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Erin Burnett Outfront

Massive Manhunt For Cop Killers; Trump: Immigration Attack "Weak Hit" By Bush. Aired 7-8:00p ET

Aired September 01, 2015 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:10] PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT tonight, breaking news, three men on the run tonight after an Illinois police officer is gunned down in cold blood. Local, state and federal officers scouring northern Illinois. We've live at the scene.

Plus, Donald Trump and Jeb Bush trading attacks and insults on a daily basis but is Trump targeting the wrong man? Also, Trump sounding like a democrat on at least one key question. Why is he bucking the party on a signature issue for the GOP? Let's go OUTFRONT.

Good evening, I'm Pamela Brown in for Erin Burnett. And OUTFRONT tonight, breaking news. A massive manhunt in Illinois, police, state and federal agents on the hunt tonight for three men suspected of shooting and killing a police lieutenant. A ground and air search is underway for two white men and one black man who allegedly gunned down Officer Joseph Gliniewicz early this morning. Authorities found Gliniewicz a 30-year-veteran of the force in a marshy area and his gun and pepper spray gone. A visibly shaken Mayor -- remembered the officer known as G.I. Joe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR DONNY SCHMIT, FOX LAKE, ILLINOIS: Today not only did Fox Lake lose a family member, I lost a very dear friend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Community obviously shaken up there. And this is all happening an hour north of Chicago right near the Wisconsin border and the no fly zone is in effect over a two-mile radius in that area.

Our Ryan Young is OUTFRONT tonight from the scene. So, Ryan, what is the latest with the manhunt?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you can hear the pain in the mayor's voice but you can see all the officers who arrived here, a lot of it with stone faces while they moved through this area. In fact, we're in an area where they are doing staging for this entire operation and we've seen officer after officer flow into this area to make sure they are part of this. We've seen officers in the back of pickup trucks with long weapons, we've seen them in ATVs and we've seen them on train tracks as they try to make sure this perimeter is set. Now, we've actually talked to a business owner in the area that they believe the man ran toward the wood line in this direction and from every direction that we can see, we can see groups of officers working together as far as the eye can see to make sure a certain neighborhood over here is cordoned off.

We do know this officer was a father. A 32-year vet who did made that call after seeing three suspicious men and they took off on foot after them. And of course, he was shot and killed. The three men, two described as white, one described as black, we've been hoping to get more information about what the description of this men are. But so far that's what police provided us. And as you can hear right now, even as I've talked to you, the helicopter, the police helicopter is over our head searching this area. It's been a very hot day and you can see officers obviously and everyone else, the heat is taking a toll but there have been some people who say, obviously, they're hoping the people who are out there are also feeling the pain of trying to run from these officers. This is a town of about 10,000 people and a lot of people have reflections on this officer, someone who is called G.I. Joe but someone who served this community for quite a long time and at this point the massive manhunt continues, three men still remain on the loose.

BROWN: Okay. Ryan Young, thank you so much.

And OUTFRONT tonight, Mike Drews who actually worked at that business right in Ryan's live shot, he's the owner of that business located less than a quarter mile from where the lieutenant was shot and killed. Mike, thanks for coming on. I know you must be pretty shaken following the events today. You got into work and then moments after this lieutenant was shot, what was the scene like?

MIKE DREWS, OWNS BUSINESS NEAR SHOOTING SITE: You know, when I first got here this morning at about 8:00, there was not too many cops driving around but there was a small police presence. I probably would say three to six cop cars driving up and down the street and a couple of police officers working up and down the road with their guns out, but we didn't exactly know what was going on at that point in time. It wasn't until half an hour later until we finally found out that they were searching for somebody and that they had shot an officer.

BROWN: And at that moment, I'm sure one of your first thoughts was my child, you have three children, one of them was in lockdown at a school nearby. We know the lockdown has been lifted. Many parents, though, are still having trouble getting their kids home. What are you doing right now to keep your family safe? Are you concerned?

DREWS: You know, right away in the morning I was concerned for everybody. Two of my kids didn't have school today but my oldest was in high school and she was on lockdown today. Apparently, they had them laying on the ground in their classroom for several hours today but they finally lifted that at about 3:45, but it took my fiancee almost an hour to drive approximately a mile and a half to go pick her up and it was about almost 5:00 when they finally picked her up from school.

[19:05:01] BROWN: Wow. And police have said that the lieutenant was checking on some suspicious activity. We don't know exactly what that was. Do you have any idea what it could have been? Have there been issues with crime in that area recently?

DREWS: No, it's a pretty quiet town. We don't really have crimes so to speak. We kind of live in an area where everybody can leave their doors unlocked still. We have a pretty small police force around here. Not much like this ever happens around here for sure.

BROWN: And we're looking at some live aerials where the manhunt is taking place. I'm just curious, you're familiar with this area. What is it like? Let's set the stage for us, if you would.

DREWS: Well, we live, you know, it's like a small community about 10,000 people. There's like a main artery that comes through town that leads towards the highway. So, a lot of people come driving through town. The area where this all went down is a pretty fairly big wooded area. The reason it's vacant is because it's flood territory so they can't build anything over there. So it's really empty and pretty marshy back there. My business here is right off around 12. But just to the back of that, is where the marsh land starts and it goes, you know, probably, you know, it's at least a good mile, two square miles, you know, from end to end from highway to highway. So it's a pretty big area they can hide in.

BROWN: Right. We know they are still on the loose these three suspects. Mike Drews, thank you so much for coming on to talk to us.

DREWS: Sure, thank you very much.

BROWN: And OUTFRONT, former NYPD Detective Sergeant Joe Giacalone, and Lenny DePaul, a former commander for the U.S. Marshals.

Thanks for coming on. Joe, I'm going to start with you. Because we know these men have been on the run now for almost 12 hours. There is only about an hour left of sun light in that area. How crucial is this next hour for authorities?

JOSEPH GIACALONE, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE SERGEANT: Yes. You want to get them as soon as possible. Once it hits dark, I mean, you're going to have to scale back this massive manhunt. You know, it's not only dangerous for the officers, you know, but dogs that are out there, the marsh lands, you can't be walking at the traps, I mean, some of them you can fall in, you know, three, four feet deep. So, they have to be very mindful of that. But they might be also, you know, put up some helicopters with some of the infrared, too, that might help too. You know, the heat in the dogs, that takes a toll on them so they have to make sure that we can get them enough rest, too. So, we want to be able to get this over with as soon as we can.

BROWN: Absolutely. And on that note, Lenny, what do authorities need to do in this next hour to make sure that not only this next hour but moving forward make sure these suspects don't escape days, weeks or forever because I imagine time is of the essence and the longer it goes by, the harder it becomes.

LENNY DEPAUL, FORMER COMMANDER, U.S. MARSHALS REGIONAL FUGITIVE TASK FORCE: That's right. Pamela. Timing is everything. You know, it's been several hours now that they have been on this manhunt. It's certainly intense right where the crime was committed but there is an investigation going on, too, behind the scenes so nobody has been identified yet. I mean, you got an over 30-year veteran that approached these three individuals for some reason. A foot pursuit ensued and he put it over the air. I don't see him in knowing a little bit about his background, he's not going to chase three guys, he's probably chased one, he might up caught up to one. You know, they could have gotten into some sort of a wrestling match, gun comes loose, I mean, it's anyone's guess how it all went down. So, yes, the sun is going down. It's, you know, whether you have infrared or thermal imaging and K-9, law enforce is up against it. Absolutely.

BROWN: And you mentioned that these suspects have not been identified yet publicly, we don't know though if authorities know the names and just aren't releasing those names. How do they even go about identifying these men, these two white men and the one African- American male, Joe?

GIACALONE: Well, they have to do an area canvass, they're going to see if there is any cause, or anything nearby, that's the first thing that might give them the clue. But we don't know if there is a dash cam on the officers video, you know, in his car, he doesn't know if he has a body camera on him too. So, those could lead into it. Plus, it's such a small town, you know, it's near a Walgreens, near other places that might have surveillance video, that might have, you know, captured some of this on tape and might have these guys on video and law enforcement is going to hold some of these stuff back because, you know, they want to be able to maybe execute warrants and they don't want people helping them. So, if they are local people, they don't want people holding them up and stuff like that too. So there might be a good reason why we don't know who they are yet.

BROWN: And let's talk a little bit more about the landscape you eluded to there, Lenny, because as we just heard from Mike Drews as well, where this happened was in a pretty desolate are, where there are woods and then you know, also there are homes, it's a suburban area, businesses, boats in the area, how does this landscape impact the search? Does it benefit the suspects or police more?

DEPAUL: At this point, I mean, the way the landscape apparently looks and I'm not that familiar with the area but it's rough terrain. You know, it happened early this morning, the people were at work. Kids were in school. There is a lot of unoccupied homes. They certainly could have got into one of these home and bettered themselves down if in fact they were contained in the perimeter. They did have somewhat of a jump start. Did they get to a vehicle? I mean, we don't know who these people are. It's not like an escape case where somebody is identified and we can work them up, you know, A to Z but we're not that fortunate at this point. Law enforcement, as Joe said they may have an idea. People talk. May have cooperators, they may have witnesses, maybe some videos that was shot from a nearby building and whatnot but, you know, like Joe said I hope this gets taken care of and, you know, put this to bed quickly.

[19:10:34] BROWN: Because it could as you point out be harder in some ways, Joe, that the, you know, with the prison break I think about in New York, they know exactly who they were looking for. In this case, it's probably a little more challenging but we do know that there are K-9s helping out with this. Does that say anything to you?

GIACALONE: Well, I mean, they might have left something behind so that they can use a K- 9 because the K-9 needs a scent. But also we know that they removed stuff from the officers. So, you know, they might have done through or even touch DNA process where, you know, the swabbings, especial things like holster and tasers, holsters and those kind of things, and maybe we can try to get that uploaded or something. I mean, right now we don't know so hopefully, that they are doing everything that they need to do to find these guys.

BROWN: Because we know some of the belongings on the officer were taken so perhaps that is helping and providing clues to authorities. Okay, thank you so much. Joe Giacalone and Lenny DePaul, we appreciate it.

And OUTFRONT next, the latest on the recent string of deadly officer involved shootings across the country. We have a special report.

Plus, Donald Trump and Jeb Bush locked in an ongoing war of words. Should Trump redirect his fire?

And Trump's plan to lower taxes on the middle class and raise them on the rich, it sounds popular but is it also politically impossible? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:15:00] BROWN: Breaking news, take a look, you're looking at live picture right now of a rural area, about one hour north of Chicago, just south of the Wisconsin border, this is the scene of a shooting where Police Lieutenant Joe Gliniewicz was killed earlier today. Local state and federal officers are searching for three men believed to be responsible for that officer's death. Helicopters, K-9 units, and foot patrols are scouring this area, north of Chicago in a no-fly zone is in effect. Officials say, Lieutenant Gliniewicz was pursuing the suspects this morning, but when backup arrived they found Gliniewicz with a fatal gunshot wound and stripped of his gun and pepper spray. Gliniewicz is the second officer killed in the line of duty in less than a week. We want to warn you, some of the video you're about to see is graphic.

Ed Lavandera is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It seems like making sense of life on the streets of America is harder than ever to unravel. The headlines the last few days are dizzying. A manhunt for the killers of a veteran officer in Illinois.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The chopper is right overhead.

LAVANDERA: A Houston sheriff's deputy ambushed and gunned down at a gas station.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops lives matter, too.

LAVANDERA: A San Antonio man with his hands up gunned down by officers, and empty police chants in Minnesota. Houston's Harris County sheriff still mourning the loss of one of his deputies where the debate is taking a toll.

SHERIFF RON HICKMAN, HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS: Certainly those kinds of extreme rhetoric can lead to unintended consequences.

LAVANDERA: The theory over some of these incidents rages polarized opinions, fueling the anger, even a video doesn't tell the whole story behind this shooting. In San Antonio, this video shows Bexar County sheriff's deputies responding to a domestic disturbance call. They say Gilbert Flores was armed with a knife and had just injured two people inside the house. Flores has his hands up, officers shoot. A local TV station first aired the video and the sheriff's department says doing so puts its officers' lives in danger. The department encourage people to call and complain tweeting out the station's phone number.

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It can't be us against them. It has to be police and community working together.

LAVANDERA: Cedric Alexander has spent almost 40 years working in law enforcement. He says, no matter how angry some communities might be with police officers, they don't want to live in a lawless neighborhood without cops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a very tough time to be a police officer at this moment. However, these men and women thereafter doing this job, they are not going to stop doing it.

LAVANDERA: Since the death of Houston Sheriff's Deputy Darren Goforth Friday night, Brien McCullar has helped organize a vigil around pump number eight, the spot where Goforth was killed. He's seen the outpouring of grief but he says, he's also seen something else.

BRIEN MCCULLAR, MEMORIAL VOLUNTEER: It's a great feeling to see what you see here and everywhere you look, you see people talking to law enforcement, giving them hugs and mainly this is a start to something different, maybe.

LAVANDERA: Maybe. These days feeling optimistic isn't easy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAVANDERA: There are many people who come here to the memorial that is emerged at this gas station in Northwest Houston is one of the reasons why they come here trying to make sense of all this and you hear that with people hoping that this time passes, and that all sides can find some common ground, but that seems to be very off in the future -- Pamela.

BROWN: Seems like the divide is only growing, if anything. Thank you so much. Ed Lavandera. And OUTFRONT tonight, former NYPD Officer and private

investigator Bill Stanton and Van Jones, a former advisor to President Obama. Thanks for coming on.

Bill, I'm going to start with you. Because we heard there in the piece saying, you know, it can't be us against them, but it seems like that's the way it is and the situation is only getting worse. Who is to blame here?

BILL STANTON, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Well, I think there are a small minority pun not intended groups of folks that are painting cops really bad. They are saying if you're blue, you're guilty and that is a certain form of prejudice in and of itself. Cops are there to do their job overwhelmingly. They are good people doing God's work and now they're going out with a target on their back. This shouldn't have to happen.

BROWN: So, you don't think cops are to blame at all?

STANTON: Not at all.

BROWN: Van?

VAN JONES, FORMER SPECIAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, first of all, the first thing we have to do is say how sorry we are to the families. Right now you have people who are watching this, someone has died. Whether you're talking about the man who was shot with his hands up or the officers. And so, I think the grief has to be first, let's find the people who are responsible, but let's not blame Americans who are using their First Amendment Rights to petition their government for redress and blame them for murders. I cannot believe we're in a country now where we're going to blame Black Lives Matter for Bonnie and Clyde? I mean, we have people targeting police officers for years and not you, sir, but other people have been indicating now that because Americans are saying they want better policing, that they are now -- that movement is now responsible for these despicable murders. We've had people murdering cops for decades. It's wrong but please don't blame an innocent political movement for these kinds of despicable acts.

[19:20:22] BROWN: But Van, so you know, you have the protesters who are largely peaceful, exercising their First Amendment Rights but then, let's listen to this march in Minnesota over the weekend, this was a march to raise awareness for victims killed by police. Let's take a listen to what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(Protesters): Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Van, how is that productive?

JONES: Well, it's not productive. And I think everybody who have seen that video has been appalled and they should be appalled. And I think that the people who called demonstrations across the country have to take responsibility even if you have some people in the back who are doing and saying despicable things, you have to come forward and say that's not representative of the whole movement. At the same time, those kinds of chance that were not aired publicly before these shootings cannot be blamed. I don't care what somebody says at a rally or protest. Nobody has the right to pick up a gun and shoot anybody else, let alone a police officer. I'm from a law enforcement family. If you do that, you are wrong and you cannot blame, I heard or chant someplace and therefore, I'm a murderer. And so, I think we have to separate these two issues out.

STANTON: Well, Van, we're in rare agreement on this one but this is where I do disagree. When you have these fractions, these small groups, in sighting, you know, cops are bad and we've seen what people, that guy from Baltimore went to New York and executed those two police officers, where we're seeing people write notes, you know, you want a race war, you're going to get one. There is incitement and there is a culture out there where cops are now open game, and we have to somehow mitigate that and trust our police officers.

BROWN: You know, I cover law enforcement on my beat. I have talked to officers, Van, who say I feel like I have a bull's eye on my back. I'm more nervous about my job. I work in an anti-police culture. Do you think that officers have a right to feel this way?

JONES: You know, I understand those sentiments. At the same time, what is actually driving the concern and the outrage are not the words of protesters, it's the videos of police officers who continue to do things that shock the conscience of the country. If I were a police officer, and I were blessed to have that role, I would be saying listen, let's make sure that our police departments are run better. Everybody knows those officers on the force who continually go across the line, the police unfortunately have not been empowered to go after their own and to be whistle-blowers. I don't think that it's the words of the protesters. It's the deeds of a small number of police officers who have been caught on camera again and again and by the way, none of these officers are in prison. You've watched now for a year and a half, officer after officer, video after video, not one officer is in prison --

STANTON: Officer Wilson was guilty, Van in Ferguson?

JONES: No, I'm not talking about Officer Wilson.

STANTON: Okay. Because the hands up movement was based on total lies but yet politicians, celebrities, sports stars were all doing hands up, all based on lies, even after they knew that it was a lie.

BROWN: But there have been --

JONES: You have hands up today. You have hands upright now today.

BROWN: But Bill, there have been -- that Van talks about, that law enforcement types even looked at and say -- STANTON: Those aren't cops, those are criminals.

BROWN: North Charleston. Shot him in the back.

STANTON: Yes. And guess what, that is a murder, he will be tried and he'll be locked up as a criminal as he should be. But when you take the number of the millions of police interactions that go on every day from crossing an old lady across the street to wrestling with a man with a gun, the overwhelmingly small that end in shootings even smaller amounts are where a cop wrongfully takes a life.

BROWN: There are few bad apples everywhere. Van Jones, Bill Stanton, thank you very for that interesting discussion. We appreciate it.

And OUTFRONT next, Donald Trump and Jeb Bush on the attack against each other. Is this a fight Bush can win?

Also, Trump is looking to buck one of the corner stones of the Republican Party. Can he reverse decades of GOP promises and still be the nominee? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:28:24] BROWN: Tonight, Donald Trump and Jeb Bush both on the attack going round after round against each other today. The latest, a video posted on Trump's website proclaiming no more Clintons or Bushes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We recognize the commitment of someone who has devoted her life to public service. I want to say thank you to both Secretary Clinton and to President Clinton.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does that make Hillary Clinton to the Bush family?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My sister-in-law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Sara Murray is OUTFRONT tonight with more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA MURRAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Floundering in the polls, Jeb Bush firing off his harshest attack so far. Using Donald Trump's own words against him in this YouTube video.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My views are a little bit different than if I lived in Iowa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Partial birth abortion.

TRUMP: I'm very pro-choice.

MURRAY: In an interview tonight with CNN, Trump dismissing that attack.

TRUMP: One other thing that I'll say because he mentions the fact that I was at one point a democrat. Well, in New York City, everybody was a democrat, whoever wins the democrat primary is automatically, that's, you know, there was almost no election because the Republicans hardly exist in New York City.

MURRAY: But Bush isn't limiting his attacks to the web, he's also taking it to the campaign trail.

BUSH: If you look at his record of what he believes, he supports Democrats. This is not a guy who is a conservative. And using his own words is not a mischaracterization. They came out of his own mouth.

MURRAY: So much for the low-energy candidate.

TRUMP: Jeb Bush is a low-energy person. For him to get things done is hard. He's very low energy.

MURRAY: Bush trying to show he has a sharp edge. Retaliating against Trump for an onslaught of attacks via Instagram. The latest, showing Bush complimenting democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton.

BUSH: We recognize the commitment of someone who has devoted her life to public service. I want to say thank you to both Secretary Clinton and to President Clinton.

MURRAY: Trump also hitting his opponent on Twitter today calling the latest shot from Bush yet another weak hit by a candidate with a failing campaign. Will Jeb sink as low in the polls as others who have gone after me? The escalating public battle between Trump and Bush as Dr. Ben Carson quietly surges.

The retired neurosurgeon suddenly tied with Trump in Iowa, rallying the state's evangelical voters.

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have to stop listening to the people who tell us that we cannot talk about God. We cannot talk about our faith.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MURRAY: Now, this war of words between Bush and Trump has mainly been playing out on Instagram, Twitter, mostly social media. The big question I think is whether anyone, especially Jeb Bush puts actually money behind these ads. As of right now, I'm hearing from his super PAC that is not in the plans, no attack ads against Donald Trump, but they say they're still open to any possibility -- Pam.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hmm, we'll have to see what happens. Thank you so much, Sara Murray. And OUTFRONT tonight, Rick Wilson, a Republican strategist who

worked for George H.W. Bush, and Katrina Pierson, spokeswoman for the Tea Party leadership.

Katrina, I'm going to start with you.

So, Bush says not only is Donald Trump not a conservative, he says he's not even a Republican. In your view has Bush found the attack that can take down Trump?

KATRINA PIERSON, SPOKESWOMAN, TEA PARTY LEADERSHIP FUND: I don't and this is why. Simply because we've been hearing a lot the last few cycles about who is or isn't a Republican who is qualified to run as president and the facts remain.

All we have to do is look at the history, Mitt Romney was pro- choice. Governor Rick Perry endorsed John Edwards. John Boehner golfs with Obama. Everybody has these things to toss, but at the end of the day, the voters are going to decide and the last two accomplishment candidates failed miserably.

BROWN: So, Rick, does Katrina have a point? Is this a fight that Bush can't win?

RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Listen, the problem with the fight with bush right now is that Donald Trump supporters are post- rational. They don't care. Donald Trump could go out tomorrow and eat a live baby on television and think it's the greatest thing in America. This is a guy who supporters are locked into him.

What Jeb Bush is doing correctly is finally going after reminding the 75 percent of Republicans who aren't in Donald Trump's camp that this guy is not a conservative, has never been a conservative. It's not one or two little things in the past. He's been pro-abortion. He's been pro-gun control. He's been pro-taxes.

He called Hillary Clinton a great secretary of state. This is a man who supported Hillary Clinton financially, not just 25 years ago but four years ago. This is a guy, or six years ago, whatever it is.

This is a guy who is consistently, you know, tells his followers what they want to hear in one or two issues, and they ignore everything else. So, what Jeb has to do here is keep addressing --

PIERSON: Jeb Bush did the same thing. He praised Hillary Clinton, even gave her an award.

WILSON: Yes, but here is the thing, Jeb Bush didn't give Hillary Clinton a check. Jeb Bush has never been pro-choice. Jeb Bush has never been pro-gun control. Jeb Bush has never been pro-taxes.

He's a long record as a conservative governor in the state of Florida. This is not the same thing. This is not a guy -- and, by the way, Trump's excuse that he's a Democrat because he live in New York, guess what? I helped elect a Republican mayor of New York City. We have 5-1 Democratic registration, somehow Rudy still won by being a guy who was tough on crime and by being a guy who talked about quality of life.

This is not an excuse for Donald Trump just because he lives in New York City to say, oh, I get a free pass to support Hillary Clinton and Harry Reid and a whole host of other people and the business case excuse for Donald Trump is mighty thin.

BROWN: OK --

PIERSON: He gives a response but you just don't like it. This is another thing most of the accomplishment establishment is not getting. We have had two times, the American public has Republicans control of Congress --

(CROSSTALK)

WILSON: Katrina, did Barack Obama spend more money --

PIERSON: They funded Obamacare and amnesty and make promises --

(CROSSTALK)

WILSON: Katrina, Barack Obama out spent McCain and Romney, I know you like to believe it's a Republican establishment conspiracy to elect Obama, but that's the crazy talk that's prevalent on your side of the fence right now.

PIERSON: No, I believe if we had a consecutive --

(CROSSTALK)

WILSON: We're in a situation right now, Katrina, where Donald Trump is not a conservative, he's scamming conservatives right now on one or two issues pretending to be one. He's not a conservative. He's talking about tax increases, a wild expansion the size and scope of the federal government.

This is a guy who's playing people on your side of this equation right now like chumps. You guys are being played like fools by this con man.

(CROSSTALK)

PIERSON: So is Medicare Part D a big government program?

[19:35:00] Is that Republican? Is cromnibus, omnibus more federal funding --

WILSON: Katrina --

PIERSON: Is that Republican? Because your Republican establishment has delivered just that --

WILSON: Katrina, there is nothing --

(CROSSTALK) BROWN: Here is what we do know, Rick and Katrina, that the anti-

establishment candidates are topping the polls right now. Yet, despite this, Katrina, Trump continues to go after Jeb Bush even though his ratings are sinking, although Ben Carson is the only other person, only other candidate in a dead heat with Trump in Iowa.

Is Trump missing the target here? Shouldn't he be going after Carson and not Bush?

PIERSON: Now, I think Mr. Trump simply does one thing. If you attack him, he attacks you and that's how it's been so far.

BROWN: Rick?

Hold on a second, wait, wait, wait, that is not actually true. Caroline Kennedy, he attacked Caroline Kennedy. Huma Abedin --

PIERSON: I'm talking about candidates in the race.

BROWN: OK, but you've got to make that clear. He's went after a lot of people and Jeb Bush he went after very early on --

(CROSSTALK)

WILSON: Meets his attention that day --

BROWN: Go ahead, Rick.

WILSON: The guy is a bully. He's going to yell at whoever meets on his radar screen that day. The fact of the matter is, I have no brief to depend Huma, for God's sakes, but the fact of the matter he went after somebody tht wasn't on his immediate radar screen as a candidate, wasn't somebody he's running against.

You know, the fact of the matter is, if you want to go after staff, Donald Trump is going to have a whole separate ride to have real soon now.

BROWN: All right. Katrina Pierson, Rick Wilson, thanks for the lively discussion. Appreciate it.

PIERSON: Thank you.

BROWN: And be sure -- do not miss Don Lemon's interview with Donald Trump at 10:00 p.m. Eastern on "CNN TONIGHT".

And OUTFRONT next, Donald Trump wants to raise taxes on some corporations and the rich. It's an about-face for a party that has long promised no new taxes. So, can Trump make the case to Republican voters? That is a big question.

And across the country, the murder rate is soaring in many big cities. Are police becoming less aggressive in a post-Ferguson America?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [19:40:53] BROWN: Tonight, Republican front runner Donald Trump

threatening a very non-Republican idea -- raising taxes on some wealthy Americans. Trump's campaign says he'll release his complete plan in the next few weeks but he's already rattling the nerves of some party loyalists.

Tom Foreman is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To hear Trump tell it, his expertise is clear.

TRUMP: Who knows taxes more than me? I know the taxes very well.

FOREMAN: But what he plans to do about taxes is far murkier.

TRUMP: Unbelievable.

FOREMAN: The poll-topping candidate has floated a variety of ideas, easing the burden on working families.

TRUMP: I want to lower taxes for the middle class.

FOREMAN: Cutting back on government spending.

TRUMP: There is so much fat in Washington that if somebody got in that knew what they were doing, you don't have to raise taxes.

FOREMAN: And in a move that has alarmed some staunch Republicans, Trump is echoing a Democratic line -- make some rich people pay more.

TRUMP: They pick the stock and all of a sudden, they make a lot of money. I want the hedge fund guys to pay more taxes.

FOREMAN: As a result, some pro-business anti tax groups like the Club for Growth are not impressed.

DAVID MCINTOSH, PRESIDENT, CLUB FOR GROWTH: He knows how business works for him to create money and he's happy to tax everybody else's business. That's a bad plan for the whole United States.

FOREMAN: Trump says he can bring U.S. companies back from overseas by lowering their corporate taxes, but some of these groups are convinced heavier taxes on investors and punishing companies for shipping jobs overseas in the first place will kill incentives for growth, wiping out jobs and productivity.

Ever since Ronald Reagan, Republicans loved the idea of lowering taxes.

GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: Read my lips: no new taxes.

FOREMAN: But many have found keeping those promises can be tough and it may require more than Trump offer so far.

TRUMP: People are going to be very happy.

CURTIS DUBAY, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: There are winners and losers in tax reform and those who lose scream really loud.

FOREMAN: In other words, it is the same complaint raised about Trump's plan for immigration reform.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: What he is saying is popular, but hidden in all the details he glosses over may be the devil that makes his economic plans impractical and politically impossible -- Pamela.

BROWN: Tom Foreman, thank you so much.

And now, let's bring in Ben Ferguson. He's a CNN political commentator.

Hi, Ben. Great to have you on.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good evening.

BROWN: So, you just heard from Tom, that Trump is proposing to raise taxes on some wealthy Americans. What is he risking here? It seems like that would alienate a lot of traditional Republicans.

FERGUSON: He's risking a lot but what he thinks he's going to gain from others that may not look at him beforehand. There's a lot of people afraid of rich people. He's saying, I'm so rich I know how the blame is played and I'm going to go after the rich people like me that aren't paying their fair share. It's a great mantra. It's also the same idea, he says, I'm going to put tariffs on companies that kept jobs overseas, open factories overseas.

It sounds great, but when you're in a global economy, that would destroy American businesses. You have to be able to compete around the world and there are a lot of companies that go overseas to produce their goods.

And so, Donald Trump bought a lot of those goods. So, I don't think that has a shot of passing through Congress, anyway.

BROWN: Let's look at the recent poll numbers of likely Iowa caucus-goers found that 41 percent of them felt like Trump's views were moderate, 35 percent said conservative. So, this looks like the majority of Republicans are fully aware Trump is a moderate. They like him anyway.

So, does it even matter if he wants to raise taxes?

FERGUSON: I think it will when he gets closer to election day, and when you have people actually look and analyze this, I think he's going to get hit by a lot of other conservatives on this issue saying you do realize this is someone that's going against a complete opposite idea that Ronald Reagan tried to implement and you loved it so pay attention to the details. And there's also going to be people that are going to say, you can say you're going to do this, but the reality is it's not going to happen.

[19:45:02] So, in many ways, it's an empty promise, and I think there is -- you're also going to see him be hit on stage in the next debate here on CNN on this exact issue by other candidates and I would do it if I was them. If I was advising them, I would tell them to bring these things up because it's going to be an important part of this debate, and I think he's vulnerable.

BROWN: And our Don Lemon did an interview with him today. He said Democrat wills vote for me.

Do you think there is a strategy to pull more Democrats in?

FERGUSON: Yes, I think he understands if he wants to win this, he has to pull from another group of people. This may be that strategy to do it to bring in moderates or Democrats to his side.

BROWN: OK. Thank you so much, Ben Ferguson. Appreciate it.

By the way, the full interview with Donald Trump will be on Don Lemon's show at 10:00 Eastern Time.

And OUTFRONT next, the murder rate up double digits in some of the biggest cities in the country. What's behind this recent spike in homicides?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tonight, murder rates spiking across the country. And after years of decline, cities like Dallas and Milwaukee have seen double-digit increases in the number of murders.

So, what is causing this rise?

[19:50:01] Our Martin Savidge is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): I'm hitching a ride with the NOPD, looking for trouble.

(on camera): What do you think it is in your precinct, the worst crime area now?

(voice-over): In New Orleans, the blood-spattered bad old days are making a comeback. Here, two men are gunned down, murdered.

(on camera): So, we know that murder has gone up this year. Why?

COMMANDER CHRIS GOODLEY, NEW ORLEANS POLICE DEPARTMENT: If I had the answer, I would probably be a wealthy man. SAVIDGE (voice-over): While violent crime overall has dipped, in

the last year, homicides in the Big Easy have jumped 22 percent from historic lows. But it's not just New Orleans. In Atlanta, murders are up 12 percent over last year. Chicago is up 20 percent. Dallas, up 23 percent.

In the nation's capital, homicides are up 43 percent.

Goodley, an 18-year police veteran, blames it on too many kids with too many guns with too little hope.

GOODLEY: You know, youth that just don't know how to handle aggression.

SAVIDGE: But could something else be to blame?

Some suggest police have become less aggressive and less visible in high-crime areas in the aftermath of public outrage following the deaths of Michael Brown and Freddie Gray, noting cities near or where those incidents happened have seen a huge jump in homicide rates from last year. Ferguson's neighbor, St. Louis, is seeing homicides up nearly 58 percent. And Baltimore saw murders there jump up 56 percent over last year.

Speaking in disguise to Brooke Baldwin, this Baltimore officer seems to admit cops have backed off, implying the public is getting what it asked for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the public really, really sees that they asked for a softer, less aggressive police department. And we've given them that. And now, they're realizing that their way of thinking does not work.

SAVIDGE (on camera): You don't buy this theory that cops are backing off because of a public backlash?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, I don't.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Cedric Alexander is a 38-year law enforcement veteran, and a member of President Obama's task force on 21st century policing.

ALEXANDERA: In terms of a work slowdown, in terms of not taking calls or only responding to 911 calls, that is not what's happening across this country.

SAVIDGE: He points to other big cities such as Phoenix and Los Angeles where homicide rates are actually slightly down from a year ago.

HAROLD POLLACK, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO CRIME LAB: I don't think anyone really has a handle on it.

SAVIDGE: Those who research crime say homicide rates can be a lot like the stock market. There can be short-term wild swings and you don't always know why. POLLACK: I think there are many stories that people tell that

are really not backed up by evidence right now.

SAVIDGE: Experts say we are still a lot safer than we were 15 to 20 years ago. As for the summer spike in homicides, it's a real murder mystery.

Martin Savidge, CNN, New Orleans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And Philip Banks is a former NYPD chief of department. He joins us now.

Philip, you just left your department not long ago, just several months ago. What do you think accounts for this? In New York City, where you worked, the murder rate has increased 9 percent.

PHILIP BANKS, FORMER NYPD CHIEF OF DEPARTMENT: Yes. Well, nationwide -- I'm not sure there's one answer that fits all. I don't think that the reasoning for the increase in Baltimore -- I mean, clearly, Baltimore, there's a problem with the amount of residents that they have in that particular city with their murder rates. There are issues there that need to be fixed. In New York, one murder is too much.

But it could just be an anomaly. It certainly requires much more research analysis to determine whether or not, we are going back to those particular days. I certainly don't believe that we are. I haven't been introduced to anything. So, I would suggest in New York City, this could just been a anomaly. It needs to be further researched. But I still think we're in pretty good shape.

BROWN: But one of the theories is that police officers are holding themselves back. I've spoken to cops because I cover law enforcement on my beat, they tell me that we're fearful if we do something, a split-second decision is going to backfire and end up, you know, going viral on the Internet.

How much of a role do you think that is playing, this culture right now between cops and their communities?

BANKS: Well, I certainly would not think or believe or like to believe that police officers are holding back. The police officers that I've been blessed to work with over the years, I think it's a special breed. And I think they give their all.

But I will say that it's human nature that if you feel as though that you can possibly make a mistake and be treated like it was an intentional mistake, human nature could take over and you could be a little hesitant in how you apply your job.

[19:55:05] So, could that be happening? There's certainly a possibility. But I'm also certainly not linking that to this movement that's going on in our country that wants criminal justice reform. I don't know that we can blame someone in this particular country who wants to create some type of a reform to link them to, they're a part of the problem -- I certainly reject that. I don't believe that you can put that on their doorsteps. I think the message has been manipulated. I certainly think we need to look further into that.

BROWN: The question now, how do you bring this rate down?

Thank you so much. We appreciate it.

And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Thanks for joining us.

"AC360" starts now.