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Dr. Drew
Difference Between Discipline and Abuse; Body Found Beaten and Strangled in Wooded Area; Man Who Shot Ronald Reagan Set to Be Freed From Mental Hospital. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired July 27, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[19:00:00] SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: ... the child because that was not discipline. That was a mother out of control. And she did not have the
adequate parenting skills to do what needed to be done in that situation.
DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Stacy, do you have any input on this? Agree or disagree?
STACY WASHINGTON, CONSERVATIVE TALK SHOW HOST: I actually -- my husband and I are proponents of verbal punishment for children during certain
parameters, under certain guidelines, and this was not what you will call corporal punishment from a loving parent.
This was an abuse situation, and I agree that we should be on the side of the child, especially in light of the fact that she is now national news.
She`s gone viral and she`s -- she`s a minor. She deserves protection.
PINSKY: And -- and yet that mom would use the same logic that you`re using to protect what is reasonable corporal punishment. She would say, oh, you
know, just what she needed because I love her so much. It did happen to me, look how great I turned out. She will use that logic, Spirit, will she not?
SPIRIT: Well, you know, this is the thing, Dr. Drew. Unfortunately, we don`t have the conversations around sex in America, but the reality is at
16, adults are -- young adults are having sex. The average age that teens are engaging in sexual activity for the longest time in America has been
around 16, 17 years old.
So if mom wanted to talk to her daughter about sexual activity, that`s one conversation. If she wanted to talk to her about being disobedient in what
she is doing in her house, I`m sure there was another way to do this, and this should have been a conversation happening over a long period of
time...
PINSKY: Let me show you...
SPIRIT: Not just invite in Facebook for live streaming.
PINSKY: Of course. I`ll show you -- we have some more -- let me show you more of this physical abuse that was streamed on Facebook. Take a look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re 16, right? You`re only 16! (inaudible). Because I`m not done. More to come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So Bobby, there`s more to come, she says. She wants it to go viral. What`s your position?
BOBBY CHACON, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, you know, when I first saw it, you know, there`s always a balance between letting a parent -- parent and --
and -- and when it crosses the line.
I think this obviously crossed the line, but I think what did it for me was reading some of her comments after the video went viral where she actually
justifies doing this or her reason for doing it was because she was embarrassed, the daughter was embarrassed, and she said, if you embarrass
me, I`m going to embarrass you by putting you on Facebook live.
This wasn`t a case where she was like trying to tell her daughter, this is bad for your future. You shouldn`t post pictures like this. This could come
back to haunt you.
This was a mother`s -- almost a mother`s pride getting hurt or something, because she says, both during the video that I saw and some of her written
statements afterwards where she was just so humiliated and embarrassed by her daughter`s behavior, and that`s why she was taking it out on the
daughter.
PINSKY: On the daughter.
[19:05:00] ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Who cares what the reason is, Dr. Drew? I`m sorry. Who cares what her reason is? There is
no excuse for what she did. I think this mother needs to be criminally charged. I think her children need to be taken away from her until that
becomes a safe home, if it ever becomes a safe home.
Because we`re talking about, you know, the difference between discipline and abuse. Whatever her reasoning was for doing this, that`s flat-out
abuse. She is hitting her with a board. She`s -- she`s punching her over and over in the stomach, in the face.
And, you know, I`m not surprised that this young teenager has some problems or she is being promiscuous, Dr. Drew. Look at the way she is being raised
in her household.
PINSKY: Anahita, you`re singing to the choir as far as I`m concerned. But the daughter told police she felt safe in her home, so because of that, no
charges were filed. The case was referred to the Department of Children and Family Services.
Just because she feels safe, they don`t file charges even though they have all this evidence?
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s not an excuse. I mean, of course the child is gonna say that she feels safe. I`m sure she`s scared or maybe she is sort of relating
to her mother. We talk about Stockholm syndrome. Maybe she identifies with her mom...
PINSKY: Of course.
SEDAGHATFAR: ... does not want to get her mom in trouble. But I don`t think the police should let this go. I think they should wait and see what CPS
uncovers, then an investigation, and then decide whether the mother should be charged.
PINSKY: And Spirit, think about how primitive that is. This -- I`m going to beat you to humiliation for having humiliated me. I mean, that`s so, so
primitive.
SPIRIT: Oh, yeah. I mean -- and there`s a lot of cultural conditioning. I mean, when we talk about the whole idea of spanking and corporal punishment
and all those things, Dr. Drew, don`t even get me started on there.
But how about the hypocritical behavior? Here mom is saying how dare you be that thot over there, right? But then she`s on Facebook half naked, overtly
sexual and saying, come on, keep filming, come in.
PINSKY: Yeah. I wonder -- I wonder where she got...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: That`s right. I wonder where she got the role model for this. But the really sad reality. Spirit, back me up on this. Give me Spirit up there
on the screen again. Spirit, back me up. Is it not the case when kids are the object of physical abuse by the hands of either parent, they`ll manage
to find a relationship later that perpetrates the same thing upon them.
SPIRIT: Yes.
PINSKY: That is the horrible thing.
SPIRIT: Yes. Her mother is teaching.
PINSKY: Was not even teaching. There is something crazy about the human being that we reenact our traumas. If somebody does something to us like
physical abuse, we are attracted to people and places that perpetrate the same thing upon us. We are attracted to them. And of course they oblige us
by being what they are, which is physically abusive.
SPIRIT: Yes.
PINSKY: Next up, the rest of...
SPIRIT: And she will do that with her children.
PINSKY: Oh, my God. Next up, the rest of the story. What happened after this beating on social media? We`ll hear what mom and daughter have said.
And later, a man who attempted to kill President Reagan in 1981 is getting out of a chronic psychiatric facility and going home with his 90-year-old
mother. Good idea? We`ll talk about it after this.
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: An irate, out of control mother says she had been embarrassed by her teen daughter after the 16-year-old, well, she had sex in her home and
posted some provocative pictures on Facebook.
The mother fought back literally and it`s funny. I -- I was watching on Twitter this minute ago and people are saying, what is she supposed to do
buy her a car? There are 20,000 choices she could have made other than beating this child and then streaming it live. Streaming the beating and
verbal abuse. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re 16, right? You`re only 16! (inaudible). Because I`m not done. More to come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anahita, Bobby, Spirit, and Stacy. Spirit, for people that don`t know, thot is that hoe over there. Mom uses this word a dozen
times in the raw tape. Nice respectful way to deal with your daughter.
SPIRIT: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, I mean, again, what you`re seeing is a mom that has limited parenting resources. She probably has struggled with
parenting and in her mind, she is really doing the right thing.
She`s teaching a lesson. She is disciplining. She is saying, this will not happen in my house. You are just a minor, you`re a young girl. And in her
mind, she is really doing this the right way...
PINSKY: Spirit, to your point...
SPIRIT: ... and there are so many people that will agree.
PINSKY: ... to your point, hold on. Hold on. To your point, she did not respond to our request for comment, but she did post on Facebook the
following comment, quote, I love my daughter with all my heart, I`m sure she does, whatever happens after this, oh, well, my daughter is not going
to respect me or herself. Lesson learned. Wrong, mom. Wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: She -- well -- fair enough. Stacy, go ahead.
WASHINGTON: Dr. Drew, there`s a way to -- if you have limited parenting resources, there is a way to approach this situation. It`s called educating
yourself. You don`t have to go and spend thousands of dollars on therapy or classes.
You can get books and you can read them as your child develops that can help you create a parenting strategy, whether you`re a single parent or
married, that can help you deal with these types of situations.
If she had done that earlier, she wouldn`t be in the situation she is in now where her daughter doesn`t trust her. She doesn`t come to her to talk
about, I`m thinking of becoming sexually active or I -- I need to go and see a gynecologist, I`m sexually active. Mom, what do you think about me
and my boyfriend doing this or that?
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: That`s the most -- that`s the most unrealistic idea and it`s a Utopian idea. Listen...
WASHINGTON: It`s not. It`s not.
SPIRIT: ... because the therapist must know what it is. It is. As an individual who deals with parents and children and family across this
country all day, every day, that is the ideal that we push for.
I will tell you that less than 1 percent of families have ever picked up a book on good parenting. And they usually only do it once they have a
problem. Most of these parents have no idea about those conversations, and most children, no matter how inviting or welcoming their parents are about
sexual conversations, they are not having them with their parents.
[19:15:00] PINSKY: Anahita.
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: Do you really need to have a book or a parenting class to know that it is not right to beat up your child and punch her with a fist, Dr.
Drew? And I think what makes it that much more egregious to me is the fact she posted this on Facebook live.
It`s almost like she wanted the attention for herself. She wanted some type of fame or - or -- or some infamy from this. At one point, if you look, the
camera kind of turns away from her and she`s like, no, no, put the camera back on me.
You know, what is that? To me it seems like, I don`t think but in her mind she even thinks she`s doing the right thing here. I don`t buy that for one
second.
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: There is a whole segment of the population that believes that this is how you discipline your children.
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: What -- what purpose does it serve by putting it live and saying, let`s make this go viral? She`s putting statement out.
SPIRIT: Because that segment of the population are high-fiving her. They are in agreement. They are saying, if I go, mom, I would beat the hell out
of my child too if they did this. And they are showing their children this, going, if you ever do that, I would do worse to you, do you understand
this? And so there is a whole group of people behind this.
PINSKY: Yup. You`re right. You`re absolutely right. And what they say is, oh, that`s how we have so many entitled, out of control kids because
parents aren`t doing this. Bobby, what do you say about this?
CHACON: Well, you know, as an investigator, if I had this video evidence with two people fighting, I mean, you could -- you could indict and you
can...
PINSKY: Easy, right?
CHACON: ... probably convict the mother. And I don`t think any of the laws have an exception to, you know, you can`t hit someone like this or assault
except if it`s your child. I don`t think there are exceptions like that.
PINSKY: Right. Well, in fact, it`s worse. It`s worse to defenseless child. We have to -- we, the society has to defend those that are more
defenseless.
CHACON: Sure. If these were two individuals in the street, that person would be under arrest, charged with assault, and the video evidence would
be introduced.
PINSKY: A 100%. That would be -- think about what Bobby just said. If you were witnessing two women out on the street and one woman was pounding on
the other like that, that woman would go to prison.
But I want to come back round to what Stacy said and defend her. It`s a fact that -- and I want to put a finer point on this too which is that if
you`re getting to the point where you`re out of control -- and I would say God help you, please not beating your kid, but even yelling at your kid,
you missed parenting opportunities earlier.
You`re not doing your job. It`s not about you, so you shouldn`t be having an emotional reaction. You should have dropped whatever act was necessary
to drop to manage the behavior long before you`re swinging your fist.
I also want to show you what the 16-year-old posted on Facebook after the incident, quote, first off, I shouldn`t have embarrassed my mama. I love
her. I was gonna open up and tell her that I was having sex. I will just gonna wait a couple of days to see how I was gonna tell her. I understand
why she did what she did.
Then Spirit, what she is saying is, I`m a bad kid, I deserve this. She is blaming herself for being the object of abuse, which is how a kid`s brain
works.
SPIRIT: Exactly, Dr. Drew. And so now, we`re having this whole conversation unfortunately and it`s about her. And if her mother doesn`t say this is
another teaching opportunity, this is the opportunity for her mother to say, I did the wrong thing for the right reason. Let me apologize for
assaulting and abusing your person.
And now let`s really talk about what`s going on. Because remember at the end of the day, she is still sexually active. She is still out there doing
things that are putting her at risk.
SEDAGHATFAR: And it doesn`t work, Dr. Drew. Let`s talk about the fact that abusing children does not work. It would be one thing, okay, if there are
good results that come from it but...
PINSKY: Yes. Yes, Anahita. Thank you. You`re absolutely right which is if there`s nothing sort of, you know, sort of words...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: But not only that -- but just from -- abstractly, there`s nothing wrong with it. it`s not as though, you know, sort of some -- if it worked,
if this raised healthy children, I would be an advocate. Why would I object to that if it worked? It does the opposite.
Next up, a murder mystery that may involve an estranged wife, two sons, and dad`s dead body.
And later, John Hinckley spent more than three decades in a psychiatric hospital after shooting President Reagan. He is getting out. We`ll be back
after this.
[19:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 50-year-old Craig Rideout`s body was found in a wooded area beaten, strangled, his face disfigured by acid. A shovel and shallow
grave were next to him.
Tonight, his estranged wife and two sons have been charged with tampering with evidence. Craig`s sister grew suspicious when she found his wife at
his apartment cleaning.
A day later, investigators caught her two sons trying to throw gloves, drain cleaner, and other supplies into a pond. No one has been charged with
murder. All three are out on bond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And the father of seven brutally murdered near Rochester, New York. His estranged wife, two sons arrested for trying to destroy evidence. They
have not been charged with murder. Back with Anahita and Booby, and joining us, Pat Lalama, managing editor, Crime Watch Daily. Pat, you have more on
this story for us. Please.
PAT LALAMA, MANAGING EDITOR, CRIME WATCH DAILY: Yes. Well, of course, as you just mentioned, the question is was Laura and her two sons an alleged
cleanup crew or were they alleged exterminators? That`s yet to be decided.
But in the meantime, they have found poor Craig Rideout`s Honda van. And they found that van about an hour away from the crime scene. Now, we call
it the crime scene. That`s where his body was found. Do we know whether he was murdered there? That`s still uncertain.
But the car was found at a Ride and Share. And the way that it was found was that all the detectives on this particular force were told to go look
for any route that might have gone from that scene to anywhere where anyone might have escaped or gotten away. And on the way on in searching those
routes, sure enough they find his van at the park...
[19:25:00] PINSKY: We seem to have lost Pat. Bobby, let me -- let me go to you. Somebody who is cleaning up a murder scene -- Pat`s back now. But I
want to ask Bobby this question. You clean up a murder scene but you have no knowledge that somebody was killed or nothing to do with somebody being
killed? How does that work?
CHACON: You know, from their point of view, they are not admitting it is a murder scene, right? I believe that is the crime scene. You think where
they found the body was the disposal site?
But also -- I think with the car, the car that they found, they may have done a tire impression because I believe that they also think that the car
was also at the disposal site. So that means to me that they may have taken a tire impression of cars that were in that area during the time.
PINSKY: I see. Pat, finish up, please.
LALAMA: Well, that`s essentially what I was gonna say. They do believe that car did travel from the scene to the Park and Ride. And now the question is
putting all the pieces together because, you know, you ask or everyone`s asking why have they not been charged?
And sure enough there seems to be a great motive because we do know that Laura wanted out of the marriage. They were estranged. They were going
through a divorce.
The sons, two of the sons were very, very angry with their father, blaming him for not ending this divorce. They all wanted to take off with the new
boyfriend. So it seems like there`s a motive. But my guess would be -- Bobby could probably speak with this better -- that they want to cross
their Ts and dot the Is before they actually file any murder charges.
PINSKY: Is it that or do they have investigators on these kids? What`s the deal?
LALAMA: Well, you know what? Do they want to play one against the other, want to see what they can get out of one? Who`s gonna rat who out? Who`s
gonna break? There are all kinds of games that could be being played right now.
But at the same time, it could just be that they want to lose this case. Yeah, the motive seems so clear. Did someone else do it and they just went
in to try to clean up afterwards, allegedly? We just don`t know at this point.
PINKSY: So, Bobby, is it prisoner`s dilemma? They`re waiting for somebody to give? Is it they want to trail them around and find out or just getting
their act together?
CHACON: It could be a number of things. In could be, you know, in homicide school, they taught us the first threshold you have to get over is means,
motive and opportunity, right?
The person has to have the means, the motive, and the opportunity to commit a crime. Well, obviously all those three are met with these individuals.
But it could be something as simple as waiting for DNA to come back.
You work with a prosecutor on these cases from day one as an investigator and sometimes you have prosecutors that are more careful. Some prosecutors
are a little more aggressive. So it all depends on the DA or state`s attorney that you`re dealing with and -- and how quickly they want you to
take these people into custody.
As an investigator, you always go where the evidence lead you. Clearly in this case, the evidence is leading to these three. You got hostile e-mail
exchanges with the sons. You`ve got obviously that the wife wanted to move away and couldn`t and wanted the custody of the other two children.
So you -- you clearly have motive. You have the opportunity. And so I think that it could be just -- just a situation where, you know, the prosecutor
wants to make sure the lab results are back and reviewed by some experts and things.
PINSKY: Alright.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think it`s smart actually, Dr. Drew. I think it`s smart that they didn`t rush to charge these individuals. I think...
PINSKY: Well, let me put you on the defense side though. I know that`s where you belong.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yeah.
PINSKY: Let`s -- let`s talk about what you are going to be up against. You`re trying to defense them...
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s tough.
PINSKY: That`s why we`re talking about it. Look at this crazy picture. This mugshot of the 19-year-old with a big smile. His father has just been
murdered. He`s been charged with tampering. Look at this. He`s delighted. He`s a cute boy. That`s your client, Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: I heard that wasn`t his mugshot, Dr. Drew. But you know, certainly, they`re gonna argue that no, they have nothing to do with it. We
don`t know yet if there is any DNA or forensic evidence, fibers, anything tying them to the murder, but they have...
PINSKY: Other than them messing with the body and cleaning everything up and putting acid on his face and why they did that?
SEDAGHATFAR: The wife allegedly did that. I can tell you, I agree with the prosecution by not rushing to press charges because they want to make sure
that they have enough evidence to get a conviction. That`s their duty and their obligation is they need to make sure that they have enough evidence
to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.
PINSKY: Alright.
SEDAGHATFAR: It doesn`t look good. I admit that.
PINSKY: Alright. And -- and Pat is shaking her eyeglasses at us which is never a good sign.
LALAMA: You know what to do. (inaudible), right? Okay. I see the question. Here is the part of the story that I just love, okay, if you could love any
part of a horrific murder story, but this is what I find interesting.
So, the sister of the victim shows up at her brother`s apartment and guess who`s there? It`s Laura. And according to the story, according to the
reports, Laura looks at the sister and says, I knew somebody would be looking for him eventually. I just don`t know where he is. And she leaves
the apartment with a black bag, a garbage bag, with a white garbage bag, and her purse. She has no reason to be there.
Also in the past, according to the victim before he was so heinously murdered, he was writing to his son that, you know, I found apartment keys
in the bushes outside my house. He had a computer stolen. There are certainly things that have been happening leading up to the time that he
was deceased.
But it is so interesting to me that the ex-wife just happens to be in his apartment cleaning up and just doesn`t understand where he might be.
[19:30:00] PINSKY: It doesn`t sound like the mom did something -- the ex- wife did something and the sons are coming up for her.
CHACON: Yeah.
SEDAGHATFAR: Seems like she had the motive, Drew, to do it. You`re going through a contentious divorce, custody dispute. The motive is there.
PINSKY: Next up, accusation charges, countercharges. I`m going to hear from the victim`s children and a good friend in their own words.
And later, stalked Jodi Foster and he tried to kill President Reagan to impress her. Tonight, John Hinckley Jr. is off the hook for what he did.
He`s out. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evidence indicated that some kind of a corrosive acid was poured over the body`s face. The body was wrapped in a tarp and there
was also a shovel found at the scene.
[19:35:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim was 50-year-old Craig Rideout.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two of his children along with his estranged wife, Laura, at the center of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Laura Rideout posted bail on Friday, charged with burglary and tampering with evidence. Their sons, Alex and Colin, also
charged with tampering with evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The body of Craig Rideout was found in a wooded area wrapped in a tarp, has been beaten and strangled, acid had been poured on his face. His
estranged wife and two sons are charged with trying to destroy evidence.
I`m back with Anahita, Bobby, and Pat. On the phone, I got Patrick Brennan. He was a good friend of Craig. Patrick, first of all, obviously, this is a
tragedy. We are sorry you had to go through this. Of course, you feel terrible that we`re having to report on this tragedy, but did he ever talk
about his wife, Laura, and in what way?
PATRICK BRENNAN, FRIEND OF CRAIG RIDEOUT: Thank you for having me on. I appreciate your condolences. It`s definitely a challenging time. I mean, I
knew Craig for about 16 years and, you know, through that length of time, we did have conversations about Laura, mostly difficulties that they had
had in their marriage, especially as of late, but I mean nothing that would have risen to a level that -- that, you know, would indicate anything like
this.
PINSKY: How about the sons? They -- they -- did they have a decent relationship with him?
BRENNAN: He was always hopeful with them. I -- I think it was a challenging situation, I`ll say. Especially with the relationship they had with their
mother, but he was always...
PINSKY: What do you mean by that? What is that mean?
BRENNAN: The -- the relationship that they had with their mother in that they -- I mean, it was a difficult situation in terms of the divorce and,
you know, things are said about each other in a divorce and the arrangements, as people, you know, move back and forth, are challenging.
I would say that he loved his sons very much and that he did everything he could for his children. And they seemed positive to him. And I think there
was a hope on Craig`s part that as this divorce ended and that things moved forward, that they could grow into a more stable situation, a more
normalized situation, and then he could really continue to grow in his relationship with his children.
PINSKY: Okay. I wonder if my guests have a question for Patrick.
SEDAGHATFAR: I have a question.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Anahita. Go ahead.
SEDAGHATFAR: One of the allegations, I guess, one of the e-mails they uncovered was from the son to the father saying that he was abusive. Do you
know anything about that, whether that`s true or not?
BRENNAN: I never saw any evidence of that. I know Craig and his family for -- for quite a long time. I had been in their house. I had been around the
children before. I never saw any evidence or saw anything to indicate that there was any type of abuse at all.
LALAMA: I wanted to add to that, perhaps your guest can comment that also part of those e-mails, which I find were interestingly posted on Facebook
as if somebody wanted to tell the world about these -- these problems...
PINSKY: I`ve got them, I think. Can we scroll to those? If anybody who has -- the producers -- can they give me those -- those Facebook close so I can
read them for Patrick.
LALAMA: Yeah. And Dr. Drew, one of the things also along with the allegations of abuse by the sons posted on Facebook were allegations that
Craig was mentally ill and this life of suffering, and Craig does in these e-mails say he wants a better relationship.
And the son -- if these are accurate and -- and not fraudulent -- the son is just rabid towards him, and I find it interesting because it seems they
were posted, you know, shortly before he was murdered. Was there some sort of message that was trying to convey?
PINSKY: Or maybe the son wasn`t well. Maybe it was some sort of, you know, a mental health issue. The brother calls the dad an abusive coward. Okay,
so we have that. He also says, you`re a chronic liar. I`m sick of you dragging my mother through this contorted divorce while you abuse the court
system to try and retain control over her life.
He goes on, if you had any decency, you would end the divorce as soon as possible. Let my mother and especially the two children leave. Patrick, any
-- any response to that? Any theory about what happened here?
BRENNAN: The first part, that`s not Craig. Craig was one of the most honest an decent people I ever knew. To the extent that he told you the truth,
even if it was difficult in that situation for you to hear it. He told you the truth. He told you what you needed to hear. But he did it in a loving
way. He did it so that he help build you up.
I had many conversations with Craig over a long period of time, and he was never in any way someone that -- that wasn`t honest. He was always honest
and very genuine.
PINSKY: Patrick, then who would want him dead?
BRENNAN: I mean, I can`t answer that. I don`t know.
PINSKY: Do you think it`s just a random act of violence?
BRENNAN: I wouldn`t suppose so. But I`ll let the, you know, the investigators figure all those details.
[19:40:00] PINSKY: I don`t want to put you in that spot. I don`t want to. But I thank you for being here and I thank you for sharing your thoughts
about this. You were there. You`re the one that, you know, our hearts go out to because you had to suffer this loss.
I want to go to Bobby. Bobby, do you think -- those e-mails struck me -- do you think there`s any chance either of the kids weren`t well and maybe this
was part of a violent, you know, psychotic episode or they put those e- mails up there as a way of building a defense?
CHACON: Sure. Absolutely. I think that`s absolutely right. And I think as an investigator, one of things is easy. You go back and you look. Is there
a history of reporting of abuse? If this is the first time we are hearing of it, you know, then the veracity of it comes into play.
But I think there`s been a move. I think we`ve seen it before. They`ve obviously planned this murder out to some extent. And part of that is to
tarnish the victim, to start building your defense or, you know, even if -- if not a defense but building some kind of an excuse on why it happened.
PINSKY: A story.
CHACON: Yeah. You`re tarnishing the victim and events. The other thing that I heard was, in this case, this house that he was living in, he just moved
into in the last couple of weeks. There was no way almost for them to know where he was living. They certainly had never been over there before.
Now, why would they go over there to clean it up for him? And I know the story is that the two kids that he still had custody, one texted the mom
and complained the place was dirty or something. But this is a house that he had just moved into recently. And so for them to have been there
cleaning it is...
PINSKY: Weird.
CHACON: It`s -- it`s beyond...
PINSKY: Too much. Yeah. Pat, last thought.
LALAMA: Yeah. One thing that we haven`t mentioned. They had seven children. And he had custody apparently of the younger ones. And that was part of the
contentiousness of the divorce battle. And we all heard these stories before, Dr. Drew, when people want out and want to go off with their new
boyfriend or girlfriend and there are kids involved, it gets ugly.
PINKSY: Yeah. But it`s also what you call a tell, when they take the kids away from the mom.
LALAMA: Yeah.
PINSKY: That is a tell.
LALAMA: Yes.
PINSKY: Next up, the man who tried to kill President Reagan to get the attention of Jodi Foster. He is a free man after 35 years. Good idea or
not? Back after this.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man who shot Ronald Reagan is set to be freed from a mental hospital after 35 years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was March 30, 1981 when six shots were fired outside the Washington Hilton. President Ronald Reagan, his Press
Secretary, James Brady, and two other people were wounded in that attack. 25-year-old John Hinckley was arrested at the scene.
In June of 1982, Hinckley was found not guilty by reason of insanity. He`s been treated at St. Elizabeth Psychiatric Hospital in Southeast Washington.
And over time, the courts have gradually granted him more unsupervised visits to his mother`s home in Williamsburg, Virginia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The man who attempted to murder a president will go free in just a few days now, John Hinckley Jr. He`s now 61 years of age, deemed to be no
longer a danger to other people or himself. This, a ruling of a federal judge, but not everyone agrees.
Back with Anahita, Bobby, Pat, and Spirit. Hinckley will live under the supervision of his 91-year-old mother in Williamsburg, Virginia. Pat, what
are the other conditions of this release?
LALAMA: Well, first of all, I think it`s important for people to understand that the experts have determined he is no longer psychotic, delusional or
violent.
PINSKY: Pat, I got to interrupt you. I have to interrupt you because -- because I -- I worked at a psychiatric hospital for over a couple of
decades. We had a long-term care unit there and there are no criteria to determine when somebody can get out of those units.
LALAMA: No.
PINSKY: They don`t exist. They try it. They send people out and see how they do and if they can`t do it, they just keep them in these structures.
This guy`s really never been out. So, he`s not delusional but he has chronic paranoid schizophrenia. That`s why he was sent to a mental hospital
and he`s been stable since 2011, right?
LALAMA: Well, yeah. They said since 2003 he`s been having these visits at home. They said since 2011, he`s exhibited nothing. You`re the expert in
this area. I`m only repeating what the experts have told us about why he gets to go on this permanent convalescent leave.
But the important thing is he has to have a GPS phone. He has to go to DC every month. Cannot miss those for his regular mental health visits. He
can`t Google himself. He can`t go on social media without permission. He`s going to do something called music therapy because he said he wants to
produce an album.
PINSKY: Please.
LALAMA: So, you know, we`ll see.
PINSKY: Please.
LALAMA: What can I say?
PINSKY: Please.
LALAMA: You`re the expert here.
PINSKY: Well, I got another, I got Spirit here with this. Spirit, you know what I`m talking about? We just -- we have no criteria that says, okay,
this guy is definitely gonna do well in the outside world. All we know is that he`s not psychotic on meds. He`s gonna see a psychiatrist once a
month. That`s crazy.
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, that`s scary. But you know, see this is the hard part, Dr. Drew. That`s why we have to figure out. We have to
have this mental health conversation. We know that we cannot lock individuals up and have chronic mental health diagnosis forever.
PINSKY: This is somebody who tried to kill the president. This is an assassin.
SPIRIT: It`s different. He tried to kill the president. So see, I`m not a lawyer and I`m not a judge, so I don`t know how long do you lock somebody
up for attempted murder?
PINSKY: Well. As I`ve always said, I`ve got a lawyer here, but as I`ve always said, I am deepenly profound sympathy for mental health until you do
something egregious, then it`s up to the Mental Health System to take over, and that`s Anahita. Go ahead.
SEDAGHATFAR: Okay. So let me correct a lot of people here. They`re saying that he is being released on parole or that he was convicted with attempted
murder...
PINSKY: It`s not parole.
SPIRIT: I didn`t say that.
PINSKY: No. We didn`t say parole. Go ahead.
[19:50:00] SEDAGHATFAR: Okay. Spirit just mentioned that it was for attempted murder. So let me just clarify that he was -- he was not guilty
by reason of insanity. And what that means is that that individual is confined to a mental institution until and if he becomes rehabilitated at
which point he is released to society.
And the judge has convinced you that he doesn`t pose a threat to himself, he doesn`t pose a threat to others, and so constitutionally and legally, he
is allowed to be released.
But I agree with Dr. Drew, I think, how do you monitor somebody 24 hours a day? I just think that there are all these restrictions and then what
about his medication? How do you -- what happens if he doesn`t take his meds?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Bobby, I`m imagining. We have a team of secret service agents because he lives -- gonna live near D.C. now. During an election year.
(CROSSTALK)
CHACON: You don`t have to imagine. You have exactly that because imagine -- imagine if in fact he did go and try to harm the current president or one
of the candidates running for president. What kind of blow back would the secret service have on something like that, right?
So, I think that they are going to put 24/7 surveillance on him for the near future, if not the longer term future. I think that...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You guys.
CHACON: You know, I think a lot, I mean, because just think of the second guessing the secret service would be under if this -- if this guy did, you
know, take advantage of this opportunity that he`s going to have now to gain even more notoriety, you know, which was obviously his initial motive.
(TECHNICAL DIFFICULTY)
PINSKY: ... this guy has had documented grandiosity. This guy is so bigger than the rules even in treatment. So, there`s something characterological
in addition to his psychiatric problems. That`s why this guy attempted to commit assassination of a president.
He wrote a six-page -- six-paragraph letter to Jodi Foster. I don`t have time to really play it for you right now. Let me go to break. I`ll come
back. We`ll keep this conversation going.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: John Hinckley Jr. who attempted to assassinate President Reagan now spent 34 years in a psychiatric institution. He will go free, sort of, on
August 5th. He will be on a convalescent -- I don`t know what they`re doing -- live with his mom under some kind of supervision.
We asked on Twitter if you agree with the judge`s decision. Not so much to judge`s decision, I will say it`s the law, this judge was following the
law. 15 percent said they did. 85 percent said they did not.
Now, before the assassination (inaudible), he sent a six-paragraph letter to Jodi Foster. Foster, of course, the actress. I promised you an audio
recreation. Here it is.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dear Jodi. There`s a definite possibility that I will be killed in my attempt to get Reagan. It is for this very reason that I am
writing you this letter now. As you well know by now, I love you very much. Over the past seven months, I`ve left you dozens of poems, letters, and
love messages in the faint hope that you will develop an interest in me. I love you forever, John Hinckley.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s just a reminder that stalking is dangerous. It just is.
LALAMA: Yeah. You know what? I just found this little piece of information you might be interested in. The court said it will pay particularly close
attention to his relationships with women. Documents indicate that he has had relationship with a woman who suffered from mental illness. Though he
acted as an anchor and advocate.
I mean, you are again the expert in this field, but how do you have this obsession with an actress so much so that you want to try to -- and listen
by the way -- let`s not forget James Brady, the press secretary who ultimately died because of complication...
PINSKY: Shot in the head. Shot in the brain.
LALAMA: Yeah. So, I mean, I don`t know, Dr. Drew. The problem is this is our system. This is the way we`ve constructed our system. What do we do?
PINSKY: I know.
CHACON: I think some of the laws have changed since then. I think that so many people were outraged after this decision when he was found not guilty
by reason of insanity.
People didn`t really understand the law and even even I -- I didn`t graduate law school until several years later, but I think in -- in the
wake of this decision, I think many of those not guilty by reason of insanity laws have now been changed.
PINSKY: In many states, not in D.C. Not where we have the leaders hanging around, which is interesting. But Spirit, you know, Pat asked the question
about how does somebody get this obsessed. It`s what we call psychotic stalking.
SPIRIT: He was psychotic. Yeah.
PINSKY: His brain was not working right. Think about it as a seizure.
LALAMA: Dr. Drew -- Dr. Drew, do you become unpsychotic?
PINSKY: Yeah. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: You become stable. That`s why he hasn`t had an issue in these last several years. We have to figure out what to do with our individuals who
have these mental illnesses. We can`t say everybody whose in Washington is paranoid and schizophrenic. We got to lock them up.
PINSKY: No, no, no.
SPIRIT: We got to figure out this discussion that we`re having. We can`t lock him up forever.
CHACON: I think you cross the line when they knew you try to kill somebody. That`s a line that`s crossed...
PINSKY: Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: It`s different.
(CROSSTALK)
CHACON: ... stable but he has also been in a stable environment.
PINSKY: Right.
CHACON: Now he`s gonna be out on his own.
SPIRIT: I don`t think a 91-year-old mother though is the actual right thing here in this treatment plan.
PINSKY: Oh, my gosh.
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: He`s gonna be monitored. He`s gonna be on GPS. He`s gonna have his cell phone monitored.
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: Dr. Drew, just one of the things, since you bring up the 91-year- old mother, I don`t know what other support system he may have but they are talking about the lack of money this family has, and there is a cost
associated with making sure he keeps up with all the conditions of being released. The worry is will they be able to handle it.
PINSKY: Well.
SPIRIT: But he`s been stable for five years though, I mean...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I`ve seen these long term environments, and I`m telling you, I`ve had people go out of them and fall apart even we thought they would be able
to handle it, but we`ll find out. We`ll keep an eye on this.
Thank you, panel. Well done. Thank you all for watching. Please tell a friend. We are here (inaudible) 7 Eastern. We appreciate your participation
here, guys. Nancy Grace is up next.
[20:00:00]
END
