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Dr. Drew
Terror Attacks Discussed; Bobbi Kristina Brown Wrongful Death Suit; Cannibal Cop Trial. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired September 19, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the singular break in the case came with the identification of the handwriting. That was his ultimate undoing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoever placed these bombs, we will find and they will be brought to justice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Surveillance video has identified a man at both locations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While investigators are going to use all their tricks to get him to talk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a lie. Why`d you do it? What`s your motivation? Did you get any help? Who have you been talking to? How did you learn how
to do this? What -- what is your digital footprint?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have every reason to believe this was an act of terror.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Soft targets are the new norm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL SHOW HOST: A fingerprint led to the capture of Ahmad Khan Rahami, the man believed to have placed bombs in New York and
New Jersey. Rahami survived a shootout with police this morning and is now being treated at a hospital.
CNN correspondent, Brynn Gingras, joins me from the University Hospital in Newark. Brynn, how is he doing this evening? Do you know anything about his
condition?
BRYNN GINGRAS: We actually don`t, Drew, know exactly what his condition is at this point. That is something the hospital will not confirm. They`ll
only confirm that he was here at the hospital being treated or is here, rather.
We do know from the Union County prosecutor`s office, a local county here in New Jersey, that he did undergo surgery and we also can deduce from the
video that we`ve seen throughout the day that he was injured in his arm and his leg and that he was alert when he was put into an ambulance by
authorities.
We also know that at some point, he could have had a conversation with authorities, but did not have that conversation. So we don`t know if he`s
still not cooperating with authorities, but we know initially he did not cooperate.
So, there`s a lot we`re still waiting to hear and I`m sure investigators are still waiting to find out as well, hopefully to have those
conversations with him. I can tell you this, Drew, outside of this hospital where he`s being treated, we`ve seen a number of police officers
going in and out.
In fact, there are security guards at the entrance making sure they check every vehicle that actually goes into the E.R., into the hospital there,
Drew.
PINSKY: And -- and, Brynn, my last question really is, were any other officers hurt in this exchange?
GINGRAS: Yes. We actually know of two officers in that gunfire that happened in Lyndon, New Jersey, not too far from where we are. We know an
18-year veteran officer who came upon Rahami first. She was actually hit according to the Lyndon Police Department in her protective gear, and she
is okay. We`re hearing she possibly will be released from the hospital tonight.
The second officer, 23-year veteran, he was actually according to police shot at by Rahami. He was sitting in his patrol car and those shots went
through the windshield of his patrol car and luckily, Drew, they ricocheted the scene and actually he was grazed on his forehead. So both injured, both
non-life threatening, and that is the good news here, Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you so much, Brynn, for that report. Joining me, Lisa Bloom, attorney, The Bloom Firm and avvo.com; Yodit Tewolde, attorney; Steve
Moore, retired special agent, FBI; Aaron Cohen, former special forces operator specializing in counter terrorism and founder of Cherries counter
terror products.
Rahami has just been charged, this just in, with five counts of "attempted murder" of a law enforcement officer as well as "unlawful possession of a
weapon." Lisa, do you expect there to be more charges?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Oh, absolutely, because those are the charges arising from the incident today, him shooting at the police officer and being
caught with illegal weapons, allegedly. That doesn`t even talk about the bombs that he`s accused of placing in New York and perhaps in New Jersey.
So, I certainly expect more charges.
PINSKY: Now, the first bomb targeted people running in a charity race from marines in Seaside Park, New Jersey. Two more bombs in the Chelsea
neighborhood of New York City, sort of 20s west side. Third set of explosive placed in a backpack near a transit center in Elizabeth, New
Jersey. Steve, who was he targeting and does this tell you anything about his motive?
STEVE MOORE, RETIRED FBI AGENT: He was targeting anybody he could that would get his point across. He was looking for the biggest -- biggest bang
for his buck. That`s why he was so close to Times Square, that`s why he was going after marines at a marine charity.
PINSKY: And there are three locations. Now, at each one, there were unexploded bombs. Aaron, something went wrong, right? This guy, whatever he
was doing, didn`t go the way he planned it.
AARON COHEN, COUNTER TERRORISM EXPERT: Yeah, Drew. He obviously, the intent there to create multiple terrorist attacks simultaneously, which means he
was trying to do as much damage as he could in the shortest period of time. Terrorists often fail, you know.
They`re not perfect and they can always, you know, accomplish everything they set out to do and it seems like this might have been failed because --
I almost feel like he was alone on this one, he was trying to bite off more than he could chew. The -- the -- the fact that nobody was killed, not
that somebody couldn`t have been killed, means that I just feel like this is a kind of a lone wolf feel.
That`s what it feels like. It seems like it was rattly put together, attempted to be organized, but wasn`t able to pull off what he wanted. But,
the fact is, he was committed, gunning it out with the police officers, and is a terrorist through and through.
[19:05:00] PINSKY: Any sense how this -- are there are timers? How does that work?
MOORE: Once he has the cell phone attached, there are many ways you can do it. You can do it with a timer. You can do with it an alarm. You can do it
with a call in. And the beauty of that, for law enforcement, is that that requires the phone to be on and usually, that will give you a history of
what cell phone towers it pinged off of, which can lead you back to where it came from.
PINSKY: Now, thus far, the FBI is saying there`s no indication that this Rahami guy was associated with a terrorist cell. Aaron, let`s say he was --
he was not a terrorist, a lone wolf as you`re suggesting, are these guys more difficult to follow and tease out?
COHEN: Yeah, they`re more difficult because they`re -- they-re individually operating. There`s no tentacles or mosaic that connects them to a larger
picture that can be then hunted and where you can bring in a whole group of these guys, you know. You can go online and learn how to do this stuff.
It`s -- it`s all there online.
I was talking to FBI friends now. All of this stuff is accessible online. That`s the problem, is that any one of these guys can become radicalized on
Twitter, on Instagram, whatever, and then just start figuring how to put this stuff together. I think that`s the reason why it was so low tech.
PINSKY: And, Yodith, you know, whenever I hear somebody like Aaron say something like that, I will shake my head. I mean, people go, it`s so
crazy. Yeah, those are the people that these guys want to radicalize and mobilize. But then why leave this stuff online? Why aren`t we -- why aren`t
we really monitoring this stuff? We clearly are not the way we should be.
YODIT TEWOLDE, ATTORNEY: Well, no. And you know, when President Barack Obama was speaking today about the -- the bombings, he made it very clear
how hard it is to actually control these lone wolves.
I mean, like your prior guest just stated, when they work in a larger group, it`s easier to go ahead and try and defuse that by going after one
and then at least one other. But when you`re actually working alone, it`s just so hard to know what makes these individuals tick.
PINSKY: Lisa, I`m going to ask you the same question. Why not monitor somebody that clicks on these websites that provide all this information
to -- I mean, some sort of like electronic monitoring, if somebody is going on a treasonous, murderous website, why can`t we monitor them?
BLOOM: Well, I think we do monitor them to the extent that we can, you know. We can`t monitor, you know, hundreds of millions of people worldwide
and the entire internet.
But I also have another theory, perhaps, as to why Chelsea was targeted, and nobody`s really talked about this. I happen to know the neighborhood
very well, it`s a wonderful neighborhood in Manhattan, and it`s a heavily gay neighborhood.
And if this turns out to be a fundamentalist, radical type of person, let`s not forget the Orlando Nightclub bombing very recently that was targeted
because it was an LGBT nightclub. So, I think that`s something we should watch for.
PINSKY: We can add hate crime to his list of charges. Steve, I`ll ask you, I`m gonna run the horn here the same question. I mean, is there a -- I
think we backed off electronic monitoring that`s why we can`t monitor tens of thousands of people that might click through on this -- this site.
MOORE: After the patriot act came out and George Bush got his hand slapped over the -- over the National Security Agency thing, the FBI, all the
intelligence agencies have been not just told to back off but -- but it`s been enforced. So, there is a lot less monitoring that you would -- than
you would even believe.
PINSKY: That makes me ill, right?
MOORE: Well, it`s -- it`s -- it`s terrifying, and it should terrify people because when I was there, it was several years ago, they were telling us
that we could not go on public websites from an FBI computer to monitor because that was illegal.
PINSKY: I mean, we got to give up some privileges and some rights in order to win this thing because they`re going to exploit everything they can.
Next up, we`ll keep talking about this. And later, Nick Gordon legally responsible for the death of Bobbi Kristina Brown. We`ll have more on that
after this.
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t hit the high-profile targets like a bridge or a stadium of some type.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not as high-profile, 23rd and 6th, but it is very highly trafficked at that time of night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Soft targets are the new norm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The intention was to do more damage than they did and the intention, again, of terrorism is to intimidate, is to coerce.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a lousy bomb maker, or you can look at it as collateral damage where he wanted to get a message out and put the scare
into the public.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will not allow these type of people and these type of threats to disrupt our life in New York.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Three bombs at three relatively low profile locations. Police believe Ahmad Rahami is the man who placed those explosive devices near
those soft targets in New York and New Jersey. Question still remains, though, why.
Back with Lisa, Yodit, Steve, and Aaron. Rahami traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan multiple times in recent years. He married a Pakistani woman
in 2011. He was not on the terror watch list, but Steve, should he have been?
MOORE: Well, I don`t know if he should have ended up on the watch list, but you certainly have to follow up with him. You can`t just -- you can`t just
look at somebody who goes to Quetta, Pakistan, stays for almost a year and comes back and look the other way. You have to vet what they were doing
there because these are criterion countries. These are criterion areas. You have to pay attention.
PINSKY: Yodit, what ideology are we allowing to erode our safety? What is getting in the way of law enforcement doing their job?
TEWOLDE: I mean, that`s hard to say. There`s several things that can get in the way, but, I mean, I want to go back to what the guest just said about
him going to his country and staying there for long period of time. When he -- upon his return to the U.S., he was questioned heavily about his
activities there in that country and -- and didn`t find any red flags.
So, I know I have family members in East Africa, so if I went down there, probably wouldn`t stay a whole year, but I would go there because I still
have family. So, the fact that he went to his country where he was born isn`t something that should be alarming. Now, how long he stayed could be a
question. But, I mean, he did pick up a wife. He could have been courting her and staying there and.
[19:15:00] PINSKY: Yodit.
TEWOLDE: . who knows what he was doing here but.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Steve.
TEWOLDE: . Dr. Drew, he was questioned. He was questioned heavily, no red flags.
MOORE: You have to do more than question. What are you gonna say?
TEWOLDE: Like what?
MOORE: Are you a terrorist? You don`t just question them. You have to follow up on them. You have to start looking and, yes, Yodit, I get -- I
get exactly what you`re saying.
We can`t just -- we can`t just say because a person went here that they`re bad news, but if you start combining, he went there plus he has had some
very strong Anti-American sentiments, which he won`t tell you about in an interview, then you have to start putting a plus B together and you`re
gonna get.
PINSKY: And, Yodit, you say it as though it were some sort of an outrage. If I came from some country that was -- had a sort of problematic history
with the United States and I went back there and law enforcement interviewed me, I would be relieved. I would have gratitude for that. I
wouldn`t care what they wanted to do. Why not, Lisa? Why not?
BLOOM: No, it`s not that simple. Listen, I mean, I, for example, I have consulted with a man who wanted me to represent him who is an Iranian, born
in America. He goes back to Iran regularly on business.
Every time he goes to the airport he`s hassled to the extent of being held for hours with his little son next to him and, you know, he`s demeaned, his
computer`s taken away. You know, this is the kind of thing that happens to Muslim-American regularly and for some people.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: . so we really have to find the balance.
PINSKY: Lisa, I get -- I get practically -- I get searched every time I go to the airport. I get strange exams. I am delighted to cooperate. I go in
those special exam.
BLOOM: But if they held you for hours and you missed flights?
PINSKY: . they held me for a long time -- that -- it is different, but I`m telling you why. Is there some -- well, we`re getting off track here. I
want to talk about something else, which is that New Yorkers got a text alert this morning.
It`s an electronic wanted poster that included Rahami`s photo. So, my question, Aaron, is this the future? Is this one of the ways we`re gonna be
able to try to track guys down when they act out or even before?
COHEN: I do. I think it`s exactly how -- I think it`s great how the information is passed now. The cell phone works, you know, wonders for the
security community. It allows -- it`s something that we can use to track terrorists and it`s also something that we can use to be able to expel
information to hundreds of thousands if not millions of, you know, citizens in a matter of a push of a button.
So I think it`s excellent in terms of getting the Intel out to the crowds. Somebody saw the picture on CNN and on the phone, found this guy laying in
a bar. I think it`s excellent. But to address, if I may, some of the questions that were just brought up regarding what the norm is, and
somebody traveling abroad, Drew, the fact is, is that the security systems that we`re seeing here in the states are still 30 years behind Israel.
They`re still searching people and questioning for hours and they`re not doing a really good job of keeping these terrorists from getting to their
targets. I know from Israel that if somebody we would want to know the last five countries that you traveled to regardless of the amount of time that
you spent there and the interviews would be behavioral based which would indicate lies.
So, it`s not about taking shoes off and doing all the stuff we keep wasting time and money on. Somebody who`s been gone for 12 months in a heated red
zone country like Pakistan, that is certainly a red flag and his Facebook should have been looked at, and he should have been tailed and there should
have been surveillance on.
Even that`s something that Steve can tell you that the FBI is really good at, that`s definitely a red flag in Israel, and that`s the reason why we
don`t see as much terror percolating from people who travel outside of Israel and then come back to Israel to create terror. Ours is a little more
complicated.
PINSKY: This guy`s family own a chicken restaurant. He lived above it. If he was making bombs, Steve, you can follow up on what Aaron said, but my
other question is how did people not know he was making bombs upstairs?
MOORE: You never know how much the chicken`s going to disguise the.
PINSKY: How bad was the chicken is what you`re saying?
MOORE: The -- you`re going to have some indication. He`s going to have to have some precursors. It`s -- it`s going to tip off some things. But as far
as his parents owning a chicken restaurant or something like that, all terrorists have something that they do that appears normal.
PINSKY: And this family had a suit against the local law enforcement based on the law enforcement complaints of them having their shop open later
than is allowed by law or something and that`s why they -- they had a complaint against the local police and they claimed they were being
discriminated against.
And I want to go on to another case also. In Minnesota, a 22-year-old man stabbed nine people at a mall, then he was shot and killed by an off duty
police officer. Aaron, everyone I speak to thinks this guy is scarier than the bomb maker because he didn`t -- a, he was dressed like a security
guard. B, he was a -- he followed the script devices. And c, he didn`t care about his life. He was willing to die.
[19:20:00] COHEN: Yeah, Drew, this is the most lethal form of terrorist and the reason why is because, one, he`s here. Two, he`s using what we`ve seen
Hamas doing the last couple of months which is this -- this knife intifada which is what it`s called. And it also, you know, it`s extremely brutal.
There`s no training involved with running up to people and stabbing them and the fact is, is that an off duty police officer carrying concealed is
what neutralized this guy, and that is something that we need to really start looking at more here, which is the off duty layer.
Making sure that those off duty officers have the active shooter capabilities and the training and the concealed carry permit holders and
people may disagree with me but there`s over 15 million concealed carry permit holders in this country. You`re never going to take the guns away
from Americans.
I don`t care what anybody says and I realize that certain people shouldn`t have guns. I completely agree in the background checks need to be
stringent.
But the fact is if we have all these weapons out there, we need to follow that Israel model, which is how many combat vets do we have that are
perfectly normal, not suffering from any type of mental illness and are capable of being able to deploy a concealed weapon to act as a force
multiplier.
And people are gonna say it sounds crazy, but the fact is Israel`s been doing it for years. It works. There are safe people who even get more
training than cops.
PINSKY: We`re gonna have to leave it right there. I`ve got to get to the next story which is Nick Gordon. He will have to pay in the wrongful death
of Bobbi Kristina Brown. How much? And later, the so-called cannibal cop. He says women are lining up to date him. The cannibal cop. Back after this.
[19:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From the moment I saw you, I went out of my mind.
NICK GORDON, FOUND LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATH OF BOBBI KRISTINA BROWN: My name is Nick Gordon. My life changed dramatically when I met Kristina
Whitney.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This boy murdered my niece. He murdered her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The aunt of the late Bobbi Kristina Brown made her anger with Nick Gordon known outside of the Fulton County Courthouse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He thinks he`s above the law.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Friday, a judge found Gordon responsible in the wrongful death lawsuit of Bobbi Kristina Brown. Gordon was a no-show in
court.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wanted to establish whether he`s legally responsible for her injuries that preceded her death and for her death, and we`ve done
that today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on. There was witnesses there. Why didn`t they arrest Nick on that day?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Nick Gordon is civilly responsible for the death of Bobbi Kristina Brown. A judge made this ruling last week. It is now up to a jury to
determine damages in the wrongful death suit filed by Bobbi Kristina`s estate. Back with Lisa and Yodit. We are joined by Spirit,
psychotherapist, and Danielle Robay, host Entertainment Tonight Online. Danielle, what are the details of this suit?
DANIELLE ROBAY, HOST OF ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT ONLINE: So, this is all alleged by the lawsuit and from January 31st. First, Nick Gordon came home
from an all-night cocaine and drinking binge and that`s when he allegedly watched camera footage that he heard Bobbi Kristina say that he wasn`t the
man she thought he was.
Which, obviously, angered him because that is when they allegedly got into a loud, violent argument, and Nick injected her with what the lawsuit says
is a toxic cocktail, which rendered her unconscious and then he put her face down in a tub of cold water and her mouth was swollen, her tooth was
knocked out.
And then after that, he got in bed with a female house guest and told her, "now I want a pretty little white girl like you." The suit also alleged
that while Bobbi Kristina was in a coma, Nick stole 11,000 dollars from her bank account.
PINSKY: Wow. Now, Lisa, you actually reacted to that.
BLOOM: Yeah. I mean, this is really disgusting stuff. And the default judgment that was taken against him that says he`s legally responsible for
her death, that`s just the same legally as if the case had gone to a jury and a jury had found that. That is a legally binding finding. And I would
like to see law enforcement take another look at this case.
PINSKY: Well, will they? Yodit, let me ask you this. This particular judgment, is it going to make it more likely that that there will be a
criminal charge?
TEWOLDE: It`s usually the other way around. When you have a criminal case and you actually get a criminal conviction, that usually helps in a civil
lawsuit that may follow. Now, from my understanding, I know the criminal investigation is still ongoing.
In my opinion, I don`t think the charges will come from this judgment, simply because if it hasn`t come by now, I don`t think it will. But again,
to what Lisa is saying, yes, the effect of the judgment is the same as a jury finding him liable. However, this judgment isn`t based on the merits.
It`s just based on the fact that he had not appeared twice. So, it`s a default judgment. So the plaintiffs -- the estate will still have to prove
damages and bring medical records and that type of evidence to prove that they deserve 50 million dollars.
PINSKY: Lisa, can they force the issue? Can they make him show up by some means?
BLOOM: You can`t make him show up, but you can get rulings against him and he was ordered to show up for several hearings. He simply refused to do so.
He gave at least one interview and sort of thumbed his nose at the whole process. It`s absolutely the worst thing you can do when you`re being sued
is to basically say that the court, you know, I don`t care, come and get me. Well, guess what? The court did.
PINSKY: We have photos of Nick Brown outside his home in Sanford, Florida. They were taken yesterday. The estate is asking for 50 million dollars, but
am I hearing right, Danielle, that Nick is reportedly broke?
ROBAY: You know what? I think that is true although no one really knows the answer to that. Only Nick does, I guess.
PINSKY: Right. And I`m imaging, Yodit, they`re going to be all digging into his financial records and figure that out.
TEWOLDE: We know he doesn`t have any money and that`s probably one of the reasons why he didn`t show up to court. So, you know, that mentality of,
you know what? I don`t have it, so sue me. So, I doubt he`d be able to pay anything.
PINSKY: Spirit, let`s put this altogether.
Does what you`re hearing about these allegations fit with what we know about these two? They were both using drugs. They`re in this chaotic
relationship. They both had character issues, as we say. Does the allegation fit for you?
[19:30:00] Does what you`re hearing about these allegations fit with what we know about these two? They were both using drugs. They`re in this
chaotic relationship. They both had character issues, as we say. Does the allegation fit for you?
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yeah, and you know, though, the sad thing about all this, Dr. Drew, is that at the end of the day, it`s really a hollow
victory. I really wish that the family could focus on the healing aspects of this because what they`re wanting is the vindication.
But there`s nothing that`s really gonna come out of this. You can`t make him show up for court at this point, so why would he, you know, put himself
in this position and then he has no money, so what are they going to get? It`s just a way to prolong the healing here. It`s so painful to watch.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Well, he`s young. They can garnish his wages for the rest of his life if they get a judgment. Any assets that he gets, they can
seize. It`s kind of like the family of Ron Goldman going after O.L. all these years. Every time he gets something, they can seize it and, you know.
SPIRIT: But he will never -- but will Nick ever be an O.J. like does he have anything that you think, in terms of assets, that will ever amount to
anything?
BLOOM: If it were my daughter, I would go after him for the rest of his life if it were my daughter.
PINSKY: If it were your daughter, Lisa, there would be criminal charges, right?
BLOOM: Well, you know what? You can`t force law enforcement if they don`t want to bring charges and I`ve had many clients right now in my law firm
who are crime victims who are very frustrate that had law enforcement won`t go forward for one reason or another. So all they have left is the civil
case and people say, oh, they`re just in it for the money. No, they`re in it for justice.
SPIRIT: But it`s not about the money. It`s how many people get caught up in the cycle because they need to get busy and then they never live, they
never heal because they are looking for something in order to invest in their pain and they become distracted by it, but it doesn`t bring back
their loved one.
PINSKY: Spirit, I appreciate your argument, but I don`t think attorneys are going to buy into it.
BLOOM: Justice can be very therapeutic.
PINSKY: I`m with you, Spirit. But I get what you mean.
SPIRIT: We be at work.
PINSKY: Well, people can`t heal unless -- unless they accept. And they have to disengage from some of this stuff. And we saw it when Bobbi was dying --
Bobbi Kristina was dying. They kept going -- kept going with this notion that she was magically going to recover.
In March 2015, when Bobbi Kristina lay in that state, she was deep in coma. She was brain dead, essentially. Nick Gordon talked to CBC T.V.`s Dr. Phil.
Take a look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL MCGRAW, HOST OF DR. PHIL: You been drinking some?
NICK GORDON, FOUND LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATH OF BOBBI KRISTINA BROWNNICK GORDON: Yeah.
MCGRAW: How much?
GORDON: Two shots.
MCGRAW: Two shots this morning?
GORDON: Yep. I have been drinking. I have been doing Xanax. And that`s it. I`ve been -- I`ve been so, like, sober besides that. Mom, I lost -- I lost
the most legendary singer ever, and, like, I`m scared to lose Krissy. I want to let all you guys know I did everything possible in the world to --
to protect them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Spirit, we don`t know him. We haven`t examined him. But based on what he said he was taking, what we saw there, we`re talking about a
long-term treatment obligation to get well, right?
SPIRIT: Oh, yes, to say the least. And I don`t even know if it will ever come, Dr. Drew, if it`s not mandated and the court can`t make him do it, I
just don`t see -- I don`t see anything good coming out of this.
PINSKY: Yeah.
SPIRIT: It`s just money down an endless funnel somewhere. There`s no real answer here.
YODIT TEWOLDE, ATTORNEY: Accountability. Spirit, accountability. It`s about accountability in some way.
PINSKY: Well, Yodit.
SPIRIT: They said he did it. They said he did it, so now he`s accountable, so now what`s the answer?
PINSKY: Yeah, its.
SPIRIT: Does that make anybody happy or did they feel better?
TEWOLDE: They say they did it but they want a court of law. They want a court of law to acknowledge that.
PINSKY: Listen. The Bobbi Kristina Brown story is a tragedy from beginning to end. Everyone involved with it, it`s just a profound human tragedy.
We`ve got some more to say about this.
And later, something else, a cop who expressed interest in kidnapping, cooking, and then eating women. Well, he`s back in the dating pool, ladies.
Have at it. Back after this.
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, can you do a little?
BOBBI KRISTINA BROWN, TELEVISION AND MEDIA PERSONALITY, DAUGHTER OF WHITNEY HOUSTON AND BOBBY BROWN: From the moment I saw you, I went out of my mind.
I never believed in a love at first sight. But you got that magic, boy, that is making me fight, and you got to, you got a thing that you`re
making me feel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s good.
BROWN: . I can do anything for you, baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was from the lifetime series "The Houstons, On Our Own." Bobbi Kristina Brown found face down in a bathtub on January of 2015, died six
months later. A judge rule that her former live-in boyfriend, Nick Gordon, is legally responsible for her death.
Back with Lisa, Yodit, Spirit, and Danielle. Danielle, the lawsuit alleged Nick had a history of fraudulent behavior and domestic violence against
Bobbi Kristina. Do you have some details on that?
DANIELLE ROBAY, HOST OF ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT ONLINE: I do. It alleged that he actually was perpetuating fraudulent behavior as far back as 2014 when
he spread a rumor that they were married when they were not.
And people say that that is an example of controlling behavior, along with insisting on answering her cell phone, not letting her make plans without
his consent, and sadly, there`s also a few other domestic violence incidents that were highlighted in the suit as well.
PINSKY: Yeah, Spirit, I think Danielle`s right. I mean, this is pretty classic coercive and controlling relationship.
SPIRIT: Well, you know, though, but it`s also likely some codependency there.
PINSKY: Yeah, drug addicts, yeah. Co-addicts, yeah.
SPIRIT: You know, yeah, this is -- this is, and again, neither of them were my clients, they never sat on my couch, so this is just really, you know,
outside looking in.
PINSKY: Yeah.
SPIRIT: . but this is really a cautionary tale. This is a young girl who came up in a family of substance abuse, who came up in a family of
domestic violence, who chose a lifestyle that mirrored what she knew and what she was comfortable with. She never got the help that she needed and
this is a cautionary tale.
[19:40:00] PINSKY: I could -- well said. That`s exactly it. I sort of see it all as a big traumatic reenactment. People who have unpleasant things
from their childhood. They recreate them in their adult life. Nick Gordon spoke about Bobbi Kristina`s drug use with CBS T.V.`s Dr. Phil. Have a
look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: A photo surfaced of Krissy smoking out of a bong and snorting cocaine on the internet in 2011. Did she have a drug problem?
GORDON: Krissy?
MCGRAW: Yeah.
GORDON: Yeah.
MCGRAW: Did you ever see her do drugs while her mother was alive?
GORDON: Socially.
MCGRAW: Yeah.
GORDON: Yeah.
MCGRAW: Like what drugs? And by socially, you mean at a party or something?
GORDON: Yeah, maybe -- maybe smoke a little bit.
MCGRAW: Did you do it with her?
GORDON: Smoke?
MCGRAW: Yeah.
GORDON: Yeah.
MCGRAW: But then she started doing other drugs at some point?
GORDON: Yeah, now, it got really bad after Nip had passed away. It was unfortunate, but that`s -- at the time, that`s kind of the only way we knew
how to deal with what had happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And Yodit, could the fact that she was an active user of really significant substances, would that mitigate the guilt or culpability for
Nick?
TEWOLDE: It may, but I think it will have an effect on the amount of money the estate is going to receive, considering she was already engaging in
sort of dangerous behavior already.
You know, I don`t even know who advised Nick Gordon to even go on that show and talk like that about that night in question, her drug use, his drug
use, especially since he didn`t want to appear in court and actually make a case for himself.
So -- but yes, her -- her past history, her destructive behavior will play a role in the fact that the estate is going to try to prove up these
damages and I think it will actually substantially reduce the amount that they`re actually asking for.
PINSKY: Lisa, what do you think it is that`s keeping this from becoming a criminal case? In other words, there seems to be, at least a ton of
allegations, there is a lot of evidence of some type here. Is it just doesn`t reach a certain standard? Where do you think the problem is?
BLOOM: Well, of course it is a higher standard of proof in a criminal case, beyond a reasonable doubt, and prosecutors may be concerned that he
would take the fifth. Of course he`s already spoken publicly about some of this now. You played the Dr. Phil interview. And I would argue that`s a
waiver, at least as to the topics that he chose to talk about. You know, Nick...
PINSKY: Waiver? What do you mean?
BLOOM: He`s already spoken about some of this stuff. He has spoken about it publicly. So Nick Gordon comes across to me as a very arrogant young man.
He`s going to go and do a T.V. interview but he won`t go into court where the estate, where the family of this young beautiful young woman, you know,
just wants some answers.
He won`t go in there, raise his right hand, swear to tell the truth, and answers some questions. He`s too good to do that. And so this default
judgment`s entered against him. We`ll see it in the damages phase if he goes in and just fights on the money side of it.
But, you know, he comes across very, very badly to me.
PINSKY: Yeah.
BLOOM: And I hope the court hits him with a big number.
PINSKY: And Spirit, we don`t say badly, we would say he`s got a lot of issues that need treatment, and I don`t think.
SPIRIT: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: Yeah. This young man will not go quietly into that good night. We will hear from him again.
SPIRIT: Oh, no, we will see him over and over and over. We got a lot of axis one and axis two things to be looking at here, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yeah. All right. Panel, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Up next, the cannibal cop. Would you date a man who has expressed interest in
killing and eating women? I mean, what`s the big deal? Who are you to say? How dare you judge somebody? They`re lining up, allegedly, he says. Back
after this.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The so-called cannibal cop trial in New York City, a police officer named Gilberto Valle was accused of planning to kidnap,
kill, and cannibalize women including his own wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also guilty of wrongfully accessing a federal database.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the conviction was overturned by a Manhattan judge who called his online activity "fantasy role play."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not a crime to intend. It is not a crime to plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, allegedly, women are lining up to date the so-called cannibal cop, at least that`s what he is telling the "New York Post" in an interview
published this week. Back with Lisa, Yodit, Spirit, and Aaron.
Now, Spirit, Valle claims 50 female fans have reached out to him on social media after he was released from prison, and my staff wants to know why.
Who would want to date him?
SPIRIT: Oh my goodness. It`s the women who just can`t believe that people like this are serious, Dr. Drew. You know, Dr. Maya Angelou said, when
somebody tells you who they are, believe them. But unfortunately, people who were not sociopathic or psychopathic do not believe that this kind of
behavior actually exists.
PINSKY: He says his last date knew his history told him, "everyone has their own things they`re into and shouldn`t be prosecuted or judged for
it." Yeah, Lisa, don`t be so judgmental. Like for instance, would you think anything of his computer document entitled, "abducting and cooking
Kimberly, a blueprint."
BLOOM: You know, I have a very hard time with this one, Dr. Drew, because I draw a very bright line between consenting adults that can do whatever they
want sexually, they can fantasize, they can make documents on their computer.
It`s not for me to judge what turns other people on sexually, and yet this guy seems so close to the line of actually committing this crime. And you
know, law enforcement jumped in, apparently, too quickly because he hadn`t taken any acts to actually murder anybody and maybe it was just fantasy,
but this is really, really a tough one, I think.
PINSKY: And, Aaron, we can judge. We know when people have tell tale signs number one, and number two, law enforcement are always criticized for
waiting until something happens.
[19:50:00] AARON COHEN, COUNTER TERRORISM EXPERT: I think that the line needs to be drawn between terror, active shooters, and profiles that fit
the the mosaic of mass casualty type of incidences when it comes to predetermining, Drew, this type of intent and I agree with Lisa a thousand
percent across the board. It`s so close. But I just don`t think that.
SPIRIT: Wait.
COHEN: . I just don`t think that fantasy is enough.
SPIRIT: I can fantasize -- I can fantasize about chopping up and eating hundreds of women, but I cannot fantasize about blowing up hundreds of
people.
BLOOM: You can fantasize about anything you want. It`s not illegal to fantasize.
PINSKY: Okay. What have you documented?
SPIRIT: He was convicted for doing that.
COHEN: This is gonna depend on where he has traveled, how many times he`s been on one of those countries, how long he stayed, and what his behavioral
profile was.
PINSKY: Countries where they cook and eat women? What are you talking about?
COHEN: No, I`m talking about as this relates to terrorism now, how we can relate to mass casualties.
PINSKY: Yodit, let me get you on this. You had a disgusted look on your face. What are you thinking?
TEWOLDE: Well, I`m thinking that we can`t police people`s thoughts. I mean, this man was convicted on a fantasy. When he got convicted, I totally
disagree, but I do agree with the judge that threw this conviction out.
Because none of the things that they said that he was plotting to use in this blueprint that he laid out this plan, this master plan was ever found
on him. And so, look, aside from that, I may not have agreed with his conviction, but I certainly wouldn`t want to date somebody who actually
thinks that way. I think he needs a lot of help actually.
PINSKY: You`re right. It was overturned in 2014 by a federal judge. Speaking of the New York Post, "people don`t have to like what I`m into
sexually, but the issue here is that an innocent person was thrown in prison for his thoughts. I spent 21 months in a prison for a crime I didn`t
and never would commit." Aaron, is that what you`re saying? This is where we draw the line?
COHEN: Yeah, this is where the line would be drawn for me. The -- the thought of doing something like this or fantasizing about something like
this is way different than some serial killer putting together a blueprint with the actual -- it`s so hard to define the intent in terms of
fantasizing and the terms of what actually gonna be. But I think that this is a very rare situation.
PINSKY: It isn`t fair enough to all three of you. But, Spirit, for you and I, when we get back, I`m more concerned about the women that want to date
him. Let`s get into that after this. We`ll be right back.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said, this one likes to skin his humps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you think he removes their skins, Agent Starling?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It excites him. Most serial killers keep some sort of trophies from their victims.
UNIDENTIFIED FMALE: I didn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No, you ate yours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That scene from "Silence of the Lambs." The most notorious cannibalism story. The man we`re discussing only talked about it. He did
not actually do it. Now, he`s off the hook and he is out on a dating scene in New York City.
Back with Lisa, Yodit, Spirit, and Aaron. So, regarding his fantasies, Valle told the New York Post, "it started gradually during my teenage
years. I was watching bondage porn and that led me to cannibal websites."
Spirit, that`s not normal progression. So my question is, you know, could it be a sex addiction sort of going off the rail, number one, and number
two, who is dating this guy?
SPIRIT: Oh, my goodness. So, now, I don`t think it fits into category of sex addiction, Dr. Drew, but there is definitely something there that is
unhealthy that we need to watch out for. And who dates him? We`re talking about those women that are in those cluster B mental health, you know, the
borderline, the domestic violence.
BLOOM: Would you say that for all the women who like 50 shades of Grey?
PINSKY: No, this is very different.
BLOOM: I mean, it`s not my cup of tea, but.
SPIRIT: No, it`s totally different. It`s very different.
BLOOM: Is it? I mean, these are their sexual fantasies again.
SPIRIT: No. No, Lisa.
BLOOM: I don`t want to judge.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Lisa, stop it. We didn`t say -- we`re not judging people`s behavior. We`re saying -- we`re saying clinically when somebody is
attracted to certain things that are way pathological or on a pathological spectrum, we can make predictions about what`s likely there, who can do
that.
BLOOM: I just wanting that`s fair when we`re talking about consenting adults and nobody is getting hurt.
PINSKY: We didn`t say that there is anything wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Lisa -- Lisa, you got to listen.
SPIRIT: I don`t go down the legal track. I don`t tell you what works in your neighborhood.
PINSKY: Wait, Lisa, we`re not saying -- we`re not judging the behavior, we`re saying who would be attracted to that behavior. We`re not saying they
shouldn`t do it. We`re not saying there is anything wrong with the capital W. We`re saying we can infer based on our clinical experience what could be
an accuracy who is going to like that. That`s all.
BLOOM: I just don`t think we should pathologizing.
PINSKY: I`m not pathologizing. We`re not even talking about the sexuality. We`re talking about who would like him? By the way, if we are studying 20
polar bears, you can predict what they`re doing around a carcass, you can. It`s just the way it works. There are certain things you can predict about
behavior.
Now, this guy was also found guilty of illegally accessing a federal law enforcement database. Now, the database which he was trained to use had
access to as a cop helped him research some of these so-called victims. Aaron, I got a few seconds left. Is that a place where he might have
crossed the line?
COHEN: Absolutely. Those databases contain extremely personal information that`s connected through only government sources. It can include everything
from a driver`s license, details to where you live, to every conviction that`s ever been had against you. The details of those dispositions.
Those are very personal databases and they`re getting more detailed now than ever because of all these agencies working together. Everyone of those
acts, every time a law enforcement agent accesses one of those databases at a law enforcement agency, there`s a record of that kept which is why he got
caught doing it.
[20:00:00] PINSKY: All right. Got to interrupt you, because Nancy Grace is up now.
END
