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Dr. Drew
Heroin Overdose Cases Examined; JonBenet Ramsey`s Brother Speaks about the Night of Her Murder; Gay Rutgers Student Committed Suicide in 2010 After Being Spied on by Roommate
Aired September 15, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police in Ohio released these jarring images.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It shows a man and a woman passed out in the front seats of a car, and there in the back is a child.
DREW PINSKY, Dr. Drew ON CALL SHOW HOST: It`s not like this is something unusual. This is just what the police are dealing with all day long.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They look dead. They`re turning blue. And the police decided to release it again for public awareness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tens of thousands are addicted to heroin. This is what it looks like. That`s the appearance of it in real life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Photo was taken after an officer saw the car rolling down the road before stopping in the middle of the street. Paramedics administered Narcan
which is the blocking agent that reverses the heroin, so both woke up, survived. The boy in the back is the woman`s grandson. She had custody of
the boy, but now the child is living with his great-aunt.
Joining me, Anahita Sedaghatfar, attorney; Kurt Schlichter, attorney; Shelly Sprague, she herself a recovering heroin addict, she is the program
director of the Bel Air Treatment Center; and Spirit, psychotherapist. Now, Kurt, some people are upset that the police posted that picture. I cannot
understand why.
KURT SCHLICHTER, ATTORNEY: Nor can I, Dr. Drew. Look, it`s about time that we get real about opiates. There are a lot of people out there who don`t
know what they are, who don`t understand the effects they have, and I think we need to show people.
I don`t think we need to scream and yell. I think that picture says a thousand words. Showing photos like that is a public service.
Congratulations to those police officers, doing a great job.
PINSKY: Shelly, any disagreement?
SHELLY SPRAGUE, RECOVERING HEROIN ADDICT: Well, I wish that pictures like this had a real impact on addiction, but I think showing these photos is --
is something that isn`t going to really help the addicts, specifically, because this.
PINSKY: Shelly.
SPRAGUE: . it`s such an epidemic and a disease.
PINSKY: Shelly, I agree with you like that though that couple is not affected by their picture having been sent out there. You will agree,
Shelly, whenever somebody is ashamed or embarrassed, they get more defensive and more likely to act out, right?
SPRAGUE: Right.
PINSKY: But perhaps somebody who is going down the road sees those pictures then goes, oh, I better do something before I get to that point. Possible?
SPRAGUE: I -- I wish that that would...
PINSKY: Yeah.
SPRAGUE: . help people, but the only thing that helps addiction is real treatment.
PINSKY: Yeah, you`re right. Spirit, you have a point too.
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yeah, because I think that it`s bigger than that, Dr. Drew. I think that this is about educating the general public. Because
so many people have no idea what addiction looks like.
PINSKY: Right.
SPIRIT: . and this is bringing something from the back alleys to the main streets. This is a grandmother and her grandson and a grandfather, and that
make it real for people. And so if we look at people that look like us, that look our families to say, wait a minute, something has to be done.
Then hopefully the legal system will catch up with the mental health community and the public abroad, and we can finally do something about
substance abuse in this country.
PINSKY: I think that`s a good point, and also, if people are prescribed opiates, maybe they`ll be a little more circumspect when they walk out of a
doctor`s office or fiscal appeals. Anahita, this kid is bouncing from one family member to the next. Do they need to place him somewhere?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: My heart goes out to this kid. Yes, I believe that he will be scarred for life because of this, and God knows
what else he`s been exposed to. He`s four years old, and he`s been removed from his mother, his father, they`re drug addicts and then he was only with
his grandmother for six weeks and this happened.
So, I`m wondering why did everyone -- actually, everything failed him.
PINSKY: Yeah.
SEDAGHATFAR: Did they not properly vet this grandmother?
PINSKY: Or they didn`t have any other option.
SEDAGHATFAR: He needs to be in a loving home, and I just hope that he gets the love and protection he needs and he can heal from this, because this
will definitely scar him for life.
PINSKY: And Shelly, when this kid at 15 picks up a beer or a joint or meth or whatever, and people go, why did he pick this up in the first place if
he`s genetically prone, the ball will get rolling, but this kid will have no chance of A, getting -- be trusting people to give him other input other
than what he himself experiences, and B, if he feels better from using a substance, there`s going to be no stopping him.
SPRAGUE: Absolutely. And unfortunately, this is an epidemic and the fact is, is that we need to do something on every level, the mental health
level, the legal system, the incarceration rate. We need to hit this from every single angle, and this is, you know, thank goodness for Narcan or
these people would not have survived.
PINSKY:: You know, I was thinking, Kurt, about the arc of the opioid epidemic in the country and I`m remembering back 15 years ago when pain
became the fifth vital sign. That as a doctor, we had to put the blood pressure, the pulse, the temperature, and then the pain -- pain level,
because we were in legal hot water if we didn`t treat every and every single little pain the patient had. That`s when the horse get out of the
barn.
SCHLICHTER: I -- I think you`re right, Dr. Drew. Now, we have to balance it. Now, recently and we talked about it, I -- I had a kidney stone and I
had my first experience with opiates.
PINSKY: Do you like it?
SCHLICHTER: No, I didn`t. And we talked about.
PINSKY: Shelly, can you imagine that?
(LAUGHTER)
SCHLICHTER: Some people just don`t like it and I wonder those less people.
PINSKY: Me too.
SCHLICHTER: That`s why I feel so strongly about how we have to be very, very careful about how we prescribe opiates, how we give them to people.
Look, if you want this stuff, you`re inclined to have a problem. I feel blessed. It made me feel terrible. It got rid of my pain, but otherwise,
yeah, I didn`t want anything to do with it.
PINSKY: Now, the woman in the picture, her sister expressed some concern that police had posted the picture. Here is what she told NBC News, quote,
the city of East Liverpool humiliated my family and humiliated that little boy. They could have blurred his face and they didn`t. We have blurred it
but the police didn`t.
And now they`re taking him away from my sister. I`m not condoning that Rhonda done, but what they did to her and what they`re doing to her
grandson is too much. Anahita, does she have a point about what has happened to the little boy in the public.
SEDAGHATFAR: No.
PINSKY: . we are trying to -- trying to protect him from what the police did. Go ahead.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yeah, I agree with the police posting. I think it is necessary for people to see what addiction really looks like and when I saw that, I
thought of you, Dr. Drew, because you talked about how addiction can be so profound. And I`m thinking if that`s profound, that people can`t even
refrain from doing this drug around their children, like the drug is actually more important than the life and safety of a child.
PINSKY: Yup.
SEDAGHATFAR: ... and their care and custody. And so yes, I feel like they did the right thing. Maybe people do need to be humiliated. It`s not just
about punishment. No, I mean, maybe that is a wake up call. Maybe this will save the life of this grandmother and her boyfriend or whoever that was.
PINSKY: Shelly, what do you think?
SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t disagree with the decision.
SPRAGUE: You know, it`s just not my experience that shame or humiliation work on addicts. By the time they`re in that situation where they can`t
even make judgments, that or even remotely in the best interest of the child, they`re so far addicted that they need in-patient treatment long-
term.
And if they just -- if they showed these pictures, it`s not going to be nearly enough to really help them or anyone in that situation. I wish that
it was different but it isn`t.
PINSKY: Spirit, the -- the mom, we are not talking about the grandmother, but the mom was, I think, a cocaine addict for what I remember she`s
saying, she is not doing drugs now. Kurt, are you shock?
(CROSSTALK)
SCHLICHTER: How bad is this family if, you know, grandmother smacked in the passenger seat is the best option. Look, drugs don`t just affect the
addict, they destroy families, they destroy communities, we are seeing that.
And we need to combine effort. We need to combine effort involving rehabilitation for these addicts and punishment for their crimes because
what these people did with that child driving around intoxicated around a little kid, that`s a crime. They need to be held accountable.
PINSKY: I`m sure they will. The man was subjected to DEY (ph). Spirit, one quick -- I got amount of time, but very quickly. The mom says she is not
doing drugs anymore. Is that sufficient to allow them to get the child back into her custody?
SPIRIT: No. We need random drug testing for a significant period of time before that is even a consideration in addition to parenting classes and
support.
PINSKY: Yeah, there you go. Sadly, there are lot of cases like this. And these parents were arrested for heroin use. We are showing you here outside
McDonald`s. Of course, the baby was in the car.
And later, JonBenet`s brother got another bomb about the night his little sister was murdered. We`ll be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was from Wisconsin. This happened in March but this video was just released. First, you see those two people slumped over
in their car. They had overdosed on heroin. There was a toddler in their car. And then you see this emergency crews rushing in and out of the car,
pulling them to the ground, and in fact saving their lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This Wisconsin couple passed out from an opioid overdose, probably heroin, while the man`s toddler sits trapped in the backseat. Paramedics
saved their lives with Narcan. We learned the man eventually and unfortunately did die of his addiction across Labor Day. Again, suspected
overdose.
Back with Anahita, Kurt, Shelly, Spirit. And joining us via Skype, Judge Maryann Gunn, retired circuit and drug court judge. Judge Gunn, thanks for
joining us. What is your reaction to that video?
JUDGE MARY ANN GUNN, RETIRED CIRCUIT, DRUG COURT JUDGE: Drew, that video represents the bottom of the barrel for drug addict. As far as I`m
concerned, they -- those -- that mother, and I understand the man passed away later, that she needs to be in jail. Treatment first. She needs to be
in jail. And then that child needs to be protected. That is our focus, to protect the child.
PINSKY: And Judge Gunn, I`ve always admire your approach to drug courts and how you manage addicts in your courtroom. What`s your overall philosophy if
someone like that gets in front of you as a judge?
GUNN: Well, the first thing I`m gonna do is find out if she believes that she has hit the bottom. And if she really wants a treatment. I mean, a lot
of time, if the drug addict is not ready to change their lives, if she`s not ready and she does not want her child back, then she is going to go to
jail and she is not gonna make it through drug court.
Because it is very, very hard. That`s intensive outpatient, and sometimes inpatient treatment. It would be a long, long time before she got her child
back in front of me.
PINSKY: And Shelly, I see you`re nodding. It sounds harsh, but I think you and I both agree with Judge Gunn wholeheartedly.
SPRAGUE: Well, I believe that incarceration may save this person`s life.
PINSKY: Yup.
SPRAGUE: And if -- if that person isn`t ready for treatment and her life may be saved by being incarcerated and I feel like sometimes that`s what it
takes for people to get far and away from their last use to have some kind of clarity as to their situation and their addiction.
PINSKY: Police found about 200 pills in that man`s pocket. The baby was strapped in the car. The adults were passed out. People are amazed that
they had 200 opioid pills in his pocket. I`m telling you from my average patients, that`s four days` worth of his medicine if they`re taking only
pills. I see Spirit nodding. My average patients got 30-50 pills a day, some taking up to 200 a day.
SPIRIT: Dr. Drew, the other part of this is we have to remember that especially with the drug like heroin, there is a physiological need for
this. This is not just a person desiring to take this medication.
PINSKY: Yeah, they don`t want to just get high.
SPIRIT: After a certain period of time, right. They are sick if they don`t take it.
PINSKY: Shelly, you`re seeing much Fentanyl replacing oral opioid?
SPRAGUE: I`ve seen a lot of Fentanyl on the East Coast. I haven`t seen a lot of Fentanyl in Los Angeles from the West Coast at this point. But
Fentanyl has killed -- I think it was upwards of 50 people in maybe a week`s time on the East Coast.
PINSKY: Yeah, that sounds about right. In the North Carolina, these two got slam heroin in the McDonald`s parking lot. Their 3-year-old sat in the
back, allegedly. Cops found the pair passed out with 11 needles and several open bags of heroin in the car.
Anahita, how would you defend these people? You`re a defense lawyer. Is there a defense or do you go in there and hope, I hope that Judge Gunn sees
them and gives them -- you try to advocate for drug court?
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, there is a defense, and yes, you want to advocate that they get help. They need treatment. That is really rock bottom, Dr. Drew.
And another thing that I`m seeing now is we`re seeing a lot of states, and I`m a proponent of this, they`re passing good Samaritan laws, which stated
that if you`re in a car with someone or in a house with somebody doing heroin, you can call 911 and you`ll have immunity, you won`t be charged.
And that is to save someone`s life and also you`re required, then, to go get treatment within 30 days. So, I`m a proponent of that. I think that
could be a good start.
PINSKY: Kurt`s a law and order guy. Let`s see if we can get him -- we like the idea. I think all of us here, I just want to check with you though.
What do you think?
SCHLICHTER: No. Look, being an addict shouldn`t be a death sentence. Being an addict is partly criminal, but it`s also physiological problem, and we
have to treat it in both ways. We have to hold people accountable under the law, but we also need to look at treatment.
Because that`s the only way you`re going to rehabilitate these people. I mean, the other alternative is to throw them in jail forever. That`s not
going to happen and that would be unjust.
PINSKY: Spirit, I`m sorry, Kurt. Spirit, you want to come in here.
SPIRIT: I would say -- yeah, because what I want to say to your viewers too is don`t do what the natural inclination is which is to figure out how to
look at this and then separate yourself from this.
PINSKY: Yeah.
SPIRIT: . and figure out this has nothing to do with me. I want the viewers at home to realize that this is your neighbor. This is your child. This is
your spouse. Everybody, this is everyone`s issue, and we have to rally around this in order to kill this epidemic.
PINSKY: And Judge Gunn, I`ll let you have the last word. It`s a human condition. It`s a disease state. It causes people to behave illegally but
it`s ultimately a disease.
GUNN: Sure it is, but here`s what happens. Some people get on drugs and they get very, very violent. And they rape or kill someone. And then we put
them in jail for the rest of their lives because they are not ready, because they went too far.
And when you see a child in a car with all these hundreds of pills and syringes, those people have gone too far. And that`s why we have
termination of parental rights laws in every state in this country.
PINKSY: Good job, panel. Next up, JonBenet`s brother thought his sister was hiding the night she was found dead in their home. He has more to say about
that night. And later, new twist in the case of an outed gay teen who jumped off a bridge after his roommate spied on him. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
PATSY RAMSEY, JONBENET RAMSEY`S MOTHER: Police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s going...
RAMSEY: 755, 15th street.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s going on there, ma`am?
RAMSEY: We have a kidnapping. Hurry, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Explain to me what`s going on, okay?
RAMSEY: There we have a -- there`s a note left and our daughter is gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A note was left and your daughter is gone.
RAMSEY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How old is your daughter?
RAMSEY: Six years old. She`s blonde. Six years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How long ago was this?
RAMSEY: I don`t know. I just have a note. And my daughter is gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does it say who took her?
RAMSEY: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does it say who took her?
RAMSEY: I don`t know. It`s -- there`s a ransom note here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a ransom note?
RAMSEY: Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, what`s your name?
RAMSEY: Patsy Ramsey, the mother. Oh, my God. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, I`m sending an officer over, okay?
RAMSEY: Please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: An hour after Patsy Ramsey made that call to 911, JonBenet was found in the family`s basement. 20 years later, her brother, Burke, breaks
his silence with CNS T.V. Dr. Phil. Have a look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL MCGRAW, DR. PHIL SHOW HOST, CBS T.V.: Did you go to JonBenet`s funeral?
BURKE RAMSEY, JONBENET RAMSEY`S BROTHER: Yeah. Yeah, I remember the viewing. I remember the casket was small and her eyes were closed. I think
one of her eyes was a little bit droopy or something. I thought that was weird.
MCGRAW: How did you feel, seeing her?
RAMSEY: A lot of sadness. I don`t think I really fully grasped, like, after this, I won`t see her again.
MCGRAW: Was it traumatizing to see her?
RAMSEY: That was weird. That was traumatizing a little bit. Like I had ever been to a funeral before, period. I`m not sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anahita and Kurt. And joining us Beth Karas, investigative journalist, karasoncrime.com., she has been on this story
from the beginning. And Jim Clemente, retired FBI agent. He was the first investigator on the case. His show, the case of JonBenet Ramsey, premiers
Sunday night, September 18 on CBS. Now, Beth, some do speculate still that Burke did it. What do you say?
BETH KARAS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, I don`t know. People have had a lot of reaction to, at least, the first two parts that have aired of Dr.
Phil`s interview. They think that his demeanor -- he doesn`t present very well or very seriously. I don`t know what to make about that. But I -- I
don`t think that Burke did it, frankly. But others may beg to differ.
PINSKY: Jim, do you differ with that? He has that strange affect, that inappropriate smile. He seems to have some, you know, some interactive
social deficits of some type, but that doesn`t make someone a murderer.
JIM CLEMENTE, RETIRED FBI AGENT: I agree with you about that assessment, but you can`t do an entire personality assessment based on an interview.
You have to look at all the evidence in a case. You can`t really just jump to conclusions. That would be irresponsible.
PINSKY: 13 days after JonBenet`s murder, 9-year-old at the time, Burke Ramsey was interviewed by a psychiatrist who asked him to draw a family
photo. CBS T.V. Dr. Phil secured a video of that interview. Here it is.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
SUZANNE BERNHARD, CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s not a test of your drawing. It`s just so I get to know your family and stuff like that. So who`s next? Who
would you draw next?
RAMSEY: Mom?
BERNHARD: What do you like best about your mom?
RAMSEY: She`s nice and more.
BERNHARD: So, is your mom the kind of mom that gives lots of hugs and kisses?
RAMSEY: Yup.
BERNHARD: Both you and your sister or just you or just your sister?
RAMSEY: Just the both of us.
BERNHARD: That you are gonna talk or is that it?
RAMSEY: I was gonna draw me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Observations leaked to the press that suggested Burke showed little emotion and that he did not draw JonBenet, allegedly, because he had
already killed her. Jim, do you make anything of that?
CLEMENTE: I think that`s pure speculation about the because part of it, but it is unusual for a sibling not to draw their sister, even in the form of
an angel if she passed away. But again, one piece of evidence doesn`t mean a damn thing. You have to look at everything.
PINSKY: Anahita?
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, this was one of the most high-profile cases that we`ve seen. Okay, the authorities investigated this completely and
thoroughly, probably more than any other murder case because this was in the limelight. And they eliminated Burke. They eliminated the parents as
suspects.
There is no evidence linking any of these three individuals to the crime, so anything else that you`re hearing, at least in my opinion, I think it`s
speculation. I think it`s just conspiracy theories. I don`t give any weight to it. I think they had nothing to do with this murder.
PINSKY: Beth, is she right?
KARAS: Well, I think if you were to talk to some of the original detectives from the Boulder Police Department on this case, they would tell you that
they did not rule out the parents. Yes, Mary Lacy, the district attorney in 2008, did say the parents had nothing to do with this and she was
satisfied.
PINSKY: And no DNA. And no DNA, right?
SEDAGHATFAR: And someone else`s DNA, actually. That`s critical here is that they found another person`s DNA.
PINSKY: It could have been a salesperson apparently who sold the kiddie clothing.
SEDAGHATFAR: It could have been anything. It could really been anything.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Beth.
KARAS: The conduct of the parents initially was very suspicious. I mean, they were not the cooperative couple that they make people believe they
were. They were not giving the police what they wanted. The police were stone walled in trying to get simple things like cell phone records and
credit card reports. The DA wouldn`t sign off on that.
There was this wall between the DA`s office and the Boulder police because the DA thought it was an intruder or at least they were pursuing that
theory. Even though Alex Hunter would say individually to people in the office, I have -- it is my understanding that he thought Patsy was
involved.
PINSKY: Jim, is there anything to add to that?
CLEMENTE: Well, I think that there was definitely some politics that entered into this investigation that should never have been in this. This
was the murder of a six-year-old girl. Should have been completely devoid of politics.
And I think that did stymie the case in the beginning but also the fact that it started with as a kidnapping and then turned into a local homicide.
I think that also sent the direction of the investigation off on a wrong tangent.
PINSKY: Kurt, anything to add here?
SCHLICHTER: Oh, boy, Drew, when you look at a case like this, it seems pretty obvious. There`s no evidence of an intruder. This letter -- people
don`t kidnap for ransom like this. It`s somebody in the family. I mean, let`s Occam`s Razor this.
PINSKY: The amount of -- I love Occam`s Razor -- and the amount of the ransom was 118,000 dollars, which was the precise amount of the father`s
bonus for that year.
SCHLICHTER: How super convenient.
SEDAGHATFAR: It could have been somebody that knew that. I think it would have been stupid for the mother to actually write that down. It`s too
obvious, in my opinion, and as an attorney, I look at evidence.
There`s no evidence, no forensic evidence, no circumstantial evidence, there`s nothing that ties any of these people to the murder, and I think
it`s really sad that they`re being dragged.
PINSKY: We have to leave it. Kurt, hold up. We`ll have more in just a second. And later, update on the tragic case of a college boy who killed
himself after an intimate night had been exposed by his roommate. We`ll talk about it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
PATSY RAMSEY, JONBENET RAMSEY`S MOTHER: Here is a killer under loose.
JOHN BENNETT RAMSEY, JONBENET RAMSEY`S FATHER: Absolutely.
RAMSEY: I don`t know who it is. I don`t know if it`s a he or a she. But if I were a resident of Boulder, I would tell my friends to keep -- keep your
babies close to you. There`s someone out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was the first national interview given by Patsy and John Ramsey. It aired just weeks after their daughter, JonBenet, had been
murdered. Patsy`s demeanor in that interview raised some eyebrows, however.
John Ramsey was asked about it. Was it John Ramsey that was asked about it or the son was asked about it? Yeah, the son, John Ramsey was asked about
it by CBS T.V. Dr. Phil. The dad. Talk a look at this.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL MCGRAW, DR. PHIL SHOW HOST, CBS T.V.: You went on CNN with Patsy, and how did that go?
RAMSEY: That was the last thing that we wanted to do, but our friends were really pressuring us to do that. They saw this tide flowing against us, and
this swelling of suspicion, I guess, and they said, no, you`ve got to -- you`ve got to do an interview. You`ve got to go on television. You`ve got
to show who you are, and that will stop this.
MCGRAW: As you look back on that, was that a mistake?
RAMSEY: Yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It didn`t stop it. I`m back with Anahita, Kurt, Beth, and Jim. Jim, that interview was supposed to help, but it really didn`t, I guess. My
question, though, Jim, is, you know, we`re sort of all agreeing that probably not somebody in the family, but couldn`t it have been somebody
that knew the family well or somebody else they`re sort of covering up for or a business partner?
Somebody who could -- who knew about the 118,000 dollar bonus, who could get around that house at night in the dark. Is there any theory like that
out there or do we have to watch your special on CBS to find out?
CLEMENTE: Well, the whole point of it, it wasn`t just special. It was an actual re-investigation, staffed by, created by actual investigators, all
of us had worked the case at some point over the last 20 years.
And the fact is, I don`t agree with you that there`s no evidence pointing to the family. What I`m saying is there`s plenty of evidence pointing to
the family and outside the family. What we have to do is suss through it, find out what`s real, what`s not real, what`s relevant and what`s not.
PINSKY: I want to get Beth`s opinion on this too. You get what I`m asking, right?
CLEMENTE: Sure.
KARAS: I do. And I have never been satisfied that the police could not -- in the police investigation, not the DA, the police investigation could not
rule out the parents. They couldn`t get them out from under that umbrella of suspicion. Why didn`t they sit down with the police the way they sat
down with CNN on January 1, 1997? Days after JonBenet was murdered.
They did a controlled interview together. They were not ever separated by the police. That was one of the first mistakes. And -- and give -- and
questioned about what went on in that house and what they recall. They only spoke together. When they did talk to the police separately, it was, I
think, about a year later, the following April.
And again, they had plenty of time to get their stories straight. They had lawyers, they had PR machine around them. Their lawyers wanted the
questions in advance. The DA was agreeing for them to have the questions in advance, if they were going to be asked by the police. It`s ridiculous.
PINSKY: Now, Burke Ramsey, the brother, was asked about his mother`s behavior following JonBenet`s funeral. Here`s a clip from CBS T.V. Dr.
Phil.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: In the days after the funeral, as a 9-year-old, watching your parents go through this, were you concerned about your mother?
BURKE RAMSEY, JONBENET RAMSEY`S BROTHER: I don`t think I was thinking about it that in depth. I think I was just wanting people to be not sad and --
but she would cry and cry and then I think she would, like, maybe fall asleep or something and then she`d start crying again. They told me to come
upstairs and comfort her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anahita, what do you think of that answer? You`ve been actually really reacting, I see this, reacting to this guy`s affect.
SEDAGHATFAR: He does seem a little off. He does seem a little socially awkward. I get it, he`s smiling throughout the interview, but it kind of
makes sense to me. He was nine years old, Dr. Drew, at the time his sister was murdered. This played out for the entire world to see. His parents were
accused, he was accused. I would think that would have some type of mental impact or somehow traumatized him.
PINSKY: Yeah, you`re not reacting to a patient with a trauma sort of a construct here. You`re reacting to his sort of personality.
SEDAGHATFAR: His affect, his personality, but I don`t see how anyone watching that interview as weird as he is, can draw the conclusion that
that means he had killed his sister.
PINSKY: All right.
SEDAGHATFAR: So, I just don`t see any connection.
PINSKY: Fair enough. You`re looking for real evidence. Kurt, I`m going to play for you what Dr. Phil asked Burke Ramsey. He asked if the mom, Patsy,
was prone to rages. I want you to respond to it. Here it is.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: You cannot recall a time in your life that you ever saw your mother fly into a rage?
RAMSEY: No.
MCGRAW: Did you ever see her throw anything?
RAMSEY: No.
MCGRAW: Dishes, lamps, throw anything at your father?
RAMSEY: No.
MCGRAW: She wasn`t into corporal punishment?
RAMSEY: No, we didn`t get spank. Nothing near like laying a finger on us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I thought Phil did a very good job there the way he asked those questions because you have to drag it out of people sometimes. They don`t
see it as a rage or they don`t understand it as physical abuse but he said no.
SCHLICHTER: Look, his answers were noticeably different than his other answers. His other answers were, he`d have extended remarks. He`d elaborate
and go into detail. Here it`s no, uh-uh, nothing. That to me, as a lawyer, is somebody who cross examines for a living. When somebody starts doing
that on the stand, that`s when I hone in because he`s hiding something.
PINSKY: Anahita, is that evidence?
SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think so. I think he`s just answering the questions. There`s something off about him, Dr. Drew. I`m not quite sure that he`s
mentally competent. I don`t know how you would describe it. But it doesn`t imply guilt to me in any way, I think this is someone that either.
SCHLICHTER: I think it`s more deception.
PINSKY: It could be.
SEDAGHATFAR: Or I don`t think he`s bright enough, if I can say that, to even be deceptive. I think there`s something wrong with him. But that
doesn`t lead me to conclude that he`s hiding something or he had anything to do with this murder. I view it as trauma. That`s how I view it.
PINSKY: Well, this is not trauma. This is not trauma. But Beth or Jim, you guys have been re-investigating, reinvigorating the investigation. Is there
any information about what this affect, what his personality -- does he have Asperger? Is he high functioning autistic or something? Was anything
like that ever reported, either of you.
KARAS: I am not aware of anything, Dr. Drew. It does look like he presents with Asperger. He`s absolutely high functioning. He works in computers or
software, you know, design or something. So, he`s -- he`s pretty normal, but there`s something, you know, socially awkward about him.
PINSKY: Police in Boulder believe Patsy -- their theory was that she lost her temper after JonBenet had wet the bed in the middle of the night and
that Patsy`s then, the mom, violent outburst led to the murder. Here`s a clip here now from Dr. Phil on CBS T.V.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
RAMSEY: I haven`t heard the wet the bed sort of rage thing.
DAN SCHULER, DETECTIVE: What do you remember about that, about JonBenet wetting her bed or wetting her pants?
RAMSEY: I just remember she wet her bed.
SCHULER: What would happen when JonBenet would wet her bed? What would mom or dad do?
RAMSEY: Mom would change the sheets. And all that stuff. And dad wouldn`t really do anything. He had to go to work in the morning.
MCGRAW: Did JonBenet wet the bed?
RAMSEY: Yeah, I mean, you know, she wet the bed at six? I don`t remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jim, that whole theory does not pass the sniff test for me.
CLEMENTE: Well, you know, there is a type of offender, a female predisposed offender that can actually act out in this way, but you have to have a lot
of evidence to actually support that kind of a theory. People just jumping to the conclusions that this would happen.
I mean, 17 percent of all false allegations of child abduction come from bed wetting or potty training incident. But again, you have to have
evidence to support that theory. And we went through it in our documentary series if you want to know what we came up with, you`ll have to see it.
PINSKY: Sunday night, right? Is that correct, Jim?
CLEMENTE: That`s correct. Sunday and Monday nights on CBS.
PINSKY: We will look for it. Thank you, panel. Next up, a college student killed himself after his roommate recorded him in an intimate moment. Now
the roommate headed back to court. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In August of 2010, Tyler Clementi Dharun Ravi were paired as roommates at Rutgers University. They were strangers, but got
along well. In September, Clementi reportedly asked for private use of their room twice to spend time with a male visitor.
Prosecutors say Ravi and another student secretly set up a camera in the room to spy on the encounter and invited others to watch. There were
instant messages, texts, tweets, teenagers gossiping in this digital age. But for Tyler Clementi who had only recently told his parents apparently
that he was gay, the humiliation may have been unbearable.
A day after the second alleged spying incident, he jumped to his death from New York`s George Washington bridge. Tyler`s final goodbye also posted in
digital age method. Simple and sad. The Facebook post read, jumping off the GW bridge. Sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Four years after he had been committed for crimes related to Tyler Clementi`s suicide, Dharun Ravi`s conviction may have been tossed and he
will get a new trial. Back with Anahita, Kurt, Beth, and joining us, Erin Foster, psychotherapist. Beth, help me explain which accounts were thrown
out and why.
KARAS: Okay, first of all, he was charged with 15 counts. I was at his trial. Four of them are bias intimidation. That`s actually a sentencing
enhancement under New Jersey law but it`s charged separately.
Those were the charges that caused the reversal because three years ago, the New Jersey appellate court found that the bias intimidation statute the
way its written is unconstitutional.
Because one theory of bias intimidation looks at the effect of a person`s conduct on the victim, not the intent or state of mind of the defendant. So
it`s the perception of the victim, the humiliation of the victim. They said unconstitutional, you can`t have it.
The court in the Ravi`s case said we got to throw it out because the bias intimidation counts, the unconstitutional part, permeated the whole trial.
So, four counts are tossed out. Another count is tossed out, hindering prosecution, the court said should have been dismissed at the end of the
prosecution`s case.
He faces a retrial on ten counts, invasion of privacy, attempted invasion of privacy, tampering with evidence, but the state has 20 days to decide
and that 20 days is almost halfway over, to decide whether or not to appeal that.
PINSKY: Erin, it`s so interesting to me when I hear myself setting up this case. It was four or five years ago. And we`re talking about this digital
age. Now, the kind of misery that young people sort of fire at one another online is sort of routine.
Today, I reported on Paris Jackson becoming suicidal because of cyber abuse. It`s funny how this sort of history has moved on and these kinds of
phenomenon have become more common place, haven`t they?
ERIN FOSTER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s becoming normalized and that`s what concerns me is that now it`s something that is okay to do because you can`t
-- you can hide behind the screen. And now it`s okay to bully this way.
PINSKY: And Kurt, when defendants get these new trials, does it ever backfire? Could he face a worse punishment, ultimately?
SCHLICHTER: Well, look, he`s going to be retried for these things, so potentially I`m not a New Jersey lawyer, but potentially it`s possible.
It`s very interesting what they have done here with the new trial motion -- I`m sorry the new trial order.
This is going to -- there`s going to be some evidentiary problems and some challenges getting another conviction. Witnesses have moved on. Memories
have faded. But I think it`s important that we draw a line where people do commit this sort of crime.
And, look, filming as they`re having sex is a crime. This isn`t Hulk Hogan. This is a Gawker, and he doesn`t have 150 million dollars to come up with,
but I think the victim deserves some justice.
SEDAGHATFAR: Actually, that`s what make this case unique. A lot of people are upset that this conviction was overturned because this was the first
time under New Jersey law that this was made a crime, to videotaped somebody secretly engaged in this act, right, before there were only civil
remedies.
You could only sue someone in civil court for money. And so even though now, it doesn`t matter. He did face up to ten years in prison and the judge
only gave him 30. So that tells me perhaps the judge himself possibly knew that this law was not necessarily a valid law.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting. And Erin, going through this all again. I`m so worried the family is going to be re-traumatized. This is something that
they want to put behind them.
FOSTER: Absolutely. That`s my biggest concern here, that we have to think about the impact and the consequences to the family. To be reliving their
son`s death is absolutely going to re-traumatize them.
PINSKY: Right. We got more to talk about. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dharun Ravi, A Rutger student charged with setting up a secret web cam allegedly to spy on his gay roommate, Tyler Clementi, during a sexual
encounter. Clementi later committed suicide after this incident, jumping off the George Washington bridge.
Prosecutors say he activated a web cam in his room from a friend`s laptop and very briefly, but he did watch his roommate, Tyler Clementi, kissing
and engaging in physical contact with another man, his date for the night. Ravi allegedly announced on Twitter what he had seen and invited Twitter
followers, friends of his, to watch again a few days later.
Dharun Ravi was convicted of crimes related to Tyler Clementi`s suicide though he was not held responsible for the death. Now he`s getting a new
trial and some of the accounts against him have been tossed out.
Back with Anahita, Kurt, Beth, and Erin. Now, Ravi could have faced 10 years in prison but was sentenced to just 30 days, he actually served only
20 days. Anahita, why pursue a new trial? It`s all over.
SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think they will. I think they might come to some type of pre-agreement in this case. It is interesting because the 10 years came
about because of the intimidation bias charge which is from five years to 10 years because the state argued he did this because the guy was gay, his
roommate was gay, and the jurors bought that.
But the appellate court reversed, they voided that conviction because they said the law is not constitutional.
PINSKY: The ruling from three judge panel contained this following statement. The social environment that transformed an act of sexual
intimacy into a grotesque voyeuristic spectacle must be unequivocally condemned in the strongest possible way. Kurt, you brought up Gawker.
That`s the same issue, is it not?
SCHLICHTER: It sure is, Dr. Drew. With all technology now and everybody has got camera, look, I got my cell phone here, can`t leave it for a second.
Everything and everything is going to be on the front page of the newspaper, it`s going to be on the internet. Just ask Hillary and her e-
mails.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHLICHTER: The simple fact is we need to draw a line here. Is this something we`re going to tolerate? And we need to say no. We need to say no
through civil penalties were appropriate and through criminal penalties in certain situations where you invade the privacy of others in extremely
intimate ways.
I think this is a crime. I think the court was probably right about the bias issues.
SEDAGHATFAR: Criminal but not charging him with the death. I agree with that. I know a lot of people thought he should have been charged in the
death.
SCHLICHTER: No. That would have been wrong.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yeah, I think that`s too extreme.
SCHLICHTER: That is good.
SEDAGHATFAR: Causation issues there. But, yeah, I agree that should certainly be a crime, not just civil.
SCHLICHTER: We have a right to say no, Dr. Drew. We have a right to say what kind of society we want. And I don`t want to be in a society where
people think it`s okay to go tweet, you know, somebody else`s sex tape. That is not the way I want to live and I don`t think it`s the way for
anyone else.
PINSKY: Well, I`ll tell you what. For me, Erin, it goes to raising kids with the notion of what technology wellness is because we`re in it. It`s
with us.
FOSTER: Yeah, and choices and consequences and being accountable for your actions. We have to raise our children in an environment where they think
here is what could possibly happen if I do something.
PINSKY: Much of the trial was focused on the victim, Tyler Clementi`s state of mind prior to his suicide. Ravi`s attorney claimed is that it should
have focused on Ravi`s state of mind as opposed to the defendant. Beth, it`s now what the point you are making?
KARAS: Yes, that is why the court found out that the bias intimidation statute is unconstitutional. You have to look at the state of mind of the
perpetrator of the crime, not the effect on the victim, so that`s exactly what the court held and that`s why he`s getting a new trial.
PINSKY: Kurt, I have almost no time left, but the fact -- I wonder if this trial were held today in the fashion it was held originally. I understand
you don`t want to live in that kind of world, but I think we`re more sophisticated about the world we`re dealing with now.
SCHLICHTER: I think we are. But, you know, Dr. Drew, we`re allowed to draw a line. We`re allowed to determine what kind of society we want. And I
think this New Jersey jury said, no, I don`t want to live in a society where this is okay, and I`m fine with that.
PINSKY: All right. To me, from the beginning, I thought this was a terribly sad case and I feel like it`s getting sort of shaken out. Am I right here?
That was sort of finding its way.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yeah, you don`t assume the risk that someone is going to be video taping you in your bedroom when you`re having sex with somebody.
SCHLICHTER: Exactly.
SEDAGHATFAR: So, I know we`re in a new age and new era, but you never assume that risk.
PINSKY: Nancy Grace, up next.
END
