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Dr. Drew
Melania Trump`s RNC Speech And Plagiarism; Milwaukee Sheriff Slams Black Lives Matter. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired July 20, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, BARACK OBAMA`S WIFE: Barack and I were raised with so many of the same values.
MELANIA TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP`S WIFE: From a young age, my parents impressed upon me the values.
OBAMA: You work hard for what you want in life.
TRUMP: That you work hard for what you want in life.
OBAMA: That your word is your bond, that you do what you say you`re going to do.
TRUMP: That your word is your bond, and you do what you say and keep your promise.
OBAMA: That you frequent people with dignity and respect, even if you don`t know them, and even if you don`t agree with them.
TRUMP: That you treat people with respect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL SHOW HOST: Tonight, critics are still howling that parts of Melania Trump`s convention speech were lifted from
Michelle Obama`s 2008 speech.
It`s a privilege to be back with you tonight. I`ve been away for a couple of weeks on a 25th anniversary vacation. And it`s a pleasure to be here as
always.
Defenders say that at worst, this was a blunder. So, the question is, will this backfire or just blow over? Joining me live from Cleveland tonight,
Brian Stelter, CNN senior media correspondent.
Brian, my question is, is there anyone that`s going to get fired over there? There was a speechwriter, was there not? Why isn`t that person be
called on the carpet?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: It turns out there were multiple speechwriters, multiple drafts of the speech, some of them were
thrown away, one of them was kept, and it`s still unclear exactly who`s responsible. But, yes, I do think someone`s head will roll at some point.
We just don`t know who.
This could have been a moment tonight for Donald Trump to say that famous line from the "Apprentice" you`re fired, but maybe he`s not going to be
doing that. You know, right now we`ve not heard from Trump on the record. We haven`t heard from Melania either.
The husband and wife must both be furious. Trump is going to appears via remote from New York at the convention tonight, so maybe there`s a chance
he`ll address it, but most likely not. Maybe we`ll hear from him tomorrow about this controversy.
PINSKY: It seems like, Brian, there is sort of their fallback position is there really wasn`t a problem, but there clearly is a problem, right?
STELTER: They`re trying to deny reality by saying this wasn`t plagiarism. It was plagiarism. If I did this in college or if you have done this in
college, we would get a failing grade on our test. If we did this at work here on HLN, we will get in trouble with our bosses.
But the reality is, I don`t think they knew what else to say this morning. They went on the defensive, they denied what was happening. I think
privately, though, they admit this was a screw up.
It`s not a big deal it`s not going to change people`s votes in November, but it does show that the campaign is disorganized. If they can`t do a
simple Google search to check out what the speeches ahead of time, that means you probably need a few more staffers.
PINSKY: Now how about the feeling on the floor there? There is dramatic roll call going on. Do they just move past this whole thing?
STELTER: Yes. It seems like Donald Trump, now that he`s past by the never Trumpers, is now longer the -- is no longer the outsider. He`s no longer
the insurgent, the man from far away who is entering the political arena.
Donald Trump is now the establishment. He is now the grand party. He is now the republican leader, and we`re seeing the rebirth of a great political
party tonight in Cleveland.
PINSKY: Other than the -- what seems to pretty clearly have been some plagiarism on the part of I guess the speechwriter, how was Melania`s
speech overall received there in Cleveland.
STELTER: I would say it was very well received. There were rave reviews from Melania. In fact, once people had heard her, they start leaving the
room because they knew that no one could top her last night.
I wonder though, is she going to give more speeches? Is she going to be back? You know, she wasn`t very visible before this convention, she hadn`t
been on the trail very much. She hadn`t spoken very much.
I wonder if this is going to discourage her from doing that in the future. But I got to say, I think a lot of viewers out there, a lot of voters would
like to see more of her. So, I bet she`s getting advice from people saying get out there, give more speeches, don`t be discouraged as a result of
this.
PINSKY: Yes. I can imagine. I mean, you heard she is someone who is really she has not necessarily asked for this. I guess she is consented to it on
behalf of her husband, and now all of a sudden she`s the center of controversy.
I would imagine it would be confusing her. But, Brian, thank you very much. I really appreciate that report from the floor there in Cleveland.
STELTER: Thanks.
PINSKY: Governor Chris Christie said there is, quote, "No way Melania was plagiarizing Michelle." He suggested and even, it was just a mere, as Mr.
Trump, I`d say I`m so, just a mere 10 percent of the text.
Joining me now, Sara Azari, criminal defense attorney and Spirit, psychotherapist. Sara, Christie says basically no big deal. What do you
say?
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, I love what he says, he says, 7 percent or maybe 10 percent of the speech was close enough to Michelle
Obama`s speech.
[19:04:59] And I have to say this. Plagiarism is a form of theft, it`s the taking of somebody else`s words, work, or even ideas and claiming it as
your own. And so, I have to analogize the situation where you go into a store and you steal something.
It doesn`t matter what percentage of the inventory you`ve stolen. Theft is theft. And the fact that she`s plagiarized is what happened here.
PINSKY: Well, yes. Yes. And I got to say, you know, Brian mentioned that if you were in college and you presented a paper that had plagiarized
material on it...
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: you`d be expelled.
PINSKY: ... you would be expelled in most schools. That`s right. In my profession, and I assume in yours as well, Sara, if you plagiarize, and
don`t give proper attribution to anything you say, it is a big deal.
AZARI: Absolutely.
PINSKY: I have to bring in Erin Elmore, she`s a Trump supporter and former "Apprentice" contestant. So, Erin, let`s operate on the assumption that
portions were in fact plagiarize. Maybe not her fault, maybe some speechwriter handed it to her. Is it a big deal?
ERIN ELMORE, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I don`t think it`s a big deal at all. First of all, she`s not running for office. Second of all, the very speech that
they`re saying she plagiarized, Michelle Obama had the same criticism. They say that an author by the name of Saul Alinsky she was plagiarized.
So, let`s be careful who we point the finger at here. Moreover, Barack Obama has taken a few words from Deval Patrick. And in 1998, our friend,
Joe Biden, had to stop, quick, drop out of the presidential election because of plagiarism. So, let`s be careful who we point the finger at
here.
PINSKY: Well, I mean, you`re making -- your point is sort of interesting. I`d love to get the text on that Alinsky piece. In fact, if my staff can
take a look, see if we can find that during the break, I`d like to see that.
But you`re also talking about a presidential candidate dropping out of the race because of plagiarism. Should there be any consequences for someone as
it pertains to this?
ELMORE: I don`t think she really did anything wrong. He`s the thing. She`s talking about motherhood, perseverance, child bearing, a success story.
This is about 3 percent of the speech, and the fact that we`re tearing her apart. She`s not really in the limelight here, nor running for president.
What has she really done wrong? By the way, hold on. She had a speechwriter and so did Michelle Obama. So, perhaps the speechwriters are the ones to
blame, but really I do not think Melania did anything wrong here.
PINSKY: All right. Spirit, I want you to get a chance here. I mean, let`s say it was the speechwriter even. If you or I were to say something that
somebody handed to us and we didn`t really give it proper attribution, even we hadn`t written we`d be in big trouble.
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You`re absolutely, Dr. Drew. And here`s the thing for me. The speech in and of itself isn`t the issue, although, you know,
with programs like turn it in which even high school students use nowadays and plagiarism is something that you can be expelled from schools in.
So, you`re talking about consequences here, we have to expect our president and the first lady to be held to the highest standard, and it`s not the
speech that`s at issue here. It`s that they are trying to cover it up and minimize it. So, either you`re a plagiarist or you`re a liar.
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: Exactly.
SPIRIT: But it`s one of the two let`s deal with that.
AZARI: And you can`t -- you can`t just minimize it and just say that just because she`s not running for office that this is somehow OK.
PINSKY: All right. Well.
AZARI: It indicates a broken moral compass.
PINSKY: I will -- all right. Let`s table this for a second. I`ve got a plagiarism expert here who says, in fact, this was, part of the RNC speech
was hijacked was plagiarized. He is here with me after this.
And I don`t like the idea that, hey, if you did something wrong, that`s not a big deem, but you covered it up. No, no, no. If you did something wrong
we should be talking about that as well.
And later, our sheriff slams Black Lives Matter blaming the entire group for, quote, "anti-cop sentiments." Back after this.
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: If you want someone to fight for you and your country, I can assure you he`s the guy.
(APPLAUSE)
He will never, ever give up, and most importantly, he will never, ever let you down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And as you heard from Brian on the floor of Cleveland, that Melania`s speech was well-received, but that portion is being scrutinized
and sometimes mocked, its words that sounded a lot like a Rick Ashley hit song from the `80s. Here it is.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
PINSKY: Back with Erin, and Sara, and Spirit. And yesterday, before the speech, Melania spoke to NBC`s Matt Lauer. Here`s a little bit of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT LAUER, NBC`S THE TODAY SHOW HOST: Your wife is going to get to speak to the delegates about you.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Right.
LAUER: Has she gone over the speech with you? Did you practice it on the plane?
M. TRUMP: I read once over it. And that`s all, because I wrote it, and with a little help as possible, so.
LAUER: Are you nervous? It would be OK to be nervous.
M. TRUMP: No. I`m excited.
LAUER: Yes?
M. TRUMP: Yes. It`s an exciting night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Spirit, she said she wrote, wrote it by herself. Most of it. Maybe the part she didn`t write is the part that was handed to her that,
well, hey, Sara, you`re laughing at me, but that`s a possibility here. You`re an attorney, you know.
SPIRIT: Well, I`m laughing, too. I`m trying to figure out did they -- have we all been duped? Is that like the Freudian slip for the Rick Ross? Like,
did we just get Rick Ross? Because that is like, the biggest joke on the internet, like, this song always being squeezed in to the real deal. You
know, have they told on themselves here? This is really interesting to me.
PINSKY: Now, let me bring in a plagiarism expert. This is Jonathan Bailey, he`s a, as I said, a plagiarism expert, an expert witness, and founder of
something called plagiarismtoday.com.
Now I want to revisit again the definition of plagiarize means to, quote, "Use the words or ideas of another person as if they were your own." So,
Jonathan, based on that definition, Melania`s speech, plagiarized, yes or no?
JONATHAN BAILEY, PLAGIARISM EXPERT: Almost certainly. The bigger issue is determining who is ultimately responsible for the plagiarism at this time.
[19:15:00] PINSKY: In other words, if she was handed a plagiarized piece of copy, she`s not the plagiarist.
BAILEY: Not in this case. With political speech, in particular, we have open expectation this will written by speechwriters and ghost writers, and
so forth, so, yes, the author of it would be, the person ultimately responsible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, and now she`s made the statement to Matt Lauer that she actually wrote it with very little help. And that worse?
PINSKY: Well, very little. But most of it. Again, you`re putting the screws to that as though every word was written by her. She didn`t say
that. But it begs the issue. For Jonathan, can you plagiarize just a little?
BAILEY: There are definitely shades of plagiarism to be certain. Yes, you can, in some cases, plagiarize, and there is such thing as accidental
plagiarism even. However, this doesn`t feel like a small plagiarism or an accidental one.
PINSKY: And by accidental you mean there`s things that are just in the cultural discourse so commonly that we just all spit these things out and
then it`s plagiarized, but then we don`t know it.
BAILEY: Yes. Well, it`s not -- it`s not so much that.
AZARI: I have a question for Jonathan.
PINSKY: Finish your thought, sorry. Jonathan, go ahead.
BAILEY: I was just going to say if it`s something that`s in called to a lexicon, a lot of times that can`t be used to execution and not be
considered plagiarism. But there are times where you just failed to cite something adequately up to the standards, for example, that it could be
accidental plagiarism and we see that more in academia with poor paraphrasing and so forth.
PINSKY: Yes. Right. Sara, question.
AZARI: Yes. You know, one of the things that stuck out in my mind, and I, as an expert, I want to know what you think about it, is the specific piece
where she says "Your word is your bond." That`s not something that you just commonly walk around say in order to convey this idea, right?
ELMORE: My word is my bond.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In some instance, it is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the comment, that`s part of the culture lexicon as Jonathan would say?
BAILEY: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
ELMORE: That`s absolutely protocol to a lexicon, "My word is my bond."
PINSKY: Go ahead, Erin. I mean, excuse me, go ahead -- Jonathan, go ahead.
ELMORE: Pretty common.
BAILEY: I agree, that`s a fairly common expression especially in political speeches. I suspect that others have used that exact expression. It`s not
really any one expression that worries me with this. It`s the combination of both the copied verbiage, the copied ideas and just how closely the two
speeches mirror.
PINSKY: Erin, again, quote for me where you said this stuff all came from, someone by the name of Saul Alinsky, is that right?
ELMORE: Saul Alinsky.
PINSKY: Alinsky. Saul Alinsky
ELMORE: A-l-i-n-s-k-y. A-l -- yes. Also, wait...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hang on, how did you get that attribute? Where did you get that quote from? Did you look it up? I`ve been trying to find it. We can`t find
it.
ELMORE: I`ll find it after we get off the air. I`m standing here talking to you right now.
PINSKY: That won`t help me.
ELMORE: I swear I`ll find it. But wait, I have a big question here. Are we saying she quoted the 80s top icon Rick Ashley, are we saying she quoted
Michelle Obama because now I`m really confused.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Spirit.
SPIRIT: Both. And at the end of the day, again, it`s not about and everybody wants to minimize and roll over this. This is an issue of
integrity. So, you can try to minimize and you can try to joke about it, but if the House is going to be lived in by these two individuals, and we
can`t get even them to be real about a speech, how many other things are we in store for that could spell disaster?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
SPIRIT: Her calling the first lady.
PINSKY: Hang on, as it pertains -- Jonathan, let me ask you this. When it comes to politics, when do these things matter or when does just seem to
pass on without notice?
BAILEY: Well, the unfortunate reality going back over 20 years, going all the way back to the original Joe Biden plagiarism scandal in `87, it`s that
plagiarism scandals really almost never change the count of an election.
Candidates that are forced out due to plagiarism account, usually we`re on the back heel anyways. I`ve never -- I mean, Obama face a scandal in 2008.
McCain was accused of plagiarism that same year. In the end, all these political plagiarism scandals have had almost no bearing in the outcome of
the election.
They`re just scandals we got dropped after a few days and then they become just another insult to hurl at your opponent among the countless others
that they`ll attack on over the week, weeks and months.
PINSKY: And to be fair, it`s kind to be hard. When people up there speaking publicly time and again, and they`re handed lots of copy and
they`ve got to check every word of the copy to make sure they got to trust to whoever`s handing them the copy that they`re not ripping off the speech
from somebody else. I think that`s a reasonable thing.
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: And, Dr. Drew...
SPIRIT: No, you have to actually write it when you say you wrote it. That`s the reasonable thing.
PINSKY: Last thought, Sara.
SPIRIT: Then stand by that.
AZARI: And, you know...
SPIRIT: If you didn`t say it, don`t stand by it. It`s that simple. Integrity.
AZARI: No, I`m with -- I`m with -- exactly. It`s like, you have a broken moral compass when you do this. But here`s the thing. Here`s the thing. My
response to Erin...
(CROSSTALK)
ELMORE: She has a broken compass, really, really?
AZARI: Yes, really, Erin.
PINSKY: Sara, finish your thought, then I`m going to give Erin last thoughts.
(CROSSTALK)
ELMORE: Don`t cut me, I`m not running for president.
PINSKY: Sara, go ahead! Sara, go! Sara, please.
AZARI: OK. Just because there`s precedent in someone else has done it, doesn`t make this right.
[19:20:01] PINSKY: All right. Fair enough.
AZARI: OK?
PINSKY: Fair enough. Erin, last thoughts.
ELMORE: To say that Melania Trump has a broken moral compass or has done anything wrong here is absolutely improper. She`s not running for
president. She`s a wife. She`s a mother. She was thrust into the spotlight because of her husband.
Do not let your feelings about Donald Trump let impact how you feel about his wife. She`s done nothing wrong here, and she`s a first lady and she
will be our first lady, so the liberal media can continue to skewer her, but she has done nothing wrong.
PINSKY: And we will leave it right there. Thank you, Erin.
Next up, he may have been the real surrogate at the convention. He`s a lawman who blasted the Black Lives Matter movement. And later, police say a
young mother admits to killing her own children. Does she deserve our sympathy? We have this sorted story after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:24:58] DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY SHERIFF: I would like to make something very clear. Blue lives matter in America!
(APPLAUSE)
There is some good news out of Baltimore, Maryland, as Lieutenant Brian Rice was acquitted on all charges.
(APPLAUSE)
What we witnessed in Ferguson and Baltimore and Baton Rouge was a collapse of the social order, so many of the accidents of the occupy movement and
Black Lives Matter transcends peaceful protest and violates the code of conduct we rely on. I call it anarchy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s Milwaukee Sheriff David Clarke slamming Black Lives Matter.
Back with Spirit, and joining me Melina Abdullah, organizer and original member of Black Lives Matter, she is department chair of Pan-African
studies at Cal State Los Angeles, via Skype, I have Stacey Washington, conservative talk show host, member of Project 21, a black leadership
group, and our friend John Cardillo, former NYPD officer.
Melina, I want to start with you and get your reactions to the sheriff`s comments.
MELINA ABDULLAH, BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT MEMBER & ORGANIZER: Well, I think that they`re hugely problematic. I think it`s problematic any time
you compare an occupation that you choose to the immutable characteristics of someone`s identity.
So, when we say black lives matter, we`re talking about the protection, we`re talking about ending state violence against people who are born into
this world as black.
Of course, we don`t condone violence against anyone, but it`s an unfair comparison to make between black people and people who choose a profession
of being a police officer.
PINSKY: Melina, how about his criticisms of the consequences of some of the rhetoric?
ABDULLAH: So, I think that it`s really important that we understand that there have been criticisms of police since police and police abuse began.
So, we can go back to the origins of policing and talk about critiques of policing. It`s really important, also, that we understand that those who`ve
committed acts of violence against police are in no way associated with Black Lives Matter as a network or the Black Lives Matter movement.
And so, it seems that this is kind of a contrived criticism of a movement that is essentially a peace movement in order to put that movement down and
allow law enforcement to run rampant in black communities and continue to engage communities in ways that are brutal, that are oppressive, and that
are repressive.
PINSKY: Stacey -- sorry, sorry, I didn`t mean to interrupt you, but I want to get Stacey`s reaction. Go ahead.
STACEY WASHINGTON, SONSERVATOVE TALK SHOW HOST: Well, my father is in law enforcement and he`s black, so the idea that he chose his profession and
now had to choose between proper policing methods and whether or not police brutality is an issue, it`s ridiculous.
Look, I was here in Ferguson, I lived here in St. Louis, 20 miles away from Ferguson, and I saw Black Lives Matter protesters with the signs in hand,
yelling and screaming in the faces of cops saying, "we know where you live, we`re going to kill your wife. We`re going to kill your kid," and then the
chant.
These are well documented. "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon. What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now." Now we have the dead cops,
and now people are backing off and saying, this isn`t my thing.
I actually understand the empathy behind Black Lives Matter. Being a black woman and having to pull over in numerous times, I get it. But this is the
wrong way to go about it. Now that we have police officers are being ambushed, sniper attacked, these are people too.
PINSKY: All right, Spirit. Help me settle the score here.
SPIRIT: You know, I`m like Stacey, both my parents come out from law enforcement, Dr. Drew, my mother and my father with both over 20 years of
service, both injured in the line of duty. So, I get blue.
But let me just say this. If you can stand up and cheer at blue lives matter, but you boo and you want locked up individuals over black lives
matter, then the operative word here is "black", and you really need to do a gut check here. Just think about that.
PINSKY: John, yes. I`m with you. And, John, again, I feel like this conversation is getting to be about the rhetoric and the consequences of
the rhetoric. Isn`t that really what is at issue?
JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Yes. I mean, look, I`ll go out there on a limb and say maybe the initial motivations of Black Lives Matter were
pure, but they`ve become a hate group. Stacey is right. "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want them? Now."
DeRay Mckesson, a leader of the movement constantly tweeting support for Joanne Chesimard, the convicted cop killer on the FBI most wanted terror
list. "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon."
Ezra Mosseri (Ph) came up with that one, another Black Lives Matter supporter out of St. Louis who is a Palestinian and terrorist sympathizer.
And leaders being dishonest when she says that the movement is now about peace. It`s not. Sheriff Clarke was 100 percent right.
PINSKY: Well, I`m going to give Melina -- I want you to respond to that, Melina. But let me just, though.
[19:29:59] I get a little confused because it`s a -- I kind of say, it`s a hard thing for the movement in that there`s no sort of, like, policy
statement or, you know, exactly what it stands for gets a little cloudy at time. How do you...
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: There is actually a statement.
PINSKY: Where do you find that? Tell me about that.
ABDULLAH: So blacklivesmatter.com actually did release a statement. And it`s really important. I find it very disheartening and very disturbing
that those who claim to be law enforcement who are charged with doing investigatory work have not figured out the difference between those who
want to stand up and engage in protest and actual members of Black Lives Matter as a network and as an organization.
PINSKY: Slow -- slow down. Wait, Melina. So there`s two different issues, you`re saying? One is people that are out there, that are representing your
organization, and people who are really out there protesting that go to excess?
ABDULLAH: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Yeah.
ABDULLAH: And the chants that keep getting brought up are the same chants that was that was documented one time more than six months ago, and not
associated with an official chapter of Black Lives Matter.
So, it`s as if Black Lives Matter is responsible for every black person who protests. We don`t do that. We -- we`re -- they want us to think about
bad...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: John, before you get on, I want to give Stacy a chance. She`s reacting. Go ahead, Stacy.
STACY WASHINGTON, CONSERVATIVE TALK SHOW HOST: Look, Dr. Drew...
PINSKY: Yeah?
WASHINGTON: Wouldn`t it be fantastic if we could come to the middle of the conversation instead of saying, some of us saying we heard the chants,
because we did. We heard them in Dallas. Those chants were going on in Dallas just before the sniper opened fire, and then...
ABDULLAH: It`s not documented.
WASHINGTON: ... instead of discussing that -- yeah, it`s documented.
ABDULLAH: No, it`s not.
WASHINGTON: I -- I know people who live in Dallas who were at the protest. I don`t...
ABDULLAH: It`s not documented anywhere.
WASHINGTON: I don`t need to argue about it.
ABDULLAH: Just because you know a single person claimed the they heard the chant. That`s not documentation, that`s called hearsay.
WASHINGTON: Okay.
ABDULLAH: That`s -- that`s not documentation.
WASHINGTON: Oh, sure. So, it`s hearsay if I hear someone says to me that, you know -- that`s irrelevant. I`m going to make my point which is the
place for conversation and discussion is in the center.
We have things that we agree on, which is that cops should be held to a higher standard, that police officers who have done things wrong in the
line of duty should be prosecuted. That police officers should be offered protection for reporting on other officers who may not be adhering to the
standards.
PINSKY: Yeah.
WASHINGTON: We also agree it is wrong to engage in rhetoric that causes the police to come under attack. There are places for common ground here, and
what I`d love to see, is able to see we could come out of our corners screaming all lives matter and swinging our swords on the right, and on the
left, screaming black lives matter and ignoring the fact that there are people out there who are in the middle like myself.
PINSKY: Alright.
WASHINGTON: Absolutely, I`m a conservative, but this is wrong the way we`re discussing it. It`s not doing justice in the situation.
PINSKY: Well, I hope -- I hope we are doing justice by discussing it. Maybe the rhetoric gets excessive. Next up, I have the sheriff, again, mixing it
up with a CNN anchor. I`ll show you what happened.
And later, I have a tragic story of a young mother accused of killing her own children, and that is not the half of it. We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:35:00] DON LEMON: I spoke to the heads of the Sheriff`s Department, the Police Department, and the State Police down there, and they told us how
their hearts were reeling. Their message is peace and coming together in the country. What`s your message?
DAVID CLARKE: You don`t believe that for one minute, do you?
LEMON: That their message is?
CLARKE: Yeah.
LEMON: That`s what they said to me.
CLARKE: Okay.
LEMON: Yeah, I believe them.
CLARKE: Okay, any protests over the deaths of these cops today in Baton Rouge?
LEMON: I don`t know that. I don`t know that.
CLARKE: Any riots or protests over the police officers in Dallas, Texas?
LEMON: What are you asking?
CLARKE: It`s very simple question.
LEMON: I asked you if, what`s your message to the people, their message is one of peace. What is your message?
CLARKE: My message has been clear from day one two years ago. This anti-cop sentiment from this hateful ideology called Black Lives Matter has fueled
this rage against the American police officer. I predicted this two years ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A tense exchange between Don Lemon and Milwaukee Sheriff David Clarke, Clarke blaming Black Lives Matter for the recent shootings of
police in Dallas and Baton Rouge.
I`m back with Spirit, Melina, Stacy, John. Stacy, are they responsible for the violence?
WASHINGTON: The person who does the violence is the one who is responsible for it. Now, our people in Black Lives Matter or who are standing next to
Black Lives Matter at protest or somehow affiliated with Black Lives Matter by simple proximity -- proximity to Black Lives Matter, culpable because
the language has been awful and the rhetoric is very, very difficult to stomach?
Yes, absolutely. So, if you`re not a part of that, then why not denounce it strongly when it happens. A Black Lives Matter has an amazing media
presence. They could put this perception down with a very strong statement every time it comes up, but that`s not what`s happening, and that`s why
people think it`s a part of their movement.
PINSKY: And John, you`ve been trying to ring it with a comment, go ahead.
JOHN CARRILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: You know, I have to disagree with Stacy here. It is a part of the movement. You know, when law enforcement goes
after La Cosa Nostra, they invoke racketeering and influenced corrupt organization statute. Everyone involved is involved.
If you`re -- if you`re promoting violence, if you are incentivizing violence, if you`re out there among those committing violence and you`re
not turning them into police, you`re part of the violence, and -- and I think that David Clarke was fed up.
I -- I spent some time with Sheriff Clarke in March in D.C. I`ve interviewed him. He`s an intense guy, but he`s a very professional man.
For him to lose his composure like that, he had enough, and he researches this daily.
[19:40:00]
That exchange, it`s important to note this, Dr. Drew, give me a couple of seconds, was -- was in response to a study out of Harvard University by a
black professor that found no racial bias in police use of deadly force against black men.
Don Lemon was trying to -- to spin the study. Sheriff Clarke wouldn`t let him. That`s what led to Sheriff Clarke being upset. So, I`m with Sheriff
Clarke on this one a 100 percent.
PINSKY: Melina, your response to that.
ABDULLAH: Sure. I think that what Don Lemon did well is pointing out that there is data that shows that black people are attacked and targeted by
police at much greater numbers than any other group.
And I think that it`s also important to note why there is such intense sentiment around Black Lives Matter. It`s really important for us to
understand what Sheriff Clarke did and what police have been doing and uplifting the lives of police officers while minimizing the lives of black
people.
If they really believe what they say they believe, then just as they are mourning the deaths of offices, they should also be mourning the deaths of
black people who were killed by officers.
Why are flags not at half-mast when Trayvon Martin is killed or when Tamir Rice that`s 12 years old is killed or when Aiyana Jones that`s seven years
old is killed? We should be mourning that. We shouldn`t be celebrating when no one suffers consequences for the death of Freddie Gray.
PINSKY: Now, more about the rhetoric. Let me show you what one of the Black Lives Matter acted and said on Fox News just last week. Take a look at
this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To abolish the police, period. Abolish the police, disarm the police and we need to come up with community solutions for
transformative justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Melina, I`m really concerned about that kind of rhetoric because, I mean, I study behavior, I study humans, I study primates, and even in
primate pods, a policeman or woman always emerges to keep things stable in the pod.
That`s part of -- that`s natural as well as something that seems sort of pragmatic. What do you say to people that advocate that kind of thing?
ABDULLAH: So, I think that it`s important that we understand the police abolition movement. No one is saying end public safety. No one is saying
that there doesn`t need to be a mechanism in place for communities to be safe.
But I think what the sister was saying on the clip that you showed is that policing as we know it in this country is fundamentally flawed, and we need
to get to deeper solutions, solutions that are more holistic in nation.
When we study public safety, we understand that most crime comes from, you know, a source that if we provide people with a livable wage jobs, with
educational opportunities, if we fund things like intervention and prevention work rather than just amping up the militarization of police, we
actually do much more in the long term in creating safe communities.
PINSKY: All right. Leaving it at that. Thank you, guys. More to be said on that one day soon.
And a tragic story, three children dead, a young mother who married her stepfather, and more shocking admissions after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:45:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH PILKINGTON: I`m adjusting as well as I possibly can at the loss of my three children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joseph Pilkington in court talked about his three little boys, who his wife, Brittany, confessed to killing over the course of 13
months. Pilkington also referred to his daughter, who is now in custody of relatives.
PILKINGTON: I have a 4-year-old girl. I would like to take care of her, you know, as she grows up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both Pilkington parents are in jail. Brittany accused of murder, and Joe charged with sexual battery for getting Brittany pregnant
while he was her stepfather.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes, you heard that right. Joseph Pilkington raised Brittany as stepdaughter, then she ends up marrying him. The 44-year-old pleaded guilty
to unlawful sexual contact when she was just 17.
Police say she confessed to having suffocated their three young sons, allegedly all because she was jealous of the attention paid to them.
I`m back with Sara and Spirit. I`ve also got Katie Wedell, reporter, for the Springfield News-Sun. She has been covering the story. Katie, help me
with some background of the story. This is wild.
KATIE WEDELL, SPRINGFIELD NEWS-SUN REPORTER: Yeah. The story goes back to when Brittany Pilkington was a child, and her mother was in a relationship
with Joseph.
He lived in her home, as like you said, served as stepfather figure. At some point, the relationship between him and the mother was over, but he
continued to live in the home, and eventually started dating Brittany instead, and she became pregnant at 17 with their first child, and they
married.
They went on to have two more children before the death of their infant, Niall, in July of 2014. He - he stopped breathing while Brittany was home
alone with the infant, and there was no cause of death.
Everyone basically thought it was sudden infant death syndrome, just a tragedy, until about nine months later when their 4-year-old, or, sorry, 3
at the time, Gavin, in April 2015 also died under similar circumstances. Brittany was home alone, and he stopped breathing, and he -- he died.
PINSKY: And, Katie, nobody -- nobody looked further on this? Nobody sort of did any sort of forensic...
WEDELL: They did.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
[19:50:00]
WEDELL: Yeah. There was -- there was suspicion at this point. The prosecutors and the children services folks were -- were very concerned to
have two boys died in the same home under similar circumstances.
They did remove their daughter at that time from the home, put her in foster care, and Brittany was pregnant at the time. As soon as she gave
birth to their fourth child, you know, he was removed and put in foster care as well.
But a judge a couple months later said there was just no evidence of foul play. So it was ruled undetermined cause of death. So, the judge said there
is nothing I can do.
PINSKY: And then she -- and then she eventually admitted to all this, correct?
WEDELL: Yeah. Six days after they got the kids back, the third one died and she allegedly confessed to killing all three of them.
PINSKY: Alright. Thank you, Katie. Immediately following the death of the first two sons, police say Brittany`s affect was described as flat. She
also told -- told prosecutors she was depressed and overwhelmed.
But that Joseph, the stepfather, husband, father, lover, whatever he is, refused to let her get treatment. Spirit, this is like an encyclopedia of
psychopathology of the situation. How do we...
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, it is.
PINSKY: ... here`s one of the things people are struggling with. This woman is the product of this nefarious environment, and yet she is a murderer.
How do you reconcile these things?
SPIRIT: Well, it`s because the general public doesn`t understand trauma based responses, Dr. Drew, and this is why mental health is so important to
come to the forefront of American conversation so we can teach people this.
Because what we know about individuals who have sexual abuse trauma is that it is not uncommon for them to feel jealousy when their abuser shows others
attention.
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: They don`t all become murders.
PINSKY: Yeah -- yeah. Spirit is speaking a factual point which is true. But the issue is, though, now she`s a murderer. Now it`s on the legal system.
It`s over now. She could have had treatment before. Too late.
SPIRIT: And the general public doesn`t get it. They don`t know. And so all they will see is this woman who murdered her three children when they don`t
understand that that woman never became a woman. She was checked out a long time ago when she was a victim of sexual abuse as a child.
PINSKY: Sara, you`re raising issue with this. Sara, go ahead. Go ahead.
SARA AZARI, LOS ANGELES STATE AND FEDERAL CRIMINAL DEFENCE LAWYER: She was 17, not 7. Okay. I have a real issue...
PINSKY: Well, we don`t know...
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: Dr. Drew, please don`t take the plastic brain out and, like, break it out for me that, like, the brain doesn`t develop until it`s 18 or
whatever...
PINSKY: This one?
AZARI: Yeah. That one -- that one. Put it down. Okay. Because...
PINSKY: I don`t know, Sara. I`m picking it up again.
AZARI: ... because -- because she could be -- yeah, I said put it down. She could be 17 and 364 days old. And the law says...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: No, but Sara, the speculation is 9.
SPIRIT: She was pregnant at 17. If she was pregnant at 17, then he was having sexual relations with her as a child.
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: No. 17 is a minor. She`s pregnant at 17. Do the math. Do the math here.
PINSKY: You`re right, Sara.
AZARI: It didn`t take her from 9 to 17 to get pregnant.
PINSKY: Alright. Listen. We`re gonna take break. We`ll get back to this. We`ll get back to me, my brain, Sara, Spirit, and the issue is, this guy
was her stepfather and he ends up dating his stepdaughter. It gets weird. Let`s talk about it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:55:00]
PINSKY: Prosecutors say Brittney Pilkington admitted she suffocated her three sons because she was jealous of the attention they received from her
husband, Joseph.
She has pleaded not guilty to three counts of aggravated murder but could face a death sentence if convicted. I`m back with Sara and Spirit. And so,
Spirit, the question to you is, based on the all these angles we were just looking at in the last segment. If she did this, does she deserve to die?
SPIRIT: I don`t think she deserves to die, Dr. Drew, but I do think that she needs incarceration. And unfortunately, I hope there she gets the
treatment that she desperately needs. She won`t -- she broke the law.
PINSKY: You`re probably right, but Sara, I want to ask you about the husband, the stepfather, husband. Again, my head spins with this. He
pleaded guilty to having sex with her when she was a minor.
Now, you split hairs about what that age that was and this was before they were married. He will have to register the sex offender for the next 15
years. But my question is, if, again, making assumptions, if this guy had done something prior to that, is this all that should happen to this guy?
He may be the source of all of this.
AZARI: Of course. But, you know, we have to look at what`s in evidence, and in evidence in this case against him...
SPIRIT: Oh, wow (ph).
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: Wait, no.
SPIRIT: What a slime ball. He should be in jail, too. He`s slime.
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: I`m not judging him morally. I`m talking about from a legal perspective.
SPIRIT: I am. I am. He married and had three kids with your stepdaughter.
AZARI: But -- but in my world you have to have evidence. You can`t -- you can`t proceed on speculation.
SPIRIT: The DNA. That`s your stepdaughter that you raised. That is not in dispute here.
AZARI: Look -- look. We don`t know when he first had sex with her. We don`t know how old she was.
SPIRIT: I don`t care if he had sex with her when she was 50 years old. That was your stepdaughter that you raised. The boundary issue.
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: A total annihilation of safety and parental roles. It is a moral crime. I will stand up and say it.
AZARI: It`s a moral crime, but I don`t work in the court of morals, I work in the court of law. Okay. And it is not in evidence.
SPIRIT: You can have it then, I do.
PINSKY: But Sara, let me finish -- finish your thoughts. So would there have to be evidentiary material to really go after this guy. But even then,
it`s so far in the past. This guy who is potentially the source of this whole tragedy. He may just have to register as a sex offender and that`s
it.
AZARI: That might be it. Keep in mind, it`s a misdemeanor charge, not a felony as we often see in these cases. And like he said, the offense
conduct might be from many, many years ago. But in these cases, I think...
PINSKY: Got to leave it there. Got to go.
AZARI: Okay.
PINSKY: I`m out. Thank you all. Thank you panel. We`ll see you. Thank you all for watching us. Nancy Grace is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:00:00]
END
