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Erin Burnett Outfront
Police: Mall Shooter Expressed "Unhappiness" With Life; More Than 600 People Sick On Cruise Ship; University Of Missouri Under Fire; Hillary Clinton: Benghazi "Biggest" Regret
Aired January 27, 2014 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Next, new details about the gunman who terrorized a Maryland mall this weekend. What he wrote in his journal and what a friend says he planned to do today.
Plus, Hillary Clinton reveals her biggest regret as secretary of state and starts to distance herself from President Obama.
And why are some people calling the Grammys racist? Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening, everyone. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm Don Lemon in for Erin Burnett. Tonight, what made a Maryland teenager open fire at a mall this weekend terrorizing employees and customers? We're learning more tonight about 19-year-old Darren Aguilar who shot and killed two employees at a skateboard shop before turning the gun on himself.
His mother calls him a gentle, sweet kid, but police say that Aguilar's journal expressed general unhappiness with his life. The co-owner of the United Gun Shop where Darren Aguilar purchased his gun tells CNN that the 19-year-old visited the shop twice in December.
On his first visit, Aguilar purchased a shotgun for about $430 in cash, plus two boxes of ammunition and a couple weeks later Aguilar returned for another box of shotgun shells, but the big question still remains. Why did he open fire in the first place? Joe Johns is in Columbia, Maryland, with the very latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Saying he wanted something for home defense, Darian Aguilar legally purchased a Mossberg .50012 gauge shotgun and 48 shotgun shells. The owner of the United Gun Shop tells CNN there were no red flags. Both times Aguilar visited the shop he was accompanied by a friend.
Today at the scene of the shoot a makeshift memorial not far from the place where 21-year-old Brianna Benlolo and 25-year-old Tyler Johnson were shot to death by Aguilar. Columbia Mall reopened this afternoon for the first time since the shooting, though the store where the shooting occurred was boarded up until further notice. Customers said it was a sign of the times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it can happen anywhere. JOHNS: Police are still searching for a motive. They say Aguilar's journal told them something about his state of mind but not about his plans.
CHIEF BILL MCMAHON, HOWARD COUNTY POLICE: We retrieved a number of items of evidence, and included in that was a journal. In the journal there are writings that it's clear that he's unhappy with his -- his life and where he is right now.
JOHNS (on camera): OK. But -- but no clear indication as to a plan or to a motive or anything like that?
MCMAHON: No, and, again, I've not seen the journal. Investigators are still working through that, but nothing to point us to a motive.
JOHNS (voice-over): After the shooting, the gunman's mother reported her son did not show up at work at a local Dunkin' Donuts store. Police says she used a phone app to trace her son's cell phone from her home in College Park, Maryland to the mall in nearby Columbia, but at that point the damage had been done. In a tearful interview with reporters his mother struggled to come to grips with it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (via telephone): I don't know what happened, I really don't. It's so unusual. You can talk to any of his friend and find out what a gentle person he was. I just -- I don't know. He's never, never had a gun before, never been interested in guns.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS: Police say the shooter was supposed to start classes at a community college today. Police also say video cameras recorded at least part of the shooting, though it's not clear whether that's going to help them in determining a motive -- Don.
LEMON: Joe Johns, appreciate that, Joe. Joining me now HLN law enforcement analyst, Mike Brooks along with William Pollack, an associate clinical professor of psychology at Harvard Medical School. Thank you guys for joining us. Mike, I want to devote my first question to you.
MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Sure.
LEMON: in this case, like in New Town, the shooter was living with his mother, but Aguilar's mother said she saw no signs of any of this. How can someone in such close proximity not see anything unusual?
BROOKS: Well, I have a hard time believing it also, but many times, Don, people who are closest to let's say the shooter, they might not recognize any signs, and, you know, what was the family dynamic going on at the house with her and her son? And, you know, he said he bought the gun for home defense, had he discussed that with her? Did she not find it unusual that he had so much ammunition?
Because apparently during the search warrant they went to the house and found a large amount of ammunition, did she not find that unusual, and I would like to know if he was exhibiting any signs, ever had any history of any mental illness, because apparently he had no prior criminal background.
LEMON: But Dr. Pollack to you. The shooter's mother said he was gentle and a number of people who knew him have spoken out and said similar things about him. No one seems to have seen any real signs that he would do this. Is it possibly that there are some simple signs that no one noticed?
DR. WILLIAM POLLACK, ASSOCIATE CLINICAL PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: Of course there's a possibility. We can't be sure, but often looking back, a few days looking back, people start to say, well, he became more withdrawn or he was quiet, but he became more quiet or he seemed more sad. We heard in your report that he went with a friend to buy the gun. What was the friend thinking? Did the friend not report it since this was a young man who theoretically never bought any guns or ammunition.
So there are probably little signs, but we don't want to point blame. We want to understand what went on in this young man's head to make him feel that life wasn't worth living. This was clearly a murder- suicide. This was clearly a young man who health hopeless and wanted to die.
LEMON: Mike, you know, we have seen too many shootings recently in very recent weeks in public places, the mall, movie theater, grocery store. Do we need a new level of public security, more law enforcement?
BROOKS: Well, Don, cops can't be every place, you know, all the time, and, you know, we have to take it upon ourselves, citizens do, to be aware of your situation. I call it situational awareness. No matter if you're at a move theater, at a mall, you know, when you're on vacation. When you go into some place just kind of look around and go, well, what if? What if something started happening here? What would I do? Would I run? Would I fight this person if he was close to me? You know, it's one of these things you've just got to -- if you see something, you have to say something, and don't be afraid to do that.
LEMON: Don't be afraid of someone calling you out.
BROOKS: Right.
LEMON: Go ahead, doctor. You want to say something?
POLLACK: I absolutely agree with that, but peremptorily, beforehand, if we notice a friend of ours didn't seem the same, all of a sudden they are buying ammunition. We shouldn't be afraid to go to someone in a position of authority to say I'm worried about this young man. Maybe he's not going to shoot anybody except himself, which is bad enough, but we have a society where there's so much disconnection and people are afraid to come forward because they are afraid they are snitching or they are looking to someone else's business. In fact, we're disconnected society. If people saw anything and said anything beforehand, maybe not here but in these other situations, the situation would never have happened.
LEMON: Yes.
POLLACK: So we have to do something that's caring and connected before it happens, not just during and while it happens.
LEMON: Many times when people are having problems or their personalities change in some way people back away from them because they don't want to be involved or they are not acting like themselves. I don't want to be a part of that when the exact opposite should happen. Glad you said that.
Dr. Pollack, I want to follow up on this. You talked about where he chose to do it. Doesn't sound like he knew his victims, but he certainly chose a very public place to commit the act. What motivates someone to kill people they don't even know in such a public location?
POLLACK: We're into assumptions. We don't know if he didn't know them, but assuming, he didn't know them. The public location is telling people look at pain I'm in. Look at how I've been suffering. Look at what's been done to me and look at how hopeless I am and no one cares. Well, now, people are going to care. Unfortunately, in a very painful way and in a very negative way, in a way that maybe beforehand they could have been more caring and we would have avoided this terrible tragedy.
LEMON: Dr. Pollack, Mike Brooks, thank you very much. Appreciate both of you. Make sure you tune on Wednesday, this coming Wednesday, OUTFRONT is going to begin a special series on mental health. It's called "Kids In Crisis, Fragile Minds," and we'll take a closer look at how difficult it is for children and families to get the help and treatment they need for mental health problems. Make sure you stay tuned for that.
Still to come tonight on CNN, a major American university under fire tonight over how it handled an alleged rape involving a football player.
Plus, more than 600 people sick on a cruise ship. We're going to talk to one of the passengers stranded on board that ship.
And the latest about Justin Bieber's drinking, are his friends about to stage an intervention?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Tonight, a nasty illness has struck again aboard a cruise ship. More than 600 passengers and crew on a Royal Caribbean's "Explorer of the Seas" are stuck in their beds dealing with vomiting and diarrhea. The Centres for Disease Control now on board that ship, trying to identify the source of the outbreak. Cruise officials are now cutting the trip short. They are expected back in New Jersey on Wednesday.
One of the passengers, the mayor of Easton, Pennsylvania, Sal Panto Jr. joins me now by phone. Mayor, most of the people who are sick, are they quarantined in their rooms? Have you talked to anyone who has been infected, Mayor? SAL PANTO JR., ABOARD "EXPLORER OF THE SEAS" (via telephone): Yes, I've talked to people, and they were quarantined for at least 24 hours if they went down to the infirmary. I think the bigger problem is those people who felt ill and went back to their state room and never really reported it. I do know one person who was feeling ill so she went into her state room, but didn't report it so the 600, may be another 600 for all I know.
LEMON: Usually on a cruise ship everybody is out and about, enjoying, food is free, out drinking and by the pool getting some sun. Take us on board the cruise ship and tell us what that's correct appearance is like now?
PANTO: Well, three days ago I would say it was more like a ghost ship. Obviously more people were confined to their state rooms and more people were more cautious about getting into public areas. I would say today was back to normal. The pool deck was crowded. People were dancing to the band, getting some sun. The talk about the illness going around was rampant and some people were very, very upset and some people were taking it in stride.
LEMON: The CEO of Royal Caribbean Cruises defended his company there saying, you know, his practices saying they screened passengers. Did you see anything like this, anything like screening passengers before you got on board?
PANTO: No. Unfortunately, I really I would have to tell you the truth that we saw people who were deathly sick, sneezing and hacking and coughing and blowing their noise and when you got up to the registration desk and give you that health form and say were you sick in the last 24 hours, vomited in the last 48 hours, I'm sure they put no. Maybe the cruise line could recommend that maybe, you know, if you are sick and you don't sail you get your refund. People have already taken off from work and paid their cruise. They don't want to lose their money so they came on board.
LEMON: Our thanks to Mayor Sal Panto.
Some other headlines that we're following for you tonight, a new threat in Sochi, militants writing on an Islamist web site today said, quote, "Russia has been warned." It's symbolic because also today a runner carried the Olympic torch through the capital of Dagestan, an area plagued by terrorism.
With the recent bombings a few hours away in Volgograd that killed 34 people, the threats are much too real for some athletes. Olympic cross-country skier, Roberto Carselin, tells CNN his family is staying in the U.S. because it would be too stressful to worry about their safety while he competes.
A multi-agency search in Texas has been called off for a woman who vanished ten days ago. The story of Leanne Hecht Bearden is one we first brought you just last week. Well, Bearden had traveled the world for nearly two years with her husband without any major incident, but a month after their return to the U.S., she went out for a walk near San Antonio but never returned. Investigators do not suspect foul play and they have no solid leads, so far. They're ending the search for now. Before her disappearance, the Beardens plan on returning to Denver to look for jobs.
Still to come, Macklemore won all of the major rap awards at last night's Grammys. Did he win because he's White?
A major American university under fire tonight over how it handled an alleged rape involving a football player.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The University of Missouri under fire tonight after an ESPN investigation suggested it may not have properly investigated allegations of rape. A former Missouri swimmer, Sasha Menu Courey, says she had been sexually assaulted by a member of the football team in 2010, but Courey committed suicide in 2011.
University officials say there was no formal complaint and were unaware of the incident, but new information has now surfaced. George Howell is in Columbia with the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She came to the University of Missouri to fulfill a childhood dream, to become a competitive swimmer. Sasha Menu Courey made the swim team on scholarship in 2009, but the following year, something happened that changed the course of her promising college career, something her parents didn't learn about until after she died.
LYNN COUREY, SASHA MENU COUREY'S MOTHER: People were telling us that she had been raped and she wrote it in her journal.
HOWELL: In light of a 16-month investigation by ESPN's "Outside the Lines" program, new questions are being raised about what the university knew about the alleged assault and when officials knew it.
According to the report, in February of 2010 after a night out drinking with friends, Courey admitted to going home with a former university football player off campus and having consensual sex, but months later, she told a rape crisis counselor and wrote in her journal that after the former football player left, another football player entered the room, locked the door, and raped her.
Courey's parents say their daughter also talked about the alleged assault with a campus nurse and a campus doctor 11 months after the alleged attack. In 2012, the local paper reported that, quote, "Menu Courey she also wrote in her diary months later that she was sexually assaulted at the end of her freshman year."
The school never launched an investigation. Officials say they weren't notified by the nurse or doctor due to the policy of not reporting sexual assaults without a victim's consent. Courey's parents say she already suffered from a long history depression, and in the months to follow, she became more and more depressed. In 2011, Sasha Courey took her own life.
COUREY: We lost our daughter and we cannot bring her back, but we can make a difference for others.
HOWELL: School officials say they later discovered and turned over to Courey's parents a transcript of her conversation with a rape crisis counselor. They also sent her parents a letter asking if they wanted the matter investigated, but officials say her parents never responded.
MIKE MENU, SASHA MENU COAREY'S FATHER: We did not feel supported in this letter. This letter was a check the boxes letter. And really, to be honest it did not deserve a response
HOWELL: The question, did the university have an obligation to act even without the parent's response? According to Title IX, a federal law that guarantees college men and women are equally protected on campus. Universities are legally required to investigate allegations of rape, even if the alleged victim is no longer alive.
BRETT SOKOLOW, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR ASSOC OF TITLE IX ADMINISTRATION: I don't sense that there's any clear evidence of a cover-up at this point. I certainly think the university should have been a little more proactive at trying to bring in information and find out more.
HOWELL: The head of the University of Missouri System now acknowledges the case needs to be investigated. President Tim Wolfe (ph) declined our request to speak on camera but put out a statement late Sunday saying he is, quote, "asking the board of curators to hire outside independent counsel to conduct an investigation of MU's handling of matters related to Miss Courey."
The university and its defense is already raising privacy concerns for Courey saying in a statement, quote, "Victims of sexual assault need to know that they can seek medical care without the concern that reports will be made to police or campus officials without their consent." Otherwise, some victims will be deterred from seeking medical care.
(on-camera) The university is conducting its own independent investigation and the case has been turned over to Columbia police. Officials say they're moving forward only now because of that ESPN report mentioning specific names of people who may have relevant information about the alleged assault.
George Howell, CNN, Columbia, Missouri.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right. George, thank you very much for that.
Now, I want to bring in Mel Robbins. She is a former legal aide and a criminal defense attorney. Hello, Mel. This is a complicated case that we're talking about here. Is the University of Missouri at fault? MEL ROBBINS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. You know, Don, it is a complicated case, but I think it's important for people to understand something very simple which is if, in fact, there was a crime committed, it happened -- the university didn't find out until two years after the fact, Don, and they only found out based on everything that's in the public record right now based on a newspaper article.
And so, unlike the case, for example, with Penn State where there was a paper trail and there were many people inside the university that knew about the allegations against Sandusky, there simply isn't that evidence here in this case, at least, not right now.
LEMON: You're talking about Title IX, because under Title IX, if the university was aware of the situation that there had been allegations of a sexual assault, they were obligated to investigate, and you're saying that they were not aware at that time.
ROBBINS: Not at all. So, this happened her freshman year, Don. That's when the allegations are -- are made, and it was two years later that a newspaper article about the sexual assault came to light and was e-mailed to the school. If they don't know about it, they can't be liable for failing to investigate.
Yes, once they hear about it, they should be investigating it, but this is also a case, Don, and I think it's important for women in particular to hear this. If you're talking about a rape to a rape crisis counselor, to a pastor, or to a medical professional, they are not obligated and cannot, in fact, report the incident under the Federal Cleary Act.
LEMON: Unless you give them permission, right?
ROBBINS: Correct.
LEMON: If you give them permission, right? Can we talk about the parents --
ROBBINS: Yes. You know, Don -- go ahead. I'm sorry.
LEMON: Can we talk about the parents? They say that they aren't looking to sue the university. They just want the case investigated. So, how difficult is it going to be in this case to prove a case like this?
ROBBINS: Well, you can't prove the rape. I mean, first of all, you have the only witness to the rape, she's deceased. She took her own life, Don. It's a tragic story. You also have her journal which I'm not sure they could even admit into evidence.
The only wrinkle in this is that she has a very good friend that was a member of the football team, and in the interview that I saw that ESPN did, he claims that he confronted the three men that were supposedly at the apartment that night, and in the interview says that he saw some cell phone footage of the attack. Now, why he didn't go to the police with this? I don't know.
LEMON: Yes.
ROBBINS: There's one other thing, though, Don, that I think you'll find interesting which is the year that the rape allegedly took place was 2010, and some of you may remember that there was a star player on University of Missouri's team named Derrick Washington (ph) who was charged with raping somebody in 2010, and he was convicted and sentenced in 2011.
And so, University of Missouri is also, as far as I'm concerned, has an issue where they should be investigating this because the number of forcible sexual incidents was reported as two in 2009. It jumped to 11, Don, in 2010.
LEMON: Interesting. Mel Robbins, thank you. Appreciate your expertise on this.
Still to come, Hillary Clinton talks about what's next for her. Plus, she reveals her biggest regret.
Also ahead, Justin Bieber hangs out in Panama, but he is not alone on that beach. Did Usher fly in for an intervention?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Tonight, Hillary Clinton addressing potentially her biggest weakness head on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: You know, my -- my biggest regret is what happened in Benghazi. It was a terrible tragedy, losing four Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And with President Obama's poll numbers down in his second term, Clinton tried to distance herself from her former boss moments earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: You know, I had disagreements with President Bush, but, yes, I also had some disagreements with President Obama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So what is the biggest liability for a Clinton 2016 campaign? Is it Benghazi, or is it President Obama?
Joining me now is former adviser to former President Bill Clinton, Paul Begala, and conservative columnist Reihan Salam.
Thanks to both of you for joining us.
Paul, to you first. You just heard Secretary Clinton there. That wasn't Republicans bringing up Benghazi. It was Hillary Clinton herself. Are you supposed to -- are surprised, I should say, that she address this issue head on?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, that's how she is. She's a completely candid person. She's very up front. And, you know, you'd have to be both soft-headed and hard-hearted to not go through what she went through at the State Department and not single that out as the most tragic day that she had there, just as I'm sure President Bush and Condoleezza Rice are heartbroken over the 13 times embassies and consulates were attacked while they were president.
You know, America puts these people into harm's way. We've got to do a better job of protecting them. I would point out that my Republican friends who run the Congress have been funding embassy security at a lower level than the president and Hillary has been asking them to fund that security. In the case of Benghazi it turns out I don't think it would have made a difference candidly, but fundamentally, we have to protect the people we put in harm's way.
LEMON: Reihan, your take on -- you heard her there. Do you think she was distancing herself from the president? Is it the right political move if so?
REIHAN SALAM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I definitely think she was distancing herself from the president and it makes sense. Look, she had very distinctive political profile. She had different views when she run against him the first time around, and I think that now, given that President Obama is very unpopular, it makes sense for her to frame herself as being different, as being a change agent once again. So, I think that she's right to do so.
LEMON: I want to talk about the potential problem for Clinton because, you know, you saw Rand Paul. He addressed this problem, comments that he made about -- his wife Kelly made to "Vogue", I should say magazine, to Hillary Clinton's presidential run could be derailed by her husband's, quote, "predatory behavior" predatory behavior with Monica Lewinsky.
Senator Paul doubled down on his wife's dig. I want you to take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: I think the media seems to have given President Clinton a pass on this. He took advantage of a girl that was 20 years old and an intern in his office. There is no excuse for that, and that is predatory behavior.
DAVID GREGORY, NBC NEWS: But is that something that Hillary Clinton should be judged on if she were a candidate in 2016?
PAUL: No, I'm not saying that. This is with regard to the Clintons, and sometimes it's hard to separate one from the other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Hard to separate one from the other. I saw you shaking your head there as you were watching it. Do you think it's a fair critique?
SALAM: You know, I think that it's very foolish for Rand Paul to talk about what happened back in the late '90s. I think it makes a lot more sense to talk about Bill Clinton and who he's been associating with since that time. There's a terrific article by Alec MacGillis in "The New Republic", a left to center magazine, by the guy called Doug Band, who has been one of Bill Clinton's right-hand man for a long time.
And there are a lot of questions about some of the people Bill Clinton has been associating himself with. And, again, Hillary Clinton is a separate person, but if that's going to be the thing that populist Democrats --
LEMON: Why is that a concern or a question about who --
SALAM: Well, I think, you know, Bill Clinton is both a great asset. He's the great explainer. He's someone who is going to be very present. He's going to loom over Hillary Clinton's presidential prospects. On the other hand, he can also be a liability.
So I think it's foolish to talk about Monica Lewinsky. Let's talk more about the present. Let's talk more about what's happening in recent years.
LEMON: Yes.
Paul, you want to weigh in on that?
BEGALA: Yes, I'm burdened by the fact that I know Doug Band. He's a great guy. He's a terrific guy. He now has his own business. He no longer works for President Clinton.
But the notion that you can effectively attack Hillary by attacking a guy who used to work for her husband. I think what's going on with Rand Paul, by the way, is -- I don't know if you read it, "New York Times", Sam Tanenhaus, had a major article this weekend about Rand Paul and some of the folks politically that he's been associated with, was about to say who he's in bed with politically, but I don't want crass.
But he's been associated with politically with some really eccentric folks like neo-secessionist, people who don't support civil rights, people who think maybe the South was right in the civil war. I mean, really --
LEMON: You guys are -- you guys are getting way into the weeds here. But when you're running for president, if she does run, isn't everything fair game? Everyone who you've been in business with, your spouse -- everything is fair game, no?
BEGALA: Nonsense, nonsense.
LEMON: Why not?
BEGALA: I've run campaigns for president. LEMON: It's fair game for Barack Obama, for Bill Clinton, for George W. Bush, for -- no?
BEGALA: No, hell no, no. There ought to be some honor in this life of politics and I've been in it all my adult life. You don't go after family. You certainly don't go after children.
We saw a terrible blowup in a different network when someone really unfortunately and unfairly criticized Mitt Romney's grandchild. It's crazy.
No, you don't go after family. You don't go after somebody's marriage, my goodness. You know, look, Ronald Reagan had a failed marriage and Republicans love him. President Clinton and Hillary have had a successful marriage despite their problems. SALAM: It's not about family and it's not about these attacks. The truth is that Democratic Party has changed since the '90s and there's an appetite for new faces. I think that Hillary Clinton's support is broad, but it's very shallow, and I think if you look at a guy like Brian Schweitzer, the former governor of Montana, he's someone who's a populist, he's someone capturing some of that left wing energy.
While on the other hand having a cultural profile that's different from the Clintons who went from Arkansas to wind up in New York. They're part of this global circle. They're very close to Wall Street.
I think Democrats want something different, and I think that's the liability for Hillary Clinton.
LEMON: Reihan and Paul, hang on, stand by. I have to go. Just one answer, please. Don't expound.
What is the biggest threat for Hillary Clinton -- Benghazi, Bill Clinton, or Barack Obama? Reihan?
SALAM: Bill Clinton.
LEMON: Paul?
BEGALA: Which is a bigger threat for the Denver Broncos, Wes Welker or Peyton Manning? That's crazy. Those two presidents, one current, one former, are huge assets.
LEMON: All right. Paul, are you going to answer the question or no?
BEGALA: I just did. I'm sorry, it's a silly question. President Obama, he's won two in a row.
LEMON: No such thing as a silly question. Which one do you think is a bigger threat, Benghazi, Bill Clinton or Barack Obama?
BEGALA: It's not a threat. First of all, Clinton and Obama are assets to them, Don.
LEMON: So, I guess you won't answer. Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it.
BEGALA: It's a stilly question.
LEMON: Thank you very much. Appreciate you both joining us.
SALAM: Thank you.
LEMON: Is it intervention time for Justin Bieber? The embattled teen pop star left Miami over the weekend and has been seen strolling the beaches in Panama with members of his entourage. Justin Bieber's mentor, R&B singer Usher, has also been spotted down there. And you can see him, he's posing for a picture with the same fan as Justin Bieber. But it's not clear if Usher is in Panama with a serious heart-to-heart with the teen.
Joining us now is Lindsay Lohan's father, Michael Lohan.
Michael, thank you for joining us again here on CNN.
You know, it's been reported that you staged a number of interventions to try to get Lindsay into treatment. Is it time for an intervention for Justin Bieber?
MICHAEL LOHAN, LINDSAY LOHAN'S FATHER: Well, I think so, but, then again, it's all about the approach. There's different kinds of intervention. There's a staged intervention which they do on the show "Intervention" and (INAUDIBLE) did so many times, where you actually bring a person to a controlled environment with all the people that care about him and want him in treatment. And then there's an extreme intervention, where you actually go to the person.
But then again, if you went to Justin in the situation he's in, it could be a hostile environment where the people don't want him in treatment and you don't know if they're going to be supportive or not. So like we do with Dream Recovery International, we kind of weigh the situation out and see who he is with.
So, I don't know -- you're saying he's with his entourage down there, probably the same people from Miami. They're probably not the best people to be around him and they're probably not the people who want him to get into treatment. So I would really try to get him to a controlled setting rather than go and try to approach him.
LEMON: I understand you tell our producers that you see a lot of similarities between your daughter and Justin Bieber. Over the summer, Lindsay completed a court-ordered 90-day stay in rehab.
LOHAN: Yes.
LEMON: I mean, if Bieber needs treatment, what will it take for him to realize that? Will a court have to come in and order it?
LOHAN: Don, there's so many different things that could happen. I mean, who knows what a person's epiphany or their bottom is going to be. I mean, only they do. A court sometimes that would -- I mean, wake them up. I mean, the light bulb would go on and say, hey, listen, if I -- if it's jail or going to rehab, I'll go to rehab, but then again, that might be the wrong reason. You shouldn't have to go to rehab just because you're facing jail time. You should want to.
But then again, I can't say sometimes when you're forced into a position, it doesn't stick sometimes and it doesn't, have you know, a good effect own. So, you know, it's really up to Justin. I think you should really take time to sit back and look at where his life is now and where it was and where it could go, but he's so caught up in the everyday life of living like a star and running amuck with all this -- you know, the partying and having fun and doing the wrong thing. He doesn't take time to sit and think about it, and the people around him sure aren't saying, listen, Justin. You've got to do something, you know.
You know, I think his mom is now at some point, but you need two parents on the same page. And I hope his parents do get on the same page together.
LEMON: Thank you very much. Michael Lohan, appreciate it.
Still to come, Macklemore took home the Grammy for the best rap album. Did he win because he's white?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Time now to check in with Anderson to see what's coming up on "AC360." What do you have?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Don. Yes, ahead tonight on the program, a remarkable and powerful story of a father whose mentally ill son nearly slashed him to death before taking his own life. Tonight, Virginia State Senator Creigh Deeds talk about his only son Gus in a raw and emotional interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CREIGH DEEDS, VIRGINIA STATE SENATOR: There are so many good pictures. There are so many good memories and that's what I have to focus on.
You know, I'm determined that Gus not be remembered just for his illness or what ended his life. I mean, that's nothing. He was such a good boy, good man. He had a good heart. He loved people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We'll have an in-depth interview with Creigh Deeds. Tonight, you're going to hear why he says the system failed his son and what he's doing to make sure it doesn't happen again -- Don.
LEMON: Very emotional interview, it looks like. Thanks, Anderson. We'll be watching. You know, last night, the Grammys were handed out and despite the fact that the telecast features a surprise appearance from Madonna, a mass wedding and Beatles reunion most of the talk is about the rapper Macklemore who won four awards. In addition to trophy for best artist, he swept the best categories winning for best rap album, best rap performance and best rap song.
He's a very popular performer, and yet there's controversy surrounding his wins. Most of the focus has been on race, he's white and some are even asking, are the Grammys racist? It's everywhere. If you've read it today, you've seen it.
For more on the story, I'm joined now by Grammy Award-winning rapper Coolio, the editor of "The Wall Street Journal's" entertainment blog, "The Speak Easy", Christopher John Farley, and the CEO of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation, Joel Peresman.
Thanks to all of you.
I bet you never my thought you'd probably be on a panel talking to Coolio, right? How cool is that?
(CROSSTALK)
COOLIO, RAPPER: How you doing, man?
LEMON: Good to see you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good to talk to you.
LEMON: So, did Macklemore do you think deserve to win? Is he the future of hip hop or does rap need to evolve, do you think?
COOLIO: I think that he did win, you know, he had the best song. I mean, his song was -- was, you know, very -- it was very timely. I mean, with the controversy surrounding gay marriage and, you know, all the other things, you know, involved with -- with being gay and all the activism. I think that, you know, he had the right song at the right time.
Now, as far as best rap album, I heard his album and heard some other people's albums. I don't think he had the best rap album, but I do think he had the most timely and best, you know, song, and it was well thought out and planned. I mean, you know?
LEMON: All right. I'll ask that question to Chris. But Coolio answered. Is it a good answer? What do you think? Does rap need to evolve, do you think, or did he have the best rap album?
CHRISTOPHER JOHN FARLEY, WSJ ENTERTAINMENT BLOG: Well, I think Coolio is exactly right. One of the reasons Macklemore won is that he had a song "Same Love" that dealt with issues people were dealing with right, about same-sex marriage. It was something that other people in hip hop weren't talk about. I think if other rappers have a problem with him winning, they need to come up with songs, too, that address issues people --
LEMON: Talking about homophobia back in 2005.
FARLEY: Not --
LEMON: Not in his music.
FARLEY: Not in a way that was upfront and not in a way that was engaging or as controversial at "Same Love." He doesn't have an anthem about same sex marriage. He merely made some comments, made some references to it in his music. It was not as up front as it was --
LEMON: So my question about evolving, because it seems Macklemore is socially conscious. He's talking about things in the culture. Do rap artists, hip-hop artists need to raise the conversation?
FARLEY: Here's the other thing. There's other great albums out there. I mean, the Kendrick Lamar album is a terrific album
(CROSSTALK)
FARLEY: He has a great album. By Kanye West, I mean, if you listen to Jay-Z album, one of the better album of his career. So, that's what makes people upset, the fact there was other great stuff out there and --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let me read this quote by Kanye West. He says, "I'm 36 years old and I have 21 Grammys. That's the most Grammys out of 36-year- olds. Out of all of those 21 Grammys, I've never won a Grammy against a white artist."
So, Coolio, you've won a Grammy Award. Do white performers get preferential treatment, do you think?
COOLIO: Well, I'm not going to necessarily say that they get preferential treatment. But they have the opportunity to become more popular than -- than, you know, than some African-American or other race artists.
I think that because they are white they, you know, they get -- they sometimes get more -- they get more air play. They are on more talk shows. They are, you know, sought out by more people because they are more mainstream.
And Macklemore is clean cut. And Macklemore is not some fly-by-night kid. He's been in the business for a long time, I mean, you know. I mean, so -- I don't think -- I don't think that he won because he was white. I think he that -- maybe he won all of them because he's white.
LEMON: OK, go ahead, Joel.
JOEL PERESMAN, PRESIDENT & CEO, THE ROCK AND ROLL HALL OF FAME: Hip- hop and rap music like all music is always evolving. I think one thing you don't want to get away from in all this news here is how great all the people in that category were, and the produce they made. And any time you categorize something in an awards show like that, someone's going to win and some people aren't. And it's always going to create controversy.
It's going to be good for music in general.
LEMON: Only four hip hop acts in Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Does rap need to -- does rap get the respect that it deserves?
PERESMAN: I think it gets the attention for the artists it needs, I think it needs to get more. I mean, I think the appropriate artists are there --
LEMON: Coolio is going no.
PERESMAN: I think we need more. People that are going to be in there. It's interesting because, you know, the definition of rock 'n' roll is really broad. And we deal with this all the time, that people think it has no place in the rock 'n' roll hall of fame, but we think it does.
LEMON: Why did you say no, Coolio?
COOLIO: If you look at hip-hop, hip-hop has been the most popular music for the last 20 years. So, excuse my French, but, hell yes (ph), people act like rappers aren't creative, but actually they're a lot more creative than people give them credit for.
A lot of singers -- exactly, a lot of singers, they don't write their own songs. Most rappers write their own material. They come up with their own shows, do everything for themselves, whereas you take the R&B artists or a lot of folk singers or whatever, they don't do anything, they just got a good voice.
LEMON: Last night, Joel, we saw two living Beatles perform, it's been 50 years since they performed on the Ed Sullivan Show.
Which current artist do you think will have the staying power, if any, like The Beatles?
PERESMAN: Yes. I think that's one of the beautiful things that we love celebrating at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, is it takes a while for someone to be inducted. So, I think you'll see that a lot of these artists of today, whether it's Mumford and Sons, or whether it's Pearl Jam, whether it's Green Day, a lot of these artists who have been pumping out music for a long time, have a real opportunity to stick around and be creative for a long time, will they be 50 years? That's a wonderful thing about this genre. You'll see what happens.
LEMON: You said Green Day --
PERESMAN: I say there's Green Day -- (CROSSTALK)
PERESMAN: -- Pearl Jam, there's plenty -- there's so many artists that are making such great music now.
LEMON: Any rap or hip hop artists that are going to be around.
PERESMAN: Look, made great music. Public Enemy's made great music. There's people that are going to be --
LEMON: Going to be as iconic as the Beatles or Michael Jackson.
PERESMAN: Eminem, even though he's not black, is he going to be -- Jay-Z unquestionably is the kind of person that has the staying power to be relevant in a long time in the future.
FARLEY: Well, obviously, I think Kanye is headed to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame at some point. And the Fugees in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame at some point. So, there are a lot of great hip-hop acts at some point, should make it to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
But I think it's interesting you mention the British invasion, because I think we see history repeat itself. I mean, obviously, the Beatles are terrific. But --
COOLIO: I don't see you mention Coolio.
(LAUGHTER)
FARLEY: You were there, making yourself.
COOLIO: I don't think I'm feeling that very much.
FARLEY: I'd like for you to do it, man.
COOLIO: I'll tell you who was important -- one of the most important artists at the Grammys last night that performed, that's Pink. Pink is incredible. She did an incredible performance. I mean, she does that -- come on, who does circus acts and circus --
LEMON: It's like watching Cirque du Soleil, right?
COOLIO: She's off the chain.
LEMON: All right, Coolio.
COOLIO: That's who we should be talking about now.
LEMON: Thank you, guys. Thank you. I appreciate all of you, great conversation, we were talking about the Beatles.
As we mentioned, it was 50 years ago the Beatles arrived in the United States for their first American tour. You can watch the British invasion unfold as it happens. "The British Invasion", it premiers Thursday night, 9:00 Eastern, right here on CNN.
Great conversation again. Thanks to all of you.
Still to come, there was another star at last night's Grammys, Jeanne Moos takes a look at Pharrell's hat, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, forget Macklemore and Daft Punk. The big winner at yesterday's Grammy's was Pharrell's hat.
And today, just about everyone had something to say about it. Here's Jeanne Moos.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You'd think Pharrell Williams had two heads -- by how much fuss everyone made over his hat.
Pointing out the similarity to Smokey the Bear, making Canadian mounty comparisons.
The co-hosts of "The Talk" paid homage to the half-worn at the Grammys, by trying to imitate it.
When's the last time you heard a hat get enthusiastic applause.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His hat was an even bigger winner.
MOOS: Close second in the winner department was Arby's for the hat joke heard around the world. "Hey, @pharrell, can we have our hat back?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he actually responded to that say, you all trying to start a roast beef.
MOOS: Pharrell thought the Arby's roast beef joke was well done.
PHARRELL WILLIAMS, SINGER: It's cool, man. Thank you. I appreciate it.
MOOS: His hat has it own Twitter account, who gave a shout-out to the hats worn by Yoko Uno and her son, and bragged, I'm definitely more fashionable than Madonna's grill -- fighting commentary for a hat.
"BuzzFeed" speculated on things that might be hiding under Pharrell's hat, a dancing baby, Justin Bieber's Lamborghini.
(on camera): Pharrell needs is a hard hat to wear over his Grammy's hat, to protect from all the mockery.
(voice-over): One critic tweeted, "Pharrell hat looked like a big toe."
Yes, well, at least this is a designer big toe.
WILLIAMS: It's Vivian Westwood. It's a buffalo hat.
MOOS: Featured in the Malcolm McLaren music video, "Buffalo Gals," considered classic really hip hop.
(MUSIC)
MOOS: The hat do-si-do'd up the runway in Vivian Westwood's 1982-'83 fall collections.
(on camera): Bored with your old hat? You too can own the exact same hat that Pharrell wore to the Grammys for mere $157.
(voice-over): They call it the mountain hat on Westwood's World's End Web site, that was also known as the jelly mold hat. Even Daft Punk's helmets couldn't compete with Pharrell's hat. It inspired Neil Patrick Harris to tweet, "Only Pharrell Williams can prevent forest fires."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the Grammy goes to --
MOOS: Pharrell's hat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To me, it looks like Smokey the Bear, and Dudley Do Right had a biracial.
MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All of a sudden, I want a roast beef sandwich.
"AC360" starts right now.
