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Dr. Drew
Ozzy Osbourne Confesses to Four-Year Fling; Surveillance Tape Captures Violent Fight Between a Mother and her Child; Police Officer Admits to Killing his Wife.
Aired August 04, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The forensic are allowed to their to speak and I think that`s a really good thing.
DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: One of Hollywood`s most enduring marriages is rocked to its core as Ozzy Osbourne confesses to a four-year
fling, he also suggest he may be a sex addict. His wife, Sharon Osbourne addressed the scandal on CBS "The Talk." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARON OSBOURNE, OZZY OSBOURNE`S WIFE: He`s been going outpatient for sex addiction for the last three months. After the tour, he goes into in-
patient for three months, and he`s working at it. It`s hard because it affects the whole family, and it`s quite embarrassing to talk about.
Somehow drugs and drink is more acceptable, I think, but when it`s somebody that has a sex addiction, it`s embarrassing. And to happen at this far in
the relationship and it`s been going on at least six years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Areva Martin, attorney, Anahita Sedaghatfar, criminal defense attorney of Council to the Cochran Firm and Spirit,
psychotherapist. Anahita, what do you make of what Sharon said today on "The Talk."
ANAHITA SEDAGHTFAR, ATTORNEY: Dr. Drew, I don`t think there`s any such thing as a sex addiction. I think that`s just a way to sort of excuse bad
behavior and to save face in front of the public like we`ve seen many other men do. Many other celebrities that got caught having affairs come out and
say, "I have a sex addiction. I`m going to go to therapy for it." I mean, I think you need to call it what it is.
This is cheating. This is a married man who went around town and apparently had affairs with multiple women and I think what`s even more embarrassing
than the affair is the fact they are trying to sort of cover it up with this sex addiction phrase, just call it what it is.
PINSKY: I`m -- you`re a friend of mine and I`m struggling with playing -- doing to you what attorneys do to me, which is, counselor...
SEDAGHTFAR: Let me do it.
PINSKY: ...where did you have your training that allows you to make an assessment about something like sex addiction? How many years of experience
have you had with this?
SEDAGHTFAR: I have not been trained in sex addiction but I think I`m old enough to know how men are and even women. If you cheat, let`s call it
cheating. I mean, how is this an addiction than any bad behavior Dr. Drew, should be an addiction.
PINSKY: Well, you said there`s no such thing -- you said there was no such thing as sex addiction.
SEDAGHTFAR: I don`t believe that there is.
PINKSY: Okay. Let`s Spirit and I get into it a little bit. Spirit, to be fair, she has a point that there is actually no formal definition in the
DSM-5, yet we all both know that there are constructs around sex addiction that can be very useful clinically.
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Very much so, Dr. Drew, and you know, if you`ve never sat in a room with individuals who are struggling with this type of
addiction, with love addiction, if you never sat in an SLA meeting, you cannot discuss this.
PINSKY: Yeah.
SPIRIT: You just can`t. And so for an attorney to say this doesn`t exist, I`m sorry Anahita, you know I love you, but from a mental health
perspective, it absolutely does. It is absolutely real and it rocks family to the core.
PINSKY: It is Anahita, we`ll tell you. It`s even as a clinician when I first started working in the field, it`s striking when people open that
door and really let you know what they`re up to. It`s surprising.
SEDAGHTFAR: How is a distinction made then between someone who enjoys having sex and then cheats on their spouse versus someone who has an
addiction?
SPIRIT: Oh, I can tell you.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
SPIRIT: Because, see, the person that has an addiction, they`re not getting the pleasure out of this like someone who is involved in an affair. There
is a cycle to this that is plagued by guilt, by shame. It is a high like any other addiction and a compulsion. It`s not something they want to do.
PINSKY: Yeah, they are miserable, they want to stop -- loss of control and attempts at stopping are a key piece to this. Now, according to a rep from
Ozzy Osbourne, he entered what is being called intense therapy for sex addiction. You heard Sharon say that he`s going into an in-patient program.
He`s been having also a four-year relationship with his former hair colorist, Michelle Pew. Now, you know, that Spirit for me is more -- that`s
a different piece of this. That`s not sex addiction.
SPIRIT: Yeah. Now, that`s kind of what Anahita is talking about. That`s the affair, the cheating piece probably.
PINSKY: OK, fair enough.
SPIRIT: But there is some addictive properties around that.
PINSKY: Let me get via Skype, TMZ reporter Dax Holt. Dax, there are other layers to the story, right. Ozzy`s formere mistress is suing Kelly?
DAX HOLT, TMZ REPORTER: This was crazy but yes, she filed a lawsuit. Basically Michelle Pew filed this lawsuit against Kelly saying she was
slut-shamed then she was bullied. She was harassed by Kelly. A lot of that done on Twitter, and then in this lawsuit, she actually breaks down their
relationship saying that they met back in 2011, Ozzy started getting his hair done by her. It was professional for a year. And then after that, he
hit on her.
It became a sexual relationship there for the last three years until May of this year when it became exposed. Once it was exposed, Kelly hit Twitter
and, you know, she has over 4 million followers, and just started slamming Michelle. And I know that you got some of the tweets if you want to read
those out?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes Dax, thanks. I`ll read them for you. This is from Kelly, "Anyone looking for cheap, chunky low lights, a blow out, and a b-job call
dot, dot, dot," and then Michelle`s personal cell phone number. Now, when one of Kelly`s follower tweeted that Ozzy was also responsible for the
affair, Kelly then tweeted back, "My father is almost 70, ever heard of elder abuse?"
Areva, I thought that was -- no, I think that`s a really interesting twist on this. You know, you`re manipulating a man probably for financial
benefit. He`s an older man with -- he`s had a lot of drug and alcohol issues. He may have impulse control problems, I mean, that`s a legitimate
thing.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: I think it could be Dr. Drew but there`s no evidence here that Michelle Pew has manipulated Ozzy Osbourne. I think what
happened in this case is you have a daughter, whose parents are going through a very difficult time because there`s infidelity, and now we know
there`s sex addiction, and she`s striking out against the woman.
When really Michelle Pew, and I`m not going to stand up for her, she chose to have a relationship with a married man, that`s her business, no judgment
there, but I don`t think Kelly`s tweets, exposing her personal information, making those maligning statements against her in social media, all those
things were inappropriate, and I`m not surprised that Michelle struck back with this defamation lawsuit.
PINSKY: Anahita, you feel differently?
SEDAGHTFAR: I feel totally differently because there is a huge distinction between defamatory statements and statements of opinion, and in this
country, you are allowed to express your opinion about somebody else.
PINSKY: Well, which one of those -- which one is which? I`m lost.
SEDAGHTFAR: This is what Kelly is doing and I`ll tell you why this is not going to be a valid case. It`s probably going to get tossed out of court
because even if the woman can prove these were defamatory statements, she needs to prove damages to move (ph) her case. What are the damages? She
admitted...
PINSKY: Well Dax, let`s hear -- well, Dax -- I guess my question, Anahita, but I want to know from Dax how much is she suing for?
HOLT: Well, that`s unspecified as of right now. I mean, you got to realize though, she said she had loss of business in this. She`s a celebrity hair
stylist. A lot of celebs go to her and so, a lot people probably dropped off once this news broke so she`s going, "I lost clients. I lost business,
I want that money back."
SEDAGHTFAR: She damaged her own reputation, though.
HOLT: So, it could be thousands and thousands of dollars.
SEDAGHTFAR: I would say she damaged her own reputation when she came out and announced that she had an affair with a married man. I`m sorry. It`s a
causational (ph) argument that because Kelly tweeted the tweets, she somehow has lost business or her reputation has been damaged. It`s too
tenuous.
HOLT: She also tweeted out her phone number to 4 million people. That`s got to affect you a little bit, right?
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: You`re wrong Anahita about the law. I think she has a viable lawsuit. You do have a first amendment right. You can state your opinions.
You can even make hateful statements, but if you defame someone, if you cause someone`s reputation to be maligned, if they can make a case about
damages.
And in this case, she`s a celebrity stylist, and, clearly, her reputation is being tarnished not because she had an affair with someone, but because
she`s been called, basically, a slut, because she`s been maligned by the tweets.
SEDAGHTFAR: She did that herself. That`s my point.
MARTIN: She didn`t make those tweets. She did not.
PINSKY: Guys, we got to leave it -- we got to leave it, but before we go, Spirit, don`t you get (ph) something on the elder abuse thing there? I
mean, listen, he had enough drugs to do damage to his frontal lobe, he`s an older man, he`s susceptible, no, you don`t think so? You don`t like that?
SPIRIT: No, I wouldn`t go for the elder abuse. Now, if we`re talking about substance face dementia or something like that, Dr. Drew, perhaps but...
PINSKY: There are impulse control problems or, you know, just the fact that he`s vulnerable and, I don`t know.
SPIRIT: Show me what she got out of the deal that she didn`t know that she was getting and that he couldn`t prove that he wanted to do.
PINSKY: All right, OK. Next up, a former mistress is here. We`ll hear whose side she is on, and later, a man calls 911 and says calmly he shot his
wife, claiming he was, "not all right," and that is just the beginning. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) with the T-Mobile Daily Show at this hour. A backhoe hit a gas line in L.S. Shooting flames into the air and forcing
neighbors to temporarily evacuate their homes. The fire completely destroyed the backhoe. Fortunately, the driver was not hurt. Firefighters
put out the flames after the gas was cut off. Apparently, a crew from the water company hit the gas line during construction.
And semi dangled off a freeway ramp in Boca Raton, Florida today. The truck was hauling cabinets on Interstate 95. It`s not clear what caused the
accident. A HAZMAT team was called in because crews (ph) were worried the truck`s fuel might leak onto the train tracks below. Thankfully, there are
no reports of any injuries.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OZZY OSBOURNE, SINGER: Boozing, prescription drugs and I started drinking alcohol and prescription drugs and Sharon just said, "I`m out of t. I can`t
deal with this anymore." It was miserable, lonely. Yet again I`d wake up in the morning look in that mirror and go, "You`ve done it again. You may have
done it permanently this time." The last thing I want to do is break my wife`s heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And that was an interview from 2014, Ozzy Osbourne and Sharon Osbourne. She says his relapse at that time nearly caused a divorce.
Tonight, it is sex addiction and a four-year, I guess, affair with a former hair colorist that caused the couple`s recent separation. Back with Areva,
Anahita, Spirit and Dax.
And Dax, you know, this marriage, what is it, 33 years I think, is that correct? And she has hung in through a ton. I mean, God bless her. You
know, even the way she told the story about the sex addiction, people are being critical of her when she came out on "The Talk" today, I guess
recently, but I thought she was magnificent. I mean it`s a very shaming, embarrassing thing to talk about.
HOLT: Sharon Osbourne is a saint. Let`s not get that wrong. She has been there through thick and thin. She supported him. She has been there as a
manager of Black Sabbath for years and years and years, taking care of him financially as well, and, you know, in this lawsuit that Michelle`s put out
there she is saying that her and Ozzy did not break up because of infidelity.
She said that they broke up because of arguments involving financial issues and control, so Michelle was really kind of airing out a lot of things, and
she also says that ozzy did not financially support Michelle, so a lot of interesting things coming out in this lawsuit alone. You know, we did reach
out to Kelly to see her side of the story, and we have not heard anything back from her.
PINSKY: Yeah, I feel terrible for Kelly. Spirit, the whole family is rocked by al of this, no doubt, but I saw you kind of making a face when I was
talking to Dax there. Something wrong with what I said?
SPIRIT: Well, no. You know, I agree on one part. You know, we look and go, wow, she is a saint. God bless her because she has been dragged through the
mud over and over again. But you know, the other part of this, Dr. Drew, is that I can`t help but wonder if there`s some co-dependency that allowed her
to stay.
PINSKY: Well, of course -- of course
SPIRIT: And so we`re not talking about that piece of this either and it`s important.
PINSKY: Well, but, again, I always -- she is sort of -- I don`t want to call it victim --
SPIRIT: She doesn`t get to get off...
PINSKY: No, she participated.
SPIRIT: She knows she`s not the victim.
PINSKY: She`s a participant. I understand that.
SPIRIT: Exactly. She participates and she`s chosen to stay.
PINSKY: I understand. But I don`t believe that she has been outside of the therapeutic process, let`s put it that way. She has chosen to stay with all
this, but I think she has participated and there`s no way they would have made it this far.
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: The former mistress told "People Magazine" that Ozzy was the great love of her life and made her feel "like the most beautiful and worshipped
woman in the world." Now, Ozzy`s reps say, she, "took their sexual relationship out of context." Dax, what do they mean by that? In other
words, he wasn`t that into her?
HOLT: I`m taking it as they`re saying nope, it was just for sex and there was nothing more than that, that they didn`t have this amazing relationship
that she had in her mind, but that`s just the way I`m reading into it. I don`t know if that`s the way they meant it to come out, but that`s how I
was taking it.
PINSKY: Joining me, I`ve got Sarah Symonds. She is a former mistress. She`s author of "Having an Affair, A Handbook for the Other Woman." Sara, I love
your take on the -- what Ozzy was saying about his sex addiction.
SARAH SYMONDS: Dr. Drew, thanks for having me on. This is a whole show. We need a whole hour on this. I got to say I`ve listened to everything you
guys have said, loved it, but I feel you`re like vultures flying in on the story. It could happen to anyone. I actually feel so incredibly sorry for
Ozzy Osbourne and men like him.
He`s not a sex addict. He`s just a very unhappily married man. And there would be many men listening to the show who are in Ozzy Osbourne`s shoes so
to speak. And imagine being married to somebody like Sharon Osbourne who is so full of herself. She goes on national TV to try to win the women`s vote,
you know, the women who stay at home eating chips, watching daytime TV, you know, the sympathy vote. Put in a few tears on.
Like you said, they`ve been married 33 years. She didn`t stay there if it didn`t suit her. And now she`s sending him up the river. I`m sorry. I`m
sorry. I feel sorry for Ozzy.
PINSKY: Well, I`m confused by some of what you`re saying. Dax, do you have a question here?
HOLT: No. I`m just sitting here and I was thinking, well, if he`s so unhappily married, then they would have gotten divorced a long time. I
don`t think throwing he`s the victim in this whole thing that Sharon is such an awful person.
SYMONDS: Come on, it`s not a marriage in Hollywood, it`s a merger. Why did they get -- why did they get uncoupled? Hello?
HOLT: The guy clearly has some issues. And we all know that Ozzy Osbourne has issues, but to say that he is the victim of a cruel (ph) marriage and
give her that she is the awful person...
SYMONDS: But wait, wait, wait. We haven`t heard from Sharon. Maybe Sharon has issues.
HOLT: I think that`s ridiculous.
PINSKY: But we did bring that point up, Sarah, that Sharon must have some issue that she`s chosen Ozzy and she`s hung with Ozzy, but I mean, they
both are participants in this. I understand that.
SYMONDS: Absolutely. And may will it go on forever, but we`re not hearing his side. We`re just getting the oh, my God, Ozzy`s got intensive, you
know, sexual therapy. He`s got to be put away like some kind of just a pariah, you know, and I actually think the mistress, good on her for taking
this to a lawsuit because, first of all, nobody should put your number out there for everybody to see.
And second of all, when you are a mistress, the married man will tell you things. This was not just an 11 or 10-month affair, Dr. Drew. This was
three or four years, correct?
PINSKY: Yeah.
SYMONDS: He would have been promising her things, and think about it, he would want somebody who was basic, down to earth, and who is closer to you
than your makeup artist and hair stylist? He wanted...
PINSKY: Hold on. Anahita is...
SEDAGHTFAR: There`s nothing good about this lawsuit, Dr. Drew, and I`ll tell you why. She is not going to make a sympathetic witness because she
appears to be a woman who clearly had an affair with a married man that she knew was married and now I think she`s trying to make...
SYMOND: Is that wrong?
SEDAGHTFAR: Well, let me -- can I finish? I`ll let you speak.
SYMOND: This is Dr. Drew`s show, not yours.
SEDAGHTFAR: Thank you. Thank you for that clarification.
PINSKY: Please finish, just finish.
SEDAGHTFAR: So, the things is, jurors are not going to be sympathetic because this seems like a money grab and if she`s so concerned about her
privacy, why is she giving photo shoots to "People" magazine.
SYMOND: Because it was exposed.
SEDAGHTFAR: Why is she giving interviews? So what? Things can get exposed, and you keep your mouth shut and you live your life with dignity. But this
appears to be a money grab and a Los Angeles jury is not going to be sympathetic to this woman, and I don`t think they are going to...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: One at a time, one at a time. One at a time.
SEDAGHTFAR: I`m an attorney and I practiced in Los Angeles for many years, and I can tell you --
PINSKY: One at a time. I`m going to turn everybody`s minds off. Hang on. Hang on. I can`t hear anything when everybody you talking over one another.
Spirit, you and I -- Sarah, thank you. I really appreciate your point of view, and I wanted your point of view. But Spirit, here`s what I`m taking
away from this. That there are reasons people have boundaries in the relationships. There are reasons we have commitments.
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: There are reasons that we try to keep things simple because when we do not, lots of people get hurt. Lots.
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: And it doesn`t make our lives better.
SPIRIT: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. And you know, Anahita raised an important point about being quiet. If everyone would just stay in their lane and talk
about their expertise, this would be okay, but for everyone to talk about whether there is or is not a sexual addiction, whether there`s codependency
and how people are affected, and they have no training, it`s just opinion, they need to step back so they can actually learn and so can everyone else.
PINSKY: And to be fair, we`re all just opinions, we don`t have direct knowledge of these people.
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: We`re just trying to learn from it, and you know, analyze what`s going on. Sarah, last word, make it quick.
SYMOND: Freedom of speech. A mistress is the same level as a wife. And you know what, good on any mistress that takes a man or a woman to court
because a mistress should be treated the same as a wife, and quite frankly, if Ozzy Osbourne was paying Sharon Osbourne`s bills, he should be paying
Michelle Pew`s too.
PINSKY: OK, we`re going to leave it there. Caught on tape, I`ve got an angry mother`s aggressive behavior towards her daughter. Should this woman,
who is also a teacher, keep her job? And Later, a former police officer claims he was insane when he murdered his wife legally insane, thing is, he
wasn`t. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Surveillance tape reveals a mother in a violent fight with her teenage daughter in the halls of her high school. Take a look. That mother,
Laurie McCombs, is also the physical education teacher at the school. Her daughter says the fight started when she told her mom she could not compete
in a track meet because of an injury.
Back with Areva, Anahita and Spirit. The mother was charged with third degree domestic violence. Areva, first of all, what do they mean by "third
degree" and is that abuse that should be legally prosecuted or is this just an intensive parent?
MARTIN: I think it`s absolutely abuse, Dr. Drew. Just because you`re a parent, you don`t have a free, get out of jail card. You don`t have the
right to assault your children just because you are the parent. And if anything, you are held to a higher standard as a parent to not inflict any
harm or danger.
As parents, your job is to protect your child, not to do anything that would harm them and using that level of force, I don`t care if it was about
a track meet, or about grades, or anything, there is a way to discipline a child and using that level of force is not the right way. I`m glad that was
caught on video. I`m glad this mother`s being prosecuted. It sends a message to other parents, protect, not harm your children.
PINSKY: And Anahita, third degree, is that just some technical terminology? What do they mean by that?
SEDAGHTFAR: That`s what they call it in the state, it`s a lower level assault, and you know, if it was just for that little piece of video, I
wouldn`t be sure that this was actually a crime, but when you look at her past, she`s had two prior incidents of physical altercations with students
in that school.
PINSKY: Well, I want to get more into that. I want to get into that. Hold on a second. On the phone, I`ve got Victoria Taft, she`s an investigative
reporter. Victoria, Anahita brought up the issue of this teacher having had previous altercations with other student students. Tell us about that.
VICTORIA TAFT, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, that`s right, Drew. What happened was in 2016, this year, another case, a 14-year-old student and
the teacher, Laurie Michelle McCombs, and what happened was in January, she grabbed the girl in the locker room by the wrist to tell her to come along
and take P.E. class. She was slacking.
She was hanging around the locker room and not getting dressed down quickly enough, and that was also caught on videotape, and that was mitigated (ph),
and, in fact, the judge decided that in that case, there was not enough to show that she actually committed the crime in the state.
PINSKY: So this woman has a history of this sort of thing. Her name is Laurie McComb. She has been re-assigned while her case is pending, but the
superintendent says she expects her to return to her regular duties in the future. So the question for us is, do we think she should be allowed to
return to work at that school? Spirit, what do you say?
SPIRIT: Well, I say the parenting issue was different issue outside if should she be allowed. No, any time you put in your hands on a child,
especially one that`s not yours, questionable, but parents also have to learn, Dr. Drew, that when you talk about discipline, that the place to
start is, have I resolved my own personal emotions around this issue?
And if you haven`t, if you`re still feeling emotional, then it`s not the time to try to discipline your child because you`re not disciplining.
You`re punishing based upon how you feel, and that is two different things.
PINSKY: Yeah, I`ve always told parents, I mean, you must take yourself out of it. You are essentially, I mean, if you think about a consequence of
just somebody dropping an ax, your job is just simply to drop the ax, not to do it with vigor or intensity or with feeling or with anything else,
just let the ax fall. The ax will do the work. Areva?
MARTN: I just worry about this child, even being returned to this parent because if she had this level of aggression over a track meet, what happens
if something more serious comes up in the young girl`s life and she has to communicate that with the mother? So, not only do I think this mother
should be charged with a crime, and I don`t think it has a whole lot to do with her prior history.
I think we saw enough on that tape to charge her, but I also think the child protective services should be brought into this case and this young
lady should be removed from the mother`s home until she can prove herself worthy of controlling her impulses and disciplining in a way that doesn`t
cause harm or injury to her child.
PINSKY: And to be fair, Spirit, you and I know that people that are excessively aggressive with their children end up with children with
behavior problems, not children that behave.
SPIRIT: Absolutely. There it is. So, when Areva said, you know, the history doesn`t matter, Areva what I`d be actually willing to bet here is that the
history does, and if we go backwards, it`s not what will happen, but it`s what already has happened.
PINSKY: Yes.
MARTIN: Well, I`m talking about the history for the purposes of whether we saw a crime. The history matters in terms of, yes, she`s not safe in the
home, but we witnessed a crime on that video.
SEDAGHTFAR: She shouldn`t be a teacher. I agree that she should be removed from being a teacher.
PINSKY: OK, not even a teacher.
SEDAGHTFAR: Not even a teacher because again, this isn`t the first time. She was caught on tape one other time before and she still did it in
public. So what do you think...
PINSKY: Listen, I hate to -- listen, Anahita, shame on you.
SEDAGHTFAR: Shame on me?
PINSKY: Because I hate to see when somebody -- she has a history of also being a high performing -- doing well as a teacher, why can`t we re-educate
her? Watch her? Discipline her, be careful with her. That`s an asset that might be useful.
SEDAGHTFAR: I would say that -- I would say that. I would suggest that if this was the first time, but when we see that this is a pattern, it`s clear
that she has some anger management issues, probably has a lot of other issues, and I wouldn`t want my children in her classroom. If this was a
one-time incident, OK, suspend her, give her counselling, let her rehabilitate herself.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHTFAR: And then put her back if she is able to, you know, rehabilitate herself. But this woman is doing this knowing there are
cameras there. You can only imagine what she does in her own home.
PINSKY: And we got that ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a huge liability for the school district.
PINSKY: That`s true. That`s true.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s right.
PINSKY: We got some viewer comments.
SEDAGHATFAR: Liability for sure.
PINSKY: Yeah. Craig says, this is what she does to her daughter in the public? This is Anahita`s point. Would hate to see how she is treated at
home.
SEDAGHATFAR: OK.
PINSKY: And then Georgia writes, you don`t understand how teenage girls push buttons to anger their moms. This is a case of disobedience and
discipline.
Yes, but as we pointed out. The problem is, when you`re aggressive with children, they act out. They get worse. They get better for a few minutes
or even a few weeks, but then they get worse. They go above the baseline. Otherwise, why would somebody like Spirit and I not suggest you behave like
this? If it is worse, then this what makes good parenting. We`re just advocating what works, right, Spirit?
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: The works.
PINSKY: There you go.
SPIRIT: What works right.
PINSKY: Next stop, I have some revealing details about mom and daughter and the issue between them that may explain some stuff here.
And later, what does "not guilty by reason of insanity" really mean? A husband who admits to killing his wife. Find out. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I`m back with Areva, Anahita, and Spirit. And joining me on the phone, I have Brett Bloomston, attorney for Lori McCombs, the mother in
this case. Brett, tell us more -- first of all, thank you for being here.
BRETT BLOOMSTON, LORI MCCOMBS` ATTORNEY: My pleasure.
PINSKY: Now, tell us more about the struggles this mom had with her daughter.
BLOOMSTON: This is a child who has exhibited violent behavior, disruptive behavior in the family. She has been disrespectful, and Lori and her
husband, Mike, are disciplinarians.
They`ve raised three children. The oldest is going to be a commissioned officer when he graduates from the University with an ROTC. The youngest is
a well-adjusted, athletic and smart child, and we have a daughter coming to age at age 15, who has found a way to basically divorce her parents and get
away from a healthy source of discipline for a young child with emotional and behavioral problems.
PINSKY: Well, if she has emotional and behavioral problems, what are they? Have they been diagnosed?
BLOOMSTON: Well, they have. And frankly, many of the things are being litigated in a family court, which is a very privately and closely ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: OK. Sure about that.
BLOOMSTON: ... confidential information.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOMSTON: It`s truly inappropriate, but what this video shows in a snapshot is simply the culmination of something that had been building up.
And it`s not, as the young lady says, simply that there was a dispute over whether she would practice at the track meet.
PINSKY: OK.
BLOOMSTON: She was at the point of -- a boiling point of disrespect and, frankly, if Lori is guilty of abuse for grabbing her daughter by the
backpack straps and putting her in her office, then my mother would be in the penitentiary.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Anahita. Go ahead.
SEDAGHATFAR: I just want to know what -- how do you explain the other physical altercations that she had with other students? If you`re saying
that this is jus a problem with the child, how do you explain the fact that she did get into physical disputes with lots of (ph) kids?
BLOOMSTON: That`s a great question. And it will shed some light on this entire situation.
The 14-year-old complainant in the first instance is friends with this young lady, with Lori`s daughter. This has been something that these two
have cooked up to frame Lori to get her into trouble. The judge in that prior incident did not even entertain the case, he dismissed the case upon
viewing the evidence. It was determined that it was absolutely fabricated such as this young lady`s story about her mother and what led to this
incident.
PINSKY: Areva?
BLOOMSTON: If you look at this video ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hold on. Areva, Areva?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: I understand Brett`s job, and his job is to defend his client, and I respect him for doing so. But when you talk about a child
having emotional and behavioral problems, all the more reason this level of discipline is kind of displaced -- absolutely wrong, it is a failed
approach.
I work with special needs kids all the time. I represent those kids, and I see how they are treated. If this girl has emotional and behavioral
problems, get her some intervention, get her some behavior management, get her some behavior modification.
You don`t pull her, you don`t use that level of aggression and say that somehow it`s a boiling point and the mother is justified because the
daughter`s behaviors provoked the mother. The mother is the adult ...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOMSTON: With all due ...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: She is a professional ...
BLOOMSTON: ... with all due respect ...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Get the help the daughter needs.
BLOOMSTON: With all due respect ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: One at a time.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOMSTON: The mom is sorry. The mom is sorry, timeout techniques do not work in every situation. In Alabama, there`s an absolute defense to
corporal punishment. That means, you can spank your child to maintain discipline, and that is exactly what is happening here, and it is not
physical. She is not harmed. There are no marks. No bruises. This child is just fine. And if the video was allowed to continue on this reel, you`ll
see the child walk out of the office, plug her cell phone in the wall and have a sip of water. This child is ...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Brett, we wouldn`t be having this conversation on national T.V. if this was all as innocuous as you just described it. Apparently, it`s not so
innocuous. Police didn`t think it was, a district attorney didn`t think it was, and the school district didn`t.
So your client ...
BLOOMSTON: Now, the school -- the school district has cleared, Lori. The state department of education has cleared Lori of any wrongdoing, and I`d
invite you to come down and participate, or at least sit in on the trial and watch this ridiculous case get thrown out.
PINSKY: Brett, Brett, tell us about Lori`s previous history as a teacher? My understanding is she`s sort of a decorated teacher, is that true?
BLOOMSTON: Well, Lori -- Lori`s mother is a retired schoolteacher. Her father is a decorated Green Beret. She has been in education for 20 years.
She has been in education for 20 years. She has won Teacher of the Year Awards, Teacher of the Quarter Awards.
She has been coach of six national -- or excuse me, State Championship Track and Field teams. She`s worked for several fine school jurisdictions
and has never had any problems with discipline of a child ...
PINSKY: OK. Hold on.
BLOOMSTON: ... with any physical evidence.
PINSKY: Hold on..
BLOOMSTON: She is a -- a stellar person.
PINSKY: OK. Spirit, let`s settle this. The legal minds are arguing this out. Let`s talk about this clinically. It sounds like they have gotten a
child with some significant issues, and they really need help managing from a mental health standpoint.
SPIRIT: Well, you know, and I`m just sitting here and I`m sorry because I`m not an attorney, Dr. Drew, but I`m thinking about listening to Brett.
And I`m just absolutely disgusted, and I`m thinking, shame on you. You`re talking about all of these professional accolades. That is not a Parenting
of the Year Award, and she is not parent of the year regardless of what ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: ... she has earned as ...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOMSTON: Correct.
SPIRIT: ... as a professional.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOMSTON: But to be fair ...
SPIRIT: And then the other part of this, Dr. Drew ...
PINSKY: Yeah?
SPIRIT: Seriously here ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yeah.
SPIRIT: ... because the other part of this is this here, if this child really has all of the issues that he has suggested, then where have the
parents stepped in and learned other modes of ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Right.
SPIRIT: ... discipline ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: That`s my concern.
SPIRIT: ... prior to now ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: That`s right.
SPIRIT: In order -- you know, because we`re talking -- we`re pinning all of this and we`re scapegoating the child with all these behavior problems.
Where were the interventions ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Spirit?
SPIRIT: ... for the parents so that she never put her hands on her daughter in this way?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Let`s put it this way. Let`s put it this way. If you have a problem with behavioral mental health issues, you`re not needing to
discipline them. You`re needing to get them ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Exactly.
PINSKY: ... treated and managed.
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Yes. Thank you, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: And that, there are specific techniques for that, and they are ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: That`s right.
PINSKY: They -- yes, there may be some discipline within that, but stop thinking ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: ... of it as a parenting issue if, indeed ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Thank you.
PINSKY: ... this child has so many mental health and behavioral problems. It is a mental health issue, and we, our team, our people, spirit and I
need to get involved deeply with this family ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: There it is.
PINSKY: But I still want to defend the woman. I think she is over her head a little and doesn`t mean she`s not a great teacher. And I think that is a
little unfair of us to say she`s got to do a problem place with her parenting. Should the child that may have special needs, she needs our
help. That`s bottom line.
Next up, a former police officer admits killing his wife, claiming he was insane at the time, but a mental health expert says not so fast. Back after
this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What can I help you with?
JEFFREY HAWKINS, FORMER POLICE WHO SHOT AND KILLED HIS WIFE: I just shot and killed my wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you still armed with the knife ... or with the gun?
HAWKINS: It`s on the sink. I`m not a threat to anybody. I`m a former police officer. I`m not sure what happened.
She took all the money out of our bank account on my birthday on Saturday, and you guys were out here a couple times.
I don`t know, she was gone and when I came home she was here and she just wouldn`t talk to me, and she just kept saying talk to my lawyer, and I
don`t know, it just happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is Jeff Hawkins, a former police officer calmly admitting to a 911 operator that he had just murdered his wife.
His plan was to plead "not guilty by reason of insanity." Problem is, the physician or doctor who evaluated him says he`s not insane.
Back with Areva, Anahita, and Spirit. Now Anahita, he admitted to the murder and his insanity defense, gone, I think, based on ...
SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think so.
PINSKY: Well, tell me.
SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think that he`s precluded from pleading not guilty by reason of insanity. I think what happened was one of the doctors that
evaluated him came to the conclusion that he was not insane.
Now, we don`t know if that was the state`s expert, if that was a court appointed expert, but ultimately, we know that these pleas are rarely
successful. I think they succeed in less than 1 percent of cases where a defendant pleads not guilty by reason of insanity.
PINSKY: Well, hang on. I want to pull you and Areva here because -- because you`ve taught me that, both of you taught me that insanity in the
legal -- in the legal realm -- and I didn`t realize this came because of John Hinckley being able to ...
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s right.
PINSKY: ... get off and stuff, and so now the standard is very, very high, and you essentially have to be, like, out of it. You have to, like, not
know where you are, what`s going on, what day it is, and this guy seems to know precisely what`s going on.
He`s not quite sure what triggered him to his murderous rage and to his actions, but he is sure how he got there, what he did that night, what he`s
done since, everything is very reasonable.
MARTIN: Right. Yeah. I think this guy is a poster child, Dr. Drew, for why the insanity defense is not successful in most cases.
What I heard in this phone call is a man who is jealous, who is manipulative, who is controlling, and who is upset about his money being
taken out of his bank account by his wife.
I didn`t hear a person who did not understand that the gravity of what he did. In fact, he understood it exactly to the point of calling 911 to admit
that he had killed his wife.
So I don`t think the insanity defense in this case had any chance. The lawyer may continue to pursue it, but I think this guy has a very difficult
case ahead of him.
He admitted to the crime, and now the question is, you know, is there manslaughter? Is there something other than premeditation that might lessen
the time that he`s going to serve in jail? But he is going to jail.
PINSKY: Anahita, would you add anything to that?
SEDAGHATFAR: yeah. I was going to say, I think to me, this does seem more like a heat of passion manslaughter crime rather than a not guilty by
reason of ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: So what ...
SEDAGHATFAR: ... insanity.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What does that mean?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What`s the difference?
SEDAGHATFAR: It means that it was a heat of passion. This was not planned. It was not plotted. It was not ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: So that diminishes ...
SEDAGHATFAR: ... premeditated ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: That diminishes his ...
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. It`s a lesser charge and a lesser sentence. And I think that 911 tape can actually be used to help him in that regard because
he`s breaking down. He`s saying I don`t know what happened, she was not here, and then she showed up. So, I think that goes more towards the heat
of passion. I just snapped manslaughter crime rather than a first-degree murder.
PINSKY: All right. Now, Spirit, let`s talk about what "insane" means to us, clinicians. Well usually we`re talking about.
(DR. SPIRIT LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But because we`re ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: We`re so there tonight, Dr. Drew. Wow!
PINSKY: Because -- because insanity in the eyes of the law is very different than insanity for real.
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: Everything.
SPIRIT: And that`s what I was thinking.
PINSKY: Yeah.
SPIRIT: I was trying to figure out, I was, like, we don`t actually -- insane. What exactly does that mean from a clinical perspective? I`m
thinking, like, intermittent explosive disorder. I`m thinking some things that he`s ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: No.
SPIRIT: ... talking about, loss of space in chronological order here.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yeah.
SPIRIT: It`s very interesting.
PINSKY: Yeah. And they don`t mean a cognitive disconnect ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: ... where you really don`t know what`s going on. What they mean -- we typically mean for insanity legal is psychotic, where you really are
disconnected from reality or misinterpreted cues (ph). You are responding to internal stimuli so that there`s no telling what might happen as a
result of how that ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: ... and what those hallucinations are telling you to do or what you`re misinterpreting about reality. That`s usually what people call
insane, at least clinicians call insane. And for the legal experts, even that might not even meet criteria for legal ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: ... insanity.
SPIRIT: Right.
MARTIN: This has got to prove that he didn`t recognize what he was doing was right or wrong. And clearly, I think he did recognize that, Dr. Drew. I
think something else is very interesting.
He says, `you guys have been out here before,` suggesting that there`s probably been a history of domestic violence with his wife that caused him
to have to call the police or the police were somehow involved.
So, I think there`s going to be some history here that may tell us about this so-called heat of passion argument.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yeah.
MARTIN: I`m concerned about that too. This looks like this guy goes home, kills his wife. And I don`t want to see him get off just because he now has
some second thoughts about it.
PINSKY: And just a quick aside here, people are always asking me to make assessment, that additions (ph) of Mr. Trump in the court, `I don`t know
him personally,` but they casually use the term "insane," and you see how - - even if you knew him, I could pretty much you, he does not meet criteria for any kind of insanity.
It`s insane to call him `insane`, frankly.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained (ph).
PINSKY: And so -- yeah. And just the way it is. That`s just casual use of language that is not fair. We`ll be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said you just shot and killed your wife?
HAWKINS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is she at in the house? And where are you at in the house?
HAWKINS: She`s lying on the floor here and I`m in the kitchen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where did you shoot her at?
HAWKINS: I don`t know. I don`t know. It`s multiple times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Talking about that ex-cop who called 911 and admitted having shot his wife. He initially planned to plead not guilty by reason of insanity
but a doctor says he`s not insane.
So, Areva, I have an interesting question for you. Can there be insanity in the eyes of the law. Legal insanity, and premeditation?
MARTIN: Probably not. Because the whole definition of insanity is that you didn`t recognize right from wrong. So, by definition, you`re asking that
your crime be excused.
Yes, I did it, but there`s a justification in the law for me doing it. Premeditation presumes that you planned something out and you should be
held accountable for it because you knew exactly what you were doing.
This case is going to be interesting, though because as Anahita said, there may be dueling expert reports. So, there may be another examination that
reaches a different conclusion, which is what we often see in these cases.
PINSKY: Is there ever a world, you mentioned that these crimes of passion were the, say, the mental health professionals build a case that in that
moment they`re insane. Because that`s kind of what happens sometimes.
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s exactly what it is.
PINSKY: Yeah.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s exactly what it is. That is legal insanity. It means that in that moment, you snapped. You had a psychotic break and you did not
understand the difference between right from wrong. And that is why we see a lot of individuals with mental illness who have severe mental illnesses
who do commit crimes and yet they are not deemed legally insane.
PINSKY: So -- wait a minutes. So, Anahita, you and I are married, and I come home one day and I`m angry with you and oops, for a few seconds I
didn`t know what I did and I shot you not once but multiple times. You think there`s a case being made there? I start -- I blacked out. I didn`t
know. I have a history of disassociation. I was physically abused when I was a kid. That used to happen to me and now boom!
SEDAGHATFAR: God forbid that ever happens, Dr. Drew. But yes, that is the -- that is the legal definition of insanity. It is that in that moment, you
heard demons talking to you. You heard voices in your head. Somebody was telling you to shoot your wife. So, it just means that in that moment you
didn`t appreciate the consequences of your action ...
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: ... regardless of ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Areva.
MARTIN: Let me just say, you better have a long history, Dr. Drew. If you ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yeah.
MARTIN: ... if you commit that crime ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yeah.
MARTIN: ... of being -- having some other psychotic things going on in your life.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I don`t think so.
MARTIN: You`re a mental health professional. You`re not going to be able to sell that case to a jury on that one moment snap.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I`m ready (ph) because it feels like weirdly sexist to say a guy can come home and just snap in a moment. There, go ahead, Spirit.
SPIRIT: And the bottom line here, that should not absolve you from doing the time.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: yeah.
SPIRIT: You should have to get help. You still killed someone, so you should have to do the time. If he had these issues (ph) before now, He
should have been in treatment.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: And he -- he had some issues.
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: You know healthcare matters.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: He had an issue back in 1999 of allegations of excessive force that suggests there might have been some -- but that is not the kind of
issue you`re talking about though, Areva.
MARTIN: No. I`m talking about you got to have a very well-documented history of mental health issues because otherwise, you are not going to be
able to sell that one-minute snap.
And to Spirit`s point, you wouldn`t get off. You would be placed in a state psychiatric facility.
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Right.
MARTIN: You`d have to get help and they would keep evaluating you. You wouldn`t walk out the courtroom.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: You guys -- you guys know Anahita. I mean, you guys know Anahita. (Inaudible). I`m just saying.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: This is the craziness with these kinds of defense.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: No excuse, Dr. Drew.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: All right, you guys. Thank you very much. I`m obviously putting the tongue deep in my cheek and I do not think this is okay. Nancy Grace is
up next.
END
