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Erin Burnett Outfront
Trump Takes Big Lead in New National Poll; Graham Calls Donald Trump A "Jackass"; Sources: Gunman's Writings Were Anti-American; Killer Reveals Elaborate New York Prison Escape Plan. Aired 7-7:30p ET
Aired July 20, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:09] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT tonight, number one, Donald Trump now at the top of a major new national poll, even after saying John McCain is no war hero. Tonight, presidential candidate and John McCain's best friend Lindsey Graham tells me Donald Trump is, quote, "a jackass."
Plus, just in tonight, new details about the New York prison break. How David Sweat set almost every night in the prison tunnel working on his escape and not a single person seemed to notice.
And shark attack again. A pro-surfer battles a great white shark, all of it caught on live TV. Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan in for Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, a major new national poll just out. The headline, Donald Trump is number one. Not only is he leading Republicans in the race for the White House right now, but he has almost twice the support of his closest opponent. The Washington Post, ABC News poll was taken just as Trump ignited a new round of criticism calling out Vietnam veteran and prisoner of war Senator John McCain, saying McCain was not a war hero. The poll shows Trump with 24 percent support.
That's 11 points ahead of Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker in second place and double the support that Jeb Bush has. The rest of the field in single digits. And Trump's support may have even registered higher, but the pollsters say, he did take a hit following his comments about McCain. Meanwhile, no surprise, Donald Trump will not be apologizing to Senator McCain. Instead, Trump remains defiant doubling down on his criticism with McCain. Here he is just moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But he should apologize to the 15,000 people that have been fighting, you know, illegal immigration and are petrified to be living where they are living.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: We will going to hear from John McCain's son who is a navy pilot himself in just a moment, and you do not want to miss this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That he's a jackass.
BOLDUAN: Really?
GRAHAM: That he is bringing his name down and he is not helping the process. And he shouldn't be commander-in-chief.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Hmm. McCain's good friend and presidential candidate Lindsey Graham passionate response to Trump. We're going to have that in a moment.
Let's begin our coverage with senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny now. So, Jeff, amid the criticism that we're seeing tonight, we have this brand new poll. What does this say about how voters though are responding to Donald Trump's comments about John McCain?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, I think it says a couple of things. One, I mean, it's a segment that the electorate is restless, angry and clearly not happy about where Washington is going here. But Donald Trump is defiant all day long. Even as this divides the GOP.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: He is not a war hero.
ZELENY (voice-over): Donald Trump is overtaking the republican presidential race. For that, and everything else, he makes no apologies.
TRUMP: I'm not a fan of John McCain. He's done a terrible job for the vets.
ZELENY: His spat with John McCain is escalating ever since he questions whether the former POW in Vietnam was actually a war hero.
TRUMP: He is not a war hero. He is a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured. Okay? I hate to tell you.
ZELENY: Jack McCain, the senator's son and a navy pilot tweeted, "There are lines you do not cross. Trump crossed one." He told CNN, Trump disparaged the service of all POWs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that's an inflammatory statement for somebody that's trying to be the commander-in-chief of the United States military.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You think it's disqualifying?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing in politics is disqualifying. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even this. I hope that his personality is shown through, that his -- whether it was an off-handed comment or not if that's his true belief, then there needs to be some serious soul searching as to whether or not he's a viable candidate for president.
ZELENY: Senator McCain himself took the high road.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I think he may owe an apology to the families of those who have sacrificed in conflict and those who have undergone the prison experience in serving our country.
TRUMP: He lost. He let us down.
ZELENY: Most Republicans piled on Trump and rallied to McCain's defense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a legitimate hero that has served his country in lots of ways. And Mr. Trump knows that. He should just apologize.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not just absurd. It's offensive. It's ridiculous. And I do think it's a disqualifiers commander-in-chief.
ZELENY: But one candidate didn't join in. Ted Cruz who visited Trump's last week blamed the media.
[19:05:02] TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, I recognize that folks in the press love to see republican on republican violence. And so, you want me to say something bad about Donald Trump. I'm not going to do it.
ZELENY: While the GOP establishment hoped Trump goes away, voters we talked to in New Hampshire and South Carolina were decidedly mixed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's not qualified to be president. And his candidacy really is all about Donald.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is fit to be president. He just needs to watch what he is saying.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZELENY: As you can hear, the views of voter are mixed. I mean, those who find Trump appealing before this controversy might still, because they are looking for a very different kind of candidate. But for those who may have only been checking Trump out, all those voters may be turned off by this. But one note about that "Washington Post" poll is conducted Thursday through Sunday. His support fell a little bit on the final day. But he is still at 24 percent nationally, twice as high as any other candidate -- Kate.
BOLDUAN: Yes. It shows that he had the room to take that hit with the amount that he has surged in the poll. ZELENY: That's right.
BOLDUAN: Jeff, thank you so much.
ZELENY: Earlier, I spoke to one of Trump's presidential republican rivals, Lindsey -- Senator Lindsey Graham. I asked him what his first thought was when he heard Trump's comments about his good friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: That he's a jackass.
BOLDUAN: Really?
GRAHAM: That he is bringing his name down and he is not helping the process. And he shouldn't be commander-in-chief. If you want to be commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces, you need to understand that John McCain and all like him, not just John, are truly American. No one put yourself when you put yourself in harm's way, that makes you a hero. But you know what I think what makes you the hero, when you are the spouse raising kids when your loved one is deployed. I've been in the military for 33 years. Truly, it's a team and family.
So, what he said about John I think was offensive. He is becoming a jackass at a time when we need to have a serious debate about the future of the party and the country. We're on the verge of giving an Iranian Ayatollah who is a radical jihadist a pathway to a nuclear bomb but we're literally falling apart. We are becoming Greece here at home. All we are talking about is Donald Trump and everybody he insults. But he's crossed the line here. And maybe some frustration with our border. I get that. That's no justification.
BOLDUAN: What's the line he crossed?
GRAHAM: Saying that John McCain and people like him are not American heroes. The American people will not tolerate what he is doing regarding those who have served. This is a line he has crossed. And this is the beginning of the end of Donald Trump.
BOLDUAN: You seem angry.
GRAHAM: I am really pissed. Because come on, you know, John and I have been buddies. Forget about John. What about bud day? A Medal of Honor winner in Iowa that I got to know through John. I cannot tell you how many prisoners of wars I met through John McCain and all of them are incredible people. So, it's not about john. It's about all of those who have experienced captivity. And when they asked Trump, you know, "do you know what he went through?" "No, that doesn't matter." Yes, it does man. It matters to them a lot.
It matters a lot that you would be tortured for five-and-a-half years trying to defend your nation. So, I'm confident the people of Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina will figure this out. I'm really frankly tired of this. The world is falling apart. My party is trying to re-emerge as a viable national voice. I think we're on the verge of a good comeback here. And every time I turn around, I'm being asked about Donald Trump saying one dump thing after another. And I'm tired of it.
BOLDUAN: And you make a good point. John McCain, he's not talking about this a lot. He doesn't want to talk a lot about this.
GRAHAM: Yes. He won't.
BOLDUAN: He says, he doesn't need an apology from Donald Trump. What do you want to hear from Donald Trump if anything?
GRAHAM: Tell me what you would do about anything. Tell me how you would solve the immigration problem. Tell me what you would do with Iran. You know, articulate a solution to Americans -- America's problems. Stop disparaging people like Senator McCain. It doesn't elevate you. It gets us all off in a ditch. Trying to realize you are running for the highest office in the land, the strongest voice in the world. You take the quest more seriously.
BOLDUAN: You say this is the beginning of the end of Donald Trump.
GRAHAM: I think so.
BOLDUAN: Why then is he still topping the polls, Senator? The new ABC News Washington Post poll, it was just released -- you probably haven't even had a chance to see it since you were in the event. He is now surged, Donald Trump, to 24 percent, that's nearly twice the nearest republican rival.
GRAHAM: Yes. But I think what's going to happen is that we get serious as a party about picking our nominee, we're going to look at ourselves and say, who do we want to send into the arena to win the White House in 2016? Who is the best person to represent our values? Where are the party of the military? The thing I like most about my party is that we are strong on the national defense, we have had a history of being the soldier's best friend and their families. So, what Donald Trump said about John McCain and all those who have served is out of sync with our party. Our party is a group of very hard working decent people. So, when Donald Trump said that most of the illegal immigrants are rapist and drug dealers, I don't think our party will say, no, that's not who we want in the arena with Hillary Clinton. Because that voice is a loser's voice. I want a winner's voice.
BOLDUAN: For you the campaign continues. Senator, thank you so much.
GRAHAM: The campaign continues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:10:41] BOLDUAN: Strong comments there from Senator Lindsey Graham. Joining me now to respond is Donald Trump's presidential campaign
manager Corey Lewandowski. Corey, thanks so much for coming in tonight.
COREY LEWANDOWSKI, DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Great to be here.
BOLDUAN: So, you heard Senator Graham right there. Donald Trump, he says, is a jackass. What do you guys say in response to that?
LEWANDOWSKI: Well, clearly, it's a politically motivated statement. You have a candidate who is running for president of the United States who is registering low in the polls. He is trying to do anything to make the debate stage. And he needs to get on TV and talk about a message which clearly his message is not resonating with the American public.
BOLDUAN: What about the fact that he says, start disparaging, start coming up with solutions?
LEWANDOWSKI: Look, Mr. Trump has been very clear. Lindsey Graham and John McCain are in favor of amnesty for illegal aliens. Mr. Trump has been very clear that that is not the path that we want to take in this country. We want to have legal citizenship. And the fact that this whole thing started when John McCain called 15,000 hardworking Americans crazies in Arizona --
BOLDUAN: He said that affectionately.
LEWANDOWSKI: Well, it's not affectionately. Every time Senator McCain says something they give him a pass, whether they are whacky, whack birds or whacko birds or crazies, he gets a pass. He is a hardworking Americans, the best of individuals possible who wants something better for their country. And there was no media outcry, no push back from Senator McCain saying, where is your apology. Why don't we ask where his apology is to those hardworking people who showed up in Phoenix that day to stand-up for their country?
BOLDUAN: That is one thing to say, you are wrong, these folks weren't crazy, and it's another thing to question something that folks say is not in question is his military service. And that gets me to where we are in the polls right now. This is a big day for your campaign. Donald Trump is now topping the latest poll 24 percent. It would have been higher had this comment not happened. The pollsters say he took a hit following this comment. Does that worry you?
LEWANDOWSKI: I don't agree with that. So, there are two polls that came out today. One just came out in Iowa, that was done both pre and post the comments on Saturday.
BOLDUAN: Both of them were down in the same period.
LEWANDOWSKI: And like I said, when you look at the Iowa poll Mammoth University, very well respected poll. It says, Mr. Trump's numbers were exactly the same -- BOLDUAN: Thirteen, 13, yes.
LEWANDOWSKI: Thirteen before and after. And if you look at the ABC poll, what they showed was eight percent of the entire poll was done on Sunday. Which means 92 percent was done on the --
BOLDUAN: And they acknowledge that, Corey. They say, it was --
(CROSSTALK)
LEWANDOWSKI: There's this statistical error. There's this statistical error.
BOLDUAN: You think it's a statistical error. They say it did show a statistical significance. That doesn't worry -- bottom-line, let's not argue about polls. Does it worry you that they did see a dip in his polls following the comments?
LEWANDOWSKI: The whole purpose of a long term poll is the statistical significant sampling. And eight percent of the polls is not a statistical significant sample. If you look at the --
BOLDUAN: You guarantee. You are not going to see a dip in the next poll?
LEWANDOWSKI: No, I don't guarantee anything in politics. But what I do know is that Mr. Trump is at 24 percent. His next closest competitors had 13 percent. If I would want to have a choice of where I want to be, I want to be Mr. Trump at 24 percent leading the polls and not being apologetic for standing up for our country to make America great again.
BOLDUAN: And you guys will head to South Carolina tomorrow. You're going to be with veterans tomorrow?
LEWANDOWSKI: We'll be there tomorrow. Absolutely.
BOLDUAN: All right. Thanks so much for coming in.
LEWANDOWSKI: Thanks for having me.
BOLDUAN: OUTFRONT next, the shooter who killed five service members in Tennessee. Law enforcement sources are revealing his anti- American writings, was he inspired by ISIS?
Plus, convicted killer David Sweat shocking new details tonight on how he and a fellow prisoner broke out from that maximum security prison in Upstate, New York. A live report is coming up.
And a great white shark pulls a surfer under, all of it caught on camera. How did he survive with clearly seems a very close brush with death.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:18:00] BOLDUAN: Tonight, new clues into the mind of a killer who slaughtered four marines and a sailor. A friend of Muhammad Abdulazeez telling CNN that the 24-year-old behind Thursday's rampage in Chattanooga spoke of ISIS and other terror groups. We're also learning from sources that he may have left behind writings of what authorities are calling anti-American. So, could this be what's behind Abdulazeez's opening fire on two military facilities?
Drew Griffin is OUTFRONT tonight live in Chattanooga. So, Drew, what are authorities now saying about these anti-American writings?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The first thing I need to tell you Kate is they are not recent. Some are more than a year ago, before he ever went to Jordan. They do contain writings, according to our sources, that are anti-U.S., specifically anti-U.S. policy in the Middle East. But they also include, according to sources, writings of someone who may be suicidal. There isn't anything right now that says in his own hand this is why I shot these five marines. They're still very puzzled by this as they continue to dig to find out who he was talking with, who he was communicating with and what, if any connection there is to radical Islam.
BOLDUAN: Seems to be a lot to be puzzled about still. And part of this is you also spoke to a friend of his who says Abdulazeez spoke about ISIS but it's not what everyone would think. Right?
GRIFFIN: Yes. Absolutely. James Petty is the friend's name. And he converted to Islam just a year ago. He was in a support group. And Muhammad Abdulazeez was sort of the spiritual leader of this small group. They talked often about a lot of issues, including ISIS. And this is what Petty says that his friend thought about ISIS. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES PETTY, FRIEND OF CHATTANOOGA SHOOTER: It was a stupid group and it was completely against Islam. And not to even think about going towards them. And I felt like it wasn't kind of in the sense of I'm with their group, so I don't want you to do like me. It was more like just their way this is not where you should be going towards.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: Kate, over the weekend, Abdulazeez's family put out a statement saying their son was depressed, suffering from depression. James Petty says he never saw that in this person that he knew. Always upbeat. Always smiling. He had a big, big problem with marijuana, called him a pot head. But that was it as far as drug abuse. So, it's just more of a confusing picture being painted here. And I don't think right now we're any closer to finding out why this mass murder took place.
BOLDUAN: It sure doesn't seem so. And more answers, more questions. Drew, thanks so much. Drew is on the ground there for us in Tennessee.
OUTFRONT now, Bob Baer, CNN's intelligence and security analyst and of course a former CIA operative. Bob, I really want to get your take about all this. When you take everything that we are now learning about Abdulazeez so far, the writings about anti-American sentiment, he is also against U.S. policy in the war on terror, but no direct connection to any terror groups. At this point, do you consider him a terrorist?
ROBERT BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: I think he's a terrorist. I mean, we don't know what went on in Jordan when that visit -- was he recruited? But really doesn't matter. You have to look at the crime itself. People in uniform. It was conducted during Ramadan. He was the type of person the ISIS would go after. You know, sort of, you know, even the DUI, they are looking for weak people on the margins. They are trying to give a meaning, I mean, everything you look at the face of this attack and it looks like the Islamic State was behind it. And there's another thing Kate we have to keep in mind is the Islamic State understands that the FBI is catching these people when they go up on social networks and they talk about their plans or they buy tickets to Syria. And they are learning. They are learning to stay off the internet. And doing the stuff quietly. And what he said to friends and family is sort of irrelevant. They are also told -- ISIS tells them, don't describe to people what you are going to do. You have to keep discreet. Now, I don't think we're ever going to get to the center of this. But let's see.
BOLDUAN: Well, then -- what Bob, what then to your point, what you do you make the fact that his friend just told Drew Griffin that he spoke out saying, that he said, ISIS was doing wrong and in his words he called ISIS a stupid group, completely against Islam?
BAER: I think it's -- I think the statement is sort of worthless. I mean, that's what he would be instructed to do is to describe ISIS in terms that are unacceptable to him and his philosophy and the rest of it. Because ISIS knows to operate in this country, they have to do it extremely discretely. And the way to do that is not talk to -- talk about your friends. Because the FBI has got agents everywhere. And again, they are looking at social media. And why tip your hand at something like this? But let's go back to the targets, the attack, people in uniform, Ramadan, these same calls were made by the Islamic State whether this was actually plan from Raqqa. The capital of Islamic State, I don't know. But it certainly fits the profile of an Islamic State attack.
[19:23:18] BOLDUAN: And also Bob, according to some sources, the gunman, his family says that he was depressed and he was doing a lot of drugs. But you think that the depression and drug use, they are irrelevant here. Why?
BAER: Well, it's more than irrelevant. This contributes. And this is what ISIS is looking for, that people psychologically weak. You look at the Amman hotel bombings in 2005. One woman was almost retarded. She just didn't know what she was doing. The Islamic State recruits children as suicide bombers. And they are looking for people that really sort of have nothing in the world or don't think they do. And they are offering them meaning and, you know, salvation, if you like. And this message is very easy to get across to these people and it's very effective.
BOLDUAN: Five service members are now dead and no answers for their families, that's for sure. Bob, thank you so much.
BAER: Thanks.
BOLDUAN: OUTFRONT next, convicted killer David Sweat, he reveals that he spent months roaming free inside prison walls until he found an escape route. The amazing new details coming out. That's next.
And also our next guest thinks the latest revelations about Bill Cosby could be a game changer. Will he face charges?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:28:46] BOLDUAN: Just in to CNN, stunning new details on how those two convicted killers were able to escape from a New York State prison, triggering one of the biggest manhunts in recent memory. Investigators who have been interviewing the captured convict David Sweat, they tell "The New York Times" tonight that Sweat plan of escape is one of patience and perfect timing in their words. Sweat reportedly spent months late at night navigating the prison's elaborate maze of tunnels and catwalks looking and trying to chip his way out of the maximum security prison. And it wasn't until the temperatures warmed that Sweat and Richard Matt reportedly got their lucky break.
For more on all of these amazing new details coming out, Miguel Marquez is OUTFRONT. So, Miguel, what more are we learning about this escape plan now?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We reported a lot of these over the breath of this story. We are learning some new things that a New York Times, as Sweat is telling investigators, that he was able to work from 11:30 p.m. until 5:30 a.m. That was the last head count of the night and the first head counts of the next morning. That he had basically free reign of the catacombs, the tunnels underneath there. And at first, his thought was, how do I get out? And he tried to chip through the cement wall of the prison itself using a hand tool and a sledgehammer that he was able to obtain. When that didn't work, he cut a lucky break, May 4th they turned off the steam to the heating system in the prison. That's when he was able to cut through that steam pipe. A lot of questions about how he cut through that steam pipe. He says he did it with a hacksaw and it took him over a month do that, according to this account in "The New York Times" -- Kate.
BOLDUAN: Sounds near impossible still. But there's also a lot of confusion yet as to who was the mastermind behind this escape. What are investigators thinking at this moment about that?
MARQUEZ: Yes, it was assumed for a long time and that Richard Matt was probably the mastermind because he escaped twice before, once successfully. But Sweat telling a different story saying that he was the person behind it, that in January 2015, it really took shape when he was placed next to Matt's cell. He cut through his own cell first and then from Matt's cell from behind. Then they both had access to the tunnels. They even tell one joke, apparently, at "The New York Times", that once they got out, that it only took them 10 years to get out of prison, whereas the Shawshank redemption character, it took 20 years to get out of that fictional prison -- Kate.
BOLDUAN: Looks like they were trying to break some kind of record in trying to break out of prison there. Miguel, thank you so much, Miguel Marquez OUTFRONT for us.
Also OUTFRONT this evening, Arthur Roderick, a retired U.S. marshal, and Harry Houck, CNN law enforcement analyst.
Great to see both of you. A lot to get through these details.
These details, Harry, are extraordinary. Miguel was laying out some of the new stuff that investigators are getting from David Sweat -- things that hits me is he was working from this past winter through spring. He essentially had free reign from 11:30 p.m. every night to go through the catacombs of the prison until 5:30 in the morning.
Still, doesn't this -- shouldn't that shock everyone?
HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It's hard to believe that at 11:30 was the last time they did a bed check. There was no bed check between 11:30 and 5:00? What's going on there?
I mean, apparently, like they have said, it appears that the guards were sleeping. The amount of noise he had to be making with a sledgehammer -- he said he used a sledgehammer on that pipe and to be able make that noise for a month trying to get through that pipe with just a hacksaw, that's incredible.
BOLDUAN: Incredible.
And, Arthur, to Harry's point, impossible to believe they still pulled this off. Is it -- it's possible that David Sweat, that he had been roaming the tombs underneath the prison for months without any of the prison guards noticing. Everyone at this point is believing that they're asleep. Do you believe it, so many months, no one noticing?
ARTHUR RODERICK, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE: Well, hi, Kate.
I mean, I think they're able to corroborate a lot of his story. As you might recall, a week prior to the escape, there was a small riot at the prison. And they got permission to lock the prison down. Unfortunately, they did not lock the honor block down. I don't know what they were doing in the honor block, but it sounds like they just had free rein to do whatever they wanted to do.
And the complacency on the part of the guards in that honor block is just unbelievable to me, that he was able to have free run back there in the catacombs and figure out by trial and error how the heck to get out.
BOLDUAN: Well, exactly to that point, Harry. HOUCK: You know, I don't think he was going down there every
night either. Either him or, you know, matt had to be going back and forth taking turns, because when do you sleep? They work during the day, they have jobs in the prison, work during the day.
So, were they in the catacombs every night? I doubt it. I mean, I'm not so sure about that.
Second, the fact is that, Sweat, conversations with Matt, we can't corroborate. Matt is dead now. So, everything he is saying to us we have to believe if we can corroborate. And just looking to be a bigger hero than he was before when he was in jail.
BOLDUAN: One interesting point that's coming out in "The New York Times" is that it seems at least one inmate did notice something going on, complaining to them about the noise that they were creating, thinking they heard some kind of (INAUDIBLE).
And Richard Matt said, because he's an artist, that he was stretching his canvas, he was working on his canvas, and that's what the noise was about. To me, that just doesn't make sense.
Do you think it was common knowledge that these guys were trying to pull this off? Or do you think it the inmates believed the story?
HOUCK: I don't know. I'm sure the inmates thought something was going on, because they had to hear the noise. They don't want to give anybody up. And apparently, I guess in the honor block, there's no rats to be able to give anybody up there.
So, the fact is that they kept it quiet for a long period of time. They did get to escape. They -- I'm sure they knew about it. There's no doubt in my mind.
BOLDUAN: What do you think, Arthur?
RODERICK: Yes, I think so, too. I think probably quite a few of them knew about it. I mean, it's just one of those situations where -- I mean, when you talk about escapes that happen in general, not just this one but others that have happened in the past and in the more recent future, I mean, they just don't know about it. I also -- I hate glorifying this guy. We got to remember exactly --
BOLDUAN: I totally hear you on that.
RODERICK: Yes.
BOLDUAN: I absolutely hear you. Probably negates even asking my final question to you, guys, which is, what does Richard -- what does David Sweat have to gain here, Harry, from making himself out to be the mastermind and to spilling all of these details?
HOUCK: I think most important thing in this whole investigation is, was there anybody inside the prison working with him?
[19:35:02] I think that's all they really want to know, all right? As far as the break is concerned, they can go on there. They can take a look and see what happened, you know? So, if I was the detective or I was working with the prisons, I would tell them, listen, you're going to be on lockdown 23 hours a day, one hour a day to take a walk. I don't care.
You know, let them know, listen, maybe we will give you two hours to come out. I want to know who else in the prison knew about this escape plan.
BOLDUAN: So, what do you think, Arthur? What's to gain, getting an extra hour to go outside because he's going to be in solitary confinement for so long?
RODERICK: Well, I mean, that's part of it. But we're also talking about him. I mean, he is getting all kinds of notoriety on this escape. I mean, that's part of it. You know, they are going to think he's a folk hero in jail. But I think you are right.
I mean, he's -- from an investigative standpoint, they have to give up all the information. They have already made several changes in security, not only at this facility but other facilities around New York based on what's going on here.
So, I mean, maximum security, lock them down for 23 hours a day, give them the hour out. If he is going to cooperate, then give him more time in the rec yard.
BOLDUAN: "New York Times" describing it as a culture of complacency that they took advantage of. Clearly, more changes needed there. Thanks, guys. Great to see you. Thanks so much.
OUTFRONT next, stunning new details about Bill Cosby's once secret life, admitting in a court document to pursuing young women, banking on his fame and powerful drugs.
And also, a great white shark sneaks up on a surfer, dragging him under while viewers, including the surfer's mother, watched it all happen on live TV.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:40:35] BOLDUAN: OUTFRONT tonight: no word from Bill Cosby since nearly 1,000 pages of shocking testimony became public. He admits to being a philanderer, an expert at reading women's unspoken desires and that he went to great lengths to keep his wife Camille from finding out.
Jean Casarez is OUTFRONT with more on the new revelations.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bill Cosby describes in graphic detail extensive sexual relationships with women outside of his marriage. "I thought I heard her moan. I'm not sure. I was happy feeling that she had an orgasm. I took my hand out. I don't remember if there was buttoning or zipping or whatever. We stood up." The explosive testimony from a 2005 deposition during a civil
suit brought by former Temple University employee Andrea Constand, who claims she was drugged and sexually assaulted.
Cosby claims it was consensual. "I don't hear her say anything and I don't feel her say anything. And so, I continue and I go into the area that is somewhere between permission and rejection. I am not stopped."
Reaction from the women who say they were his victims, outrage.
BARBARA BOWMAN, ALLEGED VICTIM: It makes me sick. And it sends a very wrong message about what consent really means. Consent is not the absence of a no.
CASAREZ: Cosby says he had sexual fun with women and steered away from intercourse to prevent women from falling in love with him. "The act of the penile entrance is something I feel the woman will succumb to more of a romance and more of a feeling, not love. But it's deeper than a playful situation."
As for drugging women, Cosby admits he had seven prescriptions for Quaaludes during the '70s for a bad back. His intent was to give them to woman he socialized with. "Quaaludes happen to be the drugs that kids, young people were using to party with. And there were times I wanted to have them just in case."
Although, he denies any criminal sexual behavior, he says this when asked about Constand, "She believed she was not in the position to consent to intercourse after you gave her the drug. Do you believe that is correct?" Cosby says, "I don't know."
We are learning details of Cosby's methods, asking one of his accusers about her father who died of cancer in order to get closer with her. "Did you ask those questions because you wanted to have sexual contact with her?" "Yes."
Through it all, Cosby's wife has stood by his side and the deposition may explain why. As could by admits to sending secret money to some of his accusers to keep decades of infidelity hidden.
"And the reason you were doing? Who were you preventing from knowing that?" "Mrs. Cosby."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CASAREZ: We have heard from so many accusers of Bill Cosby, we have never heard from Andrea. She was part of a settlement agreement from the 2005 case that never did go to trial. She leads a private life at this point.
But all of the accusers now credit her because she is the one person that had the courage to come out in 2005 in a legal forum against Bill Cosby.
BOLDUAN: And now, you have a legal deposition that is coming to light to hear him in his own words.
CASAREZ: Because of Andrea Constand.
BOLDUAN: Because of that, yes.
Jean, thank you so much.
CASAREZ: Thank you.
BOLDUAN: I want to bring in Stacy Honowitz right now. She's a sex crimes prosecutor.
Stacey, I know you were listening to that along with me Jean's great report. This deposition is quite revealing on how Cosby carried on with women, particularly telling on how he viewed the concept of sexual consent.
I want to reiterate and read one part that has stood out to a lot of folks in this deposition when he says, "I don't hear her say anything and I don't feel her say anything and so I continue and I go into the area that is somewhere between permission and rejection. I am not stopped."
What does that say to you?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: I mean, really, when we have heard this deposition and it was all over of the news all weekend, it's sickening, quite frankly, when you hear in his own words how he talks about that he is really a mind reader. He believes that he knows whether or not this person is consenting.
We all know that if you have to give somebody drugs in order to have sex with them, it's because under normal circumstances, if her mental capacity was there, she didn't want to consent to have success with them. He knew that. So, he is arrogant and he's a narcissist and he truly believes that what he is doing is OK.
[19:45:03] He will never admit that this is criminal behavior, because most people who assault in a sexual way will say that it was consensual and that's what he is saying here.
It's almost as if he is doing them a favor, the celebrity, the fame, no one is ever going to tell on me. And she didn't outright push me away. So, it was my belief that she was consenting to this behavior when we all know it was quite the opposite.
BOLDUAN: And he has never been charged criminally. He has denied any wrongdoing in the brief statements that his team has put out, if you will.
When you look at this deposition, the big question has been all along, the issue of statute of limitations for charges against him. With this deposition coming to light when you hear from him in his own words about these sexual encounters about his approach, for lack of a better testimony, for the lack of a better term, do you see this as a game changer in any legal suit against him? HONOWITZ: Well, I think the public would like this to be a huge
game changer and say now that this has come to light and they basically have validated the claims of these women, let's take him into court. Well, in every state, there's a statute of limitations. And sometimes, the statute is changed by the legislation.
But this one deposition is not going to change the statute if it's already run. Now, there is one case that is still pending, and that's because the allegations are that the victim was underage at the time that the event took place, that the assault took place. And in those cases, the statute is usually extended if you are underage at the time. So, while these other women will not have the opportunity to prosecute, this one case that is under investigation might bring to light a criminal case.
The difference is, if there's defamation cases pending, which there are, because he called these women liars. So, some of them are filing defamation suits. With this deposition, that could ultimately be a game changer because he validates what they all had to say. And none of them had access to the deposition. It's not like they all read this first and said let's jump on the bandwagon. They didn't have knowledge. It was sealed.
So, it's very interesting. This could be a game changer in those civil suits.
BOLDUAN: It has a lot of folks wondering what's going to come out next.
Stacey, thank you so much.
Jean, thank you again for your great reporting.
CASAREZ: Thanks.
BOLDUAN: OUTFRONT next for us, a surfer faces off with a great white shark. The surfer, he doesn't run, he doesn't swim away. He can't run in the water.
He punches the shark in the nose. We have the video.
And also ahead, Jeanne Moos on the cheater's Web site that promises to bring your marriage back to life. Well, it has been hacked. And things should be getting very lively.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:51:31] BOLDUAN: A terrifying brush with death. Tonight, one of the world's greatest surfers is talking about the moment a shark attacked him on live television.
This is the video you are looking at right here.
David McKenzie is OUTFRONT in Jeffreys Bay, South Africa, with how the survivor -- the surfer survived.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The terrifying moments of a great white shark attack unfolding on live TV.
In horrifying slow motion, Mick Fanning one of surfing's greats stalked by an awesome predator off the coast of South Carolina.
MICK FANNING, CHAMPION SURFER: All of a sudden, I sort of saw something behind me. All of a sudden I just jumped from my board. And I just was like, OK, something is going on.
And then I found myself getting dragged under by my leash. And then next thing I know, I saw his fin. And then the next thing it came back around and went again on my board. And yes, and it was like (INAUDIBLE) talking about the shark.
MCKENZIE: Halfway around the world, Fanning's mother watched at take live from Australia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. I realized it must be a shark attack. Well I was absolutely terrified. I thought we lost him.
MCKENZIE: But instead of swimming away, Fanning turned to face the sedan-sized shark and swung a few punches.
FANNING: If I'm going to go down ready to go down with a fight.
MCKENZIE (on camera): Mick Fanning says it was ultimately up to the shark whether he lived or died. For pro suffering, surfing is like a religion. But he says that this attack has put his life into focus.
FANNING: Waking up this morning, I spoke to family and friends and I cried a little bit, and it's yes, it's -- I don't know. You never know. You're just luck. You just think whatever gods is out there, or whatever, just to say thanks, thanks for looking after me.
MCKENZIE (voice-over): The attack has rattled the pro surfing community. But this story could have ended so much worse. And Fanning says he just wants to get home to Australia to give his mom a hug.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCKENZIE: Well, Mick is clearly deeply shaken by this experience. All playing out on live TV here in South Africa. And he is on his way back home to his mother in Australia. But you know what, he says he is going to be back on the waves soon, but certainly, it's going to be with a lot more trepidation after his near close shave with a giant shark -- Kate.
BOLDUAN: The fact that his first reflex was to punch and fight the shark just amazing. And his poor, poor mother watching.
David, thank you so much. Amazing stuff. Coming OUTFRONT for us, Jeanne Moos undercover on the undercovers
Web site for cheating spouses , Ashley Madison.
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[19:58:06] BOLDUAN: Some cheating spouses are probably freaking out tonight. Why? Well, here's Jeanne Moos.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Ashley Madison Web site for people who want to cheat --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Life is short, have an affair.
MOOS: -- is known for its catchy slogan.
Now, members are worried they will get caught, thanks to hackers who taunted the company with welcome to your worst bleeping nightmare. Close down your site or else.
The hackers are threatening to release customer records including secret sexual fantasies. Not to mention real names and addresses.
The writer who broke the story says the hackers contacted him and for an hour and a half, the accounts of several thousand individuals were viewable online.
BRIAN KREBS, KREBSONSECURITY.COM: Whether they're interested in, in sex with multiple partners, or with partners of the same sex.
MOOS: This after the Web site boasted of the security and discretion.
VOICE: Ashley Madison.
MOOS: I signed up as a guest with the user name Dolly Madison 5 to check out profiles. From sexysidedish2 to the porkchopqueen, to bustyforlusty, all probably sweating bullets that they'll get busted for infidelity. That they're online escapades will be exposed like Anthony Weiner's.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: You would know if this is your underpants --
ANTHONY WEINER (D), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: The question, I appreciate you continuing to flash that at me.
MOOS: Ashley Madison, the site that loves to provoke with billboards like your wife is hot but so are ours is now in the hot seat, saying, "We have been able to secure our sites and close the unauthorized access points."
The suspicion is that --
KREBS: This was somebody who had an ax to grind against the company, probably a former employee.
MOOS: Spilling sex secrets isn't your useable hack job.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can change your credit card number. You can't change your fetishes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sexual proclivities. This is not Best Buy or Home Depot.
MOOS: No, this is home wrecker.
Dolly Madison 5, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BOLDUAN: Come on, people, serves you right I guess.
Thanks for joining us.
"AC360" starts right now.
