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Dr. Drew
Man Who Fathered Child at 13 Years of Age Wants the Mother Locked Up; Alabama Mother Who Put Baby in Hot Oven Wants Early Release from Prison; Innocuous Cutaway of Bradley Cooper in DNC Stirs Controversy. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired July 28, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00] DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: A young man who fathered a child at 13 years of age wants the mother of that baby locked up. He says the child was
conceived at a party where he was given alcohol and then sexually assaulted.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 13 year old who looks and plays like a big brother is this toddler`s dad. At 13 years old, Josh Hazelrig became a father. He met
the then 19-year-old mother during a sleepover at a friend`s house.
JOSH HAZELRIG, FATHERED A CHILD AT 13 YEARS OF AGE: That I was 13 and I was -- I was -- there was alcohol supplied so I was not of the right state of
mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well below the age of consent, Josh is a sexual assault victim.
HAZELRIG: And I know what sex is but I never thought of the risk of not using a condom. I was never thinking about the risk of having the child.
KIMBERLY HAZELRIG, MOTHER OF 15-YEAR-OLD TEEN FATHER: I think it was a manipulative game played on a 13-year-old little boy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She wants the justice system to treat him as a victim of statutory rape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And that woman, the perpetrator, is now 21 years old. She`s charged with sexual assault and child abuse. The boy whom you saw there is now 15
and raising their son with his mother.
Joining us, Sara Azari, criminal defense attorney, AnneElise Goetz, attorney, Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist, and Michael Catherwood, my KBC
radio co-host.
Josh`s mother says he had been manipulated as she said there in that tape. AnneElise, do you agree with that?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, BUSINESS LAW ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely I agree with that. We`re talking about a 13-year-old child -- child, Dr.
Drew. The age of consent in Nebraska is 15. The reason we have laws like this is because children are not mature enough and able to make the
decision, able to have informed consent, IE. We have rape and someone needs to go to jail.
PINSKY: But Sarah, you`re not as forgiving about the story. Tell me about this.
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m not. Because again, as you know, and please don`t pick up your plastic brain. There is a difference between
the cases with 50-year-old uncles and their 12-year-old nieces. In this type of a case, why is this kid at a sleepover where there`s alcohol and
older teenagers? Why? Where are his parents in this?
PINSKY: But parents are part of at least what? Parents are part of collateral issue but still there`s a perpetrator. Yeah, it doesn`t matter.
GOETZ: It doesn`t matter. Honestly.
AZARI: Well.
GOETZ: It doesn`t matter what the parents are doing. We certainly shouldn`t be casting blame on the parents of this child who is now raising another
child because someone else raped him. That is not the parents` fault.
AZARI: My point is that the numeric age is not the end and be all to this. It -- it matters as emotional maturity...
PINSKY: He`s 13. Oh, Sara.
AZARI: So what? And the 19 year old could really be 16 mentally.
PINSKY: Sara. I don`t -- okay. Listen. I spoke to Josh`s mom about how he is coping with the trauma around this event. Stacy, you and I will get to
that in a minute. And how he is able to adjust to life. He`s 15. How he deals with fatherhood at age 15. Have a look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: When you found out he was a young teenager when this all happened, what did you think?
HAZELRIG: That my son`s world had just been flipped upside down.
PINSKY: Yeah. How was he during his adolescence? Did he have a lot of behavioral problems?
HAZELRIG: No. Joshua had no behavioral problem. I called him my kid of liquid gold. Anything he touched he excelled in.
PINSKY: When he first talked to you about it, did he understand that he had been the object of really sexual abuse?
HAZELRIG: Yes, he did. In fact, you know, he even told the biological mother when she contacted him saying there was a possibility that it was
his son, that it was statutory rape. He`s always looked at it as him being a victim and, you know, this wasn`t right.
PINSKY: Yeah. A lot of young men at first think it`s sort of cool when they go through something like this but magically they`re kind of ashamed and
don`t tell anybody because they`re very ambivalent about it. And then when they realize as an adult themselves that somebody perpetrated, a lot of
heavy feelings can emerge. Did anything like that happen to him?
HAZELRIG: Joshua internalizes in a lot of what he feels. He is refusing to do any counseling or anything like that.
PINSKY: Okay.
HAZELRIG: So as far as knowing what`s going down deep inside of him, I`m unaware at this time if he had internalized everything.
PINSKY: Where do you hope this whole thing goes?
HAZELRIG: Our end goal is for Joshua to have custody, with me being temporary guardian until Joshua is done attaining his career goals.
PINSKY: Okay. Kim, is there anything else you would like people to know about this experience?
HAZELRIG: Just the trauma that it`s put a little kid through.
PINSKY: Tell me about your grandson, your grandchild?
HAZELRIG: Well, my grandson and my child. It`s in a way hijacked his future.
[19:05:00] PINSKY: Yes.
HAZELRIG: Because everything -- his son comes first, you know, and where most 15-year-olds are out playing, Josh has to come home and be a father.
PINSKY: Yeah.
HAZELRIG: And it really affected his life.
PINSKY: Well, Kim, thank you for talking to us about it. Thank you for being so supportive of both Josh and his son. Thank you so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Ironically after I spoke to her this morning, she did report that there suddenly seemed to be some behavior issues. Maybe they`ve been there
before. She wasn`t really looking for them. And Stacy, you also heard her say that he suppresses his emotions, he refused any type of counseling.
That didn`t tend to go well.
STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No, but actually worries me a great deal. Typically when people are actually suffering from a trauma and oftentimes
young boys, they will shut down. And so part of what we`re seeing is that he actually is being traumatized. It`s just he`s not letting it out.
If I was his mom, I would make him go to counseling. Even though he`s a father, he`s still a young boy, and he needs some guidance and direction.
PINSKY: I mean what 15-year-old has sort of, you know, deep expressive emotion? 15-year-old males are shut down normally. You traumatize them and
they are really shut down. Mike?
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, TALK SHOW HOST: What male? What male has open emotions? Really, I mean...
PINSKY: That`s right. 15 is when really that biology really kicks in. But Mike, you actually went through a similar story and I would wonder if you
would be able to share that.
CATHERWOOD: Yeah. I mean almost -- almost exactly. That`s how I lost my virginity. I was around 13 at the time and the young lady who I was
involved with, she was 19. I did not end up fathering a child from that...
PINSKY: Thank God.
CATHERWOOD: ... from that exercise, which is shocking because I`m Mexican. You know, we would have thought that maybe my blood would have made that
one a touchdown. But I -- I going into it was so excited at the idea of having sex.
I mean, I really, as most middle school boys are, that is the paramount objective of everything that goes through your mind, is the idea of how can
I have sex.
I was so charged up and immediately after it happened I certainly couldn`t regulate my feelings at 13, but I knew something wasn`t right and I knew
that -- it was so awkward for me that I never even talked about it until I was like in my 30s and we were on "love line" when I first opened up about
it, and that`s when you informed me that it was, in fact, rape, which made me feel great.
PINSKY: Well, but to be -- to be fair, I mean, we were just pointing out what it was and then the feelings were able to kind of emerge as a result,
right?
CATHERWOOD: Yeah. And I think that in the original analysis of it, Sara and AnneElise, right? I mean, a 13-year-old boy I think oftentimes because of
the gender when the perpetrator is a woman and the younger kind of victim is a man, we all kind of sit aside and go, well, I`m sure he probably
really wanted it.
And chances are that`s true. But it doesn`t mean that a 13-year-old boy`s brain is in any way capable of dealing with sexual interaction.
AZARI: And also, I don`t -- I`m not gonna -- alcohol is not a defense to this, but we`ve talked about this before with other cases in that there is
something to say about the presence of alcohol in this scenario.
She probably was drinking, too. It`s not a defense for her. He was drinking as well by his own admission and it clearly doesn`t take away from the
trauma that he experienced.
So, you know, the alcohol is also a problem and I`m actually perplexed that there is no furnishing alcohol to a minor charge.
PINSKY: Right. Maybe they don`t know who furnished it. No one`s coming for it obviously.
AZARI: Probably.
CATHERWOOD: I -- I can`t really blame this young man`s parents in this because I know from my experience, you`re definitely not letting your
parents know that you`re going to a party where there`s going to be booze and potential vagina.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Stacy, go ahead.
KAISER: I was just gonna say that I don`t blame the parents. As a matter of fact, I give the parents a lot of credit. They really stepped up, they`ve
taken charge, they`re helping to raise this kid.
What I do give parents warning about is we have to educate our kids about alcohol from a really young age. We have to talk to them about sex, about
handling things, about the fact that someone who is 19 years old is a perpetrator. She`s not just a hot young woman who`s having alcohol with
you.
PINSKY: And do not make it normal for adults to serve alcohol at teenage parties. That should be a zero tolerance. I`m sorry. It will happen but it
needs to be a zero tolerance nonetheless. This conversation continues.
And Later, a baby burned alive by her own mother in a 600-degree oven years ago now asked jailers to keep her locked up. Keep that mother locked up.
We`ll talk about that after this.
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At 13 years old, Josh Hazelrig became a father. The child`s mother, now 21-year-old Brianne McIntosh, faces two felony charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first case that I can recall that I`ve had where the sexes have been reversed.
HAZELRIG: And just because it`s a boy does not mean that she should walk away from a crime.
HAZELRIG: Hi. Hi, buddy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You hear the jokes, good for him, and that kind of stuff. But no, I think the trauma for either sex can be real.
HAZELRIG: I love my child and it`s just kind of overwhelming sometimes and that`s why I have my family here to help me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The research bears that out. Young males do not get through this unscathed. The question is, should a 19-year-old woman who conceived the
child with this 13-year-old boy be charged with a crime?
Back with Sara, AnneElise, Stacy, and Mike. You guys brought up the alcohol to the minor issue. I don`t think alcohol is a major issue here but I do
have very concern about any adults that were serving alcohol to this group of teenagers. How -- Sara, can we get our hands on that information?
Probably too long ago, right?
AZARI: Yeah. We don`t know when this occurred exactly. We don`t know if there were adults that -- that -- whoever the adults were in that house who
purchased the alcohol or maybe one of the teenagers had a fake I.D. and purchased the alcohol. We just don`t know.
PINSKY: AnneElise, what happens -- this mother, the mom, the 19-year-old who`s now, what, 24 or something, 21 I guess, has supervised visitation
right now. What if she becomes a convicted felon? What should this woman`s role be in the child`s life? I mean, should she be providing child support
financially? Should she -- we don`t want to take children away from their moms, even when they`re felons, right?
[19:15:00] GOETZ: We don`t want to take children away from their mother. I agree with that, Dr. Drew. But this woman needs to go to jail. When she
serves her time, when she pays her debt to the community, then yes, she should come out and she can rejoin her child`s life.
Because, Dr. Drew, we`ve talked about this in other episodes. I`m not concerned about the child`s safety. I think that she has a pretty good
argument probably for joint custody when she was released from prison. But what I think we`re doing differently here that I just cannot stand and Mike
touched on this earlier, we are treating this woman differently than we would treat a man.
And our criminal justice system is not set up that way. We don`t give special privileges to anyone based on their sex and that`s what`s going on.
If we had a 19-year-old man having sex with a 13-year-old girl, it would be a totally different conversation and that is the problem.
PINSKY: Well. Yeah. And Mike, not only that. You notice that even the attorney was saying I`ve never seen -- I`ve seen the sexes only reversed.
CATHERWOOD: First time dealing with it, yeah.
PINSKY: Seems to be sort of (inaudible) about it. Well, what you`re gonna do? He understands it`s a big deal, but it is a big deal.
CATHERWOOD: It is a profoundly big deal and it`s certainly, you know, I`ll be very open. It certainly has had long lasting ramifications on my ability
to develop intimacy, what healthy sex even is.
I have a hard time kind of making that -- making that conclusion in my own brain. Still to this day, I`m 37 years old, but it is true. I mean, it is
true that young, you know, preteen and teen boys really, really, really want to have sex.
PINSKY: I understand. They want a lot of other things, too. They may want to eat chocolate cake all day. They may want to throw their pooh at each
other. They may want to do all kinds of crazy stuff. It`s not good for them.
CATHERWOOD: I understand. But even it`s not good, we all look at a 13 or 14-year-old girl as having a tremendously different kind of appetite or
desire for those type of behaviors. And again, I`m not in any way trying to make an excuse for it nor I`m trying to minimize whatever trauma may have
happened to this young man.
But it just goes to show that sometimes I think because of our own animal instincts and our awareness of them, we kind of rationalize why a kid would
do that.
PINSKY: That`s right. We have an interpreter in our brain. Stacy, I saw you really perk up when Mike was talking about the trauma that he experienced,
and boys and girls do experience this trauma differently. It`s not the same trauma. But as you heard Mike say, it has had a profound affect on the arc
of his life and that`s normative for somebody who goes through something like this.
KAISER: I was glad that Mike actually brought that up because one of the things that people don`t realize is there are long-term effects. This boy`s
first sexual experience was with somebody who was much older. He is calling it an assault. He is talking about it being traumatic. And so moving
forward things will be traumatic for him.
I also want to add that this woman is not your average lady. She clearly has developmental delays or psychological issues. For a 19-year-old to be
attracted to and want to lure in a 13-year-old means there is something wrong with them.
AZARI: Where do you get the evidence that she`s attracted to him or lured him in?
KAISER: She had sex with him.
AZARI: Yeah, but that happened...
KAISER: She`s an adult and she had sex with him.
AZARI: Every time you have sex with someone, that doesn`t require luring. And it doesn`t, I mean, she was at a sleepover that she was at. She was
also drunk.
PINSKY: AnneElise, last thoughts here.
GOETZ: We talked about the importance of parenting and the blame of parenting. What we also have to be telling our children is who and when
they can have sex with because if we`re talking about any parenting fault, it`s the fault of the female`s, the fault of the woman`s, because.
PINSKY: What?
GOETZ: ... someone should have told that woman...
PINSKY: Oh, that woman.
GOETZ: ... you can`t sleep -- you can`t sleep with someone that`s younger than you, that`s -- that`s much younger than you.
PINSKY: You have it, but -- but -- but AnneElise, to be fair, Stacy is making the point that that may not have been a receptive individual. And
Mike just raised the question whatever happened to his perpetrator. He`s curious about that. This is 30-plus years later. You`re still thinking
about this person.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, at a profound effect. 24. Don`t age me.
PINSKY: I`m sorry about that. Next up, a baby is broiled alive after her own mother puts her in the oven, a hot oven, head first. Now mom wants out
of jail before her sentence is up.
And later, Bradley Cooper was at the DNC, the Democratic National Convention last night, and he`s getting ripped for sitting just in the
audience of his hometown. Why? I`ll tell you after this.
[19:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This Alabama mother set her oven on broil, put her 14- month-old daughter inside head first, then closed the door. The baby, Ashley Smith, suffered third-degree burns over 30 percent of her body. Her
mother, Melissa Wright, pleaded guilty to attempted murder and was sentenced to 25 years in prison. Now, 14 years later, she wants an early
release.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And tonight, we learned that 40-year-old Melissa Wright has been denied that early release. Her now 15-year-old daughter told the parole
board that she has forgiven her mother, but she cannot trust her. Back with Sara, AnneElise, and Stacy. Joining us is Marty Roney. He`s a reporter for
the Montgomery Advertiser. Marty, tell us what you know about what happened.
MARTY RONEY, REPORRTER FOR MONTGOMERY ADVERTISER: This incident occurred in June of 2002. Melissa Wright was 25 years old at the time. She had two
children, an 8-year-old daughter and 14-month-old Ashley.
According to court testimony, Melissa Wright removed the racks from the oven, set the temperature on broil, and testimony brought out that the oven
had reached 600 degrees.
She placed Ashley head first in the oven and closed the door. Now, Ashley`s father was outside the home, heard the baby`s screams, ran inside, pulled
her from the oven and got the medics there.
Melissa Wright initially told investigating officers on their first contact that she was baking liver at the time and had Ashley in her arms, she went
to check the liver, Ashley twisted, fell out of her arms, fell onto the open oven door, rolled into the oven, then the door closed behind her.
Now, on followup investigation and followup interviews, she admitted that she had heard voices in her head telling her to place Ashley in the oven.
Now, she pleaded guilty in August of 2003 to attempted murder, was given a 25-year sentence. She has served 13 years and nine months.
This past Tuesday, the Alabama Board of Pardons and Paroles reviewed her for parole. Ashley testified at the hearing. Melissa Wright was not there,
as board policy states, the inmates are not at their hearings.
[19:25:00] PINSKY: Right.
RONEY: So the Alabama Board of Pardons and Paroles decided to delay parole until 2021. That for five-year delay, that`s the maximum under Alabama law.
PINSKY: Thank you, Marty. I appreciate that report. Stacy, it`s hard to know what`s going on diagnostically with this woman, but we heard reports
or read some reports that she was having these wild mood swings, going from catatonic to agitated.
The children are running out of the house screaming, the mom is trying to kill them. Why didn`t somebody get in here and treat this woman before this
disaster?
KAISER: I -- I agree with you 100 percent and obviously it`s hard to diagnose but it does sound like something severe. And the fact that she was
in jail and not a hospital where she`s getting psychological care tells me that in all likelihood, she is not being treated for whatever this is, and
it`s really good that she`s still inside.
PINSKY: Well, but AnneElise, let me -- let me ask this. I mean, the reality is that these days, the -- the jail system -- forget the mental health
services in a jail.
The prisons have become the mental health delivery system in our country, and they`re filled with people like this, and, correct me if I`m wrong,
part of that is because an insanity defense, because of John Hinckley, whom we talked about yesterday, part of that evolution, a real insanity defense
is almost impossible to get.
GOETZ: It is incredibly, incredibly difficult and kind of -- if you think about it, Dr. Drew, the principle, the underlying concept there is if you
kill someone -- we talk in my criminal law 101 class.
The second you decide to kill someone, in some senses you have gone crazy, in and of that act alone. When you decide I have the power to take someone
else`s life. So when we are looking at it from a legal perspective, it is incredibly high standard. But, Dr. Drew, what`s important to keep in mind
here is I haven`t heard that that was raised as a defense...
PINSKY: No.
GOETZ: ... so I`m not looking at this as -- as well, you know, she`s going through treatment in jail and she`s working on her problems. I`m happy to
hear that. But frankly, I don`t think it has anything to do with the underlying facts of this case.
PINSKY: I agree. I`m amazed at how rarely the attorneys on either side bring up the mental health issues. And as far as her getting treatment in
prison, that`s just sort of -- sort of minimally part of what we`re obliged to give prisoners, right, Sara?
AZARI: Right. And you and I both know the problem with state funding, mental health treatment in the prison system. I mean, it`s zero. So the
problem I have with this case is that the parole board made a very, very swift decision here.
They essentially looked at these really gruesome photographs of this little girl and they heard her side of the story and they very quickly said, the
early release is denied.
You know, parole boards are required to also look at the rehabilitation or the needs of the inmates. Something that could have been done. I know
there`s no record of rehabilitation because she didn`t get any treatment. It wasn`t part of her sentence.
PINSKY: She gets treatment in jail. I promise you. I promise you. This is a severely ill woman. There`s no way she can survive there without treatment.
AZARI: Another consideration could have been to release her not into the community but into a mental institution where she can get proper treatment.
PINSKY: Sarah, here`s where I have a problem. This woman lied about what she had done. She did something diabolical, lied about it, and changed her
story. That suggests more than the usual and that`s I think where she gets into big trouble here.
AZARI: Look at the other evidence of her standing on her lawn and saying the world is coming to an end.
PINSKY: Oh, no. She`s got severe, severe, severe. Look, here is my point. I make this almost every night on the show. I am deeply sympathetic. Stacy,
back me up. I am deeply sympathetic to people with mental health issues and mental illness, but for God`s sake, get treatment before you hurt herself
or someone else.
[19:30:00] At the point you crossed over, it becomes the legal system that is going to step in. And that should motivate you to get treatment before
something like that happens as opposed to, God forbid, allowing things to unravel so severely. Right, Stacy?
KAISER: Yes, yes, yes, 100 percent. I just want to add that she has a husband. There`s another family member that knew about what was going on
with her. And so often, I end up talking about this when we hear about traumatic happenings and violence.
There`s always some family member that says, oh yeah, well she in the past or he in the past. Those are the moments that we need to intervene. If you
don`t want to confront the person yourself, call law enforcement, get a counselor, get some help.
PINSKY: It`s a medical emergency when a human being disconnects from reality. It could be a medical problem. It could be a brain tumor. It could
be bipolar. It could be a lot of things. Get that person help.
Next up, a man who was at the parole hearing and knows the victim will tell us what she is saying about her mother tonight.
And later, Bradley Cooper played a chef, a sniper, a patient with bipolar disorder, and an FBI agent. What does all that have to do with the DNC?
I`ll tell you after this.
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 14-year-old Ashley Smith was forced to grow up too soon. The last memory of her mother, at 14 months old.
RANDALL HOUSTON: Melissa had removed the racks out of the oven, turned it to broil, waited for it to heat up, and then put Ashley head first into
that -- into that oven.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s why Ashley protested the early release of Melissa Wright. Painful pictures of her wounds quickly captured the board`s
attention.
ASHLEY SMITH: I can`t imagine anyone being in as much pain as I was going through, mentally and physically.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After a short discussion, the board promptly denied Wright`s parole.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Melissa Wright set her oven at broil, put her 14-month-old daughter Ashley inside. She`ll be up for parole again in 2021. Back with Sara,
AnneElise, Stacy. Joining us, Randall Houston, of Alabama District Attorney. He`s been working with Ashley to keep the mom behind bars.
Randall, thanks for joining us.
RANDALL HOUSTON, ELMORE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Thank you, doctor. I`m glad to be here.
PINSKY: Can you clarify, is she getting mental health treatment behind bars, and was that part of her sentencing?
HOUSTON: No, that was not part of her sentencing. A psychiatric evaluation was conducted on Melissa on August 8th of 2002, and the prison evaluation,
the doctor stated that it appears far more likely that this was an act of resentment and displaced aggression.
PINSKY: Wow.
HOUSTON: He pointed out that she frequently characterized her life and situation as being both the bread winner and the primary caregiver. It is
suggested that her resentment, frustration, and displaced aggression about this set of affairs is the most likely explanation.
PINSKY: Hang on, Sara. Randall, I`m going to interrupt you for a second. My panel literally physically reacted to that assessment. So I want to get a
response from them. Sarah, go ahead.
AZARI: Yeah. Randall, did you prosecute the case?
HOUSTON: Yes, I did.
AZARI: Okay. And is this evaluation an independent evaluation or one requested by the prosecution or one that belongs to the defense?
HOUSTON: This is in Alabama. The defense attorney requested evaluation and it`s sent to an independent licensed psychologist in Montgomery.
PINSKY: That -- that is a wild assessment. I mean, not to say that it`s wild in the sense of being inaccurate, wild in sense of the conclusion that
this woman could be that aggressive. Stacy, do you agree with me on this?
KAISER: A 100 percent. Look, I don`t know the person who evaluated her. I wasn`t at the evaluation, but it`s highly unusual that this would just be a
case of aggression.
I mean, if that aggression was going to go at anyone, it might be at her husband, if she was the bread winner. That would have made sense.
PINSKY: But -- but to be fair, AnneElise, we are all the time on this show reporting men that destroy children as a way of getting back at the woman.
That doesn`t mean women aren`t capable of that occasionally.
GOETZ: This woman obviously was. I can`t believe the heinousness of the crime. I want to touch for a second on what just happened with parole
because we heard Sara say we should look at what she`s been doing in jail.
But another very important piece of that parole board is charged with looking at is the seriousness of the crime. And we are talking about a
woman that tried to kill a child, that tried to kill her child in the most heinous way possible.
PINSKY: And then lied about it. Randall, go ahead.
HOUSTON: I was just going to say that the psychologist said there is no basis of support for a psychological diagnosis that would have caused this
patient to engage in this mentally bizarre behavior.
AZARI: Didn`t you -- when you -- when you upon arresting her, didn`t you uncover a bunch of psychotropic meds in her trailer? Weren`t there
witnesses that were saying that she was acting really manic and...
PINSKY: And bizarre.
AZARI: ... and bizarre. I mean, there`s really -- there`s a lot of this overwhelming evidence that contradicts this psychological evaluation and
I`m wondering, and I know you can`t speak for the defense attorney, but if you can tell us what was the defense`s position in all of this in response
to this evaluation?
HOUSTON: Well, part of the defense -- the defense was planning to argue that she was psychologically unstable. That was going to be the basis of
their defense. And of course, you know, we had this evaluation. My position was she wasn`t crazy, she was just mean as hell.
PINSKY: Randall, given that assessment, what`s your biggest concern about her being released?
[19:40:00] HOUSTON: Well, my biggest concern, I`ll be honest with you, is I don`t want her to have any contact with Ashley until Ashley is an adult and
can make that decision for herself.
PINSKY: Well, Randall, I want to interrupt you. So, if she gets out now, she will have -- she will be the parent, right? She has parenting rights.
HOUSTON: Her parental rights were never terminated and they`re not automatically terminated by the crime. That has to be done in a separate
civil proceeding. The mother that raised her is adamant that she does not want her former sister-in-law to have any contact with this child. And the
child, she is -- she is an outstanding young lady.
PINSKY: She looks it.
AZARI: Randall, couldn`t it be -- couldn`t it be a condition of her parole if she is released on parole early, couldn`t it still be a condition of her
parole not to have any contact with this girl?
HOUSTON: I`m sure it could be but I still think she deserves to be in prison for what she did. I mean, she...
PINSKY: Sarah, take off your defense -- your defense hat for just a millisecond here. Come on now, take it off. Can you do that for me?
AZARI: It`s off.
PINSKY: Okay. Thank you. Right. I think he gives a pretty compelling case for someone that probably -- I mean, again, sympathetic. I don`t know that
that psychologist is the only assessment. Maybe he got it wrong. But the fact that he could even believe that she is that aggressive, that`s a
pretty good -- pretty damming. Randall, last thoughts, go ahead.
HOUSTON: Last thoughts, I just want to tell everybody, Ashley is doing great.
PINSKY: Great.
HOUSTON: She is a well adjusted child, thanks in large part to Children`s Hospital in Birmingham and Camp Conquest which is the burn camp for
children who have been burned. They do a wonderful job of helping improve their self-esteem and confidence. She is an incredible young lady.
I was asked by a reporter the other day if she wanted her mother in jail because she was afraid, and my answer to them and to you is that this child
is not afraid of anything.
PINSKY: It`s also a testimony to the fact that -- testament to the fact that treatment works, sustained relationships with quality adults can
change a trajectory of a child even when the circumstances seem unimaginable. Thank you all. We`ve got to go.
Next up, Bradley Cooper, star of "American Sniper" is taking heat for merely having attended the Democratic National Convention. Some presume
that because he had played the Navy SEAL, he was a Republican. We`ll talk about it after this.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Major controversy at the DNC last night. In the middle of Tim Kaine`s speech, this happened on C-SPAN. A seemingly innocuous
cutaway showed Bradley Cooper sitting with his girlfriend in the audience. Yes, the same Bradley Cooper who played Chris Kyle in "American Sniper".
BRADLEY COOPER: I just want to get the bad guys. If i can`t see them, I can`t shoot them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because of that role, apparently some people assumed he was a Republican.
COOPER: I`m a fan of politics.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you really?
COOPER: Yes, yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fallout was swift. Many taking to Twitter to express their shock and disappointment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bradley Cooper at DNC? Guess I`ve seen my last Bradley Cooper movie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a list of celebrities that support socialism. I refuse to spend another dollar on. Add this one, boycott them all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Others jumped to his defense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Newsflash, Arnold Schwarzenegger is not a robot and Julia Roberts is not a prostitute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s very funny. Superstar Bradley Cooper is getting slammed on Twitter after having been caught just merely sitting -- he was on camera.
He was just sitting at the DNC last night listening. Back with Sara, Stacy, and Mike.
Joining us from the phone and from the convention in Philadelphia, I`ve got Brian Stelter, CNN senior media correspondent. Brian, how crazy is this
getting?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, think it was a wake up call for a lot of fans of "American Sniper." I do associate him with that
movie, many other people do as well. But let`s be honest, most elite actors in Hollywood are Democrats. Some are more open about it than others.
Bradley Cooper wasn`t on stage. He was just watching. He`s a silly guy here. So he wanted to be here, part of the show. But he`s far from the only
celebrity even if they play Republicans who are secretly Democrats.
PINSKY: I`m just thinking about people that may -- what Daniel Day-Lewis. He played a Republican. He played Abraham Lincoln. Is he not allowed to go
to the Democratic convention or not allowed to vote democratic? But Brian, my question is, has he responded to this as well? Has he put anything out
on social media or anything like that?
STELTER: No. You know, I think -- I think he`s been smart to let this one go. You know, what can you say? You don`t want to apologize for going to
the convention. That would kind of fall flat, wouldn`t it?
PINSKY: Yes, I would think so. Brian, thanks so much. Have fun at the convention tonight. Mike, what`s wrong with people? He was playing a
character in a movie.
CATHERWOOD: Yeah. Honestly what I don`t understand is, look, people are going to have their feelings about stars that they like and if they don`t
meet up with their -- they`re not congruent with their political beliefs, people get upset.
What I don`t understand is people are angry because he portrayed Chris Kyle, he must not be a Democrat, but isn`t the head of the American forces
in Afghanistan speaking on stage tonight at the DNC? Like, that`s a man that`s pretty much...
PINSKY: Sara?
AZARI: The movie was not even -- it didn`t have a political agenda. It was about American snipers. So, you know, these people with these stupid
tweets. It`s like you should never assume this. It`s an unreasonable assumption and you would have never been disappointed.
By the way, Governor Schwarzenegger made a video appearance at the DNC. Why isn`t there outrage over that?
PINSKY: I think he`s a Republican.
AZARI: Yes, he is. His appearance was on a very democratic issue, a hot issue, which is global warming, which in fact is a Chinese hoax to the
Republicans.
[19:50:00] CATHERWOOD: It`s hot. It`s so hot.
PINSKY: I was just in China. I`ll assure you they`re not paying much attention to him.
CATHERWOOD: I`m just being colder (ph), Dr. Drew. Arnold Schwarzenegger actually made an appearance because he heard that Irina Shayk was gonna be
there with Bradley Cooper. He was hoping to get in her pants.
PINSKY: Alright. I`m a Josh-ad (ph) fan. He originated the roles in "Book of Mormon". He posted it on Twitter, really great, a great tweet. He said,
if you`re that pissed about Bradley Cooper being at the DNC because of "American Sniper", might I suggest imagining him as a Rocket Raccoon.
He was the voice of Rocket in "Guardians of the Galaxy." So, Stacy, we gonna hold him to be that character too and therefore he can`t go be
anything other than the Rocket Raccoon?
KAISER: Apparently he needs to think about his future movie roles so that he can please his audience. But I just want to throw one thing out there.
Often times we think that we want celebrities to be like us. We want to be like celebrities. I think that`s part of what`s going on here. Those
Republican who loved him thought he was like them. And so, he`s a disappointment for that reason.
PINSKY: Stacy, you just brought up a kind of a peculiar point there by saying he should select his roles more carefully. But -- but I think...
KAISER: I was kidding.
PINSKY: ... no, but listen. I know you`re kidding, but I have a feeling that Hollywood back in the day did things like that. That they sort of
cultivated, you know, cultivated a cult of particular personas.
And those personas became more real than the individual and the individual themselves really didn`t matter so much as whatever they have cultivated.
Think about Errol Flynn, things like that, Mike, right?
CATHERWOOD: Right. But also that was in an era when there wasn`t as much transparency between the people.
PINSKY: But I think we`re primitively attached to those ideas or maybe some generations are or something.
KAISER: I actually think Bill Cosby is a great example. A lot of people thought he was Cliff Huxtable, like Mr. Family Guy, Mr. Fabulous, and so
it`s really been a hard pill to swallow, to watch what`s been going on with him currently.
PINSKY: Wait, Mike, something`s going on with Bill Cosby?
CATHERWOOD: I`m not aware. Is there controversy currently with Mr. Cosby?
PINSKY: I guess so, yes. Listen. We got a lot more to talk about. We`ll take a break. We`ll be right back after this.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Bradley Cooper played for Chris Kyle in the movie "American Sniper" in 2014, and for that reason, some people seemed to assume he is a
Republican. Well, he was at the Democratic Convention last night and people seemed to get a little ticked off.
Back with Sara, Stacy, and Mike. Let me show you some of the reaction on Twitter. Dan said, quote, this Bradley Cooper thing had me so upset. I`m
going to burn all his DVDs. Mrs. Spooky said, really disappointed to see Bradley Cooper at the DNC, but oh well. And then David, Bradley Cooper is
promoting Hilary too bad. He`s dead to me. Mike, dead to me. People are getting very aggressive now.
CATHERWOOD: You know, the good side is that if you`re a big liberal and then you saw Scott Baio and Antonio Sabato Jr. at the RNC, you don`t have
to burn any of their work because there isn`t any.
PINSKY: Well, but, Stacy, that`s an interesting point, which is that the DNC seems to get much more celebrity traffic. A lot more certainly cooler
celebrities. What do you think that`s all about?
KAISER: I mean, you sort of said it. It seems to be that the people in the entertainment industry tend to lean towards democratic. I also think that,
I just have to say as an aside that the Republicans are upset that they don`t have someone super hot in the audience.
CATHERWOOD: Besides Ivanka.
KAISER: On the guy side.
PINSKY: My friend said that Ivanka is the most impressive human. Listen. He said -- he was not unprovoked. He said that he was not talking about her or
anything except as a human being. He said she`s the most impressive human he has ever met. I said, wow. That is something. Sara, go head.
AZARI: Yeah. I was just gonna say Ivanka nullified the hotness factor with the plagiarism thing. So, I don`t think...
PINSKY: No, no, no, that was Melania.
AZARI: Oh, Melania. Okay. I`m sorry. Ivanka, the daughter.
PINSKY: Yeah, the daughter.
AZARI: But you know what? How about Bradley Cooper just can`t do any wrong. He`s just perfect. He can`t do any wrong.
PINSKY: Listen to these women.
CATHERWOOD: Listen. He showed up there with Irina Shayk or whatever her name is.
AZARI: Right. And she can`t do any wrong either.
CATHERWOOD: I agree. Good for him. I don`t care. He could be a communist for all I care.
PINSKY: Is she the one in the picture there?
CATHERWOOD: Yeah. Look at her. And by the way, she`s not doing any stereotype of really attractive women not being tuned -- tuned -- tuned
into politics and current events. She`s not doing them any favors with rolling her eyes.
PINSKY: Who knows what`s going on at the time? You`re stereotyping. Who knows what was going on at the convention.
CATHERWOOD: Yeah, I know. I can be right. I`m sure she`s just like an incredible sharp political mind.
PINSKY: Oh, dude.
CATHERWOOD: That`s why exactly why Bradley Cooper is with her is because of her -- her incredible political...
PINSKY: You don`t know that. Come on.
CATHERWOOD: I do know that. I know.
PINSKY: Ladies, help me out a bit a little bit, will you?
CATHERWOOD: They`re not gonna defend her.
PINSKY: You`re right.
KAISER: I don`t know her.
PINSKY: Okay. Well.
CATHERWOOD: I`ve spent hours alone with images of her. And I know her very well.
PINSKY: Here`s the deal. I think it is that -- that some of these performers, they are artists, right? And they come into a lot of wealth
very suddenly, sort of easy come, easy go. They don`t have to scrape a business together. They don`t have to make payrolls and things like that
very often.
So, they may just change how they see the political process of government. And they want to do good. And I think that`s another thing. You know, when
you are being a performer and you fall into a good fortune, you want to give back. And I can see where it will be appealing for them to do so.
Sara, you agree?
AZARI: Yeah, I do agree. I think at the end of the day, the bottom line here is that someone`s art doesn`t dictate their politics. What they do in
a movie, in a documentary, whatever it is, doesn`t mean that`s what they are in real life. I mean, even if the movie had a political agenda in it
and even if it was all about Republicans, that doesn`t mean he, himself, has republican believes.
PINSKY: I`m going to switch topics real quick. Our friend, Jessica Taylor. She`s a pilot, a friend of the show, been promoted to captain at one the
country`s major airlines congratulations, Jessica. We are in good hands with you at the control. I cant wait to run into you somebody through my
travels. Nancy Grace, up next.
[20:00:00]
END
