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Erin Burnett Outfront
White House with Contradicting Views on Coronavirus; Twenty-one People Contracted from Grand Princess; Elderly People at Nursing Homes are Mostly Vulnerable; Mike Pence Contradicts President Trump On Coronavirus Test Access; Doctors Answers Outfront Viewers Questions On Coronavirus; Mick Mulvaney Out As Acting Chief of Staff; President Trump Remove Mick Mulvaney As Acting Chief of Staff; Two Coronavirus Patients Die In Florida AS U.S. Death Toll Rises To 17 And Infections Reach 329; Apple Co-founder Couldn't Get Coronavirus Test After Flu; Combating Coronavirus One Elbow At A Time. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired March 06, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Is that what you want the social instruction to be? The nay dear of my humanity? We should not reflect what we are against. The countries that kill are the countries that we say we are against. Think about it.
All right. That leaves us with the argument for tonight. It is now time for CNN Tonight with the upgrade Erin Burnett OUTFRONT bonus edition starts right now.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: A late edition of OUTFRONT, next.
Twenty-one people on a cruise ship off the San Francisco test positive for coronavirus. So, what happens now to the more than 3,400 people stuck on board. Plus, a third Washingtonian -- a Washington State elderly care facility now has an infected patient. A third facility.
So how bad is the outbreak in the Seattle area and Mick Mulvaney is out. Trump announcing a new and very loyal chief of staff.
Let's go OUTFRONT. And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
Tonight, a late edition of OUTFRONT, the coronavirus crisis. We're going to take an in-depth look at what's going on and how the Trump administration is handling its response.
And Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to be joining us for the entire hour. Tonight, you know, Sanjay, you know, we've been dealing with 21 new cases on a cruise ship off the coast of San Francisco the Grand Princess. And almost all the cases 19 of the 21 are crew members which raises serious questions about how many people they interacted with.
All in, though, only 46 people out of 3,400 people on board have been tested. So, the number of positives obviously could go up. And remember, on the last cruise ship the coronavirus the Diamond
Princess at one time it was the second biggest center of coronavirus outside China. So that went from what, one or two cases to eventually ballooning to more than 600 on that cruise ship.
And what is truly shocking about the developments on the Grand Princess is that the passengers crew and captain were not told by the government about the positive results on board. They found out from watching Vice President Mike Pence on live national television. Here's the captain of the Grand Princess.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vice President Mike Pence announced that 21 people have tested positive for COVID-19. You may have heard this on the news by the media already. And we apologize, but we were not given advanced notice of this announcement by the U.S. federal government.
(END VOICE CLIP)
BURNETT: So, since the vice president announced there was coronavirus on board the ship to the entire nation before telling the ship, did he also announce the plan for testing, quarantining and, you know, these important things which took 28 days for the last cruise ship in this position? No.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're working literally hour by hour with the Department of Defense.
IUNIDENTIFIED MALE: t is truly evolving right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Hour by hour. Truly evolving. We'll brief you when you know is the bottom line. In order words, they don't seem to know yet. The only person who has made his view on what to do the 3,400 people on board the Grand Princess is President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If it were up to me, I would be inclined to say leave everybody on the ship for a period of time and you use the ship as your base. I like the numbers being where they are. I don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship. That wasn't our fault.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Leave people on the ship because when they come on land, they will count in his mind in the U.S. count. You know, on his tally which he doesn't want. That count though has been growing throughout the day. Twelve hours ago, 230 cases in 20 states. Now 304 in 28.
Lucy Kafanov is out front in San Francisco. So, Lucy, what are you hearing tonight about the passengers on that cruise ship where you are in San Francisco?
LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Erin, there is so much shock so much confusion on board the Grand Princess. The passengers were hoping today's announcement would mean the end of their ordeal. Instead, it looks like the start of a new one.
The big question now what will be the fate of the 3,400 people on board that ship. The vice president says it's going to be taken to a non-commercial port. Unclear what that means. Unclear when that will happen or where this well located.
We know that the 1,100 or so members of the crew will not be allowed to disembark. They'll have to stay in quarantine on that ship. Every single other person will get tested. The crew will get all tested as well. And it seems that the passengers may get taken to military bases.
But again, it looks that the administration is working on these plans as we speak. We simply don't know where they will be taken to. People will be quarantined as needed. That's what the vice president said.
A terrifying prospect for a lot of these passengers. This is a vulnerable population of people. A lot them in their 60s, 70s, and 80s. We've been in touch with several folks on board that ship. They said that they've been confined to their rooms, glued to the news. That's what they seem to be getting most of their information.
They've been given activity kits. One passenger sent us a photo of a button bedazzling bag kit that she got. That's how she could pass her time while she's trying to figure out if she's going to be quarantined for 14 days or not.
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Another passenger posting on Facebook earlier and I quote, "put all of us at the Trump properties since he doesn't believe there's any serious danger." A bit of levity perhaps amidst a lot of confusion. Erin?
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much. And I want to go out for now to two Americans quarantined on Grand Princess, Kailee Higgins Ott and her mother Leeann Higgins. And both of you, thank you. You know, see you smiling.
And look, kudos to you for being able to do that. You know, this has been a really difficult day. I can only imagine. I mean, Kailee, how did you and your mom find out about the cases of coronavirus on the ship?
KAILEE HIGGINS OTT, AMERICAN QUARANTINED ON GRAND PRINCESS CRUISE SHIP: Yes. So, the person in the balcony next to us told us to watch the news. So, we turn on the TV and watch the vice president tell us. The captain didn't say anything. So, until 30 minutes later. And it was -- I was so shocked I didn't -- I couldn't believe it.
BURNETT: I mean, Leeann, what went through your mind when you heard the news? I mean, you know, I don't want to put feelings on the captain. He seems to me to be a little, I want to make it clear, they didn't tell him. He wasn't holding anything back from you. He seemed a little perturb by that. What went through your mind when you found out?
LEEANN HIGGINS, AMERICAN QUARANTINED ON GRAND PRINCESS CRUISE SHIP: I just -- I felt so bad for everyone on the ship including the staff. It came as a big shock. We -- we really didn't think that we would have been affected. Even when we had first found out the news on Wednesday about the death and from the previous ship. We still were pretty optimistic and it was pretty business as usual on the ship. So, it's been a bit to get used to.
BURNETT: So, when you hear a non-commercial port and you hear them say we're working on it, which of course they are, but they obviously have not come up with a formal plan. Have you gotten any update, any information at all from anybody about what's next?
OTT: You (INAUDIBLE) than the captain or anyone on the ship has told us.
HIGGINS: Yes.
BURNETT: So.
OTT: We don't know.
BURNETT: Go ahead.
OTT: Yes. We're kind of blindsided here.
BURNETT: What are you most worried about, Kailee?
OTT: For me I'm most worried about missing more school. And of course, I'm worried about everyone on board. It's such a hard thing with all the older folks on board and all the crew members. It's so scary. It's just I think I'm healthy enough to be OK. But just everyone else it's terrible.
BURNETT: I mean, Leeann, we can only hope they come up with a plan here where you, you know, it's a 14-day process. Obviously, for the other ship it was not handled well. And hopefully everyone has learned from that. Right?
But, you know, I talked to a passenger the other day and she's fine now. But I mean, it was a 28-day saga. And as I say, I think nobody expects anything -- I mean, that would be just no one expects anything like that to happen, happen to you all. But what is your biggest fear?
HIGGINS: I think the biggest fear is that even if there is additional quarantine, that like when we go back into the regular population, like to our jobs, to Kailee's school, what kind of additional measures might be taken? And will that prolong our like, getting back into our normal lives.
BURNETT: Right. I mean, sort of the stigma or how people would treat you, is what you're saying.
HIGGINS: Yes.
OTT: Yes.
HIGGINS: Yes.
BURNETT: All right. Well, thank you both very much. You know, good luck to you and, you know, we're rooting for you.
HIGGINS: Thank you.
BURNETT: All right. And I want to, you know, Sanjay, as you hear their story. I mean, this is -- this is unprecedented situation. I mean, there's just -- they have no idea. No one is telling them anything.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, you would have thought we would have learned from what happened on the Diamond Princess. Quarantining people on a ship is a bad idea. I think everyone is sort of realizing that cruise ships --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: Well, not the president. He says if he had it his way, he would keep them on board because he doesn't want the count to go up.
GUPTA: It's a terrible idea. I mean, the problem is that even outside of a coronavirus outbreak this virus spread on ships. You know, the norovirus people forget about the norovirus now because we've been talking about coronavirus so much.
Twenty percent of the people on that Diamond cruise ship, that Diamond Princess cruise ship they got infected. And there are people who died. You know? So, it's -- it's very hard. And keep in mind you have to have a crew.
BURNETT: Yes.
GUPTA: And the crew is then walking around the ship. They're trying to take care of people. They're in many ways, you know they are putting themselves at risk knowingly in order to service the passengers.
They're oftentimes, you know, they're in similar quarters. They're close by to each other. So, eating together. All of that. So, it's like they kind of know they're going to get infected. Nineteen of the 21 that as you know are --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: Yes. And when you know, we've -- anyone who has seen a cruise ship show or if you on the Diamond Princess -- the Princess web site for crew.
GUPTA: Yes.
BURNETT: They right upfront say it. You're going to be sharing quarters with crew.
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GUPTA: Right.
BURNETT: I mean, the crew, you know, the passengers have the space on ship. The crew are in tight quarters. They are together. They are sharing a lot of things.
GUPTA: It's impossible really to keep them safe. So, I mean, I hope that they are listening, I hope that there's lessons that have been taken from the Diamond. Because the folks that are on this cruise ship now, I really hope that they don't quarantine them on the cruise ship. We're dealing with unprecedented situations overall, no question. But we do have a case in lesson from the Diamond that we should apply here.
BURNETT: So, only 46 of the 3,400 people on the ship were tested. We don't know how they got to that number. Again, we do know that 21 of them were positive. That's about half.
GUPTA: Right.
BURNETT: And 19 of the 21 were crew.
GUPTA: Yes.
BURNETT: So, they said they are going to test everybody. But how do you determine -- I mean, look, if you're looking at 14-day quarantine period from exposure that's a rolling period.
GUPTA: Yes, that's right. And so each time someone test positive during that quarantine period --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: Does it restart.
GUPTA: It resets the clock. Which has got to be mind-numbing for the people that are in that quarantine. I don't know. You know, I think the people that were tested probably were people that were suspicious for some reason either because of symptoms or whatnot.
The crew members that may have been on the previous ship. There was a gentleman who had been on the previous voyage who subsequently died as you know.
BURNETT: Yes.
GUPTA: That's what started all this. Ultimately, everyone has got to be tested. We're talking a lot about testing, you know, this past week. The fact that we can't get 3,500 people tested on the cruise ship out there in an area where we know they are at particularly high risk; I think is sort of speaks to the larger issue of testing for the country over all. I mean, they need to be tested. Whether they are going to be tested on
the boat or when they get on land. I don't know. But I have to say, I mean, the idea again -- and I know there's a lot of smart people who I'm sure are giving advice. But the idea of quarantining them in a place that is essentially going to act as a petri dish is a real problem.
BURNETT: Right.
GUPTA: And potentially putting people like Kailee and her mom at risk of being exposed to the virus.
BURNETT: Right. I mean, because they don't -- they have to eat the food.
GUPTA: They have to eat the food.
BURNETT: Right. Ultimately, you know, you have to eat food.
GUPTA: That's right.
BURNETT: All right. So next breaking news. Three senior care centers in Washington State now reporting coronavirus cases. The latest on the Seattle area outbreak as we have some headlines on that this hour.
Plus, Trump and Vice President Pence are extremely on different pages when it comes to testing. In fact, one says the opposite of the other. Who is telling the truth?
And the Friday night dump. The president has gotten rid of chief of staff and he's got a new one. One of his most vocal defenders.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Breaking news. There are three senior care centers in state of Washington to be hit with the coronavirus. A resident of the nursing and rehabilitation center in Issaquah just east of Seattle tested positive and has been taken to the hospital.
Just hours earlier, the Ida Culver House in Seattle announced it had a presumptive positive case with a resident who is now being quarantined off site. And this coming after the outbreak at the Kirkland Life Care nursing home where at least nine people have died from the virus.
Sanjay is with me, along with Dr. Mark Jarrett who is the chief quality officer for Northwell Health where he oversees 23 hospitals, and Dr. Henry Chambers, chief of the Division of Infectious Disease at the San Francisco General Hospital.
So, Sanjay, three nursing homes in one state. In a state that we've been talking a lot about with the number of cases. Al of it is in Seattle. I mean, is that, could that be coincidence?
GUPTA: It could be. But I don't think it is. I mean, you know, one thing is that the first patient that was diagnosed in this country was in this area January 20th. They actually looked at the virus of that patient and the genetic sort of signature of that virus is very similar to the genetic of the virus that's circulating now.
So, I think that frankly, I think that that virus is probably been circulating in that area for six or seven weeks. And if you try and figure out the number of people who have been affected it's probably in the hundreds. Older people are more vulnerable and you know, in these nursing homes is where older people often are.
BURNETT: So, Dr. Jarrett, how likely is it that those additional nursing homes will see more cases and that you're going to get more case. I mean, obviously, we still as of now where we don't have a ton of tests.
MARK JARRETT, CHIEF QUALITY OFFICER, NORTHWELL HEALTH: Right.
BURNETT: But that we're going to keep seeing this jump?
JARRETT: It's most likely we're going to see more spread in those nursing homes. Patients are often eating together. They are very close together. It's the nurses go from room to room. There's been no protection in terms of trying to prevent the spread. So it's very likely we're going to see more cases in those areas.
BURNETT: So, Dr. Chambers, outside of, you know, severe isolation practices which are incredibly difficult to do or to enforce. Is there any way right now to stop the spread of the coronavirus in the U.S.?
HENRY CHAMBERS, MEDICINE PROFESSOR EMERITUS, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SAN FRANCISCO: I think we need more testing to identify how far it has spread within the community and I think there's really no question anymore that this is made its way into the community. There's no other explanation for what is going on in Washington State.
And I was looking on the web site today. I imagine all of us spend too much time on the internet looking up about the coronavirus. Now that by far the largest category of risk factors is no risk factor. So, I think we're going to continue to see community transmission.
And if you think about it, nursing homes are not so much different from a cruise. It's a confined group of individuals, they eat together, they play together, they talk together. So, I think it will be important to identify cases and to isolate those and treat those who need care and be vigilant and expand testing.
BURNETT: So, you know, Sanjay, to the point that he's making about community spread. Earlier today, we had two members of the Trump administration neither of whom happen to be doctors. And I don't say it to be funny. You see who they are when you see them. But they both said the coronavirus is contained. And here they are.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: What I am pleased to report is that the 14 deaths so far that are completely tragic and very sad in this country shows that this is being contained because the president took action.
LARRY KUDLOW, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: We don't actually know what the magnitude of the virus is going to be. Although frankly so far it looks relatively contained.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: We don't know what the magnitude of the virus is. That's true. Because we haven't been testing which is a real problem. I'm sure we're going to talk about. But it's not contained.
I mean, clearly this is spreading. I mean, the numbers have gone up since the president's first press conference where he talked about the 15 patients. Not including the patients who had been repatriated. The numbers have gone significantly up. So many more states affected now. And evidence of community spread. Not just one generation. Not just one group of people to another group but then that group to another group and so forth. So, it's not -- it's not contained.
BURNETT: And you know, you have tonight Long Island. When you look at the 23 hospitals out there. You've got cases there. You -- the last time you and I spoke about this you were talking about just the hospitals in general but particularly in this area. At capacity in the words that we deal with this sort of thing. Right now, you got lot of flu cases and now all of a sudden you are going to have people presenting themselves with a lot of questions.
JARRETT: Well, we have a lot of patients who are already calling up asking can they get tested, number one.
BURNETT: Right.
JARRETT: And number two, we have the issues that we have to figure out how we are going to make room in the hospital for these patients who really need hospitalization who are very ill.
You know, if we go by the incidents in China, perhaps 25 percent of the patients who get hospitalized actually need ICU care. So, this is going to be a real difficult problem which we're trying to plan for. But it's not easy to really move those patients around at this time of year.
BURNETT: So, Dr. Chambers, I want to ask you about the Grand Princess cruise ship. You know, because you're in San Francisco. Right? And it's there off your port. More than 3,400 people on board. We know that 46 people on that ship were tested and 21 were positive. You got an FBI agent in San Francisco we've just found out has the virus?
I mean, you know, do you think your city is ready to treat these cases when you look at the hospital situation and more if this number does start to grow significantly? CHAMBERS: I think it all depends about the numbers. Again, it gets
back to testing to know what we're dealing with in terms of number of cases.
I know there's been a coordinated effort in San Francisco. I spoke with the infection control team at San Francisco General. I've sat in on conferences at UC. My wife works at CPMC. And so, there is an awareness and the need for surge capacity which in the simplest terms is an ability to repurpose resources to take care of people.
But it depends upon how widely this is spread. And until we have a better handle on that, it's going to be hard to answer that question.
BURNETT: Because, Sanjay, right now we don't know -- I mean, you know, there's been this talk of how many people. Just one person in fact.
GUPTA: Right.
BURNETT: That you only need one -- you had said the other night what, two to three --
GUPTA: Two to three.
BURNETT: -- to have an exponential increase.
GUPTA: That's right.
BURNETT: We don't even know because at this point now we don't even know what you're saying, that the biggest factor now is not having a factor. We don't know if people are getting it.
GUPTA: That's right. That's absolutely true.
BURNETT: Excuse me.
GUPTA: And I mean, to Dr. Chambers' point, there is this question about surge capacity.
CHAMBERS: Right.
GUPTA: I mean, this has been modelled. You know, even with a mild to moderate sort of spread. Some, I think it was a million hospitalizations, 200,000 ICU beds and some 65,000 ventilators.
CHAMBERS: Right.
GUPTA: Those are big numbers. I mean, we have 100,000 ICU beds in the country and about that number of ventilators. But as you mentioned, I mean, we're in flu season --
BURNETT: That's in the country.
GUPTA: -- in the country.
CHAMBERS: All country.
GUPTA: We're in flu season, so many of those are already being used.
BURNETT: Wow. And that's not easy to just ramp that up.
GUPTA: No. It's not. And hospitals don't work with that sort of redundancy. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong.
JARRETT: No. Hospitals today work very often on just in time supplies, which is producing a problem especially as the supply chain has gotten strained.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you all, staying with me though. Because next mixed messages. So, on this issue of testing the president says one thing and vice president is now saying the exact opposite. Why? And goodbye Mick Mulvaney. Hello, Mark Meadows. President Trump announcing there's been another change in the White House. He's got a new chief of staff tonight.
[22:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Tonight, Vice President Pence contradicting President Trump on testing for the coronavirus. Here is what the president said earlier today. So, you hear that first. And then about an hour later, what the vice president had to do which was admit that what Trump said was not true.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Anybody that needs a test gets a test. If there's a doctor that wants a test.
PENCE: We trust in matter of weeks the coronavirus test will be broadly available to the public and available to any American that is symptomatic and has a concern about the possibility of having contracted the coronavirus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So, in matter of weeks. Not anybody who wants a test can just go and get a test. Sanjay, this is not a small topic. And it's not a small discrepancy on what is really the most crucial issue. What the president saying is just not true.
GUPTA: Yes. I mean, it's really unfortunate. Because, you know, I'm sure you're getting calls, I'm getting calls all the time from colleagues, you know, who say that they have patients who have symptoms and have concerns. Maybe they were in China but they were in Korea or Italy or somewhere else. They're concerned.
And they hear, you know, the president say that you can get tested no matter what. And we've been hearing some variation of this message for, you know, really the entire week. It's not true yet.
I think it's happening to be fair. And you know, if you listen to the FDA commissioner -- (CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: Ramping.
GUPTA: Yes, you are ramping up 1.1 million test they say. Which by the way, doesn't mean 1.1 million patients because some patients have to get tested twice or even more than that.
BURNETT: Well, just the point you're making about rolling quarantine too.
GUPTA: That's right. Yes.
BURNETT: I mean, you might have to test one person multiple times, I'd imagine. Right?
GUPTA: Early on. If they're not symptomatic it's not that they are not going to have a positive test later on. So, it's -- it's happening. And then these commercial labs like LabCorp and Quest they are starting to ramp up as well. But not yet. And you know, we're late in the game on this. And you know, this isn't like sleep. You can't catch up on this later on. So, it's a concern.
[22:30:05]
BURNETT: And I know you're starting to do testing.
JARRETT: Yes, we do.
BURNETT: But a very limited availability for weeks, right?
JARRETT: First three weeks we will be able to do maybe 75 to 100 manually a day. We are hoping when we automate in about three or four weeks we will be able to do a thousand to several thousand per day, but that's three, four weeks.
BURNETT: Right. And you're talking about 23 hospitals, 75 to 100 a day. People understand, this is not a widely available thing. Dr. Chambers, how widespread do you think testing has to be for the United States even though how big the problem is?
DR. HENRY CHAMBERS M.D., CHIEF DIVISION OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, SFGH: I would like to see it in incorporated on as a viral panel. There are already viral panels that are available for several manufacturers. And if you have a test that's positive for a virus that is on one of those panels you are probably OK to stop. But there are going to be people who will not test positive and that is a group of individuals that you want to be able to test. And it needs to be widely available. It needs to be a standard test, quickly.
BURNETT: To actual, because we don't even know, Sanjay, the extent of how many people have it or how many people are had died from it. Because there's no tests.
GUPTA: That's right.
BURNETT: So people who are dying now from the flu. Who knows?
GUPTA: Yes, I think that's a concern. I mean, you know, there's a -- I think 16, 17,000 people have died from flu this year already and that's you know, it's a number that people are becoming more familiar with throughout this whole coronavirus discussion. But it is quite possible, Erin, that some percentage of those people actually had coronavirus. And died from that instead, they didn't know to look for it. They obviously couldn't test for it.
BURNETT: So this brings us to some viewer questions. Obviously people want to know if they have it. And we are talking about testing. But let's go to a couple. Deborah Ford said, how long does the virus live on surfaces or objects? Which is the big question. Because we hear about measles. It can live for hours, what -- you know, hour and hours in the air. Not so with this. But on a surface, like this table or let's say, a doorknob.
GUPTA: Well, I mean, what I have read and -- actually on the surface like this, it can live for some time. You know, several hours. Even a few days. That's why they recommend regular disinfecting. On card board, packages, you know, things that have more a porous border. It's going to be a lot less. But even on money it can live on bills. Which is why you saw some of those images, Erin, maybe in China of them burning currency. Because they were worried that the money could actually serve as a method of transmission.
BURNETT: I mean, in anyway, Dr. Jarrett, to actually clean it. You hear about a school. Schools in New Yorker, school in Chicago, their closing to clean for day in some cases. Chicago is longer, Is that, I mean can you really --
JARRETT: It's difficult to do.
BURNETT: Get this people peace of mind but not --
JARRETT: I think, you can clean most of the surfaces. Especially where the students are. And by their desk and areas they go to commonly. But to clean a whole building all the time. We deal with this daily at hospitals. It's very difficult. It really takes a trained team to do it. Not just a couple of people coming in, who are trying to do it for the first time. And will be cleaning the surface.
BURNETT: And hospitals, no matter what, you do in general are a place, you know, you don't go if you don't want to get sick. You have to be there. All right. So, here's another question. Elias Mallory Scamon, Dodge Chambers asked this, on Facebook. What should people living in apartment buildings do to prepare in case someone in the building gets it. And you know, Sanjay, was mentioning this has been an issue with SARS a few years ago. But with apartment buildings, you're talking about a lot of things whether it be vents, right or elevator buttons. Which is similar to what we are talking about here. How would you answer that question, Dr. Chambers?
CHAMBERS: Well, first thing I want to know is the patient who has the diagnosis did you have contact with them. I mean, we're worried about surfaces and we certainly want to be clean. But if that was the only means by which this virus was transmitted, we would not be here today. This is the virus that's transmitted in close proximity with other individuals, who had coughed upon. You touch your face maybe. You know, there's the -- we are now on the elbow bumps. So, it's direct contact. So, if I didn't have any of those I wouldn't be too concerned frankly. I think that would be a low risk situation.
More generally though I think what is happening is meetings are cancelled and events are delayed or cancelled and maybe rescheduled is the concept of social distancing. Where you're not really quarantined, but there is some less interaction with other individuals.
BURNETT: All right. All of you, thank you very much. And next, White House staffers found it odd Mick Mulvaney didn't show up for work today. Well, now we know why. He's out. And a disturbing firsthand account of illness from travel from Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak, who actually reached out to Sanjay. He's OUTFRONT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:00]
BURNETT: Breaking now, Mick Mulvaney out is acting White House chief of staff. Replaced by Trump ally Republican Congressman Mark Meadows. Now, Mulvaney has been under siege for some time now. Kaitlan Collins is OUTFRONT. Kaitlan, what was the president's thinking here?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, none of this is a surprise in Washington. It really was a question of when not if Mick Mulvaney was going to be pushed out and Mark Meadows was going to replace him. But what is interesting is the timing. Because the president had been talking about getting rid of Mick Mulvaney during the impeachment trial. But people close to him had convinced him, don't do it now, because it's only going to make a bad situation worse. And the president listen to them.
But now he's also facing a similar crisis. One, not of his own making. But a similarly challenging one in this coronavirus outbreak. Yet he's picked this is the time to push Mick Mulvaney out, replace him with Mark Meadows and you know, it's just really not a surprise. Because if you talk to people in the West Wing, Mick Mulvaney is not someone who really have the president's ear any longer. He often dismissed him, didn't take his advice and he wasn't even traveling with him a lot lately. Which is really one of the biggest signs that somebody is likely going to be pushed out soon.
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BURNETT: Amazing, he did everything he wanted him to do with Ukraine and this is how it ended. I mean, look, a source familiar with the matter, I know Kaitlan has been -- you all have been talking to says, Meadows effectively has been acting as the Chief of Staff for a while. You know, basically advising Trump. Building his own White House team. That it's sort of been happening in front of Mick Mulvaney's face.
COLLINS: Yes, it was pretty clear to see even Mick Mulvaney was aware of it. that's why he lobbied the president in recent days for that Northern Ireland job, the one that he's going to be taking after this. Because he knew his exit seemed to be upon us. But Mark Meadows is someone who is incredibly close to the president. He has been one of his most consistent advisers during all of his years in office. They met on the campaign trail when the president was running and he's really someone who the president listens to actually.
So, it will be interesting to see what he's like in this role. Because every chief of staff that the president has picked has been so different in the way that they ran the West Wing. One thing that will be notable about Mark Meadows in this role. He is someone who actually has relationships with Democratic lawmakers. Of course he's an outgoing Republican lawmaker. But no one really in his position so far had close ties with Democrats on Capitol Hill. So, it will be interesting to see how he navigates this role. And what other staffers leave, because he's coming in and who, of course, he brings with him.
BURNETT: In the White House it is constant only in inconstancy. Thank you so much Kaitlan Collins. And out front next, more breaking news, two coronavirus patients die in Florida. This news is just coming in to CNN. And the founder of Apple with his own cautionary tale about traveling in this time of coronavirus. He joins us live.
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BURNETT: Breaking news the Florida Department of Health just announcing two people with coronavirus have died. The death toll in the United States now at 17. As we have been discussing one of the biggest challenges is the lack of testing for coronavirus. And one person who learned that firs hand is the cofounder of Apple, Steve Wozniak. Now Wozniak returned to the United States from Hong Kong in early January. Quickly developing what he says was the worst type of flu in his life.
But was it coronavirus related? He does not know, because he could not get tested. And Steve Wozniak, the cofounder of Apple is OUTFRONT now. With Sanjay and myself. And Steve, thanks very much for coming on. I mean, I just want to give people a chance to understand you were on a cruise with your wife, you developed a serious illness. You flew home from Hong Kong. This was before coronavirus was sort of in the mainstream or in the public consciousness. But it was spreading at that time in China. You reached out to the CDC, you contacted them. And tell us what happened.
STEVE WOZNIAK, COFOUNDER OF APPLE: Well, actually it was after about a week. I had gone through some bad symptoms and finally got in the U.S. press, about a week later. And it was a big thing and maybe it would be a pandemic and the CDC was in control. And I hoped to the CDC, hoped that I could get tested, that they write me back and say, hopefully setup for a test. No, they just wrote back to the generic, you know, wash your hands and if you want to sign up for a test, what are all your symptoms.
Well, it was kind a past. The worst of the symptoms by then and it was -- I wasn't going to get test. And it bothered me. But looking back, you know, now we're saying, oh, let's bring in all these testing. We are going to have a million tests soon and maybe more kits after that. But what really the thing to do, I don't think is blame the mistakes we have made. I'm not a judgmental person. I think the thing to do is look at this example which happens pretty rarely, these pandemics. And be ready. Make up a plan that would have worked for the next one.
I think it's too late on this one. I think there are a lot of people walking around this country that have coronavirus or you know, covid- 19. Even if I had something else. And I could have had some other virus from Southeast Asia.
BURNETT: Well, I know you said your wife was extremely sick. She was tested for everything. They said they had no idea what it was. Now, of course, she was not tested for coronavirus. But even now, you're not in the studio right? Because you --
WOZNIAK: they didn't have a test. Oh, no, no, no, this was back on January 12 when she was throwing up blood and they didn't have a test for coronavirus here. There was no way that she could be tested. So, that was in a hospital. No, they just said it's nothing American.
BURNETT: So, you reached out to CDC, you also reach out to Sanjay. And I want to bring Sanjay in, because I know you had a whole conversation.
GUPTA: Yes, we -- I think you may know that it was actually John Skelly who told me about you and he was worried about you. And we started communicating by e-mail. So, you never were able to get tested but you did found out that it wasn't the flu. It wasn't something else obvious that was causing your symptoms. Is that right, Steve?
WOZNIAK: Look. It was not an American flu. It could had been a flu from United Kingdom that somebody brought on our cruise ship. Or it could have been one of our stop. Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong. There's no way to tell yet. We want to have a test that will say did we have it. Back then two months ago. And we're signed up for a test. But hope we get one soon.
Then we'll have better answers. Find out whether it was or wasn't. I tend to think it maybe it wasn't coronavirus because you, Dr. Sanjay Gupta told me that because we had GNI (ph) symptoms, diarrhea and vomiting. That that doesn't go with the coronavirus. And but there are other explanations that could make that possible. So, I haven't given up it could have been we have coronavirus. It could be that we had some other virus, other flu.
GUPTA: I'm glad that you're feeling better, first, you and Janet. I mean, because I read, you know, it sound like it was a really tough experience. Tough few weeks for you. The test that you're thinking about -- you have been hearing Steve, all about the difficulty with testing still now so many weeks later.
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But after the fact now, there's still a test that they can possibly do where they would measure your anti bodies to see if you had been exposed to this virus is some point in the past.
WOZNIAK: Right. That's a blood drawn test and that's what we're requesting.
GUPTA: Excellent, OK.
BURNETT: I mean, yes, you know, I guess one of the questions I have, Sanjay, you know, just to give Steve and everyone a sense, right, this is something that could give us a sense of how widespread this really was. Because right now we don't know. Steve saying a lot of people could be walking around with it. I would assume you would concur (inaudible).
WOZNIAK: They probably were. Because how many cities -- it's popping up in city after city after city. There are carriers that aren't detectable. We don't know the number because we don't have tests. And people with a slight sore throat. Let me tell you something, when we came back from Hong Kong, and we felt the symptoms getting real strong in us, we were around my son, and who was living at our house for a few weeks, for about one to two hours and he came down with a sore throat, but it was mild enough. It didn't seem like, you know, some farfetched thing. You've got to report. He's younger.
So, how many people like that could there be in this country? And how many could have come back the way we did that actually had that virus or something else as we might have. You know, I don't claim we had it, but we were early, early in the game and we had something and I wish, never again would I want to go through what I had to go through to get on your show.
GUPTA: You know, I mean, you described it as the worst flu of your rife. We've been hearing a lot about the sort of numbers, you know, in terms of how many people have been infected. But in terms of what it actually feels like, when you say the worst flu of your life, what do you mean?
WOZNIAK: The early starting sore throat part of it and breathing difficulties, only had really a high fever for only about one day. And it went away. But you know, laying in bed last night I had the same symptoms. I don't know what I have right now. Might be something, totally new and different. Might be mild, but laying in bed last night, oh, man, it felt the same and it's no fun at all. I hope it's not a relapse.
BURNETT: So, Steve, when, you know, Elon Musk came out, you know, obviously you know, you know him, Tesla, SpaceX, he tweets today the coronavirus panic is dumb. When you hear something like that, given what you've gone through, given what your worried about, what do you say when someone says something like that?
WOZNIAK: Well, there is some truth to that. Because the panic is, oh, my gosh, we might get it. Well, I don't think anything would -- we've taken one step that's going to stop you from getting it or not. I mean, if there's a lot of carriers around that you can't tell and you can't see. We haven't done anything really. So, why panic about it? Panic just gets in the way of, you know, at least some clear thinking. BURNETT: How do you walk that line, Sanjay?
GUPTA: I think, you know, the -- I sort of agree with that, I think the honesty about this, there's facts, there's data, and present that, I think it can be done in a way that is not, you know, is not histrionic nor is it --
BURNETT: Or pejorative.
GUPTA: -- yes, I mean, we need to --
WOZNIAK: Here's what I would suggest.
GUPTA: Yes. I'd love to hear it.
WOZNIAK: The next time pandemic is arising, in a very early stages, I'm going back to early January, we should have a plan for strong leadership that starts taking a lot of action to be ready in case it does come here. And, you know, look at these cruise ships, did we ever say, well, like, you know, security in airports, we could test everybody going on, not give them a real full coronavirus test, but just look at them, do you have any of the symptoms and keep them away from the others. We don't do that. We don't it at sports events. We don't do it in major events. You know, it's probably impossible to do is the answer. There's way too many people, too many (inaudible).
BURNETT: It would change modern society beyond the point --
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GUPTA: We don't pay attention on things until we're smacked in the face with it, as it turns out.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you --
WOZNIAK: Yes, which is exactly, reacting in what we should proactive and think about the next one.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, I appreciate your time, Steve.
And next, a much lighter note on this story, people elbowing their way through the coronavirus crisis.
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BURNETT: Here's Jeanne Moos.
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JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If the now dreaded handshake leaves you shaking your head, no, our doctors and our politicians are elbowing their way in from Senator Dick Durbin to the vice president and not just once -- JIMMY KIMMEL, JIMMY KIMMEL SHOW: And there you go.
MOOS: Jimmy Kimmel has a name for it.
KIMMEL: It's called the elbow.
MOOS: Something Jimmy practiced with his side kick wearing a coffee filter mask, even a floor broker known as the Einstein of Wall Street is doing it. But you know who's not doing it? President Trump shook 10 hands on a single receiving line.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: if we don't shake hands they're not going to like you too much.
MOOS: He says he's not taking protective measures, though he must at least be doing what Stephen Colbert did.
If you're not in the sanitizing, jokey alternative range from the booty bump, to the foot bump, to the Vulcan salute, even Germany's leader had her hands spurned and whatever you do --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: start working on not touching your face.
MOOS: Maybe you better start working on it.
TRUMP: And I haven't touched my face in weeks. I miss it.
MOOS: You know, what else is catchy, that germy pen you used to sign the coronavirus spending bill.
TRUMP: Here, this is for you.
MOOS: Tossed to an unsuspecting reporter. There are even pizza do's and don'ts, don't lick your finger and then touch the coffee lid. Do, do the elbow bump while wearing a pizza mask. When someone noted, is that the same elbow that everyone is supposed to cough and sneeze into? The daily show did a bit called watch those hands.
