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Dr. Drew
Chris Brown`s Day-Long Standoff with Police; Another Anthony Weiner Sexting Scandal; Gun Range Sued Where 9-Year-Old Shot Instructor with Uzi. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired August 30, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:00] DAN ABRAMS, HLN HOST: Hi, everyone. I`m Dan Abrams in for Dr. Drew. Chris Brown just walked out his front door after a day long standoff
with police. A woman says Brown pointed a gun at her in a violent rage early this morning, here`s what she told TMZ.
BAYLEE CURRAN, MISS CALIFORNIA REGIONAL 2016 WINNER: I saw a diamond cross necklace and I touched it. And I said, oh, this one`s pretty. Simply
touched it, did not pick it up, didn`t you know, take it and nothing like that.
HARVEY LEVIN, TELEVISION PRODUCER: Saying what, Baylee?
CURRAN: Oh, just saying like, you`re a (beep). Put it down. You don`t touch that, pulled out his gun, pointed it at me, and get the (beep) out, and
that was pretty much it. They tried getting me to sign a waiver afterwards and NDA or whatever, I did not. I did not sign anything.
LEVIN: And he pointed it right at you?
CURRAN: He did, yes.
LEVIN: And said, get out of here?
CURRAN: Yes, get the (beep) out of here.
ABRAMS: And then asked her to sign an NDA, yes that`s a good idea. Officers surrounded Brown`s home. He refused to come out. Somehow it became the
police`s fault. He posted this rant on Instagram.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS BROWN, AMERICAN SINGER, SONGWRITER: I just wake up, all these mother (beep) helicopter chopper is around. The police are at the gate, come on,
(beep), what the (beep) you all want from me, bro? I stay out of the way, take care of my daughter, do work. And all this news, (beep) you giving me
better publicity, barricaded myself in my house. Have you seen my house?
I`m barricading myself in the palace. I`m not coming out for what. I am (beep). I ain`t going to do (beep) and it`s all from the (beep) the police,
Black Lives Matter, I don`t care. You`re not going to play with me like I`m the villain out here like I`m going crazy, I`m not.
Then look when you get the warrant, whatever you need to do you`re going to walk right up in here, and you`re going to see nothing, you (beep). I`m
talking to you (beep) doing the job. You know, the worse gang in the world, the police, and I say it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: He sure did. Joining me tonight Loni Coombs, Attorney; Yodit Tewolde, Attorney; Mike Dow, Psychotherapist and Host of the Dr. Mike Show
on Hay House Radio, and Pat Lalama, Managing Editor of Crime Watch Daily with Chris Hanson.
All right, so Pat, your team interviewed this woman, any reason to question her story?
PAT LALAMA, CRIME WATCH DAILY MANAGING DIRECTOR: You know, at this point, Dan honestly, no. But, also at this point, it`s simply a case of the
notorious celebrity and the beauty queen. You know the Hollywood stories like I do. There`s been no arrest. Nobody`s been charged and the cops are
just going to have to filter and vet and figure out and it`s going to have a lot to do with witnesses as well. But, essentially, she said she did
nothing wrong. She has partied with him in the past.
ABRAMS: Right.
LALAMA: There were no issues in the past and now we`re just going to have to wait and see who is telling the truth.
ABRAMS: But, I want to understand the standoff part?
LALAMA: Yes.
ABRAMS: So, the police arrived at his house, right, and what, they want to question him? What do they want to do that he won`t cooperate with?
LALAMA: Well, all they wanted to do was talk to him about her story, perfectly legitimate. But he begins, never of course leaving any
opportunity on chat, begins this rant, he`s not coming out, but come and get me police. I didn`t do anything wrong. By the way, I was sleeping to
this whole thing and it`s all about Black Lives Matter, it`s all a racial thing. He refused. He said to them, get a search warrant and they did.
ABRAMS: All right, and then he came out?
LALAMA: Yes. Well, OK. So, Mark Geragos, you know, friend...
ABRAMS: Yes.
LALAMA: ...he -- it was called upon by Chris Brown to come. He went into the house first and through this whole process, the police are taking
everybody out essentially one-by-one. He is still refusing to come out. After 12, he starts doing the rant and then ultimately, he did come out,
and the last we`ve heard now, this is at least, you know, going about 20 minutes back, don`t what`s happened in the last 20 minutes, no arrests, but
he was quietly and peacefully speaking with police about the matter.
ABRAMS: All right, Yodit I have zero sympathy for Chris Brown, I mean, none. And I almost don`t presume him innocent because I...
YODIT TEWOLDE, ATTORNEY: Shame on you.
ABRAMS: ...I, you know, and I`ll admit it. I mean I just -- I hear that Chris Brown is involved in something, and you know, look I`m not a juror on
a case so I can presume whatever I want and I presume that the person`s fight is telling the truth. I mean why does he -- does he have to make
everything so difficult?
TEWOLDE: Look, we all know Chris Brown has had a reputation that he`s created himself. He`s had several run-ins with the law, we know that, but
you also have to understand that you have an individual who is automatically labelled or targeted as Public Enemy No. 1, OK...
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Oh...
[19:05:00] TEWOLDE: ...and this, hold on. We have to understand that he is a celebrity. And then he has an entourage that also have entourages, and
sometimes, and again...
ABRAMS: Yes.
TEWOLDE: ...he had how many people at his house? Sometimes, he may not even know who`s in his house. Now, he is to blame, but there are people that...
ABRAMS: That`s why, I`m not saying...
TEWOLDE: ...would take advantage of him...
ABRAMS: Right.
TEWOLDE: ...to gain...
ABRAMS: I`m not saying...
TEWOLDE: ...personal interest...
ABRAMS: I`m not saying he`s guilty of a crime here.
COOMBS: Right.
ABRAMS: What I`m saying is he`s blaming the police now.
COOMBS: Right.
TEWOLDE: No. That was irresponsible.
ABRAMS: I mean, it`s so dumb, I mean...
TEWOLDE: That was irresponsible.
ABRAMS: I mean this woman calls, we heard her, right? Whether she`s telling the truth or not is a separate question.
COOMBS: Right, right.
ABRAMS: But, she made this complaint, and then Chris Brown makes this about the police...
COOMBS: Right.
ABRAMS: ...who show up at his house?
COOMBS: That`s right. He chooses to attack them in a very public way to all of his Twitter followers, whoever else is out there on social media. He is
attacking the people who are going to come in and investigate this case, and so far as that he said she said, but now he just made up like he`s
attacking them. They`re of course are going to say what are you doing this for?
ABRAMS: And you can understand why he`s had, you know, why he`s -- isn`t so happy with the police right? I mean his rap sheet can`t even fit on one
page. I actually asked the producers to put for me together a full screen of all his legal trouble. And they said, you know what Dan, we can put it
on one page. So, here is in my hand, I`ve got the two pages and a tiny little type of all the problems he`s had.
We did create this one, which is basically the assault on Rihanna sentenced to five years probation and community service, investigated for allegedly
punching a guy outside a recording studio I think that might have been Frank Ocean they thought it was, charged with hit and run driving without a
license plate, later dropped, charge of felony assault altercation outside a D.C. Hotel, voluntarily enters rehab then kicked out of rehab for
smashing his mother`s car window, taken into custody by the LA County sheriffs for probation violation, admits to probation violation sentenced
two years in jail, gets credit for time served, you know.
MIKE DOW, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: He should be in jail, I can`t disagree...
ABRAMS: Yes.
DOW: ...with what you said and I have to, you know, yes innocent until proven guilty and it feels like when you were talking about him being a
celebrity that that -- I think because he`s a celebrity, that is why he`s not in jail. This man is dangerous.
COOMBS: Right.
DOW: It feels like he`s in a drug-fueled manic episode. When I see him on social media, I think he`s a dangerous...
TEWOLDE: Yes, but he hasn`t done anything yet that we know of. I mean...
COOMBS: Exactly.
TEWOLDE: ...this has to be investigated. They have to get witness statements. They have to...
COOMBS: Right.
TEWOLDE: ...see if there`s a gun in the car.
(CROSSTALK)
TEWOLDE: ...you can`t just immediately base on one report...
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Hey, one at a time, yes.
TEWOLDE: You just read -- you just read an entire rap sheet. He`s automatically thinking to himself. They automatically think I did this, so
of course, he is being defensive.
Now, was it smart now -- was it smart for him to go on to social media and say at the police absolutely not. I don`t blame him for not wanting to talk
to the police because I would feel I would want him to wait for his attorney.
Mark Geragos then came to the home. And that is when you saw a more calm Chris Brown and...
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: ...but he is calm. Let show -- this is the calm Chris Brown. He thought the police are harassing him. Here`s another piece of his calm,
collected recollection, description on Instagram.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: When I call the police for stalker people that are endangering my life, they don`t come until the next day. Let somebody make a (beep)
allegation about me. Oh, yeah, the whole (beep) SWAT team (beep) innocent everybody. I`m so (beep). But what I do care about is you are defacing my
name as a person and my character and integrity. I am a father. I am one of the best entertainers out here without bragging and chanting woe it`s me, I
don`t get enough credit and all you have to (beep) I`m your daddy. So, at the end of the day, I`m tired of this (beep). I`m up at 6:00, 7:00 in the
morning talking (beep) for something I didn`t do. How would you feel?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: What?
COOMBS: Yes, well I get it. He`s not taking responsibility.
TEWOLDE: No, no.
COOMBS: He is not taking accountability. But, I`ll tell you this Dan that act (ph) can be the exhibit number one for the prosecution...
TEWOLDE: Right.
COOMBS: ...because the reporting victim said, the alleged victim at this point...
ABRAMS: Yes.
COOMBS: ...it appeared he was under the influence of drugs...
TEWOLDE: Right.
COOMBS: ...or alcohol. Well, look at that videotape, that`s a good explanation...
(CROSSTALK)
COOMBS: ...of what he is doing.
ABRAMS: Pat, you wanted to weigh in, sorry, go ahead.
LALAMA: Well, there are couple of things, just very quickly. He allegedly - - allegedly threw out a duffel bag that had weapons and drugs. We`ll wait to see how that plays out, but that could spell big trouble for him.
But what`s astonishing to me we talked about that rap sheet, just the law of averages would tell you, why is -- why has he not paid a greater price
for all the penalty, guilty until proven innocent?
But this man has a history of problems, but we live in a society now in celebrity where he`s almost adored for being this kind of a bad boy, but my
prediction is he`s going to self-destruct.
ABRAMS: All right, remember he`s also in a custody battle with the mother of his 2-year-old daughter, Royalty. The child`s mother wanted Brown to
have supervised visits, submit to drug testing, the judge said no.
Now, her lawyer claims the little girl was present during today`s incident. Brown`s lawyer absolutely denies that and says that`s actually just
factually inaccurate.
But can anything that happened today impact, let`s assume she -- the girl wasn`t there, can anything that happened today Loni impact the custody
suit?
[19:10:00] COOMBS: Sure. I`m sure that the mother will take that videotape and say, look, looks like he`s under the influence of drugs or alcohol. He
has an issue. It`s not safe for the child to be with him. I mean remember, everything you do when you`re a celebrity, you put it out there, but that
can be used against you in court.
DOW: Yes and from a safety point of view, this is somebody who has either untreated addiction or untreated bipolar disorder, another disease which he
should not be taking care of his child. He has a history of violence. He`s -- when you look at his rap sheet, you know, I know the two of you are
lawyers, but I really don`t think that it`s safe for him to be...
ABRAMS: We are hoping to get Mark Geragos, Chris Brown`s lawyer on the phone. He is here with us, Mark Geragos good to have you. Thanks for
joining us. We appreciate it. So, you`ve just been at the house there, what`s going on?
Do we have Mark? No. We`re going to get him back in a minute. But, you know, so if I`m right it sounds like the police arrived to question him,
right?
COOMBS: Right.
ABRAMS: He`s not legally obligated to answer those questions?
COOMBS: No, he`s not.
ABRAMS: But, so why is that a standoff?
COOMBS: Well, because they wanted him to cooperate. He didn`t cooperate. So, then they wanted to come in, he says, no, go get a search warrant. So,
at that point, they`re standing outside his house waiting to get that search warrant, so that`s considered a standoff. There`s no like guns
drawn, it`s not like that.
But I`ll tell you, here`s the issue with Chris Brown. He just doesn`t follow anybody. When a judge gives him rules, he doesn`t follow that.
That`s why he has such a long probationary rap sheet because he kept violating that probation. Everything the judge tells him to do, he doesn`t
do it.
So, maybe he has guns in his house when he is not supposed to have guns in his house. There could be a lot of things that are going on and that`s what
people kind of assume because he never seem to be able to follow the rules when they are applied to him.
ABRAMS: All right, Mark Geragos, are you here with us?
MARK GERAGOS, CHRIS BROWN ATTORNEY: I am. How are you?
ABRAMS: Hello, Mark. Good to hear from you. So, you`ve gone at the house, so what`s going on there?
GERAGOS: I`m still here. They are doing a search and hi, Dan. How are you, by the way?
ABRAMS: Good to see you.
GERAGOS: Good to see you.
ABRAMS: So, they`re continuing the search there, and we have -- just to bring you up-to-date, we played the sound of this woman who has made this
allegation against Chris Brown. What is your client`s position on that?
GERAGOS: My client`s position is that we`re cooperating. There`s no truth to it, and we`re going to let it play out.
ABRAMS: Why did he allow this to become a kind of a spectacle? I mean he goes on Instagram, ranting against the police. I`ve got to believe that he
gave you a call before he went on Instagram you would have said, you know what, it`s probably isn`t such a good idea.
GERAGOS: I try to stay out of the crisis PR there business and try to -- try to concentrate on the legal defense.
ABRAMS: But, you know, as you can imagine we were just talking about the custody aspect of this, right? I mean I would assume that his ex is now
going to this rant on Instagram against him?
GERAGOS: Well, last time I looked, you still have a First Amendment, so I don`t think that that`s and, you know, I don`t think anybody would say that
that necessarily means that he is not fit. In fact, it`s been quite the opposite.
So, I don`t think that that`s going to play out or be a problem and obviously I want to deal with what I`m dealing with, which is the search
right now, and the allegation that have been made, and I`m pretty confident that we`ll end up in a good place.
ABRAMS: And why is he blaming the police, though? So, the police get called to come there based on this woman`s report, and he then blames it all on
the police.
GERAGOS: Well, if you knew anything about the history here, and I think part of his frustration is he`s been a victim of repeated stalkers and
people who have broken into the house and everything else, so I think there`s a great deal of frustration because of that and the response and
the protection has been a problem, so I understand it. I feel his pain, to quote our former president, but that`s hardly the -- that`s hardly my first
and foremost issue right now.
ABRAMS: But he has also been a repeat visitor with the cops on the other side as well.
GERAGOS: Well, as a -- as I like to point out, I think in 95% of those incidents it`s turn out that there was no "there, there", so you know,
unfortunately in today`s society, that`s one of the downsides of fame or infamy.
ABRAMS: Yes. I mean, he was convicted, you know, served you know, probation, there`s time, et cetera, but...
GERAGOS: Right, which he successfully completed and was terminated early, and all of the other things would be exception of the one D.C. thing ended
up being a misdemeanor with no probation, no fine, no restitution and that was a resolved as well. So, I mean he is not the first guy who between the
ages of 18 and 25 has a couple of run-ins with the law.
ABRAMS: Yes, but he has been significantly worse than most, yes.
[19:15:00] GERAGOS: Not really. Not really.
ABRAMS: Oh, come on -- come on.
GERAGOS: Go sit down in Department 30 here, Dan, in the criminal courts building...
ABRAMS: Yes.
GERAGOS: ...and tell me that one felony and one misdemeanor is unusual for somebody in his age group, that`s not the...
ABRAMS: You mean...
GERAGOS: ...that`s not going to be breaking news.
ABRAMS: ...yes, at the criminal court building maybe that`s the case, but in the community at large. Let me take a break...
GERAGOS: I don`t know. I don`t know that that`s the case but...
ABRAMS: Oh, I can`t come back to. OK, all right. I got to thank you. I`m out of time. I`m told I`d got to go...
GERAGOS: ...you`re a heart out. Thanks, Dan.
ABRAMS: I`m the guest host, so, you know, I do what I can.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Mark thanks a lot for coming. Appreciate it.
GERAGOS: OK, bye-bye.
ABRAMS: We`re going to take a break. Be right back then.
[19:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY WEINER, FORMER CONGRESSMAN: It takes one to know one, (beep). These things are in my past. I can`t say that they`re not going to be able to
find another picture.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is an argumentative, perpetually, horny middle aged man.
WEINER: I say that there are multiple women over an extended period of time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He landed on the cover of today`s New York Post with an explicit selfie next to his sleeping 5-year-old son. The Post reporting the
picture was sent by 40-something divorcee out west in the midst of a sexual conversation with the caption, "someone just climbed into my bed."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:25:00] ABRAMS: I still can`t keep looking at that picture on the cover of The Post. More fallout from, you know, Weiner explicit text messages
sent by him. Yet another woman exposed by The Post.
This one though includes a picture of the former congressman`s crotch with his son sleeping next to him. Now, some are wondering if he should be
denied custody of his child.
I`m Dan Abrams for Dr. Drew back with Loni, Yodit, Mike and Pat. Pat, what more do we know about any investigation into Weiner from child custody?
LALAMA: Well, we do know that some political folks have called for this investigation that happened. It has not happened yet and I`ve heard both
sides of the story on this, I think it was a state senator from New York who said, absolutely they must investigate -- they investigate lesser
incidents than this.
And others saying divorce, yes criminal investigation or child custody, no. So it`s hard to tell at this point, but, you know, I remember when Michael
Jackson held his child over a balcony, there was an investigation of that. I`m hoping, personally, that there is one in this case.
ABRAMS: Yes, Loni I don`t agree. I mean State Senator, Ruben Diaz is the one calling for Weiner to be investigated by child services because of the
picture. I think the notion that you would lose, I mean look...
COOMBS: Yes.
ABRAMS: ...Anthony Weiner for a lot of other reasons...
COOMBS: Yes.
ABRAMS: ...may have custody issues meaning...
COOMBS: Right.
ABRAMS: ..there were questions about his psychological health...
COOMBS: Yes, well...
ABRAMS: But the fact that he takes a picture...
COOMBS: Yes.
ABRAMS: ...of his crotch sent on a private, you know...
COOMBS: Yes.
ABRAMS: ...to somebody else...
COOMBS: Yes.
ABRAMS: ...with his kid next to him...
COOMBS: Yes.
ABRAMS: ...shouldn`t, in my view, mean that suddenly he loses custody of the child.
COOMBS: OK, Dan I know people that people are going to hate me for saying this and they`re going to think there`s something`s wrong with me, but I
agree with that.
Look, there are parents and anybody who has kids and who have little kids, at some point they made out or even had sex with their kids in the room
depending on the age of the kids and how aware they are of what`s going on.
People, who are acting like this, he was actually having sex so that he was naked taking pictures, something that the 4 year-old, and that`s old enough
for...
LALAMA: Loni...
COOMBS: ...hold on, Pat, hold on that he could actually do play out or act out on what he has seen -- all he has seen is dad taking a picture. He`s
not aware of what`s really...
LALAMA: Loni...
COOMBS: ...going on. He doesn`t know the sexting going. I know, Pat, I know it`s gross...
ABRAMS: Go ahead, Pat.
(CROSSTALK)
COOMBS: ...I know it`s gross...
(LAUGHTER)
COOMBS: ...but it`s not necessarily ground to take his child away. That`s a huge step.
LALAMA: Nobody is saying...
TEWOLDE: Yes, nobody is going...
LALAMA: ...no one is saying take his child away, but for heaven`s sakes, are you not telling me that this is a gross display of bad judgment? This
is not just...
COOMBS: Sure.
LALAMA: ...OK, I`m having sex with my wife, the mother of my child. This is a guy who clearly cannot stop himself -- who cannot stop himself. That
doesn`t concern you about what next step he might take?
COOMBS: Sure, sure Pat. And that`s the issue, is what else is he doing around his child? But in and out of this one picture, it hasn`t it
factor...
ABRAMS: Mike.
COOMBS: ...it`s gross, but this one picture in of itself doesn`t necessarily show behavior that`s dangerous to the child.
ABRAMS: Mike, if you`re evaluating him psychologically, how much weight do you put on the picture with the kid?
DOW: I would be worried. This is somebody who has a history...
LALAMA: Yes.
DOW: ...he has an impulse control disorder.
LALAMA: Exactly.
DOW: I agree with you Loni. I agree with you that it is not -- a 4 or 5 years old, parents have sex with a 4-year-old in the room. That`s not
traumatic, that 4 or 5-year-old is going to grow up one day. He is going to see on the internet...
LALAMA: Yes.
DOW: ...the photo of his father...
COOMBS: That`s right.
DOW: ...direction I would not want to be that child, and I think the most concerning thing from looking at DCFS and looking at is this man fit, he
has an untreated impulse control disorder...
COOMBS: Right.
DOW: ...and like somebody who has an untreated alcoholic, somebody who has an impulse control, so is he going to make a great father right now.
ABRAMS: I`m going to ask an embarrassing question because I have a 4 year old, right? Do people really have sex in the room with their 4 year old...
DOW: They do.
ABRAMS: I mean like did that happen a lot?
DOW: Yes, they do.
ABRAMS: Really?
COOMBS: When you have lots of kids there`s...
ABRAMS: I mean I don`t know. I mean like that`s just -- that`s just, I don`t know.
COOMBS: ...with you Dan.
(LAUGHTER)
ABRAMS: No, that was me.
(LAUGHTER)
ABRAMS: It`s just, you know, I just didn`t know that that was a thing. Like everyone is like, well of course, you know, people have sex with their 4-
year-old in the room, and I`m like, they do, really?
(CROSSTALK)
COOMBS: ...a thing. I would say sometimes parents get desperate when they have kids.
ABRAMS: All right.
TEWOLDE: ...is what has he done that we don`t know of?
COOMBS: Yes, right.
TEWOLDE: Because, yes we see him...
ABRAMS: Yes.
TEWOLDE: ...clearly taking priority and getting a great crotch shot and not really attending to his son. But what has he done when the cameras weren`t
there?
ABRAMS: Yes.
TEWOLDE: So, that that at least warrant...
ABRAMS: Back in 2013, he did a radio interview on WNYC and he insisted he didn`t have an addiction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEINER: Maybe it would be -- maybe an easier answer to say, well, I`ve got some addiction or I was, you know, abused as a child or something else.
It`s none of those things. It was simply a blind spot.
BRIAN LEHRER, WNYC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: You`re how confident it`s not happening again?
WEINER: It is behind me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
[20:00:00] COOMBS: Whoops.
TEWOLDE: That`s concerning. That`s...
ABRAMS: I don`t know. I don`t know.
TEWOLDE: That`s concerning.
ABRAMS: I mean, right...
TEWOLDE: The fact he can`t even admit that he actually has a problem...
COOMBS: Right.
TEWOLDE: ...this at least warrants an investigation into a child neglect at the very least. It doesn`t rise to a criminal investigation, but at least
look into it.
DOW: And the fact that he`s in public office -- the fact that he`s gone through this before, he has made public promises...
TEWOLDE: Yes.
DOW: ...it shows just how unable he is to control these impulses...
TEWOLDE: Right.
DOW: ...right?
LALAMA: Dan, can I throw in one thing?
ABRAMS: Yes.
LALAMA: Let`s keep in mind his long suffering, perhaps soon to be ex-wife, who herself has been humiliated by this on a personal level...
ABRAMS: Totally.
LALAMA: ...but look at the position she`s in politically and he can`t say to himself, "OK, Anthony not today. My wife is in a really powerful
position with a really powerful woman...
ABRAMS: Yes.
LALAMA: ...I`m going to stop myself." He can`t do it.
ABRAMS: And -- no, he can`t. Look and I feel -- look, obviously, I feel incredibly sorry for the boy...
TEWOLDE: Yes.
ABRAMS: ...who I`ve actually met and feel terrible for him that that this is, you know, this is what he`s going to grow up hearing about because
right now, I`m sure it`s not a big deal to him, but it`s going to be.
Next up, we`re going to hear from the woman who made a name for herself exchanging provocative pictures with Anthony Weiner three years ago back
after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:30:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEINER: Perhaps I`m surprised that more things didn`t come out sooner. I`m responsible for this behavior that led us to be in this place. This
behavior that I did was problematic to say the least destructive to say the most, caused many stresses and strains in my marriage.
HUMA ABEDIN, CLINTON AIDE: What I want to say is I loved him. I have forgiven him. I believe in him. And as he has said from the beginning, we
are moving forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: Oh, I feel so bad for her. That was Anthony Weiner and his wife 2013 talking about the seconds remember 2011, 2013 now 2016, Dan and we`re
back with Loni, Yodit and Mike. Joining us by phone is Sarah Symonds, Infidelity Analyst and the author of A Handbook for the Other Woman. Sarah
thanks for joining us. We appreciate it. Do you feel bad for Anthony Weiner?
SARAH SYMONDS, INFIDELITY ANALYST, AUTHOR OF A HANDBOOK FOR THE OTHER WOMAN: Hello, Dan. I do, actually. I might be the only person in the world
who actually who feels sorry for him. He is not an addict. He is just an unhappily married man. It`s textbook and he represents millions of
unhappily married man across America.
And by the way, this photo with the child, OK, he is making some bad choices, but where is Huma in all of this? He is a stay-at-home dad right
now, you know, he probably feels like he doesn`t wear the trousers anymore, she does.
If she is so worried about him and the child being with him, she needs to spend more time at home. The poor guy is exhausted. He was probably looking
for a little kickback, some relief.
ABRAMS: Come on. You know, you really are blaming Huma for this?
SYMONDS: I`m not...
ABRAMS: Come on.
SYMONDS: ...see that`s the thing -- that`s very quick to judge. I`m not blaming her.
ABRAMS: Well, it sounded like it.
SYMONDS: ...we know - we know nothing about whose side of the story. Some wives inspire their husbands to do things like this. Huma looks - Huma
looks a very serious woman. I don`t think she`s sending photos of his in other regions to who but it`s obviously something he wants to do.
I predict they are deeply incompatible. I can`t believe what they`ve got in common. Of course, it was never going to work, and I feel sorry for all the
trouble he is getting quite frankly.
ABRAMS: So, look I feel a little bit sorry for him as well, but the notion that this is part of just what unhappily married people do, you know, when
you`re in the public eye and you`re unhappily married sending, you know, I`m trying to think of a funny way to phrase it, but sending these kind of
penis shots to multiple women again and again and consistently ruining your life and your career doesn`t seem to me typical unhappy marriage.
SYMONDS: OK, think about it. First of all, he`s not really in the public eye anymore. He is probably...
ABRAMS: He was running for mayor in 2013.
SYMONDS: Yes, I said anymore. But he is probably not that happy with his wife who has probably got him on the naughty steps and she made him forgive
and try to repent, et cetera.
As an infidelity analyst, I deal with stories like this all the time. My inbox would blow you away. So -- I`ve met tens of Anthony Weiner`s in
person and online.
I would say they are deeply unconnected, incompatible and that`s why he has to seek thrills outside. And if you think about it, he must be so unhappy
and feel so unloved to take the risks of what you`re speaking about.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think they`re divorce, right.
SYMONDS: ...with women who are going to sell the photos.
ABRAMS: Yes. I mean I -- Mike?
(LAUGHTER)
ABRAMS: OK, let me -- look, the notion that this is Huma`s fault for not sort of being woman enough for big muscular Anthony with...
DOW: Yes.
ABRAMS: ...is one of the most absurd things that I`ve ever heard.
DOW: I feel like we`ve just gone back 100 years in time...
SYMONDS: ...no.
DOW: ...and listen Sarah no, no this is -- that`s insane. So, I mean, it just feels like this is a sexual addiction. This is something that is not
her fault. If they are incompatible, to blame her for their incompatibility, she -- we should...
SYMONDS: I`m not blaming...
DOW: ...we should absolutely...
ABRAMS: I didn`t hear you use the word, but it sure sounded like you`re blaming her.
SYMONDS: No, no listen. Two people make a marriage work or they make it don`t work and it takes two people to talk about -- look, there`s a line,
if you should marry the person, you can be absolute yourself with. I don`t think he can be himself in front of Huma.
DOW: And if that`s true, the fact that he is sending erection photos after he`s already been busted for this tells me, how difficult it is for him to
resist those urges, and that is a diagnosable condition.
That is something that he needs professional help with and this has nothing to do with their marriage. I mean in terms of, you know, is that her fault?
This has everything to do with something that he needs to get treated...
ABRAMS: She stood by...
DOW: ...good for her...
ABRAMS: ...way more...
SYMONDS: OK, let me - let me ask you this question.
ABRAMS: ...than most women would have ever tolerated.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
[19:35:00] ABRAMS: Go ahead, Sarah.
SYMONDS: Maybe Huma never have sex, maybe she doesn`t engage in the kinds that he`d like to do.
COOMBS: You know what, but you don`t really know that. You are assuming so much right now. You have no idea what the effort she went through or has
made to make this marriage work and for you to sit there and say that...
SYMONDS: Do you have any idea? Do you live with them? Do you know...
COOMBS: No. But do you?
SYMONDS: ... what goes on behind...
COOMBS: Do you? Do you? Because what you are saying right now is crazy and ludicrous.
SYMONDS: No, I`m not saying I do.
COOMBS: You know - you know...
SYMONDS: By the way, the fact that you`ve mentioned so blatantly that you have sex -- when people have sex in front of 4-year-old I find completely
disgusting and so hypocritical.
COOMBS: Oh, I wasn`t the one that actually said it so...
DOW: That was me.
COOMBS: ...yes.
(LAUGHTER)
DOW: That was me, in the room.
SYMONDS: ...that needs investigating if anything...
(CROSSTALK)
DOW: I meant sleeping 4-year-olds because this is what we`re talking about a 4-year-old sleeping in a room I don`t really find that, you know, a
married couple I don`t find that...
SYMONDS: How do you know that he or she sleeping, come on it`s not right...
COOMBS: You know...
SYMONDS: I`m sorry, but then I`m British we have different values.
COOMBS: You know, Sarah it`s interesting...
(CROSSTALK)
COOMBS: ...Sarah, it`s interesting you automatically assumed that there is something wrong in their sex life together, when you watch the documentary
that`s very open about the relationship. In the beginning when it`s supposed to be about Anthony Weiner having this wonderful revival of
running for mayor and you think that it`s all behind them, you actually see their interaction and you can tell she actually really likes him and maybe
loves him.
ABRAMS: Yes.
COOMBS: I don`t think...
ABRAMS: I`ve got to take a break.
SYMONDS: OK, what does -- listen, what does that say about Huma if she decides to like and love a man like this that keeps hurting her? What does
that say about this woman who is supposed to be so educated?
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: All right, well...
COOMBS: ...we`re analyzing. No, it`s all her fault.
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: ...you know what I think it`s time to end the segment, Sarah thank you for coming. I`m really going to look forward to talking about anything
other than Anthony Weiner`s - Weiner...
(LAUGHTER)
ABRAMS: ...and we will do that in the next segment, a much more serious and tragic story. A 9-year-old girl accidentally killed an instructor with an
Uzi. Now, his family is suing the gun range, controversial case coming up after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:40:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to keep that held in; otherwise, the gun won`t fire, OK?
OK, turn your - this leg forward. There you go. Just like that. All right, go ahead and give me one shot.
All right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is he shot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right in the head, dude. He`s shot in the head?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think he`s going to make it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he still able to speak to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he`s completely unconscious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: So sad. A 9-year-old girl visiting an Arizona gun range loses control of an Uzi. Gun instructor, helping her, suffered a fatal bullet
wound to the head. Tonight, the family of 39-year-old, Charles Vacca, has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the owners of that gun range. I`m
back with Loni, Yodit, and Mike.
The victim`s family says, "It is fundamentally unsafe to give machine guns to children." Loni, what do you expect that the gun range is going to argue
here?
COOMBS: Well, there`s a number of things for them to argue. First of all, there is no legal law that says a certain age is good or not. Their policy
at that gun range is that if they are 8 years or older, they can fire an assault rifle or assault weapon, however, only if that particular
instructor decides that they are capable and safe to do so.
So, this instructor made that determination on his own with this child, and then this instructor handled the gun with her in a way that he ended up
getting shot and killed. And many experts looked at that videotape and say he made a number of mistakes as far as the way experts would have handled
that situation.
ABRAMS: Yodit, we`re talking not just about an assault, we`re talking about a fully automatic weapon...
TEWOLDE: Right.
ABRAMS: ...an Uzi here...
TEWOLDE: Right.
ABRAMS: ...do you think that this is strongly - a potentially strong lawsuit?
TEWOLDE: Not at all. Who would be in a better position to instruct, he has special skills, this instructor. He had the knowledge and for him to feel
comfortable in handling that kind of machine gun with a 9-year-old, he`s got to bear that responsibility.
ABRAMS: Well, he is the one that put it on automatic. But let`s ask, you know, James Goodnow joins us now. He is the attorney who is representing
the Vacca family. Thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it.
What do you make of that? I mean, you know that the gun range is going to point the finger at your client`s former father, husband, et cetera and say
it`s his fault for putting it on automatic, it`s his fault for not standing behind, it`s his fault for not taking the necessary security measures?
JAMES GOODNOW, ATTORNEY FOR VACCA FAMILY: Well, I think if you look at this case at its core, there`s one factor we know, and that`s if children
weren`t allowed to shoot fully automatic weapons at this range, Charlie Vacca would still be alive. And I think it`s important that we step back
here and understand this situation.
Charlie Vacca served his country, served our country and he did two tours in Kosovo, and he came back in a situation that many veterans find
themselves in, and that`s struggling to find work. He works here and the problem is he was not provided with the proper training.
Yes, he had the military background but the military as far as I know doesn`t train anyone in how to teach young children how to shoot fully
automatic weapons. So, Charlie Vacca is a victim of this system that was really profiting off an unsafe environment.
ABRAMS: Look, I have great sympathy for Charlie Vacca. Obviously, I have great sympathy for his family. I think no matter how you look at it this is
a tragedy, but you`re a lawyer, I`m a lawyer. Our panels are lawyers. We have to also look at this through the legal prism in the end and the
reality is, the Arizona authorities looked into this range after this happened, and they were fully in compliance with all Arizona laws.
GOODNOW: Well, you have to draw a sharp distinction here between OSHA Laws or other laws and what`s negligent in the civil context here...
ABRAMS: Yes.
[19:45:00] GOODNOW: ...we of course know as lawyers and other people out there understand that the standard in a case like this is what`s
reasonable?
And is it reasonable for there to be an operation that ships tourists from Las Vegas across the border into Arizona takes them to a Disneyland-like
environment with pictures of Rambo, a monster truck hamburger, and then has policies that allow young children to shoot machine guns...
ABRAMS: Yes.
GOODNOW: ...weapons of war that fire a thousand rounds a minute...
ABRAMS: Look, I...
GOODNOW: ...I don`t think a...
ABRAMS: ...yes, look...
GOODNOW: ...but I don`t think the jury will conclude that.
ABRAMS: I 100% agree with you that 9-year-old should not be firing machine guns, period. There should be - that should be legislated, that should be
policy, et cetera but I still think you`re going to have a bit of an uphill battle here.
Let me ask you to take a break for a second. We come back we`re going to hear from the victim`s children as well. They had a message for that little
girl who accidently killed their dad, coming back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:50:00] ABRAMS: I`m Dan Abrams in for Dr. Drew tonight. Gun instructor Charles Vacca killed when a 9-year-old girl lost control of an Uzi of
course can fire five rounds in a third of a second, back with Loni, Yodit, Mike and James Goodnow, the attorney for the family.
All right, James, reports say that Charles Vacca switched the Uzi to automatic after working with the girl. Is that true and is it significant?
GOODNOW: Well, we all know what the video footage showed. But there is a lot that the video footage didn`t show and that is the training that led up
to this, that is the situation -- the environment that the defendants in this case created.
So, I think the question isn`t about what Charlie did or didn`t do, but what should have this operation have done to ensure that this type of
tragedy doesn`t happen.
ABRAMS: But you know that the legal question is going to be about what Charlie did or didn`t do.
GOODNOW: Well, that`s certainly going to be part of it absolutely and jury in this case is going to be asked to look at all of the players involved
and that would include Charlie, that would also include bullets and burgers and this syndicate of businesses that were profiting from this amusement
park-like atmosphere.
ABRAMS: All right, a month after the shooting, the family of Charlie Vacca recorded a video message for the 9-year-old girl. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re Charlie Vacca`s kids and we wrote this letter to the little girl. We don`t know your name but we are connected by this
tragedy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re only 9 years old. We think about you. We are worried about you. We pray for you. And we wish you peace. Our dad would
want the same thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someday, we hope we can meet you, hug you and tell you that it`s OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: Oh, my God, so heartbreaking to watch that. Mike, as you watch that and you think about that 9-year-old girl, you know, we`re talking a lot
about Charlie Vacca here of course of the subject of the lawsuit...
DOW: Yes.
ABRAMS: ...but that 9-year-old girl must be suffering from incredible.
DOW: Yes, you know, it`s so interesting moving away from the legal into the psychological, you know, and working in a lot of schools here in the Los
Angeles Public School District I know that when you go through a trauma like that, there is so much guilt, you know.
There is posttraumatic stress. There is - there can be depression that sets in. So, I really - I really applaud the family for making this video. I
think it`s so wonderful because, you know, that this 9-year-old as she grows up is going to be struggling with those issues.
I`m just so glad and I do hope that her family gets her treated because she probably will need some treatment after this.
ABRAMS: And according to the report from the Mojave County Sheriff`s Department after the shooting, the girl told her parents immediately after
that the gun hurt her shoulder and was, "too much for her," this is before she even knows...
COOMBS: Right.
ABRAMS: ...that she has shot...
COOMBS: Right.
ABRAMS: ...and killed him.
COOMBS: Yes, apparently the parents went to the daughter thinking oh, she is hurt and they didn`t even notice that he was down on the ground and he
had been shot and then they realized...
TEWOLDE: Right.
COOMBS: ...so, the whole thing was such a tragedy and very traumatic obviously for that young girl.
ABRAMS: All right, James, look whether you win this lawsuit or don`t win this lawsuit, I have, you know, I have so much admiration for those kids in
that video. I mean really that touched me incredibly and that I think that there are a lot of victims here regardless of what ends up happening with
your lawsuit. Thanks a lot for taking the time. We appreciate you coming on.
GOODNOW: Thanks for having me, Dan.
ABRAMS: Next, he who represents himself is a fool for a client you`ve heard that including one fool who thinks he can play lawyer because he watches
"Law and Order". Yes seriously, my take on TV law after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:55:00] ABRAMS: My take. Picture this. A guy charged with murder. The allegation is that he held a couple at gunpoint demanding the return of a
stolen gun. Victim allegedly tries to run in defending shoots and kills. But here is the twist, this guy knows a thing or two about the legal system
because well he`s watched trials on TV including even multiple episodes of "Law and Order."
So, Leon Tyson, 28 of Indiana did what any egomaniacal fatalist might do and decided to represent himself. Yes, despite the judges warning of
potentially apocalyptic results, he insists on playing lawyer. Not covered trials for a long time, seeing numerous people represents themselves, some
more confidently than others but the vast majority at the time these trials quickly become absurd.
I remember in one case where the defendant asking a series of questions to a victim and that victim, a witness interrupts him and says, you mean when
you were shooting at me? That`s not to say it never works. A New Jersey man won an acquittal in 2011 representing himself in a multiple murder case but
that is beyond unusual.
Abe Lincoln famously said anyone who represents himself is a fool for a client but he also may just have the desire for a speedy verdict and a long
sentence; although, Loni you say that there are reasons for someone to represent himself?
COOMBS: There actually are because somebody who represents themselves. In prison, they get special privileges. They get to go to the library, they
get pen and paper and usually the judge because it`s such a pain in the butt for the judge and the prosecutor, the judge assigns him a defense
attorney who covers the legal issues and then they`re standing up arguing straight to the jury...
ABRAMS: Do you have -- you`ve had a lot of people - a number of people when you were prosecutor represent themselves?
COOMBS: Some, some yes. And then they connect with the jury that become a real person. So, that person that`s sitting over the corner they`re talking
to the juries...
ABRAMS: Did you lose any of these cases?
COOMBS: No.
ABRAMS: OK, no, no I mean...
COOMBS: Oh, my goodness.
(LAUGHTER)
ABRAMS: I mean it just sounds crazy.
COOMBS: No, but they do connect with the jury in a way that obviously if they`re not talking to and they can`t
ABRAMS: Yodit and you say it`s really hard for a lawyer when someone is representing themselves because...
TEWOLDE: As a former prosecutor...
ABRAMS: ...part of, yes.
TEWOLDE: ...it was most painful process to go through. Because they don`t know what they`re doing and you`re sitting there and you`re saying, I wish
they could just keep it going.
ABRAMS: And a lot of times what happens is they stop representing themselves and then the lawyer sitting in the background takes over.
TEWOLDE: Absolutely.
ABRAMS: All right, we`ve got to go. See you next time. Thanks for watching. I`ll be here tomorrow night. Nancy Grace is next.
[20:00:00]
END
