIT: What is happening?
ABRAMS: You are digging deeper.
SPIRIT: Dan, hear me.
ABRAMS: You -- listen to what you just said.
SPIRIT: And I`m OK with that because I want you to understand what`s happening.
ABRAMS: No. All right. And I think I got it. Let me .
SPIRIT: We are inciting .
ABRAMS: Right. Let me see.
SPIRIT: . and energizing .
ABRAMS: Because -- I understand.
SPIRIT: . a level of people .
ABRAMS: Let me see if I`m the youngest person in the room.
SPIRIT: . that have never had this experience before.
ABRAMS: Right. Let mess see if I`m the youngest person in the room and I actually understood .
JAMES: And you`re continuing to push .
ABRAMS: Hang on a sec. Hang on a sec.
I want to make sure I understood what you just said. You`re saying that after you`ve been kicked around, example, being young black men who are
being shot. When the bully then gets .
SPIRIT: Not just black men .
ABRAMS: Sorry?
SPIRIT: . black children .
ABRAMS: Fine.
SPIRIT: . black women.
ABRAMS: All right, come on, Spirit.
SPIRIT: Not just black men.
ABRAMS: Spirit, please. The bottom line is you`re not disagreeing .
SPIRIT: Do we need to name the names?
ABRAMS: That`s fine. It doesn`t matter. The point is you`re saying and you`re saying that black men, children, women are being mistreated in this
country. And then, they are the ones being bullied.
Then the hero, who comes and pushes the bully, is the guy who ambushes five police officers. And you`re saying .
SPIRIT: No, you missed it, Dan.
ABRAMS: Can`t you understand .
SPIRIT: You missed it.
ABRAMS: . why we`re conflicted here?
SPIRIT: No, no. Dan .
ABRAMS: I missed it. I missed it.
SPIRIT: . what I said is .
ABRAMS: Tell me what I missed.
SPIRIT: Hear me.
ABRAMS: Tell me.
SPIRIT: Imagine that you are the person that has been bullied, OK?
ABRAMS: Right.
SPIRIT: Now, imagine someone comes in and smacks the bully down.
ABRAMS: Who`s smacking the bully?
SPIRIT: You and -- hear me, hear me.
ABRAMS: Who`s smacking the bully?
SPIRIT: I`m not talking to you about the bully. You`re missing the point again. I`m not talking to you about the bully. I`m talking about you on
the ground.
[19:40:00]
ABRAMS: Wait.
SPIRIT: Would you have empathy for the bully or would you feel relieved that someone has helped you?
ABRAMS: Joe, am I .
SPIRIT: I`m trying to put the context .
ABRAMS: Joe, it seems to me .
SPIRIT: . of what she felt in that video.
ABRAMS: I -- Joe, I may be the least wise person and as a result they`re talking to me like a child helps, but am I missing this, Joe?
SPIRIT: Clearly, it doesn`t.
ABRAMS: Joe, am I .
HICKS: No, you`re not missing.
ABRAMS: Joe, am I missing this?
HICKS: You`re missing anything, Dan. We`ve just heard, again, psychobabble trying to explain a real phenomenon here. And that really a
big element.
SPIRIT: Psychobabble, where is your .
HICKS: Wait a minute, wait a minute, you just have .
ABRAMS: Let him finish there. Let him finish.
HICKS: You just rumbled on for a long time. Let someone else talk for a change here.
We`ve had a woman -- we`re in this new Kardashian world where people think it`s appropriate to share whatever it is you`ve got in your mind because
you think it`s really important for other people to hear it. That`s what got exposed, right, what Kalyn`s showing.
Now, let us just get in this for a minute. She`s talking about we`re in a time when the nation is hurting. Yeah, people are hurting. They are love
ones of five cops in Dallas who are hurting in real time not this supposed kind of stuff. If that`s important to point out here we don`t, you know,
so, and so, then, following that, we then hear this kind of ongoing psychobabble, I use that word again to try to explain in term that no one
understands. In fact, there comes a time when people will hear this needs and they had simply have to ask people, "What the hell did you just say."
ABRAMS: Well .
HICKS: Because it makes so little sense in the world of reality.
ABRAMS: And I`ve got to say, and I give Kalyn a credit. Look, hang on a sec. I did Kalyn a credit.
SPIRIT: He said five people.
HICKS: There she goes.
ABRAMS: Hang on a second, Spirit. Hang on a sec. Hang on a sec.
I give Kalyn credit for coming on and saying that she wouldn`t have used the word martyr, right, if she could do it again. Which basically, then,
at least allows us to have a discussion about what was the point of this.
And this goes -- this allows you, Spirit, to then say she was grappling with her feelings, et cetera. That`s OK. I mean, I think it`s OK for us
to sit here and talk about it in that way, and I respect Kalyn for coming forward and being able to say, you know, "Yeah, if I could do it again I
wouldn`t have said everything that I said."
SUTTON: Dan, can I say .
ABRAMS: Go ahead, Randy. Yeah, keep going.
SUTTON: Look, and first of all, I want to congratulate Kalyn for achieving her goal of getting her 15 minutes of fame .
JAMES: OK.
SUTTON: . which is clearly what this was all about.
JAMES: I had more than 15 minutes of fame.
SUTTON: And the thing -- but the thing that .
JAMES: But I wasn`t seeking fame.
SUTTON: . get`s me .
JAMES: I was clearly just making a video .
SUTTON: Here`s the thing -- why don`t you be quiet for a second and let me talk.
ABRAMS: Hang on. Hey, wait, Randy, we`re going to be respectful. Let`s - - one thing we are going to .
JAMES: Why don`t you be quiet.
ABRAMS: I -- no, no, wait .
JAMES: We come here today .
ABRAMS: I know, Kalyn .
JAMES: . so people can listen to my heart .
ABRAMS: Kalyn, it`s fair. Wait, wait, Kalyn, hang on, hang on. I don`t want to get off here and just keep talking to each other disrespectfully.
So, Randy, you can please ask but please ask it and speak respectful.
SUTTON: I will -- I`ll be happy to do that if you will .
ABRAMS: All right.
SUTTON: . let me speak.
ABRAMS: I`ll let you speak but be respectful.
SUTTON: So, here`s the most -- here`s the thing that bothered me the most about her coming out with all of this. It was even the martyr part, which,
of course, was distasteful as it gets, but she talked that she said that she valued human life.
And here is why this is horrible because she didn`t see those police officers as human. And that, unfortunately, is the most telling thing in
this whole matter.
ABRAMS: Well, I give Kalyn a final word on that.
JAMES: You don`t know what I saw. You`re not in my head. You have no idea what I saw.
I value all human life. I value the life of the police officers but just because at that moment, because of my feelings and the way I had been
affected that I couldn`t feel the normal feeling that I would have of absolute disgust at the killing of these officers, I had to deal with that
in my heart and know that that`s not really the person I`m, that`s not on moral compose.
Things affect people in different ways and you can`t control the way a person supposed to feel, think or what they say.
ABRAMS: All right.
JAMES: I .
ABRAMS: I`ve got to wrap it up.
JAMES: . and that`s really just it. I mean, I .
ABRAMS: And you get the final word on this, Kalyn.
JAMES: . regret that people were hurt but I`m not a bad person.
ABRAMS: All right. Kalyn, gets .
JAMES: And I just want people to know that people are hurting .
ABRAMS: Kalyn gets the final word.
JAMES: . and I didn`t intend to offend anyone.
ABRAMS: I got to wrap it up with Kalyn.
Kalyn, thank you very much for taking the time to come on and answer .
JAMES: Spread love America. That`s what America needs.
ABRAMS: . the hard questions. I appreciate it.
Next, a Black Lives Matter activist calling for the disbandment of the Minneapolis Police Department will be here. Find out what she has to say.
Coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABRAMS: I`m Dan Abrams, in for Dr. Drew tonight. I`m back with Lisa, Joe, Randy and Spirit.
Protesters shut down a bridge in Minneapolis today. It was led by an organization called the Coalition to Wake your Ass Up. They also issued a
release that was posted on the Black Lives Matter`s Minneapolis Facebook page.
And get this, they are calling for the "Disbanding and Dismantling" of the Minneapolis Police Department in response to the death of Philando Castile.
On the phone now with us is Oluchi Omeoga, an organizer for Black Lives Matter in Minneapolis. Thanks a lot for taking the time, we appreciate it.
Do you support the disbanding of the Minneapolis Police Department?
OLUCHI OMEOGA, BLACK LIVES MATTER MINNEAPOLIS ORGANIZER: I think that Minneapolis has to reassess how the police -- I think that a lot of these
police officers are not from the community, they`re from the suburbs, the outsides of Minneapolis and locally have a connection with the people that
they`re policing.
I definitely agree with the disarming of the police.
ABRAMS: So .
OMEOGA: I think that they should use non-lethal tactics -- in order to subdue people or even talk to people.
ABRAMS: And do you also think they should be disbanded? I mean, I`m just trying to think about how the city is going to function in the meantime
when the police is all disbanded?
OMEOGA: So, just because there was a disbanding of the police doesn`t mean that there`s nothing going to come of it. Again, as I said, Dan, we
believe in community policing, we believe police actually coming from the area if that`s what they`re -- if that`s what we`re going to do to police
the area. So, making sure -- sorry?
[19:50:00]
ABRAMS: Yeah, no, I mean, the -- I guess my concern is -- yeah, this is specifically and primarily, and I would -- I am sure that there`d been
other instances but we`re talking about this without even all the facts coming out yet with regard to the Philando Castile case.
I would assume your position is that this isn`t really about the Philando Castile case?
OMEOGA: This is -- so, this is about Philando but this is also about more than just Philando, right? So, I mean, the evidence is the video that his
girlfriend posted on Facebook.
ABRAMS: Which is after the fact. Right. Yeah.
OMEOGA: Yeah. After the fact, yes, but you can definitely listen and hear -- have you watched the video?
ABRAMS: Oh, I have, I have many times, yeah.
OMEOGA: I know it was hard to stomach.
ABRAMS: Very.
OMEOGA: But did you watch the video? You can even hear the officer that was trying to subdue him, talk about like, "Oh, well, I asked for him to
get his wallet," and he`s girlfriend`s like, "Yeah, you asked for him to get his wallet .
ABRAMS: Right
OMEOGA: . and that`s what he was trying to do."
ABRAMS: Right, well, but that -- right, that`s her account of this.
Hang on for one second, I want to go to my panel on this because you now, Spirit, I think that this is, you know, this is part of the problem, right,
is that, you know, you`ve defended some of what Black Lives Matter has said. We`ve talked about this on the show before and these sorts of
suggestions, disband the Minneapolis Police Department, disarm them, are what, in my view, removes any sort of credibility from the movement because
it`s so absurd, no?
SPIRIT: Well, if you really want to understand, Dan, and this is what most of the America is simply not understanding, what you are seeing is a
reaction of people saying do something.
ABRAMS: OK, but this is not something, right?
SPIRIT: We don`t know what the answer is. No, here, it`s extreme. And I wouldn`t .
ABRAMS: Right. OK, that`s what I`m asking. Yeah.
SPIRIT: This is not something that I would say that I agree with.
ABRAMS: Yeah.
SPIRIT: But what -- the bigger issue here, Dan, is we have to understand that people are calling for some kind of action.
ABRAMS: Heard, heard.
SPIRIT: Pay attention.
ABRAMS: Yup, yup, got it.
BLOOM: Yes.
ABRAMS: Got it.
SPIRIT: Pay attention.
ABRAMS: Got it.
Lisa, what do you make? I mean .
BLOOM: Yeah.
ABRAMS: . again, I think that this is a problem for the movement. They post this on their Facebook page?
BLOOM: Listen, I disagree. I`ve been at many Black Lives Matter protest. I donated to the cause. I`m a Black Lives Matter supporter. In any large
organization, there`s going to be a couple of people who say crazy things. There are police and fire officials .
ABRAMS: They posted this on their Facebook page.
BLOOM: . this week calling activists monkeys, saying that they should be run over.
ABRAMS: You know what, those people .
BLOOM: I think we should get rid of the extremist .
ABRAMS: . actions should be taken against them too.
BLOOM: . and talk about the organization.
OK, but you know, listen, Dan, this is an organization that`s dealing with 1,000 Americans killed by police every year when countries like France or
Germany .
ABRAMS: Yeah.
BLOOM: . kill 8 or 10.
ABRAMS: All right.
BLOOM: This is a very serious issue. I don`t think we should hang up on a couple of people. We don`t need to .
ABRAMS: Again, it .
BLOOM: . why explain to them how to do their movement.
ABRAMS: Fair enough. If this was a couple of people, I`d agree with you, this was posted on the Minneapolis Facebook page of Black Lives Matter.
But thank you very much to our panel, I really appreciate it.
Actually, I`m going to see if we have time for you guys to weigh in one more time because I`m going to have my take on our police officer who paid
a restaurant tab after customers refused to sit next to them. Coming up after.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABRAMS: I`m Dan Abrams, sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight. My take, I read a story today that on some other day might not have meant much.
A group of Pennsylvania police officers picked up the check, including a tip, for a couple who didn`t want to sit next to the cops in the
restaurant. Cops doing something nice to change some local residents` opinions really might ordinarily be not national news. But in this highly
charged environment, not only should the police be looking for opportunities, in most cases which don`t cost them money, to help bolster
their image, but the media should also be covering those stories.
There`s an argument, and I think a good one, that the media has helped stoke the flames or the racial divide that`s erupted in the past week. The
media isn`t responsible for the shootings but the judgments, conclusions, coverage has an enormous impact on how these things play out.
I think now, we, the media, have an obligation to try to help in the healing process. And so, if that means national media highlighting some
random local feel good story about some good guy cops and I say bravo to the media and to those kind cops who paid the tab.
All right, Joe, you wanted to get in before, I apologize, one more set of time. What did you want to say?
HICKS: Well, I think your comment is right on point. I think it indicates the extent to which Black Lives Matter rhetoric has sipped into our
everyday kind of view of the world. Here are couple of people that think all cops are bad, and I can`t even sit next to these people, that`s how
evil and bad they are. That`s a horrific state for us to be.
But just before the break, we heard attempt to sanitize Black Lives Matter by claiming, "Oh, they`re not a friends group. They`re not extreme. In
fact, they`re just -- the rare people are extremist." No, Black Lives Matter is a hateful, extremist, racially obsessed movement that is very
dangerous to this country. And if we keep sanitizing it, that`ll be to this nation detriment.
ABRAMS: Lisa, you are the one who made the comments, a real quick response.
BLOOM: Yeah. I mean, that`s so sad to me that the Black Lives Matter mantra is "Stop killing us." And random active kindness by the police are
wonderful, but more importantly, we need policy changes, non-lethal force policies, et cetera, to start saving lives. That`s what the movement is
all about and it`s a righteous call for justice.
ABRAMS: Randy?
SUTTON: The reality is that the Black Lives Matter movement is a racist terrorist organization. They are filled with hate and they do nothing than
to bring this country to get .
BLOOM: Have you even talked with people .
ABRAMS: Hang on.
BLOOM: . in this movement?
ABRAMS: I got to get Spirit the final 20 seconds here, Spirit?
SPIRIT: Listen, I`m not changing anybody`s mind on the panel, so I`m talking to the viewers at home. You can love and feel sorry for the
officers as well as Mr. Castile, as well as Mr. Sterling, it`s called humanity and that`s what you should be feeling.
ABRAMS: All right.
SPIRIT: Period.
ABRAMS: Great, panel. Thank you guys all. Really appreciate it. And thanks for watching. Thanks Dr. Drew for letting me sit in.
Coming up next, we got Pat Lalama, filling in for my pal, Nancy Grace. I`ve enjoyed the few days, thanks for having me. See you.
END
