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Erin Burnett Outfront
Gunman Still on the Run in Portland; Massive manhunt for gunman in Portland, Oregon; Interview with Eric Gardner's nephew; Details of Tamir Rice's Autopsy Revealed; Mudslides Engulf California Homes; Dow Suffers Worst Weekly Lost In More Than 3 Years
Aired December 12, 2014 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news. A manhunt in Portland, Oregon. Police searching for a gunman who shot and wounded four people outside a high school.
Plus protests are growing across the nation including a large march in Boston at this hour, the night before massive demonstrations in Washington, D.C. and cities across the United States, all to protest police-involved deaths of young black men.
And the latest Cosby accuser, her story similar to other women's accounts of a night with the comedian that started with the drugged drink. So what could the drug be? We tackle that question tonight.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
And a good Friday evening to all of you. I'm Erin Burnett. And we begin OUTFRONT tonight with breaking news.
Police in Portland, Oregon, conducting a massive manhunt for a gunman after four people were shot just outside a high school in North Portland. Witnesses say that the victims, two males and two females, were shot just outside Rosemary Anderson High School. At least three of them -- and we at this point only know of three -- that were able to get inside to try to get help. One student describes seeing one of the victims as he made his way inside.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT: I saw him stumbling in the school, holding his stomach and he said my brother's name and he fell on the ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Police say one victim was treated at the scene, the other three suffered serious wounds, were described, though, as breathing when they were transported to a nearby hospital.
Police tonight assisted by the FBI are searching for at least one gunman and possibly two accomplices as this story is still developing tonight.
Pamela Brown is OUTFRONT. And Pamela, what do we know about the manhunt?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is still active and underway as we speak, Erin. Right now we know that authorities on the ground in Portland, Oregon, local authorities as well as federal authorities, the FBI, ATF, are assisting in this investigation and looking for the gunman. Sources tell us it's believed that the gunman is a member of a gang. This is possibly a gang-related shooting.
So not only are they looking for the person who pulled the trigger and shot these four people according to authorities there but they're also looking for anyone else who may have been with this person, perhaps other gang members who could have been with this person.
So as we speak, authorities are canvassing the area looking for anyone who may have been a part of this shooting earlier this afternoon around 3:15 p.m. Eastern Time. But it is telling that the lockdown at the school there, at the high school in Portland, has been lifted. If authorities thought that the members of the public there were in harm's way because this gunman was on the loose, you would think they would handle it very differently. So that is a good sign.
We know that the four victims here, one a 19-year-old woman, suffered from a grazing wound. Also a 16-year-old girl in critical condition. A 17-year-old boy and a -- 20-year-old man is in serious condition tonight recovering at the hospital -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Pamela. As we know in critical condition we know, and are wishing for them as they are fighting tonight to -- for their lives.
And more breaking news. Protesters gathering around the nation. Want to show you some live pictures of a large crowd marching in Cambridge, Massachusetts, right outside the Boston, kicking off a weekend of major protests.
You can see obviously it's dark there right now but you can see the crowds. That street is completely full. You've got hundreds of people, at least even in the shot we can see, marching there right now.
Police are preparing for thousands, many thousands of demonstrators on the streets of Washington, D.C. tomorrow. A massive rally which is called the National March against Police Violence. It's organized by the Reverend Al Sharpton and the march will cap what has been called a week of outrage over police involved deaths, in particular those of Eric Garner, Michael Brown and other young black men in this nation.
The families of Garner and Brown are expected to attend the march along with thousands coming from around the country to Washington to join.
OUTFRONT tonight Eric Garner's nephew, Gabriel Baez.
And Gabriel, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us tonight. I know you're going to be going down to Washington. GABRIEL BAEZ, NEPHEW OF ERIC GARNER: Yes. Yes.
BURNETT: You're going to be a part of this rally.
BAEZ: Of course.
BURNETT: Why is this rally so important to you? And how do you feel about going to Washington D.C. for this?
BAEZ: I think it's important because we need to build awareness for the situation that is going on right here in America. Well, that's probably abroad, too, because we know there's a lot of situation going on out there, but here, to build awareness that the relationship between the police and (INAUDIBLE) and my community, the hood, whatever you want to call it, we're not seeing eye-to-eye and we're not meshing with each other.
BURNETT: Right.
BAEZ: So what I really want to see happen is us build a bond with the police and with the community. That's what I really want to come out of it.
BURNETT: And you're wearing your shirt, the "I can't breathe" shirt. You know, look, LeBron James has worn that shirt. And you know, this is obviously your family.
BAEZ: Yes.
BURNETT: This is personal for you. But what does it mean to you to wear that shirt?
BAEZ: It's kind a -- it's powerful.
BURNETT: Yes.
BAEZ: It feels really powerful. I mean, because it happens a lot. The fact that it happened to my uncle, it happens -- it happens to a lot of people but it is such in a broad spectrum I want to seize it now. So to have this and to have everybody representing that is powerful.
BURNETT: That it's your uncle.
BAEZ: Yes. It's my uncle --
BURNETT: That has now become -- it's his words, and it's his --
BAEZ: It's his words. It's his last words.
BURNETT: Yes.
BAEZ: Everyone heard his last words. Because, you know, people -- when people pass, you rarely get to hear their last words.
BURNETT: That's true. BAEZ: Unless it's like a phone call or late their car crashes and
sounds like that. You know.
BURNETT: For one person hears it.
BAEZ: Yes. Maybe someone.
BURNETT: Yes.
BAEZ: But now it's like the whole world hears his last words.
BURNETT: Yes.
BAEZ: And that's strong. That's powerful. So I like to represent it. I'm going to represent it and so -- I can't breathe.
BURNETT: So, today, President Bill Clinton talked about these protests and he said something that sort of touches on something you said about how you feel about all of this, Gabriel. Let me just play what the president said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The fundamental problem you have anywhere is when people think their lives and the lives of their children don't matter, that they're somehow disposable just like a paper napkin after a lunch in a restaurant or something, it just doesn't matter. And we have to -- if we want our freedom to be in deed as well as word in America, we have to make people feel that everybody matters again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And I know you talk about how you feel the power of those three words, I can't breathe. You're wearing that shirt of your uncle, but do you also understand what the president said? Do you have that feeling, that there are people out there who would just look at you if you were walking down the street and not think your life matter?
BAEZ: Yes, definitely. I mean, you got situations where you can see a young African-American kid with a sweatshirt on with his hoodie on walking down the block and people would think he's up to something bad, whereas, you have a Caucasian kid with the same sweat suit, hoodie on and everything, and you think he's going to play ball.
BURNETT: Yes.
BAEZ: You know? I mean, it's not -- we don't want to feel like that, but just being brought up in America, the history, it's kind of implanted in us to just view it like that.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Gabriel, thank you very much. And good luck tomorrow.
BAEZ: Yes. BURNETT: I know it will be -- as long as you bundle up.
BAEZ: It's going to be epic.
BURNETT: You better have a long sleep version of that shirt.
BAEZ: I might just go out there and put this "I can't breathe" on my chest. I'm not sure.
BURNETT: Exactly. All right.
BAEZ: Extreme.
BURNETT: Well, good luck to you.
BAEZ: Thank you for having me.
BURNETT: And Gabriel Baez as we said with us going down tomorrow to honor his uncle, Eric Garner.
Well, OUTFRONT tonight David Klinger, former LAPD officer, now protestor of criminal justice at the University of Missouri in St. Louis. He's here with me along CNN commentator LZ Granderson.
David, tomorrow that national march against police is going to march down to Pennsylvania Avenue. In Washington D.C. Gabriel is going to be there, the rest of Eric Garner's family is going to be there along with thousands of other Americans.
You heard Gabriel just talk about I thought a pretty poignant point, right? That if an African-American young man is walking down the street in a hoodie, some people think he's up to no good. Caucasian kid they think he's going to play ball.
Do you think it's fair to raise awareness about the judgment police make about those kids, about police brutality?
DAVID KLINGER, FORMER LAPD POLICE OFFICER: I think so. I think the people need to shift the thought process. I think the previous point that your first guest made about trying to increase the bond, that's what we need to work towards. And I do think there are some -- there are some misunderstanding across the divide but there's also an awful lot of commonality. And I think that one of the things that people are missing is they are seeing this through the lens of race and oftentimes it is not race, it is police officers not doing things in the best fashion regardless of race.
And so, for example, one of the things I've been pointing out regarding the situation in Cleveland, also regarding the Michael Brown shooting, is the officers got too close too quick and didn't have enough space to make the decisions. And so if we understand that the fundamental problem is not that the police are targeting minorities to try to hunt them down and kill them, but they don't value minority life, we're going down the wrong path. The proper path is holding officers accountable to perform their jobs appropriately.
BURNETT: OK.
OK, LZ, what do you say to that, though? Because I'm sure you agree with some of what David said but I would bet that you take issue with one key point, which is that he says law enforcement is not in any way targeting minorities.
LZ GRANDERSON, CNN COMMENTATOR: Well, that goes against the research that, you know, many journalists have published over the decades. And that is we know that police officers tend to view black children as older and less innocent than their white counterparts. We know from research that a white officer when they are shown an image of a man, of a black man holding a wallet or set of keys, they are more likely to pull the trigger, thinking that's a gun than their white counterparts.
We know this one from research, so while it may be true consciously, police officer are not encountering a man of color and thinking hostile thoughts. The research is showing us there is implicit racism and bias there that is triggering -- in addition to the bad protocol that you talk about. In addition to that you have this implicit bias that is also fuelling their decision making.
BURNETT: All right. And I want to point out just a couple of moments, we have the breaking news, the autopsy and actually of the case in Cleveland David referred to. A 12-year-old boy, and then some of the defense there of that shooting is in fact that they thought he was older than he is. So we're going to talk about that in just a couple of moments.
But, LZ, I want to follow up with you, though, on what is happening at some of these protests. And this is a Ferguson protest that was held in San Francisco just the other day. Protesters were yelling obscenities at police, and yelling FU. The cops says a guy touched him, the cops take the guy down. Protesters actually then throw a barricade at police. So this all degenerates very quickly. You have it on both sides. But you can see this protester being, you know, pretty aggressive.
Watch this.
And gets on it then police obviously responds, and then you'll see this barricade thrown at the police.
GRANDERSON: I don't think there's very many people --
BURNETT: All right. Then he goes and chases him down. And, LZ, we saw here in the broader New York area, police officer punched in the face during the protest last week, pretty much a sucker punch.
Police also are facing brutality and I guess my question to you is, with all this questioning out there about police brutality, do you think people are -- were at risk of having people lose respect for a very important role when you see these videos?
GRANDERSON: I think part of the problem is that there's always been a lack of respect for that role for a number of decades because those who held the role had abused their authority and power. And so what you're seeing is just decades and decades of that being compounded. But with that being said, there is absolutely no excuse and that no way, no how, am I justifying attacking a police officer.
I don't know, I don't care how upset you may be at the situation, what is happening right now on tape, on film right now for the audience, no way, no how should be going on nor should it be defended. That's indefensible. But with that being said, it's not happening in a vacuum.
BURNETT: Right.
GRANDERSON: This is a result of decades and decades of frustration.
BURNETT: And David, then, what about this? All right. Today we saw a photo of a St. Louis police officer -- this happened today. He was stationed at city hall, protesters were gathering for demonstration about police brutality. He is wearing a Darren Wilson nametag. This is a guy in uniform now wearing this, obviously in honor of the Ferguson officer who shot Michael Brown. They now say they're going to discipline this guy for wearing that. But the police officers are saying, no, look, it's his constitutional right to do it.
But do you think it's appropriate? Should he be doing that? Is that helping at all?
KLINGER: Let me circle back real quick to one point that LZ made. He is correct about the implicit bias research. But there's two things that we need to understand. There is better research that's been done. People need to start looking at the research that's been done by Bryan Vila and Louise Jane at the Washington State University.
Don't want to get into the details but we have been able to demonstrate that when it comes to actually pulling a trigger in a mock scene as supposed to pushing the button, officers in fact aren't more likely. And citizens aren't more likely to discriminate in terms of shooting quicker at blacks and shooting blacks who don't have real firearms.
But anyway getting back to the question you just raised, my personal opinion is that the constitution says X, Y and Z but it also provides that people who are working for certain corporations, government entities, they do not have the same rights when they are at work. That they possess when they're off duty, when they're not at work, and so it strikes me that if the chief says you cannot wear this, then you cannot wear that. Period, paragraph, end of story.
BURNETT: All right. Well, I appreciate both of you very much taking the time.
And I want to solicit all of your opinions out there whether you think that officer today in Ferguson wearing the Darren Wilson tag was appropriate or not within his rights constitutionally.
OUTFRONT next, an update in the case of Tamir Rice. We just referenced him. He's the 12-year-old who was shot and killed by a police officer in Cleveland. We have those breaking autopsy results. And the fact is this, did they think he was older than he was and was that a racial bias?
Plus the Dow plunged today more than 300 points, the worst week for stocks in more than three years. What's next?
And torrential rain, winds and flooding all the way from Southern California through Oregon. This is one of the worst storms we have seen in years. You're not going to believe some of these pictures. They're stunning. We're all there live. We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: New developments tonight in the death of Tamir Rice. That's the 12-year-old boy who was shot and killed by a Cleveland police officer last month. Now the medical examiner today ruling Tamir Rice's death a homicide. Police say Rice was pointing a pellet gun at people shortly before the officers pulled up and shot him. They mistook that pellet gun for a real firearm.
They -- when they drove up and he was killed it's about 1.5 seconds. It happened in the blink of an eye. So is this enough to indict the officer?
Joe Johns is OUTFRONT. We want to warn you that some of what you are about to watch may be disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The official cause of death, gunshot wound of torso with injuries of major vessel intestines and pelvis. Homicide. In translation, we now know that Tamir Rice was killed by one shot to the left side of his abdomen. The question is whether his death at the hands of a Cleveland police officer is considered justifiable under Ohio law. The tragedy is still being investigated.
One factor may be whether the officer knew he was facing a minor, in spite of Tamir Rice's size. Former prosecutor Roger Canaff.
ROGER CANAFF, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Tamir was such -- just a large child. He's 195 pounds even though he was 12 years old. That potentially constitutes a defense because if police officers encounter who they reasonably believed was an adult just to simply due to his size, then the rules can be change. Particularly if this large individual is waving what appears to be an actual weapon at them.
JOHNS: And that's the other thing. Twice a witness calling into 911 warned that the weapon the child was carrying was likely a toy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sitting in the park at West Boulevard by the West Boulevard Rapid Transit Station. And there's a guy in here with a pistol, and it's probably a fake one, but he's pointing it at everybody.
JOHNS: But that information apparently never got relayed to the officers responding to the call. UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Everybody is tied up on priorities,
there's a guy sitting on a swing pointing a gun at people.
CANAFF: So the officers may not have known that, one, he was juvenile, and two, even more crucially that they were dealing with what is probably a fake gun.
JOHNS: Another factor, the orange tip on the toy gun had been removed. The boy's family has already filed suit against the two officers. They want the officers charged before the grand jury hears the case.
SAMARIA RICE, TAMIR RICE'S MOTHER: Tamir was a bright child. He had a promising future and he was very talented in all sports, soccer, basketball, football. He played drums.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS: Another question is why police from the scene did not administer CPR to Tamir, though an FBI agent who arrived four minutes later did. It's not clear from the report whether first aid could have saved him after the shot was fired -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Joe Johns, thank you very much.
And OUTFRONT now, Walter Madison, he is the family attorney for Tamir Rice's family, and Harry Houck, a retired NYPD detective.
All right. We have lots of new pieces here tonight. And I want to talk about them. Because, Walter, the cause of death we now know as of today is a homicide. The deputy chief in Cleveland said something very important. He said one of the officers yelled out the car window three times for Rice to show his hands. That Rice did not comply, instead they say he reached into his waistband, they thought, for the gun.
Do you think the officer who fired that -- who fired that gun, who killed Tamir Rice, should actually be charged with the homicide given that they told him to drop the gun three times?
WALTER MADISON, ATTORNEY FOR TAMIR RICE'S FAMILY: Well, I will require you to believe that in 1.5 seconds he was capable of yelling three times get your hands up, exit his vehicle, draw his weapon, dump two bullets into the stomach of this baby, this child. If you believe that, then I guess you can follow the logic of that statement.
Much of what I'm hearing today is just complete nonsense, though. Now it's that the conversation has gone to the size of the child. None of that matters. The point -- the ultimate point is that these officers violated clear training protocols and they escalated the situation when it is clear they should have chosen to de-escalate the situation. There's no two ways about it. The ruling is homicide and that officer should be charged with murder.
BURNETT: All right. So you mentioned the size of the child. Let me ask you about that, Harry. Tamir was 12 years old but he was a big 12-year-old.
HARRY HOUCK, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Right.
BURNETT: And that the video, we've been watching, you and I are both agreeing, he doesn't look as big as he was. Five foot seven inches, 195 pounds. That is a big person.
HOUCK: That's a big guy.
BURNETT: Medical examiner said his appearance was consistent with someone 12 or older. But you just heard a former prosecutor in that piece we heard say that size could be used to justify the shooting, maybe the police would be more intimidated.
What do you say to that? Do you think it justify it? Because in taking into account what Walter said. One in a half seconds. I mean, they didn't take the time to look and say if it was a baby face or not.
HOUCK: I think what justify the shooting itself, first, we got to go back to the tactical position the police officers put themselves in which is totally wrong. He, the driver of that vehicle left his partner completely exposed to the suspect. And so when they pulled up and whether or not this officer yelled three or four times out the window, drop your gun, drop your gun, I mean, I guess we're going to have to find that out later because there's no way -- we don't have any audio on that video.
But the fact that that the officer perceived the threat that that kid had a weapon, you are not thinking how old is he? How big is he? How small is he? Does he have a weapon? Now you are in a position there where your partner just put you in this bad position where you've got to draw your weapon right away.
BURNETT: Meaning, meaning when you said bad position, they could have driven up 30 feet away, 40 feet away of a conversation with kid yell at him.
HOUCK: That's what --
BURNETT: They drove right up to him so they have no space, is what you're saying.
HOUCK: Tactics really bad but that's not an indictable offense. This --
BURNETT: How is that not an indictable offense if that caused the death of this child?
HOUCK: Your tactics are bad, that's not a crime.
(CROSSTALK)
MADISON: How about this?
BURNETT: Go ahead, Walter. MADISON: How about this, since we're willing to consider the totality
of the circumstances here. How about the fact that he was relieved or he resigned before he was fired from his former employer, another police department? The fact that he doesn't have the mental capacity and aptitude to do the job under stressful situations. The fact that his father said that he was looking for more action is why he took the job in Cleveland. The fact that they said his handgun performance was dismal.
Now if you're willing to entertain those things, sir, then you must entertain the total package in this officer who in 1.5 miraculous seconds is able to do all of these things that you talk about and gun this child down.
BURNETT: Harry, what do you say about that?
HOUCK: Yes, but the fact --
BURNETT: I mean, it is true. He was about to be fired from his last job.
HOUCK: Correct.
BURNETT: According to --
HOUCK: Yes, I read all that.
BURNETT: Yes. Emotionally immature.
HOUCK: You know, I mean, he's got -- he's got a bad record.
BURNETT: Distracted in BP.
HOUCK: Right.
BURNETT: And his handgun performance, as you just heard Walter said.
HOUCK: Exactly.
BURNETT: Let's quote-unquote him.
HOUCK: But is that going to be presented to the grand jury for this specific incident?
BURNETT: Isn't it relevant?
HOUCK: Probably not. No. I don't think it's relevant at all.
(CROSSTALK)
MADISON: And that's right. It probably won't --
HOUCK: Cincinnati -- of course they won't, you know that.
MADISON: That's right. HOUCK: You know, the fact that this officer's got some kind of a bad
record doesn't do anything regarding his actions in this certain incidence here. All right.
MADISON: But it goes to state of mind.
HOUCK: His actions, and as police officer, his actions were purely, you know, very good.
MADISON: They weren't very good.
HOUCK: That he made the right decision. He thought that --
MADISON: He shot a child in 1.5 seconds. That can't be very good.
(CROSSTALK)
HOUCK: He thought his life was in danger.
BURNETT: Walter what about the point that Harry just made, though. And Harry, I mean I'm maybe I'm paraphrasing you, incorrectly. The fairly a mistake was made but it was the driver. He drove up too close and put his partner, the guy with the bad record, so close to the kid that he didn't have time to evaluate it. I mean do you think that that's true Walter? And if so would that make you say, the driver should be charged?
MADISON: They both should be charged. And this is a systemic problem. But this grand jury business and this is what has the nation so upset. You see justice should resemble the perception of justice. People are upset. The prosecutor, they have 90 days in Cleveland to have this use of force investigation. In America, the constitution requires that you have a trial completed in 90 days if you don't waive speedy trial.
So for them to have 90 days, we know exactly what's going on. They're being trained, he's being counseled, he's being told exactly what he has to say to avoid indictment. The prosecutor controls that entire process. We're not there as defense attorneys, no one is allowed to inquire, the transcripts aren't available. That process is where we break down because garbage into the grand jury will certainly render garbage out.
BURNETT: OK..
MADISON: If there were preliminary hearings --
HOUCK: Any other suspect would be afforded that same opportunity.
MADISON: No, they would not. Because he's not a suspect.
HOUCK: Yes. Of course they work out. You know that.
MADISON: He's not charged. And they won't charge him, that's part of the problem.
HOUCK: Right. But they always -- they always have a grand jury when a police officer is involved in the shooting.
MADISON: But there should be a preliminary hearing and a transparent process because I can't -- no one can tell what's being told or indicated in that grand jury. When grand juries have questions, they have the prosecutor did the file what the law means.
HOUCK: Yes. But you know --
MADISON: And why --
HOUCK: You know grand juries have always been secret?
MADISON: And that's why it should change.
(CROSSTALK)
HOUCK: If there's anything to indicate that there might be some kind of misconduct in this grand jury, all right, then that's probably a good way for us to go and say listen, the grand jury hasn't been as perfect as we think it can be.
BURNETT: All right.
MADISON: But you can't even get grand jury transcripts to determine if there was something wrong.
HOUCK: Because that's the law. That's the law.
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: And David, and the point of course of the marches tomorrow that they say the law should be changed. Of course there is also the question, just as a lay person you look at it and say, if you got fired for your last job as a cop because you were distracted, weepy and couldn't a dismal handgun performance, it's amazing that's not relevant.
Thanks very much to both of you.
And next, torrential rains, snow, high winds, at least two have died. The pictures of the mudslides and the flooding here are biblical. We're going to go live and show you. This is right here in the United States.
And one of the men who interrogated the first major al Qaeda captive, he was that interrogator and he said torture doesn't work. His story coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: And we're following breaking news out of California tonight. There are growing concerns that the earth could give way, burying homes and mud and trees and debris.
Already some houses, as you can see -- that was a roof you were just looking at, up to the roofs in rocks and mud after a powerful storm pummeled the entire Southern California area and Los Angeles, massive landslides causing rivers to overflow, roads and cars completely flooded, people are trapped.
Stephanie Elam is OUTFRONT in Camarillo Springs, California.
And, Stephanie, those pictures of the mudslide where you are tonight are incredible.
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very incredible, Erin. And when you think about this mud that carry these rocks and these massive boulders overnight down into this community, and as you can see, all the way down to the streets here in Camarillo Springs, it's amazing that no one was hurt.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAM (voice-over): Two inches of rain in just three hours, pelting Southern California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's in, he's in.
ELAM: In the heart of the city, a swift water rescue on the Los Angeles River.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here we go, here we go. They're going to pull her in.
ELAM: From the rising and rapidly moving current, first responders pull two people clinging to trees to safety, including this woman. Other parts of the Los Angeles area left ravaged by recent wildfires also getting doused with more water than the banked, scarred land could handle.
Crews begin working to clean up the mud and debris enveloping these homes and blocking some streets, even as the rain was still falling.
In Camarillo Springs, an area that was charred by wildfire in 2013, the downpour was far more punishing, sending mud and tons of rocks cascading down on these homes.
CAPT. MIKE LINDBERRY, VENTURA COUNTY FIRE DEPT.: They have a lot of rock to move here. It is like a quarry. It's just amazing to look at.
ELAM: The damage so intense, officials deem 10 homes uninhabitable. But remarkably, no reports of injuries.
CINDY WARGO, AREA RESIDENT: There was a lot of rocks.
ELAM: Cindy Wargo came here to check on her mother who was safe. But she is still heartbroken for these residents.
WARGO: These are a lot of elderly people and this is their retirement community and this is where they have put their money in.
(END VIDEOTAPE) ELAM: And when you take a look at how high up the rocks are coming and the fact that we know more rain is expected here in Southern California at the beginning of next week, something that California desperately needs because of the drought that we're in, can you definitely see that for people here, while it is a blessing, it is also a lot to deal with on what else may come down off that mountain, Erin.
BURNETT: I think it's incredible to see where you are standing and see that's actually a roof. Just perspective on what has been happening there.
Stephanie, thank you so much.
And in our money and power tonight, something relevant to every single one of us. Stocks plunge today. It's actually the worst week for your pension, your retirement, your 401(k) in more than three years. Today, the Dow lost 315 points, the NASDAQ and the S&P also tanked.
Here so explain why is Peter Kenny, chief market strategist at Clearpool Group.
Peter, that's 4 percent drop in a week. Stocks I know are still up for the year, which is important context. But the question is, will they keep falling? Is it time to sell or hold on?
PETER KENNY, CLEARPOOL GROUP: Well, bottom line is, the fact that oil is trading so much -- so much lower and so quickly, has lost so much steam in such a short period of time is really what's driving the equity markets lower, and not just the United States, but globally. It's really a risk off trade that has driven U.S. equity prices so sharply lower in such a short period of time. Now --
BURNETT: Which would make me think that -- I'm just -- and I'm going to play devil's advocate, that that's actually a time to buy, because some companies -- I mean, there are some companies that make oil and that's obviously bad for them. But most companies have to spend money on oil, so their costs are going to go down. As Americans, our costs are going to go down buying gasoline. We can then buy more things from companies, stocks should go up.
KENNY: You're absolutely right, Erin. Net-net this should be an enormously stimulative impact or should have an enormously stimulative impact on the U.S. economy. American consumers are going to be saving a tremendous amount of money and will have a lot of money to spend in terms of discretionary spending.
We're already seeing a really positive narrative in terms of the economy data that speaks to the health of the U.S. economy, whether it's unemployment slipping, jobless claims, production, cost of input, in terms of energy, all of those data points suggest that the economy is in very good shape. Q2, Q3 of this year was the broadest, strongest expansion in the gross domestic product in the United States in a decade, and it looks like Q4 should shape up to complement that number with some very, very strong spending and a very, very robust economy. BURNETT: I hope you're right. This country desperately needs it. I
want the numbers I saw, more than $1,000 per family saves on an annual basis because of the drop we've seen in energy prices. That is something to celebrate.
KENNY: Exactly.
BURNETT: Thanks so much to you, Peter Kenny.
And next, a former FBI interrogator and one of the first to question the first high-profile al Qaeda prisoner, one of the keys to the entire thing. Why this interrogator believes that torture did not work.
Plus, the latest Cosby accuser telling a story so similar to others about a meeting with the comedian that went bad after a drink. OK, what was the drug possibly used? We'll find out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Tonight, new questions about whether the United States tortured terrorists after the 9/11 attacks. So, the Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee claim the interrogation methods did not work, and one of the main reasons for this bombshell conclusion is actually sitting next to me right now.
Ali Soufan interrogated the first high profile al Qaeda terror suspect captured after the 9/11 attack. That suspect's name is Abu Zubaydah. He was the first detainee subjected to the enhanced interrogation techniques detained in the Senate's report.
All right. Ali, you interrogated Abu Zubaydah before and after the CIA used some of these EITs, as they call them. These harsh interrogation techniques, including waterboarding.
What methods did you use that you thought were working?
ALI SOUFAN, FORMER FBI INTERROGATOR: Let me tell you what happened, Erin. The first question I asked Abu Zubaydah, the very first question --
BURNETT: Yes?
SOUFAN: I said, what's your name? He said Dawud. I said, what if I call you Hani? Hani was the name his parents nicknamed him as a child. He had this look on his face like this guys know everything about me.
So, we start talking about different stuff. I mean, he was injured. He provided immediately actionable intelligence about a terrorist that was happening in another country. I think the details of it are still classified.
That information --
BURNETT: But he gave that to you. SOUFAN: That happened in the first hour of the interrogation of Abu
Zubaydah, in the first hour.
And then his situation became a little bit bad because of the injury that he has, we had to move him to a hospital. However, we needed to get actionable intelligence about threats. So we continued to interview him, to interrogate him in the hospital, my partner and I with the help of our CIA colleagues.
And at one point he couldn't talk. So, we literally did an alphabet board so he could point at letters in an Arabic board and we can put things together.
In a way, after we finished with that, still at the hospital, before the contractors show up, before the people from Washington came to that undisclosed location, he gave us that KSM was the mastermind of 9/11.
BURNETT: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
SOUFAN: Yes. He told us -- we didn't know that at the time. He gave us a lot of information that now as being claimed since 2006, until now, as part of the wider deception campaign that we've been hearing about and reading about in the Senate report, all this information were information that we obtain really early on.
BURNETT: OK. So, you say that you got details about a terrorist attack.
SOUFAN: It's not me who says that. It's not me who said that. This is a fact. These are the records.
You know, the Senate did an investigation and that investigation was a bipartisan investigation. When they initiated the investigation it was 14-1 who approved that and one day voted on the declassification. It was also a bipartisan vote on the declassification of the summary of the report.
They looked into millions of records, they wrote 6,500 pages of evidence, basically, based on -- including 38,000 footnotes and they put out a report. And after reading that report, let me tell you, Erin, it is what it was. This is the painful truth.
BURNETT: OK. So, that report that you say -- I have just to note, you know, for our viewers --
SOUFAN: Sure.
BURNETT: It ended up being a Democratic Intelligence -- Democratic members of the committee that supported the full report. But to your key point that you're making, that the information he gave, which was so crucial, came from regular interrogation techniques?
SOUFAN: Yes.
BURNETT: Not harsh ones. George W. Bush spoke about this very specifically in 2006. He said
that wasn't true. Let me play what he said and get your response.
SOUFAN: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: During questioning, he had first disclosed what he thought was nominal information, and then stopped all cooperation. We knew that Zubaydah had more information that could save innocent lives. But he stopped talking.
As his questioning proceeded, it became clear that he had received training on how to resist interrogation. And so, the CIA used an alternative set of procedures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Then, the psychologist, who was involved in this with the CIA. He said there was a good-cop/bad-cop sort of thing -- sort of setting up the thing that maybe you got some of the information, but it was because he was afraid of the bad techniques the CIA was using so you can't say it was your ways, it was their ways? What do you say?
SOUFAN: That is totally inaccurate. First of all, let me go to what the president said. I think the president has been misinformed and I think the report shows the president was misinformed.
BURNETT: So, you're saying he believed what he said there but he had the wrong information.
SOUFAN: I believe so. I don't believe he lied. I believe he was misinformed and as we know, he didn't know much about any of the details until 2006, until -- you know, he came out and talked about it.
He mentioned something that Zubaydah stopped all cooperation.
BURNETT: Yes, he did.
SOUFAN: That happened in June of 2000 -- I'm sorry, June of 2002.
Abu Zubaydah did not stop all cooperation. They left him in isolation for 47 days. They wanted to do some bad stuff and we disagreed. Some CIA officers were so angry they left before I left. The FBI pulled my partner and I out.
Everybody came back in June. They left Abu Zubaydah in isolation for 47 days, not one soul spoke with him. They came back and said there is a ticking bomb and we need to apply these enhanced interrogation techniques to get the information, waterboarded the guy 83 times to get the information that we already have. And that is what the report and the timeline of the report shows clearly.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Ali Soufan. A pretty incredible account of what happened and I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and tell us about it.
SOUFAN: Thank you, Erin. Thank you.
BURNETT: All right. And next, another Cosby accuser steps forward. Her story, like so many others, starts with the drugged drink. Here's the question we have now: what was the drug? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Famed supermodel Beverly Johnson now one of at least 23 women making accusations against comedian Bill Cosby. So, today, Johnson told CNN about how her encounter started.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEVERLY JOHNSON, FAMED SUPERMODEL: He was very insistent that I try this cappuccino that would be the best coffee that I would've ever had. So I relented and I -- he gave me the cappuccino. I took one sip and I felt something very strange. After that second sip, I knew I had been drugged. It was very powerful. It came on very quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Johnson's story about that drugged drink mirrors the stories of so many other Cosby accusers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He asked me if I wanted to drink.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He gave me a blue pill.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was red and capsule.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He kept offering me pills to relax.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My next memory is feeling drugged.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I passed out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I passed out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Joining me now, Dr. Reef Karim, a psychiatrist and addiction medication specialist who runs an outpatient in Beverly Hills.
Dr. Karim, thanks for being with us.
I mean, you've heard all of this. Beverly Johnson, you know, now the most recent accuser, the supermodel, described the sip of cappuccino, that she immediately felt woozy, the room started the spin, her speech became slurred, she's confident Cosby drugged her.
What do you think happened? DR. REEF KARIM, FOUNDER, THE CONTROL CENTER OF BEVERLY HILLS: Yes,
isn't it interesting that allegedly you've got this man who played a doctor on TV but appears to have wanted to play a doctor in real life, or at least a pharmacist? I think what we're seeing here is we're seeing somebody who was using different pills at different times in different decades. I don't think this is one pill that we're talking about. This is a series of different medications that had the same effect, which is slowing down the brain as a central nervous system depressant, working fast and not being detectable.
BURNETT: So, what kinds of drugs could this have been? Just in those sound bites that we've played, you heard to your point, they were different. At least in color, one woman described them as red, another described them as blue. What kinds of drugs could these have been?
KARIM: So, I think we're really talking about four possible classifications of drugs. Four types of drugs during that time period which is, you know, late '60s, '70s, '80s.
The first one is Seconal. That's probably the red capsule pill that was discussed. It's a barbiturate. It slows down the brain. It can cause anything from like dizziness and the room spinning, sleepiness, slurred speech. It can actually make you feel excited at first and it really follows the description of what the individual said.
Additionally, and this is the interesting part, is it can also cause you the memory impairment. So, you don't really remember the actions of what happened and it's dissolvable in water and alcohol.
The second one is Soma, which is a muscle relaxer. Really popular during that time period, also has the same type of symptoms that Seconal will produce.
The third is chloral hydrate, which is a sedative hypnotic sleeping medication, which again can create all of those same effects.
And the fourth is either Rohypnol or GHP, which was more common in the '80s, it's more common as a date rape drug, each of them, and is something that you can dissolve in water and you won't even know.
The thing they all have in common, they work fast and they slow down the brain, and they can impair an individual who doesn't know it's coming.
BURNETT: All right. So, one thing you mentioned, at least with Seconal, was memory loss as a side effect as well. With that be possible with some of the others? And given the nature of the alleged crimes, and obviously, we should point out, he hasn't been charged with a crime at this point, do you think that that could indicate he had the knowledge that's how these things worked in one of that memory impairment angle?
KARIM: Yes, I think what's scary about these date rape drugs is that not only do they immobilize the person who -- before they know, it is totally sleepy and doesn't see what's going on and all over the place, but they don't know what happened. And somehow it affects your brain into almost feeling like you weren't there. You don't know what happened, and you literally wake up and you might be a mess. And you have no idea how you got that way.
And to most of the victims, allegedly, this is the scariest part of date rape drugs.
BURNETT: That is -- I mean, it is terrifying when you think about it. These allegations are horrific when you think about that planning that would have been involved, how carefully he thought about it if indeed this happened.
Thank you so much, Dr. Karim.
KARIM: Thank you.
BURNETT: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Monday on OUTFRONT, the former Navy SEAL who says he killed Osama bin Laden, he will be our special guest. We're very much looking forward to that. We'll hope you'll be with us on Monday. Have a wonderful weekend, getting ready for the holidays. Hope it's a joyful one for you. And thanks for joining us tonight.
Be sure to set your DVR to record OUTFRONT to watch us anytime.
"ANDERSON COOPER 360" begins right now.
