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Dr. Drew
Unarmed Black Man Shot by Police is Behavioral Therapist Attempting to Help a Patient; Revenge Plot Examined; More Details on Baton Rouge Shooter; Pregnant Orange County Woman Brutally Attacked in Her Own Home
Aired July 21, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL SHOW HOST: A black man, hands in the air, he is unarmed, here I am discussing this again, shot by police. This guy is a
behavioral therapist who was simply trying to help one of his patients, who happened to be autistic and escaped from a group home.
Police were called when someone reported a man with a gun. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 911 call was received about a man with a gun threatening to commit suicide.
CHARLES KINSEY, BEHAVIORAL THERAPIST: I stick up my hands, and I said, no, I just got shot. And I`m saying, sir, why did you shoot me? And his words,
to me, he said, I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me, Evy Poumpouras, special agent, secret service, Randy Sutton, former lieutenant with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police
Department, and spokesperson blue lives matter, and Tariq Nasheed, filmmaker, "Hidden Colors 4," they`re available, that`s available now on
Amazon.
Evy, this guy appeared to be doing everything right, and yet, he still got shot.
EVY POUMPOURAS, FORMER SPECIAL AGENT& SECRET AGENT: Yes, you know, and the bulk of what we need to see is the actual video where he does get shot. You
know, what we see now, his hands up, he`s lying there, he`s trying to communicate with the police. Police are not listening.
And that happens when you get this tunnel vision. You will hear, you know, there`s a man with a weapon. You arrive on the scene, and you got in your
mind, this is what I`m going to, a man with a gun on the scene.
And you`re not able to absorb what`s actually happening. They are not listening to the man who is lying on the floor. He does have his hands up.
That`s, you know, this isn`t good. But again, having said that, I really would like to see the video of when he takes the shot. Was the affirmative
movement made? What happened that cause him to take the shot?
If we see that video and we see this man still laying with his hands up, then, obviously, that`s a significant issue.
PINSKY: Randy, do you agree?
POUMPOURAS: And charges should be pressed.
RANDY SUTTON, RETIRED LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE: Well, there`s a bunch of issues here with this one. I`m getting some information; I`ve recently
received it actually in the last 10 minutes, that the officer was actually trying to shoot the autistic man. Because he felt that he`s used a...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yes, Randy, let me -- let me interrupt you. Let me interrupt. I can confirm that. I heard the same thing. It is just in. It`s that the
police union chief, not the police chief of that police department, the police union chief says that the officer thought the autistic man was about
to hurt Mr. Kinsey, the man with his arms up, so he had fired at the autistic man, missed the autistic man, but hit Kinsey allegedly by
accident. Randy, is that what you`re hearing?
SUTTON: I`m hearing the same thing.
PINSKY: Still not good.
SUTTON: So, once again -- no, no, it`s still not good. This is not good in a lot of different ways. And there is doing to be some serious -- there`s
going to be some serious training issues going on here. There`s going to be some serious looking at this entire situation, as it should be.
This needs to be examined. It needs to be investigated. And it needs to be -- we need to wait until the investigation is complete...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Tariq, by guess.
SUTTON: ... that`s what we`ve got really some harsh -- I`m sorry? Say that -- say that again?
PINSKY: I`m going to get Tariq into this, because I`m wondering if he`s buying that explanation. Go ahead.
TARIQ NASHEED, FILMMAKER: No, I`m absolutely not buying it at all. Whatever black people who are unarmed, whenever we get shot or killed by
race soldiers posing as police officers, there`s always an excuse. If we`re not criminalized, they always say it`s some type of accident.
Now, they came out today saying that it was an accident, that he shot Mr. Kinsey. But Mr. Kinsey was shot at three times, and also, after he was
shot, he was handcuffed. So, you don`t handcuff people you accidently shoot.
This man was targeted. And let`s go back. Let`s put this thing in the bigger context, because in 2006, the FBI put out a report stating that
white supremacist groups have infiltrated law enforcement. So, now, we have a bunch of suspected race soldiers acting as cops targeting black people.
And nothing has been gone about that.
SUTTON: Oh, come on.
PINSKY: Randy, go ahead.
NASHEED: Get out of here.
SUTTON: Come on, get off that. That`s a bunch of crap. Race soldiers? Police officers out there giving their lives in the line of duty?
(CROSSTALK)
NASHEED: There`s nothing with soldiers. There`s nothing wrong police, sir.
SUTTON: Are they race soldiers?
NASHEED: I like police officers.
SUTTON: You have prejudice and bias.
NASHEED: Sir, I like police officers, but shooting unarmed people, that`s not police work. That`s nothing to do with the Constitution and that`s the
problem we already have.
SUTTON: Of course -- there are issues here. We are...
(CROSSTALK)
NASHEED: I`m not saying -- people are dying.
SUTTON: There is no issue here.
NASHEED: The issue of people dying is not a minimal issue. With an issue that people are dying and killing people and executing people that has
nothing to do with police work. There`s nothing in the policeman that said execute unarmed people.
SUTTON: Who got executed? Did someone executed here that I didn`t see?
NASHEED: Just the last few weeks alone, Philando Castile, Alton Sterling, other black people.
SUTTON: And how do you know they were executed?
(CROSSTALK)
NASHEED: Well, I have eyes...
SUTTON: Did you do the investigation?
PINSKY: All right, guys.
NASHEED: I have eyes.
SUTTON: Like everybody else.
PINSKY: One second, gentlemen, you got to speak one at a time. The delay is affecting you guys. I want to get Evy in here. Evy, I know you want to
comment, but I want you also to tell me something. This guy shot in the leg, and yet, to Tariq`s point, the guy laid on the ground for 20 minutes.
And let me tell you, it`s a position, you`re lying on the ground with a bullet in your leg, you can get something called compartment syndrome, you
can lose the leg, you can get kidney failure, you can die from an unintended wound to your limb. That`s a -- to me, is a big part of the
story as well.
POUMPOURAS: Yes. That`s the significant issue. Just to jump on what Tariq said. When you do shoot someone, you can cuff them until you assess the
situation. But you have to give them proper medical treatment within an significant -- and within immediate time. Sitting there 20 minutes when you
didn`t get treatment, that`s an issue.
(CROSSTALK)
NASHEED: But why are you cuffing the person if it`s an accident?
POUMPOURAS: Sir, no, just hold on a moment. Let me just speak here for a moment.
NASHEED: If it`s an accident, why are you cuffing the person that he accidentally shot?
POUMPOURAS: Tariq, Tariq, I gave you the respect of speaking, but you`re not letting me finish.
NASHEED: Go ahead, ma`am.
POUMPOURAS: We`re on national TV.
NASHEED: Go ahead, ma`am.
POUMPOURAS: So, you know, so let`s just take our turns. So, the other thing with the shot with the union member speaking saying that he`s
actually trying to protect (AUDIO GAP) problem because that goes back to police training or the lack of.
If he`s actually shooting -- you know, he`s actually shot the wrong person, that`s a problem. Now we`re going back to, like, you don`t know how to use
nor weapon properly, you don`t know how to use your discharge. You let out three rounds and they hit the wrong person. That also goes back, they are
going to look back at this person shooting records. They are going to look at...
(CROSSTALK)
NASHEED: Black. The wrong people always happen to be black and that`s the problem. Law enforcement or the race soldiers posing as cops. They know not
to shoot other races of people.
(CROSSTALK)
POUMPOURAS: You know what?
NASHEED: The only people who are getting unarmed -- the only unarmed people getting shot just happen to be black. So, either we have a big
coincidence or we have a system of white supremacy that we need to replace for the sake of justice.
(CROSSTALK)
SUTTON: Really? You didn`t see last week the white guy that got shot?
NASHEED: What white guy who got shot?
(CROSSTALK)
POUMPOURAS: Tariq, you`re using very blanket statements.
SUTTON: The one in Fresno that you saw that of course, didn`t make a bit of difference to you. The white, oh, no, no, white male was shot.
NASHEED: Well, they have to negotiate -- they have to negotiate with that gentleman for a long time, and he was a white sacrifice, in the system of
white supremacy you will always sacrifice a handful of white people, but the vast majority of the people who are being targeted by race soldiers
just happened to be black.
TPINSKY: Tariq, are you suggesting...
(CROSSTALK)
SUTTON: So, is the police officer who shot the man today, was he white?
NASHEED: Yes, he was, from what I understand. He was a white Latino from what I understand.
SUTTON: Well, you`re ask -- once again, you show ignorance because no, he was not white. He was Hispanic, but good try.
NASHEED: Hispanic is not a race, sir. He was a white Latino from what I understand. And again, we have a system of white supremacy where it is OK,
and you can kill black people with impunity and that`s the big issue that we need to address and come up with ways to punish these race solders who
harmed black people all the time.
POUMPOURAS: You know what, Tariq?? You are calling these officers who wear this uniform and you`re putting everybody under this blanket statement that
they are race soldiers.
(CROSSTALK)
NASHEED: No, I`m not. I`m not. No, I did not call police officers are race soldiers.
POUMPOURAS: A lot of these people who fought very, very hard.
NASHEED: Police officers are fine.
POUMPOURAS: So, but that`s what you`re saying with the situation. Tariq, this is not the Tariq show, this is a Dr. Drew show.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: And we`re supposed to let other people speak.
PINSKY: I got to stop everybody right now because I have to go to break.
Next up, the North Miami Police chief is not offering explanation as to how this could have happened. It took three days to come up with an
explanation, Randy just mentioned to us. I`m wondering why.
And later, a revenge plot that involved a grave fantasy, get this, a jealous ex-girlfriend is accused in this bizarre case. We`re back after
this.
ALI NEJAD, THE DAILY SHARE HOST: Ali Nejad in the studio with the T-Mobile Daily Share this hour. A runaway plane doing donuts was caught on video
spinning out of control. Check it out.
No one was in the cockpit. You can see the pilot chasing it. At times it looked like the plane was actually chasing him. The empty plane hit the guy
and the truck before crashing into a hanger.
BUD NECKERBAUER, AIRPORT MANAGER: As he was chasing the aircraft around, the tail of the aircraft is low, it caught him behind the legs and flipped
him. And he went down and hit his head on the asphalt.
NEJAD: The planes took off when the pilot cranked the propeller by hand, it apparently was not in the idle position. The 72-year-old was treated at
the hospital to injuries to his head and his leg. Pretty incredible video there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is Charles Kinsey laying in the middle of the road with his hands in the air.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KINSEY: I`m going to the ground just like this with my hands up, and I`m laying down here just like this, and I`m telling him again, sir, there`s no
need for firearms. I`m unarmed. He`s an autistic guy. He has a toy truck in his hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That, again, is Charles Kinsey, who is shot by the police, he was lying on the ground, his hands were in the air.
Back with Evy, Randy, and Tariq. The police chief did hold a press conference, and this is what happened at the end. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who was the officer? Was he white? Was he black? Was he Hispanic? How long has been on the department?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you -- can you tell us his name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why aren`t you releasing his name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many shots were fired?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who was the officer?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chief, can you speak about the reaction to the video?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When is your next press conference?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Randy, he seemed to refuse to answer questions. He`s not released anything formally about the officer, why all that confusion?
SUTTON: Well, you know, I`ve said this time and time again. We could probably end a lot of the issues that happen after police shootings if
police agencies would just come out in front of things and start -- and start being a lot more transparent.
Because the truth will always win out in the end. And if we get out in front of things, we can just end a lot of the confusion. And I think that
the police agencies are so afraid of liability issues, they`re so afraid to coming out and finding that if they say something, it`s going to come out
differently when they complete the investigation, that they are so afraid that that`s going to happen, that they don`t get in front of it, and it
becomes a bigger issue than it should.
PINSKY: Tariq, the fact that it was an African-American chief, it was a Hispanic shooter, it was supposedly an accident, does that temper your
feelings about this at all?
NASHEED: No. Because number one, Hispanic again is not a race. The person is still classified as white, and the person who is classified as white
still have the ability to be a white supremacist. And also just because they roll out the token black police chief, that`s still systematic white
supremacist that we have to deal within the greater context.
And it`s not a coincidence that black people who are unarmed just happened to be the main ones getting targeted almost every other day at this point.
Most black people, and not even most, all black people in America are subject to being a hash tag in any given moment living under this system,
and there`s no protection for black people from this legal lynching that`s happening right now.
PINSKY: Evy, do you agree with this?
POUMPOURAS: You know, Tariq, you call this police chief a token black police chief.
NASHEED: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: So, are you saying that this man without knowing anything about him, that he didn`t earn the position he has, he simply got it
because he`s black? You know nothing about him, not how hard he worked or how hard he busted his butt to get that job.
You don`t know anything about him, but you`re sitting here on national TV discrediting your brother, so to speak, and this police chief, which you
don`t know anything about.
You know, you`re taking this topic and saying that Hispanic is not a race, they`re are race of their own. So, you`re saying these things about...
(CROSSTALK)
NASHEED: No, they`re not.
PINSKY: Well, no, he`s actually -- he`s actually technically right about Hispanic. I mean, anthropologists argue about whether race exists at all,
but he technically, technically is right, even though I think a white supremacist would probably disagree with him on that.
(CROSSTALK)
POUMPOURAS: They would not want him. I have to say would not absolutely want them.
NASHEED: Oh, they would not really. The white supremacist had no problem supporting George Zimmerman, so he is one of their brothers. So, the thing
is he have...
(CROSSTALK)
POUMPOURAS: So, because you can`t check that box. So, if you can`t check that box, then you`re -- everybody`s white, and then there`s black. This is
the thing, we`re not going to fix this by being angry.
NASHEED: Not really.
POUMPOURAS: What this officer did, if they prove what he did was wrong, absolutely, justice, he should be punished, he should be charged. That`s
how we fix this.
PINSKY: Let`s stay back with the story. I want to show you some footage of what happened right after he was shot. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KINSEY: I think they got like, one, two, three sets of hand cuffs, they cuffed my -- cuffed my hands, and then they flipped me over, and I`m lying
on the concrete like this right here, I`m bleeding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: See, Randy, as a physician, above -- it take for everything else we`re discussing off the table, that treatment really bothers me. That was
not appropriate medical or even humane treatment of somebody in custody, right? I mean, that really was a problem.
SUTTON: It bothers me as well. It bothers me as well, Dr. Drew, because once an individual -- and according to everything, this individual -- Mr.
Kinsey didn`t do anything wrong, OK, so he is, in fact, the victim of an accidental shooting if the -- if we are surmising correctly from what`s
being reported.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: But, Randy, Randy.
SUTTON: Yes?
PINSKY: Even it were an intentional shooting, even if he was a criminal involved in a crime for sure, this treatment is not OK.
(CROSSTALK)
NASHEED: And you don`t shoot people three times by accident.
SUTTON: I agree with you. I`m not...
NASHEED: You don`t shoot people three -- you don`t shoot at people three times by accident.
SUTTON: OK. Whatever, Tariq. Whatever you want to say. You`ve been so...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Randy, Randy, be respectful.
NASHEED: You don`t shoot a person three times by accident and then handcuff them after you shoot them. I`ve never seen anything like that.
SUTTON: Well, if he felt -- if he believed -- if he believed -- if the officer believed in his mind the perception that the autistic gentleman
posed the threat, and that`s what`s going in his mind, and he fired three times, he`s shooting at the autistic guy. He`s not shooting Mr. Kinsey. Mr.
Kinsey was hit by accident. So, we got to take that off the table.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: All right. Let me give you a statement.
SUTTON: But Dr. Drew is absolutely right.
PINSKY: But from the officers...
(CROSSTALK)
NASHEED: Whatever he believed in his mind is not reality. I can make up or make believe scenario in my mind and I`ll be punish for it.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Well, and let me give a statement. Let`s go to the source. This officer actually gave a statement. He said, quote, "I took the shot to save
lives and help people. I did what I had to do in a split second to accomplish that, and I hate to hear others paint me as something I`m not."
And I think, Tariq, if he were hearing you, he would claim, he would be upset.
NASHEED: Well, I would be upset too. An unarmed black man was shot, and, unfortunately, this suspected race soldier will not be punished. And that
is the problem. There`s always some type of excuse if an unarmed black person is shot by a suspected race soldier.
If the person cannot be criminalized the person doing the shooting can make up some scenario how they felt in their mind. So, we live in a make believe
world when it comes to punishing people who are non-black, but when black people commit crimes or perceived to commit crimes, we`re punished to the
letter of the law. So, we can`t have this double edge...
(CROSSTALK)
SUTTON: You`re living in a make believe world if you think they are race soldiers.
PINSKY: Randy, let me show you what the lawyer of this client, this the guy said, the guy -- the officer, his lawyer, when the officer was asked,
why he shot. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He asked the officer, why did you shoot me? The officer said, I don`t know. My client also overheard another officer ask the
shooting officer, why did you shoot this guy, and the officer who fired the shot stated, I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We`re going to have to leave it here, guys. Obviously, lots of problems with the police conduct as well as the police training and the
police, as Evy said, use of their firearms. There`s a lot more to the story.
But, next, we`re learning about the Baton Rouge police killer. He thought, apparently, there was thought he had PTSD. I take issue with that.
And later, police say a woman goes to bizarre extremes in criminal lengths to harm the pregnant wife of her ex-boyfriend. Yes. You got that right.
I`ll tell you about that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It started with a 911 call about a man with a rifle walking near a convenient store.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One subject in black.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say the attack on police officers in Baton Rouge Sunday morning was an ambush.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You saw on TV, it was chaotic. There`s no doubt whatsoever that these officers were intentionally targeted and
assassinated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The killer, 29-year-old Gavin Eugene Long, a forner marine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gavin Long who was killed posted this to YouTube on July the 1oth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GAVIN LONG, KILLED POLICE OFFICERS: I`m the alpha male, I stand up, I stand firm, and I stand for mine until the end, until the last day in this
flesh, but I`m not the flesh, I`m not the body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We know that the Baton Rouge police assassin, Gavin Long, was in the marine corp. He fancied himself later a lifestyle coach, so-called. He
used social media to spread messages about fighting back against bullies.
A source tells CNN that he had claimed to have had PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. And tonight, new claims about him partying, wild sex, he,
Gavin Long, making these claims himself.
Joining me, Thema Davis, psychotherapist, Aaron Cohen, former Special Forces operator specializing in counter terrorism, founder of the Cherry
Counterterrorist School; and Horace Cooper, attorney and co-chair of the black leadership group, Project 21.
Now Gavin Long who uses name Cosmo online, reports that he became celibate suddenly two years ago after first having slept with over 75 women. In an
April podcast, he started bragging again about having sex, partying with celebrities, and having sex with his girlfriend, gets into descriptions of
being 15 different positions and wrapped like a pretzel.
Thema, there`s a, you know, there`s a mental health professional looking at some of these behaviors and some of these thought processes, I mean,
there`s some things that come to mind, for sure.
THEMA DAVIS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. And I want to first say, regardless of the diagnosis, he definitely need a treatment and needed services, and
oftentimes when our veterans are not receiving the appropriate services there is a lot of hard that happens to them and other people.
When we look at the behavior before the shooting, what it reminds me of a histrionic personality disorder, where there is flair for the dramatic very
theatrical, a lot of exaggeration, and high sexual behavior. And him saying that he`s a life coach, saying that he`s a wealth expert, all of those
things are very highly suspicious.
PINSKY: Well, they are grandiose, and so you wonder, also, I mean, histrionic goes under the sort of narcissistic heading, so there is sort of
a narcissistic disorder, you wonder if there was bipolarity creating some of this agitation and grandiosity.
A rapper named Yarima Karama says he got an e-mail from Gavin just at one hour before he went on the shooting spree. He described the e-mail as a
handwritten, quote, "manifesto" that arrived in the form of handwritten photo attachments. CNN will -- let me show you this. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YARIMA KARAMA, OHIO RAPPER: I know I will be vilified by the media and police. Unfortunately, I see my actions as a necessary evil that I do not
wish to partake in nor do I enjoy partaking in, but must partake in order to create substantial change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: CNN was not able to get the letter from Karama, so we can`t independently confirm the claim, but police tell us they are looking into
it. Aaron, how would do you make sense of all this?
AARON COHEN, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: Well, I love the behavioral based approach that you guys are using to describe him, talking about narcissism.
I think that if you look at this from the way we would profile, let`s say a very dangerous terrorist, for instance, there`s certain similarities
between his behavior, between his grandioseness.
And in comparing that to the type of things that we`ll see with a terrorist leader when we`re developing a behavioral profile for that individual,
which is there seems to be a disconnect between him and everybody else.
He puts himself above, and, therefore, he doesn`t believe there`s anything wrong with what he`s doing. His attachment to the media, to YouTube, a lot
of those things end up translating into red flags which we would look at much closer in our intelligence in Israel, as well as intelligence services
here in order to be able to thwart those potential attacks.
So, everything that was already stated regarding this particular individual, those are red flags.
PINSKY: OK.
COHEN: There`s no connection between him and the average person. He sees himself as clearly above.
PINSKY: Just above and different. Horace, how would you make sense of all of this?
HORACE COOPER, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: It looks like evil to me. It looks like person who has taken a decision and a course to carry out a
very, very evil act, and has apparently thought that these kinds of evil acts are OK to do in the sense that the people around him and the people
that he interacts with haven`t signaled to him, that his behavior puts him on a course towards destruction. I call it evil.
PINSKY: Yes. Horace, I`m glad you used that language because, to me, I don`t care what words we use, we`re all actually describing the same thing.
And we are describing with the same construct, we`re looking at the same thing.
I want to go to CNN correspondent Ana Cabrera who spoke to someone who met with Gavin Long about a year ago. I guess his name is Mark Berg. He`s a
head of a community organization located a few blocks from Long`s last known address. I`ll show you this little tape. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At one point in the conversation, I didn`t feel at the time he was ready and committed to be able to do what we needed. We are
definitely a non-violence school.
We don`t accept anything or tolerate anything from a negative standpoint. And I didn`t think at that time that he was really ready to -- to accept what we had offer.
PINSKY: And Ana joins -- Ana joins me now. Did - did he go on to explain more why about there was bad a bad fit? Was he - was he sensing someone
with violent tendency?
ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We didn`t say that Long advocated violence and I asked him, was that the problem? And he said, no, no, no. There was
just vibe about Long that made Bird (ph) hesitate.
He says that Long seemed very intense, very militaristic, in fact, and saying he had a stance about him, that he talked about his military
background, really want to emphasize that.
Bird (ph) also says that Long just seemed to be searching for connection, that he didn`t seem to have a rooted sense of purpose, that he perhaps
wasn`t even connected with himself (inaudible). Now, Bird (ph) also said it was really important for him to find a specific fit because he runs a
vocational school that works with young African-American adults who have little education, who gone down maybe a wrong road.
The goal for them is to give these people hope, to make sure that they get the knowledge and skills that they need to have a brighter future, so he
really needs somebody who is dependable and who has nothing but a positive influence, and something about -- about Long gave Bird (ph) pause.
PINSKY: And Ana, you also spoke to Long`s stepfather. Did -- did he have any kind of similar vibe that he was describing?
CABRERA: You know, he described this attack as a total shock. He said never saw any kind of outbursts with Long. He had known him since he was about
seven years old, helped raise him, said, while he wasn`t his biological son, he certainly felt like his son.
He said that Long was a very good kid, was not around any kind of guns, wasn`t in a violent group or anything, never saw him lash out. He said that
Long was quiet and he smart growing up, that he did what he was told, and as Carl Woodley told me, never had a drop of problems, that`s how he put it
with Long.
He says he maintained a very close relationship with Long as he grew into an adult. In fact, it was Woodley who took him to enroll in the marines
back in 2005, and we know Long served in the marines for five years. He served about six months tour duty in Iraq. He was a data network specialist
with the marines. But when he returned, when he got out of the marines, he was honorably discharged in 2010.
Woodley says there was a notable difference in Long. He seemed a little bit more withdrawn, that he didn`t want to go out much, and Woodley described
him as more of a loner at that time. But he didn`t mention anything about mental health concern.
I will say though, however, a source close to the investigation is telling us that other family and friends have told investigators they worried that
Long may have had PTSD, and it was his mom who has told Tavis Smiley, a host with PBS, that she had asked Long to get help with the VA.
Now, source close to the investigation says Long was on some medication, but he had recently filled a prescription for Ativan, an anti-anxiety drug.
He also had prescription for Valium and sleep aid Lunesta.
The VA cannot confirm or deny any diagnosis or any treatment per se, but did show statement today confirming that they did have several contacts
with Long between 2008 and 2013. So, all of this is just really part of the bigger puzzle as investigators and family members try to make sense of what
happened.
PINSKY: Thank you, Ana. It`s interesting that the family who are giving the PTSD moniker which, again, wrong, but we`ll get into that after the break.
I`ve got a man who knew Gavin Long says, he could have stopped him from killing had he known.
And later, perhaps the most shocking revenge story ever. Police say a woman scorned cooked up a devious plot to harm a rival. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Gavin Long traveled 800 miles to stop and execute three police officers in Baton Rouge last weekend. He was eventually killed by police.
Back with Thema, Aaron, and Horace. And we have new video taken by Gavin Long on his body cam that shows him on the streets of North Baton Rouge
speaking with strangers, promoting himself and his book. Watch this from the advocate.com.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
GAVIN LONG: I`m out, like i said, I`m promoting my book. Let me give you my book also, bruh. Elevating our people, you know, educating our people.
Ain`t nobody give us the knowledge that we need.
You know what I mean, to be successful and succeed, so that`s what I`m out here doing. Yeah, I wrote it, man, that`s me, when I was in Africa. Yeah,
bruh. Yep. Yeah. I`m telling you, man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me via Skype, I`ve got Lance Scurv, a blogger, radio host, friend of Gavin Long. Lance, you say you might have been able to stop him?
LANCE SCURV, FRIEND OF GAVIN LONG: Yes. Yes. We had a wonderful connection when he came into my show, The Lance Scurv Show. Before that, he reached
out to me in October of 2015. We had numerous phone calls in which we connected, and eventually on a whim, we pretty much did the show.
I had my equipment here so I can do it like that. He seemed to be a person who was always on the move, not for any weird reason or any -- he just
didn`t -- he wasn`t settled. All I have to say is that he didn`t seem like the kind of person who could do this.
I couldn`t imagine, in all my years of life, after my type of connection with him, that he could do this. Since he did this, I say to myself, what
happened to him from the time that I talked to him, because he was very open until the time that he did this act.
PINSKY: He -- you say he described himself as a freedom fighter. What did he mean?
SCURV: Okay. When he described himself as a freedom fighter, the way I took it, was a person who wanted to deal with the racism here in the country,
the ignorance in the country, the imagery of his people.
You see, so he felt that he had knowledge that can help everyone here on a spiritual level, on a health and fitness level. Because if you look at us
in America, most of us, we`re not doing that good right now. The country`s divided.
And all I want to say to Horace, brother Horace, who said that it was an evil act. Yes, I do not condone that at all, but we have to assume that
when our troops come back from war, before they go, they are stripped down and built up to be killing machines.
We say it`s evil when he shot those three cops, and, yes, it could be looked that way, but how -- it could be evil, also, when you look on the
other side because they created killing machines.
PINSKY: Okay. Let`s put Horace`s respond to that. Go ahead Horace.
COOPER: Yeah. I strenuously disagree. The Bureau of Prisons, the Department of Justice, the FBI, the statistics tell us that our veterans, the people
who serve, are far less likely to engage in violent crime, and in particular, there`s a staggering lower number when you talk about black
males between ages of 16 and 35 who are civilians versus those who go in the military.
The numbers are staggering. It is efficacious for a young black man to serve in our military and they come out and they are amazing contributions
to society.
PINSKY: Aaron, you agree? Well, let -- let me get Aaron`s comment then Thema. Go ahead, Aaron.
COHEN: Yeah, I do. I agree. I know that the Marine Corps is an excellent branch of the military. I`ve trained the marines before. There`s a high set
of -- there`s high discipline. There`s high morale. The standards are increasingly high.
And I just don`t think that there`s any connection between and I completely agree with Horace. There`s no connection. We haven`t found this in Israel,
either, between having served in a foreign operating area, and I`m not even sure what his specific MOS was when he was abroad.
It doesn`t sound like he was in a combat arms MOS, meaning he was on the front line, he was fighting, he was going house to house.
PINSKY: Apparently not. Even though he said he was, but apparently not. But Thema, you can understand why Lance would say that, alright, intuitively it
kind of make sense, but I guess the data does not suggest it, or do you disagree with the gentleman? Thema?
DAVIS: I would say that those who serve are at increased risk for perpetuating domestic violence. And interestingly, we`ve been seeing an
association with those who are our perpetrators of domestic violence and those who perpetrate community violence.
I do want to say that he served and he was not dishonorably discharged, and so it`s important that we not erase that and recognize the need for
services. We see from him hypervigilance, and that`s a part of PTSD, the family and others report some avoidance behavior, but of course at that
time when he was doing the shooting, he wasn`t being avoidant, he was being aggressive.
PINSKY: Yeah.
DAVIS: He really need a therapy.
PINSKY: Right. I couldn`t agree with you more. You know, call it evil, call it grandiose, call it whatever name you want to use to describe what this
was here, we can tell you, Thema, I can tell you that we can study this and we change the course of it. Whatever language used to describe it, when
somebody`s into trouble, treatment makes a difference.
Next up, police say six men show up for forced sex with a pregnant woman because this jealous ex set it up on Craigslist. I`ll tell you about it
after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reports a pregnant Orange County woman brutally attacked in her own home after her husband, 29-year-old ex, has exposed
fake rape fantasy rape ads under the pregnant wife`s name on Craigslist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michelle Hadley allegedly sent him in pictures and details about the woman`s daily routines.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She even impersonated the pregnant wife when communicating with the potential perpetrators, and no less than six men
showed up and tried to attack this woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Incredible. 29-year-old Michelle Hadley had been charged with ten felonies, including six counts of attempted forcible rape. Back with Thema
and Evy, and joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar, our criminal defense attorney.
Evy, six guys showed up to rape an unsuspecting pregnant woman. I`ve never heard of such a thing.
POUMPOURAS: Yes. This is a woman who, obviously, took her breakup very, very, very poorly. She should absolutely be charged. She`s looking at a
possible life sentence. She should absolutely get that if that`s what they think is appropriate because not only this is an ongoing issue that they
had with her.
They filed restraining orders against her. She sent them e-mails harassing them, threatening the wife, threatening the baby. She was out on bail for -
- she was out on bail, then they released her, she goes back out and does this. So, this is somebody who is a danger to society, who has a problem.
PINSKY: Anahita, Counselor, you`re defending this woman. I know you can (inaudible) some defense for her.
POUMPOURAS: I -- I know Anahita can defend her.
PINSKY: Anahita can defend anybody, but -- but even you have trouble with this one. And -- and my question is, this woman was dangerous, and they let
her back out again, is that how the system supposed to work?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s not supposed to work that way. I believe she deserves a defense, but it`s -- it`s gonna be a
difficult one. This is actually, like, a different level of crazy because she literally -- she couldn`t control herself, Dr. Drew.
Like Evy just said, she was arrested for threatening this woman for posting these ads. She`s lucky enough to get out on bail, and what does she do when
she gets out? She continues to do this. So, you know, I don`t think there`s gonna be much sympathy for her when it comes to sentencing.
PINSKY: But -- but Anahita, what I want to get out here is that -- that very often stalkers, as you say, can`t control themselves. That`s what
stalking is...
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s right.
PINSKY: ... and there`s not many remedies for the victims until something horrible happens.
SEDAGHATFAR: And that`s unfortunate. That`s right. I mean, the best you can do is do what this woman did. She got a restraining order, but -- but this
defendant, she could not control herself. The day she got out and she got released on bail, she went right back on Craigslist, and she was
communicating and putting up these ads. So...
PINSKY: Well.
SEDAGHATFAR: ... I personally think she`s gonna -- she`s gonna get a lot of jail time, Dr. Drew.
PRINSKY: Well, that`s good.
SEDAGHATFAR: She has criminal records too on top of everything else.
PINSKY: That`s good. But -- But Thema, not to -- not to in any way take issue with my friend, Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: Of course not.
PINSKY: But -- but she says it`s the right thing to get a restraining order. The reality, unfortunately, is, if you do anything with a simple
stalker, maintain any sort of relationship even if it`s clamping down structure, though sometimes you have to, they tend to inflame them.
DAVIS: It`s so true. That`s why it`s important to try to figure out the personality of the person you`re dealing with. Because there are some
people who you got a restraining order and they`re like, Oh, I don`t want any trouble, and so they back up.
But with her, there really is no remorse and no stopping her, and she`s very obsessed and very angry. And so, I still think it was probably the
right decision for them to do.
PINSKY: Yeah. I think they had no choice, right?
DAVIS: Yeah.
PINSKY: I mean, but -- but Evy, you`re my security expert. Let`s say I`ve got somebody coming at me and will not stop and I finally take some action.
It makes things worse. What do I do? And Anahita is there defending this woman.
(LAUGHTER)
POUMPOURAS: That`s Anahita`s job and I respect that. You know, with this woman -- I mean, she`s really just unstable and a threat to society, and
I`d really be interested to know how she behaved in her previous relationships. (inaudible) I mean, I don`t think people just snap and do
this although...
PINSKY: No.
POUMPOURAS: ... I -- I think she was dumped -- dumped and then immediately her boyfriend met somebody else and got that woman -- woman pregnant.
You`re probably looking at a lot of historical issues, problems, violence in the past...
PINSKY: Well, yeah. Well, not necessarily violence.
POUMPOURAS: ... someone like this should absolutely do time (ph).
PINSKY: Not necessarily violence. Thema, I`ll go back to you. It`s Jodi Arias. It`s borderline personality, right?
DAVIS: And things can escalate over time.
POUMPOURAS: This is also domestic violence.
PINSKY: Yeah.
POUMPOURAS: I`m sorry, but you -- you didn`t think she had a domestic violence all because she has violent boyfriend...
PINSKY: Would not be surprising -- would not be surprising. But -- but Thema, that`s sort of what it sounds like to me. You agree?
DAVIS: Absolutely. Things escalating over time and the more she`s getting the note, the more she`s responding with increased rage to the point where
she could even attack a pregnant woman.
PINSKY: Right -- right. Let me take a quick break. I`ll be back with more on this. There`s more -- more wild aspect to the story (inaudible). I`ll be
right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Authorities say a Southern California woman posted rape fantasy ads on Craigslist posing as her ex-boyfriend`s pregnant new wife. Let`s try to
follow all that.
Now, she was encouraging men to forcibly rape her, claiming to be her, even if she screamed or resisted. Back to Thema, Evy, and Anahita. Anahita, my
question, is to start out here, among many other things, is the Craigslist liability.
I -- I understand that they don`t anticipate people behave like this, but don`t they have some liability?
SEDAGHATFAR: No liability for Craigslist. There shouldn`t be liability, Dr. Drew. In fact, the law protects websites like this. The Communications
Decency Act says that websites like this are not liable by third parties who post on their website or who engage in illegal acts using their
website.
And if you think about it, that makes a lot of sense. Because if Craigslist, for example, if they were required to police and monitor the
millions and millions of posts that go on their website, that would be like a huge cost, and it would probably be impossible for them to do that.
And so websites like Craigslist, You Tube, Facebook, these would all shut down and it would stifle internet speech, and we don`t want that to happen,
so that`s why the law protects the website from liability.
PINSKY: We don`t want that to happen, but perhaps the internet would be safer place if people were forced to develop a technology. Thema, I see you
nodding -- nodding.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Stop with the slippery slope. That makes me crazy when you do the slippery slope.
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s true. It`s absolutely if the big websites will shut down eventually.
PINSKY: Thema, what do you think?
DAVIS: We`re thinking about the rights and the business for people who have these websites, but we have to also think about the victims, and one of the
victims groups that we have really tried to address when it comes to the internet is sex trafficking victims, who often are trafficked using these
types of websites, and so I think there does need to be a level of accountability.
PINSKY: Yeah. Maybe the slippery slope is not entering the slippery slope by trying to deal with this rationally or reasonably and not worrying about
a slipper slope by just dealing with the things that can be dealt with.
SEDAGHATFAR: Where would you draw the line, Dr. Drew? Would the newspaper be liable if someone reads an ad for a house that`s listed for sale and and
a crazy person goes and attacks the real estate agent?
PINSKY: Listen, Anahita. All I know is that the way the attorney do with the legal system, literally, if I`m in a room where somebody says something
and not even to me, I`m liable just because I was in the room with them.
SEDAGHATFAR: You can be sued.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Okay. Evy, what do you say to all this?
POUMPOURAS: You know, some of these, actually the social media, some platforms, they do investigate. They do have a unit that does investigate.
So that`s why when you have somebody that harasses you online, you can report them.
They do allow you delete or block people, and they do remove people, like from Twitter, for example, depending again on what people post. They do
remover people`s Twitter handles and Facebook does the same thing...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: ... Facebook was trying very hard, only back into my space. They -- they say people specialize this, that was early days of trying to trouble
with it.
POUMPOURAS: There`s a full investigative unit. They do try to work with law enforcement. But going back to (inaudible) the problem is there`s so many
users. How are you able to keep up with this? I do want to point another thing else because I`m gonna go back to my kind of safety aspect about
using these online, you know, these platforms, the social media platforms.
With this victim, supposedly a perpetrator, a suspect, she took photos of the victim, posted them online. She allegedly shared her daily routine.
So, that leads me to believe, again, it`s not confirmed, but that leads me to believe that she has access to this woman`s photos probably...
PINSKY: Unbelievable.
POUMPOURAS: ... through her social media accounts.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Preaching. Evy is preaching.
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: Don`t have a Facebook. Don`t have a Twitter.
POUMPOURAS: You know what?
SEDAGHATFAR: Keep it private.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Got to go, guys. Two seconds, Evy. Two seconds, Evy. Go.
POUMPOURAS: Even if you keep it private, guys, it`s not always safe.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Nancy Grace, up next.
END
