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Dr. Drew

Milwaukee Violence over Police Shooting Examined; Baby Dies in Locked Van as 63-Year-Old Mother Runs Errands; Brendan Dassey of "Making a Murderer" Has Conviction Overturned. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired August 15, 2016 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: A 10:00 p.m. curfew will be imposed tonight for teens in Milwaukee after a violent weekend of protests. Take a

look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The weekend of violence began on Saturday with demonstrators torching several businesses, overturning cars, and throwing

rocks at police to protest the police shooting death of 23-year-old Sylville Smith.

Smith was shot during a traffic stop when police say he turned towards the officer with a gun in his hand. The officer`s body camera, capturing the

deadly encounter. Milwaukee`s mayor tried to address the festering anger about whether the shooting was justified.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without question, he had a gun in his hand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: CNN correspondent Brynn Gingras is in Milwaukee. Brynn, any signs of trouble tonight?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, so far so good, Drew. We -- you know, this time -- last night there were people beginning to congregate and

getting riled up. At this point though it does seem calm. Behind us is one of those spots that got hit over the weekend.

You can see the gas station torch behind me along with some cars although farther than that, there are police here on standby. But so far, we haven`t

really seen people start gathering at this point.

As you just heard, a curfew is in place. It`s always in place. It`s actually going to be enforced tonight for teenagers, 10 o`clock. They`ve

also shut down a park about a block from here hopefully to make sure to curb this violence over the weekend.

PINSKY: I heard national guard were standing by. Are they actually out there tonight?

GINGRAS: Well, they`re really leaving it up to Milwaukee police. They have them on standby, so if Milwaukee police want to bring them in, they have

the authority to do so.

But right now, they haven`t called for that, and at this point, there`s no signs tonight that they`ll call for that, but of course yes, as you said,

they are on standby, Drew.

PINSKY: And -- and Brynn, I don`t know if you can say much about this, but we`re hearing at the city, the city of Milwaukee has struggled with racial

tensions long before this shooting. Is that true and are people really now addressing this?

GINGRAS: Oh, that`s certainly the sense that we`re getting that this incident that happened with Sylville Smith over the weekend. It really was

just the boiling point of what people have been feeling around here with the lack of jobs, lack of education.

Even Smith`s father came forward and said, you know what, I failed my son and I may have led him to the direction that he was living at this point

before his death.

So there`s certainly a lot of frustration here and a lot of tension. Again, this might have just been the boiling point, Drew.

PINSKY: Thank you, Brynn. Thank you. Also joining me Areva Martin, attorney, Spirit, psychotherapist, host of my current situation Atlanta

premiering August 20th on Centric, John Cardillo, former NYPD officer, host -- radio host, and Tariq Nasheed, film maker, Hidden Colors 4 available on

Amazon.

Now, Sylville Smith was pulled over and then took off running. Police say images from the officer`s body cam show for sure that he was carrying a gun

and he turned and threatened them. John, my question, though, is was police protocol appropriately followed?

JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYP OFFICER, RADIO HOST: 100 percent. And it`s important to note, Dr. Drew, we lost a 31-year-old police officer in

Georgia last night, killed -- shot and killed on a routine car stop.

Same situation. He didn`t get the jump on the bad guy. This was a fleeing suspect with a visible firearm. Important to note, a young African-American

police officer, no racial component here.

Cop was just in fear of his life from a guy with a violent criminal history. Guy turned toward the cop, cop deployed deadly physical force in a

legal and justified matter. 100 percent textbook.

PINSKY: Areva, is that correct?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think we know that at this point, Dr. Drew. What we are hearing is that there was a weapon that Mr. Smith had on

him. We`re waiting to see the body cam or dash cam or some kind of video.

The mayor himself says he wants to treat this case with the utmost of transparency and he wants the public to have this information. And I think

that`s all the public is asking for is be transparent.

With all of these shootings, that`s the question that really causes, I think, some of the disruption that we see in cities is the sense that

police are not transparent with the information that`s made available. And this is a city that has been in turmoil over police shootings way before

the shooting that occurred that we`re talking about.

PINSKY: Tariq, is transparency enough?

TARIQ NASHEED, FILM MAKER, CRITICAL OF POLICE: Well, they`re not being transparent. What happened this weekend, this was a -- a bigger picture. We

have to look at it in context.

A year ago, there was a lawsuit settled in the city of Milwaukee where they had to pay out 74 black people for being illegally strip searched. So this

place, Milwaukee, they`ve been complaining about systemic white supremacy in this city for a long time as one of the most racially segregated cities

in America.

They funnel black people into the prison systems out there disproportionately. So, this was just the icing on the cake that happened.

And we need to look at it in a bigger context.

[19:05:00] PINSKY: Okay. Tariq, let me point out. I -- I -- I get you and I think you -- you`ve always emphasized your sense that there`s infiltration

of the police. What you have called race soldiers. This is not that. You`re saying this...

NASHEED: Yes, it is, Dr. Drew. It is, Dr. Drew, because people keep trying to emphasize that the officer who allegedly shot Mr. Smith was black, but

just because you have a black overseer on a plantation, that doesn`t negate the fact that the plantation is run by white supremacist.

This is why they have sheriffs and police chiefs out here who will regurgitate a lot of white supremacy talking points and antagonize the

black society who they disenfranchise and deprived of resources and create this kind of conditions to cause a rebellion like this.

MARTIN: And can I just weigh in on that, too, Dr. Drew? I want to echo what Tariq said. It is kind of appalling to me that the emphasis keeps being on

the fact that this police officer was African-American.

The issue that African-Americans are fighting in terms of criminal justice reform doesn`t have a color to it. It`s about constitutional policing

whether you`re black, brown, green, or blue.

African-Americans deserve to be treated with respect and they deserve to have constitutional policing in their communities.

PINSKY: I -- I agree.

CARDILLO: Can I add something there, Dr. Drew?

PINSKY: Go ahead, John, please. Then I will go to Tariq. Go ahead.

CARDILLO: Okay. There was nothing unconstitutional. This is where the Black Lives Matter crew loses the argument. This was a bad guy. This was a bad

guy who was doing bad things his whole life stopped by a good guy. And I should note, his -- his prey.

He was a predator on the black community stopped by a good son of the black community. This is where Tariq and Areva should point to that police

officer and say -- aspire to be him, not Sylville Smith.

MARTIN: John, we don`t need you to tell us who are good or bad African- Americans. That`s offensive language you`re using. And incredibly demeaning.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: One at a time. This is -- where I need Spirit. Spirit, my head is spinning because I don`t feel like I can win. No matter what I try to do to

make things better, make peace. How do we even push this thing forward?

SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well because the reality is that there is no win here. I mean, John mentioned the Black Lives Matter movement. This has

nothing to do with Black Lives Matter...

PINSKY: Exactly.

SPIRIT: ... so I wouldn`t go in that direction. But What I will say here is I`m with John in terms of this was a criminal. We have to be real about the

fact that criminals come in all colors, all genders. And so when someone turns a gun on a law enforcement officer, the likelihood is that you are

going to be shot and killed. We have to deal with that.

But what we also have to talk about, Dr. Drew, is that this is simply history repeating itself. We`ve had the Watts riots, we`ve had the Rodney

King riots, we`ve had Ferguson. How many more riots do we have to have before we deal with the systemic racism and the real issues that are the

impetus of issues like this.

PINSKY: Okay.

SPIRIT: So that when someone commits a crime, we will deal with it as it should be appropriately and not use them as martyrs.

PINSKY: But,you guys, I -- I think Tariq was actually on to something that we could productively evaluate and -- and work with. Which is something

maybe was going on in Milwaukee and that something maybe needs to change.

SPIRIT: Right.

NASHEED: Absolutely. And the fact that black people are so easily criminalized. I -- I don`t like the fact that they`re just saying that this

man is a criminal.

PINSKY: I don`t know. If I turned a gun...

SPIRIT: Tariq, he pulled a gun on a cop. We have to be real about that.

NASHEED: Ma`am, do you have proof of that? Ma`am, do you have proof of that?

PINSKY: Hold on. Hold on.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Mikes off. Next up, conversation goes on. And later, how could a 6- year-old boy beat his infant sister to death? Their mother allegedly left them alone together. That is how. And we will keep this conversation going.

I will give you guys the mikes right back after the break. I just have to go. We`ll be with you in a minute.

[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CLARKE, SHERIFF OF MILWAUKEE COUNTY: Stop trying to fix the police. Fix the ghetto. I talked about those urban pathologies that have to be

addressed to shrink the size of the underclass.

We are in the growth of an underclass here in Milwaukee. We saw some of their behaviors on display last night. So, you shrink the size of the

underclass. How do you that? You reduce property. You shrink the schools. You put people back to work, meaningful work. You hold people accountable

for effective parenting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Syville Smith died Saturday when he ran from a police officer who pulled him over. Police say body cam footage proved he had a gun and the

officer allegedly justified.

Now, the family of this victim is begging people in Milwaukee not to react with violence. Back with Areva, Spirit, John, and Tariq. The city of

Milwaukee as you were just hearing -- could anyone tell me what his actual title there? I want to get that right.

CARDILLO: That`s sheriff.

PINSKY: He`s the sheriff there.

CARDILLO: Sheriff of Milwaukee county, Dr. Drew, not the city.

PINKSY: And we saw him at the RNC. Now here he is in a middle of a crisis. The city of Milwaukee health assessment found it is the most segregated

major city in the country. And Tariq, to that context, you were starting to speak when we went to break. Go ahead.

NASHEED: Absolutely. Because it`s a segregated city and it`s dominated by white supremacy, we`re told to believe that it`s some type of equality just

because they`ll put a black face like Sheriff Clarke on white supremacy, but he`s put there to hide the racism and to hide the white supremacy views

and regurgitate those views which further antagonizes people who are already being pressed out there.

PINSKY: Tariq, what about -- what about what he was saying about an underclass and poverty and these other issues that he thinks...

NASHEED: All of those issues, Dr, Drew, are caused by systematic white supremacy. They don`t happen in a vacuum. When I talk about white

supremacy, that`s the cause of all of this stuff.

They could not deprive the people of the resources. They could not mass incarcerate people. They cannot deprive people of jobs and resources. So we

have to look at it in the context of systemic white supremacy.

PINSKY: Spirit, go ahead. Spirit then John. Spirit then John. Go ahead. Spirit, go ahead.

SPIRIT: The other part of this is this still we have to know about this sheriff is that, you know, you can`t have it both ways, Dr. Drew. He can`t

be on here today being very soft.

Being very egalitarian asking for peace and all of these things when how many weeks have we seen him on television talking about Black Lives Matter,

they are thugs, they are hoodlums.

And so he`s very antagonizing any other time. But now that the city is burning, he`s calling for some sense of let`s all come together. You cannot

have it both ways. He needs to be consistent all the time.

[19:15:00] PINSKY: Well, John, my understanding is there were actually agitators out on the streets there. I think those are the kinds of people

that the sheriff really has an issue with.

CARDILLO: Yeah, it is. And Tariq has -- there`s a fundamental flaw in his argument. Sheriff Clarke is a constitutionally elected sheriff. He wasn`t

appointed by anyone. The residents of Milwaukee County have elected him over and again.

NASHEED: The white supremacists have. Yes, they have. The white supremacists have.

CARDILLO: No. Tariq, that`s ridiculous.

NASHEED: The white supremacists. They`ve elected him.

CARDILLO: Now, Dr. Drew, let`s go back on point. Yes, there were agitators. Tariq and Areva and Spirit to a degree, they`re ignoring the video upon

video of the crowds screaming. Are they white, get them, destroy their cars, beat the white people.

(CROSSTALK)

CARDILLO: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let me finish. Let me finish.

PINSKY: Finish, john.

CARDILLO: Random -- random white residents and citizens trying to get home through the war zone being attacked, their cars being dented, their lives

being threatened because they`re white. You don`t want to talk about that.

PINSKY: Okay. John, hold on. I`m going to go -- I`m going to Areva next. Areva, in my understanding, I`ve actually spoken to people that have family

-- African-American friends of mine -- family in Milwaukee. And they were scared too.

Everyone was in their houses. This was not representative of their community, necessarily, out in the streets.

MARTIN: No one on this panel, Dr. Drew is condoning any violence by anyone of any color, any nationality, any race. We`re not sitting here suggesting

that burning those buildings or taunting white people or terrorizing black people is the way to deal with systemic racism. And we`re not condoning

violence.

What we are saying is let`s talk about what causes us to see violence in urban communities. Let`s talk about the schools. Let`s talk about the

housing situation, the jobs situation. All of those things that go into what we`re seeing erupt across these cities. And like Spirit said, this

sheriff lacks complete credibility on any of these issues.

PINSKY: Wait -- wait, Areva. Areva, hold on now. But -- but you were -- you -- Tariq just attacked the sheriff for using those issues as...

NASHEED: I didn`t attack him now, Dr. Drew. Watch that. I didn`t attack him, Dr. Drew.

PINKSY: You didn`t. What shall I -- you took issues with him.

NASHEED: I made an observation.

PINSKY: Made an observation that -- that -- that by using those issues as the center piece, he was deflecting from the real issue. But here Areva,

you`re using the same rhetoric.

MARTIN: Well, this is where I am on this issue. There are multiple issues when we look at these police shootings. There is the issue of

constitutional policing by police officers. And there is the issue that plays urban communities in terms of schools, jobs, education. We can`t get

away from those things. For me they`re inextricably tied.

PINSKY: Okay. That`s okay. But the one thing you said -- I`m always trying to find a middle ground for us all to agree upon. The thing we can agree

upon is there are a lot of social issues that need to be addressed.

MARTIN: And what we talked about with regard to this sheriff is his credibility. This guy is one of the most divisive people in the nation. He

comes on television and he demeans African-Americans and he has been a lightning rod on these issues.

So when we hear him talk about reducing poverty, we really ask the question, really? Are we to believe you? Is this something that`s really

important to you? Or are you just reacting now because your city is erupting? So I don`t think this guy has any credibility.

PINSKY: Let me get Spirit back in here. Spirit, this is where the rubber hits the road with me on so many issues in this campaign season which is we

all kind of want the same thing, don`t we? And to say that...

SPIRIT: At the end of the day.

PINSKY: Yeah. And I`m sure that sheriff wants the same thing, that we all want, which is to bring people up. What? I`m sure he does.

SPIRIT: How we see getting there, Dr. Drew, is very different.

PINSKY: I understand that. But maybe there`s an opportunity for him to really be that person to bring the two sides together.

SPIRIT: But Dr. Drew, you know, this is rose colored glasses that you`re looking through. The reality is that not everybody wants everybody to have

the same thing. I would agree with you that we all want the same thing. But not everybody thinks that everyone is entitled to that sharing in this kind

of equality.

Because some of us believe that in order for me to have all of mine, that means you have to have less. And because I`ve had it for this long, I`m not

willing to give up any part that I have, so that you can have some of this too. They call that socialism and not everybody is interested in that

model.

PINSKY: But everyone is certainly interested in everyone having the same opportunity.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Stop yelling at me. I`ll leave my rose colored glasses on, thank you very much. We have to leave this topic. Thank you, all. Next, a mother

arrested because her 6-year-old son allegedly beat her newborn baby to death. While left alone with that infant.

And later, a murder conviction overturned. What, if anything, did the Netflix series "making a murderer" have to do with it? Back after this.

[19:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miss Steele, you`re charged with aggravated manslaughter of a child, do you understand the charge?

KATHLEEN STEELE: CHARGED WITH AGGRAVATED MANSLAUGHTER: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kathleen left her three children, a 6-year-old, a 3- year-old, and infant daughter outside in a van.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Steele turned the car off, locked the doors, rolled the windows up, and went inside the business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At some point, baby Kathleen began crying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 6-year-old removed the baby Kathleen from the car seat and began flipping her multiple times back and forth and said he

slammed the baby, he slammed at her and kept slamming her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And there`s more. That mother is 62 years of age. That`s right. She had her third child at 63 -- 62 through fertility technologies using her

husband`s -- her dead husband`s sperm. Steele charged with manslaughter.

Back with Areva and Spirit and joining us Lisa Bloom, family law attorney at The Bloom Firm, and avvo.com. Spirit, was this bad mom and should she

have even been a mom or just a horrible, horrible mistake?

[19:25:00] SPIRIT: You know, there`s so many pieces of this, Dr. Drew, that I`m confused about all the way around. From the doctor that did this to --

just too much.

But the idea she turned the car off, rolled the windows up, and left these children unattended and this happens, that means she is 100 percent liable

and responsible for what happened here.

PINSKY: And not only that.

SPIRIT: That`s just my opinion.

PINSKY: Spirit, I get that. When she not only did she roll the windows up and go about her business, when she got back to the van, the 6-year-old

told his mom that the baby was in, quote, serious condition.

The mom didn`t listen, she ran another errand. When she finally realized there was something wrong, she didn`t take the kid to a hospital, but

instead called her neighbor who was a nurse.

And six years ago, when she was pregnant with her first son, she appeared on a reality TV show on TLC called "55 and pregnant." Have a look.

SPIRIT: Wow.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEELE: I`m Kathleen. I`m pregnant and I`m 55.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think behind the scenes people are shaking their heads and saying what on earth could they possibly be thinking.

STEELE: All I ever wanted to do was to have kids. In the hospital, when they told me that they were cutting, I told her, I said, listen, put a

zipper in because we`re going to do this again like next year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

And Lisa, that husband died and then she did do it again and again and we`ve seen now her lovely mothering techniques.

LISA BLOOM, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, listen. Men, have been having children in their 50s and 60s for a long time and nobody judges them. So I

don`t think that alone is significant. I think what is significant is she clearly have some mental issues.

She had no option for child care, what to do with her kids when she had to go shopping. Nobody should ever leave a newborn alone in a car or a 3-year-

old or a 6-year-old or all three of them alone in the car.

PINSKY: Lisa, I don`t think that`s accurate. She apparently was financially well off, she`s a financial adviser, she`s a smart person. She had access

to resources. She was just not listening to reason and felt she could handle it.

SPIRIT: Negligent.

BLOOM: Okay.

PINSKY: Yeah. She`s negligent.

BLOOM: You know, but other -- you know, developed countries have child care available for moms when they need to drop off the kids for awhile.

PINSKY: Lisa, I`m gonna keep you...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: ... stay with us here. Stay with this -- stay with this woman`s reality. Although we don`t judge men when when they have children when

they`re 90, they`re not unfortunately serving the function of primary caretaker at that age. And this woman unfortunately has taken on that role.

BLOOM: But age is not necessarily the problem here.

PINSKY: I don`t know about you. I couldn`t do three kids at my age. I couldn`t do it. I could not do it. Women are superior. I`ll grant you that.

I would grant you that.

BLOOM: Listen. There are plenty of grandmothers who are taking care of children very effectively in their 60s or 70s.

PINSKY: Fair enough.

BLOOM: So I don`t think age is the issue here.

PINSKY: Well, I would agree with you, Lisa. Areva, go ahead.

MARTIN: I would agree with -- I agree with you, Lisa. Age isn`t the issue but competency is.

BLOOM: Yes.

MARTIN: This woman left those kids in the car and even when her baby 6- year-old told her that something was wrong with the infant, she didn`t take any action. And I think we should look back to six years ago, Dr. Drew.

Because apparently there was another incident with her first child...

PINSKY: Yes.

MARTIN: ... that involved Child Protective Services where they had to do an investigation. So, I wonder was this is a case of a negligent parent who

slipped through the cracks and the system failed all three of these kids? Because this isn`t the first time that she neglected her children.

PINSKY: There also is a story afoot of the mom having dropped this 13-day- old, which is the child that died, when it was three days old. So there could have been some pre-existing head trauma that the 6-year-old just

finished off. Spirit, go ahead.

SPIRIT: Yeah. I was gonna say and the other thing we have to be sure that we`re talking about here, Dr. Drew, is that children do not just

automatically and impulsively behave this way out of the blue.

I would imagine that she would have had to see some aggressive behaviors in this child...

PINSKY: Yes.

SPIRIT: ... long before this happened...

PINSKY: Agree.

SPIRIT: ... and either she missed the signs or she simply chose to ignore them on that day because unfortunately shopping was more important than

dealing with a 6-year-old, a 3-year-old, and a tiny infant.

PINSKY: And to your point, neighbors had reported that the older child had some violent behaviors, they observed violent behaviors. The sheriff

described the mom`s bizarre behavior after the paramedics were summoned. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deputies are there, paramedics are there working on a 13-day-old baby who is obviously dead, is that she turns around and goes to

the kitchen and starts putting groceries away.

You know, who does that? When you got a 13-year-old -- the way this kid looks, there is no mistaking the condition that kid was in when you see

those photos. For one hour into the interview, she never asked what the kid`s status was. Never even expressed any interest or any concern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Lisa, back to your comment about mental health. It makes me wonder about that. And again, a single parent with three kids at that age, I

couldn`t handle it.

[19:30:00] BLOOM: Yeah, but listen. I represent a lot of people who have gone through horrible traumas. And I`m not going to judge. I have never

lost an infant, thank God. I`m not gonna judge what somebody did in that situation because I don`t know how I would handle it.

I don`t know if it`s necessarily appropriate for law enforcement to be spinning out these details of this story trying to convict her in the

media. I mean, what she did was bad enough leaving these kids alone in the car.

This 6-year-old who had problems, you could never leave a newborn even for a second, but, you know, I don`t think how she handled it afterwards is

necessarily relevant to anything.

MARTIN: I think it`s absolutely relevant, Dr. Drew.

BLOOM: Are you kidding?

MARTIN: I think it`s absolutely relevant and I`m sitting here wondering if these kids were all about the reality show or about her need to have some

kind of fame or notoriety. Because it doesn`t sound like a mother who really loved her kids. So I have to question what was the motivation behind

having kids. Forget her age, at any age.

PINSKY: And certainly law enforcement and social agency will be called upon to make decision on when to extract kids like this. You know, what to do

with them. So they do have to be in somewhat of a position of judging. But I agree with you, spinning it in the media may not be the most appropriate

way to do it.

Next up, will the 6-year-old himself be charged? And/or should the physicians who helped Kathleen Steele get pregnant be held somehow

accountable?

And later, "Making a Murderer" update. Will a confessed, so-called confessed murder walk free? A federal court says he should. Back after

this.

[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHLEEN STEELE, CHARGED WITH MANSLAUGHTER: I`ve almost lost track of how many IVF attempts we`ve had. We`ve had some fresh, some frozen. I am very

stubborn. I am not a quitter. I don`t like to fail. I kind of tend to be an overachiever and a perfectionist.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think Kathleen having a baby at her age is very brave.

STEELE: And I`m pregnant finally after many, many years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That was Kathleen Steele six years ago on the TLC reality show "I`m 55 and Pregnant." Not to be confused with "16 and Pregnant" but equally as

emotionally charged. She is now 62 and she has been charged with manslaughter after she locked her three kids in the car. Her 6-year-old is

accused of beating his days` old sister to death.

Back with Areva, Lisa, and Spirit. So the sheriff in this case had sharp words for the physicians who helped this woman get pregnant at 62. Take a

look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know the identity of the doctor in New York who did this. If I did, I`d tell you, because whoever it is needs some serious

scrutiny for doing it.

There are some people out there that will do anything for money. But, you know, in my opinion, for whatever it`s worth is that you`re not a medical

professional if you`re going to impregnate a 62-year-old woman. It just doesn`t make any sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: So, let`s get around -- I want an opinion from everyone on the panel. I`m going to start with Areva. So we have medical ethics being --

being sort of -- being sort of schooled -- schooled from the podium. But go ahead.

MARTIN: I`m going to agree with Lisa on this one. This guy is way out of line. There`s nothing wrong with a woman 62 years old having a baby. We

have so many older women or whatever the word older means, but women past, you know, 20 and 30 years old who can parent kids appropriately.

PINSKY: Should there be a limit?

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: What limit? What health? What should we say?

MARTIN: Well, if it`s going to endanger the child in any way.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: What point do you say no?

MARTIN: Again, I don`t think it`s up to us to sit here and decide at what arbitrary age women should not be able to conceive. It definitely shouldn`t

be for that police officer whose job is to investigate the murder of that infant to talk about a doctor being out of line for helping this woman get

pregnant.

This case doesn`t have anything to do with her age. The woman was negligent. She left her kids in a car unattended. End of story. If she was

25, the case would be the same.

PINSKY: Lisa. Lisa, go ahead.

BLOOM: Drew, can we talk about the gender bias here? How come nobody`s putting an age limit on men having babies?

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Listen. I`m cool with that by the way.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: How much are they there with their children in a car or making dinner or take them to school? Very, very little, and they don`t get judged

by society for any of that. They can donate the sperm, they can have a child, somebody else raises it and may never get judged.

PINSKY: But Spirit, I -- I think I know where you`re going with this. Well, I`ve always felt when men have children at an older age that it`s -- it`s

narcissistic. I lack of a better word because...

SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Thank you.

PINSKY: ... because it`s like...

SPIRIT: Yes.

PINSKY: ... you know, let`s say I had a child now. How old would I be when the kids graduate high school? That`s not fair to the child. I shouldn`t be

doing that to a child. And I shouldn`t be into that game at all.

SPIRIT: Thank you, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: But I would urge women to have a similar sort of thought process. At 62 raising three kids, I don`t think that`s good for kids either. Do

you?

SPIRIT: It`s not. And, you know, the fact of the matter is these children are going to be realistically probably losing their mother when they are in

their young teens if they`re lucky or at a time in their lives when that is going to be devastating.

And yes, I understand that we hey, we don`t know when we`re going to die. There is no marker and there is no set rule. But here, where you need

intervention at 60-plus or 55-plus and you`re still making babies, it`s just reckless and irresponsible.

And this behavior with her, Dr. Drew, tells me that much like many men she probably does have some narcissism because she hates to lose. We heard her

say it.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: We`re just guessing.

MARTIN: But Spirit, who are we to determine what the arbitrary age should be? If this woman is healthy, if she is financially...

SPIRIT: This is not arbitrary.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: ... caring for her kids. There`s so many women particularly in the African-American community who are well over the age of 60 who are caring

for kids, who are fantastic caregivers.

[19:40:00] (CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Lisa has a suggestion.

BLOOM: Okay. So, I`m in my 50s. I have two kids who are grown. I took in a foster son who`s a teenager. This is the solution. Take in a foster child.

Adopt an older child. If you`re older, you have the means, you want more children, there are thousands of them out there begging for you to take

them there.

PINSKY: Lisa, speaking of foster care, she is ordered now, this woman in this case, to have no contact with her kids. Do these kids remain in foster

care? What do you say, Lisa?

BLOOM: Yes. Or if there`s a close family member, that`s ideal. Or yes, she`s obviously incapable.

PINSKY: Areva, agreed?

MARTIN: Absolutely. She shouldn`t get her kids back. No way.

PINSKY: These guys are hard core in certain issues and I`m -- I`m uncomfortable with. Spirit, I understand what you`re saying. I`m

uncomfortable with that one.

SPIRIT: Three more children who are now in the system...

PINSKY: Yeah.

SPIRIT: ... because this mom did want these children.

MARTIN: But she allowed one of her kids to kill the other one. Stay focus on the issue, guys.

SPIRIT: She never -- listen -- she never should have had the first child. She was not equipped. I wonder -- I wonder -- it is the issue here. I

wonder was there a psychological evaluation that was done as well as the medical evaluation. Because just because you`re biologically still able to

have a child does not necessarily mean you`re able.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Hang on. One at a time.

SPIRIT: I`m not done. Nobody at 55-plus when you are going on television shows, reality shows, and even after your partner dies you still keep

going. I want to use his sperm and I want to have another and another. There has to be a question here especially when the facts is already being

called.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Maybe those were embryos that she felt she had to bring to full term. You don`t really know...

SPIRIT: Because she doesn`t want to lose.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: Are we allowed to give psychological tests to all women? If so, let`s be equal.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: I`m all for that guys. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Spirit and I would sign up for that. But as you -- as you -- both you and Lisa love, it

will send us down a slippery slope. I`ve never seen a more slippery slope placed than this area. This zone to me is all very slippery.

BLOOM: Dr. Drew, you would let her keep these children?

PINSKY: I would be open to hearing something about that. I`m not enthusiastic about it.

BLOOM: Oh, wow.

PINSKY: But for you guys -- you`re so hard. Listen, keeping kids with their mother is an important thing. You agree with that?

BLOOM: This baby died.

PINSKY: We got to go. We had so much for those kids. We got to go. Next up, I`ve got a teenager murderer conviction overturned. The court says he had a

bad lawyer. But was it a documentary that may have set him free? Back after this.

[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So are you one of the 20 million people who watch that hugely popular documentary "Making a Murder"?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A judge tosses out the murder conviction of one of the defendant`s teacher that Dassey was sent to prison along with his uncle for

the 2005 murder of photographer Teresa Halbach.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The judge turned investigators, the court, even one of Dassey`s former attorney.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They manipulated him and took advantage with his mental limitations.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s draw a picture down here. Of you having sex with her there. Draw a picture of the bed and how she was tied down. Draw it big

size so we can see it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Brendan Dassey was 16 when he confessed to helping his uncle, Steven Avery, raped and killed Teresa Halbach. He later recanted. Now

almost ten years later, a federal judge has overturned the conviction.

Back with Areva, Lisa, and Spirit. The judge described Brendan Dassey as having an IQ, quote, assessed it being the low average to borderline range.

Now, watch this conversation with his mother. This is from "Making a Murderer" on Netflix.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRENDAN DASSEY, TEENAGER MURDERER: They said that my statements were inconsistent. What does "inconsistent" mean?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe they`re false or something?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.

DASSEY: Well, that`s what I`m thinking.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Spirit, there was so much about that documentary -- particularly as it pertained to Brendan Dassey that was deeply concerning.

SPIRIT: Yeah. But, you know, Dr. Drew, I haven`t followed this case over the years as closely as I would like to to really, really understand the

depths of this.

Because I looked at that and I wonder that doesn`t necessarily speak to his IQ as much as it speaks to maybe lack of exposure because here, mom didn`t

even know what that meant.

PINSKY: Yeah.

SPIRIT: And so that tells me if she`s the one that`s raising him, what does he have access to intellectually. That`s two different things.

PINSKY: And I think both were afoot here. Now, the attorney -- Dassey`s attorney released a statement saying, quote, the court`s decision rests on

a fundamental principle that is too often forgotten by courts and law enforcement officers; interrogation tactics which may not be coercive when

used on adults are coercive when used on juveniles particularly young people like Brendan Dassey with his disabilities.

And during one interrogation, Dassey thought it would be -- he would finish in time to turn in a school project. Watch this now from Netflix`s "Making

a Murdere".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. We have about two minutes, okay?

DASSEY: I have a question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.

DASSEY: How long is this going to take?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It shouldn`t take a whole lot longer.

DASSEY: Do you think I could get there before 1:29?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably not. What`s at 1:29?

DASSEY: Well, I have a project due in sixth hour.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. We`ll worry about that later, okay? All right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Lisa, that interview was coercive. It was heart breaking. There was no parent present. I believe they did two of those, if I remember, right?

[19:50:00] BLOOM: Yeah. This documentary is so important because it really shines the light of justice system. The only glimmer of hope in the whole

thing is that so much of what happened with Brendan Dassey was recorded.

And every interrogation of a juvenile in America should be recorded so we can look at it later. Thank God, this one was.

And, you know, it`s bad enough, Dr. Drew, when a prosecutor gets a kid to give a confession that`s false. But in this case, his own defense attorney

encouraged him to make false statements implying guilt. I mean, it`s absolutely appalling.

PINSKY: Areva, there was many other things in addition to coercion during the interrogations. There was -- really the terrible representation he had

to begin with, there was the fact -- I mean, we discussed this case back in the day.

MARTIN: Yes.

PINSKY: And if I remember right, the Steven Avery component tended to push aside so much the Branden Dassey material. People agreed, my God, that kid

should not have been, you know, even tried, let alone convicted.

MARTIN: Yeah. I don`t think many in the legal community were surprised by the federal court`s ruling in this case because there were so many errors

from the fifth amendment violation of his rights against self- incrimination, the 14th amendment violation against coerced confessions.

And I think the judge was so on point when he talked about the horrifically bad representation Mr. Dassey had by his first attorney. The judge said

this lawyer spent more time talking to the press and to the media than he did talking to and representing his own client.

PINSKY: Would you guys be surprised, Areva and Lisa, to know that the prosecuting attorney felt bad about this case? I talked to him on a

podcast, and he said he had to prosecute because his family would not let him settle. They want to go to trial.

BLOOM: Oh, please. He did not have to.

PINSKY: I`m just saying, he felt he had to do his job. It shouldn`t have gone where it went.

BLOOM: Call it prosecutorial discretion and that`s a big, big abuse of power. If he is prosecuting a case that he didn`t believe in. He doesn`t

have any obligation except an obligation to justice.

Listen, people are trying to force him to do things all day long, prosecute someone, drop charges. It`s up to him to make that decision. That`s not

something you can delegate to somebody else.

MARTIN: And consistent with that, the prosecutor had the opportunity to see those same videotapes. So, he knew that was a bad confession. On that -- on

the basis of the forced confessions alone, he could have dropped the charges against Brendan.

PINSKY: All right. We`re going to be back after this. Still more to come.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN AVERY, CONVICTED OF RAPE/ATTEMPTED MURDER: I feel sorry for him. He`s only 16 years old. He`s only a kid. They pressed him so much. He

probably don`t know which way to go.

But it still makes me look bad, though. If I was out there and all of that was happening. You know, which side would you want to believe? There ain`t

nothing good coming out of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That was Brendan Dassey`s uncle, Steven Avery, in the Netflix documentary series "Making a Murderer." Avery, also serving time for

Halbach`s murder.

I`m back with Areva, Lisa, and Spirit. Now, even -- even Avery, Spirit, even that guy, Steven Avery, knew that there was an issue with how he had

been interrogated.

SPIRIT: Yeah. And you know, at some point, we have to have responsibility, Dr. Drew. I think sometimes the law enforcement, the whole criminal

community is looking for just that. A criminal. They don`t care who it is.

They don`t care what they have to do to get that conviction, to make somebody feel better. But can you imagine the wound that`s now being

reopened for this family? To put this to...

PINSKY: And how about -- no, I think they`ll be happy to have this kid out. But this kid now has to go through quite an adjustment to, you know, return

to the world. Of course, I imagine there are not resources available to help this kid return to a productive life.

Now, a lot of people also feel Avery should -- you know, was sort of unjustly put in prison. And Avery, Steven Avery`s former fiancee, Jody,

tells HLN, this is about Brendan Dassey`s conviction being overturned, quote, "I`m still processing it. I think it`s great. I always thought he

was innocent, and Steven forced him to do it. I just hope this doesn`t mean the same thing for Steven. Even if Steven got out, I think he would look

for me."

So, Lisa, Steven Avery has been an object of people`s, what, concern for a while? I -- I think he is properly in jail, the kid know. But here he is,

his former fiancee is scared that he could get out again.

BLOOM: Well, the case against Steven Avery is radically different. And I think the documentary raises some very important and troubling questions.

But having not seen the entire trial and knowing that the prosecutors came out after the documentary talking about a lot of important DNA evidence

that wasn`t raised in the documentary, I think, you know, we all have to take a deep breath and let a judge review it as to Steven Avery.

I sitting here today, I`m not ready to say, the guy should be released from prison, he`s innocent. Not by a long shot.

PINSKY: I`m with you. Areva, you agree with Lisa?

MARTIN: Yeah. The judge made it very clear in the order as it relates to Dassey that the case against Avery is completely different. And that you

can set aside the confession from Dassey and still have enough physical evidence to convict Avery.

So I don`t think Avery should get too encouraged by what`s happening with respect to his nephew because the judge didn`t leave open the door for him

to walk through and to also think about being released.

PINSKY: And Netflix has confirmed that production has begun on new episodes of a docu series saying it will revisit the case and this new series will

be a, quote, in-depth look at the high stakes post-conviction process.

LOOM: Great.

PINSKY: Great, but again, it has a point of view. Be careful concluding too much from a documentary. You`re watching a TV show. That`s what I want

people to remember. You`re aren`t in a court room. You`re watching a documentarian`s point of view and a television show designed to attract

eyes.

Thank you all. Thank you, panel. Thank you for watching. We will see you next time. Our friend, Nancy Grace, begins now.

[20:00:00]

END