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Erin Burnett Outfront
Official: Prison Worker Investigated For Relations with Escapee; Police Narrowing Search Area After Dogs Pick Up Scent; NY Official: Fears The Killers Will Kidnap Someone As Bargaining Chip. Aired 7-8:00p ET
Aired June 11, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:07] ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT next, breaking news. The biggest lead yet in the search for two convicted killers on the loose. Our police closing in on them. Just a few miles from the prison, right there.
And more breaking news, the female prison employee who police believe was part of the killers' get-away plan has been investigated for a relationship with one of the escapees.
And a major development in the case of 12-year-old Tamir Rice. Tonight, a judge ruling there's probable cause to charge police with murder. Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. And we begin tonight with breaking news OUTFRONT. A major break in the hunt for the two convicted killers on the run. Tonight, police narrowing their search to a few square miles right outside the maximum security prison where Richard Matt and David Sweat escaped. It's pretty incredible, right there. Not far away, not 30 miles away. Right by that prison. And just breaking moments ago, a New York state official telling CNN that Joyce Mitchell, the female prison employee who knew both killers well, had been under investigation for a relationship with one of them. Now, investigators believe Mitchell was part of the killers' getaway plan.
Tonight she's telling investigators that one of the escaped convicts made her feel, quote, "special." Now, we're going to have a lot more on Joyce Mitchell's story coming up. It's at the heart of this. We have an interview with one of her relatives. But as the search intensifies, at this hour, hundreds of police literally combing a heavily wooded area where dogs picked up a scent that authorities say was left by the two men. Now, they also found their discarded food wrappers, a shoot print and more evidence that the men may have recently slept there. The search area is along a corridor that begins at the prison in Dannemora, New York, goes due east to a town called West Plattsburgh. Now, a lot of that roadway has been closed down until further notice. You are talking about just a few square mile area right outside that prison.
Jason Carroll is OUTFRONT outside the prison in Dannemora, New York, maximum security prison. Jason, search crews, K-9 teams, helicopters, all out in force.
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yep.
BURNETT: How confident are they they're closing in?
CARROLL: Well, I think they're confident they're going to find these men. Confident about their lead. They are actually Erin, following up on some 600 leads locally. But the most significant lead came last night and throughout the day.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL (voice-over): Police dogs picked up a scent that investigators suspect came from escaped killers Richard Matt and David Sweat. Even as the manhunt widens across state lines, the best leads so far have been found just a few miles from the maximum security prison where the two staged their spectacular escape. Small clues in a massive search. Food wrappers, a shoe or boot print and matted grass where the two may have been in down for the night. Quickly checkpoints went up on the main highway leading from the prison to nearby Plattsburg. Police stopping every car, checking backseats and trunks. A former inmate who testified against Matt spoke to CNN saying he is worried the brutal killer might come after him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: He is dangerous. He is cruel. And like I said, he is very evil. There's no telling what his mindset is. And what he can do or what he will do next.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Authorities say it's likely the two are still near the prison with no reported break-ins or carjackings. Officials think a combination of bad weather and the intense search may have forced the two to hunker down in place, if they are even still together. They also cite information that the killers don't like the outdoors, adding that David Sweat takes pain medication for a bad back. Meanwhile, investigators continued to question Joyce Mitchell, the prison employee who a source familiar with the investigation tells CNN planned to drive their getaway car before changing her mind at the last minute. Another source told CNN that Mitchell admitted one of the men, Richard Matt, made her feel special. Mitchell's ex-husband told NBC News, that's very possible.
TOBEY PREMO, JOYCE MITCHELL'S EX-HUSBAND: She's from the country. She's from a small town and everything. She could be just a country girl that got sweet talked by some city guy.
CARROLL: When asked about Mitchell's involvement, Mitchell's daughter-in-law told me, "I'm totally disgusted that anyone would think she's had a relationship with these men and that she would knowingly help them. She would never want a criminal near her family."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL: What seems to be most clear at this point is that the longer these two are out there, the more desperate, the more dangerous they might become. That's why authorities are asking the public to remain vigilant as we now head into day seven of the search -- Erin.
BURNETT: Day seven. All right. Jason Carroll, thank you. Now, residents near the maximum security prison, many of them are living in fear tonight. You have hundreds of officers, K-9 teams searching their yards. Two deadly fugitives possibly could come up to people's homes. That's the fear. Helicopters circling, schools closed, roads blocked. Many families looking their doors and hunkering down.
Ken Gadway lives in this area. He's one of them. Authorities have been outside his home. He is in Morrisonville, New York. Ken also is a former prison guard from the Clinton Correctional Facility. So, you know the story Ken from every side. Let me start with where you are right now. You are in your house. You have a weapon. You are ready, right?
[19:05:30] KEN GADWAY, LOCKED IN HOUSE IN SEARCH AREA (on the phone): Correct.
BURNETT: And how worried are you? I mean, if they were to come up to your house, what would you do?
GADWAY: I would do whatever need to be done. I'm not worried. I spent many years behind walls in Dannemora. So, I know what these people are.
BURNETT: What police have you seen? I mean, we're hearing helicopters, K-9 teams, police teams. What have you seen?
GADWAY: Helicopters, roadblocks on both sides of us.
BURNETT: So, you are completely blocked in. I mean, is there any part of you that wishes you had left or no?
GADWAY: No, no, no, no. Traffic can go through beyond -- on both sides of us. It's just a roadblock is on 374.
BURNETT: And when you say that you are, you know, locked and loaded, what sorts of weapons do you have? It sounds like we probably just lost that connection. Just talking to my control room. We did. So, we will see if I get an answer to that. But obviously, we just lost him.
Joining us from his cell phone. Ken Gadway as we said has been a guard in that -- in Clinton Correctional Facility and right now in an area that's blocked off, is in his home. As he said, locked and loaded in case these fugitives come to his house.
OUTFRONT now, Shane Hobel, a survival expert who trains authorities to track down fugitives, he knows this particular area well. Also with me Arthur Roderick, a retired U.S. marshal who's conducted hundreds of manhunts. All right. You know what police are going through at this hour. You know what happens when you are almost seven days into something and you haven't found them. I mean, it's almost unprecedented in this kind of a case. Arthur, they say that dogs might have picked up a scent of at least one of the two killers. Do you think that that's possible? Can dogs do that?
ARTHUR RODERICK, RETIRED U.S. MARSHAL: I think that's a very good possibility. In fact, I think that's exactly what happened. I have never been a K-9 officer. But the marshal service has a very robust K-9 program. So, I have a pretty good general knowledge of what those dogs are capable of. They are a phenomenal asset. And they will probably going to be the key involved in locating these individuals. Now, a dog, compared to a human, a dog has 40 percent more capacity in its brain cavity to analyze smells. And they search in a three phase function. The first is actually searching for the target scent, which actually could have been something given to them that came out of the cell or it could have been the bedding that was located around the facility. Then there's the deciding phase where they are deciding whether that's the actual target smell that they have on the ground. And then, obviously, the searching phase where they go after and follow the scent. And I think in this particular case, because of the terrain and because they are going house to house --
BURNETT: Right.
RODERICK: The K-9 is going to be the key.
BURNETT: Right. Which is important, because they have a lot of K-9 teams out there right now.
RODERICK: Right.
BURNETT: Now, Shane, we are just hearing -- our Deborah Feyerick is reporting, just talking to law enforcement sources at this moment that they are worry about the time that's passing, obviously. Right? We don't need to be told that. But you are at seven days here. But they are now saying that the worst case scenario is the rising possibility that they break into a home to get provisions, to get weapons but also to take hostages.
SHANE HOBEL, FOUNDER, MOUNTAIN SCOUT SURVIVAL SCHOOL: That's true. You know, we're talking about guys who are on the lamb. They are taking serious desperate moves at this point. I don't know what their survival skills are. Pretty sure that they're not survival experts. So, it leads me to believe that they -- you have got the Adirondacks right there. It's a tremendous park with tremendous resources available. But if you don't know what you're doing, it becomes a great detriment. I can actually walk from the north end of Adirondacks all the way through the south without anybody knowing. But I'm an expert and it's no light hearted task --
BURNETT: To just pull that off. Now, they also say, to this point Shane, when you talk about walking that they found a footprint.
HOBEL: Yes.
BURNETT: Now, one footprint.
HOBEL: I know. BURNETT: I mean, I could be pointing that way and then I could
turn that way. Right? So, one footprint can't give you all the answers. But you think nonetheless that footprint could be crucial?
HOBEL: Absolutely. You know, as a tracker -- and that's the difference. When you are -- when they come across a scene and I look at a track, everything about that person is actually in that track. Now, the difference between a K-9 unit as we are talking about scent. The different between trackers, is we don't use dogs. We actually look at the tracks, define and profile everything about that individual from that track. There's a science here. And from that track, there's a string of trail that leads directly to that individual. Now, we know that there's a boot print. There is also a candy wrapper. There's some bed down areas. That tells me that there were tracks leading into that place and there's tracks leading out of that place.
[19:10:15] BURNETT: So, you can get a lot information at where they're going.
HOBEL: A tremendous amount of information.
BURNETT: Now, Arthur, what that leads me to the crucial question is, do you think they are still together? Right? They can work together if they are together. But if they are apart, well, you might argue that they have a higher chance or at least one of them eventually would have a higher chance of escape.
RODERICK: I mean, it appears right now that they are together. And I think they are together because there's some sort of a symbiotic relationship, a relationship that they are relying on one another. And more than likely, that they have got into a house somewhere. Hopefully, an abandoned home. They have got food and shelter and clothing and are just waiting it out. Obviously, up in that area they haven't opened up a lot of the summer homes yet --
BURNETT: Right.
RODERICK: -- which will probably happen after the 4th of July. So hopefully, this thing is quickly coming to a close and between the tracking and between the K-9s, they can locate these two individuals.
BURNETT: Shane, bottom-line, do you think they are really closing in? They are looking at these few miles right around the prison. Do you think they are really closing in on them tonight?
HOBEL: I feel as if they are. When I'm looking at the window of time of escape and then the witnesses and of course the dogs picking up the scent from the prison to the location now, it makes sense.
BURNETT: Yes.
HOBEL: You are talking about a tremendous area. They don't have the provisions. Whatever they did collect is probably from the landscape or abandoned cabins or homes, dumpster diving alikes.
BURNETT: They're closing --
HOBEL: They are closing in. I really feel that they are. A big difference is getting to see the tracks and the movement before other authorities come in, start destroying the evidence. That's such crucial evidence that will lead this and pinpoint this investigation.
BURNETT: All right. Thanks so much to both of you. As they believe they are closing in. And as we said, just a few square mile radius. We have some breaking details coming in to CNN about the possible accomplice, that female prison worker. Her ex-husband reportedly calling her a serial cheater. So, what exactly do we know tonight about her relationship with the killers? We have that full report for you, next.
Plus, as the manhunt closes in, narrowing in at the small place by the prison, could those convicts have split up already? And what would that mean?
And breaking news, a judge finding probable cause to charge a Cleveland police officer with the murder of this boy. You remember him, 12-year-old Tamir Rice, this is a huge development in a story we have been following for months. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:15:56] BURNETT: Breaking news. Joyce Mitchell, that's the female and prison employee at the center of the fugitive hunt. She was investigated before for a relationship with one of these killers. Investigators say, Mitchell may have helped the killers on the run. We have also learned that she told them that one of the fugitives made her feel quote-unquote, "special."
Now, Brian Todd is OUTFRONT with this breaking news. And Brian, I mean, this is pretty incredible, we found out a lot more about her today. But this bombshell, she had already been under investigation for a relationship with one of them?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: She had, Erin, we've learned there had previously been a complaint about Joyce Mitchell's relationship with one of the two escaped inmates. The official who told us that, didn't specify which one. We have new information tonight about her earlier marriage, in addition to specific details of her contact with the fugitives.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): Corrections officials had previously received a complaint about Joyce Mitchell's relationship with one of the two escaped inmates. That's according to a state official briefed on the investigation. The complaint is what led to investigators zeroing in on Mitchell as a possible accomplice. That official did not specify which inmate. But a source familiar with the investigation says, Mitchell told police escapee Richard Matt made her feel special.
SUPERINTENDENT JOSEPH D'AMICO, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: She was befriended or she befriended the inmates and may have had some sort of role in assisting them.
TODD: Fifty-one-year-old Joyce Mitchell, nicknamed Tillie, is an industrial training supervisor at the Clinton Correctional Training Facility where she worked with the two escapees. A source closed to the investigation says, authorities believe she was going to drive the getaway car for Richard Matt and David Sweat after their escape. But at the last minute, she changed her mind. Mitchell has been, quote, "extremely cooperative with investigators" according to the local D.A. She has not been arrested or charged. Her son Tobey told NBC News she's not the kind of person who would help inmates escape. On a possible relationship with Richard Matt --
TOBEY MITCHELL, JOYCE MITCHELL'S SON: She wouldn't have an affair against my father. And definitely, it wouldn't be with an inmate. There's no truth to that.
TODD: He is referring to her current husband, his stepfather. I spoke with Joyce Mitchell's former brother-in-law Thomas Premo. He doesn't think very highly of his former sister-in-law.
THOMAS PREMO, JOYCE MITCHELL'S FORMER BROTHER-IN-LAW: She likes the wild side of people, I guess. She's always looking for the ones that are, you know, a little bit troubled.
TODD: I asked Premo about Joyce Mitchell's short marriage to his brother.
PREMO: Rocky. Very rocky. She cheated on my brother and that kind of broke his heart.
TODD: Premo says, he hasn't seen Mitchell in at least 25 years. CNN made multiple requests but neither Joyce Mitchell, her ex-husband or their biological son could be reached for comment. Mitchell, formerly Joyce Kluki (ph) is seen here in a seventh grade yearbook photo from Brashton (ph) Central High School in that area. As the manhunt intensifies and Joyce Mitchell speaks to investigators, she still hasn't spoken publically about her contact with the inmates.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: A New York state official tells CNN, authorities are holding off on any move to charge Joyce Mitchell with being an accomplice, concerned that any legal action against her might end her cooperation. The Clinton County District Attorney declined to comment on any such decision -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Brian, thank you very much. An incredible what we are learning about her.
And joining me OUTFRONT now, artist Michael Alig, he was released from prison last year after serving 17 years for manslaughter, some at that time at the Clinton Correctional Facility. Criminologist Casey Jordan is with me. Along with Gary Heyward, a former prison guard who served time in jail for smuggling drugs into the Rikers Island Prison. And the author of "Corruption Officer: Perpetrator With A Badge." Good to have all of you. Michael, let me start with you. The
news that we're breaking tonight, that Joyce Mitchell was under investigation already in the past for having had a relationship with one of these two fugitives. We don't know which one. But when you hear that, how close do you think the relationship could have been?
MICHAEL ALIG, FORMER INMATE, CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY: Well, I mean, I wish I could say that I'm surprised. But looking at this, the whole group of people here, I'm not very surprised. And I mean, I have seen these kinds of relationships get incredibly involved where the wife -- the woman gets divorced from her husband who is also working in the facility and it's just a big --
BURNETT: And it's a full relationship? I mean, it's not just emotional. I mean, it's sexual.
ALIG: Right.
BURNETT: You are able do all of that in a super maximum prison?
ALIG: Yes.
[19:20:06] BURNETT: Wow! All right. Casey, Mitchell told investigators that it was Richard Matt who made her feel special. And we don't know if that's the one that she had been under investigation for a relationship with. But made her feel special. What do you think this relationship consisted of that could have swayed her like this?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: It's completely emotional and cerebral. Picture the first great love you had when you were 15 or 16 years-old. You couldn't sleep. You couldn't eat. You were completely obsessed with this person because you felt like you were walking on air. You called this limerence. That whole tingling feeling that you get. Most people by middle age don't get it with their spouses anymore. So, she was feeling this way again and again. And, you know, in the interest of consistency, I'm sure the person she was investigated for is the same one that made her feel special. Because even after the investigation, I'm sure she backed down, she backed off, she said okay, I'm sorry, I got a little too close, I will straighten that out and went right back to it, like addiction.
BURNETT: Right. And Gary, that's what I want to ask you because you have been a guard. You have been a prisoner. You've been on both sides of this. I'm asking you, if she's investigated before, are you surprised they would let her go back to work? I mean, again, this is a super max prison. If someone is having a relationship with someone, part of me is surprised they would let them go back to work.
GARY HEYWARD, FORMER INMATE AND CORRECTION OFFICER: Well, they thought the relationship was -- maybe it wasn't that intense or they didn't get enough evidence, enough information to feel that she was that intense with him.
BURNETT: Right. HEYWARD: Like I wrote in my book about relationships, people
that work in these facilities have somewhat like a double life. Outside, family person oriented, inside, it's a whole different world in there. They can have this other relationship and it's hard for someone outside such as their spouse to find out about it.
BURNETT: Right. You can keep it totally secret. Because nobody would believe that anybody would do such a thing.
JORDAN: Sometimes the secrecy is what fuels the emotion. The idea that they have something else nobody knows about. It makes it feel, very, very special.
ALIG: It doesn't surprise me that they let her back. Because these facilities, it's -- everybody who works there, they are all brothers and sisters and part of the same family. And so, her boss might have been her brother-in-law or her uncle or whatever. And so, of course, they will let her back.
JORDAN: And her husband works in the same prison.
ALIG: Right.
BURNETT: Right. Which is important to note. He does. And we have no idea whether he was aware of this or not aware of this. So, Michael, a source has been telling us that the investigation at this point, they believe Joyce Mitchell was going to be the getaway car. Obviously, she didn't show up. There's two possible reasons. One, she got cold feet. Two, you know, they emerged from that manhole and they didn't know exactly where they were going to emerge and somehow she was somewhere else and their paths didn't cross. We don't know. Do you think she was the only one helping them? I mean, clearly she's at the core of this. But is she enough?
ALIG: I mean, she would be enough, sure. I mean, if all they -- in fact, it would have been smarter enough not to tell anybody. You know, the fewer people that know, the fewer leaks, possible leaks that could be. But if they just needed a place, a way to get out of town, it would be somewhat better I think if only she knew.
BURNETT: And Casey, how does that play into the whole relationship? I mean, could it have been mutual on any level?
JORDAN: Oh, no. He played her. He played her.
BURNETT: You guys all are laughing at me on that. No mutual on the relationship.
JORDAN: I mean, this man -- he's escaped from prison before. You know, he has a long history of seducing women. The detectives have investigated and said everywhere he goes he's like a pipe piper, girlfriends falling in line.
BURNETT: They do have said that.
JORDAN: And he knows -- he can smell her vulnerability from across the room. He picked her out and knew she was the one. So, you don't need a huge quantity of people to help you with this kind of escape. If the quality of the relationship is so intense, especially if it was over months or years, then the actual priority of that in her life could make her lose all sense of reason.
ALIG: They talk about this all the time in the yard. They like, they single women out and they talk about them when the women aren't around amongst themselves, who they will going to go after, why they will go after them.
BURNETT: Really?
ALIG: Yes.
BURNETT: Did you experience that too?
ALIG: Oh, of course.
BURNETT: Speaking on which woman you will going to target?
HEYWARD: They plot all the time. They plot all the time. Maybe she had a little sense of low self-esteem. She had problems at home. You know, the way she carried herself around them. But as far as someone else helping them, I looked at the photos of the cut, the precision of the cut into the pipe.
BURNETT: Into the pipe. Right.
HEYWARD: It seemed like you have to have a certain amount of skill to do that. And you have to see, who was she privy to? Was she privy to blueprints, to get to them, give to them, to know exactly where it go.
BURNETT: Right.
HEYWARD: So, that's why I think it was more than her being in love that helped them get out of that prison.
BURNETT: Right. She might be the one that we know about now. But there could be others.
JORDAN: Right. Or she could have gotten that information without other people knowing.
BURNETT: All right.
JORDAN: Had access to it.
ALIG: And she's not being charged right now. Maybe they think she knows something and they are holding off.
BURNETT: Right. That's what we are reporting. Again for our viewers, they aren't charging her because they think they still can get more information. They're not going to do that. And so, they get everything they need to get. All right. Thanks very much to all three of you. Again, good to see you. JORDAN: Thanks very much.
BURNETT: And OUTFRONT next, two desperate men with very violent histories. So now the question is right, it has been seven days. Are they together? Can they work together to survive? Or could they have turned on one another?
[19:25:06] And the breaking news. It took two seconds for a police officer to stop and shoot 12-year-old Tamir Rice. Two seconds, literally open that door, point blank, shot that kid. It took six months, but today a judge finding probable cause and charging that officer with murder. That breaking news, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:29:18] BURNETT: And we're following the breaking news. A major break tonight in the hunt for two brutal killers on the loose. K-9 teams on the ground, on the trail of two convicted killers. The bloodhounds picked up the scent of the men who have been on the run for six days now. And now they picked it up right near the prison, just within a few miles. Candy wrappers, part of what they saw. Nearby residents now on lockdown, told to secure their doors and stay inside. State officials telling CNN, just in the past half hour, they now fear these men could take a hostage to use as a bargaining chip.
We want to begin with Miguel Marquez. He's at the search zone tonight. And Miguel, you know, they've been narrowing this down. It's a pretty small area all in right now that they are looking at, right?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's about five square miles. And that idea of hostage taking is certainly fresh in the mind of everybody who lives in that neighborhood. People are on pins and needles to say the very least. Also very paranoid, everything that people see in this area here, they jump to conclusions. Anything that is out of place, they are hypersensitive to. It is a little strange to be here.
The area behind me is the area that's blocked off. We are about four miles from where that area where they believe they bedded down is. It's an area in the grass that had been matted down with leaves and grass, looked like they stayed there the night. The food wrappers, a boot print and because the dogs picked up a scent, they believe it was fairly recent that they had been there. They believe that this is the best place to be.
We have seen troopers pouring in here to replace other troopers, 500 searchers in total. Helicopters up. Dogs on the ground. It's a five mile square area that they are sort of searching, but concentrating in an area near Cadyville, New York. And that's where a lot of that activity is happening -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Miguel, thank you very much.
As Miguel, a very strange place to be going through something like this. I want to bring in now, Paul Callan, a criminal defense attorney,
and the former assistant director of the FBI, Tom Fuentes.
Tom, let me start with you. You heard what they are saying, they are worried that they could take someone hostage. You've been worrying about this. Obviously, these are -- you know, it's a remote area. You got houses that are pretty isolated. I was talking to someone earlier who said, he is locked and loaded in his house with his guns. He is ready for them.
But how big of a risk do you think this is, that they try, they show up at someone's house and take a hostage?
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it's a huge risk because that could be their key to survival here. Not requiring them to stay outside and deal with the elements for an extended period of time. If they go into somebody's home, it would give them water, food, shelter, clothing and possibly a vehicle to escape with, possibly weapons that I'm sure a lot of people in that area have firearms in their homes.
So, it's a very real possibility. Very similar to the Christopher Dorner fugitive case two years ago in Los Angeles where he went into somebody's home, was in there a week. They unexpectedly returned to their vacation home to prepare it for sale. And he took them hostage. Now, fortunately for them, he didn't kill them. He killed five other people but not them.
BURNETT: Now, Paul, they have been on the run for about six days, which is incredible in and of itself. The average time for an escapee is six hours. There has never been anyone who escaped from the maximum security part of this -- the Clinton correctional facility.
We're told they don't like the outdoors. David Sweat, one of them, apparently was on back pain medication. Are you surprised they haven't been caught, especially if they left candy wrappers and are nearby?
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm absolutely astonished. I mean, I was with yesterday one of my clients who was in prison for 24 years on a crime he didn't commit and were suing in New York, was in this facility for three years. And he was astonished that it could be pulled off. I mean, he knows the interior of this prison.
BURNETT: Yes.
CALLAN: So, the fact that they have not been captured is also very, very surprising. But when I look at their profiles, they're both psychopathic killers. They have been in prison for a long period of time. So, who would be supplying them with support from the outside? I just don't see it happening in order to have them escape to another state. I'm betting they are close to the prison.
BURNETT: They are in the area.
CALLAN: Hidden in some place, yes.
BURNETT: Tom, Paul just used the word psychopaths. That's a word you used as well. And it's important when you're talking about two men who clearly planned this for a long time together. I mean, no matter how you look at it, it was complicated escape. Are they still together? Are they able to work together? Are they going to turn on each other?
I mean, what do you think?
FUENTES: Well, they might turn on each other. But then again, they might realize that they need each other to survive -- an extra pair of eyes to keep lookout, an extra person with them if they try to kill animals to eat or, you know, forage in the woods to survive. It might be better that they have both of them to do it together.
So, I don't know. They could turn on each other at some point. You could have an argument. I told you that person wouldn't pick us up. This is all your fault, then kill each other. That's possible.
But I don't think they would have reached that point yet. I think they're still in, they've got to survive and try to get through it.
CALLAN: One thing I noticed, Tom, that Sweat was charged with killing a deputy sheriff. The reports were that he shot him 22 times.
FUENTES: Right.
CALLAN: Now, that sounds like a guy with a temper problem, OK?
BURNETT: Yes.
CALLAN: Now, do you really think he's going to be able to get along over a long period of time with another psychopathic killer who's killed two people? So, I think their relationship would break down most likely.
BURNETT: Well, I mean, yes. So, Tom, you counted just looking at the area -- you know, Miguel is reporting it's five square miles. So, you have looked at the area, you know, aerials. You counted 330 structures just in that space, Tom. So --
FUENTES: Right.
BURNETT: So, is that a lot? Is that a little? I mean, part of me says that seems very manageable.
[19:35:01] I've been in this area. It is also incredibly remote. You've got mountains and valleys, and it might be the opposite.
I mean, what do you think?
FUENTES: Well, the problem we can't get an answer to -- I asked this question earlier today -- is that when the police searched and came across these 330 structures, if they found residences that were locked up, appeared intact, no one answered the door, did they go in and search anyway? Did they maybe break through the lock? Did they just move on?
The reason is, again, Christopher Dorner in Los Angeles went into a house that was unlocked, made himself at home for a week within a mile of the police command post of all the police officers are searching for him. And again, it took the family returning to their residence for him to be discovered. The police had checked the residence. The door was locked. Look intact, moved on.
BURNETT: Paul, you know, before we go, one thing that they did this brazen escape, you know, part of me says, why would they take any risk of getting caught again? I mean, it would be better to die than go back to jail, if you have gone through all of this. Do you think that's possible, that's their plan? They're going to go out in flames?
CALLAN: No, I don't think so.
BURNETT: Interesting.
CALLAN: Because they are in prison for life, obviously. The punishment is another seven years. You know what's going to happen? They're going to be put in, as my client told me, the box.
BURNETT: Solitary, of course. I mean --
CALLAN: Solitary, OK? They will remain there for an extensive period of time.
But they have become adjusted to prison life, and they are risking death by trying to escape. So, I just don't see them getting -- allowing themselves to be killed. But who can say? They are psychopaths.
BURNETT: Before we go. Tom, what do you think about that?
FUENTES: Well, it's hard to tell. You have seen fugitive cases like this end both ways.
BURNETT: Yes.
FUENTES: End up in a blaze of glory or surrender and say, take me home, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, I'm cold, I'm ready to go back.
BURNETT: Right. And we will see. We could see any time in the next hours. They are zooming in on this area of about five square miles, as our Miguel reports. Thanks to both of you.
And next, breaking news: a judge says there's enough evidence to charge the police officers you see in this car -- remember this infamous video?
Opening the door and shooting the 12-year-old boy point-blank. Tamir Rice died. They got charged with murder today. And a Republican senator in hot water tonight after calling
presidential hopeful Lindsey Graham a bro without a ho. Yes, that's exactly what he said. And you'll see what fellow GOP candidate Rick Santorum, what happened to him when I played that for him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:41:30] BURNETT: Breaking news: a Cleveland judge ruling there's probable cause for charges against the police officers involved in the shooting death of Tamir Rice, the 12-year-old boy who was shot in that snowy park. We have been following the story closely OUTFRONT.
You'll remember, last year, police said that Rice's toy pellet gun, they thought it was a real weapon. So, they shot him within two seconds. But the whole thing, horrifying event was caught on tape.
Martin Savidge is OUTFRONT in Cleveland, who spent a lot of time there covering the story.
And, Martin, this is a huge development. A lot of people did not expect this would happen. Months have gone by. They didn't think there would be probable cause for charges. But what does that mean? Probable cause for charges, it's not actually charges. What happens next?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, it's not actually charges. In fact, the ruling that came down from this municipal court judge is non-binding. It's not compelling. There's no arrest warrant out for the two officers in this particular case.
But as you said, the judge did seem to find that there was probable cause that the prosecutor should charge these two officers with, including the charge of murder -- at least in one case, that's Timothy Loehmann, the one who did the fatal shot.
The thing is, this is seen as mainly a symbolic effort here. The prosecutor says he has always said it will go to a grand jury. That's the way this prosecutor in Cuyahoga County works. He says this ruling by a judge changes nothing. It will go to a grand jury at some point. It is not there yet. The investigation is continuing.
He says, the prosecutor, it changes nothing.
BURNETT: Marty, you know, one of the things, though, is this took months, right? Months and months and months. I talked to Tamir Rice's family. It almost seemed like there never was going to be a decision. How did they finally get this to happen?
SAVIDGE: Well, this really is a brilliant piece of legal work as far as bringing attention to the amount of time as you point out. The family members and those who support the family of Tamir Rice are clearly frustrated it has taken so long, especially when all of this was captured graphically by videotape.
And so, what they thought was a very obscure law -- and only about 13 states have it -- where it is said that if you are a witness or if you know the facts of the case, any citizen can go before a judge and ask that there be an arrest. There were eight activists in this community who swore affidavits and did that. The judge said, yes, he felt there was probable cause, but stopped short of the arrest.
So, they see it as support of their case, but they didn't get what they wanted, which was these officers arrested. That's not happening yet. It will still wait for a grand jury.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Martin Savidge. So, still more to go. But, nonetheless, a very big development and one that surprised many people.
OUTFRONT next, a Republican senator joking that Lindsey Graham is a bro without a ho. Yes, that was said by a senator today.
And I happen to have Rick Santorum on my set when it happened. And you'll see what he had to say and what he did when he heard it, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:48:58] BURNETT: Tonight, hundreds more Americans may be headed to Iraq. The Pentagon now, quote, "actively looking to send U.S. troops to at least four more Iraqi bases near the front lines of the ISIS fight. This news comes a day after the Obama administration announced another 450 troops are being added to the fight. So, the numbers could keep growing. The total at this point, more than 3,500 Americans in Iraq.
OUTFRONT tonight, 2016 Republican presidential candidate, Rick Santorum.
Great to have you with me, Senator. I appreciate it.
So, you know have the president saying another 450 troops, they might have more to support the bases. That's what Dempsey was saying was possible.
You have talked about 10,000 American troops. So, on some level, you must think the president is going in the right direction. He is increasing the number.
RICK SANTORUM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Right. But he is not effectively fighting this war. That's really the problem. It's not just the number of troops. It's the number of sorties that are being flown. According to a CentCom report, there's like 14 a day of which 70 percent don't drop any ordnance.
[19:50:00] We aren't arming the people who really want to fight. Not the folks we have to train and encourage to fight. But actually people who are willing to fight like the Kurds. We are not giving them the weapons they need to be effective.
The Jordanians, we do give aid to Jordan. But Jordan has been flooded with refugees. They need more military support. We are not giving it to them.
Egypt which I know, this is near and dear to your heart, but Egypt is a country that also wants, wants to fight. And we have, we are denying them military hardware that we have promised them in the past and not giving it to them. So there is a lot we can do to help everybody engage the fight who wants to, allies that want to fight. And we're not doing it, much less our own.
BURNETT: And so, when you talk about 10,000 troops. You know, the Pentagon will say, OK, that could mean 30,000 Americans, you know, you need support staff and need to run the bases. So the numbers could get higher, right?
SANTORUM: You know, look, I'm not a military expert. I used the term 10,000 troops because someone who I do respect testified before Congress a few weeks ago, General Jack Keane who knows the area well. He suggested that's the kind of force necessary to provide proper support for the Iraqis, proper support for our air missions and defeat ISIS at least begin to push them back.
BURNETT: Today, the Republican Senator Mark Kirk was speaking at an appropriations committee meeting. He said he was joking with colleagues when he made a comment about Lindsey Graham, who's running for office about his bachelorhood, what he would be like in the White House.
And I want to play for you what Senator Kirk said.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SEN. MARK KIRK (R), ILLINOIS: Did you see that? He's going to have a rotating first lady. He's a bro with no ho.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BURNETT: I see the look on your face?
SANTORUM: Well, look, people are, you know, this is locker room conversation, that in today, you don't have the privilege of having locker room conversations. You can't say anything off mike or off camera. And, you know, guys will be guys when they're sitting up there on a platform.
Mark Kirk is a good guy. Mark Kirk is, I'm sure, wishes he hadn't been overheard in making some sort of funny remark. Lindsey Graham is a good guy.
And I just think this is much ado about nothing. And both are decent folks. This doesn't have anything to do with the fact whether Lindsey Graham is qualified to be president.
BURNETT: Should Mark Kirk apologize to women for making, calling women hos, essentially? What he did.
SANTORUM: Again, to me it's -- disappointing some one would say something like that. I will leave it up to Mark Kirk to determine whether he wants to apologize.
SANTORUM: Now, speaking of Lindsey Graham, he spoke to CNN this week about Caitlyn Jenner, obviously, formerly Bruce Jenner, right now Caitlyn. When Bruce Jenner came out as transgender, he also said in the interview with Diane Sawyer, I'm sure you noticed that he did a like look over his shoulder, yes, I am a Republican. Is it OK if I say that? Sort of making a joke about it.
Here's what Lindsey Graham said to CNN about Caitlyn Jenner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I haven't walked in her shoes. I don't have all of the answers to the mysteries of life. I can only imagine the torment that Bruce Jenner went through. If Caitlyn Jenner wants to be a Republican, she is welcome in my party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Do you welcome her?
SANTORUM: If Caitlyn Jenner wanted to endorse me, would I accept the endorsement? The answer is, if that's how she feels about my candidacy, sure. I mean, look there are all sorts of people in this country of all different positions in life.
BURNETT: You don't care? A gay man who is married to a man, a transgender, it doesn't matter to Rick Santorum?
SANTORUM: Here is the thing that I always said -- never ask anyone why they're voting for you, because you probably won't like the answer, because people vote for you for all sorts of reasons. And that's fine. And I -- I accept whatever reason anybody wants to vote for me who ever they are. Of course I accept their vote.
BURNETT: You accept their vote. Do you accept them? Do you accept her?
SANTORUM: My, my job as a human being is to treat everybody with dignity, respect, period, stop, full stop. No qualification to that.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Rick Santorum., I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks so much. Good to see you.
SANTORUM: My pleasure. Thank you.
BURNETT: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: This week on CNN, we have been celebrating the '70s. And tonight at 9:00, you're going to go back in time with the series premiere of the series "The Seventies". Here is a quick advance sneak peek.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Norman Lear and Bud Yorkin created absolutely iconic shows.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They revolutionized all of American television.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wasn't going to play around with mom dented the car. How are you going to keep dad from finding out about it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just because a guy is sensitive and an intellectual and he wears glasses, you make him out a queer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I never said a guy who wears glasses is a queer. A guy who wears glasses is a four-eye. A guy who's a fag is a queer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) a little bit. I thought they better be careful.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dy-no-mite!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There'd never been a complete black family on TV before with the father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want us watching all black shows for a change.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where are you going to find one?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Los Angeles Lakers against the Milwaukee Bucks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:: If there's a legacy of television in '70s, it's that you mattered.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And that is tonight at 9:00.
Thank you for joining us. Be sure to set your DVR to record OUTFRONT. You can watch the show any time.
We'll be back here, same time, same place tomorrow night.
"AC360" begins right now.
