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Dr. Drew
Woman Strangled, Stuffed into Suitcase; Doctor Accused of Using Own Sperm to Inseminate Patients; Teacher Under Fire for School Photos. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired September 14, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . it hits me all the time that I miss Christina so bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: A 21-year-old woman found strangled, her mutilated body stuffed in a suitcase, and then dumped outside a hotel. Joshua Palmer
who had worked with the victim is charged with her murder. Witnesses say a night of group sex may have thrown Palmer into a jealous rage. Watch this.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 32-year-old Joshua Palmer, the man accused of killing a female co-worker, then stuffing her body into a suitcase.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was zipped up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s a beautiful 21-year-old, Shauna Haynes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sweetest girl ever. She was so loving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chelsea Shea told the court that she, Joshua Palmer, along with the victim, 21-year-old Shauna Haynes, and another man, Anthony
Kern, all took part in a group sexual encounter. Cell phone video and photos were discovered on the suspect`s phone showed a nude woman`s
lifeless and mutilated body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Sara Azari, criminal defense attorney; Loni Coombs, attorney; Jena Kravitz, neuropsychologist; and Jason Mattera,
correspondent, Crime Watch Daily. Jason, what do we know about this case and this group sex thing?
JASON MATTERA, CORRESPONDENT, CRIME WATCH DAILY: Well, according to one of the witnesses, Chelsea Shea, this is what went down that evening. Chelsea
and Joshua were having drinks at the bar. They go back to his hotel room. They start having sex. They`re interrupted by Shauna and a guy named
Anthony, who arrived at the hotel room, then -- then they start having sex.
Chelsea decides to join them because I guess why not. While this is all happening, she says that Joshua is just watching, doing nothing, just
staring over them watching, he gets really upset, kicks them all out except for Shauna.
The next morning, he calls police and says that his girlfriend went missing. Now, when detectives go and interview him, they notice that his
knuckles are red. But according to Joshua, he did participate in a group sex, it was one big foursome.
They were loaded on cocaine and then Shauna left by her own accord and was wearing nothing but a blanket. Here`s the important thing to note, though.
The toxicology report shows that there was no drugs in Shauna`s system.
PINSKY: And we have what one of the witnesses happen during that night. Take a look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
CHELSEA SHEA, WITNESS: He couldn`t get hard. So we just watched. They told me to join in with them. So then I started having sex with Shauna and Tony.
So later on, he had texted me saying that he hooked up with Shauna and that she said, she didn`t want -- she didn`t want to fall in love with him, so
she was going to disappear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Loni, this just doesn`t look good for him. There`s a lot more.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Right. There`s a lot of cover-up done by him after the killing. One of the stories he told her right there was that, you know,
the victim decided that she was going to fall in love with him. She didn`t want to, so she would take off.
He also took the victim`s phone and wrote text messages to the victim`s family and friends making excuses for what happened to her. He told another
person another story. He told another person that she left wearing a blanket and, you know, with blood coming out of her nose because she had so
much cocaine.
So there`s a lot of cover-up afterwards. And then he stuffs her body into a suitcase and dumps it. He cleans his apartment. There`s a lot of evidence
showing that he did this, and that it was intentional and premeditated.
PINSKY: And we have text messages recovered from Josh`s phone the night she died. Here`s 2:20 a.m., OMG, it just turned into a foursome, and then 20
minutes later, 2:50 a.m., I`m sorry, I love you. I accepted my place as a friend, but I can`t watch you make love to someone else. I know it`s
selfish, but I can`t take it. I`m not good enough, but two total strangers are? It just destroyed me.
Jena, I mean -- this is.
JENA KRAVITZ, NEUROPSYCHOLOGIST: This is the ultimate jealous rage.
PINSKY: Yeah.
KRAVITZ: . and it`s corroborated later when we hear the reports about how he was touching her and I think penetrating her while she was unconscious
or dead by that point.
PINSKY: Well, I got cops indicated they may have the cell phone video showing him having sex with her dead body as you say, Jena. But this feels
like -- jealous rage is one thing, but then this is so out of control. So crazy. Isn`t it?
KRAVITZ: It is. But generally, people that want to have sex with people who are unconscious or dead are doing that because they don`t get any
resistance and they don`t feel rejected. And this is a guy who so clearly felt rejected, based on his text message that she wanted to have sex with
other people and not him. So, it`s not so surprising that he`s touching her when she`s unconscious.
PINSKY: And then we have an, oh, maybe she`s dead. That`s sort of weird. I mean, right, if you`re unconscious, that`s one thing. We have another text
he sent her after weeks before -- just a few weeks before her death. I`ll show you a reenactment. Take a look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
[19:05:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never wanted anything more in my life than the way I want you. You don`t want me, I get it. It hurts because I`m
so much better than the other people in your life. It`s total rejection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And then after she was dead, Jason told us he texted her family from her phone making them think she was still alive. He called 911 and
reported her missing. The detectives said as Loni told us, he wiped everything down. All right Sara, time for the defense to come in. Looks
like an easy mop up for you.
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No -- no, listen, I think that the jealous rage is what I`m fixated on. I think this is more a voluntary
manslaughter case because absolutely.
PINSKY: Wait -- wait -- wait, Loni, why do you shriek at that?
AZARI: Yeah, because -- because -- because he couldn`t stand watching her having sex with these other people. And also, a woman whose into four --
I`m not blaming the victim, but a woman.
PINSKY: But here you go.
AZARI: But, yeah, but sorry. But a woman who`s into foursomes and this sort of promiscuous sexual activity, it could very well be that she`s into
strangulation.
COOMBS: No, no, no.
AZARI: . that she was into sex penetration with an object, it could be sex toys, but Loni, a defense attorney has.
PINSKY: But what about her death?
AZARI: That could be an accident. In the course of having rough sex, she could have died. And I think a good defense attorney for him, for Palmer,
has to absolutely explore her sexual history with him, her sexual history with other people...
COOMBS: No.
AZARI: Maybe this is -- maybe she wanted to be choked. Loni, some want to be choked when they have sex.
COOMBS: The important thing is her sexual relationship with this guy which was zero. I mean, she was very clear, and he was very clear. She didn`t
want to have sex with him. In fact, she moved in and he said, if you`re not going to start having sex with me, you have to move out. Now, it`s so
convenient, yeah, she was into sex with him and she was into strangulation.
AZARI: There`s also evidence that they had sex before. If that evidence proves to be correct, then, you know, I think she`s one of those girls who
wants them in the friend zone, which is a friend with benefits, where she`s sleeping with him but doesn`t want him to be a boyfriend.
COOMBS: Look at the text. Look at the text. She has fixated on the fact that she does not want to have sex with him. He said it two weeks before,
he said it that night, you walk in, you`re having sex with those two people. You won`t have it with me.
I mean, that is anger that is building up over time. This is somebody thinking about it and thinking about it, and then that night, he strangles
her. You know strangulation is up close, it`s personal, and it takes a period of time to actually kill somebody that way.
That`s plenty of time for him to think about it, and to know what he`s doing intentionally. That`s not a rage killing, that`s a first-degree
murder.
PINSKY: Well, Jason, help me settle the score here. You know this case inside and out. Help.
MATTERA: Well, it`s also the cover-up after the fact the misleading text messages. He is trying to wipe down the apartment, to deceive the police
officers. So I think once you take that -- then discarding her in a trash bin, stuffing her into a suitcase. So, listen, I think it does on the
surface of look like a first-degree murder, not a manslaughter case.
PINSKY: I love the outrage in our defense attorney. Thank you, Sara. We all heard Jodi Arias. You know, we understand stuff can be happening, go wrong,
and people do strange things, but this feels like much more. Hang on, because I`ve got more video evidence coming, which still further does not
help the accused.
And later, how sexy is too sexy for an elementary schoolteacher? Social media seems to have an answer about her appearance. Back after this.
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 21-year-old`s beaten body was discovered stuffed in a suitcase.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s the garbage can behind a building.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two days later, 32-year-old Joshua Palmer, who friends say Shauna had been dating for the last several months, was arrested for
her murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She may have been dead already by some natural cause when she was put in there.
NANCY GRACE, TELEVISION HOST, JOURNALIST, COMMENTATOR: Call 911 or, no, go grab your roller board, fold the body up, and zip the hair up and put it up
out by the trash?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joshua Palmer accused of strangling his co-worker, 20-year-old Shauna Haynes, then stuffing her body into a suitcase. Nancy described it
very well there. Witnesses say a night of group sex may have thrown this young man, Palmer, into a jealous rage.
Back with Sara, Loni, Jena, and Jason. I`m sure you want the cell phone video. This was played in court, recorded a few hours before Shauna`s body
was found. Take a look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
JOSHUA PALMER, ACCUSED OF KILLING SHAUNA HAYNES: I just slit my wrist. I`m using this moment or two that I have to say goodbye. To say I`m sorry. I
let a lot of people down. I tried to be good. I wasn`t good enough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Jena, there we go. So we have this guy that was enraged, he sounds intoxicated in that -- in that little video or whatever that was
recording. He attempted suicide. I mean, this is.
KRAVITZ: He sounds like a borderline.
PINSKY: Well, explain what that is. A borderline.
KRAVITZ: Well, he`s got -- he`s got these labile moods. He is threatening suicide and sort of attention type of behavior. He is just -- but on top of
all this, he -- he obviously has poor self-esteem. I think that he fantasized about doing this.
In a way, he did it, put her in a suitcase and left her in a trash can. I think if he want to get really complicated here, he himself feels like he
belonged to the trash can.
AZARI: That`s not somebody who fantasize. That`s somebody who`s panicked, who -- who suddenly realized that somebody`s dead as a result of whatever
they were engaged in, and he throws her in a suitcase, and put that -- I`m not saying the act is okay, but that`s not -- to me, that actually shows a
level of panic on his part.
KRAVITZ: And I think it reflects how he feels inside about himself.
PINSKY: Perhaps, Sara -- perhaps, Jena, you said you heard something from a police...
KRAVITZ: I did. I actually just watched a lecture from a police psychologist who talked about how he interviewed a hundred inmates who had
killed people, and out of a hundred people, admitted that they had fantasized about doing this before they actually done it. I don`t doubt
that this guy had fantasized about it given how rejected he felt.
PINSKY: Yeah, I mean, Loni, the amount of raw emotion in a man that is prone to suicide, who is using substances, who clearly got some -- some
characterological issues, I mean, that`s a dangerous alchemy (ph).
[19:15:00] COOMBS: Sure it is. There`s also reports that in his cell phone, the FBI uncovered not only the videos with this victim, but there was also
some other videos and photographs of him having sex with other unconscious women.
Now, that has yet to be, you know, proven and confirmed, but I`m hoping that law enforcement is looking into that to see if there are other victims
out there who have been attacked by him, assaulted by him, that they can also go after those charges as well.
AZARI: What happened to those women who haven`t come forward? They`re alive.
PINSKY: It is peculiar. I know...
COOMBS: Maybe they don`t know. Maybe they were unconscious and didn`t know. Maybe they`re afraid. Maybe, you know, there`s a lot of reasons why victims
don`t come forward. We know that.
PINSKY: And we have a text message from this young man that Shauna showed her friend, Shauna is the victim, a few weeks before she was murdered. Here
it is. If I can`t have you the way I want you, I`m afraid I`ll do something I regret. There it is.
KRAVITZ: He fantasized about it.
PINSKY: Your confession. And now we have a change in his overall body habitus too. Let me show you a side-by-side picture of how he looked when
he went to prison versus what he looks like now. He`s been in prison for a year.
Yeah, I mean, he really looks so profound, I mean, I guess being in prison for a year, you`re not going to be happy. Loni, my question is could he get
the death penalty?
COOMBS: That`s a good question. The special circumstances that were alleged here is that the murder occurred while he was raping by a foreign object,
rape by sodomy or while a rape was going on. That means the murder was going on while that was going on.
The defense has already argued, look, the video shows that he was doing those acts after she was already dead. So that that special circumstance
would not apply.
PINSKY: Wait a minute, they actually have video of all that?
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: Oh, my God.
COOMBS: That was on his cell phone, allegedly. The FBI uncovered these videos where he videotaped himself doing these acts on her. They said she
was dead at the time.
PINSKY: Jason, you have been covering this on Crime Watch. I mean, this seems like an extraordinarily, just an awful story, but it sort of -- I
don`t understand how there could be a defense for this.
KRAVITZ: He`s a necrophiliac.
PINSKY: Yes, it sounds like that. That hold constellation. But go ahead, Jason.
MATTERA: Yeah, I know. It`s hard to even ponder someone is capable of doing this. You know, to the death penalty point, I do think the prosecution
should go for it, not because I think that Joshua Palmer will ever be put to death, because he can be on death row for 40 years in California, and
nothing would ever happen to him.
But if he`s a death row inmate, his privileges and freedom within prison presumably saying, will be significantly eliminated or limited, and if he
is guilty and convicted of what they say he did, then that should be the scenario for him. Like an hour a day of sunlight for the rest of his life.
PINSKY: Sara, do you focus your defense on that death issue and really sort of take the, you know, the penalty and then really focus on what the actual
sentencing is going to be?
AZARI: Right. If -- if -- if this ends up being -- I mean, we`re all assuming this is going to be first-degree murder. But if this ends up being
a voluntary manslaughter, it`s a huge difference because he would only face 11 years in prison, and not even life. So, will not even a death penalty.
PINSKY: You`re not like the guy we were seeing in the Nancy Grace that thought, oh, she might have died of natural causes. A young 21-year-old
dying of natural causes with evidence of strangulation, what`s he talking about?
AZARI: Well, yeah, my point is, the circumstances with the foursome, and sort of -- it just makes me think that, you know, there is such thing as
rough sex.
PINSKY: Listen, what I will say -- what I will say is this. Which is that if you get yourself in extraordinary circumstances, feelings that emerge
can be unpredictable.
AZARI: Right.
PINSKY: . and you just don`t know what people`s liabilities are, when they get into these situations of no boundaries and potential for evoking very
powerful feelings even if it`s just you fall in love with somebody or just miserably rejected, whatever it might be.
This is why people need to stick with the basics and stay simple. The more complicated, the more extreme the circumstances, the more extreme the
results.
KRAVITZ: Yeah. And never make an impulsive decision when you`re highly emotional, right? That`s the moral of the story here.
PINSKY: Next up, a fertility physician uses his own sperm to, quote, help unsuspecting patients get pregnant. And later, a fourth grade teacher being
body shamed for her choice of clothing and how they fit. We`ll get into it after this.
[19:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Helping women get pregnant for years. Indianapolis doctor is accused of using his own sperm without his patients` knowledge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was unethical what he did. He was telling his patients one thing, and doing another.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That woman who we are not identifying says 77-year-old Dr. Donald Cline seen here leaving court is her biological father. The case
turned criminal, because in 2014, two of Dr. Cline`s donor children sent complaints here to the state attorney general`s office. Some of Dr. Cline`s
biological children now simply wish they knew how many siblings Dr. Cline produced with his own DNA.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know every sibling that I have. I don`t think that that is ever going to be a possibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And today, eight siblings have found each other. Dr. Donald Cline has denied using his own sperm yet court documents say he met six of those
siblings and admitted his sperm could have been used up to 50 times. Back with Sara, Loni, Jena, and Jason. Jason, you`ve got more background
for us. Tell me.
MATTERA: Here`s what we know, Dr. Drew. Out of the eight siblings who have found each other, there are six sisters and there are two brothers. They
were born in an eight-year time span of each other, starting in the late `70s going through the mid-`80s.
They uploaded their DNA results to commercial DNA sites, like ancestry.com, and that`s when they started to get these matches. But all they knew is
that they had the same father donor, at the same Indiana Fertility Clinic. So they sort of reaching out to the attorney general`s office, the clinic
itself, even the media trying to get more answers on who this DNA donor is.
Finally, two of the siblings got in touch with a local reporter who helped them cut through the bureaucratic red tape to get confirmation that the DNA
donor was actually a doctor at the clinic.
[19:25:00] PINSKY: And Loni, one of those siblings thought she had been an only child, but now she`s finding out she may have up to 50 siblings. Now,
how do you think this happened? A long time ago, like in the 70s. I mean, were things just that different 40 years ago?
COOMBS: Well, what the doctor has said, allegedly, is that he had a policy, he told these parents, look, as soon as you are ready, I will get a fresh
sperm sample within an hour from a medical resident and we`ll inseminate you.
But he said sometimes he wasn`t able to get it that quickly, and he felt pressure from that, he felt pressure because he knew these women wanted
these babies. And so he would just use his own sperm. And he didn`t tell anybody.
Now, why he never thought this might come up at some point in the future, I guess he wasn`t thinking long term. But he lied to the attorney general`s
office when they came and asked him about it. But he actually told the truth to these children who came to him.
And I don`t know if it was because it was a face-to-face meeting, if he has regrets. But he told them, yeah, I could be all of your fathers because I
did this about 50 times over the period of time that I was working there.
PINSKY: He told a reporter who broke the story that he didn`t believe he was fathering children, rather he saw it as helping, quote, devastated
families, devastated families, who could not conceive on their own. Jena, are you buying this?
KRAVITZ: Absolutely not. I mean, if this isn`t the ultimate narcissist, I don`t know what is. How many extensions of yourself can you have in the
world? That`s really where I think this came from. I don`t think it has anything to do with helping anybody.
PINSKY: Sara, you remember the T.V. show, The Nick? Sara, do you know that? They were doing anything they could to help people. Whatever seemed right
to them in the moment. And no one gave them any ethical guidelines. They were new fields of medicine. Can we give this guy any room for doubt?
AZARI: Well, two things on this. First of all, sperm fraud is not a crime. Okay? The issue here is that he lied to the attorney general`s office like
Loni said, and it`s obstruction of justice because of the, you know, he said emphatically he has never donated his own sperm.
But, you know, looking at it ethically, he`s a retired doctor. Obviously his medical license is going to be gone because he has made grave
misrepresentations to patients about what the source of this sperm is. But does he really care at age 77 that his medical license is going to be gone?
PINSKY: But it`s a criminal complaint here though, right?
AZARI: Right but it`s for obstruction of justice, it`s for lying to the attorney general`s office, not really lying to his patients, you know. And
so one of the things I also have to say is that -- and I don`t know if back in the day, it`s not like 2016 where you walk into a sperm clinic and you
have a choice of, I want blue eyes and brown hair, whatever it is.
But these women didn`t even as much as inquire as to where the sperm is coming from. All he would tell them is that it`s a sperm from a medical
student and they are like, bring it on.
KRAVITZ: You know what? He also, I mean, he ran a business, okay? So, if you think about someone who`s motivated to have a successful and lucrative
business.
AZARI: Jena, that`s my question. That`s another question I have is, back in the day, were people getting paid for sperm donations? Because if he
actually profited from those donations, this raises to another level of fraud.
PINSKY: I don`t think so. But Loni, what happened to the lies to the attorney general? What kind of punishment?
COOMBS: He`s facing five years in prison on those two felony charges. He`s an older man, that`s a significant period of time. Dr. Drew, I will say
this, a lot of people were doing this back at that time.
PINSKY: Really? A lot?
COOMBS: Not necessarily him. You know, the doctor giving this. When we were talking about sperm donors, people were going in, they didn`t really know
the background of these sperm donors, and they weren`t thinking about, hey, the same sperm donor could have fathered 1,000 children out there.
Those children could go on and end up dating each other and not know they`re siblings. There are a lot of ethical considerations that people
were not really thinking.
PINSKY: That`s what I`m wondering.
AZARI: He lied about it. He actually said, there`s only each sperm donor is only donating three times exactly. So that`s the issue is that, if he was
truthful about it, and if he got these patients to sign off on the hold harmless agreements, with informed consent, then that would be a different
story.
[19:30:00] PINSKY: Jason, it seems like there was sort of -- some sort of secrecy around who the donors were, that that was sort of part of the ethos
of what they were into at the time. I didn`t look at the medical literature from 40 years ago, but I`m wondering if it was just, you know, find -- find
a suitable healthy sperm donor, period. The rest of it was what really they were concerned with.
MATTERA: Yeah, I think the doctor clearly knows he was in the wrong, because he did apologize, it was told to all his new found children.
PINSKY: But I`m wondering if that`s a new sort of realization, that he realized, oh, my God, our ethical standards were completely warped. How
could I be thinking that way?
MATTERA: We don`t have any medical records, because he destroyed them all. Not for nefarious reasons, but because the State of Indiana only compels
you to keep up to seven years. And this happened 30 years ago.
But if he was telling these parents that he was getting it from a doctor within the clinical resident, and then he was going to the back room and,
you know, making the collection himself, I mean, that is clearly unethical. He was clearly lying.
KRAVITZ: There were ethical guidelines in place back then also.
PINSKY: There must have been some. I`m just wondering what they were. It`s a long time ago.
AZARI: Patient for sure unethical violation.
MATTERA: We do know this for sure that Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners, there`s got a whole lot bigger for these people.
PINSKY: And Sara, to your point, though, doctors routinely lie to patients, maybe early in this guy`s career, when they lied about whether you had
cancer, lied about whether you were dying. There was a paternalism that was profound 50, 60 years ago.
And lying was considered just taking good care of the patient. So who knows? It`s certainly not in my purview, or my sort of generation at all.
I`m as outraged as everybody else here. But I`m trying to look at historical prism and it`s hard to do that.
Next, what effect does all this have on this physician`s so-called children? Those who have now found out as adults that he is their father.
And later, what`s wrong with a teacher who looks nice and does a good job? Well, social media has plenty to say about that after this.
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A fertility doctor in Indianapolis is accused of secretly fathering the children of his patients?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Using a website 23 and me, several people found siblings linked to the same DNA from an Indianapolis doctor.
UNIDENTIFIEDEMALE: Dr. Cline always told his patients he used sperm from medical students during insemination. But according to court records, this
year Dr. Cline admitted to his donor children that around 50 times, he used his own sperm whenever he didn`t have a donor sample available, and he
added that he felt he was helping women because they really wanted a baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dr. Donald Cline has entered a plea of not guilty on two charges of obstruction of justice. Those charges stand from his original denial that
he had used his own sperm to inseminate these patients. Jason, is there anything new about the physician tonight?
MATTERA: Well, we do know that he retired from his medical practice seven years ago. Today, he`s 77 years old. According to a local news station, he
says he has asked God for forgiveness. But one of the children that he fathered, one of the children that he fathered states that it is, quote,
sickening that he was able to keep doing this for so long, and keep the secret going.
PINSKY: Jason, I find it interesting that it seems to be only the children complaining. What about the women that were inseminated? I would think they
would be even more a sense of violation.
MATTERA: Yeah. So far we`ve only heard from the children. You know, the silver line, if we can look for a silver lining in all this, is that you
have a bunch of siblings who didn`t know now they had extra siblings, and they seem to be coming together and treating each other as family during
this difficult time.
PINSKY: Sara, speaking of the children, what about back child support?
AZARI: Right. You know, they can certainly go to court and ask for back child support. But because there`s -- you can`t really use that hold
harmless agreement as a shield. Because in my opinion, it`s void. Because they didn`t know.
They didn`t know that it`s his sperm. I don`t think those agreements are going to pass muster. But is the court really going to order back child
support to 30-something-year-old adults from way back when?
PINSKY: Yeah. Loni, you think not?
COOMBS: Now we`re talking about inheritance when this guy dies. Now, how many children who can claim part of the inheritance? It really opens up
this Pandora`s box.
PINSKY: Oh, my gosh.
COOMBS: . a legal precedence that can be set here. We know this is probably not the only sperm donor who somehow, you know, didn`t follow through on
what he said he was doing. So there`s other potential cases out there now.
PINSKY: As it pertains to this hold harmless document, one of the siblings showed that in 1979, her parents signed a consent form that stated they
would never try to find any information about the donor. Is that what you`re talking about, Sara?
AZARI: Yes. But that`s because he told them, oh, it`s a medical resident who is giving you fresh sperm, you know. And he should have disclosed to
them that it`s his sperm.
Because maybe at that time, somebody who`s desperate to have children, who can`t otherwise have children, maybe at that time they wouldn`t mind that
it was his sperm. But the fact that they didn`t know, and they signed this agreement without that knowledge, to me, I think voids that agreement.
PINSKY: And Jena, you know, Jason looks at it from the positive standpoint of these people coming together, finding family. But there could be other
less positive impacts on these children.
KRAVITZ: I think there`s obviously less positive impact. I mean, this has a lot to do with identity, early attachment, you know, because he`s the
father and he did something so despicable, they might think I have these genetics now.
[19:40:00] PINSKY: A flawed sort of.
KRAVITZ: Exactly.
COOMBS: Or they might just look at this as a positive thing, you know, and say, look, I was raised by wonderful parents. I now have these siblings. I
mean, there`s a lot of positives, you know, in their lives. If they want to, they can focus on that.
MATTERA: The positive is that they were born.
PINSKY: Yeah.
MATTERA: They can look at it that way.
PINSKY: Yeah.
MATTERA: They`re alive.
KRAVITZ: But sometimes people who are going through this don`t sit back and look at the silver lining. Instead, they think about the things that are
wrong with them and how they were cheated out of knowing their biological father.
PINSKY: I would love to hear from the parents, particularly the mothers. Because they were sort of part of the spirit of that time in the way these
things were approached. If they were able to articulate that this was a profound disruption of what they thought was happening, that would be very
telling, Loni, wouldn`t it?
COOMBS: Sure. If they said, look, I would never have done this, you know, but I have a feeling that most of them probably would said, look, I was
thrilled to be able to have a child and to raise a child, that`s my child, and I`m glad for it.
PINSKY: Yeah. All right. Next up, a teacher named Teacher Bae, nickname, that`s her nickname, that`s right, she`s taking heat for wearing tight
clothing. Is this anyone`s business? Particularly social media`s? Back after this.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, is this woman too sexy as she is dressed to teach? Patrice Brown is a fourth grade teacher in Atlanta. She posed for these photos at
the start of the new school year. Her looks rather and her figure have earned her the nickname Teacher Bae. But some parents don`t think it`s
funny.
They want Miss Brown to choose an outfit that is for more appropriate they say for elementary school. Now, I`m back with Sara, Loni, and Jason.
Joining us, Spirit, psychotherapist. So Spirit, is Miss Brown -- I really - - I`m upset about this story to tell you the truth. I`ll ask you a simple question, is Miss Brown as presented too sexy for grammar school?
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right now, I`m curious, why are you upset, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Because I think they`re needlessly body shaming this woman. By the way, if there`s some dress code violation, then pull her aside and advise
her on a dress code if she is assigned a dress code. Otherwise, leave her the hell alone.
SPIRIT: Okay. Let me say we are going to vehemently disagree on this, believe it or not.
PINSKY: All right. Go ahead.
SPIRIT: I don`t think this has anything to do with body shaming. I think that she is gorgeous, gorgeous. But as I have said, what she does after
2:30, all right. Go ahead, high five. She deserves that for being as beautiful as she is.
But when you are in a classroom setting, where you are hypersexualized, the nonverbal communication that many of her outfits -- and these are just some
of them that we`re seeing. I`ve actually seen her Instagram, so I understand that this is not just about what happened in the classroom, but
this is what happens outside of the classroom, too.
Because she is an educator, she is responsible for teaching our children, not just the academic lessons but the moral lessons as well.
AZARI: No, actually, I think she`s teaching the girls -- first of all, these are grade schoolers. These are not boys at the peak of puberty. Okay,
first of all. Secondly.
SPIRIT: Are you kidding me?
AZARI: She`s a great example for the girls in their classroom to be proud of their God-given bodies. What`s wrong with her? Her collar`s up to here.
Her breasts are not out. Her butt cheeks aren`t hanging out. She is, no, come on.
SPIRIT: Sorry. When every curve is accentuated and everything says look at me, look at me, what she`s teaching those girls that their body is what
they`ll be judged by, and not what is happening on.
PINSKY: All right. I`ve got to get Jason in. Jason is smiling and nodding. What`s going on, Jason? You want her as your teacher, I know that.
MATTERA: Yes. I wish I had.
SPIRIT: And so does every father.
MATTERA: . this teacher. I wish I had her -- I would be there in the front row. Getting attention. I would stay after class. No doubt about that. But,
I mean, the serious point here is that if you are in charge of teaching fourth graders, probably, I`m going to go out on a limb here, probably your
clothes should not be so tight that we can see your bra and your thong line. Just making a point.
PINSKY: In fact, she did sign -- there was an agreement about dress code that did talk about tight clothing. And fine, okay. So pull her aside and
give her some advice, or whatever action they need to take. Loni, I`ll show you a tweet. I`ve got a bunch of interesting tweets on this one. If a black
woman has a curvy body body, she`s immediately judged and sexualized for something she has no control over, Loni.
COOMBS: I find it interesting. I think if she was overweight or if she was stick thin and she was wearing these same clothing, nobody would be saying
anything. It`s clearly because, you know, it`s a sexualized thing. People are seeing it that way.
I just have to say, I -- maybe they`re a bit tight, but I don`t think that there`s anything wrong with a strong confident woman who is wearing close
up to here and down to her knees. Nothing is hanging out.
She`s a teacher. She`s an educator. She`s a nurturer. I think that`s a great role model for young boys and young girls to say, look, we have a
very feminine confident woman and we can see her as something besides a sex object.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Sara?
(CROSSTALK)
MATTERA: People on social media are certainly busy bodies and they`re making observations. But that doesn`t mean those observations are
incorrect. We do have impressionable young people, and it`s how this teacher carry -- not just how she teaches, I`m sure she`s a fine teacher,
but it`s also how she carries herself.
(CROSSTALK)
[19:50:00] MATTERA: I think we`re in a hypersexualized culture where young people are bombarded with images of sexuality all the time. They shouldn`t
be bombarded when they`re also in the classroom. I think it`s reasonable to say this teacher possibly should get an outfit maybe one size larger. This
is not body shaming. It is body.
PINSKY: Hang on. Do we have the picture with it? I want to show you something. Somebody just tweeted me. Pretty hard to get these up. This is
the same dress on three different women, right. Same dress, same fit, and the teacher is in the middle, that`s Teacher Bae in the middle, but women
just have different body types and yet we`re reacting to the one in the middle. That`s the same fit, same dress, all three women.
AZARI: And follow to what Loni said.
SPIRIT: It doesn`t matter. It`s about knowing.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Spirit.
SPIRIT: It`s about knowing your body and dressing for your body. The fact of the matter is that -- oh, no, hear me, no, that`s not true because what
is appropriate for some people in some areas that you`re seeing, what`s appropriate on a size zero is not appropriate and looks the same on a size
16 or size 8 when you`re hips are this large and your waist is this small.
AZARI: I think it sends a message across that a woman who is sexy, whose maybe voluptuous, and is attractive and owns it, that`s not mutually
exclusive to being a professional and being great at what you do whether it`s a teacher, a doctor, a lawyer, whatever it is.
PINSKY: I have -- I have another tweet.
SPIRIT: I disagree.
PINSKY: It`s from Kenneth. I think if you click on his Twitter handle, it is Jason M. If I would have had a teacher that looked as good as Teacher
Bae, I`d have gotten into Ivy League School. Way to go, Jason. So, let`s take a little break. We got a lot more to get into this. We`ll be right
back after this.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Hey, Jason, before we get back to the Teacher Bae story, you have a big story tonight on Crime Watch Daily. Tell me about it.
MATTERA: We do. We have an Iowa teacher who was busted having sex with a student at her high school. She subsequently was fired and given a court
order not to have any contact with the student. But our cameras, Dr. Drew, catch the student and the teacher at a place called Woody`s. It`s a strip
club where the former teacher now works. We got it all on camera.
PINSKY: Is she a stripper? What is it? Is she is like a waitress?
MATTERA: She`s giving lessons to much older people now.
PINSKY: Did she dress appropriately in her classroom setting?
MATTERA: Well, let me tell you, she has no body like the Atlanta teacher.
PINSKY: Teacher Bae. It`s so weird to me that this woman, this teacher, this woman typically that do this keep pursuing these people even with the
terrible consequences and obvious transgression they have engaged in. Patrice Brown, let`s get back to her. She is too sexy for school. Some
parents say her outfits are inappropriate for a teacher particularly fourth graders.
Back with Sara, Loni, Jason, and Spirit. Here is a photo from Miss Brown`s Instagram. So, why are we more focused on what she wears? She makes this
issue too, Loni, and not what she does in the classroom.
COOMBS: Right. Exactly. And I find it interesting that until social media stirred this whole controversy up, there was no report that anyone was
complaining about what she was wearing. In fact, she had won Teacher of the Month Award where she posted proudly on her Instagram.
So, apparently, the people that are really complaining about this are the people on social media who have to find something to talk about. Now, they
did post, the school did post this after this all stirred up.
We don`t know when this actually happened, when she was given this guidance, and they`re not saying that there have been complaints so that
they had to, you know, punish her in any way. So, I just think that we all need to step back and let her teach. Let her do what she is doing.
PINSKY: And also let her adjust now that she has been counseled by the school. You saw on that full screen we had, they taken their side and said
there are some guideline here, let`s follow them. Now, Spirit, she has been posting an awful lot on Instagram. Those posts were not exactly helpful. Do
you see any problem there?
SPIRIT: No, not at all.
PINSKY: Yeah.
SPIRIT: Not at all. You know, at the end of the day, no one is talking about her ability to teach. What we are talking about is what message does
this send to children? People are concerned about, no, it doesn`t. What it sends is a hypersexualized attention seeking behavior and that is rewarded.
We have to be careful at the age of these children because children are impressionable. It is not about her, it is about what she sends to others
that she is charged to teach.
PINSKY: Jason, do you think the women, the moms are more upset than the dads? It just seems like a lot of complaining was coming from the women.
MATTERA: Yeah, I don`t think that dads are complaining. They are probably volunteering now for parent-teacher conference. Listen, at the end of the
day, when you`re teaching fourth graders, you shouldn`t dress like you`re auditioning for a Kanye West music video. I think that goes without saying.
PINSKY: Miss Brown did say she gave a quote, I wish they would respect me and focus on the positive and what truly matters which is educating the
children of the future generations and providing care for them. Sara?
AZARI: Right. I absolutely agree. I mean, she does agree to her job as a great teacher and I think Loni is correct. It`s these women who are on
social media who are either hating on her attractiveness or her body and, or don`t want their husbands to go to school and pick up thee kids and see
her.
PINSKY: And again the quality that people feel on social media when they start forming into an angry mom. Here we go again.
SPIRIT: But emotional well being is just as important. Psychological well being is just as important as intellectual well being.
PINSKY: Spirit, I get your -- I think we all get your concern and we`re glad she was counseled. I hope she adjust her clothing accordingly. And I`m
sorry that, you know, that she has.
[20:00:00] SPIRIT: She`s gorgeous. Go be gorgeous after hours.
PINSKY: There you go. Thank you all for watching. Thank you, panel. Great job. We will see you next time. Nancy Grace is up next.
END
