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Dr. Drew

Ex-Marine Kills Three Police Officers In Baton Rouge; Analysis Of Baton Rouge Killings. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired July 18, 2016 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have an officer down (inaudible). We need the BearCat now for an evac.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a very carefully planned confrontation by the shooter, Gavin Long. Sources telling us today that they believe the police

at this moment that he planned to lure the officers to him, that he knew that if he was walking along this area with his AR-15-style assault rifle

wearing all black and wearing a mask, that someone would call 911.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All I saw when we pulled up and took a round through the windshield, he had a mask on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This general area is where the confrontation occurred, where the standoff ended with the shooter, Gavin Long, being killed but

also with those three officers being killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROGER LODGE, HLN ANCHOR: Three more officers executed in the line of duty. An ex-Marine turned life coach did it, and his motive appeared to be

revenge.

I`m Roger Lodge, I`m in for Dr. Drew.

The deadly ambush in Baton Rouge comes just days after five cops were murdered in Dallas. The killer was avenging the deaths of a black suspect

shot and killed by a police. Baton Rouge shooter, Gavin Long, who was killed posted this to YouTube on July the 10th.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GAVIN LONG, BATON ROUGE SHOOTER: Stay a child. You get what I`m saying? You the children -- I`m out in the streets and the children is like, "Yeah,

I agree with you." Because the children still got curiosity. They didn`t beat it out of them yet, you see. That`s why I love the kids and that`s

why I`m still a (inaudible) kid. You got to stand on your rights.

You see, that`s what separates me from the 7 billion. And that`s why I`m so powerful because I stand on my rights. And, man, this is all for you.

I don`t even want to see women at rallies and all that. Is -- I feel embarrassed by seeing that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LODGE: Scary stuff indeed.

And joining me, Lisa Bloom, Civil Rights Attorney at The Bloom Firm, and legal analyst for Avvo.com. Aaron Cohen is here, former Special Forces

operator, specializing in counterterrorism, and he`s the founder of Cherries Counter-Terror School. And Horace Cooper, attorney and co-chair

of the black leadership group Project 21.

But first, tonight, CNN`s Brian Todd live in Baton Rouge at the crime scene.

Brian, what is the latest at this hour?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Roger, police officials here in Baton Rouge have given some riveting detail about how the killer operated in

these buildings behind me. This is the B-Quik mart here in Baton Rouge. Police say that on Sunday morning, he moved behind these buildings waving a

gun, dressed all in black with a black mask on, trying to lure police to this spot and he succeeded.

They say that he was moving behind these buildings, again, acting in a very threatening manner, probably thinking that someone would call 911, they`re

even keeping open the possibility that he called 911 himself.

When officers responded over in this area behind this fitness expo building which is just over here, that`s when he started to open fire on them in

that general area. We say that he killed three police officers -- actually two Baton Rouge police officers and one sheriff`s deputy all in one

specific area behind that fitness expo place over here. And then when he tried to escape, he was taken out by a SWAT team from a hundred yards away.

What is interesting also tonight, they are convinced, Roger, that had he not been taken out at that moment, at that spot, he could have gone down

this way. We`re going to kind of pivot and look down the street. The Baton Rouge police headquarters is, I`d say, 500 to 600 yards down the

street, that beige building that kind of stands up beyond the trees there, not far away.

They are convinced that he would have moved down the street and targeted police in the Baton Rouge headquarters had they not taken him out when they

did, Roger.

LODGE: Are we absolutely 100 percent sure that this killer acted alone?

TODD: At this point, Roger, officials say they are almost certain that he acted alone. They believe that he was in the area for at least a few days

before the killings, that he may have stayed with some people. That`s the -- that`s kind of one of the holes that they`re trying to fill here, one of

the gaps that they`re trying to fill in.

Did he -- who did he stay with? Who did he come in contact with? Those are questions that are still outstanding tonight. So we hope to learn more

about that in the coming days.

LODGE: And we also know there`s another officer in critical condition in the hospital. Do you have an update?

TODD: Yes. That is a sheriff`s deputy who was hit in the head and in the stomach. They say that he is fighting for his life. He is in very

critical condition. He was shot inside his car.

The good news is, Roger, that one other police officer who was likely wounded in the attack was released today, but there was another officer,

Bruce Simmons, who they say is entering -- as of this afternoon, was entering his second surgery. His arm was shattered between his elbow and

his shoulder, so he was entering his second surgery. He`s expected to survive.

So two of those officers who were wounded being treated nearby expected to survive. One was released today, but that one other officer, I believe his

name is Michael Toleae (ph), is fighting for his life tonight.

LODGE: Brian Todd live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. We thank you for your time, Brian. Thank you so much.

TODD: Thank you.

LODGE: All right now, in one sense, the guy sounded pretty average, former marine, rose to the rank of sergeant, won two service medals, he made the

dean`s list in college, and has no criminal history. But he was also a self-professed life coach who used the name Cosmo Setepenra on social media

and for his self-published books. And in another YouTube video, he calls himself an alpha male and says he`s a former Christian and former member of

the nation of Islam, and he insists he is not affiliated with ISIS or other terrorist groups.

(Inaudible) to you -- so, right now, we`re fighting freelancers? That`s what we`ve gotten to in our country? We`re fighting with freelancers out

there? How crazy is this?

AARON COHEN, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: Yeah. This is a different animal. This is definitely a new hybrid that`s popped up.

I will say this. This is a particular individual who went to a specific place for a specific reason. And in this case, it was to lure in law

enforcement for the purposes of ambushing them. He was trained as a marine. He does carry some decorations from the Marine Corps.

So in terms of his training, he`s not average. He`s above average in terms of his capabilities because he knows how to handle a weapon. And clearly,

he was capable of being able to confront law enforcement, you know, at eye level, and so it makes a gentleman like this very dangerous.

What`s interesting is that his background. This isn`t a terrorist or someone who`s associating with ISIS, it`s a completely new hybrid that I

think law enforcement needs to keep an eye on, which essentially, this gentleman is associated, if I`m not mistaken, with a self-described

sovereign tribe. That`s what he seems to be connected with, in that tribe believes that there is a disconnect, similar to Native Americans, if you

will, they`re exempt from taxes, they`re exempt from having to, you know, they`re almost above the law, if you will.

And -- but clearly, this individual`s delusion, we`ll have a look at the way he`s speaking in the video. To me, it seems like a very isolated,

specific situation involving a gentleman who`s got some mental health issues. There`s no question about it.

LODGE: Let me bring Horace in here. Horace, if we`re going to point any fingers here, where should we be pointing them?

HORACE COOPER, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Well, we shouldn`t start with mental illness. We shouldn`t start with saying when someone does things

that I wouldn`t do or that I don`t comprehend, the best explanation must be mental illness.

How about let`s start with hate. It`s a fact that the southern poverty law center lists the organization that he`s a member of as a hate group, a

racist, separatist hate group, and these organizations and these individuals are walking among many of us, and they are saying many of the

hateful rhetoric that we see in this video. And others say, "Oh, they just have a difference of opinion."

We`re going to have to start challenging the hate rhetoric, and we`re going to have to start expecting people that they are not going to be able to

assimilate into the rest of society while they espouse these hateful concepts.

LODGE: Lisa, in your opinion, is this all about hate or is it more than that?

LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, it`s clearly more than that. And of course, we should all stand against hate and stand against this type of

mass killer. There`s no justification at all for someone to, in cold blood, take the lives of three people and injury others. I mean,

absolutely none.

I think we should all be very clear that he has absolutely zero connection to Black Lives Matter. He was simply acting on his own, and that Black

Lives Matter is a peaceful organization. But the bottom line is in the U.S., we have haters just like everywhere else, but we allow ours to be

armed with semiautomatic weapons. And so whereas in other countries, there are certainly murders and deaths, we have, by far, the highest rate of gun

violence in the developed world because crazy people like this, angry, hate-filled people like this can be armed with an automatic weapon and take

a lot of lives in one shot.

LODGE: And in my opinion, that could not be scarier. When we come back, a killer`s rants, they were out there for all the world to see.

Did anyone realize the danger factor?

And later, military men turned killers. What role did mental illness play in murder? I`m Roger Lodge. I`m in for Dr. Drew, and I`m back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To actually meet someone even for a brief moment, and they end up being that person is unheard of. And it sends a chill to your

spine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he left, I said, "That dude ain`t right." I said something about him don`t seem right. I couldn`t put my finger on it,

but I just knew that something about this dude is not right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LODGE: Something about him was not right. Chilling words from the manager and owner of a barbershop in Dallas where cop killer, Gavin Long, was

before his rampage in Baton Rouge.

Now, they say he was aggressively trying to sell his book and secretly recording them.

I`m Roger Lodge in for Dr. Drew tonight. Back with Lisa, Aaron and Horace.

Aaron, she said something just wasn`t right about the guy, whatever that means. My question to you is, is there enough material here? Is there

enough material to -- enough profile behavior here that just wasn`t right for someone to speak up and say anything to anyone?

COHEN: No, I don`t think there was enough at that point yet. I don`t know how long he was in the neighborhood before he went off on his rampage.

But, I mean, look, you`ve got coops out there all day long who were -- who yap and talk. But, there`s a big difference between sitting at the

barbershop, which is a great place to yenta, and opening fire on law enforcement is two completely different things.

You know, people -- that carrying out the act, the behavior of committing an act of murder, which is a serious red flag in terms of profile. This is

something that the FBI, law enforcement, they have to be investigating this guy, there`d have to be series red flag of rhetoric and rants in order for

them to be able to properly behavioral profile him to be able to potentially stop this attack.

Having said that, we can now start looking online and start looking on Facebook, start looking on Instagram for the types of rants and

associations with, you know, violent behavior and violent rhetoric that could potentially keep these attacks from happening, but I don`t think that

there was enough for law enforcement to be able to prevent this particular attack.

LODGE: Not even when he was talking about arming himself, telling people to arm themselves against law enforcement?

COHEN: Yeah, I disagree.

LODGE: What do you think?

COHEN: I disagree.

COOPER: I disagree. In fact, mostly political correctness prevents us from having a serious conversation about the bad behavior and the hate

rhetoric.

Too many people have accepted the premise that the only hate and the only racism can from white America and that it should be ignored and it

shouldn`t be given much consideration.

We all should be looking at Martin Luther King`s idea that we`re all going to be judged not by the color of our skin, but by the content of our

character. This individual demonstrated the very kinds of commentary postings, et cetera. His name change. Everything he was doing was

signaling he was part of the hateful rhetoric that is often associated with a lot of this discussion about police officers and black ...

COHEN: Well, there`s a difference between hateful rhetoric and picking up a weapon and opening fire on law enforcement. So, you can disagree all you

want. I`ve been dealing with terrorists for almost 20 years and I can tell you, there`s no direct alignment between somebody who wants to yap on

YouTube and somebody who`s going to physically pick up a weapon.

So I understand where you`re coming from, and while I respect your opinion, and it`s mildly informing, there`s a big difference between carrying out an

act of violence against law enforcement and then yapping on YouTube. We can`t start looking ...

BLOOM: And we don`t have the resources.

COOPER: I disagree. I disagree. This individual should have been observed. I didn`t say he should be taken in. He should have been ...

BLOOM: But Roger ...

LODGE: OK, yeah, hold on a second, hey, guys, let me get to Lisa here. So Lisa, do you agree with Horace?

BLOOM: Yeah.

LODGE: Was there enough here for this gentleman to be observed?

BLOOM: Well, first of all, this wasn`t about race for him. Unfortunately, one of the people he killed was African-American. It was anti-police.

But secondly, we don`t have the resources to have law enforcement monitor all 300 million plus Americans and look at their social media posts and try

to read the tea leaves and glean whether someone`s going to become violent or not. That`s just not feasible.

What we can do is deny people the right to have semiautomatic weapons like every other developed country does and disarm hate.

LODGE: So wait a minute, Lisa, the guy said we should arm ourselves against law enforcement. He clearly said that on the video. Did you not

see that?

BLOOM: Yes. That`s -- no, but that terrible. But how are we going to have enough people to look at all of the social media posts ...

LODGE: Well, not everybody`s saying that. But not everyone is saying specifically what this psycho said.

BLOOM: Well, then -- but then how can we ...

COOPER: First of all, let`s be clear.

BLOOM: ... how can we you say law enforcement did this?

COOPER: First of all, let`s be clear. Just this last week, someone in a well-developed European nation took a truck and killed nearly a hundred

people without having to have access to a firearm. The truth of the matter is, hateful activity will allow people to do a number of destructive

things. Half a dozen people ...

BLOOM: OK, just because people ...

(CROSSTALK)

LODGE: I want to get to Aaron. Hold on, let me ask Aaron a question here. Aaron, what about the fact that this guy said we need to arm ourselves and

he also went on to say other things as well that would present itself as being threatening. Why weren`t we on this guy?

COHEN: There`s no question . Roger, there`s no question that those were red flags, there`s no questions that those are things that we need to be

looking at. We need ...

LODGE: Yeah, especially when he said we know -- he said we know what we have to do.

COHEN: There`s no question. What I do want to talk about is the macro picture of terrorism or the macro picture of violence and how we respond to

it and how we use our resources right now.

ISIS is the number one threat along with Al-Qaeda that we`re facing. They`re using the internet in numbers, that`s where our NSA is directed

right now, that`s where our CIA is directed, that`s where our forward operating bases are focusing on in Syria and Iraq.

This is a new wave of threat that we`re seeing right now. This isn`t something that we`re used to. This is something that`s going to take time

in order for our law enforcement community to be able to put together a mosaic of exactly what the profile of these individuals are and then, begin

to proactively go after these individuals before they can act out.

I agree with both of your guest, Lisa, as well as your other guest, that this guy is definitely ...

LODGE: Horace is our other guest.

COHEN: Horace, and I agree that Horace is on to something when it comes to hate. Hate is definitely something that can turn into violence, but being

able to predict violence is not something that anybody has ever solved, otherwise it wouldn`t have any crime.

Guns, obviously, are an issue or the weapon that he was using is obviously an issue. But having said that, have a look at the Bataclan, have look at

Europe, have a look at what happened at the cafe, have a look at what I was talking on CNN a couple days ago, as far as what happened on your Yom (ph)

Bastille or Bastille Day. You have someone who used a truck as a weapon.

Europe has had the strictest gun -- anti-gun laws in the world and people are still able to get a collection of fully automatic rifle from

Czechoslovakia and be able to open fire, and because those citizens are unarmed.

BLOOM: But the gun deaths there are far fewer than they are here.

COHEN: No, that`s not true. 85 people were killed by a truck ...

BLOOM: It is true.

COHEN: ... Lisa, and at the Bataclan, over 100 people were killed ...

BLOOM: OK, and we have about 30,000 a year here in the U.S. You can`t talk about one incident, you have to talk about the overall numbers.

COHEN: Lisa, Lisa, Lisa ...

LODGE: No, go ahead.

COHEN: ... I agree with the macro picture and I don`t disagree with you that weapons need to be looked at or the mental health needs to be looked

at of who we issue guns to and how the background checks are conducted and the types of weapons.

We don`t have gun laws in Israel. Israeli citizens aren`t allowed to protect themselves. But having said that, we have a free standing defense

force which allows our soldiers to carry fully automatic weapons as an additional layer as first responders to and from our bases and that`s an

actual security method ...

BLOOM: And they`re trained.

COHEN: That`s right, but there`s a lot of trained individuals here in the United States who are also legally, lawfully carrying weapons that I can

tell you that I ...

BLOOM: OK, but this guy ...

LODGE: OK, hold on. Hey, guys, hey, guys. Go ahead, Lisa, finish it quickly.

BLOOM: This guy should not have had a weapon. You know, I mean that`s ridiculous. And we also have to look at vets, who`s watching vets when

they come home? This the second cop killing vet in just about a week in America. That`s clearly part of it.

LODGE: There`s too many people out here in our country and in the world right now with weapons that should not have weapons. We have so much more

to get to including the dangerous extremist group that no one, and I mean, no one knows about. The killer may have been a member.

And later, the two men who ambushed and murdered police in Baton Rouge and Dallas were military veterans, what made these two people killers?

I`m Roger, I`m in for Dr. Drew and we`re back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LONG: But I just want to let you all know, don`t affiliate me with nothing. I`m not affiliated with the black business school even though I

might promote a business or something like that, or any of my friends, any of my associations. Those are just associates, I`m not affiliated with it.

Yeah, I was also a nation of Islam member, I`m not affiliated with it. Don`t affiliate me with The Money Team. Something happens, and they`ll be

like, "Oh, he was with Floyd Mayweather." No, don`t affiliate me with nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LODGE: Don`t affiliate me with nothing. The Louisiana shooter said he wasn`t affiliated with any groups, but law enforcement discovered he may

have had ties to Washitaw Nation, which is part of the sovereign citizen`s movement, they are an anti-government organization which claims to be

exempt from all U.S. laws.

I`m Roger Lodge sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight, back with Lisa, Aaron, and Horace. Also joining us, Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist and Professor at

Pepperdine University. Hey, go Waves.

All right, Aaron, let me get to you. What is Washitaw Nation? What`s it all about?

COHEN: Well, from what I understand, Washitaw Nation is a fringe element that really, essentially believes they don`t have to pay tax, they`re

almost above the law.

They`re very similar to almost a native. They`re trying to associate with almost a Native American organization in the sense that they really just

don`t have to have any type of connection to the way the government functions.

They`re a fringe element. They`re certainly not on any major maps at this point right now. But from what I can tell, law enforcement has reported

that that organization provides fake IDs, fake birth certificate. So that seems to be their racket. So that`s really what they claim to be.

LODGE: So, Lisa, now that we know a little something about Washitaw Nation, how dangerous is this movement and how much of a threat are they

really?

BLOOM: Anyone who says, "I live in America but I`m not subject to the laws of America", is obviously a problem, and a danger to the rest of us because

guess what? If you live here, you have to follow our laws, it doesn`t matter what your religion is, it doesn`t matter what nation you claim to be

a part of, so I would be concerned.

LODGE: Horace, a bunch of nonsense or should we be concerned?

COOPER: Well, I`m troubled but I`m actually troubled as part of this conversation. I believe that we ought to focus on data points. And it was

just said that two shooters who were veterans must imply that there is a problem with our veterans and their likelihood of committing these kinds of

dangerous crimes.

There`s absolutely the opposite evidence the data shows. The NIH, the V.A., the Department of Justice shows that our veterans are actually

substantially less likely to engage in violence when they return than the general population.

So I don`t want the conversation to go in this direction that somehow implies that the great people who serve and protect our nation are somehow

at risk when they come back. This is similar to the lie that`s being put forward about our law enforcement community.

LODGE: Judy, what do you think?

JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, there`s certainly a lot of other warning signs about the person, and as human beings, we want to ka

categorize. We want to make sense of things and that`s why there are these associations with the fact that he has veteran status with the fact that

maybe he is a member of the sovereign state, and something that`s more self-proclaimed, but I think we`re missing the main issue here.

The main issue is he has really said multiple times in broadcasts such as this one that`s playing in the background right now, that he is an

independent thinker. These are ideas of his own. And for whatever reason through whatever influences he has, he has come to believe the things he

did that led to these issues. So where were the people to identify these problems in the first place? Where were the people when he was growing,

when he was a teenager and he possibly was showing some warning signs?

LODGE: Well here`s what the FBI said in the bulletin way back in 2011. "The FBI considers sovereign citizen extremists as comprising a domestic

terrorist movement that scattered across the United States has existed for decades." Horace, are sovereign citizens terrorists, yes or no?

COOPER: Yes. And in fact, I agree with the doctor. We should be looking at the people who`ve interfaced with this individual. The people that are

approving his social media functions. When you`re involved in a group like this that`s clearly a terrorist organization, people around you should be

rejecting that behavior, not either ignoring it or affirming.

LODGE: Aaron, clearly, a terrorist organization?

AARON COHEN, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: No, I don`t think this is a terrorist organization. I don`t think this is an organization that`s

committed to the absolute destruction of the way Americans operate in a western democracy, and I don`t think this falls into trying to control a

message through the use of fear. I think this is absolutely not a terrorist. I think this is a fringe element. I think this is a punk group

of individuals who law enforcement`s quickly going to squash and put their thumb on. Three officers -- two or three officers are dead right now. Cops

take that very seriously. I maintained a credential of a reserve deputy for a number of years.

Let me tell you something. There`s a lot of law enforcement that`s on heavy stand by right now for other fringe elements who made -- decide to

pop up their head up. And I`m going to tell you, it`s a very bad idea for those organizations or at least lone wolf individuals to try and take part

in anything we just say saw what happened.

If you look at the individual, let me profiling from the Israeli side a little bit. There was an individual, a specific lone wolf who got on

YoutTube, he likes the attention. He`s not affiliated with anyone. In fact, he`s a little cocky little guy with a little ego and I think he

wanted these 10 seconds of fame. It sounds more like a stalker that you`d seen in Hollywood who wasn`t getting alternation growing up.

So I will agree with the doctor and say guys like this, you have to look at the childhood, you want to make sure there`s no mental health issues or any

kinds of abuse like that, but, no, this is not a terrorist organization. He was not a terrorist. He`s just simply a disturbed individual who went

off on a rampage, and I can assure that law enforcement is going to start picking apart every one of the fringe groups, and they should be.

LODGE: OK. Lisa, if it`s possible, give me 30 seconds on the fact that airing (ph) three cops are dead, one is fighting for his life, and he just

called this group a punk group. Is it more than that?

LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHT ATTORNEY: Well, we don`t know about other members of the group and what their beliefs are. There are a lot of people with

kooky (ph) beliefs like citizen sovereignty that are not violent people. They just have this crazy belief.

So, I agree with the other panelists that we don`t want to broad brush an entire group of people based on actions of one guy who says I`m acting

alone, who was a clearly a psychopathic, sociopathic, cold-blooded murderer of police officers that we should all condemn.

LODGE: All right, so much more to get to including the two men who killed police in Baton Rouge and Dallas. Were veterans, what if anything, does

that have to do with their actions?

I`m Roger Lodge for Dr. Drew, and I`m back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All I saw when I pulled up and looked around through the windshield -- he had a mask on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The officers were responding to a 911 call about a man who dressed in black armed with an assault style rifle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gavin Eugene Long, a 29-year-old was the shooter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities right now, trying to learn more about the killer, and ex-marine, who ambushed the police in their own neighborhood.

KIP HOLDEN, BATON ROUGE MAYOR: And so we`re finding out somebody who was methodical in the planning, and, really, an outright murderer in terms of

their taking lives. This guy was just kook out there. You go back and kook at his military background.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LODGE: Baton Rouge cop killer Gavin Long was a veteran of the U.S. Military just like Micah Johnson who shot and killed five officers in

Dallas 10 days earlier. Tonight, some are blaming their deadly actions on the lack of mental health care available to our veterans. I`m Roger Lodge

back with Lisa, Aaron, Horace, and Judy.

Horace, could this police killings have been prevented in we took better care of our vets?

COOPER: We should take better care of our vets. We should have a national conversation about the importance of improving our mental health treatment

and access, but to simply look at the evil that these men perpetrated and assume that treatment would have addressed this issue, I think takes us off

course and does a disservice.

These were also men. Are we to believe that merely being men puts you in the category of being a risk factor for shooting up the community? They

were black.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Certainly it does.

COOPER: Does it mean that that`s a risk factor?

When you start looking at these simplistic associations, you get away from the reality that there were unique activities that these individuals were

exhibiting that were useful for people if they were paying attention. And I don`t blame the FBI. I am talking about their neighbors. I am talking

about their employers. I am talking about the people that followed them on social media. Those individuals should have been saying, "This is

unacceptable."

LODGE: I want to get to my guest from the phone. Joining us by phone, Danine Manette, criminal investigator. Now, Danine recently tweeted and I

quote here, "So the cop killers in both Texas and Louisiana were former military men. We need to seriously reevaluate the level of veterans`

mental health care support."

So, Danine, are you saying the killers are mentally ill and not evil.

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I`m not using mental illness as an excuse because just because someone is mental ill, that doesn`t mean they

don`t need to be punished and it doesn`t mean that they don`t know what they`re doing.

But I think that we really do, in this country, need to take a much closer look at the veterans that are coming home from these combat zones and what

they`re carrying with them, the baggage that they`re carrying back.

Now, I know it may be as your other guests said the simplistic viewpoint of things, but I also think that it`s very, very important that we take apart

the layers one at a time and try and look at what we can address individually. And I do believe that the lack of mental health care that is

afforded to our veterans and the length of time that they need to wait to get it and the inadequacy overall of it needs to definitely be addressed.

LODGE: Hey Aaron, I want get your take here. Is there enough care about our veterans once they come back home?

COHEN: No, I don`t think there is enough care and I can tell you from friends of mine in the special operations community. Obviously, I served

in Israel, but I`m very close to a lot of vets here who served as tier 1, you know, assets and other operation units.

No, there isn`t enough care. I think PTSD is the main issue as far as mental health is concerned. I think self-worth and trying to figure out

what you`re doing when you take the uniform off is a big problem. I think there`s some anger issues when you get out of the military.

I can certainly tell you that when I served after got out, there`s a digression period or cool down period. Well, you got to like, you got to

figure out what you`re going to do with your life. These are all very tough things especially when you`ve been in charge of a million dollars

worth of equipment and gear. It`s a very real problem. I think the V.A. is a mess. I think it`s been messy for the last seven years since veterans

have been coming back.

I don`t -- I don`t want to point my finger, though, specifically at all the marines out there and all the combat veterans and say, "This is what

happens when you serve in combat," because it`s just absolutely not true. In fact, veterans returning from combat make up a very large majority of

percentage of people that are very successful because they function under stress, because they can make tough decisions in places where civilians may

have a tough time.

So, it`s absolutely the opposite, but I do think there needs to be a much larger overhaul of the veterans` establishment. I think it`s broken. I

think it`s political. And they need to fix the entire thing.

LODGE: OK Judy, I want to get to your expertise. Obviously, the great Dr. Drew is not here today. I am. But as someone who has worked with veterans

for years, help make some sense of all of this.

HO: Absolutely, Roger. So, I was working in the Veterans Affairs hospitals for several years during my training, and what I saw was the fact

that they were trying to do good evidence-based work, unfortunately, wait times were long. And important issues often got sideswiped because it`s

mostly a triage situation. They`re trying to get to the most severe things.

And here`s what veterans are actually walking back with. They have a huge sigma against mental illness as a general population. So they`re not

reporting the mental problems, they`re reporting most of their medical problems. So the problem goes both ways.

And here`s what we know about the veteran population. One out of four has some type of mental health concern that is significant to warrant treatment

when they come back.

Most of these problems include post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, or interestingly, traumatic brain injury that is sustained during service

which actually leads to aggressive problems and mood changes and behavioral changes. And people don`t realize that that`s often the first real sign of

a traumatic brain injury and not so much that they`re losing their memory.

And so, we are not addressing the issues that these people are coming back with as well as we should. And even if we`re trying to speed up the

process, the problem is the veterans themselves are not reporting mental illnesses.

LODGE: Are we basically turning our backs .

COOPER: I still want to disagree .

LODGE: . on these people when they come back Judy? Let met get Judy. Judy, are we turning our back on veterans when they come home?

HO: We`re not turning our backs on them, but this is unfortunately what I see because they feel like that is the only avenue for which they can get

services. And truthfully, that`s where they`re covered, right? They can get free services there.

So sometimes, it`s three to four months wait before they can get a psychological evaluation. It used to drive me crazy. We were ready to

serve them but it was kind of a triage situation so somebody would be waiting and if they weren`t more proactive, they`ll be waiting in the rings

for three to four months for psychological evaluation.

LODGE: Yes, that`s way too long for our veterans to be waiting.

COOPER: I, I .

LODGE: I got to get a break, Horace, and plenty more to get to. You`ll have plenty more opportunity including two military veterans killed eight

cops in 10 days. Was this a coincidence or something else?

We`re back after this. Don`t go anywhere. Thanks for being here on a Monday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LODGE: Former marine Gavin Long shot and killed three Baton Rouge police officers. Just 10 days earlier, another veteran, Micah Johnson killed five

officers in Dallas. I`m Roger Lodge back with Lisa, Aaron, Horace, Judy and Danine.

Johnson was sent home from Afghanistan back in July of 2014 after a female soldier accused him of stealing her underwear. A V.A. spokesman said

Johnson sought care three times at a Dallas V.A. medical center. The last time in September of 2014. So Johnson hadn`t sought help in almost two

years. Lisa, whose fault is that?

BLOOM: That`s a good question. I`ll tell you something. We see in a lot of these murder cases men who sexually harassed, as here, or were

perpetrators of domestic violence against spouses. And I think the alpha male categorization that he used for himself is relevant here. I think

this sort of hypermale aggression is something that we see over and over again in these cases. Let`s face it 98 to 99 percent of violent crime is

committed by men. And I think we would do well to take a step back from that kind of alpha male mentality that goes on a lot in our culture.

LODGE: Aaron, what kind of step back do we all have to take, what do we need to look at?

COHEN: Well, we definitely wanted to take a look at any of those military, you know, soldiers who have prior histories of physical violence outside of

combat operations. So obviously, there was a red flag there with this individual. But also I think it`s important to make a very blanket

statement and say that I don`t think this individual represents the majority of combat soldiers. Like I said, most are very capable and are

doing just fine. And a lot of them are getting out there and seeking the help that they need when the engine gets broken, it doesn`t -- it

definitely needs to be fixed.

But I also think that Lisa needs to careful and not hypercategorize all alpha males. These are the same alpha males and alpha females who are out

there serving our country in uniform, in combat operations. I know that as an alpha male, I`m not going to open fire on a group of law enforcement

officers. But at the same time, I understand where she`s coming from.

So, I think that any red flags in the individual files of these soldiers that have to deal with any type of physical abuse while in uniform, out of

combat operations is a definite red flag and needs to be investigated further in order to make sure that there`s no engine malfunctions that can

lead to this kind of violence like we just saw.

LODGE: Dr. Judy, what do you think?

HO: Well, I think it starts with education within the military too. In terms of what kind of message they send to people when they come up with

these types of behavioral problems. Is it OK to go seek help? Can they even direct them or require them to seek help and get a psychological

evaluation? I believe that`s the first step. I think the second step is actually training people who are on the other side. People like myself,

people who are doing the mental health work to actually know how to work with combat veterans.

And really address the types of specific issues that impact this population and this population only. As far as Micah goes, I do believe that he

slipped through the system at some point. He slipped through the cracks. And this particular activity that he got busted for in 2014 was a reported

sexual harassment was not his first.

LODGE: Horace, you`re shaking your head. Go ahead.

COOPER: We don`t have enough data points. If we want to have a conversation about the Veteran Affairs Program and PTSD, sign me up because

you can look and see the program is broken. That`s not the issue. The question is, whether that was a factor here. And we don`t have the

evidence. In fact, the evidence suggests overwhelmingly that our returning vets are not the likely threat to our community or to our law enforcement

officers.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Not true. Let me finish. Let me finish.

LODGE: Finish up Horace:

COOPER: Since that`s not the case, we ought to be focusing on what the triggers are that led to this problem so that then we can focus on

prevention.

LODGE: Lisa, quickly.

BLOOM: Well nbcnews.com posted a pretty thorough study that vets who were in combat do have a significantly higher chance of being involved .

COOPER: Not true.

BLOOM: . in violent crime. Now of course, the majority do not.

COOPER: It is not true.

BLOOM: But we can`t ignore -- now, I`m talking. But we can`t ignore the data they come home with PTSD and those combat vets who have PTSD are more

likely to engage in violent crime. And we all agree we need to give them the mental health services that they are entitled to after going overseas

and serving our country an putting our lives at risk. That`s the least we can do.

COOPER: Not true.

LODGE: It is the least we can do, I agree with that and I think we also all agree that I got to get to a break. When we came back, I have some

thoughts. It`s Roger Lodge in for Dr. Drew. Don`t go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LODGE: Hey, welcome back. Before I leave you on this Monday besides thanking my guest and thanking Dr. Drew, no cards necessary. I would like

to say as truthfully and sincerely as I can, that I find it incredibly and astonishingly somber that this country has taken such a colossal step

backwards when it comes to race relations.

How can we ever move forward as a nation with this kind of racial unrest in our country? When our own people can`t trust law enforcement and law

enforcement can`t trust the people because of our unthinkable acts of premeditated cold-blooded murder. Nothing could be worse than this current

state of affairs. Things need to change and it starts now with each and every one of us.

And as I pass on the message to my three children, I challenge you to pass it onto your children. We are better than this, people. And let`s all do

this, next time we`re at a public gathering, a convention, a ball game where they take the time for the presentation of the colors, not only

reflect on the red, white and blue of the American flag but take time to reflect on the many different colors that make up this country and make

this country great. Dr. Drew is back tomorrow. Nancy Grace is next.

END