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Erin Burnett Outfront
Baltimore Police Chief "Surprised" By Charges; Texas Attack "More Than Just Inspiration" By ISIS; Facebook Exec's Husband Dies After Falling Off Treadmill; Interview with Carly Fiorina. Aired 7- 8:00p ET
Aired May 05, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:11] ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT tonight, breaking news. Baltimore's police commissioner blindsided by the prosecutor's charges against his officers. Why was he told the news ten minutes before she announced it to the nation?
Plus, more breaking news. The terror attack on a Prophet Muhammad cartoon contest. Was this the first real ISIS attack on American soil?
And the death of Dave Goldberg, the husband of famed Facebook executive Sheryl Sandberg, how did a run on the treadmill turn fatal? Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, we begin with breaking news. We have learned the Baltimore's police commissioner was kept out of the loop by the prosecutor. Learning about murder and manslaughter charges against six of his officers. Only minutes before they were announced on national television. In his first interview since Freddie Gray's death, Police Commissioner Anthony Batts told our Evan Perez that the charges caught him completely by surprise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMMISSIONER ANTHONY BATTS, BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT: I found out that the state attorney was going on and what she was going to present probably about ten minutes before she went on. She gave me a phone call and told me what she was about to do, and that she was going on live. She told me what the charges were.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What were your first words out of your mouth when you heard that?
BATTS: I don't want to get into that so much. I could say that I was probably surprised, you know, by the information that I heard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Batts also admitted that his officers were unprepared for the protests and riots that engulfed Baltimore. Evan Perez is OUTFRONT now. Evan, an exclusive interview and some major, major news there. Finding out just minutes, I believe he told you ten minutes before she told the world. Why does the commissioner think she didn't tell him?
PEREZ: Well, Erin, you know, he was being very diplomatic when he said that he thought the prosecutor was simply trying to show some separation from the Police Department. But there's no doubt what you heard just now from him was also a sign of his displeasure. The fact that, you know, from a public safety standpoint, you know, he wanted to make sure that his officers were ready to see what reaction there was on the streets of Baltimore when she made this announcement, and to give him only minutes was something that he just did not really find helpful at all.
BURNETT: All right, so Commissioner Batts also in your interview admitted that his force made some mistakes. And that's crucial because it was that admission when he said for example that they should have reached that medical help at a press conference that may have emboldened and enabled her to go ahead with charges. What did he say to you about that, that he said there were mistakes made?
PEREZ: Well, yes, he said that the Freddie Gray case certainly set back to the department. You know, it's something he's been working on for a couple of years. He's been here two and a half years and trying to rebuild this department which has problems that go back decades. Here's how he describes the problem as he sees it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BATTS: There is a lack of trust within this community, period, bottom-line. And that's going to take healing. That's going to take us acknowledging as a Police Department, not just here in Baltimore but law enforcement as a whole, that we've been part of the problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PEREZ: And Erin, to hear Commissioner Batts say that, you know, he knows that he has to go into the community there and rebuild trust, he also has to rebuild trust with the state prosecutor's office, so clearly he has his work cut out for him.
BURNETT: All right. Evan Perez, thank you very much for that exclusive interview and that major headline that he found out just ten minutes before.
Joining me now, former NYPD Officer Bill Stanton, our political commentator Marc Lamont Hill, also a professor at Morehouse and host of BET News and HuffPost Live. And criminal defense Attorney Paul Martin, also a former prosecutor. All right. All the angles of the story right here at this table. Bill, you're closest to me. Let me start with you. You just heard Evan reporting that Commissioner Batts told him that he got a call ten minutes before. She didn't decide to press charges ten minutes before. She decided well before that. So, are you surprised?
BILL STANTON, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Well, I'm surprised, but I'm not surprised, because I think what we're seeing here is law play out but also politics play out. It's highly unusual, the fact that she just gives him a ten-minute heads up, no chance to be prepared. It's highly unusual that she's not going through a grand jury bypassing that. So all these things are adding up. Not really looking good for the prosecutor in my opinion.
BURNETT: And Paul, you know, you've been on both sides as a defense attorney but also a prosecutor. I know when you were talking to our producer, you heard ten minutes. You know, your initial words were, that's disrespectful.
PAUL MARTIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That is disrespectful, probably to the commissioner. But I understand the nature of why the prosecutor would do it. Listen, there's been a --
BURNETT: Why would she do it? She doesn't trust him, she thought he would leak it or what?
MARTIN: There maybe issues of leaking. And I think she wanted to be the individuals to make the statement and not come from some underling or be leaked to the press. So, I can understand why she did it. Would she have preferred to make it earlier? I'm sure she would have. But I think that was the best.
[19:05:16] BURNETT: She's charging one of them with murder. This is not a small thing to wait on.
MARTIN: That's the reason why I think she should not notify the police department.
BURNETT: So, you think she did the right thing in not telling, well, frankly the guy is responsible for peace on the streets afterwards, and all these six men and women report to. You think she did the right thing?
MARC LAMONT HILL, MOREHOUSE COLLEGE PROFESSOR: Absolutely. Because I think it comes down to the context and it comes down to the nature of the decision. Had they decided not to charge the officers, I think you give people a heads up. I was in Ferguson when they decided to not indict. And what you saw was bedlam on the streets. This time, they knew. It was like Fourth of July in Baltimore when they announced there were going to be charges. And they understood that. There was no violence on the streets.
BURNETT: There's celebration.
HILL: Right. We already saw leaks. We saw leaks that many people believe came from the police department about the nature of the injuries, about this guy having spinal injuries, about all these other things --
BURNETT: Fair.
HILL: And they didn't trust the police that the police keep --
BURNETT: Okay. Okay. I hear all of you. But isn't, Paul, part of the problem though that if you want to say now we're going to respect the system and have this go through the system that one way to do that would be to not play the same games? Don't wait until ten minutes before?
MARTIN: I don't think she was playing games. I think she was afraid about leaks, afraid about the information being decimated in the proper way. So, she did what she thought was best. Listen, this investigation was conducted by her office. It wasn't conducted by the police department. So as a courtesy, would she have preferred to notify him earlier? Probably, but what was best in her situation was for her to make the announcement.
BURNETT: So, you're using the word disrespectful but saying you understand. Why it happened what it happened? Yes.
STANTON: So, what we're seeing is a lack of trust. What I'm hearing council is the complete lack of trust.
BURNETT: Yes.
STANTON: You got the D.A.'s office absolutely has no trust whatsoever with the police commissioner or its department. So then how does the police department trust the D.A.'s office?
MARTIN: That may come from earlier, from the leaks.
BURNETT: Right. Right.
HILL: I think it's a question of how do we restore public trust in all of us, right? If you're the prosecutor's office. And having too cozy of a relationship between the prosecutor's office and the Police Department is one of the problems that people have had in the past. So, this separation I think establishes that. And again, I don't think it's disrespectful. And I think this is the opposite of business as usual. They're saying we're no longer going to do that. We're going to treat you like people who commit a crime.
BURNETT: But there's also, though, of course the perception of a cozy relationship. You're talking about between the prosecutor and police, but also between possibly the prosecutors in this case obviously and the Freddie Gray family. Their attorney is a big sponsor of hers financially. Was a chair of her transition campaign. There's been criticism of that, the police union has asked her to recuse herself. She has said she's not going to do that. But I guess here's the question. Did she feel pressure for those charges? From that, but also from the people on the street? She didn't have a choice. She had to charge.
STANTON: I mean, I would ask the council, as a defense attorney, wouldn't there be a problem with a rush to judgment and making such aggressive statements that, you know, we will bring these people to justice, I mean, just a day after the Police Department brings the report to her office.
HILL: What should the prosecutor do?
MARTIN: The media is saying rush to judgment. We do not know what information the prosecutor had at the time that she decided to charge the individuals. We don't know the statements that the police officers made, we don't know the forensic evidence. So, I'm not so sure it's a rush to judgment. It may be a situation where they had to address the situation before further leaks went out.
BURNETT: Right. So, it's unclear whether it's a rush to judgment.
MARTIN: We don't know right now.
HILL: But there's no reason to believe that it is, and I'm not sure why we would assume that it is. In every major shooting like this, forget about the local everyday ones that happen all the time, I'm talking about the ones that make national stories. There's always a clamor for an arrest, there's always a clamor for an indictment.
BURNETT: Yes.
HILL: And they don't just get it. So, it's not as prosecutors do the burden of doing this. It seems to me that she's bucking the trend here of most prosecutors. Even black prosecutors. I don't think it's race here. I think the bigger issue is she had abundance of evidence that she felt was compelling.
BURNETT: Right. Is there fair though to say Marc there was racial pressure? I mean, if she had not charged, the anger on the street might have been overwhelming, and the calculus may have been safer to charge, maybe even overcharge, let it go to the system. But don't let them wait. Don't let there be more violence on the streets while the people are waiting.
HILL: We have videotape. Again, I don't know all the evidence, no one does, right?
BURNETT: Right. No one does.
HILL: But based on what we have seen, this isn't fuzzy like Michael Brown. This isn't debatable like George Zimmerman. It's not as -- but it's certainly compelling. I mean, the guy could run and then he couldn't. He was arrested, there was no charge. He didn't have an illegal weapon. All these things are there. There's no reason for me to believe that she was charging for political reasons.
BURNETT: They're now saying that the weapon may have been illegal in Baltimore City but not in Maryland. So, there are still questions --
HILL: It's still an incident in the stop. I mean, they didn't see the weapon and chase him.
BURNETT: Right.
HILL: My point is there is nothing here to make me believe that she acted out of politics and not out of a sense of duty. And when she says I'm going to bring these people to justice, that's what you're supposed to do as a prosecutor. I think the problem is we're so used to prosecutors not doing that when it comes to law enforcement that we act shocked when they say, hey, we're going to prosecutor these people and bring them to justice. She represents the people. She's supposed to be accountable to us.
STANTON: Well, Marc, I applaud your intellectual honestly that you believe it's not race. I agree with you. But my fear is --
BURNETT: So, you don't think this is race.
HILL: Her decision, I'm not saying none of these is about race. I'm saying, her decision to charge I don't think is about race.
[19:10:15] STANTON: Because I don't think this is necessarily about race. I think if a cop is bad, he's not a cop, he's a criminal, and that will play out. But what I do think is happening is there is tremendous political pressure. You know, what happens if there is an acquittal? You know, I think there is tremendous pressure, and is the law enforcement or is the judicial system going to be held hostage based on the court of public opinion and the fear of rioting.
BURNETT: Right. And before we go, and this is part of the problem here, there's clearly an issue in this country, but you don't want to adjudicate that through one case. You don't want to say, okay, we're going to convict someone, and again, we don't know all the facts in this case. But no one wants a wrongful conviction because that satisfies people and makes them happy. That doesn't solve anything, right? Ending up in a situation when people, we haven't gotten one here, we haven't gotten one here, and we finally deserve justice as if there's everyone knows the right and wrong answer. That's a very dangerous position to be in.
MARTIN: I don't think that's what the prosecutor in this case is doing. Listen, I think she's evaluating the case for what it is. She charged officers black and white, and I think during the process we'll find out what the facts, what the circumstances are. I don't think this is the mantra for us to get justice through the last 200 years of being stepped on our necks, to be quite frank with you.
BURNETT: All right. I appreciate all of you very much coming on. And that was a great conversation. Thank you.
Next, breaking news. We are learning that one of the gunman who attacked a Prophet Muhammad cartoon event in Texas was in contact with ISIS before the event. I.e., not a lone wolf, it could be a huge development and our report is next.
And Dave Goldberg, he was only 47-years-old, married to the famous Facebook executive Sheryl Sandberg. How did he die in a gym jogging on a treadmill?
And breaking news, Hillary Clinton moments ago calling for a path to full citizenship for undocumented immigrants. The republican -- so-far the only other woman in the race will be my guest coming up OUTFRONT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:15:45] BURNETT: Breaking news at this hour. A U.S. official telling CNN now that two terrorists who attacked a Muhammad art exhibit in Texas were more than just inspired by ISIS. At least one of the terrorists according to officials was exchanging messages with a well-known ISIS recruit leading up to the attack. Obviously, that could be a very significant development. Not just a lone wolf operation but maybe something more coordinated to direct it. ISIS also claiming today that it was behind what would have been the first ISIS attack on American soil. An attack the White House today called a terrorist act.
Jim Sciutto is OUTFRONT, and Jim, what are you learning? Because this obviously could be significant. You know, we've heard about people who, you know, are inspired by ISIS and then they act in the name of ISIS. But this could potentially be getting marching orders from ISIS leaders. This could be much more significant.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, picture you have a range on the one hand, pure inspiration, a lone wolf acting on its own, all the way up to getting command and control from abroad. Where somewhat we're in between there, much closer to just inspiration, but there was kind of connectivity between these two. There was Twitter messages, tweeting back and forth between them. There were individual private Twitter messages from one of the gunman talking for instance about the ease of traveling to Syria to fight. So, they were certainly on ISIS radar screen here, and that's why one official describing to me how this is more than just inspiration, more than just a lone wolf acting entirely on his own.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO (voice-over): Today, ISIS took responsibility for the Garland, Texas, shooting. The first attack it has claimed on U.S. soil. U.S. officials are now probing connections between one of the Texas gunman, Elton Simpson, and ISIS to determine to what degree the attack was directed from abroad. Though there is no evidence the terror group gave the gunmen specific instructions, one U.S. official tells CNN that the shooting was, quote, "certainly more than just inspiration by ISIS."
JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Because of the quick and professional and brave work of local law enforcement officers, and attempted terrorist attack was foiled.
SCIUTTO: The attack fits a well-known pattern of ISIS recruitment and incitement, encouraging sympathizers via a sophisticated social media campaign to join the fight in Syria or if they cannot, carry out terror attacks closer to home. Simpson apparently had public exchanges on Twitter with this prominent British born ISIS fighter about the Muhammad cartoon event in Garland. And another person tied to the Somali based terror group Al Shabaab.
REP. STEVE KING (R), HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I don't know that you can say that ISIS said go to Garland, Texas, and attack that location and that activity, but there's certainly part of the psychological approach to this that causes people to be radicalized.
SCIUTTO: Those who knew Simpson and his fellow gunman Nadir Soofi, tells CNN they never suspected they were terrorists. USAMA SHAMI, PRESIDENT, ISLAMIC COMMUNITY CENTER OF PHOENIX:
They didn't show any signs of radicalization or any signs of even thinking about those things in that manner. So when that happens, it just shocks you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: You know, it's interesting, Erin, a senior intelligence official was describing to me the other day about how prospective Jihadist often shop around, in his words, for a terror group. And here you have a case of one of these gunman who was at first reaching out to Al Shabaab, talk of going perhaps to Somalia to fight. He had tweeted his support for Anwar al Awlaki AQAP leader now deceased in Yemen, and then he makes these connections with ISIS, and carries out the attack perhaps in their name. Doesn't mean that he had hard operational ties. Never traveled to Syria to train with them, but it does show that purely by social media, purely by inspiration a group like is can extends its reach all the way into the U.S. And I can tell consistently from Intel officials that this kind of attack Erin, that are most likely to happen on U.S. soil.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Jim Sciutto. OUTFRONT now, Seth Jones, director of International Security and Defense Policy at RAND, and former CIA counterterrorism official Phil Mudd. Thanks to both.
Phil, when you hear American officials believe there's more to an attack than just two men inspired by ISIS, acting in the name of ISIS, what does that say to you about what's just changed, about the role of ISIS? I mean, could that mean ISIS was funding this?
[19:20:14] PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Well, look at how much we've changed in the past 15 years. Let me book in this. We start with 19 hijackers on 911 who were wholly owned by al Qaeda, that is trained, funded, directed. We go to 2009 over Detroit, we have an underwear bomber, not affiliated with what we call core al Qaeda or al Qaeda central, but with a group in Yemen that had an al Qaeda ideology. Fast forward to 2015. We have moved so far down this realm, this sort of counterterrorism revolution, that we have individuals who have never been part of a group, who have never part of an affiliated organization in a place like Yemen or Somalia who just say, I like the ideology, I'm not familiar with the group. I've not joined the group, but just because of the ideology, I'm going to get a vest and a weapon and attack. That is in summary what we have seen over 15 years of this campaign.
BURNETT: And it's a frightening change. I mean, Seth, an American official is telling CNN one of the gunmen, Elton Simpson, I'll just show his picture here, may have communicated with another ISIS member, a British guy. And these messages are said to have taken place right before the attack. American intelligence saw the messages. They were aware of those messages, but they weren't able to stop the attack. So, how troubling is that?
SETH JONES, DIRECTOR, RAND INTERNATIONAL SECURITY AND DEFENSE POLICY CENTER: Well, I actually went through a range of the tweets from Elton Simpson. I think it is a challenge, though, because if you look at his past tweets, at Simpson's past tweets, one of the perpetrators, he's talking about these kinds of attacks both in the west and elsewhere. What's difficult is to respond quickly once he really starts to get violent. I mean, he starts talking about the Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris. And I think from an intelligence standpoint, what is difficult is to move that quickly and to arrest him when it's not entirely clear that he's going to do it. I mean, just calling for this kind of attack doesn't necessarily mean that you can go and arrest him. I think that's actually the challenge. And we have a lot of people on social media that are saying these kinds of things -- Erin.
BURNETT: And Phil, this is a point you've made before. There are a lot of people on social media. Right? So they can't -- you say, okay, there were these tweets out there. How could they have not stopped these guys? And as a point that you consistently make on this show, is that okay, Erin, give me them, I'll give you 10,000 others. How are they supposed to know who is actually going to do something?
MUDD: That's right. So, let's do the after action, Erin. You walk in the room with the FBI or the CIA. You have this event. You're going to direct a task force to say, we want to look through all cases. Meanwhile, while we have a few hundred kids, young man typically from Canada and the United States who today are going to Syria and Iraq, we want to look through cases three, four, five years old, thousands of them, and we want to try to discern which of those kids is going to have a switch turned on that says today I'm going to pick up a weapon. When you do the one individual case, it looks easy. The guy looks violent. He's talking about "Charlie Hebdo." I want you to go in the reverse, find a couple of thousands of those and then try to predict which one is going to turn tomorrow. I'm going to tell you, that's not doable, and that's not possible.
BURNETT: And Seth, to the point Phil is making, one of these attackers, Elton Simpson, was having a tweet exchange in which "Charlie Hebdo" came up. Someone tweeted to him and other extremists, the brothers in the Charlie Hebdo attack did their part. It's time for the brothers in the U.S. to do their part. After this tweet exchange though, Elton Simpson travels to Texas. Is there a line? Should officials have stopped him, or is that, again, asking too much?
JONES: Well, again, you know, it's no clear how much they were following at this point, but I do think it does become more important to be identifying triggers for these individuals. Tweeting is becoming very serious concern, but to add one final comment to Phil's, you know, it's one thing to be monitoring these people and what they're tweeting, but it's another to put the 24/7 resources and FBI team to cover them. I mean, that's a lot of resources for one individual, let alone 1,000. We don't have those numbers at field offices across the United States.
BURNETT: All right, thanks very much to both of you.
JONES: Thank you.
BURNETT: And next, the husband of Facebook executive Sheryl Sandberg dies after running on a treadmill. What happened?
And Carly Fiorina should laid off 30,000 workers during her time as a major high-tech CEO in America and now she wants to be president. How will she explain this to voters? Well, she'll begin here OUTFRONT tonight. Carly Fiorina is my guest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:28:34] BURNETT: Tonight, we are learning new details about the sudden death of Dave Goldberg, husband of Facebook executive and billionaire Sheryl Sandberg. He was only 47-years-old, father of two. He died in what appears to be a horrifically freak accident during a family vacation in Mexico. Local authorities say he fell off a treadmill. Today, friends from Silicon Valley and Hollywood paid tribute to Goldberg at a memorial service. Ben Affleck, George Lucas, and of course Mark Zuckerberg were there.
Rosa Flores is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVE GOLDBERG, SURVEYMONKEY.COM CEO: My closest adviser is my wife.
ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Facebook executive Sheryl Sandberg called him her best friend and the love of her life.
SHERYL SANDBERG, FACEBOOK CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER: I have an awesome husband. We are at 50/50.
FLORES: But the life of her other half, SurveyMonkey CEO David Goldberg was cut short by what Mexican authorities say was a freak accident at the gym. Resulting in severe head trauma. The family checked into the exclusive Villa Palmasola (ph) Hotel hotel near the Mexican resort town of Puerto Vallarta last Thursday, according to the state attorney general. A day later, authorities say Goldberg was exercising on a treadmill when he slipped, fell, and hit the back right side of his head, creating a three centimeter gash.
DR. ROGER HARTL, NEUROSURGEON, WEILL CORNELL MEDICAL CENTER: People can have fairly small external injuries, especially to the skull and to the scalp, and that can bleed quite significantly, and it also indicates that there's some type of internal injury to the brain.
FLORES: Investigators say Goldberg went to the gym at about 4:00 p.m. His brother Robert found him on the floor in a pool of blood two and a half hours later. He was still alive. His brother called for help, but by the time the Silicon Valley exec got to the hospital, it was too late. He was pronounced dead, according to the attorney general spokesperson.
HARTL: The timing is absolutely important. Studies have shown that repeatedly, you have to get the patients to the hospital, to the well-equipped and to the right hospital as quickly as possible.
FLORES: Goldberg's sudden death has shocked many around the country, including President Obama who took to Facebook saying in part, "David Goldberg embodied the definition of a real leader, someone who was always looking for ways to empower others. We're heartbroken by him leaving us far too soon."
The woman known for leaning in has not made a public comment, only responding to President Obama on Facebook. "Thank you, President Barack Obama, for this beautiful tribute and for your friendship to our family. Dave Goldberg admired you for your leadership, passion, and your deep love of sports."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FLORES: Now about the investigation, the state attorney general telling me this afternoon that an autopsy was performed, that foul play was not found, and that it was pretty much deemed an accident. And that the family didn't ask for further investigation -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Rosa, thank you very much. It's just unbelievable story.
Now, forensic scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky, and Dr. Mike Roizen, he's an anesthesiologist and internist, join me.
Dr. Roizen, let me start with you. I mean, people hear this and it's shocking and it's terrifying too because this is something everybody does a lot of days in their lives. How can someone die from falling off a treadmill?
DR. MICHAEL ROIZEN, CHIEF WELLNESS OFFICER, CLEVELAND CLINIC: Well, there are a lot of possibilities. One is it could have been a cardiac event that caused him to lose consciousness and then he would fall off the treadmill and hit something. And gyms are often made in ways where you can hit solid objects and cause gashes.
But no matter what the cause, there really are three real points, Erin, that your viewers, every viewer, should take home.
BURNETT: Yes.
ROIZEN: One is that only 5 percent of sudden cardiac arrests are due to exercise. So, it's rare. Exercise is really protective. This is not a reason to stop exercise. You should keep at it.
The second thing is when you're on a treadmill or any exercise equipment, you're on a piece of equipment that can be dangerous. So I often work on a treadmill desk. And I do 3.3 miles per hour, 2 degrees centigrade, elevation, if you will, while talking on conference calls. If you forget you're on the treadmill, it will flip you off --
BURNETT: Yes.
ROIZEN: -- and you can hit something.
BURNETT: Yes. I think everybody has had that sort of moment. Yes. ROIZEN: And you've got to think about what's behind you and plan
for it.
And the third real key point is, when you travel, think about emergencies and what you want to do with emergencies if something happens, so that you're prepared for it.
BURNETT: And, Larry, what do you think happened?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I agree with everything Dr. Roizen said. But I think it's very possible, if not probable, that he died as a result of a cardiac issue. That could happen if there is a major coronary vessel that is obstructed or occluded.
BURNETT: In other words, not by falling off the treadmill.
KOBILINSKY: Not by falling off the treadmill. It could be other reasons like the enlargement of the left ventricle. You get an electrical conductivity problem, and essentially, a person, the ventricle starts to fibrillate unorganized contractions and the person drops suddenly, and then you would fall off the treadmill.
BURNETT: And the treadmill is secondary.
But the other issue is he was found on the floor by a brother-in- law, they were down there for some family event in Mexico, two and a half hours after he left his room. Now, had he been in a public gym, they had a private gym at their disposal, had he been at a public gym and someone saw him, is it possible he could have been saved?
KOBILINSKY: Well, if I'm right that it was a matter of defibrillating him to possibly save him, then in a public gym, you might have a defibrillator. On the other hand, if he actually fell, and then hit his head, and it was trauma to the head, that's -- he certainly could have been brought to a hospital if it was a public setting and people would have been around.
BURNETT: All right, thanks very much to both of you. It's absolutely tragic story.
And OUTFRONT next, breaking news: Hillary Clinton just moments ago calling for a path to full citizenship for undocumented immigrants. Well, you see the other woman on your screen, that's the other woman running for president this time around. Presidential hopeful Carly Fiorina will be my guest, OUTFRONT next.
[19:35:00] And, is the federal government planning to invade Texas? You think -- Erin, have you gone deep to the world of crazy conspiracy theories? I have not, folks. The Texas governor is ordering state troops to keep watch.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Breaking news at this moment -- you're looking at a live picture of Hillary Clinton. She's at a campaign event in Las Vegas.
Just moments ago, she made a significant announcement on immigration. Let me play it for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We can't wait any longer for a path to full and equal citizenship. Now, this is where I differ with everybody on the Republican side.
Make no mistakes: today, not a single Republican candidate -- announced or potential -- is clearly and consistently supporting a path to citizenship. Not one. When they talk about legal status, that is code for second class status.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: OUTFRONT tonight: Carly Fiorina. She is the first Republican woman presidential candidate to jump into the 2016 race, the former CEO of computer giant Hewlett-Packard, and author of the new book "Rising to the Challenge" -- as you see on your screen -- and she joins me now.
[19:40:09] BURNETT: Great to have you with me, Carly. I really appreciate it.
So, you just heard Hillary Clinton. She then continues to say, and I quote her at this event in Las Vegas where she's literally signing things, autographs right now. "As president, I would go further than President Obama." and of course, his executive order allows citizenship to the children of undocumented workers. She says she would go further. What do you say?
CARLY FIORINA, 2016 GOP PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, unfortunately, I think she's pandering.
I think we need to start with some basics. You know, we need to secure the border. It hasn't been secured under George W. Bush or Barack Obama. It needs to be secured because the problem just keeps getting worse if we don't secure it.
By the way, we should secure the northern border as well as the southern border. I've spent a lot of time in New Hampshire lately, and they're very concerned about a heroin epidemic, and the drugs are coming across the northern border.
So, our enemies know our border's porous. We got to secure it. We have to fix the legal immigration system, which has been broken for decades.
BURNETT: And this is something as a former CEO, I know you know a lot about. But I guess the basic question here, that you can talk to in a way no one else can, Democrat or Republican running for president, is the economics.
You have more than 11 million people living in the United States, most of whom are fully committed to the country and have lived here for a while. Sending them all home is not a practical option.
They live here. The argument is if they are legalized, it is better for the economy. You're the only person with the standing to have a point of view on that.
Is it better for the economy?
FIORINA: I think that's totally unclear. And I also think the people who worked hard to earn citizenship the right way are fully committed to this country. I mean, I know a lot of people and you do as well, who took the oath, who studied up, who said, you know, I'm going to earn the privilege of citizenship. And people who came here illegally and who have stayed here illegally have not done any of that. And so --
BURNETT: Would you send them home? I mean, that doesn't make sense.
FIORINA: No -- I agree with that, but I think first we have to secure the border. Then we have to fix the legal immigration system, and finally for those who have come here illegally and stayed here illegally and who haven't committed crimes, they can earn in my view a path to legal status. Their children perhaps can become citizens.
But I think it isn't fair to say to people who worked hard to earn the privilege of citizenship that never mind. Never mind that you played by the rules. People who didn't get to have the same privileges as you do.
BURNETT: So, Hillary Clinton - I mean, you're going head on against her. You use her image actually even in your announcement video for president, and you've talked about her many other times in the past. Let me just give a taste to our views.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I'm running for president.
FIORINA: Our founders never intended us to have a professional political class.
Like Hillary Clinton. I, too, have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles around the globe. But unlike her, I have actually accomplished something.
She wants to talk about the war on women. She wants to talk about being the first woman president. It's just with me, she can't do that. And so what she's going to have to talk about is her record.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: It's you and her. The two women. You have something no other Republican candidate has, right? Your gender.
Do the optics of woman versus woman help you? FIORINA: Well, I have many things that other Republican
candidates don't have. My resume is totally different. I'm not a professional politician.
BURNETT: Right, all of that being said and that being a fair point. But you do benefit from the fact that there's only two women, and one of them happens to be the most famous politician in the world.
FIORINA: Yes, it's true. And she's -- look, she's a hard working, intelligent woman, but she's also a personification, honestly, of professional, political class. There are Republicans who are members of the professional political class. But Hillary Clinton will be the nominee for the Democratic Party. And she is who I, if I'm the nominee of the Republican Party, will run against.
And so then I think we'll be able to have a conversation about the issues, and about track record and accomplishments and the difference between our policies. And in the end, isn't that the ground on which elections should be fought, actually?
BURNETT: It absolutely is. And when you bring up accomplishments, of course, this is something you talk about in the book, leadership. You talk about being the CEO of HP.
You were CEO of HP. Let's get the good out here, right? The revenues doubled, the growth rate tripled, right? Those are things that you're justifiably proud of.
But you know, I, of course, was a financial journalist. I covered when you were fired from HP. You were known as the CEO who spearheaded a bad deal, right? You didn't get good coverage for that.
Some of the headlines when your got fired from HP. I'll show them to our viewers. Fortune: "Why Carly's big bet is failing." USA Today, "Can Fiorina trump competition for worst tech CEO title?" And an analyst who covered the company told CNN at the time -- I'll quote him, "Nobody liked Carly's leadership all that much. The street had lost all faith in her."
How do you convince people that your record is successful?
FIORINA: Well, in business, facts matter a whole lot more than headlines. And the conventional wisdom is so frequently wrong. These were the same reporters who said that consolidation in the technology industry wasn't happening.
[19:45:04] It clearly was. These are the same reporters in the technology industry who said that a diversified tech portfolio would never succeed. It clearly did. Years later, it was clear that the merger was a very good idea.
But the facts are clear. During the deepest technology recession in 25 years, not only did we do all the things you talked about, but we tripled the rate of innovation to 11 patents a day. We went from lagging behind in every single product category to leading in every single product category. The only way you succeed in a technology company is by leading,
not lagging. If a leader listened to conventional wisdom, leaders would never change the order of things for the better. So, I accept that those headlines were bad. I was fired of a boardroom brawl. I have been open about that from the minute it happened --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: That's true.
FIORINA: So of course, the headlines were what the headlines were. But the facts are also what the facts are. And I continue to be very proud of the people of Hewlett-Packard and what we accomplished. And I think the facts and the record are just clear.
BURNETT: And you have stood by it. In February, you told CNN and I'll quote you, "HP requires executive decision making. The presidency is about executive decision making." Of course you oversaw 30,000 layoffs. This is something --
FIORINA: And job creation as well, which nobody ever mentions --
BURNETT: OK, but there's a reason for that, right? Thirty thousand layoffs for a CEO can be something to be proud of. It helps your stock price. People see it positively. But in politics, it's livelihoods that were lost and people are going to care about that. How do you explain that?
FIORINA: In business, it's livelihoods that are lost, too. And I really get so tired of the characterization of chief executives as liking to do layoffs.
You know, I managed through the worst technology recession in 25 years. Every other technology company laid people off. It's the worst thing a CEO can do is have to say to someone, you don't have a job.
But in very tough times -- remember, the NASDAQ just recovered 15 years later to its dotcom highs. You look at every other tech company during that time, Cisco, Microsoft, Apple, IBM, everyone had to manage through tough times.
And I think that's honestly what distinguishes leadership. There are sometimes very tough choices that have to be made. But make no mistake -- you're right. There is no more difficult decision for a chief executive than to let people go.
BURNETT: And before we go, I want to ask you about the story in Texas. Obviously, the president now calling this an attempted terror attack. People trying to attack an exhibit where they were showing cartoons of the prophet Muhammad. Pamela Geller is the event organizer. Here's what she said about the event.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAMELA GELLER, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: We should be able to have this conversation. We can't have an event discussing or showing Muhammad cartoons or a Muhammad play? This is -- this is America. This is not Saudi Arabia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: That's what she said. She also is behind an anti- Islam ad campaign, which I spoke to her about a couple years ago that appeared on subways and buses which one of the ads said, quote, "Yesterday's moderate is today's headline."
There is free speech and then there is hate. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Many conservatives have said what she's been doing is wrong. Where do you stand?
FIORINA: Well, it clearly was provocative just like white supremacists demonstrating is provocative -
(CROSSTALK)
FIORINA: And yet, and yet, we do protect free speech. And so I think -- I'm very pleased the president came out and called this what it is, which is an attempted act of terror. Because in other attacks, he hasn't always been willing to call it what it is. He said the attack on a Jewish grocery store was a random act. It clearly wasn't. The beheading of Christians or people who are the wrong sect of Islam is clearly not random, and neither was this terrorist act.
So we can say that this was a provocative gathering. I think that's true. I think it's fair. But it never justifies this kind of terror attack. And we should call it what it is, a terror attack.
BURNETT: Should she have done that, though, what she did, Pamela Geller? Should she have held a cartoon contest?
FIORINA: A lot of people do things in this country that I don't agree with and that I don't approve with. But nevertheless, in this country, they're free to do it.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Carly Fiorina.
FIORINA: Thank you.
BURNETT: I appreciate your time tonight. As we said, now running for president in the 2016 race.
And next, Texas troopers ordered to keep a close watch on military exercises. They actually think that the United States, you know, federal forces could be invading Texas. This is a real story, and it's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:53:02] BURNETT: Is the Pentagon trying to take over Texas? No, you have not tuned into some crazy conservative web blog? No. Even though some people think they are. They think a multi-state Army exercise called Jade Helm 15 is
actually set up to institute martial law in the Lone Star State. And this is not just fringe, people. The governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, has ordered the state guard in Texas to keep an eye on these activities. The former governor of Texas, though, Rick Perry, is much more doubtful, telling reporters today I quote Mr. Perry, "Civilian leadership -- you can always question that, but not the men and women in uniform."
Barbara Starr is out front.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: By directing the state guard to monitor the operations --
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Don't mess with Texas is Republican Governor Greg Abbott's message to the Pentagon. Abbott called out his state guard to keep an eye on U.S. Special Operations Forces exercise called Jade Helm 15. It is an exercise some conspiracy theorists believe is really a plan for a military takeover of the Lone Star State.
JON STEWART, COMEDY CENTRAL: Texas, there is no Texas takeover. The United States government already controls Texas.
STARR: The governor says it's no joke. He wants to make sure Texans' constitutional rights and private property rights and civil liberties will not be infringed during the upcoming military war game which involved 1,200 troops, including Army Green Berets and Navy SEALs.
The site Info Wars has led the Internet buzz, insisting it's all a plan for the Army to wage war on Americans, even publishing a military PowerPoint slide showing Texas as a red enemy state.
ALEX JONES, HOST, "THE ALEX JONES SHOW": I've hardly ever heard something joint like this unless they're actually planning an invasion.
STARR: Republican presidential candidate, Senator Ted Cruz, says he understands Texans' worries.
[19:55:00] SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: I think part of the reason is we have seen for six years a federal government disrespecting the liberty of citizens.
STARR: Chuck Norris, one-time "Walker, Texas Ranger" TV actor says on the conservative Web site "World Net Daily", "What's under question are those who are pulling the strings at the top of Jade Helm 15 back in Washington."
Governor Abbott now says all he meant to do was have his state militia coordinate with the Pentagon.
ABBOTT: We have been provided assurances by the Special Operations Forces that there is nothing for the public to worry about.
STARR: But now, Democrats are calling on Abbott to apologize to the military. Even former Governor Rick Perry, a Republican, says Abbott went too far.
RICK PERRY (R), FORMER TEXAS GOVERNOR: I think it's OK to question your government. I do it on a regular basis. The military is something else. You know, I think our military is quite trustworthy.
STARR: The White House is trying to stay out of the governor's fray.
JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I have no idea what he is thinking. I might have an idea what he was thinking, but I'm not going to -- I appreciate the opportunity, though.
STARR (on camera): Governor Abbott maybe trying to reassure his constituents. But the Defense Department says the whole thing is ridiculous and they are not taking over Texas or any part of the United States -- Erin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: All right. Barbara Starr, thank you very much.
That is a true story, folks. And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Thanks for watching. Record OUTFRONT so you can watch any time.
Anderson starts now.
