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Erin Burnett Outfront

Alabama Hostage Victim At Hospital; New Developments in Catholic Hospital Defense Story

Aired February 04, 2013 - 19:00   ET


ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT next, the hostage situation in Alabama came to a violent end. We have an update on the gunman and the 5-year-old boy that was being held hostage.

Plus, last month, we brought you a story about the Catholic hospital that said a fetus almost ready to be born is not a person, and today, there's a dramatic development in that story.

And Ted Nugent, one of the NRA's most vocal supporters promises to bring massive truth to CNN tonight. He gives us an exclusive look at his ranch, the guns he owns, and why he believes guns are crucial for America. Let's go OUTFRONT.

Good evening, everyone. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, we have breaking news on the Alabama hostage crisis. It is now over, 5- year-old, Ethan, that's the little boy's name, he's at a hospital. We found that out a few seconds ago. He's with his family.

There's heavy security there as well, and the big headline, he's safe. He was abducted from his school bus and held in an underground bunker for six days. We can also report that the kidnapper, 65-year- old, Jimmy Lee Dykes is dead.

I want to get straight to Martin Savidge who is covering this story in Midland City, Alabama, about 100 miles south of Montgomery. Martin, what more can you tell us about this little boy, Ethan, and where he is and how he is tonight?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we know he's surrounded by a very happy family. That would be his mother, his siblings, and extended family and we have been told that he is in good shape physically. Of course, what's got to be determined, Erin, is how is he doing mentally after this long ordeal?

BURNETT: I know that is going to be a big question. There have been reports that the little boy may have had some sort of autism. That he really could have some psychological challenges to deal with. What do you know, Martin, about how this rescue happened? Why it happened today, and not three days ago?

SAVIDGE: Yes, well, I guess, the reason that authorities said to us is they noted in the last 24 hours, there had been a breakdown in the attitude of Mr. Dykes. They said they had been in constant contact, but they noticed he had deteriorated. They didn't into great detail.

They also said they saw him with a weapon in such a way that they felt that he was threatening and of course, the biggest fear was for the 5-year-old boy. So that's when they decided to act. There was an explosion, gunfire.

We didn't hear it here, but I immediately been getting text and calls from people in the area saying did you hear? Something is up and of course, something was up.

BURNETT: So Martin, just to belabor the point, but make sure I understand. So they who killed him as opposed to Jimmy Lee Dykes killing himself?

SAVIDGE: Well, you know, that point, Erin, is a good one, but it has not been fully clarified. We believe that is the way it went down. We're expecting a further update later tonight, where they will go into details and take questions. We also note there were some assets of the U.S. military that were brought to bear.

Leon Panetta, the secretary of defense personally approved the use of special equipment that apparently could be used like, say, for detecting IEDs in overseas. It was allowed to be used here.

That would have meant there were soldiers here. Soldiers only used to operate the equipment, not in any way to go in with law enforcement. They don't have that power.

BURNETT: How unusual is that, Martin, that Leon Panetta of the Defense Department, that's the very highest level of the American military system, would be involved in this?

SAVIDGE: Yes, that's extremely usual. You're right, Erin. I mean, there were also reports of unmanned surveillance. Drones, that were being used as part of this. That hasn't been concerned.

But it gives you a sense there was from the highest levels a very strong personal commitment and feeling of sympathy for the little boy and trying to get it resolved in a way where he was safe and that's exactly what happened.

BURNETT: All right, Martin Savidge, thank you very much. He is reporting on that story and everyone I know has been talking about the little boy and what it was like for him down in the darkness in that bunker.

I want to bring in a Dr. Charles Sophy now. He is a psychiatrist and director of Children's Services for L.A. County hospitals along with Tom Fuentes, a former FBI assistant director and a contributor for us.

Tom, I wanted to start with you. I mean, we know the ending here now. At least before the child begins his healing process, the child is physically safe. The kidnapper is dead. How could investigators have accomplished this without harming the child? TOM FUENTES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it would have taken a great deal of planning and skill. In the case of the FBI hostage rescue team, they trained full time for these kinds of events. So they worked with the negotiators. The FBI negotiating team came in with the hostage rescue team.

They have worked together many times. They know what the capabilities are for each of their teams. And this planning would have begun from the first minute they arrived on the scene. Because at the time, even from the beginning, the negotiators when they're establishing that line of communication, which they hope to be able to do as soon as possible.

But when they establish that communication, the SWAT team has to immediately be prepared to do an assault and prepared to do a rescue in the event harm is happening to that boy. They don't have the luxury of sitting around for seven days and waiting until somebody decides. They have to be prepared from the first minute, 24 hours a day.

So that planning would have already gone on for a long time. From what I heard, the negotiations were starting to deteriorate. The mental attitude of Dykes was starting to really get worse over the last couple of days. And the negotiators were becoming increasingly fearful that he saw no way out of this.

That he knew he had committed a murder. He knows he's an old man and that he felt that he had no way to come out of this. And the fear would be, as we have seen in so many other situations, oftentimes the person commits suicide, but then kills everybody around them in the process.

That would have been the fear here is that he might in the process of deciding to take his own life, take the boy's life first and then take his own. They just couldn't have that.

BURNETT: I want to ask you something more about that in a moment. First, Dr. Sophy, I want to ask you about Ethan. Obviously, he's physically okay, but he's 5 years old. He's going to have his 6th birthday on Wednesday of this week.

He's a little boy. He has Asperger's syndrome. We are also told he has attention deficit disorder. Psychologically, how is this going to affect the little boy over the long term?

DR. CHARLES SOPHY, PSYCHIATRIST: I think that any ability in any trauma that happens to a child, whether they have a psychiatric or mental health problem or not is going to fall heavily on them. I think the biggest message that we can send to this child by his mother and his father is that he is safe.

And he is protected because he didn't feel safe and he wasn't protected and he ended up in this situation. So that's the biggest impact on a child, especially after something is resolved. Luckily, this has been successfully resolved, but safety and protection is key for him. BURNETT: And of course, we don't know at this point what happened, Dr. Sophy, right? We don't know whether there was sexual abuse or physical abuse or what might happen in that bunker?

SOPHY: Right. And I mean, the tendency is going to be to swarm around him to get information, both to help him and to understand what went down under that ground, but the bottom line is right now, these next few days are critical for this boy to bond with his family, to feel safe and feel protected.

BURNETT: So Tom, I wanted to ask you a question when you were talking about the negotiators must have felt this was possibly going to end terribly, that the kidnapper could have killed the child and then killed himself, so they decided to intervene today.

Given that, how do you think this happened? As we're still trying to figure out whether Jimmy Lee Dykes killed himself or whether law enforcement were able to successfully kill him before he could kill the child.

FUENTES: Well, I think the fact that you have so many witness accounts of hearing a loud explosion followed by multiple shots or some type of gunfire would indicate that he didn't commit suicide. I don't think he would be able to kill himself to many times.

So the standard procedure in an operation like this would be for the assault team to introduce a grenade simulator, commonly called a flash bang, and what that does is especially in a confined area like a bricked in bunker, that bang is so loud that it literally just freezes the nervous system of somebody.

So that for a second or more they can't really move, they're frozen, and during that time, the assault team rushes in. By the time, he's recovering from that noise, if he has a weapon in his hand or turned with a weapon they would take him out.

BURNETT: But in a nutshell, I don't understand. If that's possible, why not do that right away? I mean, why wait six days? Who cares? I'm sorry, who cares if you get the guy alive? You want to save the child from the trauma.

FUENTES: Well, they do care if they get him alive. So what they want to do is try to resolve this where everybody comes out of this alive, and the other thing that would be assessed and the SWAT team leader would be informed the on-scene commander from the beginning, they have formulated a plan, but what are the odds the plan would be successful.

I can tell you having been a SWAT team member and a commander, the commander as well, that looking at pictures of that bunker, that was an extreme challenge. If I was the SWAT team leader making that plan, I would have informed the commander that this is going to be very difficult. The odds are not great.

They're not up above 90 percent success. They're going to be somewhat lower than that, and who knows how low. If that commander on the first, second, third day decides that oh, we're going to go ahead. Who cares if he dies?

And the odds are that that boy ends up dead. You can't try to end this any sooner than you absolutely have to because of those risks to Ethan.

BURNETT: Yes, I understand, not as simple as perhaps I thought. All right, thanks so much to both of you. We appreciate it. We're going to have much more on the story later in the show.

We're going to be speaking to a woman who lived through a similar ordeal, taken on a school bus, buried underground 36 years ago, she and 25 other children were abducted and held captive in that way.

Plus, President Obama says he goes skeet shooting all the time, and the White House has released one photo. Did it do more damage than good though?

And the mystery of why this happened at the Super Bowl last night, we shed some light on the subject later in the show.


BURNETT: Our second story, OUTFRONT, a picture is worth 1,000 words, or is it? So the White House released this picture of President Obama shooting skeet at Camp David on his birthday back in August.

It was released nearly a week after the president's interview with the "New Republic" in which he declared, quote, "Up at Camp David, we do skeet shooting all the time." That was met with skepticism so the White House put out one photo, but is it too little too late?


DAVID AXELROD, FORMER OBAMA SENIOR ADVISER: I don't understand. They should have put the picture out earlier. I don't know why they waited five days to put that out because it just rekindled the whole story.


BURNETT: OUTFRONT, CNN contributor David Frum, former speech writer for President George W. Bush and Michael Waldman former speech writer for President Clinton. Maybe President Obama was hoping you both could help write his answers to the article.

Why do this? You know, today, the White House, Jay Carney had to answer questions about this again. He told reporters the president has made it clear. He grew up in Hawaii. He spent time in California and Chicago, Cambridge.

I mean, this is not -- he has never pretended to or suggested that he has grown up as a hunter. Jon Stewart -- well, I mean, first of all, what is your reaction to that? I mean, it kind of brings it all back again. MICHAEL WALDMAN, BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE, NYU: He was not hunting at Harvard law in other words. Look, I think he kind of can't win or can't lose with this. He said, I think, very off the cuff, and honestly, yes, we do skeet shooting.

Then people got hysterical, aha, he's lying, trying to pull a fast one. They released the photo, which is kind of funny. He looks really great doing the shooting, so that, of course, once again, he manages to look very cool in what he's doing. I don't think this is going to be --

BURNETT: He looks cool in everything he does. He's got that way about him.

WALDMAN: I don't think that this is going to make that big of a difference. I think if he were seriously thinking about it in political terms, it's a signal of reassurance that he's not against all guns.

He is culturally understanding. That a lot of people in America hunt and use sporting rifles, but I don't think that's why they released the photo. I think they were just trying to be responsive, and you know, no good deed goes unpunished.

BURNETT: You know, David, what is interesting though about this is so you have people on both sides here who aren't satisfied. You know, and on the left, let me play what Jon Stewart had to say because I thought he said it pretty darn well. Here he is.


JON STEWART, "THE DAILY SHOW": The point is, Mr. President, what are you doing? Why try? As far as your opponents go, no measure of the taunt, true or disingenuous will ingratiate you to your opponent, which was probably summed up best in the Dr. Seuss classic, the people who hate you. They do not like you shooting skeets. They do not like you eating meat. They do not like you drinking beer or even if you roped a steer.


BURNETT: Lose, lose situation, David Frum. Now we have his base is upset. Why would you even think to put out this picture?

DAVID FRUM, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Jon Stewart loves the president. Look, about 5 percent of Americans over age 16 have a hunting license. Hunting is a very minority and dwindling activity. It's an honored activity. It connects us deep to the American past. It's not what the gun debate is about.

What the gun debate is about is the anxieties of middle-class, middle-aged Americans about crime and insecurity. That's what the debate is about. So the president could -- he could disembowel a dear on national television. It wouldn't make a difference.

This debate is about fears and mayhem and crime. Those who argue for more gun restrictions will say those fears are exaggerated. The country is safe. It's never been safer. Crime statistics are down.

A gun in your house doesn't make your safe. It actually exposes your loved ones to greater harm of accident or suicide. But if you're going to engage the debate, you have to engage the debate where it is, and where it is not is about skeet shooting. It is not about hunting deer. It is not about hunting ducks.

BURNETT: Which is a fair point?

WALDMAN: It's really interesting, when these debates happened 10 or 20 years ago, David is exactly right. It was very much about the culture of the rural south being threatened. Now it's about, as he says, a lot of these fears. But that's what's so interesting about the background check issue.

Back then, the NRA said, no, no, no. Don't ban assault weapons. Let's just check and make sure that only law abided citizens get guns. Now that's what the white house or the president is proposing and all of a sudden, the NRA is saying, no, no, no, it's a terrible idea. It's an interesting time.

Crime is so down, not just in New York, but all over the country. It really has opened up a possibility for a little bit less emotion and a little more common sense on criminal justice laws generally, but this kind of rips the band aid off a lot of people's fears, a lot of which are pretty irrational.

BURNETT: I just want to play one quick sound bite and talk about whether the NRA has gone too far on their side. But first, how did you say it. I am never sure how to say it. I'm so glad we have speechwriters on the show.

So they can use vocabulary and expand all of our pronunciations. But first, let me just play this exchange between the head of the NRA and Chris Wallace on Fox News this weekend.


WAYNE LAPIERRE, EXECUTIVE V.P./CEO, NRA: The president's kids are safe, and we're all thankful for it. The point of that ad --

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS: They don't have to face a threat that most children do not face.

LAPIERRE: Tell that to the people of Newtown.

WALLACE: Do you really think that the president's children are the same kind of target as every school child in America. That's ridiculous and you know it, sir.


BURNETT: David, Chris Wallace tells the head of the NRA you're ridiculous and you know it, you might have jumped the shark for the NRA. FRUM: Well, except that's not what the polls are showing. There is tremendous sympathy for the NRA and there's tremendous and rising, rising support for the most expansive vision of gun rights. That's the paradox.

As Americans become safer, as crime becomes less of a threat, Americans seem to become more afraid and they turn to guns to make them safe. When they do that, they put their own children at risk of suicide and gun accidents.

BURNETT: All right, well, thanks very much to both of you. We appreciate it.

Still to come, one of the NRA's most vocal supporters comes OUTFRONT. Ted Nugent takes on gun critics.

Plus, a story we have been following closely --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- consideration whatsoever will determine how many bullets I need to protect my family.


BURNETT: Tonight, a major development.


BURNETT: Our third story, OUTFRONT, a change of tune. There's a huge development tonight in a story we have been following, a Catholic hospital's surprising defense in a wrongful death case involving unborn twin fetuses.

Laurie was seven months pregnant when she went into cardiac arrest. She died and the twins died. When her husband sued the Catholic hospital argued that the fetuses were not people under Colorado law.

Tonight, though, the hospital in a surprising about face called its own defense morally wrong. Kyung Lah has been out front on the story from the beginning, and Kyung, what is the hospital saying?

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, the statement that we received today from Catholic Health Initiatives is a complete reversal from what its attorneys have argued in court for years. In court, Catholic Health Initiatives have argued under Colorado law that the twins do not count as people. That's a direct contradiction to church teachings.

The church says life begins at conception. They didn't just argue this once the hospital's group's lawyers have argued this repeatedly. Now the case is waiting to be heard in Colorado's Supreme Court. After local newspapers and this program, CNN's OUTFRONT, pointed out the hypocrisy, here is what Catholic Health Initiatives or CHI is saying today. CHI representatives acknowledge that it was, quote, "morally wrong for attorneys representing St. Thomas Moore Hospital to cite the state's wrongful death act in defense of this lawsuit."

The statement does go on to mention that the hospital outfit also will not cite Colorado's law that says fetuses are not people anymore. We also got a statement from the bishops of Colorado. So why now?

Well, the bishops say they weren't aware of what the lawyers were arguing. The bishops say CHI's upper management didn't know what its own lawyers were arguing in court. So after the news report, they say they became aware. They huddled and decided that the legal argument just didn't align with church teachings -- Erin.

BURNETT: That's pretty amazing, Kyung. Where does this leave the lawsuit, and I have to ask you because when you first aired this piece, I was so moved by the father, Jeremy, talking when you visited the cemetery with him when he was at the grave of his wife and children, what did he say to this news today?

LAH: You know, I did talk to Jeremy today. He actually didn't even know about the statement. I read it to him over the telephone. He said he was stunned, saying he is in shock, and added wow. Here is what his attorney is saying.

She says, quote, "This is a self-serving document. It is inaccurate as to how it characterizes the decisions of the lower court and the petition in the Supreme Court. It does not appear to reflect a real investigation and does nothing to address the harm done to Jeremy Stodghill in this case."

She adds that she is disappointed and Jeremy Stodghill has not heard from the hospital or the bishops of Colorado and it doesn't change his lawsuit right now at all -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right, thank you very much, Kyung Lah. We're going to keep following that story.

Still to come, the kidnapping and hostage story comes to an end in Alabama. Thirty six years ago, there was a group of school children, they were on a bus, they got taken, they got held hostage underground. They survived. One of them joins us tonight.

Plus, this weekend, one of America's most celebrated snipers who served four tours with 160 confirmed kills in Iraq was murdered by someone he brought to a gun range. One of his closest friends comes OUTFRONT to explain why he thought that was a good idea.


BURNETT: Welcome back to the second half of OUTFRONT. We start with stories we care about where we focus on reporting from the front lines.

And we begin with the Super Bowl blackout. What caused half the lights in the New Orleans Superdome to go out for 34 minutes? Well, according to Entergy, the power company which serves the Superdome, and the SMG, which is a company that manages the Superdome, it's a machine that monitors electrical load detected an abnormality and did what it is supposed to do in that case, which is to activate breakers and shut off the power. That is way too confusing for someone like me to fully to understand. But in case you were wondering, both SMG and the NFL commissioner Roger Goodell say that Beyonce's halftime show had absolutely nothing to do with it.

All right. In a press conference with French President Francois Hollande, Vice President Joe Biden today praised what he called France's decisive action in Mali. This is something the U.S. has been supporting. The Air Force tells us that as of yesterday, U.S. C-17s have flown 30 flights into Mali, transporting 610 people and 760 tons of equipment to French troops. France has been heavily involved in ousting the Islamist rebels from key Malian cities led by Timbuktu.

There has been a cost, though. Today, Oxfam said many food traders fled the region as the French troops advanced, causing food prices to rise as much as 20 percent.

Well, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad joked today that he'd be willing to be the first man that Iranians scientists sent into space. Now, the comments came after Iran's semi-official Fars news agency said the country had successfully sent a monkey into orbit.

Now, you may remember that story. But John McCain got involved in this. He got onto the Twitter and said, quote, "So Ahmadinejad wants to be the first Iranian in space. Wasn't he just there last week?"

Yes. You know what? I can warn you, calling people monkeys can be problematic. After receiving some criticism about the tweet, McCain tweeted again, clarifying it was a joke and telling people to lighten up.

It has been 550 days since the U.S. lost its top credit rating. What are we doing to get it back?

Well, President Obama signed the No Budget No Pay Act that lets the Treasury borrow money until mid-May. It also requires the House to pass a budget by mid-April or else their pay will be withheld, although that's' not even constitutionally allowed. So, it's kind of bogus.

And now, our fourth story OUTFRONT: the six-day hostage standoff in Alabama is over tonight.

The 5-year-old boy, his named Ethan, is safe. He's in the hospital tonight with his family. The abductor is dead after authorities entered the underground bunker where the hostage drama played out.

Now, the case brings back painful memories to the victims of another school kidnapping 36 years ago. It happened in Chowchilla, California. Three men hijacked a bus load of 26 school children. They forced the driver and children then to climb into a hole in the ground into a moving van which was buried underground in a quarry.

The kidnappers then left their hostages buried for 16 hours, demanding $5 million in ransom. The hostages fortunately got out alive.

And tonight, one of those victims, Jodi Heffington-Medrano, is OUTFRONT.

And, Jodi, thank you so much for joining us. I want to let everyone know, you're standing in front of that school bus, the very school bus you were on, which I know has become a bit of a memorial for the horrific thing you went through. You were 10 years old.

What do you still remember, even now, about that day?

JODI HEFFINGTON-MEDRANO, KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR: Certain smells, and how Edward was so brave for us, as their bus driver was for them, and how frightened all of us were. And -- oh. Just how scared we all were.

BURNETT: Yes, I mean, it's -- sorry, go ahead.

HEFFINGTON-MEDRANO: I just remember that day being probably one of the worst days ever in my life and of my classmates'.

BURNETT: And I know you have been through years and years, Jodi, of therapy, of trying to come to terms with this. And I'm wondering what still is hardest for you, and what you would say to Ethan's parents who are just beginning this process with that little boy?

HEFFINGTON-MEDRANO: What I would say to them is to always let him be open to what he needs to say to them. And let him say it when he needs to say it. Not to force it. And to make sure that they do seek out therapy for him with someone who is qualified.

BURNETT: And in your case, Jodi, I know you were driven around for 11 hours before you were then put underground into that -- into that quarry. And then another 16 hours before you were able to escape. What do you recall from those hours that might help us all understand a little bit of what Ethan has been going through for the past week?

HEFFINGTON-MEDRANO: Well, for us, I at least had the other kids to comfort me or to be around me, even though right now, or back then, I found it -- I couldn't stand them touching me. Because they were, you know, urinating on us, and you know, the smell, and it was so hot.

Poor Ethan only had this deranged man with a gun. And I can't imagine that poor boy being only 5, being alone with this deranged man with a gun. And at least the kids, the ones I was with, all of the children I was with, we had each other, and we had Edward, our bus driver. The other children on the bus that Ethan was on, they had to witness their bus driver be murdered and shot. And I can't imagine how horrific that was for them, and the pain that they still see and the nightmares they might have. And I just urge all the parents of all the children to allow those children to please let them talk about it. And be open to it. And maybe even let them all get together alone and speak about it with each other because you know, none of us ever really sat down and talked about it ever to each other until recently. A group of us girls did speak about it, and we never, ever, ever talked about it.

As a matter of fact, as soon as this happened to us, there were some that told our parents, just pretend like it never happened. And that's the way it was treated for years and years and years. And I did seek help from a doctor, Leonor Terre (ph), and she helped me tremendously. And I'm very thankful for her. And I did seek help from my pastor.

So I believe that that's what helped me.


HEFFINGTON-MEDRANO: But I also believe that us talking together was very healing for me, too, and I think it was healing for the other girls. And I wished we would have done it sooner. I think it would have helped us all with many problems that we experienced through our teens and our 20s that we may not have had.


HEFFINGTON-MEDRANO: And I just urge al those parents to please let their children talk about it and get together, and without reporters and without anyone stopping them from what they feel and let them say it to each other.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Jodi, thank you very much for taking the time to share that with us.

And now, we go to Texas and the shooting murder of America's most lethal snipers, former Navy SEAL Chris Kyle. Kyle was killed on Saturday at a gun range, allegedly by a former marine who had been reportedly struggling with posttraumatic stress disorder.

Now, with 160 confirmed killed, Iraqi insurgents named Kyle the "devil of Ramadi" and placed a bounty on his head. The first kill was a woman who cradled a toddler with one hand and a grenade in the other. He writes movingly about it in his book.

OUTFRONT tonight, a close friend, Marcus Luttrell, who is also a former Navy SEAL. He knew Chris Kyle for 17 years.

And, Marcus, thank you for coming on to talk about your friend. I knew that you had a chance today to spend some time with Chris' family, you've known him a long time, and it's no secret, he was very dedicated to helping other soldiers coming home from war who were struggling with adjustment.

Was the shooting range a part of that, it's a regular thing that he did to help them? MARCUS LUTTRELL, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Yes, ma'am. It was part of it. From what I understand, he had talked to the kid, called him up and was like, hey, do you want to get together? Get out of the house? Kind of clear your head out, let's go down to the shooting range and throw some rounds down range, and kind of a way to blow off a little steam, yes.

BURNETT: And I want to ask you more about that in a moment, but first, we were able to find some tape of Chris talking. And he was a very good speaker. He spoke at Las Vegas, at a gun show about the transition he went through from being a sniper who killed people. That's what he did, killed people, put them in his sights and killed people -- to come home.

Here is -- here's a little piece of what he said in that interview to


CHRIS KYLE, FORMER NAVY SEAL: You know, we let our job identify who we are. It's heroic. It's honorable and you're doing it for the greater good. All of a sudden, you don't have an identity. You have to learn a whole new way to act because you can't act the same way we do in work out in public. And people will think you're a savage or something. So it's hard to get your head around. But it takes a while.


BURNETT: Did he ever talk to you about the difficulties he had in adjusting?

LUTTRELL: Yes, ma'am, of course. As Navy SEALs, as frogmen, we were very rarely go to the psychiatrist and psychologist to talk about our problems. We would usually solve our problems in-house. You're talking about a guy who has been through similar situations and it makes it easy to relate to each other.

What he was saying there is just, is part of it, part of the job. I mean, it's what we sign up for. We know what we're getting into.

It's the reason the pipeline is so long. It's not something you go in, a couple weeks of training, you get dropped into. You absolutely know what you're getting yourself into.

Chris, he was very good at what he did in the military. And he was also very good at what he did when he got out of the military. And sometimes those two things, they run over, they coexist, if you will, with each other.


LUTTRELL: But at the end of the day, you know, you get up, shake it off. You surround yourself with the people you love like his family, his kids, his parents, his brother, and that's the best way to do it. I mean, if you dwell on what you did -- BURNETT: Yes.

LUTTRELL: -- as a job, it just sucks you down. I mean, you can't think about it like that. I mean, we're there for one reason, one reason only. We do it, get it done, we get about our businesses.

BURNETT: Let me ask you a little bit more, so many people trying to understand that soldiers would go to a shooting range. In some sense, I think it's understandable, right? It's what they were used to, what they were comfortable with, and it could help with the transition.

There are reports, of course, as you're probably aware, that the alleged gunman -- his name was Eddie Ray Routh -- was struggling to adjust. He may have been on suicide watch, was suffering from PTSD.

And today, former Congressman Ron Paul tweeted about your friend, Chris. He said, "Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense."

Marcus, does it surprise you that Chris would have taken a young man like this who was so fragile to a shooting range to treat PTSD, or do you think that would have been normal and understandable?

LUTTRELL: Is that what he said, huh?

BURNETT: That's what Ron Paul said. Yes. What do you think about it?

LUTTRELL: What I think about it is probably not good for TV. But Chris -- he's not a professional doctor. He's not qualified to treat people for PTSD. That wasn't the thing. I mean, he was just going there to get this kid to hang out with him, to get his mind off of whatever it was on. And to have a good time, just to get him out of the house.

So, I don't think that whatever the reports are saying, you know, it's kind of being embellished a little bit. I don't think Chris was there to treat him for anything. I think he was there to hang out with him as a fellow veteran, and just trying to be a friend and someone just to hang out with.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Marcus, thank you very much for coming on and talking about your friend.

Chris Kyle appeared on Conan O'Brien's show to talk about his book and the bounty insurgents put on his head. You can see that interview on It's on our home page.

Well, one of the NRA's most vocal supporters, Ted Nugent, gives us an exclusive look at his ranch and the guns that he owns. During our visit, he makes a promise to America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TED NUGENT, GUITARIST/NRA BOARD MEMBER: America, my name is Ted Nugent and these are all legal guns and I'm going to see that they remain legal because they're all good.



BURNETT: Our fifth story OUTFRONT: shooting guns with Ted Nugent.

Our Deb Feyerick was invited in the rocker's ranch in Waco, Texas, to talk hunting, self-defense, and the Second Amendment.


NUGENT: Fire in the hole.


DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Ted Nugent, gun control is putting the second bullet in the same hole as the first.

NUGENT: Two down.

FEYERICK (on camera): A lot of people look at the tragedy at Sandy Hook and they say, something's got to be done.

NUGENT: Agreed, something has to be done.

FEYERICK: And they point to weapons that were used as the cause.

NUGENT: No. It's not the weapons. The weapons have nothing to do with it. These -- again, these weapons are in every pickup truck in Texas.

FEYERICK (voice-over): The same platinum selling rocker is passionate about his music, his family, and his firearms. Nugent is fiercely protective of the rights of law-abiding gun owners and he's invited us to his 300-acre ranch in Waco, Texas, to explain why.

NUGENT: I'll give you some real eye candy in a second here.

FEYERICK: We see Oryx, wild turkey and black buck antelope, all fair game during hunting season.

Like tens of millions of Americans, Nugent grew up hunting with his dad and brothers. Guns are a family tradition he has avidly passed on to his wife and kids.

(on camera): If somebody close to you were killed by a gunman, would your views on guns change?

NUGENT: Absolutely not. No, I would never turn against this wonderful tool that brings me self defense capabilities and brings me great joy in competition and marksmanship training.

Now, Deb, you climb up this platform.

FEYERICK (voice-over): I'm trying to understand the nature of the hunt.

NUGENT: When I get up here, Deb -- I'm not kidding you, I do 79 concerts, and I get up here, strap myself in, I take a deep breath and I sit here for six hours.

FEYERICK (on camera): So it's meditative to you?

NUGENT: Absolute meditation.

FEYERICK: Have you ever tried yoga?

NUGENT: I think this is a supreme yoga.

All right. Fire in the hall.

FEYERICK (voice-over): Nugent's passion for guns and unyielding belief in the Second Amendment right to bear arms has transformed Nugent into the sometimes fanatical face of the National Rifle Association.

NUGENT: Boy, you are a city girl.

FEYERICK (on camera): I'm such a city girl.

NUGENT: Stand kind of like you're golfing. Just squeeze that trigger.



(voice-over): As he teaches me gun safety, Nugent repeatedly emphasizes that gun violence is caused by criminals, mentally ill and a justice system that paroles felon too soon. He believes limiting guns and ammunition will not stop tragedies like the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary.

(on camera): The argument that was made is that he was allowed to kill as many people as he did because it had multiple bullets and he was able to just keep firing.

NUGENT: Yes, the rate of fire in these mass shootings, it's not a matter of bullets or fire power. A quail gun in the wrong hands is as deadly as this gun. People have got to come to that reality.

FEYERICK (voice-over): The ability to defend his family is something he takes very, very seriously.

NUGENT: When I'm being assaulted at my home, I and I alone, by any consideration whatsoever, will determine how many bullets I need to protect my family. FEYERICK: Nugent has been a sheriff's deputy for 30 years and carries a concealed Glock at all times.

(on camera): So I want you and I to solve this problem of gun violence.

NUGENT: There is no gun violence. There is criminal violence and they use an assortment of tools.

FEYERICK: Let's talk about background checks.

NUGENT: I like background checks.

FEYERICK (voice-over): Yes, but not at gun shows or with private sales.

(on camera): A lot of people in law enforcement have to take a psychological exam before they're allowed to carry. So, why not ordinary citizens?

NUGENT: I wrote "Wango Tango" and I carry a gun.

FEYERICK (voice-over): Nugent sticks to his guns literally. For him, the Second Amendment is nonnegotiable.

NUGENT: America, my name is Ted Nugent, and these are all legal guns and I'm going to see that they remain legal because they're all good.


BURNETT: They're all good. It was just amazing to see.

At the end there when you showed the guns, some with the pink camouflage, you said his wife is also into shooting, how many guns does he have?

FEYERICK: He's got over 200 guns. And he's got Israeli Uzis, he's got guns that are made in Romania, in Serbia. A lot of the Armalite, the AR series. AR doesn't stand for assault rifle. It stands for Armalite. He wants people to know the terms so that we can talk about these terms --

BURNETT: It can be AR-15s, so we talk about that Bushmaster that was used in Newtown.

FEYERICK: Right. Yes, he's one of those, too. He's got everything. He really has a big stockpile of guns. But to him, he collects them the way you and I might collect watches or collect cars, for example.


So, President Obama has said he doesn't have any intention of confiscating guns. That is not his goal. He's not trying to attack the Second Amendment. Nugent, though, doesn't believe him.



FEYERICK: He doesn't believe him at all because the way he sees it, he says, look, the majority of guns, 310 million guns are in the hands of law-abiding citizens. The minority are in the hands of criminal criminals. They're the ones who are committing the crimes.

That's why he says, why is the government coming after us saying we're going to ban the guns when we're not the ones who are doing anything? So, he focuses on criminality, on people who have mental illness, on making sure people stay in prisons long enough. But he says it's not the gun.

And that's really the point that the NRA is trying to convey as part of this debate that's going on in the country right now.

BURNETT: So what were they to do if there were a gun ban, just ignore it?

FEYERICK: Well, in many cases, yes, because how do enforce a gun ban? What do you do? If you take all the guns away tomorrow, people are out there who will find and get their hands on guns.

BURNETT: There are hundreds of millions of guns out there.

FEYERICK: Absolutely. Do you give them -- do you hand in your guns? That's the slippery slope that he sees, once you start in that direction, you're going to be giving up these things or law enforcement is going to be coming and trying to register them.

Or there's a whole series of reasons why they simply do not trust any sort of gun restriction in that way.

BURNETT: All right. Deb Feyerick, thank you very much.

And still to come, Vanilla Ice. A camel and I have something in common. I'll tell you what it is, next.


BURNETT: Super Bowl XLVII has come and gone. Last night in New Orleans, the Baltimore Ravens beat the San Francisco 49ers, 34-31. It was a closer game than many expected, which made it particularly nerve-racking for people who bet on the game, including me.

Every year, the Scripps Howard News Service asks journalists, actors, singers and athletes who they think will win the game and what the score will be. I play and I stink, OK? They input all the numbers and after the game, and they say who is the winner and who is closest to the final score.

So, big winner was Tony Sirico who you probably recognize as Paulie Walnuts from "The Sopranos". And you know what? Then it was me, I tied for second with two other people, both singers, namely Joan Jett and Vanilla Ice.

This is the first real connection I had to Vanilla Ice since high school. When I was in ninth grade, there was a boy who I liked and I thought he liked me. When I didn't kiss him, he and his friends would chant Vanilla Ice's --


BURNETT: Yes, right? Every time I walked past him, "Ice Ice Baby." I was scarred. It's amazing "Ice Ice Baby" doesn't give me nightmares. But you know what? I still love Vanilla Ice. But my rekindled link to Ice isn't the headline here.

The headline about my Super Bowl win was about a camel, Princess. Princess is a 26-year-old camel in New Jersey who has now correctly predicted eight of the past nine Super Bowl winners, including the Ravens last night. No other animals have a record that's even close. Every year, her owner writes the name of one team on each of his palms, then covers up the names with Graham Crackers. You know, you don't want her to read and cheat. The cracker Princess chooses to eat first reveals her pick.

And, yes, while it is exciting to be mentioned in the same sentence as Joan Jett and Vanilla Ice, I am even happier to be lumped in with the humps. Note, she had two.

"ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now.