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Erin Burnett Outfront
Prosecutor: Female Prison Worker May Have More Information; Official: Search For Convicted Killers Has Gone Cold; NAACP Leader Resigns, Accused of Lying About Race; Jeb Bush Announces White House Bid; Yemeni Officials: Top Al Qaeda Leader Killed by U.S. Drone Strike. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired June 15, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:08] ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT tonight, breaking news in the manhunt for two convicted killers. The district attorney telling OUTFRONT Joyce Mitchell, the female prison employee who allegedly helped the convicts, may know more than she's letting on and that the two killers may have had a backup getaway plan.
Plus, the white civil rights as activist who posed as a black woman, quitting her top job at the NAACP. Did she believe she was black or was she lying all the time?
And two teens mauled in shark attack at the same beach 90 minutes apart. And yet, that beach is still open for real. Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening, everyone. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, we begin with breaking news in the manhunt for two escaped prisoners. The district attorney leading the investigation telling outfront just moments ago that Joyce Mitchell, that's the woman police said had relationships with the two killers and was part of their getaway plan, may have had more information than what she is telling them. Clinton County Prosecutor Andrew Wylie telling me in a very revealing interview that the killers may have had a different getaway plan than the one they plotted with Mitchell. That leaves the door wide open for where they could be right now.
All of this, as a New York State official tells CNN the trail for Richard Matt and David Sweat has gone cold ten days after they first disappeared from their cells in one of the most brazen prison escaped in American history. Also today, Joyce Mitchell making her second court appearance, shackled at the wrist and feet wearing a bullet proof vest. A startling new detail about her alleged involvement in the prison break emerged.
Miguel Marquez begins our coverage OUTFRONT. He is in West Plattsburg, New York. The search is continuing there. And Miguel, ten days, they are now saying the trail is cold. What's the next step?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, to get lucky, to put it simply. Hundreds of those searchers are still out in the fields, the woods, the very heavily wooded areas near where we are searching for them. But they need that one bit of luck, that one tip that will bring these two back into the hands of justice, just as Joyce Mitchell is now wearing prison stripes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has the defendant been arraigned on the two charges?
MARQUEZ (voice-over): Joyce Mitchell pleads not guilty again of helping two convicted murderers break out of the Upstate maximum security prison known as Little Siberia.
(on camera): How would you describe her frame of mind?
SHERIFF DAVID FAVRO, CLINTON COUNTY, NEW YORK: She actually is quite calm. I think she's handling things fairly well.
MARQUEZ: Mitchell stands accused of sneaking hacksaw blades, chisels, drill bits, a punch and other contrabands into the two killers. Law enforcement sources say, the 51-year-old developed a relationship with both David Sweat and Richard Matt telling investigators the plan was for her to pick them up and drive to be seven hours away by the time they were discovered missing. Mitchell backed out she says because she still loved her husband, checking herself into the hospital after suffering a nervous attack in the hours after the breakout. Her husband Lyle cried, says a friend, when he heard the allegations against his wife. Tonight, Mitchell isn't on suicide watch. But --
FAVRO: Obviously, an inmate of this type of risk that's gone through this type of stress, this type of pressure, we're going to keep a close eye on. Could be anything, if there's medical issues that may arise, you don't want to wait 30 minutes to find those medical issues. We want to be right there when it happens.
MARQUEZ: Favro whose office is also involved in the search for the escaped murderer says, his gut instinct tells him Mitchell was not their escape plan A.
FAVRO: If they went through this lengthy elaborate time consuming plan to get out of this facility, that they had a better plan than her picking them up at 12:30 to take them out of here. They had an actual -- she was the backup plan, not the front plan.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Let me start down here with our guys and then we'll --
MARQUEZ: The search still focusing intensely on the area near the prison. This is possible evidence being pulled from a stream less than a mile away. Favro, whose department is part of the search, says he is split nearly evenly on whether the convicts are still in the area. Kate Jarrard (ph) grew up exploring the woods she now calls home where the killers could now be hold up.
(on camera): What do you make of all this happening in your neighborhood?
KATE JARRARD, SEARCH AREA RESIDENT: It's really interesting. I mean, I feel so safe with so many law enforcement people around. But then again, being in the middle of the woods, it's a little scary at times.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARQUEZ: It's absolutely surreal to be in this idyllic wilderness area and to have such a heavily armed police force along these beautiful roadways out here. The police are still out there. They are still searching very hard in this area. But so far, no clues. We even asked the sheriff today whether or not they came up with any DNA EVIDENCE in that area where they found evidence of them bedding down. He said, so far, they haven't seen any -- Erin.
[19:05:06] BURNETT: All right. Miguel, thank you very much.
And OUTFRONT now, the Clinton County District Attorney Andrew Wylie, thank you so much for being with us, sir. I really appreciate it. Joyce Mitchell in jail tonight. She's being checked on every half an hour. Are you confident she's told you everything she knows?
ANDREW WYLIE, CLINTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Everything she knows? I'm not sure that I'm totally confident about that. I reviewed her statements. I've been starting to review the video of her statements. And based on the week-long investigation with her and then some contact that occurred yesterday, it's apparent that, you know, she's trying to be as truthful I think as possible. But in any of these investigations, we always find out that potentially somebody continues to hold things back for one reason or another. And that may be the case here. But we're continuing if she wants to speak with us through her lawyer, we're certainly ready, willing and able to do that.
BURNETT: And in terms of things she could be holding back, I mean, obviously, she hasn't told you where they are, obviously, because she's either doesn't know or who knows what the answer is. But is it possible it could be something that significant?
WYLIE: It could be possible that it's something of that line of location where they were planning on actually going to. All she's told us to date, approximately seven hours away. No specified location. If she knows that and she can provide that to us, that would be extremely helpful if they have in fact left the area.
BURNETT: And in terms of that, is it possible that they were always worried about trusting someone like her? Right? Somebody that they had to rely on coming through for them. Is it possible that they fed her false information? You know, for example, just like you said, seven hours away, that they told her that. Maybe that wasn't their real plan just in case she got cold feet? They didn't want her to know the full story because she might tell someone like you?
WYLIE: Someone like me or someone like, you know, one of the several investigators that are working on the case, that is true. And, you know, I don't know that they would have known whether she would have gotten cold feet that Friday afternoon. But, yes, maybe that was part of their, you know, their plan to only give her enough information that they felt if she did come and help them that they would be able to leave the area without too much information being put out there, not knowing whether she would talk to her husband at any point in time prior to the escape, limiting that information, that's always a possibility.
BURNETT: Now, law enforcement officials have also reportedly said the escape plan included killing Joyce Mitchell's husband. His name is Lyle. Have you learned anything about that, the plan to kill her husband?
WYLIE: That's something that's been brought up over the last 24 hours or so. And we're not commenting. Neither of the New York state police or my office is commenting on that issue at this time.
BURNETT: You have told CNN that Mitchell's husband actually could have been involved in some way. In what way?
WYLIE: In what way? In a way that she -- that Joyce Mitchell may have spoken to him, given him information as to what had occurred. That is the only, you know, lead that we have of relative to him having knowledge. We have no information that he was involved in the escape or the planning of the escape.
BURNETT: Have you made any deals with her? You know, if she gives you information, you go for less jail time?
WYLIE: Absolutely not.
BURNETT: It's being reported tonight that Joyce Mitchell was investigated in the past for an inappropriate relationship with David Sweat, one of the killers at large tonight. What was the nature of that relationship? I mean, was it crush, I mean, was it sexual, do you know?
WYLIE: The only thing that I would comment on is that there was a relationship between the two of them that was inappropriate in the eyes of the Department of Corrections at the tailor shop at Clinton Correctional Facility. And as a result of that, the department removed David Sweat from the tailor shop and kept the two of those individuals separated from each other. Relative to whether it was sexual or beyond any -- anything other than just inappropriate contact, I'm not going to comment on.
BURNETT: Now, these two men have been on the run now Andrew for ten days. I mean, it's incredible, right? I mean, the average prison escape is just a few hours. Do you think that they might have had a backup plan that didn't involve Joyce Mitchell picking them up? Is that something at this point you consider likely?
[19:10:11] WYLIE: Well, with the elaborate plan that -- just to get out of the facility, it's very possible that they did have a plan B. We have no information whatsoever as to what that plan B would be, if it in fact exists. But, you know, yes, you know, we're -- like you said, we're into this over a week and a half now, and, you know, it's getting very frustrating not only for my office and the community that I live in and protect, but it's the law enforcement officers, the correction officers, everybody involved is getting frustrated not getting our hands on these two individuals.
BURNETT: All right. Andrew, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time tonight, sir.
WYLIE: Thank you.
BURNETT: And joining me now, the retired NYPD detective Sergeant Joe Giacalone. All right. You just heard the district attorney there Andrew Wylie. They're not sure that Joyce Mitchell has told them everything he knows. And that could include the location as to where these men are. It's very possible they had a plan B. And if so, they have no idea what it is. And other officials telling CNN tonight, the trail has gone cold. That's a pretty damning trail.
SERGEANT JOSEPH GIACALONE, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: This is getting like worse and worse as we go along. I mean, this is something where you could tell from the district attorney's, you know, from his body language to his facial expression that, you know, he just wants to say yes in a lot of those questions that you asked him. The problem is this. This could be the biggest red herring Joyce Mitchell that a prison break has ever seen. I mean, these guys went this whole a lot for --
BURNETT: But they purposely used her, purposely fed her information --
GIACALONE: You would have to think of that.
BURNETT: You think that that's possible.
GIACALONE: Well, listen, they knew that as soon as the police started looking at the cell phone records, they're going to be on top of her within a matter of hours.
BURNETT: Right.
GIACALONE: So, I mean, these guys had planned everything out. In that respect, this could be something that they thought of well in advance.
BURNETT: Now, Andrew Wylie also told me she could be withholding crucial information, like I said, such as location, which would imply differently than what you are saying, which implied she knew something. But I guess my question would be, in that scenario, what incentive does she have at this point to withhold information?
GIACALONE: Yes. Her getting out of jail free card has already been used up. I mean, whatever she told them ahead of time. If she had anything, it would have didn't --
BURNETT: He was adamant they made no deals.
GIACALONE: Right.
BURNETT: For last the time in exchange information.
GIACALONE: Like, but like everything else, usually the way these things work, is they remember after the facts, after the guys are behind bars. BURNETT: Yes.
GIACALONE: They really think that they would have this -- they though they would have these guys in a matter of days or hours, at this point, as soon as they latched on to her. But since that didn't happen, now they are going to be more frustrated.
BURNETT: And when do they pull back? I mean, right now you have 1,000 people hunting. At some point you pull back. So, even, I mean, they could be far, far away. Right? But even if they are nearby, at some point they can wait it out, right?
GIACALONE: Yes. You can't keep up this type of, you know, operation this long. I mean, you are pulling cops from everywhere.
BURNETT: Right?
GIACALONE: I mean, what about these other communities out there --
BURNETT: A million dollars a day. Thousands of people. Yes.
GIACALONE: And the fact that we haven't found any physical evidence along the way, no break-ins, no stolen cars, no, nothing, yes, this could be -- they could be way long gone than we ever thought of originally.
BURNETT: An incredible story. Getting even more so. Thank you so much, Sergeant.
And OUTFRONT next, the NAACP president, a white woman who said she was African-American resigning today. Was she lying about her race?
And the U.S. reportedly kills two top terror leaders. A live report coming up.
And two teens mauled in shark tacks less than 90 minutes apart. Both lost limbs. And tonight we have the rescuers and the frantic 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CALLER: Oh, my gosh! (INAUDIBLE)
911 DISPATCHER: Hello.
CALLER: There's somebody been attacked by a shark!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:17:00] BURNETT: The head of the NAACP in Spokane, Washington, resigning today in the face of major controversy. Rachel Dolezal said she was black for years. And as a prominence civil rights activist, she said she had been the victim of racial hate crimes, including someone putting a noose outside her house. It turns out though that Dolezal is white. Here is a picture of her as a teen. And there she is now. Tonight as Dolezal steps aside, many want answers. Stephanie Elam is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While Rachel Dolezal still didn't answer the burning question about her race --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are your parents, are they white?
ELAM: The President of the Spokane NAACP Chapter is stepping down writing in this letter, quote, "I have waited in deference while others expressed their feelings, absent the full story. It is with complete allegiance to the cause of racial and social justice that I stepped aside. I will never stop fighting for human rights." That resignation changing tonight's planned protest into a rally for healing.
KITARA MCCLURE, MEMBER, SPOKANE NAACP: We are going to make the conscious decision to forgive Rachel, forgive all the things that have happened.
ELAM: Yes, the national conversation continues to brew with Dolezal's adopted brother calling his sister's behavior black face. Here she is on ABC.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she took me aside when I was over there. And told me to make sure that no one found out where she was actually from and for me not to blow her cover.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what we have. We have older white men on our currency.
ELAM: But this revelation is giving fuel to some of her critics who now see Dolezal's actions as deliberate and calculating.
ANGELA FINNEY, TEACHER, SPOKANE COMMUNITY COLLEGE: It's a hurtful thing for me because I believed in somebody that I thought was someone else.
ELAM: Though Dolezal is stepping down, she says she's not backing down from her social activism. A stance some in Spokane honor despite the dramatic turn.
AYANNA KY FERNANDEZ, STUDENT, SPOKANE COMMUNITY COLLEGE: It doesn't change how we feel about Rachel. And it doesn't discredit her work and everything that she has built and accomplished since -- as long as we have known her.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: And there is even more controversy brewing tonight. This isn't going away, Stephanie. I know we are learning Dolezal filed a law sought against Howard University where she went for a graduate degree. It's a historically black university. You know a lot more about this. ELAM: Yes, I do. And it's a school I know well because I'm a
graduate of Howard University, Erin. And I can tell you that when she was there, she graduated with a masters in 2002. And that's when she filed this lawsuit. She was claiming that she was discriminated against based on race, also pregnancy, family responsibilities and gender. And it's important to point out that her parents have told us that when she applied to Howard University for grad school, she applied as a white woman. That there was no box to check about what race she was and that at that point people said she still looked very much like a white woman. So, it's interesting to see how this changed. We do know that a judge later threw out this case saying that there wasn't enough evidence on her side to prove her case -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Stephanie, thank you very much.
And now that controversy adding to the big question for many, which is, what would lead this woman to completely change her race or to say that she's a race that she isn't?
I'm joined by a psychologist and a professor of Behavioral Medicine, Jeff Gardere as well as our own Don Lemon.
All right. Jeff, let me show the picture again. As a teenager, she is a very pale-skinned white kid. And here she is obviously darker skinned, totally different hair, looks African-American now. It seems to most people you are either white or your black or your parents might be both and you might mixed. But her parents were both white.
JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST AND PROFESSOR, BEHAVIORAL MEDICINE, TOURO COLLEGE: Exactly.
BURNETT: So, is it possible she can truly believe that she is black?
GARDERE: I don't think she truly believes that she's black. I think what has happened is she's over-identified with being African-American and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. She can come out and say, you know what? I feel that I am a black woman. But when you tell the lie that your race is actually something that it's not and you don't have to go there, you didn't have do that, she would still have the respect of everyone that she's worked with and the great work that she has done over the years. When you go over that line, now you have to build the reality around that lie. And she just really didn't have to go there.
BURNETT: You know, Don, Marc Lamont Hill said, you know, it's one thing to want to identify, you know, with a culture and ethnicity. But she took on everything but the burden.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.
BURNETT: And we heard a lot about the burden of being African- American, the way people look at you differently on the street. She always has the ability to walk away from that.
LEMON: She does. And, you know, we have talking a lot about what's transracial and what's -- can you do all this? It's just one more thing that, you know, that white people can do that and black people can't. They say, hey, listen, I choose to be black and so I'm going to be black now. You know, I don't know of many African-Americans now who can say, you know, what? I'm going to choose to be white and not have to deal with that burden.
BURNETT: It's dead serious. Right?
LEMON: It is serious. And as we are looking at -- everybody is doing it. Look at Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson's son.
BURNETT: Uh-mm.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: He says -- he says he identifies as African-American or as black and with hip hop culture. And, you know, you can talk more about this. Race is a construct. A human construct. She said as much in that statement. She's not talking about it. But I think the statement gives it away that she thinks that race is fluid. Because she says while challenging the construct of race, not that race is a fact, not that this is what we're born a certain race and we could say that way, the construct of race at the core of evolving human consciousness. That means that she believes in my mind --
[19:22:30] BURNETT: The race is in the eye of the beholder.
LEMON: Race is in the eye of the beholder and I think that's what she truly believes.
GARDERE: And if she just said that, then I don't think she would have all the issues she has now.
LEMON: Right.
GARDERE: Look, there's another side of the coin here.
BURNETT: That's not what she did. What she did was say, she was something that she isn't to most people.
GARDERE: Exactly.
BURNETT: She said --
LEMON: But she did become over time --
BURNETT: Look, she changed the way she looked so that she would look like what she was saying. But that isn't what she really looked like.
GARDERE: She started allegedly getting other people such as family members to say, hey, listen, cover for me. I don't want you to let people know where I came from or who I really am as far as race. Then, again, you are building another construct or reality to cover that. But the other side of that, as African-Americans, there are blacks, for example, who are very light and who feel that they have had to pass. And we don't think that it's healthy to do that. We may understand why they needed to do it. But we don't --
LEMON: Back in the day.
GARDERE: Exactly.
LEMON: Maybe some people -- I see some people on television now and I go, ah-ah, you are not white. You know, there are many people I see on television. But those pictures as someone who is from Louisiana, those pictures of her as a kid say nothing to me. I have relatives who look like her and who are black, who are, you know, 100 percent --
BURNETT: Well, but you are talking about history of American slavery and what happened with -- yes?
LEMON: The pictures say nothing to me. Many of us evolve as people. You don't look the same as you looked when you were 10, 12, 13, 14, 15 years old. We all change. So, those pictures say nothing to me. For me, if she wants to identify as black, come on in. But then you have to take the burden that comes with it. And so, when you are applying for housing or whatever it is --
GARDERE: You have to be truthful about that.
LEMON: You got to be black, absolutely. So that you can deal with the possible discrimination.
BURNETT: Well, that means, pay a higher mortgage rate and everything else, right?
GARDERE: Exactly. But the other part of that, her parents allegedly outed her. Her -- one of her brothers says that she's parading as black face. There are certain psycho-dynamics that are going on here with her family, with her. And that's why I don't want to condemn her. I don't want to judge her.
BURNETT: Obviously, there's a lot of issue there.
GARDERE: I have to look at what's going on that she feels that she needs to identifying the way but go beyond the identification to actually now telling a lie. And when you tell a lie, that's when it starts going off the tracks.
LEMON: I do want to hear from her. I do want to hear from her about -- is this just fun for her or is it real? You know, I put on a character and now I'm getting away with it and it just became --
GARDERE: I think she has been struggling through the years and it's lead to this and so, she has got to get some help with it and with the family too.
LEMON: We are talking to her family tonight.
BURNETT: All right. Wonderful. Watch that at "CNN TONIGHT" with Don at 10:00. You will hear the family. And thanks so much to both of you. Really looking forward to that. And next, Jeb Bush joining a very crowded field of republican presidential candidates. Can he, should he distance himself from the Bush dynasty? The answer to that question may not be what you expect.
And two teens attacked on the same day, the same beach, both lose an arm. The two paramedics who was the first on the scene with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:29:28] BURNETT: Breaking news, Jeb Bush jumping on the race for president. The former Florida governor, the 11th republican candidate to make it official and while his last name is of course very familiar, today he tried to portray himself as a Washington outsider.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We don't need another president who merely holds the top spot among the pampered elites of Washington. We need a president willing to challenge and disrupt the whole culture in our nation's capital. And I will be that president.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:30:00] BURNETT: Suzanne Malveaux is OUTFRONT. And, Suzanne, the big question right now is, will voters ever see someone with the last name B-U-S-H as an outsider?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I don't know about that, depending on how much it can actually distinguish himself from his brother and to a lesser extent his father. The 62-year-old John Ellis Bush or Jeb towers over his older brother George Walker. They are almost seven years apart. They are almost seven years apart. They are loving, supportive of one another, but wildly different. And like most brothers, competitive.
But those I talk to say that the Bush family, they are on board. They are excited and poised to potentially make history.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): The first name slogan says it all, simply "Jeb".
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I've decided I'm a candidate for president of the United States of America.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
MALVEAUX: The 11th Republican to jump in. Jeb Bush acknowledged his famous family.
J. BUSH: Take that from a guy who met his first president on the day he was born. And his second on the day he was brought home from the hospital. MALVEAUX: But he took pains not to appear entitled.
J. BUSH: And not one of us deserves the job by right of resume, party, seniority, family or family narrative. It's nobody's turn.
MALVEAUX: The two eldest sons of President George H.W. Bush and Barbara are similar in some ways, both deeply religious men, graduates of Phillips Academy, who love supports and worship their father. But those in the family's inner circle say they have never been particularly close.
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: I have no clue where his head is now.
MALVEAUX: Bush 43 admitted in 2014 when asked if his brother would run.
Jeb has also drawn distinct policy line differences.
J. BUSH: I would have not engaged, I would not have gone into Iraq.
MALVEAUX: And that's not where the differences end. George, the extroverted, self-deprecating Ivy League C student.
G.W. BUSH: Kind of surprised to people parts of our country that I can write, much less read. And --
MALVEAUX: Referred to by his siblings as the family clown, leaving no one safe from his humor, including me.
G.W. BUSH: You used to be known as Suzanne, now you are Suzanne.
MALVEAUX (on camera): Suzanne, thank you.
G.W. BUSH: I'm George.
(LAUGHTER)
MALVEAUX: While Jeb is admittedly the introvert, a policy wonk fluent in Spanish.
It was Jeb who was expected to follow in his father's political footsteps, to avenge H.W.'s loss to Clinton in 1992. But in '94, the Bush brothers surprised everyone when Jeb lost the governor's race in Florida while George won it in Texas, an upset that a dozen years later brought their father to tears.
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: When Floridians chose to rehire the governor, they took note of his defeated opponent, who showed, not merely with words but by his actions, what decency --
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: Clearly, a lot of love and pride there. So far, President George Bush says he's going to stay away from Jeb Bush's campaign because voters don't like political dynasties. Perhaps an illustration of that, while not scientific, while Jeb Bush's speech was going live, the #nomorebush was trending on Twitter -- Erin.
BURNETT: That's pretty interesting.
All right. Thank you so much, Suzanne.
And OUTFRONT now, Matthew Dowd. He served as chief strategist for President George W. Bush's 2004 reelection campaign and our own Dana Bash, who was at Jeb Bush's presidential announcement today.
All right, Matthew, you know both men. How complicated is their relationship? Their brothership?
MATTHEW DOWD, CHIEF STRATEGIST FOR THE BUSH-CHENEY '04 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Well, it's a family that doesn't share a lot of their personal dynamics out to anybody, even people like me who have been on staff for them in 2000 and 2004.
BURNETT: Yes.
DOWD: I would describe it this way, and I haven't been in meetings with Jeb a number of times and obviously know George W. as governor and then as president, is Jeb probably has a much higher policy I.Q. -- is the best way to describe it, much more into the details of the policy, much -- knows those details. George W. Bush has a deeper emotional IQ.
So, if you were in a meeting with 20 people, you would think, Jeb knows all the specifics of the policy. But I really want to go out with George W. and hang out with him.
BURNETT: He made me feel comfortable?
DOWD: And he made me feel comfortable. He's like one of us. He's self-deprecating. He figured out things in my life that he was interested in and connected with me.
That's a huge difference, especially in a presidential race.
BURNETT: Especially when you are running a campaign. Now, some people say the Bush name is the kiss of death. But this poll, Matthew, I don't know if you heard this, CNN poll right now, George W. Bush is more popular than Barack Obama. OK, everybody, pick your jaws off the floor. This is now a fact. And George H.W. Bush is as popular as Bill Clinton.
So, maybe the Bush name is a good thing.
DOWD: Well, I think there are some positives associated with the Bush name. But I think when you ask that question, which I totally agree with and I have seen those numbers, it's different if you ask do you want to see a third term of.
[19:35:02] Do you want to see a third term of George W. Bush and his brother?
BURNETT: Right.
DOWD: And same with Hillary Clinton, do you want a third term of Barack Obama in Hillary Clinton or Bill Clinton?
I think that's the difference. And I think voters react to that, because I think voters -- I look at this race right now with these two candidates, one came out and had her speech Saturday and Jeb who came out in a speech today, it's like "Jurassic World" a little bit for voters, which is the dinosaurs, they want to figure out how to be successful.
And campaigns are only the win if they are about the future. Jeb has the same problem that Hillary does, which is there is something about it that says the past.
BURNETT: The "Jurassic Park", I love it.
I mean, Dana, you just spoke to Jeb a few days ago. You were there at the announcement today. But when you talked to him, you asked how he plans to identify himself. And I thought your question and his answer was very telling. So, let me play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Who is Jeb Bush?
J. BUSH: Well, Jeb is different than George. Jeb is who he is. My life story is different.
I don't have to disassociate myself from my family. I love them. But I know that I'm on -- for me to be successful, I have to show my heart and tell my story.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: He is one who's trying to differentiate himself, right? He is the one focused on telling voters he is his own man. All you did was say, who is Jeb?
BASH: Yes. Well, look, he has to. He has no choice, because of what Matthew just said in a very illustrative way, because of the "Jurassic Park" issue. I mean, the fact of the matter is, that they know --
BURNETT: And, obviously, we just lost Dana.
Shock there, Matthew, they were doing -- we got it back? Dana?
OK, go ahead.
BASH: You have me here?
BURNETT: Yes.
BASH: So what Jeb Bush's advisers and friends know is that there are a lot of people out there, most people don't know hem. They can't get past the name bush. But that he is very different. He is extremely different from his father and his brother. I mean, just like all of us. We're all different from our siblings.
It's not just personally. It's also when it comes to his interests, when it comes to what he has done. So that was very much obviously the goal of this speech today, where I am here. You can hear them breaking down here.
The idea was to get him to talk about his accomplishments here in Florida, to talk about things he has done.
And, yes, of course, as Matthew was saying, there's a lot of hunger for something new and different. And what he is hoping is that people don't really -- people will realize, well, you know what? Maybe he is not the guy we thought he was. We kind of do want somebody who has proven leadership. We want to have somebody who I have heard so many times from his camp is an adult in the room. So, that's also what he is banking on. That's what he played up here today.
BURNETT: In our final five seconds, Matthew, what are the odds he's a nominee?
DOWD: I think they have dropped dramatically over the last 60 days. I think he's in a very difficult spot because he's lost momentum. Now a field that's 15 candidates, it's going to be very hard for him to break through. Still a possibility, but I think it's low.
BURNETT: It's a longer shot.
All right. Thanks very much to you, Matthew, and to Dana, of course, in Miami.
And OUTFRONT next, two terrorist leaders both reportedly killed in American drone strikes. Were they, though? Are they actually dead? We have a live report next.
And shark attacks on two teens 90 minutes apart at the same beach. Here is part of the desperate 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: We have somebody, a shark -- a shark attack.
DISPATCH: OK, ma'am, I need you to quit yelling at me and listen.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:42:26] BURNETT: Breaking news at this hour: a top al Qaeda leader killed by an American drone strike. This is according to national security officials in Yemen. Nasser al-Wuhayshi was the second in command of al Qaeda globally.
Jim Sciutto is OUTFRONT. And, Jim, this is a big blow to al Qaeda's leadership, isn't it?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this point, a U.S. intelligence official is telling CNN that the U.S. is looking to confirm that he was killed. But as you say, Yemeni officials say he is dead. In fact, jihadi Web sites saying not only tht he's dead, but he's already been replaced.
Keep this in mind, he is the number one and number two official in the two greatest terror threats to the U.S. Number one official, number one leader of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, the number two leader, the deputy to Ayman al-Zawahiri in core al Qaeda and the presumed successor to him. This is a guy who goes back to bin Laden days. He was a lieutenant to bin Laden in Afghanistan, around the time of 9/11, a lot of credibility in the organization.
If it turns out, he is dead, it is a significant blow. These leaders are hard to replace in credibility if they can be replaced in name very quickly.
BURNETT: And now, they are also saying another key figure was killed by a drone strike this weekend named Mokhtar Belmokhtar. He was behind the attack on western oil workers in Algeria, 37 hostages killed in that, the mastermind of a lot more. When I was in Africa reporting in al Qaeda's resurgent, I spoke with his right-hand man.
And you know what, Jim? I asked him if he and Belmokhtar, you know, were planning attacks. And here is what he said.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OMAR HAMAHA, LEADER OF ANSAR DINE (through translator): Listen, speak in French. No, no, listen. I do not speak to a woman. If you would like to speak to me, give me a man. It's necessary to respect our religion. We are -- we do not speak to women. Do you hear me?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BURNETT: That was that time, Jim. I spoke to them again through a male translator. The topic at that time was their goal of killing Americans.
How big would this kill be for the U.S.?
SCIUTTO: And they succeeded, of course, a year later with that attack, you talked about on the refinery. It would be significant.
So, he's the leader of another al Qaeda arm. It was al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, Northern Africa. He spread off from that and formed his own kind of freelance group, but really tied again.
And what's interesting about this, Erin, if you look in the past several weeks, you have significant blows struck, leaders killed. Abu Sayyaf, a significant ISIS leader killed on the ground in Syria. You would have this leader in North Africa killed by a strike. And then this leader of AQAP killed in Yemen. Three successes, presumed they're all confirmed successes, but three successful strikes from U.S. drones in a short span of time.
[19:45:02] That's significant, coincidental timing, you might say. U.S. officials saying that there's no tie between them. But the timing very interesting and real blows in light of all the threats that we're talking about from these groups.
BURNETT: Jim, thank you.
And OUTFRONT next, two shark attacks at the same beach on the same day. The victims, teens, they both lost an arm. Was it the same shark? And why is the beach open today?
And Jeanne Moos with the deadly floods that destroyed a zoo, unleashing hundreds of animals. Incredible video coming your way.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: A North Carolina beach still open today after two teenagers lost their arms in separate shark attacks 90 minutes apart this weekend. A 13-year-old girl was swimming in shallow waist-deep water when she was attacked and a 16-year-old boy was attacked less than two miles away. Calls poured into 911 as the incidents unfolded.
Here's a bit.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
[19:50:01] DISPATCH: We have gotten several calls, and we're getting help on the way. Are any of the fingers completely amputated?
CALLER: It looks like her entire hand is gone.
DISPATCH: Is there serious bleeding?
CALLER: Yes, there is serious bleeding.
DISPATCH: Is he alert right now?
CALLER: Is he alert? Is he alert?
He's alert.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BURNETT: It's the third shark attack in three days in this one North Carolina county.
And OUTFRONT tonight, the first responders, Tracy Carnes and Robert Hollyfield. They were the first on the scene to help the teens after the attacks, and I appreciate both of you being with us. It has to be horrible what you went through, but you saved lives of these two kids.
Tracy, you were helping the 13-year-old girl, the first victim. What did you see?
TRACY CARNES, BRUNSWICK COUNTY PARAMEDIC: When we first came to the beach, the outpour of help for the bystanders was amazing. Got on to the beach, and they were all attending to the little girl along with the Oak Island fire department.
BURNETT: And can you believe what you saw? I mean, you know, she's lost an arm. I mean, you think about it. You saved her life.
CARNES: I credit, again, the bystanders. Tourniquets were in place by the time I got there. They were all helping the little girl. It was amazing.
ROBERT HOLLYFIELD, BRUNSWICK COUNTY PARAMEDIC: The public's ability to adapt to a situation they found themselves in is what absolutely saved this patients' lives. Their quick action.
BURNETT: Which is amazing what it says about what people are capable of.
Robert, I know you were there. Do you think it was the same shark in both cases?
HOLLYFIELD: We have no way to know if it was the same animal life that did both incidents or not. There's no way we can confirm that.
BURNETT: Are you surprised that that beach is open? You know, when you think about it, two attacks in one day, 90 minutes apart, another attack a couple of days before. You know, it seems shocking that beach is open.
HOLLYFIELD: I'm personally not surprised. That's something, you know, it's possible any time you are on the beach. We're walking into their environment.
So, you know, 24/7, 365, that's a possibility when you visit the beach and go into the ocean side. Me personally, no, I'm not surprised at all that the beaches are still open.
BURNETT: Tracy, with all the work that you have done there, I mean, are you surprised? I know sharks obviously do attack in shallow water, but shallow water waist deep, this little girl was not far out. Are you surprised about where this happened and what that might say about the shark?
CARNES: I'm not -- I wouldn't say I was surprised about it. It's usually where we go into the water, and most people only go in about waist high, I would say. So -- and, I mean, it is a public beach --
BURNETT: All right. Well, I appreciate both of you taking the time and, you know, incredible the work that you did to save those two children's lives. Thank you.
HOLLYFIELD: Yes, ma'am.
CARNES: Thank you.
BURNETT: And OUTFRONT next, Jeanne Moos, with dramatic video, zoo flood, alligator on the loose, hippo running wild. You're going to see the video.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:57:51] BURNETT: There's an alligator, a hippo running free through city streets.
Here's Jeanne Moos.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A lion loose on the highway? A hippo roaming the streets? A bear perched above an air conditioner?
Sights we're not conditioned to see in the city like Tbilisi, the capital of the former Soviet republic of Georgia.
It was as if Noah's ark emptied out after flash flooding destroyed much of Tbilisi's zoo, leaving it feeling like a ghost zoo. The zebras were all right, but the bears seemed to bare the brunt.
The zoo says half of its 600 animals were missing from their enclosures.
Zoo spokesperson called it a "hellish whirlpool", which only got more hellish as more bodies surfaced. The death toll for people at the zoo -- was three.
There were a few happy endings. The hippo was tranquilized and returned to the zoo, as was this crocodile.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: One man is reported to have found a hyena on his balcony when he got up in the morning.
MOOS: And unknown number of animals were shot, so many that the zoo posted on their Facebook page, "We beg, if somewhere you see an animal, don't kill it. Just call us."
The zoo's director said some policemen exceeded their authority. Officials said some of the animals were just too aggressive to be captured and had to be shot.
Among the casualties, one of the zoo's most beloved animals, Zhumba (ph), a white lion. Last year he was just a cub. His body was found on the zoo grounds in raging sun.
"It was shot in the head by emergency forces? There is no excuse for that. I am disgusted."
But another tweeted, "Animals were posing a threat for people, and this is the last thing to worry about because many people died."
When the flood came, man and beast ended up in the same boat.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: A sad story when you think about what's happening there.
Thank you so much for joining us. Be sure to set your DVR to record the show so you can watch us at any time.
"AC360" starts now.
