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Dr. Drew

Police-Civilian Confrontations Examined; Allen Ivanov Texted Friends About Intent to Shoot Up Party; The Discomfort Around the Word "Colored". Aired 7-8p ET

Aired August 23, 2016 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[19:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was unarmed. And he is a deaf individual. And think that he was just afraid.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The message from Daniel Harris` brother, Jay Harris. Investigators say Daniel Harris was shot and killed by a trooper, Jermaine

Saunders, right near his home. Officials described it as an encounter between Harris and the trooper after Harris refused to stop his car and let

highway patrol on an eight mile pursuit. When Harris got out of the car just feet from his family`s home, trooper Saunders shot him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could not hear the warning, you could not hear their command to stop.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Harris was the father of a 4-year-old little boy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was shot, and now we`re left with nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: An unarmed deaf man shot to death by a state trooper just feet from his family`s home. Joining us, Sara Azari,

criminal defense attorney, Eric Guster, civil rights attorney, Spirit, psychotherapist, Randy Sutton, retired Las Vegas Metropolitan Police

lieutenant, national spokesman for Blue Lives Matter, and by phone, I got CNN correspondent, Ed Lavandera. Ed, give us the latest.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Investigators are not releasing much, as you heard in the lead-in. Investigators say that it was an encounter

between Daniel Harris and the North Carolina trooper after he was suspected of speeding and over a pursuit that lasted over a little more than seven

miles.

Harris, we`re told, got out of the car and was only been described as an encounter, no other details of what exactly happened in this moment have

been released, but the trooper ended up firing one shot, and that was the one shot that killed Daniel Harris.

As you mentioned, his family members suspect that he was trying to get closer to home where he felt more comfortable, but all of that, you know,

simply speculation at this point because as mentioned in that one shot, Daniel Harris was killed.

PINSKY: And Ed, is there any information at all? I`ve been trying to find this. wonder if you have any information that helps us understand. Is

there something that could have been impairing this man`s judgment? Meaning the man that was shot. In other words, with medical issues, substance,

anything else that could explain why things went so bad.

LAVANDERA: The only information we have is -- is that Daniel Harris is -- is deaf and -- and mute as well. So clearly, a communication issue you can

envision there taking place at some point, but beyond that, we don`t know if there was anything else that might have been in play here.

Investigators say that they are in the process of collecting and analyzing body cam and dash cam footage from about 20 different troopers that

responded to the scene, and they are in the process of analyzing that, but this happened merely a week ago, and not many more details about what

happened during that incident or that encounter as it`s been described by investigators have been released so far.

PINSKY: Thank you, Ed, appreciate it. Randy, want to go out to you. Sort of two questions. know we`re all trying to piece this together based on

very limited information, but was lethal force necessary based on the information we have so far?

RANDY SUTTON, RETIRED LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE LIEUTENANT: Well, that`s the unfortunate thing. We don`t have enough information to make a

determination. We don`t have any idea what the encounter was. That is the critical issue here.

Now, there is the stuff that leads up to that, there is the pursuit, and then there is, you know, there -- there`s going to be a ton of evidence

here, but it has to -- it has to be out there. We have to look at the dash cam. We have to look at the body cams.

There`s also be radio traffic from the --from the pursuit which will also be very, very important to this, and also whatever radio traffic that

officer radioed during the encounter.

PINSKY: Randy, is it your hunch that him having been deaf significantly influenced this interaction? In other words, are police properly trained to

really deal with a deaf person in a pursuit?

SUTTON: That`s a great question, and to tell you the truth, no. It happens so infrequently. mean, you -- you -- you get training on how to

communicate, but there`s -- unless you have the knowledge that this individual is deaf, how could you possibly treat it like that because it is

such an infrequent encounter.

So, you`re giving your verbal orders, you`re telling him to stop, put his hands up, whatever you tell them to do, and then if -- if -- if there is no

-- if there is no way to understand that that individual is deaf, how could you possibly make a -- make a judgment call that would say, hey, this guy

screwed up because the guy was deaf.

PINSKY: Eric, what should the judgment call be in your opinion?

[19:05:00] ERIC GUSTER, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: This -- the one time `ll ever almost, almost agree with Randy. When you have someone who`s deaf, it

does put the police officers in a very precarious situation where they are giving someone commands and the person can`t hear the commands, then they

may not be obeying the commands according to what the police officer is seeing and experiencing.

But a lot of this will come down to what happens when we see the video. What happens when we see the dash cam. If there are other videos such body

cams, and that`s why it`s so important for the police officers to be outfitted with these types of videos so that we will know exactly what

happened with these types of interactions.

Because the public wants to know and wants to make sure that any type -- any type of escalation of force was properly used, that they didn`t just go

for the gun instead of using a taser or some other type of restraining device in order to -- to get this man under control and use less lethal

force than just a gunshot.

PINSKY: To that point, I have one of Daniel`s neighbors who witnessed the whole thing. Here it is. Have a look.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Highway patrol car came down across here. He was kind of smoking real bad. And then he stopped over here, and then a few seconds

later, I heard a gunshot. I saw, you know, a body on the street, and it looked like he was dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Sara?

SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah, I mean, he was shot within ten seconds, and what we do know about this encounter is that he did not have a

gun. So, I have to question this officer`s response, and that wouldn`t it be more reasonable to maybe taser this guy even if the officer mistook the

hand gestures of signing as some sort of an imminent assault or some kind of an attack that`s about to happen.

You know, that officer could have taken out his taser before he reached out for his gun. First of all, secondly, I think this is a huge systemic

problem. I think that, number one, do we allow somebody whose deaf to drive?

You have to be able to see and hear to be safe on the road, and, you know, how deaf do you need to be to be able to drive? Is there some criteria that

the DMV and state could set -- set up?

PINSKY: Or maybe some way of identifying the car or something.

AZARI: Absolutely. And my second point was to identify them on the license plate because, you know, by the time the officer gets to the driver`s

license, it`s too late.

PINSKY: Spirit. Sorry, Sara. Spirit, go ahead.

SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, you know, to that point, you know, some countries actually have that, Dr. Drew. And looking at some of the

information for this story, countries like Japan, for example, have butterflies that go on the license plate, so you recognize that that

individual has a hearing impairment.

Now, in the state of North Carolina, though, they have what are called driver`s communication cards, and what those drivers are supposed to do is

present that card to the officer upon being pulled over.

So I`m curious, and I will be curious to see that dash cam video because as the gentleman gets out of his vehicle and he`s advancing on the officer,

you know, I`m hoping and praying that that`s not what he was doing, was headed to him to deliver this card...

PINSKY: And I want to show you...

SPIRIT: ... and these -- and these officers should have this training.

PINSKY: Yes. And I want to show you one more thing, which confounds this thing even further. I will show you the victim`s car. It looks like it`s

missing a wheel, and the front appears damage. You heard the neighbors say, the car was smoking.

It was running on just that rim and nearly on fire, so did he hit something while he`s trying to flee? He evidently knew someone was chasing him but

refused to stop.

SUTTON: Doctor...

PINSKY: Go ahead, Randy.

SUTTON: Dr. Drew, I have a little information on that.

PINSKY: Please go ahead.

SUTTON: I got a little information from another source that said the -- that the driver, not the police officer, that the driver went out of

control, even when he got to his street, and that -- that -- when he went out of control, the -- the -- the vehicle had been going so fast that it

spun out of control, and -- and that`s when you heard the witness, well, he`s not really a witness, he heard something.

PINSKY: Yeah.

SUTTON: He heard the gunshot, but there are no witnesses to this, at least, that have been, you know, that we know about, which is what really

confounds this situation.

PINSKY: All right. We will keep this conversation going. Should hearing impaired be driving with some sort of identification? We`ll debate that.

And later, a teen who called himself, quote, a future murderer. He called himself that. Well guess what? He`s accused of killing three people and no

one did anything about any of this. Back after this.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was unarmed, and he is a deaf individual, and I think that he was just afraid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a few feet away from his home. He was trying to get to the safe place he knew.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He could not hear their warnings. He can`t hear their commands to stop or to stay away from them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police need to become aware of how to communicate with deaf people, what that might look like, and how to avoid situations

like this so it will never happen again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And it is another sad situation, Daniel Harris, a 29-year-old deaf man shot to death by the state trooper. The highway patrol says Daniel

Harris led down on a seven mile car chase, then he got out of his car, and, quote, had an encounter with the trooper before he was killed.

Back with Sara, Eric, Spirit, and Randy. Now, he had a previous history of having been found guilty of resisting arrest back in 2010. This, according

to the "Charlotte Observer." Eric, does that matter?

[19:15:00] GUSTER: It can matter because when you have -- we take into account prior acts that come into play with reference to civil litigation.

However, it all depends on what happened in the officer`s perception in this particular case. And like we said earlier, it goes to the video. What

does the video show?

We know there was a chase. There`s a possibility there was aggression. But what does the video show? Was he getting out with his hands up? Was he

surrendering to the officer? Was the officer just angry that man led on a seven-mile -- seven-mile chase? So, those are the factors that are going to

come in, Dr. Drew, to determine whether the police conduct was proper or was it -- was it not.

PINSKY: Spirit?

SPIRIT: You know, and then I`m thinking about this in a different way, Dr. Drew. Because I`m thinking if he`s deaf and he`s mute, do they really know

was he resisting arrest or what the conversation was? And if he had that run-in then, did that make him more afraid this time so was he rushing to

get home to get the support from people that may be able to help him communicate with the officers. There`s just so many different ways to look

at this.

PINKSY: Yes, I think that`s right. We are sort of reaching blindly into a dark box here, but, Randy, something about this whole thing makes me think

that he was not in his right neurological state or something.

There was something wrong with his -- something about this feels medical to me. I wonder if this kid was on insulin or some substances maybe. Do you

have that feeling too or is it just me?

SUTTON: There is a possibility, but the -- but the big indicator here is the driving. There`s a couple things said, you know, he was just trying to

get home, he was driving. He didn`t see the police officer...

PINKSY: Not driving like that, not on -- not on a -- he`s not on a wheel, you know, it all seems like he was not aware of things in a weird way,

right?

SUTTON: That`s -- that`s my point is that there was desperation there, and what was that desperation? Was it because he knew that he was going to go

to jail because he was under the influence? This is one of the things that we simply can`t make assumptions, that we really have to wait until the

investigation is complete.

PINSKY: But...

SUTTON: I do want to say one thing.

PINSKY: Go ahead.

SUTTON: Police officers don`t kill people just because they are pissed off because they were led on a chase.

PINKSY: I`ve seen officers acting in ways they do not feel good about after a chase. I can see that happen.

SPIRIT: Yeah, beg to differ.

PINSKY: That`s happened, Randy.

SPIRIT: Very much so.

PINSKY: Let me just say -- let me throw it again back to this issue of how he was driving, because he was driving wildly, spinning a car out, and if -

- look, if he has a substance issue, unless it made him severely altered, going home is not gonna help his problem.

And so it seems like somebody who really just wasn`t in charge of their faculties in that moment, which makes this even a sadder story. Daniel`s

brother, also deaf, spoke to the "Today" show, he said that he has had some terrifying experience with police himself. Take a look.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I pulled over, and within a few seconds, the officer is at my window with his weapon drawn, and in my face, and it`s, like, I

motioned to him, I`m deaf, I`m deaf.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Randy, what`s it feel like from the officer`s perspective? They are just -- they are just being careful? I mean, you know, I mean, in this day

we have this conversation about excessive lethal force. I -- I bristle when I hear these stories.

SUTTON: Well, you can`t -- he can`t have any -- any idea if the man is deaf until you actually try to communicate. And there are, you know, almost

police departments, at least larger agencies, do have an American sign language interpreters on call.

But you -- you can`t bring them into the scene until you`ve already -- until you`ve already made a determination that that individual is deaf, and

by that time, you`re already on top of each other.

AZARI: That`s exactly why there should be a better system, like -- like, Spirit said in Japan. We need to have a better system to identify cars that

may be driven by deaf drivers.

PINKSY: Inevitably -- go ahead, Spirit, go ahead.

SPIRIT: I just want to say we have to have a better system for the officers that we hire too because let`s be honest, we have a lot of officers out

there who are scared of their own shadows. They will shoot first and ask questions later.

And we have to be real about that as a community, and weed those individuals out so they are not responding to these types of calls. That

has to go across the board. Law enforcement has to accept that as well.

SUTTON: Why would police officers...

PINKSY: Okay, you know, why police officers are scared? Because they are getting murdered at 78 percent more this year than last year.

SPIRIT: Let`s not do it. They are the ones that need the training. Let`s be real here.

PINSKY: Randy, another statement...

GUSTER: It takes mental...

PINSKY: Go ahead, Eric, finish.

GUSTER: It takes -- it`s not just -- it`s beyond training, it`s the hiring. We are hiring some of these people, just like she said, who are afraid of

their own shadow. They are afraid of the same people whom they are put to protect, so when you put people in certain situations, they are afraid of

any type of interaction with anyone who is not friendly to them.

So you have these officers who carry guns, they carry tasers, and they are afraid of the people who are there to protect, and it`s a bad, bad

situation, and it ends up with several people being shot.

PINKSY: And Randy, let me put a little code on this that you will like, that we all should be educating one another and our kids not to resist law

enforcement when they ask us to comply with whatever their commands are. How about that? Is that a good way to start, Randy? That will reduce some

of this.

SPIRIT: As long as they are lawful commands.

SUTTON: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Trusting your people, Randy, to make lawful commands. All right. Right there. Next up, a teen accused of murdering three people. He sent

texts, warning that he was going to kill people, and he was just about to do it. Why didn`t anyone stop him?

And later, what`s in the word? Well, it`s quite a bit when a T.V. host in 2006 calls people of color, quote, colored. Back after this.

[19:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police say Ivanov confessed to plotting the mass shooting for days, fueled by jealous rage after his ex-girlfriend, Anna

Bui, refused to get back with him. Police say Ivanov hid behind a bush outside the Mukilteo house party for two hours, spying on party goers

before he opened fire.

Now, three young lives are gone. Detectives say Ivanov started getting jealous after seeing images of Anna and Will Kramer on social media. Ivanov

texted two of his friends about going through with the killings. I hate Anna. I need revenge. I`m two minutes from shooting. But those friends

never warned the police.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINKSY: It`s incredible. Court documents show the shooter, Allen Ivanov, admitted to killing his classmates in a calculated attack, yet he pleaded

not guilty in court.

Back with Sara, Eric, and Spirit, and joining us, Casey Jordan, criminologist, host of "Wives With Knives" on investigation discovery.

Sara, it`s premeditated with a text with all kinds evidence. How do you defend that? How is that not guilty?

[19:25:00] AZARI: No, not guilty is at his arraignment. Everyone has a -- has a chance to defend themselves. I mean, just because there`s

overwhelming evidence against him doesn`t mean that he needs to go in and throw the towel right from the beginning.

He`s just going to go through the process like everybody else, and -- and hopefully settle because this is, to me, this is not a case to take to

trial. I think there`s overwhelming horrible evidence for him, all texts that he sent to his friends that show premeditation and plotting weeks and

days and hours before he carried out the shootings.

So bad evidence, but I don`t see anything unusual about the not guilty plea. I think it`s standard.

PINKSY: Eric, you agree with that?

GUSTER: I do agree with part of it, yeah. Not guilty plea is what happens in arraignment. But there are several defenses that he could raise such as

mental disease and defect. When people do things like this, oftentimes there`s something wrong with them that triggered something or caused them

to do this.

So, the defense is going to file motion requesting all types of mental evaluations and to see whether or not this young man had some type of

mental disease or defect which could raise a defense which could put him in a mental health treatment, and then he`d be released.

AZARI: And I agree Eric. I do think that there`s something odd about those text messages. They are almost, you know, I`m not a psychologist, but they

almost sound attention seeking to me.

PINKSY: Well, I have people on hand. Let`s look at it. Let`s look at some of the messages he sent prior to the shooting. Here they are. I`m killing

everyone at a huge party. I don`t know how much clearer than that he could be. I am two minutes from shooting.

Casey, you know, it`s possible there was some sort of agitated mental illness, but, you know, we`re always cautioned by our attorney friends that

they have to really be out of it not know right from wrong. This kid systematically knew what he was doing.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINILOGIST: Yeah. I`m pretty sure Washington uses the McNaughton rule, and I don`t think he has mental disease or defect defense.

Even his attorney just says his age and his relative immaturity are the best I can right now to explain how and why this happened.

The key is he has broken up with his girlfriend and tried to get back with her the day before the shooting, and she, of course, was his first victim.

When he -- he cased the party. He watched from outside. He stalked her. When he saw her walking in with another party goer, that was the end.

Everyone had to die.

So, I don`t think there`s a mental disease. I really think that he simply is a very linear thinking person. He says that if I can`t have her, no one

can. He warned us he would do it, and he did it.

PINKSY: And Casey, how would it be a so-called crime of passion? Would it be walking on something provocative and sort of be out of it, being blocked

out for a few seconds, and wake up to having killed somebody? Isn`t that sort of how that works? Whatever that is.

JORDAN: He`s been tried to charged with first-degree murder and it would not be a crime of passion. You have to have something that really provokes

extreme emotions, and -- and he is so methodical. He bought the rifle a week in advance. He read the manual for two hours. He texted everybody. I

mean, how many red flags do you need?

AZARI: I have a question for Casey.

PINKSY: What?

JORDAN: Sure.

AZARI: What do you make of these text messages? I mean, to me, I`m the only one who thinks that they are really odd, that he is letting his friends

know he`s going to do this. I mean, I know he`s not legally mentally ill, for sure, but what is that?

JORDAN: That`s a great question. Listen, there are three big signs that we have for mass shootings. Number one, they tell someone. We call this

leakage. And if there`s one lesson here, it is that we need to take it seriously. If somebody says they are going to shoot somebody, take it

seriously. Especially if they are very specific. And he was.

The number two thing is that they are disengaged, and that is his breakup. So, when you have somebody who is clearly depressed, clearly agitated,

angry, especially about a breakup or being fired, disgruntled for any reason, take that seriously.

And number three is access to guns. At age 19, he could go buy a gun. He can`t buy a six-pack of beer, but he can buy a gun, and he can study the

manual, and he can carry out a plot.

PINKSY: An assault weapon. Not only that, a friend told him after, one of the guys he texted, is he gonna kill his girlfriend, ex-girlfriend. The

friend said, why don`t you go deer hunting instead?

So, Spirit, how can we --how can we help young people understand what they need to do when they hear leakage or really serious signs of potential

violence, potential mental illness? This is tell the parents, tell somebody.

SPIRIT: Education, Dr. Drew. This is why I`m in the high schools now talking to the students about the dangers of domestic violence and trying

to educate the school districts about the violence that our children are dealing with. It`s very real.

They are not aware of it. They don`t know what to do. They don`t have the answers. So, we need to teach them that when someone is behaving in a

violent way, when they are making terrorist threats, we have to take that seriously, and every last person that received those texts should have

called 911, should have shown a parent, should have done something rather than not take them seriously.

PINKSY: And prosecutors are saying that his jealousy, his agitation became pronounced because of having to look at all the photos on social media of

his ex-girlfriend with a new guy. So, Casey, are you seeing, this being reported that social media is inflaming some of these horrible behaviors?

[19:30:00] JORDAN: I wouldn`t say inflaming, but let`s be real. We -- social media really can mess with people`s emotions. The profiles that we

have for shooters five to ten years ago don`t work today because they were developed in a time when we didn`t have the kind of news and outreach and

in real time communication that we have today.

PINSKY: And -- and people are getting -- people are getting whipped up by the mob. I mean, they can go into the dark web and get encouragement on

what they are planning to do.

JORDAN: Very much.

PINSKY: Right.

JORDAN: Absolutely. So, I always look at number two, the disengagement. If we see somebody engage them and try to intercept that feeling of the

alienation, that might be our best bet to preventing it. We don`t even know how many shootings have been prevented because somebody reached out.

PINKSY: All right. We have more to say on this, and, later, social media in overdrive after a "Good Morning America" host says "colored people" on live

T.V. Back after this.

[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I went downstairs, and I saw two of my friends laying on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was in this home when a shooter stormed in and killed three of his friends.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anna Bui, Jordan Ebner, Jake Long, all of them knew the 19-year-old shooter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sources confirm, this is the suspect, 19-year-ol Allen Christopher Ivanov.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He went to a party with his assault weapon, his AR-15 semiautomatic rifle, a party his former girlfriend was at. He was there

from about 10 o`clock to just after midnight hiding outside. Now, someone at the party spotted him, and at that point, when one of the young men at

the party saw him and said, no, no, no, he decided it was too late to turn back, and he opened fire.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Allen Ivanov texted friends about this plan to shoot up that party, and get revenge on his ex-girlfriend. Why didn`t anyone alert police or at

least his parents, somebody`s parents, somebody.

Back with Sara, Eric, Spirit, and Casey. Prosecutors have the option, apparently, in this case, to pursue the death penalty. The question is,

should they? If you were the victim`s family member, what punishment would be satisfactory? Sara, should they pursue it?

AZARI: Well, I`m anti-death penalty, but to begin with, but, you know, I think that that`s where some of his mental stuff, if he has anything, like,

Eric said, could possibly mitigate the death penalty.

I don`t think he can prevail and go to trial after, you know, get a not guilty verdict, but I certainly think that it`s possible that with some

mitigating circumstances he can get rid of the death penalty, which three out of the six charges carry the death penalty.

PINSKY: Eric?

GUSTER: Yeah. This is a very tough case. Just like you said, you asked a question about why didn`t people do something? We are a society of where

people just sit back and wait. And hope that nothing happens.

With so much social media, people will write things that they really don`t mean, and in addition to that, some of these young people are so

desensitize to anything.

They think that people who write hateful things are just talking and just wanting attention, and that`s what they probably thought this friend was

doing.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Go ahead, Sara.

AZARI: And -- and there`s no criminal liability for those boys who didn`t report because they are not mandatory reporters. Otherwise, you know, we

wouldn`t have any mandatory reporters if everybody has obligation to report.

They didn`t aid and abet. They didn`t encourage him. In fact, one of them tried to discourage him by saying to go hunting for deer instead. So,

there`s no criminal liability.

PINKSY: But, Casey, Eric pointed some really interesting point here, which is that sort of disconnect that young people have between their words and

their feelings or their words and potential impact.

JORDAN: Yeah. And this age of just social media everywhere, we end up with what we call an ocean of emotion. It becomes so abusive where people can

just put down emotions, again, in real time on their Instagram and on their Twitter and on their Facebook, wherever they want to, to the point where

people become as we call it in criminology crusted over.

Totally desensitized, like, oh, it`s just another person saying something. I mean, imagine saying, oh, go hunt deer instead. I -- I don`t know how

that friend is going to live with himself...

PINKSY: Yeah.

JORDAN: ... but the bottom line is, somebody -- there`s no downside in taking a seriously, but there`s a huge risk in not taking it seriously.

PINKSY: Well, but, Spirit, people have this weird thing about snitching. They are worried about being a snitch or not being cool. All this stuff. So

they have no judgment about when they should and shouldn`t say something.

SPIRIT: Yeah, I get that, but I think it`s deeper than that, Dr. Drew. I think that most people think that other people are like them, and so I

don`t think that the average normal healthy brain can really understand a sociopathic or psychopathic brain...

PINKSY: A great point.

SPIRIT: ... so we can`t fathom that someone could actually kill in cold blood and feel nothing. That`s how he murders three people and then goes to

sleep in the back of a squad car 30 minutes later.

We can`t fathom that somebody can truly believe and want to hurt people in the manner that some people really do. And so this cannot be fixed. And we

have to do something and figure out, have some real conversation about what to do with this segment of our population. They are dangerous.

PINKSY: Another issue is the weapon, an AR-15, he several days before the shooting acquired it.

SPIRIT: Yes, yeah.

PINKSY: He would have used anything, a knife I suppose. But he texted a friend that he wanted to take a weapon class, so he didn`t mess up the

attack, and so make sure to get my marks.

SPIRIT: Very cold. Value callous. Very precise.

PINSKY: You`re right, Spirit. And in the two hours before he really assaulted everyone, he lied and wait outside the party. He read the gun`s

owner manual out there lying, waiting for his victims, and, yet, no one seemed to be able to do anything about this. I don`t know.

I`ll show you what Spirit was just referring to. Here`s a video from the Washington State patrol of Ivanov falling asleep in the back of the police

cruiser after his arrest.

There he is again, he sort of falls asleep. Any thought Spirit or Casey that it could be a substance-related phenomenon? I mean, that -- that could

be part of the issue here.

[19:40:00] SPIRIT: I mean, it could be maybe on that day, Dr. Drew, but over two weeks, over two weeks, no. I don`t think so. I think he was clear

in what he wanted to do. He probably had some narcissistic stuff happening as well. The social media part was just fueled him, and he knew what he was

going to do, clearly in cold blood.

PINSKY: I -- I agree. Again, I`m like very much like the people you are talking about, Spirit. I can`t get my head around it unless I make the

brain not work right, but, yeah, some people`s brains work differently.

SPIRIT: Yeah.

PINSKY: Next up, a morning television star apologizes after calling people of color, "colored people," all that back after this.

[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Colored, it is just a word that has horrifying connotations. It just brings back with the echoes of signs that say, no

colored here, colored not allowed.

Wherever you are in the world, it just takes you immediately back to a difficult time, rightly or wrongly, perhaps this is a little mean of me,

whenever I hear a white person use the word colored to describe black people, I`m gonna assume you don`t have many black friends.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Right. I think that`s a reasonable assessment she`s made there, but what is offensive and what isn`t? It`s get confusing for people. " Good

Morning America" co-host, Amy Robach, is finding out the hard way after she said, "colored people" during a recent interview. Take a look.

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A move on to a controversy about who plays spider man`s girlfriend in the new movie. One report has Mary Jane.

AMY ROBACH, GOOD MORNING AMERICA CO-HOST: We all know Hollywood has received recent and quite a bit of criticism for casting white actors and

what one might assume which should be a role reserved for colored people, is this potentially the industry trying to right itself?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Sure rolled off the tongue pretty easily. Just moments after she used that controversial term, critics began calling her out on social

media. Hours later, she put on an apology that reads in part, quote, this morning during a segment about Hollywood casting, I mistakenly said

"colored people" instead of people of color. I sincerely apologize.

Back with Sara, Eric, and Spirit. All right, Spirit, how much of a gaffe was this? Should she be vilified for doing it or should she be brought

around? Should she be shown, hey, you haven`t advised, maybe you didn`t realize it, you`ve been affected by whatever, let`s take an honest look at

this.

SPIRIT: We know it`s interesting, Dr. Drew, because even in that piece there, she didn`t use colored just to describe black people. What she meant

was the bigger conversation about the fact that white actors are being used for Asian characters, for African-American characters, for Hispanic

characters, and this is something that has been happening in Hollywood for a long time.

Strangely enough, she`s not the first person that I`ve heard refer to people of color as colored, and I mean people within various ethnic groups

as well, Dr. Drew. So to me, it`s not something that I necessarily look at as harshly as other people, but there again, I understand the historic

connotation and reason why we need to have the sensitivity.

PINSKY: Yeah. Eric, do you agree with Spirit?

GUSTER: I do. And partially, but there are three major factors that impact someone`s being offended from stuff like this. It`s geography, their age,

and their experiences. For example, my parents, they are retired, we`re from the south, we`re from Birmingham, Alabama, both them call me

hysterical.

Oh, my gosh, I cannot believe that this woman just said colored people on "Good Morning America," and they were totally freaking out. But being a

commentator where I appear on national T.V. every day, I understand how you may say something and say, oh, my gosh, I can`t believe I said that, and

you may offend someone because just like Spirit said, she was talking about white actors, they should said colored people.

So I kind of understand where she came from with that particular instance, but when you have certain groups of people who`ve experienced being called

colored and that a negative connotation, of course, they are going to be offended, just like my parents who called me, and, yeah, they were really

heated.

PINSKY: Sara, this is confusing to you, is that right?

AZARI: It is confusing to me. I mean, why -- why is it so challenging? I think, you know, whites are white, Asians are Asian, and in a climate of

Black Lives Matter, it seems like we have to constantly change the term that we use to refer to African-Americans, and with respect to her, you

know, a man of wealth is a wealthy man. A woman of wisdom is a wise woman. Why can`t a person of color be a colored person? I mean, I`m a colored

person. I just don`t -- I don`t -- I don`t see it as this big deal.

PINSKY: But you saw the video. There was a taste of what people of color had to contend with. That word had a lot of meaning. Eric`s parents are

not, you know, insensitive people, but they had to live with this.

AZARI: Well, I mean, yes, but I feel like, you know, it does -- it`s not in the same vain as using the N-word, for instance. I mean, it doesn`t -- it

doesn`t imply that...

PINSKY: Let me -- all right. So you saying -- so you say, but maybe we never had this conversation nationally about this word so much, but on the

phone, I got Chris Metzler. He is a university consultant. Christopher, you- you sort of understand Sara`s confusion, right?

CHRISTOPHER METZLER, UNIVERSITY CONSULTANT: I do understand the confusion. Look, if I`m telling my child, look at that person over there, and that

person, and my child is trying to discuss this person, I don`t want my child to say the fat man, the -- a person of color is a person of color,

and that`s also understand -- this strikes me as a continued use of political correctness.

Look. She said something. She made a mistake. She apologized for it. And by the way, we still do have the National Association of Colored People.

[19:50:00] AZARI: Right. And you know what? You have to also look at the context of this, of this conversation or whatever she was reporting. She`s

talking about the lack of diversity in Hollywood.

PINSKY: Yeah.

AZARI: So, you know, you have to put it into context. She clearly is not trying to say anything, you know, negative about people of color.

PINSKY: But -- but the idea of this being hit over the head with political correctness is what has, I think, all four or five of us now, Dr. Metzler

too, uncomfortable. Which is that, here`s an opportunity to have a conversation about this. Here`s an opportunity to talk to Amy and say, hey,

maybe you didn`t understand this. Let`s bring you along. This is something we should...

SPIRIT: The new term in the new millennium is people of color.

PINSKY: Not in the term. I want her to talk to Eric`s parents. I want her to understand the history of her country. I want her -- she doesn`t have

lose her job, right? That`s silly.

GUSTER: That`s what we have to do. People from L.A. and New York have different experiences than people of Alabama or Mississippi. It is a

totally different culture. So those different cultures...

AZARI: But I think this is slip.

GUSTER: So those different cultures will experience slip or no slip.

PINKSY: I think it is a worthy conversation. We`ll keep having it after this.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(START VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Colored just has some of the most horrifying connotations. It carries with the echoes of a very difficult time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The reality is a lot of people still to this day are confused by what word is acceptable. What word is politically correct to

use which is a horrifying phrase. I think the polite thing to do is to use the word that people themselves are comfortable being used and that is

definitely not colored.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PINSKY: I`m sort of glad we`re having this conversation because it reminds us of that word was very much a feature of the Jim Crow laws that God knows

hang over us to this day. "Good Morning America" co-host, Amy Robach, created a social media firestorm after using the term "colored people"

during an interview.

Back with Sara, Eric, Spirit, and Christopher. Sara, you get kind of confused about this. You said, you`re a colored person, right? That was

your statement?

AZARI: I am, yeah.

PINSKY: Okay. And you don`t understand how that word would have an effect on black Americans.

AZARI: No. I can understand it. I`m just saying we need to stick to a term that`s acceptable and just use that term because why don`t we have multiple

terms for whites and Asians? It`s only the black race that we...

SPIRIT: Used to.

PINKSY: Go ahead, Spirit. Go ahead.

SPIRIT: We used to. The history of when did white people become white is a very interesting thing in our culture. So, when you ask the question, you

have to then go back and do the work in the same way that we have to do the work to understand why the term colored is so sensitive to blacks or

African-Americans.

The thing here though was that she was not talking about blacks or African- Americans. That`s how the story started. But she was talking about the greater point of cultural diversity in Hollywood across the board.

PINSKY: Christopher, I want to ask you a question. Sara seems confused. She doesn`t really get the emotional impact of that particular word. How do we

help people navigate the language?

METZLER: Well, I think in terms of how we have people navigate the language, the historical context, number one is important, so that people

understand, you know, understand that.

Two, I think it is extremely important that we agree on a term. This is where a lot of the confusion comes in. It is gone from Negroes to black to

African-American to, so we need to agree as to what a term is.

I think the issue of implicit bias and understanding, how in fact that we all have implicit biases are important. And I think we need to give people

the space to have these discussions, rather than excoriating them, like was done on the internet.

PINSKY: Let me interrupt you, Dr. Metzler. Eric, would your parents who were really the ones with the deepest emotional reaction to this, would

they be available -- would they be able to put aside those emotions and have these conversations? Eric?

GUSTER: Yes. It is very important for...

PINKSY: Go ahead, Eric.

GUSTER: ... for us to experience these things. And I invite all of you to go to the civil rights in Birmingham, Alabama to experience what African-

Americans went through especially in the south.

So that way you will understand exactly what happened in the `60s and before that which led to us this point of fighting for equality.

PINSKY: And -- and Dr. Metzler, one last quick question. The NAACP, again, there`s another terminology right there into their acronym. Have they ever

thought about changing their name?

METZLER: Well, there have been discussions about that, but it is gone nowhere. And every time they are asked about the question, they say, well,

we`ve talked about that. But given the particular historical context, we haven`t done it. It doesn`t make a lot of sense to me.

PINSKY: Well, I think what they`re saying is they`re going to co-opt it much the way people have co-opted other language which is an argument. Let

me throw a little bomb in there at the end.

Crystal Wright (ph), a friend of the show, she responded to this controversy, tweeted, quote, people of color or colored people, I`m taking

offense at being called African-American. Thanks, Crystal (ph), I can always count on you to throw a little bomb in the situation.

Good job, guys. Eric, best to your parents. I think it is people like your parents that we need to hear from in this conversation because they are the

ones who lived with it more and certainly more than us, you know, younger folk today. Thank you all for watching. We will see you next time. Our

friend, Nancy Grace, is up next.

[20:00:00]

END