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Dr. Drew
Black Woman Shot by Police in Baltimore; Marijuana Candy to Blame for Murder?; Health Hazards at the Olympics. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired August 03, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: A black woman in Baltimore shot dead by police. Her 5-year-old son wounded after a seven-hour standoff. She live
streamed much of this encounter on Facebook. And just before she was killed, posted two Instagram videos.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops show up at the home of Korryn Gaines.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they arrived at the apartment, they find out that the woman was armed with a juvenile in the apartment with her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gaines was posting video of the operation as it unfolded. She had brought the weapon up to the ready position. If you don`t
believe, we are going to kill you. We discharged one round at her. In turn she fired some rounds back at us. Our personnel returned three rounds of
fire, striking her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me, Sherra Elizabeth, attorney, Jena Kravitz, neuropsychologist, Bobby Chacon, retired FBI agent, attorney, Tariq
Nasheed, film maker, his documentary, Hidden Colors 4, is available now on Amazon, and Sara Ganim, CNN correspondent. Sara, there`s a lot more in the
story. Please give me what you got.
SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That`s right. You know, Baltimore police are saying this is really a case of someone who was not cooperating with police
orders. When they showed up at this home to serve this arrest warrant, they were doing it for serving two warrants on two different people.
The man who was inside the house, he left the house, cooperated with police, and was arrested without incident. He actually left with another
child, 1-year-old child.
But Korryn Gaines did not leave the house. She barricaded herself inside with a 12-gauge shotgun and police say that`s why the standoff happened. Of
course, we also know and very sadly, she was with her 5-year-old child during the course of the standoff, interviewing him in a sort of way with
her cell phone, posting video to Instagram and attempting to post some of it, attempting to live stream on Facebook.
We know that, you know, we`ve seen this type of live streaming during police incidents on the rise lately. One of the interesting things here is
that police seem to have become to catch up with this technology.
They actually during the standoff, contacted Facebook, asked them to deactivate the Facebook live stream because they say that other people were
getting on Facebook, commenting to Korryn Gaines, telling her that she should not cooperate with police.
Of course, that goes against everything that people are told to do during encounters with the police. I also we want to show you some of the
interactions she had with her 5-year-old son.
I do want to say before we played this that the child whose face we blurred, he appears to give some halting answers. He hesitates at times,
raising the possibility the questions of whether or not he may have been coached. Take a look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s happening right now? Who was outside?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are they trying to do? Sergeant, what are they trying to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re trying to kill us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s good. Do you want to go out there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Let`s talk about this incident. Bobby, let me go out to you first if you don`t mind. Sara, do you want to finish here real quick?
GANIM: Well, I was going to say it was shortly after that that police fired a shot and then she returned with shots fired and that`s when police fired
three more shots and she was killed. Her little boy injured. An arm injury. His arm, police say, was grazed. It`s unclear whether that was from
shrapnel or from a bullet, Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you, Sara. Bobby, is this how police should conduct themselves in situations like this? I mean...
BOBBY CHACON, SPECIAL AGENT, FBI (RET): Well, actually, Drew, I think that this situation never should have got this far to begin with.
PINSKY: Right.
CHACON: After the initial arrest for what she was wanted on failure to appear warrant, when she was getting out of the car, she struggled, she
wouldn`t recognize the officer`s authority to detain her and to ask her questions about her identity and the vehicle.
And then she was urging her 4-year-old son or 5-year-old son that was on the video to bite the police officers that were trying to remove him from
the vehicle.
And she was screaming at the boy to bite the police officers and make the officers bleed. This is a mentally deranged woman. Those children should
have been removed from her care and the mental health system should have been addressing her.
President Obama recently said that we are failing the police officers in this country because we are making them do too much. This is a situation
that -- that we failed the police in the situation and we failed this mentally ill woman.
[19:05:00] PINSKY: Sherra, you agree?
SHERRA ELIZABETH, ATTORNEY: I disagree, De. Drew. First of all, let me say thank goodness for cell phone videos and Facebook and social media because
otherwise, we wouldn`t have even known really about this incident and exactly what happened.
And we know for years, for decades, people have been complaining about police misconduct and they haven`t been believed. So now we can finally
look at these videos and see what`s really happening.
The issue here is that they asked the -- they asked the people on Facebook to take it down, right? To take the Facebook video down. Why? Why can`t we
see what`s happening? Why can`t we have the police.
CHACON: You can afterwards. But during the -- during the crisis, those are tactical situations. And for the safety of the officers and safety of
everyone involved, people should not be watching and -- and encouraging her to resist the police.
ELIZABETH: Let`s talk about that safety. Why didn`t the police officers have body cameras on? They had a six-hour standoff with this woman. They
could have come. They could have shown us from their perspective what was going on.
This is -- this is not a Hollywood production for your entertainment. This is a police operation. The objective of which is to get her safely out of
there if possible. It`s not for the rest of our amusement. The cameras are not there for our amusement.
PINSKY: Let me -- let me -- let`s look at the live stream that was mentioned by Bobby a minute ago where she was brought out of a car. I
believe we have that. Do we not?
She was pulled over for not having a valid license plate. The license plate, if you guys would show it to me, I can read it here. I`ll show you
the encounter first. Let`s take a look at it.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They tell you to get out this car or take your seat belt off. You do not get out this car. Do you understand?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You better (beep). Final, do you hear me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, mam. Here is your citation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can keep that. No. I won`t be accepting those.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t have to sign them. That doesn`t mean you`re guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. I don`t want them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay, but I have to give them to you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t put your hands on me. I promise you, you will -- you will have to murder me. You will have to murder me. So go ahead and get
ready to do that. You will have to kill me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jena, Bobby says that`s a sign of mental illness. I don`t see mental illness per se there. Is that what that is?
JENA KRAVITZ, NEUROPSYCHOLOGIST: I agree with you, Dr. Drew. I don`t think this is mental illness. What this is is a woman whose living in 2016 who`s
looking, you know, seeing the media of what`s going on in our country right now and all around our neighborhood, whose angry, whose hostile, whose
afraid, and she`s protecting her child. I don`t think that this is mental illness. I think this is...
CHACON: She`s driving with a license plate that reads "free traveler, you have no authority over me." She`s -- she`s one of these people who doesn`t
recognize the authority of the government or the police.
PINSKY: So, that`s a sovereign citizen movement.
CHACON: It`s -- it`s beyond that. In this situation, it`s a little beyond that.
PINSKY: All right. Listen. I still got to get Tariq`s input on this. I`ve got some of her disturbing Instagram posts. Someone -- you would think
someone would have seen something coming here and stop it somehow, at least. I wonder we could have done. Maybe mental health intervention. I`m
not sure.
And later, mosquitos and dirty water, are the real Olympics being upstaged by health hazards? Back after this.
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say they were serving arrest warrants when Korryn Gaines repeatedly threatened them with a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Part of this is live streamed on Facebook. Her 5-year- old son is in there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Korryn Gaines told them, quote, if you don`t leave, I`m going to kill you. Gun shots were exchanged, leaving 23-
year-old Gaines dead and the 5-year-old with a gun shot wound.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A 23-year-old black woman killed by police after a seven-hour standoff. Now, throughout the encounter, she live streamed on Facebook.
Some of her followers were encouraging her to disobey the police so it was deactivated.
Back with Sherra, Jena, Bobby, Tariq, and Sara. All right. Tariq, what should have happened here? How could this have gone down in a way that she
would have ended up getting through this without any trouble?
TARIQ NASHEED, FILM MAKER: Well, they should have treated this situation like they treated the situation with Cliven Bundy and his militia group in
Nevada. They should have treated it like the situation with the standoff with the militia group in Oregon where they had guns pointed at law
enforcement for months at a time.
They could have went in there and neutralized the situation without murdering that young lady and shooting her son. There were several
nonlethal methods they could have utilized to neutralize the situation. But unfortunately, when it comes to black citizens, it`s the shoot to kill
mentality and that`s a problem that we have.
PINSKY: Bobby, what about doing something less -- taking longer with this? Doing -- creating standoff.
CHACON: I actually agree with Tariq on that. I think that they could have backed off, established a perimeter. They could have sent a robot in just
to observe. They could have -- I think there are less lethal options that more police departments need to explore in situations like this.
I think you need to bring in possibly a mental health professional to talk to her while she is in there. Many police officers are not trained to talk
to individuals when they are in this state. So I think there needed to be a hostage negotiator brought in, and I think they needed to back off,
establish a perimeter, and -- and maybe -- maybe use other means to address the situation.
PINSKY: So, I know what -- Tariq, I know what you`re thinking, which is there was a bias that -- that caused them not to do what Bobby is
suggesting, right?
NASHEED: Absolutely. This is over a traffic warrant. So, nobody should be executed over a traffic warrant.
PINSKY: Okay. So, Bobby, how do you address that? How would you talk Tariq out of that idea?
CHACON: Well, I -- I don`t approach it from that idea. So, it`s really difficult for me to put myself into his mind set. I don`t -- I don`t come
from the same perspective.
PINSKY: I understand that. But given that, and that you`re both agreeing on what should have happened, what happened re-enforces his perception. How do
you help him understand that there was a lack of training, perhaps?
CHACON: It could be lack of training. I`m not familiar with this police department and their training and their -- their equipment. But I think
maybe it`s time for a more national debate on policing and those kind of tactics. I know a lot of large police departments, large cities have them.
But, you know, maybe it`s time for leadership on a national level.
[19:15:00] PINSKY: I`ve been saying that for a long time. There is such tremendous variation among various police force. But, Sherra, you know what
I`m getting at here. Just solve this for me. Help me.
ELIZABETH: It`s not simple, Dr. Drew. I totally agree with the bias aspect. I mean, if the police would have done just a little bit more research, they
would have found as other media reports have reported that she was suffering from lead poisoning. So this is a potential hostile situation
even before you come in.
PINSKY: Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Help me. Now, Sara, you`ve got that down, I believe. Tell me about this lead poisoning theory.
GANIM: Yes. We have found -- we have found that she -- a lawsuit was filed on her behalf over lead poisoning, that she was exposed, that she suffered
from as a child.
PINSKY: As a child.
GANIM: To give you an idea of how severe it was, between 7 months and 36 months old, the entire time she was tested incrementally, the entire time
she was testing above the level that is considered safe of the amount of lead in a child.
In addition to that, when her lawsuit was filed, documents show that -- it was -- it was determined that she had a history of problems with anger and
impulsive behavior, but however, had said there is no report of psychiatric or psychological assessment or any specific diagnosis of a mental illness
except that she did consistently have high levels of lead.
Also I want to just add in, you know, there`s been a lot of discussion about this from a factual standpoint. The police are seen in some of that
video that she posted. They are seen in the doorway talking to her. She was having a conversation with them.
In addition to that, I`m not sure if I mentioned this before, but she was specifically threatening the police saying, if you come in here, I will
shoot you. So she was making specific threats to the police.
PINSKY: Right. Well, she made good on it, too. When they came in, she did shoot. But Jena, this is a new wrinkle, right? So this is perhaps some
neuropsychological disturbance caused by excessive lead exposure. Tell me about what that could be.
KRAVITZ: Well, I mean, it could be anything from mood disorders to cognitive dysfunction.
PINKSY: Hang on. Impulse control problems?
KRAVITZ: Yes. Some impulse control problems but being defiant? I don`t think that`s necessarily consistent with lead poisoning. I really think
what you have here...
PINSKY: What about -- what about the social issue plus the neurobiological issue, right? You put the two together and you get a pretty bad sue.
KRAVITZ: And it`s 2016 and she is anxious. Her fight or flight system is activated. Her adrenaline is going and she`s thinking, yes, if you come in
here, I`m going to attack you. Because, you know, she is surrounded by this. We all are at this point.
PINSKY: Tariq, what do we do from a solution standpoint? I -- I like to stay on the solutions. Can we solve this?
NASHEED: Right. Because I`m not really going with the whole lead poisoning narrative, because the thing is, the only lead that sister had a problem
with was the lead coming from the suspected race soldiers who executed her in front of her son.
And that`s the narrative we have to talk about. Why are we allowing black citizens to be executed with the constitution violated on a regular basis?
PINSKY: There was a lot packed into that statement. I`m still looking for solutions. What can we do? Sherra says -- Bobby says the training -- Bobby
says the national conversation about police standards. Go ahead, Tariq.
NASHEED: It`s not about training. You gonna have to punish certain people who work within law enforcement acting as race soldiers as the FBI warned
us about in 2006.
Once these people are punished, people who are classified as black will not have a fear of going out and interacting with people in law enforcement.
That will be the major solution right there.
PINSKY: Let me -- I`m not sure, Tariq, that would be enough. I mean, look a this woman`s sons. Korryn`s sons are gonna have trouble for the rest of
their lives looking at police officers and not thinking about what happened to their mom, right?
NASHEED: Even if that didn`t happen to their mother, they are black children who still have to look over their shoulder and be fearful from
police officers. Look at what happened with Tamir Rice in Ohio. You have black children who are targeted and shot by people who work in the law
enforcement.
PINSKY: We`ve got to stay on the solution. Bobby, we`ve got to do something, right?
CHACON: Yeah. I think, you know, I think that -- I wish that with all the talk that President Obama has done over the last couple of months and years
on this issue, I wish he would have done a little more.
He had a police commission that came up with some recommendations, but I think that he needed to be a little more out front with this issue and
little bit more of a leader on this issue.
And -- and maybe, you know, who knows? There`s a lot of different possibilities. He could have appointed a czar, one of these white house
czars to start looking into these things and take the commission`s recommendations, try to get them, you know, enforced. There`s a lot of
things that could be done, but you need leadership to do them.
PINSKY: Okay. Sherra, last thoughts.
ELIZABETH: It`s also gonna take the police officers who are witnessing this bad conduct by their colleagues to speak out. They need to blow the
whistle.
PINSKY: All right. So, the profession needs to take care of itself. There needs to be increasing standards. There needs to be leadership. Tariq,
you`re nodding your head on all that. Can -- can I have a nod on that?
NASHEED: Yes, indeed.
PINSKY: Okay.
NASHEED: We need to protect black citizens, too.
[19:20:00] PINSKY: Fair enough. All right. Next up. Is Cannabis candy responsible for a murder? The death of a young mother allegedly at the
hands of her husband.
And later, the Rio Olympics. Are they been the unhealthiest games ever? Are the athletes actually in danger? We are getting into it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did pot candy cause this Colorado man to murder his wife? Richard Kirk reportedly ate the candy and was hallucinating. That`s
when his wife, Christine, called 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her husband has been smoking marijuana.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He allegedly grabbed the gun from the safe and shot her in the head while she was on the phone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The wife was in open line saying a male had a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Richard pleaded not guilty to murdering the mother of their three young children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All we have is the screaming in the background.
[19:25:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But will a Colorado jury buy a "marijuana made me do it" defense?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Richard Kirk has since pleaded not guilty as you heard by reasons of insanity. Now this, a first, his three children have filed a wrongful
death suit against the store and manufacturer that sold this man the marijuana candy that they say triggered the deadly behavior. Back with
Sherra and Jena, and joining us, Danny Cevallos, attorney, CNN legal analyst. Danny, what do you make of this lawsuit?
DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Here`s the thing with this lawsuit. The plaintiff in their complaint, they have laid out a strong case on paper for
strict liability, negligence, all the causes of action you can allege against a product.
But ultimately, they are going to have to prove in the case of negligence, causation. They have to prove that this drug actually caused the undesired
effect. In the case of products liability, they have to show that this product was unreasonably dangerous.
And if they are saying they failed to warn, then the plaintiff has to show that this was a foreseeable outcome. If you look at their complaint, they
have plenty of medical testimony, but that doesn`t win the case. That just gets you to trial, and you better believe the defendant is going to have
their own experts testify.
It`s going to be a battle of the experts, and the issue will be, is marijuana something that people all agree it`s foreseeable that someone
would go on a rampage after consuming it?
PINSKY: According to a search warrant, investigators found a piece of the partially eaten candy, a unsmoked cannabis joint and an empty bottle of
hydrocodone. This man had chronic back pains.
So, Jena, my question is, was this an opioid withdrawal syndrome that maybe -- maybe he was trying to deal with with Cannabis and maybe the Cannabis
made it worse or maybe the withdrawal was the entire story?
KRAVITZ: Well, it`s certainly an interaction between the two. One of the news reports had said though that he -- the wife had suggested to the 911
operator or somebody that he had taken some of that medication earlier in the day. So my question then would be, could it really be an opioid
withdrawal unless he was actually taking a much lower dose than he was used to and then maybe it was. Because...
PINSKY: I`m going to make the case it probably was.
KRAVITZ: Okay.
PINSKY: They found an empty bottle. Listen. This guy -- this all happened right at the time when doctors were beginning to become aware of the opioid
epidemic and were starting to cut patients off.
And this guy may have taken just one that day. Maybe normally took 30 and thought, okay, I`ll do the Cannabis to try to get by and get through this
withdrawal which is not totally unreasonable.
KRAVITZ: Yeah. The clinical picture does look more like an opioid withdrawal because, you know, you see that hopelessness. He thought the
world was gonna end. He`s very anxious and paranoid. That`s not really what we see in these marijuana overuses. But I think the interaction between the
two could potentially have created this disaster.
PINSKY: The lawsuit alleges, quote, the packaging and labeling for the potent candy contained no directions, instructions or recommendations
respecting the product`s proper consumption.
So, Sherra, should it have that labeling, and is Danny right? You still have to show causation that there was a reasonable expectation that
Cannabis could cause a reaction like this?
ELIZABETH: Yes. You still have to show causation, but this is the point. This is a product on the market to consumers with no instructions, no
directions, no recommendations on dosage, no recommendations on drug interactions with other drugs that the patient or the person might be
taking. And that`s a huge issue.
The question in this case is whether the drug manufacturer or seller was negligent in failing to put an instruction on that product.
PINSKY: Well, remember this is now a recreational product in Colorado. It`s not a pharmaceutical agent. That is a really interesting question. Should
they be obliged to talk about the pharmacology or the medical applications in the use of a recreational product?
ELIZABETH: I think so, Dr. Drew. It`s a drug. The research shows that people are much more likely to overdose on an edible than they would if
they were smoking marijuana.
PINSKY: You`re right. The E.R. visits for toxic reactions to edible marijuanas are off the chain now especially for Out-Of-Towners. They made a
comedy on this.
But Danny, Sherra puts a fine point at something interesting here to me which is, people can get drunk and react violently with recreational
product, alcohol, but alcohol manufacturers, do they assume that liability? This happens a lot. So there is a reasonable expectation. Should they be
required to be sort of pharmacology oriented?
CEVALLOS: Look at all the ads for alcohol. You always see them say, enjoy safely, which sounds ridiculous. Because with alcohol, unlike most other
drugs, we just give people as much as they want.
You can buy a bottle of gin and take it home and dose yourself as much as you like. And as the great Dr. Drew says, there are no free rides when it
comes to any kind of drug deal...
PINSKY: That`s right.
CEVALLOS: ... that being marijuana or alcohol or prescription drugs. Now, historically in America, we have given in the products liability world, a
bit of a pass to drugs, with the understanding that...
[19:30:00] PINSKY: The recreational drugs.
CEVALLOS: ... drugs are risky.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Medication or recreational drugs. Yeah. Go ahead.
CEVALLOS: That`s my point.
PINSKY: Yeah. Go ahead.
CEVALLOS: That`s my point. The medication we`ve given a pass to drugs and a little bit in products liability. Because we say, yes, they are risky, yes,
you can take a whole bottle of something. But the benefit of drugs is so great. Drugs occupy a special place.
Marijuana is different because it is still, under federal law, an illegal drug. It`s not a traditional prescription drug. And yes, these products are
sold -- if they`re sold without adequate warnings, it`s really more because we are in a brave new frontier...
PINSKY: Right.
CEVALLOS: ... of drug and you could call it a prescription, but the reality is, this is a lot more -- less like a prescription and more like somebody
down at the bar slinging shots...
PINSKY: Right.
CEVALLOS: ... with really no attention to dosage whatsoever.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right. It`s Kirk`s (ph) recreational drug. Jena, what are you trying to say?
KRAVITZ: Yeah. And the other thing is, you know, I was thinking, because there are so few regulations on this and you`re probably more of an expert
than I am, but how do we know that this is actually pure in terms of the THC?
I mean, they are making these in facilities that potentially have other chemicals or other drugs available.
PINKSY: Well, interestingly the marketplace has taken care of that. The more pure, the more they charge, the more likely they are to get the
customers. But Sherra, you have a comment here too.
ELIZABETH: Lawsuits like this are important. Because actually, the law has now changed in Colorado in terms of packaging recreational marijuana and
making sure the levels are not too high for people to just consume as they see fit. So, things like this are important in moving the needle and
protecting consumers who don`t know better.
PINSKY: There is a big wrinkle in this case too which is circulating blood levels of cannabis were not high. They were not that high. He had eaten a
bunch, but it hadn`t gotten to his blood system yet.
So how then can you make that connection between what is circulating in his blood and acute toxic reaction. Assume they`re gonna talk about the rate of
increase, but when you taken orally, the rate of increase is quite slow.
Drugs come into your system slowly is when you achieve the toxic levels that you get the toxic reaction. We`ll keep this conversation going with an
opponent of legalized marijuana.
And later, everyone is talking about Zika virus at the Olympic games, but I`m here to tell you, there are much more dangerous problems like the
polluted water. We`ll get into it after this.
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This man is behind bars. Accused of shooting and killing his wife while reportedly high on pot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her husband has been smoking marijuana.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources say Richard Kirk ate edible marijuana and was hallucinating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A wife with an open line screaming that a male had a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was hallucinating, scaring the kids, talking about the end of the world, and telling her to shoot him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: and when she refused, police say her husband pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right after he killed his wife, he walked into his 7- year-old son`s bedroom and asked him to kill him, so that mom and dad could be together.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The manufacturer that sold the edible cannabis to Richard Kirk have now been hit with a wrongful death suit. Kirk`s family alleges the pot-
laced candy caused the father`s deadly behavior.
Back with Sherra, Jena, and Danny, and joining us is Jeff Zinsmeister, executive VP, Smart Approaches to Marijuana. He opposes legalization of
cannabis. Jeff, help us with this. Is it a reasonable case that edible cannabis triggered this toxic event that caused him to kill his wife?
JEFF ZINSMEISTER, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, SMART APPROACHES TO MARIJUANA: Look, I can`t comment on this particular case because, you know, as I think
somebody said earlier, all we have right now are the -- the facts, you know, the allegations and the complaints. So, you know, I`ll leave that up
to the attorneys and -- and judge and jury of that particular case.
What I do think we can take away from this lawsuit are three larger observations about the marijuana industry in general. I mean, first of all,
there is an amounting body of evidence showing some sort of link between marijuana use, particularly heavy use and mental illnesses like psychosis
and schizophrenia.
Of course, not everybody that uses marijuana will develop those conditions, and not everybody that uses marijuana heavily will. Just like not
everybody, the majority of smokers don`t develop lung cancer, but there is a mounting body of scientific evidence that tells us, look, there is a
connection there. We don`t fully understand if it`s a connection.
The second thing is that these edible products, the edible product that was involved in this particular case. I mean, these things are -- are night and
day from the -- the weed of the `60s and `70s.
You`re talking about a product that is 20, 30 times more potent, that`s made with marijuana concentrates. I mean, I googled the product at issue
here. You can still find it very easily on the internet.
You know, it`s a product that has 10 doses -- that has 10 doses in something that weighs 1/3 ounce. I mean, that`s three french fries, four
french fries worth of a product with something in that potent.
So, what you`re seeing is a totally different product that an industry is trying to market to folks. And that leads us to the third point, really, is
that, look, this industry and these edibles are over 50 percent of the market in Colorado. That market share is growing.
This is an industry that has fought tooth and nail against any type of attempt to regulate it. They fought against restrictions on kid-friendly
ads. They pushed back against regulations on pesticides. Now they have an initiative in California that folks in California would allow the industry
to put ads for edibles and smoke marijuana on prime time television.
I mean, this is, you know, at the end of the day, this is -- we outlawed cigarette ads on TV in the 70`s. I mean, that`s 45 years ago, and that is a
policy that is sort of regressive in the most literal sense of the word.
So, you know, at the end of the day, I think what this shows us is, you know, in terms of the legalization movement as it`s currently being played
out at the ballot box, it`s being motivated by money. I mean, it`s just about money, and it`s at the expense of public health and safety. That`s
really -- our organization`s concern is that.
[19:40:00] PINSKY: Danny, is a case like this going to shine a light on the issues that we are discussing here?
CEVALLOS: A case like this is definitely going to bring medical experts from both sides head-to-head. They are going to battle and each is going to
try and prove on one side marijuana is dangerous. And on the other side, that it`s not dangerous at all.
You better believe as with many battles of the experts, they are going to reach diametrically opposed conclusions about the relative dangers of
marijuana. But, you know, I understand the concerns about dosage when it comes to edible products because it`s difficult to know how much is in each
one.
But then you have to take it to its conclusion. If somebody does happen to overdose on marijuana, what is the reasonably foreseeable universe of risks
that can result because of that overdose or that excess taking which is pretty easy to do when it`s formulated like a candy bar. But, you know, you
have to look it the endgame. What is the risk? What is the danger ultimately?
PINSKY: It`s interesting. One of the dirty little secrets that my friends in Colorado tell me about is that the veterinary emergency room visits have
gone off the chain because of dogs consuming the edibles that they got their hands on and ended up with bad reactions.
But Sherra, what is so wrong with just putting warnings or how to use kinds of labeling on a product that could potentially have adverse reactions?
It`s just no matter -- when you go to the grocery store, where do you go?
ELIZABETH: Yeah, that`s exactly the point. That`s exactly the point. That`s what plaintiffs are saying. If you buy a tube of toothpaste, you buy
chewing gum, if you buy lotion, it has an ingredients list and tells you what the dangers are. That`s what the plaintiffs are asking for here.
They`re saying, listen, you`re putting this product out this in the market place, put a label on it. Explain to us what it does so that I can prepare
myself.
PINSKY: We have a statement from an attorney representing the Kirk children. It says, in part, edibles themselves are not the evil, it`s the
failure to tell the consumer how to safely use edibles, that is the evil. Jeff, is that the totally of the evil and these are the results of this
growing so fast that the legislators can`t even keep up?
ZINSMEISTER: I think it goes a little bit beyond that. It`s the fact that as you created industry, you created a multi-million dollar lobby that
opposes any attempt to rein in -- to rein in these products and anything that impacts their bottom line basically.
There have been a number of attempts to -- to legislate controls on these things. Latest was an attempt to cap the potency of the products. You know,
they -- they can bring so much money to the table and so much influence at the state house.
I mean, it`s like tobacco. It`s just very, very hard to get and to move anything through. These guys are contributing to political campaigns.
PINKSY: Big cannabis and big tobacco become the same kind of industry. Jena, are you seeing toxic reactions?
KRAVITZ: Yes. I work in a very large hospital. More and more we are seeing -- I would say people anywhere ranging from teenage to mid 50s, a large
increase in people who come in with anoxic brain injures and psychotic episodes that are substance-induced.
PINSKY: Cannabis. Cannabis-induced.
KRAVITZ: A lot of them from the edibles, that`s right, because people don`t know.
PINSKY: Listen very careful. Please be very careful with these things. All right. Panel, thank you very much.
Next, Zika, sewage in the water, bacteria. These are -- The Rio Olympics are potentially one of the biggest health hazards. Let`s talk about it
after this.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re looking at an image from just last month. Body parts on Copacabana beach. In its bid, Brazil promised to clean up at least
80 percent of the sewage that was flowing into the city`s notoriously dirty water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those promises of clean water, not in Guanabara bay where sailors will be competing for gold and where trash and sewage
continues to litter the surface.
Jut last month, Brazilian scientists detected the superbug CRE in these waters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Some Olympic athletes have declined to go to Rio due to fears about Zika virus, but Olympians and fans who make the trip should be aware of
much more dangerous health hazards. Back with my guests, all whom have an Olympic connection.
Sherra Elizabeth, she is going to Rio to support a friend who is competing there. Bobby Chacon, his wife is working in Rio now for the games. Thank
you, jut got back, if I remember, right? And joining me, I have Dr. Celine Gounder, infectious disease and public health specialist.
She lived in Rio. Her husband is there on assignment for "Sports Illustrated." Now, very highly resistant so-called superbugs have been
found in five of Rio`s most popular beaches, including two where Olympians will be competing.
I heard Dr. Gupta (ph) in that piece saying that CRE is a group of drug- resistant bacteria. CRE stands for carbapenem-resistant Enterobacteriaceae which is just a fancy web saying common bugs that don`t respond to
antibiotics anymore.
And scientists say these beaches became contaminated when untreated waste was dumped into the water. Among these other things, this bacteria causes
UTIs, blood stream infections, wound infections, pneumonia. It`s not good.
Dr. Gounder, I want to go out to you. Am I right here in assessing that people should be more concerned about the waterborne illnesses than the
Zika virus?
CELINE GOUNDER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE AND PUBLIC HEALTH SPECIALIST: : Drew, absolutely. The risk of the Zika virus at this point is really low. We are
in the middle of the winter in Brazil, and it` funny, my husband, we were speaking yesterday soon after he got there.
He said -- I have -- you know, there`s no -- there`s no mosquitoes. It`s really not an issue at this time of year. On the other hand, we do have
athletes who are going to be swimming in the water, rowing in the water and so on and they will certainly have exposure to a contaminated water.
Most of the sewage in Rio still goes into the water. It`s untreated sewage. They`re all sewage. There still a lot of trash and other wastes, heavy
metals, oil spills and so on. The water is really a problem in Rio.
PINSKY: We talk about these bacteria CRE. People haven`t really heard about that, but maybe they`ve heard of Hepatitis A. Now, you get vaccinated
against that, and I do hope you will get vaccinated if you go down there.
But there are many other viral-borne illnesses in this water as well and some are being -- some are being advised not to put their head under water
and as little of two teaspoons of this water in your mouth ingested can result in one day`s infections. Bobby, you just got back from Rio. Were you
worried about this down there? Did you see people getting sick?
BOBBY CHACON, SPECIAL AGENT, FBI (RET): Well, I didn`t see people getting sick personally but I know people who had gotten sick. The problem is
pretty much contained in Guanabara bay. Oddly enough, Copacabana, Ipanema, the big beaches that face the ocean aren`t affected by this. And
unfortunately, that`s where the body washed up.
PINSKY: Hold on. Dr. Gounder, shouldn`t people be worried about the tap water as well if this is what`s going on in the recreational water?
GOUNDER: Well, tap water is treated, and that said, you know, we can also drink bottled water in these settings. You know, one thing I like to also
emphasize is, the real risk here is to the people who live in Rio, to the children who live near the bay, the fishermen who fish in the bay.
The worst of the contamination is actually in the northern part of the bay which is not where the Olympic events are gonna be occurring. And
unfortunately at something like the Olympics, it takes to remind us that most of the world still doesn`t have safe water, toilets, sanitation, et
cetera.
PINSKY: It`s great point.
CHACON: I lived there for two years. I haven`t drank tap water the whole time I was there.
PINSKY: There you go. Sherra, are you worried about this? Have you had vaccines?
ELIZABETH: I`ve not had vaccines, Dr. Drew, but I`m going to now. Listen. The athletes who are competing are excited and the people like me who are
going to support them are excited. Obviously, we`re gonna take all the precautions that we can. But the privilege and honor to represent your
country in this great event will overcome all of these other issues.
PINSKY: I have a great tweet from one of the, I think, kayakers. I`ve got it right now, it`s an American rower, Megan Kalmoe, I hope I pronounced
your name correctly, thinks we should all stop talking about the risks for disease in Rio and let them have their day in the sun. She put on her blog
post, quote, I will row through "S" for you, America. There it is.
So, I think, she is echoing what you`re saying, Sherra. We`ll take a break. We`ll be back after this.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Are the fears about Zika virus at the Olympics excessive? Should we be worry more about waterborne illnesses? I`m back with Sherra, Bobby, and
Dr. Celine Gounder.
Dr. Gounder, let`s talk about Zika though for a minute. You say there are no mosquitoes out there, yet still the recommendations are if you`re a
pregnant woman, not so good.
GOUNDER: I think you have to look at where we have active Zika transmission right now, and we had 14 cases at least reported in Florida near Miami,
northern part of Miami.
So if you`re a pregnant woman, you absolutely should be concerned about where Zika is being transmitted. The problem is with the Olympics is that,
that`s not where the hot bed of transmission is. That was earlier in the year during their summer.
And so really if you`re going to be talking about travel bans or travel restriction, you have the Brits now who are suggesting that pregnant women
who are British should not come to Florida.
PINSKY: Well, that makes -- that means it seems real actually. I just while we were sitting got an e-mail from CDC and guidelines for travel and
testing of pregnant women, and they are recommending they don`t go south and they`re recommending that all women talk to all pregnant women discuss
with their health care provider, I mean, their obstetrician, whether or not they should be tested for Zika.
So it is a significant issue. It`s not trivial issue. And it`s a epidemiological issue. But the virus itself for the average person, let`s
say, Bobby gets Zika, he probably won`t even know it, right?
CHACON: Well, actually...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Let`s get to Dr. Gounder first, then Bobby, you tell us your story. Dr. Gounder, go ahead.
GOUNDER: No problem. You know, so for the average person, most people won`t even have symptoms. So it`s really for the vast majority of people not a
harmful infection. It`s really -- women who are pregnant, trying to get pregnant, their partners who would be getting them pregnant, and very
rarely somebody who has weak immune system, the elderly, might have some complications. For the vast majority of people, it`s a benign illness.
PINSKY: However, these waterborne illnesses we`ve been telling you about are not benign at all. They are very, very serious. Bobby, you may tell me
the story.
CHACON: A guy who walk my dogs with down in Rio, one of my neighbors, I hadn`t seen him for a couple of weeks, and when I finally ran back into
him, he said, yeah, he had gotten Zika, and he was -- he was systematic. But it was a mild flu-like symptoms for about a week and then it was gone.
PINSKY: That`s about as bad as it gets for an otherwise healthy person. There is an association with Guillain-Barre. So again, I`m not trying to
trivialize it as a completely inconsequential infection. What I`m trying to do is put it in context for what you ought to be worrying about, so people
like Sherra who are going down there are not worrying about the -- by the way, there are many other mosquito-borne illnesses you should worry about
as well. Should this be that time of year?
ELIZABETH: I think it`s good your focus had gone to that point, Dr. Drew, because I have all my sprays and my mosquito bands but I haven`t gotten my
vaccine.
PINSKY: Get your vaccines. And some of the athletes are refusing to go out of fear of Zika. And interestingly, the list of athletes that are refusing
to go there are all male. They`re all men. They`re the ones not going to Rio because they say, they are worried about Zika, so maybe they`re worried
about other stuff and maybe Zika was just an excuse, but I`m calling them out, I`m saying come on now, come on now.
Thank you, panel. Thank you, Dr. Gouner, for joining us here today. I appreciate it. Bobby, Sherra, we appreciated it well. Good job. We thank
you all for watching. Please do tell a friend. We are here 4 o`clock pacific, 7 o`clock eastern time. And our friend, Nancy Grace, follows us
and is up next.
[20:00:00]
END
