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Dr. Drew
Police Racial Profiling. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 14, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM SCOTT, (R) SENATOR OF SOUTH CAROLINA: In the course of one year, I`ve been stopped seven times by a law enforcement officer. Not four, not five,
not six, but seven times. Was I speeding sometimes? Sure. But the vast majority of the time I was pull over for nothing more than driving a new
car in the wrong neighborhood or some other reason just as trivial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE SLATER, "DR. DREW`` HOST: That was Republican Senator Tim Scott from South Carolina. I`m Mike Slater sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight.
Joining me, AnneElise Goetz, Attorney, Tiffanie Davis Henry, Psychotherapist, Eric Guster, Trial and Civil Rights Attorney, and Randy
Sutton, Former Lieutenant for the Las Vegas, Metropolitan Police Department, and National Spokesman for Blue Lives Matter, thank you all for
being here.
Senator Scott, the only black Republican in the Senate talked about his own brushes with the law on the senate floor and talked about an experience his
brother had. Listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT: I also think about the experiences of my brother who became a command sergeant major in the United States Army, the highest rank for an
enlisted soldier. He was driving from Texas to Charleston, pulled over by a law enforcement officer who wanted to know if he had stolen the car he
was driving because it was a Volvo.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SLATER: I got to star with the police officer here, Randy. Randy we`re talking about a US Senator, OK, not a gang member on the south side of
Chicago. Why would a police officer pull over someone seven times like Senator Tim Scott?
RANDY SUTTON, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN R.D., (RET.): Well, of course, we don`t know the reason for that. I mean, and I understand what he`s saying.
One of the things that he mentioned was driving in a neighborhood with a nice car. I have no idea why he was stopped or if that`s accurate, but
perception is reality, and that`s part of the problem is when you perceived that this type of conduct is taking place, and you`re on the receiving end
of it, why the very dramatic effect on you? And that`s a -- this is one of the problems we`re having all over the country.
SLATER: Yes, traffic stops maybe one thing, Randy, but he also went into the US Senate wearing the US Senate pin, and they stopped him, and the guy
said, we know the pin, but we don`t know you. He`s a US Senator. This type of stuff happens a lot, no? Not just in cars.
SUTTON: Well, I don`t know, you know, I mean, I don`t know what your security arrangements is. You know, maybe when you go into the particular
building that is so secured, if the guy does not recognize you, and he does sees a pin, I mean, it was seem to be pretty much in common check
identification. It doesn`t seem unreasonable.
SLATER: Yes. Eric, what do you think of Randy, his response here and Senator Tim Scott`s experience?
ERIC GUSTER, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: I give Randy a gold star for trying on this one, but the reality is Senator Scott was stopped because he was
black, and that happened with so many of us, is driving while black, being corporate while black, all of us experienced that type of situation.
When I was watching Senator Scott today, I was floored with that video, just floored because being a GOP Senator telling his colleagues exactly
what he`s experiencing because so many of us who talk to people and talk to others about this, they simply don`t understand. And he had some wonderful
quotes where he stated where if you -- just because you don`t understand what we`re going through does not mean it does not exist. He said, to
ignore, our struggles, does not mean they would disappear. That was his quote, which is so true. So many people want to act like it did not happen
or this perception is maybe reality. No, it`s beyond perception. This is what happens on a daily basis to so many people who are being race
profiled.
SLATER: Yes. And this is powerful. So I`m a conservative, I`m a Republican, I love Tim Scott, and for him to say that, I think it`s going
to cause all Republicans to think about that, think about his experience.
And we also have a little whistle blower situation here as well. I want to tell story of Michael Birch, he`s an officer in the transit division of the
NYPD. He claims that there is an illegal quata system in the department. He has proof, he says, we an audio recording that he made during a meeting
with a supervisor back in 2012. Here`s part of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who commits the crimes in the city?
MICHAEL BIRCH, NYPD OFFICER: Who commits the crimes? Well, it`s mostly teenagers, anywhere between the ages of 15 and 19, mostly male blacks and
Hispanics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Who are you stopping?
BIRCH: Everybody. I stop everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 54 up to 8/20. 25 of those are female. Half.
BIRCH: OK. Like I said, I stop everybody. I`m not targeting anybody. First of all .
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just told me who the bad guys are.
BIRCH: Yes, I know that. But also --there`s also other people who are committing violations as well. I`m not saying that there`s not violations
being made.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The male blacks, that you told me commit the crimes .
BIRCH: Plenty of people that I write summonses to are male blacks and male Hispanics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You stopped two male blacks.
BIRCH: Not for the whole year. And I have -- You`re telling me for the whole year I only stopped two male blacks on summonses?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SLATER: I want to start with Eric on this one. Eric, try to put yourself in the shoes of police officers here. Is there any justifiable reason why
the supervisor would tell the officer that he`s not arresting enough of a certain type of person? Any justifiable reason at all you can think of?
GUSTER: There is no justifiable reason. The supervisor could claim maybe this officer is a little lazy, and not doing his job. However, so many
NYPD broke rank and came out and say, there`s a quota system. There`s over a dozen of them last year here in New York who broke rank and said, look,
we`re going to stop arresting people just because there`s a quota system, and what they do is they put these people into certain areas of town where
they can`t afford representation, they can`t afford lawyers, they can`t afford to fight back. So what they are doing is arresting these young
people and people who are poor, people of color, and getting them in the court system to try to get money out of them.
SLATER: Yes.
GUSTER: It is legal extortion.
SLATER: Tiffany, I want to go to you here, as psychotherapist. What is -- try to explain to everyone watching the ramifications that -- especially
kids, right, talking about teenagers who are going to be repeatedly being targeted by police officers. It feels ...
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right.
SLATER: What`s the ramifications of that long-term?
HENRY: Well, I think you`re setting up a system of mistrust, of disregard, for our police officers who quite frankly, I think that it looks like and
feels like a system of "I got You, I`m just waiting on you to do something, looking for you to do something. I know that you did something." So let
me go ahead and stop you. Let me go ahead and frisk you. Let me go ahead and catch you in act, even before you`ve done something. This is not a
system of suppressing crime. This is a system of catching someone even sometimes before they even commit a crime.
SLATER: Randy, I`m all about proactive policing, and I`ve talked to police officers who say stuff, like, listen, yes we pull over people -- cars of
black people but 95 percent of the time, there`s drugs or guns or something. So that`s the reason why we`re doing this most of the time,
it`s successful, but that crosses a line when get to a quota, right? What`s the logical purpose finding a quota, other than police departments
trying to make money?
SUTTON: You know, this has been a topic of discussion for many, many years. Legal quatas are -- that is when say, you have an actual written
rule that you have to do so many tickets, so many arrests, that doesn`t really happen anymore. So it`s under the surface a little bit. And it`s -
- it can be -- it`s damaging because when you force people to make arrests and you pressure them to do it, then you get low quality arrests and you
get low quality citations.
You know, just to make supervisor happy. And this happens in big department, in small department that there is pressure put on these
officers, and it backfired.
SLATER: Yes.
SUTTON: The other part of this thought is that, you got a -- you also have lazy officers, and so .
SLATER: That`s fine, yes.
SUTTON: . as a supervisor, you got to try and stimulate that.
SLATER: Yes, lazy officers is one thing, but I don`t think that`s exactly was going on here. Actually guys, we have the attorney for the officer
Michael Birch. Mr. Scola is here. Mr. Scola, a big fun of whistle blower, I think we not lead a lot more of them, what motivated your client to blow
the whistle in this case? What moved him to do this?
JOHN SCOLA, ATTY. FOR OFFICER SUNG NYPD: Well, first of all, thank you for having me.
It`s a little bit more (inaudible) because we`re also presenting the NYPD as well, and a quite action against the NYPD which consist of 12 minority
officers speaking out against the quotas which are very active, and they are being enforced in NYPD as we speak.
Now, the reason why Michael Birch came out with the recording this week is because that officer who was stressing that he target minorities in order
to make his numbers, was not promoted by Commissioner Bratton to a higher rank within the NYPD.
SLATER: Is your client being retaliated against by any of the other officers?
SCOLA: Yes, and again all of clients have been retaliated against. They are --they don`t make -- so this is the way -- I mean, I think the problem
to look at all of this is that the targeting is in place so that the police officers can make the quota so that the NYPD can makes money .
SLATER: Yes, that`s .
SCOLA: And push the staff.
SLATER: The for-profit policing have to stop. Listen, conservatives -- fellow conservatives are watching here. This is something progressives,
black lives matters conservatives need to jump on board and its support. For-profit policing and civil forfeiture has to stop. It does not help
anyone. It`s just creating tons of distrust, as Tiffanie was saying. And we can stop this low hanging fruit, quotas, for-profit policing no more
that.
Guys coming up next up, we have the story of a man who used to protest the police. Now training with them, why? And later, what happens when white
police officers shoot and kill an unarmed white man? Back after this.
YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN, T-MOBILE DAILY SHARE: I`m Yasmin Vossoughian with the T-mobile daily share at this hour. You might surprise to learn just how
many drivers experiencing road rage, a new study by AAA found that nearly 80 percent of drivers have express significant anger or aggression behind
the wheel in the past year. The study also found that nearly 8 million drivers have engaged in some kind of extreme behavior like confronting
another driver or even ramming another car.
AAA says, the best way to prevent road rage is to be careful, tolerant and forgiving. The group says, you should resist the urge to make provocative
gestures and don`t respond to or even make eye contact with any angry drivers. And if necessarily make sure that you call 911 if you get that
situation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIMITRI ROBERTS, FORMER CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER: Before I was a police officer, I was a young black man on a south side of Chicago who was
racially profiled but who was also bit by the police.
And it was only because community members put their arms around me and said, turn your hate, turn your frustration into something positive that
lead me to the military, but then, brought me back to that same neighborhood as a Chicago police officer where I was profiled.
But then, as a law enforcement officer, I had to do some profiling to protect the citizens that I swore that I would do.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Did you profile black men?
ROBERTS: I profiled all people. And here`s why, because it`s an effective policing tool.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SLATER: What an amazing perspective. That was a clip from CNN Town Hall black, white and blue. The officer said, he`d been on the negative side of
profiling too. So he can see both sides.
Oh, what an amazing perspective there. That was a clip from Cnn`s Town Hall "Black, White, and Blue," and the officer said he`s been on the
negative side of profiling too, so he can see both sides.
I`m Mike Slater, and back with AnneElise, Tiffanie, Randy, and Eric. And I want to talk about the perspective, getting both sides.
Joining us, Reverend Jarrett Maupin, a Progressive Baptist Preacher, and Activist who was organized civil rights marches in Phoenix. Reverend, I`m
glad you are here, sir. Why did you spend an afternoon about a year ago at police training? Why did you do that? And what did you learn there?
JARRETT MAUPIN, TRAINED WITH THE LAW ENFORCEMENT: Well, the purpose of the training was to give us some perspective about what law enforcement deals
with when they`re in tough and violent situations. And what I came away with was a deeper appreciation for the importance of compliance, not a
complete new perspective about police and engaging the community, but certainly a deeper appreciation for the life saving power that`s in
compliance.
SLATER: I think this is important for everyone watching now who`s not gone through the training, which is most everyone who does not realize how
quickly things happen for the police officers. I remember watching some footage of you going through that with a guy in the training who was casing
vehicles, and you`re, like, sir, sir, sir, step away from car, show me your hands, within 1.2 seconds, he killed you with his gun. It happens that
fast, is that what you picked up?
MAUPIN: Absolutely. I pick that up. Now, I know they`re different options, and offices have backup in different scenarios. It just give me a
general sense of what it was like to be under that kind of pressure, so, you know, for my fellow African-American men and women who are watching,
compliance is key. Compliance is not mean surrender, it does not mean acquiescing to racism or racism profiling, it means abiding in the law. If
you`re dealing with a cop who is a brutalizer or excessive force user, I think it increases your odds of surviving the account, so you can sue the
hell out of them after.
SLATER: Eric, is that racist of the reverent to say something like that? Because I know, if white people say that, then they`re -- it`s critical,
right? Why do we have to comply? Black people, what do you say to that?
GUSTER: It`s not racist to say comply. That`s something that I talk when I talk to young people and adults all over the country, that`s what I tell
them to do. You will not win a fight on the side of the road because the police officer has the gun, they have baton that is not the proper way to -
- proper place to win a fight. What you are to do, comply, try to record the event similar to the lady who recorded an event in the recent shooting
of Philando Castile. Record the events, and fight in the courtroom. Because some of the officers, they are strong, some of them are -- have
weak personalities and trigger happy, so you have to make sure that you don`t know what kind of personality you`re dealing with. Be very careful,
comply, and fight it later.
SLATER: Yes. Would you be willing to go to that training to get that perspective?
GUSTER: Oh, I would. That would be very interesting. I`ve been through some law enforcement training with BPD. They`ve taught me some things, but
I will still look at that is normal.
SLATER: Yes, everyone needs to see that. Everyone needs to know how quickly things move. And I think we`ll have a little more empathy for what
the police officers are going through.
Now reverend, you`re not completely on the -- I don`t want to say, on the police`s side, but you`re still doing some activism. I heard that you`re
planning on shutting down from traffic this weekend. What`s up with that?
MAUPIN: Absolutely.
SLATER: Why? Why what do you mean? Why are you that?
MAUPIN: Because we`re dealing with systemic racism.
SLATER: What is shutting down -- try to listen. I apologize, sir. I`m -- we can have a conversation about systemic racism, the rest, but why are you
shutting down traffic?
MAUPIN: We`re shutting down traffic for the same reason that Dr. King and other civil rights leaders did to draw attention, non-violently through
means of civil disobedience to grave injustice that people of color are facing particularly with so called, 21st century policing.
SLATER: AnneElise, what do you make of shutting down traffic. I think we can all agree on the cause, but unjust means for unjust ends doesn`t make
sense, does it?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: Well, Mike, I mean, I`m maybe even susceptible on this. We had traffic shut down a couple times in San Diego. I`ve been
caught behind it. And it`s frustrating, but I understand what they`re coming from. And I understand the idea of the civil disobedience.
They are breaking the law. So there`s a risk to it. There`s a risk that you get arrested. There`s a risk that you have a criminal record. I think
that you have to go into this understanding. This isn`t just a going to a demonstration, a nonviolent demonstration. This is more. You`re actually
-- it`s a criminal activity when you stop the traffic and you`re impeding traffic. And I wonder if everyone knows that. Because there comes a
point, I think we`ve been seeing less of these demonstrations. And I wonder if the reason we`re seeing less is because people are trying to get
charged for them.
SLATER: And they`re wildly unproductive to your cause, Reverend. So again, I`m a conservative, you want to win me over and people like me, if
I`m driving to work or I`m home to be with my family. And you black traffic. There`s not a single person in the history of the universe who --
you are endearing to your cause by blocking me preventing me from going home, right?
MAUPIN: Well, the people blocked there are likely not allies of the cause. I`m not saying .
SLATER: Don`t you want to make allies?
(CROSSTALK)
SLATER: Don`t you want -- of course? Yes, that`s not helping.
MAUPIN: So that`s what we do, of course, we do. But our country has ignored race -- racism in policing for a long time. So our march in
Phoenix on 24th Street and Camelback Road, I called that the intersection of affluence and apathy. It will force people to deal with a situation
that they have luxury. You know, there I see the white privilege of ignoring that black lives matter. And we demand our civil rights to be
affirmed.
SLATER: I suggest there is more creative ways to do that one. When Martin Luther Kings Jr. engaged in civil disobedience, he was breaking a specific
unjust law, right? Like Rosa Parks sitting in the front of the bus, right? Like, or she wasn`t allowed to sit in front of the bus, so she broke that
unjust law by sitting in the front of the bus. She didn`t just break other laws or random laws to bring awareness. She broke a specific law here.
MAUPIN: There are no .
GUSTER: Martin Luther King broke -- he blocked traffic, but that got attention. So police have saying that because that`s simply not true. He
blocked traffic to get attention .
MAUPIN: No, unjust law. He broke unjust law.
GUSTER: No, he didn`t.
MAUPIN: And marches in the street for as long as we had a similarity and.
SLATER: Not necessarily for the purpose that you guys are doing. You guys are just doing it to cause trouble. And listen, I`m trying to help you. I
got to go. I`m trying to help you. You`re not endearing yourself to anyone when you do that. So I`m suggesting you think of something more
creative.
MAUPIN: We`re not doing it to .
SLATER: You`re making everyone uncomfortable .
MAUPIN: . very similar to you .
SLATER: I don`t know what good it does. Randy, we got to go to you real quite. Randy you`re a police officers, this puts people in harm`s way,
doesn`t it sir?
GUSTER: If you make people on .
(CROSSTALK)
SLATER: Randy, we go to Randy here.
SUTTON: Yes. Here`s what`s happening. This is -- they want to have trouble. That`s the whole problem here. By particularly going into the
streets knowing that it`s going to lead to arrest situations, all it does is it creates more violence and more of this madness that`s going on.
SLATER: It`s law -- I feel like it`s increasing madness .
SUTTON: . and that is police brutality?
SLATER: Sure. And that`s true, and if you can think of a great way to prove -- guys, we have to run, if do you think a way to do that without
hurting your cause, we have to think about without hurting the cause, I think it would serve you guys a lot better. Lawlessness is the perception,
why do more lawlessness.
We got to go guys. I appreciate you. White police officers kill an unarmed white man. Just the other day, where is the news coverage, where
is the outrage there, where is the blocking traffic there? Later, Megyn Kelly, D.L. Hughley have an epic disagreement about race on live TV. We`ll
play that for you, back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SLATER: Mike Slater sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight. Let`s discuss another police shooting. One that received little national media
attention, it`s the story of Dylan Noble, 19-year-old, unarmed, white man, killed by police in Fresno, California. Family, obviously, outraged,
claiming police executed him.
Now, police just released the body cam footage from this incident. Warning, very serious, this is extremely graphic right here. So hide the
kids. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get down on the ground now. Get down on the ground now. Get your (inaudible) on the ground. Fresno police department, drop
what you have in your hand. If come forward, you`re going to get shot, man. Get on the ground now.
(Inaudible) 12 shots fires, suspect down. AMS code three (inaudible). Let me see your hands. Keep your hands up, we cannot see his hands. Move.
Keep your hands up. Get your hands out. You reach one more time. You will get shot again. Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Quit reaching for your waistband.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SLATER: Wow. Hard as that is to watch, glad that was released. I think we need to see the truth. America needs to see the truth about what goes
on here.
Eric, I want to start with you sir, your experience is -- was that man having a threatening posture? Did that deserve being shot four times by
officers, twice while standing, twice while he was down on the ground? What do you think?
GUSTER: First two shots were clean shots. The second shot -- the second set of shots, there`s a shady part in there in that -- it seems like they
could have approached him and made him surrender at that point because he was incapacitated at that point, he would barely moving, it seems like they
had enough time to stop him, but when hands was behind his waist band, that was a clean shot.
SLATER: Randy, you`re a former police officer. Former police officer, the second two shots, because I think that`s what going to disturb most people.
I think most people agree with that. The second two shots, a little more sketchy, explain why those two shots were taken?
SUTTON: OK. They had a couple different options here. I viewed the videotape actually a number of times, and it`s very clear that he
purposefully went for his waistband. You can see that his hand goes under his shirt where a weapon would normally be kept or clearly would be a
threat.
So I understand why they took the action that they did. Now, were there other options they could have done? They could have backed off, that`s
true. But when you`re in combat mode, you`re in combat mode, and when you still perceive that threat is there, then you have to take the action that
you feel like you need to take in that split second of a time period.
SLATER: Eric, I`ll speak on that, right, once you`re in that combat mode, once you make the decision to stop the threat, you can`t just turn it right
off like that right away. What do you think of that?
GUSTER: Well, stopping the threat includes approaching him, grabbing his arms, and putting handcuffs on him. These police officers are
professionals.
SUTTON: Not while he still has a weapon.
GUSTER: This is what they are supposed to do. No. this .
SUTTON: No, it`s not.
GUSTER: People get arrested with weapons all the time, Randy. This man was shot. He was on the ground. They were two feet from him. You can`t
tell me that one .
(CROSSTALK)
GUSTER: . no one can approach him?
SLATER: Let me sure you guy the screenshot .
(CROSSTALK)
SLATER: Guys, I want everyone watching to see the screen job here -- screen grab where you can see him walking towards the officers, right?
Disobeying commands, 30 times he was told different commands. And you can see here left hand in the air, but his right hand behind his back, and to
speak on right in this point it looks like even one is on the ground, he`s still reaching for something behind him there.
Tiffanie, I want to go to you here because this could have been suicide by cop, right? You can hear in the clip he said, "I hate my (inaudible)
life." What do you make of that?
HENRY: Yes. You know what, that was the first -- my first thought when I watched the video, when I saw that caption there, that maybe this was
someone and I don`t know his mental health history. I don`t think any of us do at this point. But, I`m a little troubled by it because it does
feels like he was intentionally not complying with the law.
I think that your guest said before, compliance is key, so key. He had ample opportunity to put both hands up several times, and nobody wanted
this ending. It did not sound like the officers wanted this ending. They gave him every opportunity to comply and generally, when you have a
situation of a suicide by cop, they intentionally don`t comply because they want the officers to shoot them.
SLATER: OK, this is interesting. We have Tiffanie, we have Eric in agreement that at least in the very beginning the first shots were
justifiable. We`ll start with you, Eric. Do you think if this was a black man that you would have the same reaction?
GUSTER: I don`t care if a person is black, white or green. I look at it from the legal perspective. I prosecute cases on the civil side. I`ve
defended police officers, so I have a very objective way of looking at these cases whether black, white or whatever race. But the issue was
whether or not as a clean shooting, the first two shots were clean, the second ones are questionable and I`m sure in their investigation, they`re
going to check it out.
SLATER: I want to go on the phone to Warren Paboojian. He is the attorney for Dylan`s father. Warren, back to my last question, do you believe --
does the family believe that it was suicide by cop?
WARREN PABOOJIAN, ATTORNEY FOR DYLAN`S FATHER: Absolutely not. There`s no history of any type of mental illness. He had a good job. He had a
girlfriend. And you know, the point to make that I see a little bit differently is that if you play the video beforehand, this was not a stop
regarding a felony. This was strictly a traffic stop. So when the police had their vehicle -- I mean, stopped their vehicles, they had their guns
out even before the vehicle stopped.
SLATER: Were they not told that they were looking for someone who was walking around with a rifle?
PABOOJIAN: They were told that the person had camouflaged apparently three miles away walking on foot carrying a rifle. By just carrying a rifle in
and of itself is not a felony. So this was a traffic stop. There`s no indication when you listen to the dispatch that they are pulling him over
because they suspected he happened to be this 25-year-old white male with a rifle walking down three miles away.
SLATER: Do you think -- Warren, do you think, you know, Dylan may have been under the influence of anything when he was .
PABOOJIAN: You know, I think it could be that he might have been under the influence of alcohol, but you`re going to yourself in his position. He`s
19 years old. He doesn`t know why he`s getting pulled over. Granted he doesn`t obey these commandments or these commands by the police officer,
but they had a K-9 dog there before the first shot went off.
There`s a K-9 unit and the officer with the shotgun brought the dog, and he shot intervals. The last two are between five seconds and 15 seconds and
they are 12 feet away. So at the end of the day, the last two shots are nowhere acceptable. I mean, that`s an excessive force, at least in my
opinion.
SLATER: AnneElise, what do you think? Excessive force?
GOETZ: I think excessive force cases are just about impossible to win, and this one is not a winner. You have a clear shot, the first two. People
were talking -- discussed earlier. What I think you hit on, Mike, and I think this is an interesting question. The -- what we be -- why don`t we
seeing this yet, because it`s a white male? I think we haven`t seen it yet because what`s enthralling is the video, and we just got the video. The
video is just released, and that`s why I think we haven`t seen it yet. I don`t think it`s a race issue.
SLATER: Well, more to come. We actually have more to come. Coming up next, we have the police chief tells us why the officers felt threatened in
the first place as Warren was just referencing there. And coming up later, race in America, why, why still is this topic tearing America part it`s
2016 people, back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SLATER: We`re talking about the 19-year-old unarmed white male shot to death by Fresno police just the other day, just released, body-cam video
shows Dylan Noble walking towards the officers with one hand behind his back.
I`m Mike Slater sitting in for Dr. Drew. Thanks for being here. Here`s what happens right before the cops open fire. Another warning, video is
graphic here. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me see your hands. Stop. Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground now. Get your (inaudible) on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fresno Police Department, drop whatever you have in your hand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you come forward, you`re going to get shot man. Get down on the ground now.
DYLAN NOBLE, SHOT AND KILLED BY FRESNO POLICE: I (inaudible) hate my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SLATER: Back with AnneElise, Tiffanie, Randy, Eric, and Warren, who`s Dylan`s attorney who is still on the phone.
AnneElise, I want to start with you. You said during the break and I want to make sure I heard you right that this has not been getting national
attention because the video was just released. I would like to pause (ph) it that this is not getting national attention because it does not fit the
Black Lives Matter narrative. We know twice as many white people are killed by police officers every year more as black people. That`s why I
don`t think this is getting attention, what do you think?
GOETZ: Well, of course, the Black Lives Matter isn`t picking it up. It`s a white guy. It`s not a black guy, so that doesn`t fall in line with their
movement. I think the reason that the other media services haven`t been picking it up because there is an issue right now with the general
population, not just Black Lives Matter, but the general population being concerned about police violence, excessive force.
The reason that we haven`t seen this picked up to date is because we didn`t have the corresponding video. But, I don`t fault Black Lives Matter for
not picking this up. It`s a white guy.
SLATER: Now, because the beginning of Black Lives Matter, if I remember correctly, was what you just said, it was about police brutality, and that
is a righteous cause that should be championed. But because it was not brutal against the white guy, it`s not getting attention because it`s Black
Lives Matter, not all lives matter, right?
GOETZ: Because those are two different things. Those are two different things and I think that it`s unfair to take away what they`re trying to
say. What they`re trying to say is we`re looking at how it`s a disproportioned impact on the African-American community, just the
excessive force we`re seeing by the police.
That is their battle cry. That`s what they`re talking about, and to say, well, we want to lump it in with everything else that`s going on with the
police, we`re losing sight of what I believe one of their underlying issues is with focusing on what`s happened to the African-American youth and how
it relates to the police.
SLATER: Well, I`m definitely down with that story, too. But Randy, I want to go to you. So, this is according to the police chief in Fresno. I
don`t understand this quote at all so, "One of the officers said during his interview that he felt Noble was either taunting him or practicing pulling
out a gun."
I don`t understand either of those two possibilities. What is he saying there?
SUTTON: I`m not really sure either. I mean, if you`re practicing pulling out a gun, you`re pulling out a gun. I don`t understand that either. I
mean, the conduct that I saw from him was very typical of suicide by cop, though. And the statement that he made just towards the very end was very,
very important to this whole discussion. "I hate my blanking life."
SLATER: Yes.
SUTTON: That is -- suicide cop is a very real thing.
SLATER: I want to bring it back to Warren, who is Dylan`s lawyer. Again, Warren it comes up suicide by cop. I mean, that`s the argument that the
police department is making. We have a psychotherapist here who says, this is all the signs of that. How do you prove that that`s not what this was?
PABOOJIAN: Well I don`t know, but I have young kids, and kids nowadays use that phrase when they`re going to get in trouble. If he was under the
influence and he thought he was going to get arrested, that`s not a good thing for him, so that could have been the reason for the comment. We`ll
never know because they`ve shoot and killed Dylan.
But at the end of the day, he does not have any type of mental illness, psychotherapy problems. He was a good kid, he had full-time job and he
graduated, and he has no criminal record.
SLATER: Tiffanie, how do you .
PABOOJIAN: They knew that when they pulled him over. It was a traffic stop, there`s no way you connect the rifle incident three miles away to
this traffic stop. So, I beg to ask, when you`re pulling a person over, that`s a felony situation that they are engaging their weapons.
SLATER: I want to go -- Tiffanie, 30 seconds. How do you prove that maybe he did want suicide by cop. Now, that -- as Warren said, he`s dead, what
do we do now with that?
HENRY: Yes, I don`t think that you necessarily can prove that, but I don`t think that you can`t either because he doesn`t have a history of mental
illness doesn`t necessarily mean he doesn`t have mental illness or did have mental illness at the time of his death.
As we know and as Dr. Drew would tell you if he was here, 19 is a critical age. There -- most kids when they are diagnosed with either schizophrenia,
depression, any of those diagnoses, they often are having their very first break and first .
SLATER: Yes.
HENRY: . bouts of depression, anxieties and all of those things, so.
SLATER: Warren, I really got to go. What do you want the officers charged with, real quick?
PABOOJIAN: Some type of manslaughter charge. Those last two shots were clearly in a situation that, you know, it`s got to be imminent danger for
fear of their life or serious bodily injury and if you`re telling me that the kid lying down on the ground with two bullet holes is posing a serious
bodily threat to you, whether he`s reaching or not, I disagree.
SLATER: Warren, I appreciate you, thank you for being here.
PABOOJIAN: Thank you very much.
SLATER: And give my best to the family because no matter what we all think about this it`s still a tragic situation.
Coming up next, interview about race, degenerates into an ugly war of words on live T.V. with two of my favorite people. We`ll tell you about that
next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should not have a racial divide in this county anymore. But we do. So I say to him, you do put your hands on the wheel.
You do still have to be extra careful because you`re black.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we just take a moment as America and register how profound and immoral it is. This is not the way that everybody has to
behave. It is only the way that you have to behave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SLATER: Immoral. That was from CNN`s town hall "Black, White, and Blue" the other day about the racial divide that exists in America.
Mike Slater sitting in for Dr. Drew, back with AnneElise, Tiffanie and Randy. And joining us via Skype, Segun Oduolowu, Social Commentator, host
of the podcast "Wired in with Segun"
Segun, what`s the problem my man. I`m white, I got a white daddy. He told me to keep my hands on the wheel. What`s up?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well I don`t think there`s any problem with you being told to keep your hands on the wheel, but when we have
different rules for different people that is the problem. And we`re never seeing videos of young, white motorists getting shot. It`s always black
motorists. And I find it alarming .
SLATER: Literally three minutes ago we did, but continue.
ODUOLOWU: Well no, I just -- I find it alarming that, you know, they -- it`s always black people having to justify why they were shot. What was
wrong with the motorist? What was he doing? How come he wasn`t complying to all of the rules?
But, everybody knows, and in the Philando Castile case, you`re going to reach for your gun with your girlfriend and -- sitting next to you and a
baby in the back seat? I mean, none of these things are plausible.
SLATER: Oh like that`s never happened?
ODUOLOWU: You know, it always feels like the cops get exonerated.
SLATER: Isn`t it -- and like that`s never happened. Isn`t it just about communicating, moving slowly and keeping everyone safe. That`s what it`s
about. AnneElise what do you think?
GOETZ: I love Segun. Segun, you know I love you, but here`s the thing. It`s not different rules applying to different people, different
communities. The problem is it`s being disproportionately applied.
So, as we heard at the beginning of the show, we have Senator Scott that`s been pulled over seven times in a year, that`s unacceptable. But every
single time he has to comply. Just like in the last video that we saw, the white individual, the white man had to comply and he didn`t and he got
shot. So .
ODUOLOWU: Yup.
GOETZ: You`re -- you are being held accountable more often and being forced to comply with the law more often. But regardless, everyone has to
follow the same rules. You`re just forced to do it more often.
SLATER: And Tim Scott and the police offer just say every time they got pulled over -- guys, I want to go to this real quick. We had a heated
moment last night between -- and real quick Segun. Segun, Segun, I want to go right to you next Segun after this clip. Here`s Fox`s Megyn Kelly,
actor D.L. Hughley, listen to what happened when they started talking about Michael Brown and Ferguson. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Michael Brown was the aggressor.
D.L. HUGHLEY, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Wow, here`s what I`ll say .
KELLY: Don`t wow me.
HUGHLEY: Don`t tell me not to wow you.
KELLY: That`s what they found.
HUGHLEY: It is not uncommon for you all to see one thing. The only place racism doesn`t exist is Fox News and the police department. That`s the
only place -- that`s absolutely true.
KELLY: Come on. That`s insulting. You just insulted millions of people watching this channel.
HUGHLEY: And you know what, I`m insulted by the things I hear on this network, so we`re even.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SLATER: Segun, I believe there are racists in America, but I don`t believe we are a racist country. What say to you?
ODUOLOWU: I -- guys I would have to disagree. I think we are a racist country. I think that racism, it`s all basically no pun intended in the
shades that we choose to look at it.
I mean, if we`re already saying that black motorists are being stopped more often, disproportionately more often, none of you have ever really been
stopped for driving while black, I have. So if we`re already saying that the people stopping me are biased towards me driving a certain car, or
acting a certain way, how can I comply with the rule by people that are already skewed against me?
SLATER: OK, let me.
ODUOLOWU: That`s what black people are complaining about. It`s not that we don`t want to comply with the rules, the rules are already skewed. The
deck is stacked against us.
SLATER: I talked to a police officer yesterday, echoing his sentiment. He said, "The reason why we tend to pull over more black people is because
often times when I pull over a car with five black guys in it, there are indeed guns and drugs and all the rest." What do you say to that?
ODUOLOWU: I drive around with plenty of black people in my car and we don`t have guns and we don`t have drugs.
SLATER: You don`t, but statistically maybe more do.
ODUOLOWU: Statistic -- OK, so again black men make up 6 percent of the population. So we`re saying statistically that me, a journalist, I have
more guns than say, I don`t know, a neo-Nazi skinhead. Why do we just .
(CROSSTALK)
SLATER: I guess my point is -- I really got to go. Last question, last question, I guess my point is when a police officer pulls over a car, and
there`s things in there that are illegal, they`re going to keep doing it. Why would they keep doing it if there was nothing illegal ever when they
pull over black people? Twenty seconds.
ODUOLOWU: Because as you just said we`re living in a racist society. Listen, I`m not saying all cops are bad. I`m not saying all black people
are angels. What I`m saying is that to assume that one is evil and one is good is the wrong assumption.
And when cops are pulling over black motorists disproportionately at a greater rate than they are white motorist and black motorists are getting
shot on video way more than any other race in America, it`s very hard to stand on the soap box and say we`re not living in a racist time. We won`t
need town hall meeting if everything was great.
SLATER: Segun, I appreciate you. Appreciate you, Segun. Slater says is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SLATER: Mike Slater sitting in for Dr. Drew. So Segun says we are a racist country. I don`t believe we are. But either way, racism doesn`t
need to define us, because here`s the bottom line. We have way more in common than things that make us different. The differences are shallow,
surface level like, you know, how light reflects off of our skin. But the things we have in common, those are deeper and infinitely more valuable.
Our passions, our fears, wounds from the past, hopes for our kids and in the end, almost all of us really want the same things. And if we can put
down our guard, we can see that, even Segun and I.
Look at these protesters in Dallas marching down the street. They came across the redneckiest bunch of hillbilly Texans you could find, American
flags, belt buckles, the works. These are perfect stereotypes of these groups. But instead of fighting each other, they ignored the battle lines,
hugged as they introduced each other and talked about things they have in common and then prayed. Black, white, and the police officers who were
there to separate the groups from each other, they joined in the prayer, as well.
There are things we can fix in our police departments. There are things that need to be fixed in the families and communities. If we`re ever going
to fix those things, first, we need more of that. Mike Slater here, Dr. Drew back on Monday. Nancy Grace is up next.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do begin tonight with breaking news out of Arizona .
END
