Return to Transcripts main page

Dr. Drew

Lester Ralph Jones Admits to First Degree Murder; Austin Harrouff Was Agitated When he Stumbled upon John and Michelle Stevens and Eventually Killed Them; Authorities Have Questions for Swimmers who Claim to have been Robbed at Gun Point

Aired August 17, 2016 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And sometimes a little bit of luck helps.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lester Ralph Jones, that man sitting right there admitted first-degree murder that he killed Paige Birgfeld.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does it make you nervous that we may think you did something?

LESTER RALPH JONES, ACCUSED OF MURDER: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will prove Lester Jones, one of Paige`s clients from her hidden life as an escort is the one who did it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her car is found torched. A stone`s throw away from where you work. That doesn`t bother you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Uh-hmm.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jones says he called Paige Birgfeld`s escort business Models Inc. twice for services.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said, did you know she was engaged in an adult business? And I said, no, I`m not sure what that is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: Soccer mom turned sex worker. Emotional testimony in the trial of a man accused of murdering her. Paige Birgfeld`s

double life was exposed as police investigated after her 2008 disappearance. Lester Jones` shocking interrogation video was played for

the jury.

Joining me, Emily Compagno, attorney, legal analyst, Bradford Cohen, attorney, Jena Kravitz, neuropsychologist, and Pat Lalama, managing editor,

Crime Watch Daily. Pat, what else we got?

PAT LALAMA, MANAGING EDITOR, CRIME WATCH DAILY: Well, I tell you. This was a stunning case, it always was and will always be for a lot of reasons, but

it`s finally a long time coming, judgment day for Lester Jones.

First, Dr. Drew, let`s talk about the victim, Paige Birgfeld. Here`s the deal. Beautiful, young mother of three, living in an upscale neighborhood.

She is selling kitchen supplies, or so we thought. Well, guess what? She goes missing back in 2007.

They find her car. It`s torched. It takes five years to find her body. There`s duct tape wrapped around her head. But they don`t have a suspect,

or did they, they did, and it turns out she had a secret life running an escort service.

And here is what we know about this one client who now faces kidnapping and murder charges. There was her torched car. The dogs found his scent in the

passenger side. That dog led cops to his place of work across the street in an RV repair place.

He had a gas can suspiciously at his work place. She had phone calls with him leading up to her death. He has no alibi. And they also found one of

her kitchen supplies that she sold in his work place. So here`s the deal.

The prosecution says we`ve got a case now. The defense says, not so fast, we don`t know that you`ve got a case you can really convince the jury with,

especially with so many past clients. And there it is today.

PINSKY: Wow. I`m going to show you more of the interrogation video. John -- Jones, this man right there you just saw says his alibi -- he has an alibi.

Part of that is he denies even knowing this woman. Take a look.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: Stopped and got something to eat, and then went home. That`s -- that`s my nightly routine. I -- I don`t know the young lady that`s missing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did know her. You knew when you saw her the first time, that she was Rob Dixon`s ex-wife.

JONES: Yeah, I knew that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Do you know where she is?

JONES: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know what happened to her?

JONES: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Emily, he knows her. He doesn`t know her. Then he admits he does. I mean, this is pretty damning evidence, no?

EMILY COMPAGNO, ATTORNEY, LEGAL ANAYLYST: Exactly. It sounds like it. If we are convinced off of a 60-minute -- 60-second segment, then imagine what

the jury is going to feel like. So, a lot of these cases and especially those that are high profile like this have been absolutely determined to

find the defendant guilty unless circumstantial evidence that we see here.

And especially given the dog scent, the gas can, the fact that he later admitted, oh, yes, I did know her. And here is what we can find in terms of

motive. He says, look, I didn`t want my wife and family to know.

Who knows that she wasn`t threatening him with exposing him? There`s a whole host of motives that the prosecution can play out and pull out here

to convince the jury that he absolutely had a motive, let alone the circumstantial evidence that shows he probably and more likely than not

did.

PINSKY: Now, Bradford, the prosecution apparently does not know how she died, and they have not presented a motive although Emily proposed an

interesting idea that he was being extorted or something. I suppose that they are going to pull stuff like that?

BRADFORD COHEN, ATTORNEY: I doubt that they`re gonna say he was extorted because she had a bunch of clients. Look, here`s the thing. So, number one

is the -- the evidence that they feel is so damning, this videotape. She was a prosecute. The guy didn`t want to admit that he knew her because he

doesn`t want to say, hey, I knew a prostitute and I was using the services of a prostitute. That`s not -- I`m not that worried about that.

Then the car that`s burning directly across the street from his work place, isn`t that too convenient? I mean, the guy works there. He burns a car.

He`s smart enough to burn a car to get rid of the evidence but he does it directly across the street from where he works?

A lot of those things don`t add up. And that`s what the defense is gonna attack. He suspiciously had a gas tank at his place of work. That he`s a

mechanic. So like I don`t think those things are really that damning. What is damning is that, you know, his scent was found.

He`s going to have to come up with an excuse for that, but he could have been set up. I mean, a lot of things can take place. You`re watching TV.

You`re getting snippets here and there. You`re not sitting in a courtroom watching day-to-day testimony.

So, you really don`t know all these things. So the things that we feel are so damning, maybe day-to-day are not that damning. Maybe there are excuses

for those things or we could say he was set up. And there was so many -- she had so many clients.

PINSKY: What did you hear yesterday from an attorney who told us when you have only horse -- horse droppings you make manure? And so there,

Bradford`s using what he`s got. Pat, what`s wrong with that?

LALAMA: The problem is and this is what the defense will argue is that the -- and we hear this a lot in cases -- investigators honed on him from the

start. And the investigators do say, he was always in their line of sight.

But they say especially because of this escort service they didn`t do their due diligence in really looking at the background of these other clients.

Now, also keep in mind, we don`t know -- even the medical examiner can`t tell us how she died. We don`t have him at place of the scene by any

witnesses. We don`t know a lot.

So, the prosecution feels, and they waited a long time, I even heard the prosecutors say, we didn`t arrest him before because we wanted to make sure

we had something air-tight. So, maybe they`ve got a smoking gun, Dr. Drew, that we don`t know yet about.

PINSKY: Well, more will be revealed. But the sister-in-law -- I hear you, Bradford -- but the sister-in-law spoke to "48 hours" and revealed an

interesting conversation she had with Paige about her past. Have a look.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

CALLIE, PAIGE`S SISTER-IN-LAW: I found out after she was doing something other than teaching dance. She told me that she had been stripping.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Before becoming a mother, Paige had worked as a stripper at a place called the Mile High Saloon.

CALLIE: In Denver when she was 21 years old, she said she had been making 400,000 a year doing it, and that, you know, she didn`t need to do it any

more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, Jena, we`ve got a woman that was a stripper, then a prostitute. These sort of anti-social endeavors do suggest somebody -- I

put up the idea of extortion. I mean, that`s reasonably consistent with somebody that`s involved like this. Would it not be?

JENA KRAVITZ, NEUROPSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, absolutely. You know what, Dr. Drew? People will like about a lot of things. But the one thing that most people,

I would say 99% of people lie about is sex. And I`ve seen this in cases before where the perpetrator of a murder like this has a lot to lose if

they are exposed.

PINSKY: Yeah.

KRAVITZ: And So they end up killing the person who could potentially expose them for this if there is a lot to lose.

PINSKY: So, you`re saying that maybe she was going to reveal his -- the fact that he had been a client, right?

KRAVITZ: It could have either been that she was going to reveal that or that the wife was threatening. You know, his wife was threatening that --

that she was going to reveal that or leave him. We don`t know what was at stake for him to lose.

PINSKY: All right. Got it. Next up, the suspect`s suicide attempt. That`s right. This guy tried to commit suicide. Does the note he wrote reveal

anything about his guilt or innocence?

And later, U.S. Olympic swimmers claim they were robbed at gun point. Now their story is being questioned by a judge who wants answers. Back after

this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paige Meredith Birgfeld, she`s a mother of three children. Paige was within five miles of the house here in Grand Junction

and disappeared.

CALLIE: First, you found out Paige and within a couple of days, we started finding out about this other life that we didn`t know about.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With provocative ads on the internet, Paige was known as Carrie, a high-priced escort. On one website, she suggested the client

can pay for extra, such as topless and nude massage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was probably murdered by one of her clients.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That is from "48 hours." Paige Birgfeld murdered nine years ago. Prosecutors say Lester Jones who frequently called her escort -- escort

service did it. The defense says there is no physical evidence to support that. I`m back with Emily, Bradford, Jena, and Pat. Bradford, should this

guy take the stand?

COHEN: My guess is he probably won`t take the stand just because of the circumstantial nature of the evidence. And also because, you know, you can

-- you can explain away the lie in the tape by saying he`s embarrassed about it. You don`t really need to put him on the stand to say that.

You only put people on the stand when you need to explain something that you can`t explain through any other witness. Because if you put him on the

stand, he`s caught in another lie. Everything is gonna fall apart. No one knows that better than Mark Fuhrman, right?

You tell one lie about one thing, the whole case falls apart, and O.J. Simpson ends up not guilty. So, it`s the same thing in this case. If he

takes the stand, I think they could catch him in some other lie. I think it`s gonna make the whole case go downhill.

PINSKY: And Pat, you seem frustrated about what Jena and I were talking about in the last segment. What`s going on?

LALAMA: I was just thinking about a lot of things about this man that we need to know. Not that it necessarily has to do with him murdering this

woman, but he did spend three years in prison for violent attacks on his ex-wife.

And, you know, I think there is some merit to the fact the defense is saying you can`t really link him and the question is, how strong is the

circumstantial case? I think that`s what I`m bothered by.

I mean, you know, maybe sometimes I`m a little bit guilty until proven innocent kind of person but -- or innocent until proven guilty. But, you

know, there may be some question here for the jury unless they can come up with something really substantial.

PINSKY: Police had seized both of this man`s cars to look for evidence, right? And then somebody called him to let him know he could come to get

the cars. Listen. We have a reenactment of that phone call. Take a listen.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Jones?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Art Smith with the Sheriff`s Office. Just calling to let you know that we have both your cars ready for you and your

wife. Mr. Jones, I`m not following you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You asked me where I`d bury a body?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You asked me where I should bury a body?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did I ask you that? Mr. Jones, are you there?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Emily, if you`re the prosecutor, aren`t you -- aren`t you very happy to have recorded that conversation? I mean, the wife told detectives

that, oh, no, he just taken some sleeping pills. It was Ambien or something. He did not know what he was saying. But come on now, Emily.

COMPAGNO: Exactly. This is the point about a circumstantial evidence case is that everything builds on the other. So, by itself sure maybe you could

explain it away because of Ambien.

But this combined with his history of violence, combined with him saying, oh, I was gone for an hour because I forgot to shot off the lights at work,

combined with the fact that he under no circumstances wanted his wife and children to know that he was a client of this woman. What goes on?

The other important thing to remember too is that it`s oftentimes not a viable threat that sends these people over the edge. If he is a violent

person, this propensity can be triggered by even his own hint. What if his wife found a receipt or something and he just then absolutely

decompensated?

PINSKY: Yeah. To that point, Emily, police say he actually tried to kill himself a few weeks after the alleged murder by taking Tylenol PM. He left

a note that read, "I prayed all night and this morning I asked for forgiveness." Don`t know what about.

The note said, "I want you to know how much I love you." I guess for killing himself. "Please forgive me." It went on to say, "Tell the cops to

get Ed. I never did it, but I can`t be railroaded." Pat, that`s a little weird, isn`t it?

LALAMA: Well, yeah, and this by the way is on the very same day that he gets the call from the detective saying, hey, you can come up and come and

get your vehicles. You know, one of the other things I wanted to tell you about is that, you know, she, Paige, had expressed some concern about this

guy the night before she went missing.

She asked another escort to handle the call with him because she was a little bit creep out by him. So, that tells me something strange was going

on between the two of them.

PINSKY: Do we know, Pat, what she told the other escort or will that come out in court?

LALAMA: Well, the woman already did testify at some point, I believe. I want to check my notes on that, but I believe she did testify. She said

that Paige said to her, you know, will you cover this for me? I`m uncomfortable with it. That`s all that I know about that exchange.

But the escort said she went and she gave him some sort of massage and claimed she didn`t go over the line. Here is something else to consider.

She said that Paige, she doesn`t think ever crossed the line, which of course I`m taking to mean intercourse. So, maybe, you know, she wouldn`t do

something he wanted her to do. I`m just throwing possibility, doctor.

PINSKY: That`s -- that`s another interesting possibility. But Jena, add up the basic mental health score which is history of domestic violence or

aggression against others, aggression against self, lying, manipulating. I mean, starts to add up to somebody that got something going on.

KRAVITZ: It starts to look a whole lot like an anti-social personality, this pervasive pattern. But, you know, before I knew about the history of

violence and, you know, the other evidence we have, it sort of struck me as somebody who was feeling overwhelmed with shame and embarrassment.

And maybe he felt like he had to do this. When I first heard about this note, I thought maybe his apology was not for killing himself but for even

engaging in these behaviors in the first place.

PINSKY: Or for killing her. Who knows? Pat, last thoughts.

LALAMA: He was just -- according to the letter, he would not admit to the killing but was talking to his wife by telling his wife how much he deeply

loved her. So, I think the shame and guilt play as part here.

PINSKY: There you go. There you go. Next up, a teen is arrested for the murders of a husband and wife. Police say, he gnawed off pieces of the

victim`s face with his teeth.

And later -- is Olympic swimmer Ryan Lochte in hot water? A judge in Rio wants his passport, but he has already left the country. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fire rescue, what`s the address?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Young man beating up a woman across the street.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What kind of injuries do you have?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been stabbed in the back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That call was made by a Florida man who tried to save his neighbors from a brutal and unprovoked attack. Police say 19-year-old

Austin Harrouff was agitated when he stumbled upon John and Michelle Stevens in their garage.

Harrouff allegedly beat the couple and used the switchblade to inflict fatal injuries. A responding deputy found the suspect on top of the male

victim in his driveway. He was reportedly biting and removing pieces of the victim`s face with his teeth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have been in law enforcement a long time, close to 43 years. I don`t know I`ve ever seen anything with this much violence, this

much aggression in a homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: The victims sustained massive injuries including lacerations, stab wounds, and blunt force trauma. The suspect still in the ICU on a

ventilator has not yet been charged. Pat, can you give us some details on this?

LALAMA: Well, first let me tell you about these victims, John and Michelle Stevens. Married, just celebrated 19 years together, and two weeks away

from seeing their grandchild for the very first time, very well-liked people, very much still in love.

They`re in their home where they like to hang out. He`s at a restaurant with his parents. So, he`s a Florida state kid, he`s on summer break. He`s

apparently upset that the service is slow. Suddenly he jumped up. He`s agitated. He leaves.

The parents are really worried. They start calling fraternity brothers saying, hey, we are really concerned. And then they find him one block away

from his own home. They could not get him off these two victims.

They had a police dog who bit him. That didn`t matter. They had a taser gun. That didn`t matter. He had some sort of supernatural brute force. The

only thing I can possibly think of is that salt bath Flakka thing, but who knows for sure.

PINSKY: Well, it is we call an agitated or -- or excited delirium. The way the ER doctors look at this is extremely delirious, super human strength,

dead. They -- they die often on the heels of this.

That is the case in this young man. He ends up in an ICU just hours later. Now, Flakka or alpha PVP, which is the more modern version of the Flakka

bath salt is something that can induce this. The Martin County sheriff says the hospital has conducted preliminary drug screening. Take a look.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM SNYDER, SHERIFF, MARTIN COUNTY, FLORIDA: The original screening at the hospital which they look for some of other more common drugs that cause

overdoses, heroin, methamphetamine, cocaine were not in his body.

We will be doing sampling of his blood to see if there was Flakka or bath salts. Both of those are known to cause what he call excited delirium. He

did have some indications that we might be working with that. He had taken off some of his clothes but not all his clothes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: So, Jena, at the end there, the sheriff or the police officer is saying that he threw his clothes off which is sort of a characteristic

phenomenon in agitated delirium particularly with Flakka. But steroids could contribute to this. Acute mental illness with mania can do this.

There are other causes of excitatory delirium.

KRAVITZ: Right. And the combination of steroids with any other drugs or any other stimulants can do this. So, I think what we are looking at here is

sort of waiting for these lab results to better explain this.

But other than that, I mean, this could have been the brink of a psychotic break. I mean, if he comes out completely clean, it`s really time to look

at what other mental health issues are behind this.

PINSKY: Right. And 19 is when these things can appear. 18 to 22 is when these illnesses can come on. It could -- could be an acute case of severe

psychosis. But it`s interesting that a lot of these cases at autopsy, they don`t have a specific cause.

Now, Emily, would this not be a case of insanity in the eyes of the law? This kid does not know where he is and does not know what`s going on.

COMPAGNO: Right, you can argue that. But there are a whole mixes of laws that goes federally and also state by state that specifically prevent from

you from using voluntary intoxication to account for an insanity defense.

So, for example, federally, you cannot. Something called settle insanity which means if you can prove that this kind of spurred what was latent in

the body, which this might -- this might be one of those cases, then that`s a different story.

But for the most part, if there is voluntary intoxication associated with it, then it only leads to diminished capacity that goes towards the

specific intent of the crime, and it only partially diminishes.

So, instead of you getting completely off by way of insanity, it means that it diminishes your capacity, so you`re still culpable, and basically

affects the penalty phase.

So, here we gonna have to see, just like you said, what the lab results come back and to see if there is any evidence of some type of latent

disease or psychosis on his part.

But it is also important to recognize that if these laws don`t account for these new drug that starts creating zombies essentially, really going to

have to move forward and see how they play out to see how the courts account for this.

PINSKY: Yeah. Alpha-PVP is the newer version. Bradford, A, do you agree with that? And B. So, I want to zero in on what Emily just said there,

Bradford, which is that if you have bipolar illness and if the PVP brings that out, then you`re insane, but if you just took the PVP and that made

you insane, you`re not insane? Am I getting this right?

COHEN: Pretty much. It is, yeah, not as a defense, as a mitigator. It`s a tricky situation when you have something that brings out a mental illness.

First of all, you have to prove that there was some kind of mental illness before something there, even like signs of it. I mean...

PINSKY: Bradford, I want to interrupt you. Jena, back me up on this. Wouldn`t you really have to show there is a family history of bipolar

disorder? Wouldn`t that be enough?

KRAVITZ: Family history, behavior, even from his friends, we are not getting anything about any abnormal behavior.

PINSKY: All right. Okay. Bradford. Oh, we are. Pat, tell me. Tell me.

LALAMA: One of his friends was quoted as saying that he was starting to see changes in him. That he never got into trouble. There was never any sign of

problem, but recently changes. He just -- just wasn`t the same.

KRAVITZ: That could be because of increased drug use in college.

LALAMA: Absolutely. Absolutely.

PINSKY: Right. His mother observed the same thing. But Bradford, could it be because he was doing voluntary injections of something?

COHEN: It could be or, you know, here is another idea. I don`t know if this is something that they are exploring. But It could be he took something he

didn`t know what it was.

This is a kind of a more interesting defense. What happens if he took something. He didn`t realize the effect that was gonna have on him. And he

takes something that he thought was cocaine or something or like that. It`s an interesting issue.

It`s not going to be a complete defense like Emily said. But it`s certainly something to explore. This is a very unusual case. We see a lot of these

Flakka kind of cases, if it is Flakka, in Florida. I don`t know why. It seems like it`s ground zero for this type of crime.

PINSKY: It is. Why not Florida? I mean, there never anything weird happening in Florida, so I don`t get it.

(LAUGHTER)

COHEN: Not on my watch.

PINSKY: Okay. There are idiots online posting videos about how to use Flakka and how great it is. So, you know, I can see people can be swayed by

it. It`s unthinkable, but it must happen.

Next up -- we are gonna keep this going. Hang on, guys. Hang on. We will talk about it. I`ll pick you up after the break, Bradford. And later,

American Olympian Ryan Lochte says he was robbed in Rio. Is he telling the truth? Tonight there are doubts about that story. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFED MALE: After leaving this Duffy`s on Indian Town Road Jupiter in an agitated state Monday night, investigators believe 19-year-old Austin

Harrouff was walking back to his father`s home.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Stops one street short of his dad`s house. One street south. Turns left which is west. And has the fateful encounter with the two

victims.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Sheriff William Snyder says the initial autopsy done on John Stevens showed that he died from multiple stab wounds and blunt force

trauma.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: It was very obvious that there was an enormous amount of violence inside that garage.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: An attack so violent, Harrouff was biting the face of one of his victims.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Officer says a stun gun and police dog were both deployed unsuccessfully to try to subdue the suspect. Took several officers to pull

the suspect off of that last victim as he bit chunks of flesh from the man`s face.

Back with Emily, Bradford, Jena, and Pat. Now, Pat, you mentioned that you heard of these agitated deliriums since the advent of bath salts, right?

And Bradford has been, I guess, defending them. In Florida -- I`ve been hearing that in Florida. Why are we doing...

COHEN: Certainly have been hearing a lot of them.

PINSKY: You`ve been hearing about it.

LALAMA: We`ve done -- Dr. Drew, we`ve done stories about the epidemic. We had Florida Law Enforcement asked us to enlighten the world about how

horrific these things are.

One of this -- I want to ask you about -- I read that when he got to the hospital, the police say that he was grunting and growling like an animal.

Is that part of it? My other question for you, Dr. Drew, when it`s all over, do they remember what they did?

PINSKY: No. They have no idea what happened. It`s usually a complete blackout. But -- but they are in a profoundly agitated, excited stage, so

howling and grunting and swinging, and all nonsensical agitated.

You know, it`s almost like they`re having a seizure. That`s kind of a way I think about it. It`s not a repetitive movement, it`s a seizure-like

overcoming of the brain activity taken by this agitated violence.

And lot of several things can cause this. And remember, what happens then is then the kid that is injected this Flakka -- taken this Flakka starts to

break down every muscle in their body. They got something called rhabdomyolysis.

The breakdown products clog the kidney. They have kidney failure. They become hyperthermic. And I think this kid was not hyperthermic though that

does not rule Flakka that can damage the brain. And they end up in an ICU in a few hours and dead, typically.

Now, I have a question for my attorneys. Austin Harrouff`s mother asked police, reportedly called police three hours after the kid stormed out of

the restaurant, she noticed the kid had been acting strangely for a week.

He was claiming that he had superpowers and was, quote, here to protect people. So, Bradford, does she incur any liability for not having reported

this earlier?

COHEN: No. I don`t think so. I mean, this is a horrible story. She would have no imagination that he was going to do what he was going to do. He

wasn`t threatening individuals. He wasn`t saying I`m going to do this.

If you don`t stop me I`m gonna go kill someone. He was certainly acting weird, acting strange saying he was a superhero, whatever he was. I don`t

think she has got any liability whatsoever.

PINSKY: Emily, do you agree?

COMPAGNO: Absolutely, I agree. This is one of those things plaguing our country now with mental illness where we don`t necessarily understand it.

Looking back, sure you can see these warning signs and say, well, she shouldn`t have done this or she should have done this.

But at the time and as a mother, that`s probably not your first inclination that you are going to warn authorities if your son starts saying something

odd, especially just for a week. So, it`s obviously extremely unfortunate but it`s not necessarily -- it doesn`t have legal repercussions for her.

PINSKY: You want to say something, panel? I mean, go ahead.

LALAMA: Yeah. Before we run out of time, I just want to say let`s not forget, who I think is the hero is this guy Jeff Fisher, who is a neighbor,

47 years old, who came over and tried desperately to break this up and got severely injured himself, but he is expected to be okay.

PINSKY: Yes. He was stabbed three times. Police of course say they are unable to establish a motive in this case. His current condition prevents

them from speaking to this kid because he`s out of it and on a ventilator.

I want to go back to what we were saying about the mom. Jena, Emily has the key point here is that people do not understand the signs of mental

illness. If the sooner we intervene, the better the outcome, and certainly tragedies like this are completely unnecessary.

If we just ask for help, whether it`s law enforcement, school, physician, mental health professional, there are armies of people out there ready to

help. Do not have shame asking for help.

KRAVITZ: I agree. But in this case, Dr. Drew, I agree with the lawyers. You have a freshman in college. So many things changed that year. He`s in a

fraternity. He`s trying on experimenting with new things.

Maybe even new types of relationships. He`s asking differently...

PINSKY: Jena, wouldn`t that be all the more reason to go, hey, honey, there are mental health services there at the school, get check it out. Things

happen in this window of 18 to 22.

And by the way, a lot happens at freshman year, too. Dirty secret about matriculating freshman. There is a lot of mental illness that comes on

during that year.

KRAVITZ: You`re right. And that is the age that we are most concerned about in terms of psychotic breaks. But, even as a parent, you know, I`m not an

over pathologize here.

I tried to be conservative here and think well maybe this is just a kid who was trying and experimenting with new things. I don`t think his mom knew

that 18 to 22 is the most at-risk age for new onset psychosis.

PINSKY: Clearly. What I`m saying is it isn`t sad that they didn`t and they don`t think about it like any other medical syndrome like the kid got

abdominal pain they will say to the doctor. The kid starts saying I`m a superhero to save the world. We are going to look into that.

KRAVITS: Well, like you said.

PINSKY: By the way. It`s okay. I knew you`re thinking of your kids right now. By the way, just experimenting with Flakka, that is not just

experimenting, I`m just saying.

KRAVITZ: No, not at all, but I agree with the lawyers. Maybe he just didn`t know what it was. He didn`t know the consequences.

PINSKY: He sure do not know the consequences. Okay. Thank you very much, everybody. Next, what is going on in Rio? Olympic sprinters diving for

gold? And some U.S. swimmers might have some explaining to do about an alleged robbery at gun point. Not clear it happened. We`ll talk about it

after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brazilian authorities say they have more questions for two of the four American swimmers who claimed they were robbed at gunpoint

in Rio on Sunday. An incident Ryan Lochte recounted on Instagram. "My teammates and I were the victims of a robbery early Sunday morning."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got pulled over in our taxi. Guy pulled out his gun, he cocked it, put it to my forehead. He said, get down. I put my hands up

and I was like, whatever. He took our money. He took my wallet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: The judge in Rio is skeptical of that story. The story that Ryan Lochte was telling about having been robbed at gunpoint during the

Olympics. She is calling for Lochte and his teammates to surrender their passports. Here`s why. Take a look.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There has been increasing speculation about what happened after the "Daily Mail" released a video. It says that the athletes

were turning to the Olympic village Sunday shortly after the incident. The judge who reviewed the video saying they appeared unshaken, making jokes

amongst each other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I`m back. Emily is still with us. And joining us, Rolonda Watts, journalist, author of the noble "Destiny Lingers" and Karamo Brown, T.V.

host, social commentator, former social worker. Can we judge this story based on how that video looks? Karamo, you first.

KARAMO BROWN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I completely can judge it. First of all, who is not going to believe a man with that horrible blonde hair?

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Give me a break. He is out of order. I mean, they`re coming back and they look unshaken. If I was just robbed, believe me, I am gonna be upset,

I am gonna telling everyone the story. And my story is gonna match with the people whose car I was in. So, I don`t believe it one bit.

PINSKY: So, Rolonda, why would he be lying? What is he doing? Is he deflecting? Is he got something else he wants to hide?

ROLONDA WATTS, JOURNALIST, AUTHOR OF "DESTINY LINGERS": Well, first of all, it`s his behavior. He certainly, just like Karamo said, he certainly

doesn`t look like somebody who had a gun to his head on the ground being robbed.

The other thing, even the people of Brazil are raising eyebrows, Dr. Drew, saying if you were robbed, why didn`t they take your fancy watch? Why

didn`t they take your mobile phone? Everybody knows that in a robbery, they`re going for high-valued items.

And for you to come back home laughing and joking with your friends on the video going back to the Olympic camp does not come across as somebody who

had a gun to their head.

PINSKY: I wonder what he`s hiding. It`s so bizarre. Why would you get on the "Today" show and boldly tell a story like that? And Emily, he`s now

back in the U.S. Does he have to -- I don`t know -- is there some extradition or something? What is it -- what are his lawyer is facing?

COMPAGNO: Right. Normally extradition will only apply when he`s actually been convicted of a crime. Here is a search and seizure warrant that was

issued by a judge. Basically, they want to question him, right? So, no, he`s not under a formal obligation to go back to Brazil.

But I do want to say that notwithstanding everything that they just said, I have seen stranger things and I always have to remind myself that I can`t

make judgment based on how humans are responding to an incident or an experience that I`m like, really? That`s how he`s greeting? He`s got to be

guilty or whatever.

PINSKY: Yeah.

COMPAGNO: Because we just don`t know.

PINSKY: I agree with you. I agree with that, Emily. Rolonda, finish that, go ahead.

WATTS: Dr. Drew, here`s the thing also. It has global ramifications, if you think about it. It is because, number one, somebody could get arrested who

didn`t do anything. Number two, you`ve got the venue that France hosted.

The venue I`m sure is concerned about the liability. And you`ve got Rio de Janeiro, Brazil that is still trying to live down the prejudice of being

the stick-up capital of the world.

PINSKY: All right.

WATTS: That`s not good PR.

PINSKY: Speaking of prejudice, we have another Olympic controversy, and this one involves someone you unexpected. It`s Ellen DeGeneres. Take a look

at this tweet she posted after Usain Bolt have won the gold in the men`s 100 meter.

She photoshop an image which shows, or somebody did, showing Ellen on his back with the caption, "this is how I`m running errands from now on."

Twitter then exploded shockingly with critics calling her racist and the tweet is racist. Karamo, is this racist?

BROWN: So, first of all, we have to stop using and throwing around that racist word. Racist is someone who believes that their race is superior to

someone else`s race.

PINSKY: How about the subtle racism? How about, you know, sort of racism, implicit racism?

BROWN: There`s no subtle racism here. As a gay man and a black man, I`m telling you there`s no subtle racism here. There is a woman who is a

comedian, who is saying that if I want to run around, I`m going to run around with the fastest person.

Ellen would have made this mean if the man was white. It`s not because he was black. I understand the -- the connotation in our country and how

sensitive people are. But in this moment, we have to call a spade a spade. And this was not racism.

PINSKY: The comedy is the running part. She`s running errands, everybody. He`s a famous runner. But Rolonda, help me understand why anybody would

find this so offensive?

WATTS: You know something, I love that you asked me that, Dr. Drew, because I think when incidents like this happen, it`s a wonderful opportunity to

talk about our experiences and our different points of view.

I believe that those who are knee-jerk reactionists out here, who are super, super sensitive, and I agree with Karamo, that we need to curb some

of that.

But I think the feeling was here we are, we finally have an international hero that is a black man, and here you all come, tearing us down again, you

have ridden on the backs of black men all these centuries, and you`re taking us down. Now, that`s a knee-jerk reaction.

Everybody knows Ellen DeGeneres is not a racist.

PINSKY: Yeah.

WATTS: She has undergone more prejudice than most black people have in her life. She is a lady who in her show is saying, everybody be kind to

another. Ellen -- just stop it right now because does not deserve that.

PINSKY: You know, I`m wondering, Emily, if there will ever be any sort of legal push back for the kind of -- the kind of mob attack that goes on in

Twitter that -- that results in people losing their jobs or being felt as though they are not safe, even.

COMPAGNO: Right. If you can prove professional damages or any types of damages that usually...

PINSKY: No one has done that though. But no one has done that with Twitter.

COMPAGNO: No, they haven`t, not that I have seen. And I think part of it is that there`s an elective aspect. So, most of what we have seen is that

celebrities who have been attacked simply removed their accounts and go inactive. But that doesn`t necessarily the emotional trauma that they have

obviously suffered.

PINSKY: Right. There`s no remedy. There`s no remedy to the consequences for these and that makes me insane. We got more to say about this after the

break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: We are discussing Olympic moments that have people talking. I`m back with Emily, Rolonda, and Karamo. You know, Rolonda, you and I and

Karamo, you too, have been talking about issues around racism for how long has it been? I think we are making progress, and then I think what`s going

on? These overreactions and violence and all these things don`t serve the conversation.

This is just the more example of that. Of course, I`m talking about the Ellen tweet where she`s running errands on the back of Usain Bolt. She

didn`t delete her tweet but she posted this message, quote, I`m highly aware racism exists in our country, it`s the furthest thing from who I am.

Rolonda.

WATTS: You know, there`s a phrase that we use in journalism. It is consider the source and consider the motivation. And to me, Ellen is so --- you

know, of all the people in the world to call a racist, Ellen DeGeneres? It only tells us about this knee-jerk reactionary movement across America. We

got to stop being so sensitive.

PINSKY: Yeah.

WATTS: Just calm it down a bit. Have a conversation with somebody. Understand why they may take it offensively. There`s -- there`s no

malicious intent in every act that offends you.

PINSKY: Yeah. Rolonda and Karamo, that is the point. If I do something of a misstep that somebody experiences as racist, I want them to correct me. I

don`t want them to condemn me or destroy me.

WATTS: Exactly.

BROWN: A 100 percent. You know, Rolonda hit it right on the nail. Look at the motive and look at the person that is saying this. You know, there`s so

many teachable moments that we as African-American can have in this country.

If you actually take the time to sit someone down and say, hey, this is why this hurt me. Just as human being. If we took the time to sit someone down

and say, I`m not feeling comfortable because of this reason. But when you go to the knee-jerk reaction and say the word racist, what it does is it

dilutes that word and takes away...

PINSKY: It`s violent.

BROWN: It is. It`s very violent. You are exactly right, Dr. Drew. It takes away from people who actually racist and then you -- you stop looking at

them and you start looking at everyone.

WATTS: Dr. Drew, I wish we would come to a time when we share our stories. America is a nation full of wonderful stories, even with the greediness in

them. And if we share our own experiences, it helps us understand who we are as a human race, as humanity.

PINSKY: You and I have had these conversations how long now? I hope we keep having them. That`s all I`m saying. So, we switch topics and talk about

Olympic stars being allowed to dive for gold. Foot races, Shaunae Miller of the Bahamas won the gold medal in the women`s 400 when she dove for the

finish line. Viewers were shocked, some were shocked to learn that the move is completely legal. It`s within the rules. Karamo, you are saying yes, of

course.

BROWN: Yes. I`m giving her a round of applause. Because the thing is, is that it is in the rules. And the rules state you can dive. Dive for the

gold, girl. Dive for the gold. Everybody else who didn`t have the forethought to dive, I`m sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Think of the amount of energy it takes to spring out on a foot race like that. Also Michael Johnson, world champion. Olympic and world champion

said, Shaunae Miller`s dive was to recover from falling. Sprinters know the quickest way across the line is a well timed lean. Trust me on that.

Rolonda -- Emily, why is leaning any different than diving? We`re used to leaning into the finish line, that`s okay, right?

WATTS: Wait -- wait -- wait a minute. That -- that will go down as one of the greatest moments in Olympic history. The bottom line is, this is the

top of the echelon when it comes to competition. Baby, you want to win and you want to go for that gold, and that is what you call competition at its

best.

PINSKY: And that will do it. Thank you, panel. Thank you all for watching. We appreciate you being here. We`ll see you next time. Nancy grace up next.

END