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Erin Burnett Outfront
CDC Recommends All Americans Wear Masks In Public; 26.5M Americans Fled For Unemployment Benefits in Last 5 Weeks; WH Pushes Unproven Trump Theory on Warm Weather Slowing Virus; Top Vaccine Doctor Says He was Removed from Federal Post After Questioning Drug Trump Touted; Source: Coronavirus Task Force had to Convince Trump to Denounce Georgia Gov's Reopening Decision; Key Model: Georgia Needs to Wait Until June 22 to Safely Reopen. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired April 23, 2020 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. MEGAN RANNEY, EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN, LIFESPAN/BROWN UNIVERSITY: Based on our experiences in Australia and in other countries in the southern hemisphere, I wouldn't predict that it's going to completely disappear just because it gets warmer out.
I also just want to echo the prior guest's comments that going out in the sun or exposing yourself to these high intensity UV lamps is not going to protect you from COVID-19. I don't want people to think that this is another miracle cure to potentially risk sunburn, skin cancer and other dangerous consequences because of the statements of the President tonight.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Yes. I mean, that is really important for people to hear.
And Dr. Reiner, the other thing on this chart, which I wanted to ask as a specific question is about aerosol transmission, right? We had understood, obviously, that it spread via droplet transition - transmission, I'm sorry, and there had been, I guess, at this point maybe the assumption given what we've seen in many places that there was aerosol. But they appear to be confirming that and that in temperatures of nice summer days, 70 to 75 degrees, in an aerosol environment it could live two hours.
And that, I suppose, on one level I don't know how you look at that. Is that something to feel good about that that is less than in colder temperatures or is that something to be concerned about, but still in any kind of crowded situation in the summer you could have pure aerosol with coronavirus for up to two hours.
DR. JONATHAN REINER, CARDIOLOGIST, ADVISED WHITE HOUSE MEDICAL TEAM FOR 8 YEARS: Yes. Erin, we know the virus is spread by both droplets and by aerosol. And what I would say is everyone needs a mask when they go out. Wherever you go into public place, you need a mask to protect mostly your community, but also to a certain degree yourself. Wear a mask.
BURNETT: And Dr. Ranney, let me give you just a chance to respond to that. I mean, how much calm should we take, again, if all this bears out? But, obviously, this is what they're putting forth is how they've tested it, that it would still live in summer temperatures, aerosol for two hours.
RANNEY: I mean, two hours is a long time, right? If you're going to the grocery store and someone coughs or sneezes directly on you, you don't have two hours to wait. If I'm working in my emergency department and I'm face-to-face with a patient, the fact that it's warm outside is not going to protect me.
So two hours is great and it means that it may live for less time on surfaces like playgrounds or tennis courts or other things outdoors. But inside in air conditioning where there's not sunlight or again if you're in that direct face-to-face situation, it's not going to protect us. I think we can see that there will likely be a decrease in the number of cases over the summer, but not a complete disappearance.
And again, sunlight is not a panacea. It is not going to be a cure all. It is not going to save us from this virus.
BURNETT: Right. And certainly as you point out, places like Singapore where they're now seeing records is, obviously, tropical.
Kaitlan Collins is with us now. And Kaitlan, you were in that that briefing room. Obviously, the President extremely defensive when interacting with you and others.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he was. It's not totally clear why, of course, Erin. But the question we had for the President seemed to be a pretty obvious one about Rick Bright, of course, the official who's leading that agency that was leading the charge on vaccine production. It says he was removed from his job as part of retaliation, because basically he wanted further scientific vetting on hydroxychloroquine. The drug that the President has pushed from this room multiple times.
And the White House hasn't really formally responded to those allegations launched by Bright who has since hired an attorney, it says he plans to file a whistleblower complaint in any way. So it's kind of unusual the President wouldn't want to respond to that if they don't think these allegations are true, where Rick Bright says he felt that there was political pressure to fund certain drugs and, of course, that's the power he has as in charge of that agency.
He basically picks which vaccines are going to purchase and fund to hopefully produce one day. And so it's kind of unusual the President would not answer multiple questions about Rick Bright. He hasn't mentioned him beyond yesterday when he denied knowing who the official was. Well, certainly people have filled the President in on it since then because of the situation ongoing now that he is going to file this complaint.
You saw Democrats telling our colleague, Manu Raju, that they wanted to speak to Dr. Rick Bright as well about what his allegations are about what was happening over the Department of Health and Human Services. But we did not get answers to those questions here tonight.
BURNETT: John King?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, look, it's a perfectly fair question, number one. And number two, there will be a paper trail about Dr. Bright and his leaving. He has made his own statements. He has an attorney now, calling himself a whistleblower and this is going to play out through the process and the like.
But it's another example of let's assume for the sake of argument that the President did not know and did not know that this had happened. It would not be the first time someone in the administration, someone more senior did something because they thought it was what the President wanted.
Remember, Mr. Modly, who just left as the Acting Secretary of the Navy or the Commander the USS Theodore Roosevelt, that aircraft carrier.
[19:05:04]
I think it's over 700 now sailors on that ship who had tested positive for COVID-19. The Acting Secretary at the time fired him and it was became clear and reporting later because he thought that's what the President would like, because Capt. Crosier, Commander Crozier had his letter leaked, where he was begging for help. He had this outbreak on his ship and he was begging for help.
There was a chain of command issue there. That is true. But it would not be the first time someone in the administration thought this is how I cover favor with the President. This person disagrees with the President, this person wants to put science, caution, process, protocol over the President's zeal for hydroxychloroquine. He's now gone.
We'll get more answers to this because as Kaitlan said, Congress is getting involved. There will be a paper trail. He has an attorney now. We will get more answers. But if the President wants to have these briefings, stand there and walk into the room.
And again, it's his house, but there's a tradition. I was there for almost a decade. It's not his room. I know it's part of his house. Trump supporters are going to say, of course, it's his room. The Brady Briefing Room through all administrations, that's viewed as a special temple for the First Amendment.
If he wants to come in there and he wants to have the show and tell, he should have to answer questions too. The fact that he won't answer the questions tells you something.
BURNETT: It's exactly what that is and that relationship with the press is meant to be tough and often adversarial. That's the nature of it. That's not bias. That's what reporters do.
Daniel Dale, watching that, going through some of the fact checks here, what stands out to you as obviously our nightly fact checker?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Erin, the President said that we're getting close to a vaccine and then he amended that to say, we're not close on testing because it takes a long time to test vaccines. Well, let's be clear about what we're talking about here. Dr. Fauci has said that this is a minimum of a 12 to 18 month process and other experts think even that is highly optimistic.
So when we're talking about close, we're talking about more than a year and possibly well over a year. The President said that Joe Biden does not want to debate him because of the coronavirus. Biden said today at a fundraiser, I'm ready to debate him on Zoom or Skype or Slack or Hangouts, in-person anytime, anyplace he wants, so that's unfounded.
The President also claimed that he has not stopped hyping up hydroxychloroquine. By the numbers, we know that's untrue. My colleague Marshall Cohen posted a chart showing that, for example, between March 19th and march 25th, he mentioned it 15 times. Between April 16th and 22nd just once, so that has fallen off.
So again, over and over again, the President is promoting or uttering information that's just not true, Erin.
BURNETT: And you mentioned hydroxychloroquine, Dr. Reiner, I know you've talked a lot about this and a lot of the concerns that you see as a heart surgeon in terms of the damage that this can do to people with cardiac issues as well as others. And we know that there have been now several studies indicating that it is indeed not effective and perhaps very dangerous.
There was another drug that people were looking at as possibly very helpful. Remdesivir which the results from the trial everybody had been waiting for seemed to be accidentally posted online today. This is an existing drug, right? So if it worked, it would have been very quick to get in the pipeline.
And again, the posting said the drug was not effective. Now, the drug maker says, not so fast. Don't read much into this. We have more to say, so we'll see. But the question I want to ask from this is if you start taking out these existing drugs that we already knew many of the risks and some of the possible benefits, right, and then all of a sudden, you're going to be looking at totally unproven drugs, how long, how much damage does that do to the possibility of a quick and very effective treatment if the existing drugs do not work?
REINER: Well, first of all, there are over 20 drugs being evaluated for a treatment of the coronavirus, so there are a lot of drugs in the pipeline. So it's really not just hydroxychloroquine or remdesivir. There are all kinds of different avenues. The report about remdesivir was a small thing 300 or so patient report, which was published in a website for the World Health Organization, apparently erroneously.
I read the piece and it looks like at least from that initial report that there wasn't really much of a benefit to remdesivir, but it's being studied in a much larger cohort. So we should have better data soon within the next several weeks, so we'll have to see. But there are a lot of irons in the fire here, Erin.
So if one of these initial drugs don't work, we have many other potential therapeutics in the pipeline being evaluated.
BURNETT: So Dr. Ranney, let me ask you, this also comes as we find out on the day the President is talking about the sunlight getting rid of this summer, it's his implication. New model from Northeastern University suggests there were 10s of thousands of early cases of coronavirus in the United States that went undetected.
Now, this is - as we've heard from the CDC and Dr. Birx, they say, look, we have this whole flu monitoring system, when cases start to come back up as the economy reopens, we're going to see them because we have that existing system.
[19:10:04]
But what this shows is that back on March 1st, there were 23 confirmed cases. There could have been as many as 28,000 infections. So either that flu monitoring model didn't pick it up and somehow didn't work or, I guess, is there the possibility that the symptoms here have become much more severe over that time? Do we do we know which it could be?
RANNEY: Yes. So many of us in the emergency department in Intensive Care Units across the country have been talking about how this was a particularly bad flu season. That CDC flu monitoring measures for respiratory symptoms and presumably now if they see a bump up in the number of respiratory symptoms that are coming through emergency departments, they'll say, this is probably COVID-19 coming Back.
Back in February, we weren't testing for it. No one had reported community transmission in the United States. So those cases were thought to be just flu. I don't think that we can dismiss the CDC system all together, but this does confirm the suspicions of many of us on the front lines who are wondering if this was actually in the country earlier than was reported (inaudible) ...
BURNETT: So it doesn't make you fear that ...
RANNEY: ... so much more serious virus that the (inaudible), yes.
BURNETT: So, I guess, the question is - that makes sense what you're saying, so the question of did the symptoms somehow become more severe over that time or some sort of change here, you're not as concerned about that.
RANNEY: No. I mean, I think COVID-19 is a much more serious virus than the flu. There are no data of that. Case fatality rate is higher. The way that it presents in the emergency department is worse. We have no innate immunity to this virus. Right now, in this country, it is more serious than a flu and it probably was even before we were detecting it.
I hope that the CDC will now track those influenza like illnesses and know that they include COVID. But I don't think that the virus has mutated or has become more serious in the last couple of months.
BURNETT: And Jim Acosta, again, the backdrop to this conversation is the President tonight talking about whatever injections or something that a person could do to protect themselves, to disinfect themselves. But his overall point being that if it comes back in the fall, it could be gone by then, which has been directly refuted by Dr. Anthony Fauci on the very same podium that the President stood on tonight, 24 hours ago saying there is one thing I am certain of and that is coronavirus will be here in the fall.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Erin. And it seems there's a pattern here, every step along the way the President wants to inject, if I may use the word, some optimism into the debate over the corona virus and treatments and how long it's going to last and where we are as a country and so on. And that, I suppose, is all well and good, but it has to be backed up by science.
And one of the things that we've noticed and Daniel was talking about this to some extent, but to expand on that, what we've always also noticed in recent weeks is that you're seeing less of the scientists less of the experts at these briefings and more of Trump and it really is backwards. Because what the public needs at these coronavirus briefings is tested scientific information.
And one of the things that we've heard from Dr. Fauci over and over again when it comes to treatments for the coronavirus, that is going to be done in clinical trials and these clinical trials are vigorous and it takes time for the top scientists of this country to agree upon a treatment for something as serious as the coronavirus. That same process is going to take place right now.
I was talking to a source close to the task force earlier today about hydroxychloroquine and it is frustrating. Yes, obviously, it's frustrating to the scientist when they don't have the answers, when they can't come out and say aha one way or the other. But this source was basically urging me to be patient these, these trials are going to end, these studies are going to end and we're going to have a better sense sooner rather than later hopefully as to what is going to be an effective treatment for the coronavirus.
But to come out into the briefing room, as the President did weeks ago and was pumping up hydroxychloroquine like his allies on Fox News were and now because that appears to be not the best treatment for coronavirus based on some initial studies, he's moved on some other junk science. And I think at some point, the sciences have to rein him in and say, Mr. President, you have to stop doing this because lives are at risk. People could follow this advice and get hurt.
BURNETT: And Kaitlan Collins, we're now finding out that when it comes to, let's just say even the State of Georgia opening up well before any of the guidelines from the White House says that any state should do so. The President seemed to indicate he was supportive of Gov. Kemp in every way. And I know you've been reporting, well, it turned out that Dr. Anthony Fauci was in those meetings saying you cannot say that, you cannot say that, you must change. Indeed the President did.
But this seems to be really a coming to head between the President and some of these scientists, particularly to be frank, Anthony Fauci.
[19:15:03]
COLLINS: Well, that's what's so interesting, Erin, to see how the week progressed here. Because you saw Dr. Birx was asked about that multiple times. We also asked about South Carolina and their opening measures not following the guidelines that the White House put out. And initially, Dr. Birx was saying that she hoped people could follow the guidelines, but if they could find ways to be creative by opening hair salons and tattoo parlors, then she wasn't going to judge them.
Then you saw Dr. Fauci come out here yesterday, he offered a much different take on that. A very emphatic reasoning saying that he did not believe that was the right step for the Georgia governor to be taking and that's something the President seconded again tonight saying he did not agree with what Gov. Kemp is doing.
And it's notable that Gov. Kemp is an ally of the President, of course. He has been here at the White House. He's met with the President in the Oval Office and the President is telegraphing tonight that he does not agree with those measures. But I do want to point out one interesting thing the President said were after earlier today in an interview, Dr. Fauci said he just didn't think the nation was where they needed to be on testing yet, was talking about ramping it up.
The President said that he had not seen those comments, but if Dr. Fauci made those comments that he disagreed with what Dr. Fauci was saying about the level of testing not being where it needs to be in the country. Of course, as the President has insisted it is and governors have said it just simply is not.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you, Kaitlan. And thanks very much to all of you.
I want to talk now more about President Trump's collision course with the scientists on his coronavirus task force. As we just mentioned, contradicting Dr. Anthony Fauci tonight, specifically, on testing capacity in the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: We absolutely need to significantly ramp up not only the number of tests, but the capacity to actually perform them. I am not overly confident right now at all ...
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... doing very well on testing. If he said that, I don't agree with him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And that comes as one of President Trump's top doctor says he was pulled from I'm working on a coronavirus vaccine because he wanted more vetting for that anti-malaria drug, hydroxychloroquine, that the President frequently touted as a treatment in the President's words a possible game changer was his favorite description for that.
OUTFRONT now, Joel Clement. He spent seven years at the Interior Department under both President Obama and President Trump. Says he was reassigned as a top climate change official under President Trump as retaliation for his views on climate change.
So Joel, thanks for being with me. Let me just ask you how much pressure, people are trying to understand when the President comes out and says one thing and some of the members of task force are more polite than others in terms of how they push back, how much pressure comes from the President to push his desired narratives, despite what the science may say?
JOEL CLEMENT, EX-INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL; SAYS TRUMP ADMIN TRIED TO SILENCE HIM: Well, the political pressure is immense, not just from the President but from his cabinet members on scientists and professionals and experts, partly because now we know they have this anti-science agenda, which is suppress the science, promote at theories, marginalize and sideline scientists and experts and promote people who are willing to tow the party line. And that means that they're going to punish those who don't tow the party line.
So there's a constant tension between those civil servants who are there to protect us in these political appointees.
BURNETT: So, Dr. Fauci obviously, there's that difference on testing. And Dr. Fauci is in line with the science. Ashish Jha, from the Harvard Global Health Director said to me, I haven't met a single professional who doesn't think we need a lot more testing moments after the President said, there's a lot of professionals out there who aren't that big on testing. Well, there aren't.
Dr. Fauci, of course, has been pushing testing. He's been saying coronavirus is not going away moments after the president said that it might go away. Tonight. Dr. Fauci was not at that White House briefing.
Do you think in any way that his job, his position may be in danger because he continually going against the President on some of these crucial issues, whether it'd be hydroxychloroquine not being ready or testing or the virus itself?
CLEMENT: Well, certainly his job is in danger. I think we're all holding our breath hoping he keeps it. But we're seeing evidence from within the agencies that jobs like that are in danger. We've recently heard about Dr. Bright at BARDA and his reassignment, which was very similar to what I went through as a whistleblower at Interior.
So that constant concern about our professionals in there who are looking to protect us is warranted and I sure hope as does most of America that Dr. Fauci keeps that job because we need experts there. We cannot be taking our advice from the President, certainly on this issue.
BURNETT: And you talk about the Dr. Fauci issue. Of course, you mentioned Rick Bright. Yesterday, President Trump claimed that his CDC Director, Robert Bradfield was going to make a correction. The Washington Post had reported and put in quotes that Redfield said a second wave of coronavirus in the fall could be worse. [19:20:00]
And Redfield then when read the quote directly admitted it was accurate. Here's that example and another, Joel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He was misquoted, totally misquoted.
DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: I'm accurately quoted in The Washington Post.
TRUMP: That might not come back at all, Jeff (ph). It may not come back at all.
FAUCI: We will have coronavirus in the fall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So what goes on behind the scenes when we hear that in front of the cameras?
CLEMENT: Honestly, Erin, I haven't the faintest idea how they're handling that because that is unprecedented. This level of political interference in the scientific work that's taking place to protect us is unprecedented and we've certainly seen this. There was a survey done two years ago by my colleagues at the Union of Concerned Scientists that they surveyed federal scientists in 16 different agencies and they found even two years ago that there was an unprecedented level of political interference in science. In fact, there's a paper that was just published today analyzing those results.
So this is this is new territory. I think we're all wondering how on earth a President of the United States can be saying these kinds of things in public. These kinds of conversations may have happened in the past, but certainly not in the public eye and certainly not with the intent to sideline scientists and to grab the spotlight away from the experts. It's really remarkable. And frankly, I can't imagine what it's like to be in that room.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Joel, I appreciate your time and your perspective. Since, of course, you have been there in this administration as a scientist.
CLEMENT: Thanks for having me.
BURNETT: Thank you.
CLEMENT: Thanks, Erin.
BURNETT: And you know the influential model that the White House often cites, it has just been updated, and it shows that some states should wait even longer to reopen safely. One of them on the list is Georgia where, as you may know, the most aggressive plan to reopen goes into effect in just a few hours. That model now says Georgia should wait until June 22. That would be two months before it allows salons, gyms and other businesses to reopen. They are reopening tomorrow.
Nick Watt is OUTFRONT live in Los Angeles. Nick, health officials there is saying coronavirus is now the leading death that when you look at across this country more than heart disease, more than cancer and now number one where you are too in Los Angeles County.
NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So they are saying, Erin, that among the diseases that they track, COVID-19 is now the deadliest. Taking an average of 44 lives every day. Used to be heart disease at 31.
And also, remember, a lot of people have been trying to compare COVID with the flu. Well, for what this is worth, COVID-19 is killing 44 people a day in L.A. County on average. The flu is only killing five. Meanwhile, we are also getting some very interesting new data out of New York.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WATT(voice over): The number of people infected by this rampant virus in New York State the global hotspot might actually be a stunning 10 times higher than we thought.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. AMESH ADALJA, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: It tells us that this virus is much more widespread.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT(voice over): Phase one of an antibody testing program suggests that as many as 2.7 million New Yorkers might have already been infected. But the State's current confirmed case count is just under 270,000.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D) NEW YORK: Thirteen point 9 percent tested positive for having the antibodies. They had the virus. They developed the antibodies and they are now 'recovered'.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT(voice over): New York's death toll of around 19 and a half thousand is almost certainly also too low.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: That number is going to go up. Those deaths are only hospitalization or nursing home deaths. That does not have what are called at home deaths.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT(voice over): Now, a higher infection rate could mean this virus is actually less deadly than we thought kills fewer of those who get it and ...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADALJA: We are developing some immunity to this. There are people that have mild illness that don't even know that they're sick. And those individuals may be part of how we move forward as we start to think about reopening ...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT(voice over): But New York is not opening up, not yet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CDC: We need to see how this is playing out in each community and have the ability to test thoroughly and protect citizens before we think about opening up.
FAUCI: We absolutely need to significantly ramp up. I am not overly confident right now at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT(voice over): Wherever, whenever we open cases will likely rise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR CARLOS GIMENEZ (R) MIAMI DADE COUNTY: We're never going to come up with something which gives you a zero probability or possibility that you're going to spread the virus, but what we want to do is make sure that you reduce the possibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT(voice over): In Miami-Dade, despite a new case count that is not consistently coming down in accordance with those White House reopening guidelines, apparently they're planning to open marinas, golf courses and parks with twists.
[19:25:02]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIMENEZ: You will be able to play tennis, singles tennis but not doubles tennis. You have to jog in a certain direction. So there are a lot of differences ...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT(voice over): And meatpacking plants still seeing outbreaks across the country. Tyson just closed its fourth facility, a beef processing plant in Washington State to test all their employees. This place usually produces enough beef every day to feed 4 million people, not anymore.
(END VIDEOTAPE) WATT: And we hear that Tyson might be closing another plant Monday in
Tennessee for a deep clean. Unclear how many COVID cases are connected to that plant. My colleague, Dianne Gallagher, also spoke with the UFCW union today. They told her that 13 plants have closed nationwide, significantly dropping the capacity for meat production in this country. And Erin, they also say that 13 workers so far have died.
BURNETT: All right. Nick Watt, thank you very much.
And I want to go now straight to Dean Banks, the President of Tyson Foods. Obviously, one of the biggest processors and food providers in the country. So Dean, I appreciate your time. Thanks for coming back.
So when we look at the plants, you have closed right now, my understanding is, you've got four closed, others do though remain open. One in Tennessee tied to 120 cases and another one in Georgia where we understand there have been four deaths and one in Texas where a suspected outbreak is being investigated.
So what I'm trying to understand is you've been saying you're going above and beyond CDC guidance. How is this happening then in plant after plant?
DEAN BANKS, PRESIDENT, TYSON FOODS: Erin, first off, thank you for having me on. I especially want to thank all of the Tyson team members. Tyson is really a family of more than a hundred thousand people just in the United States and we operate globally with more than that, of course.
Those team members are the most dedicated people I've ever seen defeating the country. As you know, Erin, we've taken a tremendous amount of precautions in our facilities, whether it's hand sanitizer when you come out. I've actually visited these facilities myself. You get masked up. You get gowned. You can put on face protection. You walk into your work, your workspace and your barriers on all sides to make sure that this disease is not spreading in our plants and we are fully committed to team member safety.
BURNETT: But yet it is spreading, so how is it spreading? What you described is a situation that sounds almost medical in nature and yet these are really serious outbreaks happening at plant after plant and people have been dying.
BANKS: What we've seen, Erin, is that our plants live within a community. We participate in a community. We donate food to the communities and we're part of that community. And from everything we've seen, the spread of the disease in the community is affecting us in the plant.
We've produced a number of campaigns to encourage our team members to social distance at home. We've provided masks to team members to take home and give to their families to make sure that we're doing everything we can to keep the disease out of our plants.
BURNETT: So, Nick was mentioning our Dianne Gallagher, our reporter who is speaking to workers at your plant in Waterloo, Iowa. Of course that plant linked to more than 180 cases. They don't say they're working in safe conditions. They say they're not. They're say it's impossible to stand six feet apart. That the workstation dividers went in only about a week ago and that even though you did mandate wearing masks, you say that, they say that's true on April 7th, they say those masks have not been provided on a regular basis and they were given bandanas at one point that were fraying.
How do you explain all this? Are you aware of all of these issues?
BANKS: Erin, this disease has been moving fast. We were extremely early in providing as many protective measures that we could possibly imagine. As far as our team members giving us input on how we can take care of them, some of our team members have suggested very early in this process protective measures that we can take and those protective measures are now deployed across all of our facilities.
Like everyone, we're learning how this disease works and spreads, and we've taken a tremendous amount of caution. We've even brought in the CDC local health officials. We've brought in epidemiologists to look at our facilities. And in some county health officials have gone so far as to tell us they believe that our plants are some of the safest places in the county for our team members to be.
BURNETT: So again, just so we understand, because I know that the headlines that we all keep seeing is meat plant after meat plant after meat plant. Why is it spreading so much? Because what you're describing just doesn't - it's not reflected in the numbers, and you have a lot of rural towns and there's the plant and the plant is clearly the epicenter of the spread.
BANKS: Like I said, Erin, we live in these communities. We are temperature testing every single team member, so everyone knows without an abundance of testing that is by far the best way to detect this disease early. And we send people who are temperature testing out into the to the public health field so they can make sure that they get tests. It doesn't happen in the broader community and we are doing everything we can to make sure that we take care of our team members.
BURNETT: Are you offering them additional pay?
[19:30:00]
DEAN BANKS, PRESIDENT, TYSON FOODS: We did.
You probably saw our company put forward 60 million there are to make sure our team members working hard with us through the crisis are rewarded for their efforts. Tyson is also -- has a very, very long history of taking care make of our team members with competitive pay, benefits, short-term disability that if they present with any form of symptom, we take care of them through the crisis. They can come can to us and tell us if they're experiencing symptoms and they can go --
BURNETT: Full paid leave?
BANKS: Yes. BURNETT: So this has all fuelled concerns about the food supply. When
we spoke last month you told me you were, quote, confident we're going to be able to continue to keep the shelves stock. I mean, obviously, now, more than 15 percent of pork production is shut down, not just your plants but other plants from companies aside from Tyson. The president of one of your subsidiaries, Tyson Fresh Meats, told CNBC, consumers will see an impact at the grocery store as production slows.
What will that look like, Dean?
BANKS: We are doing everything can to get these plants up and running again. Hopefully, cooperating with county health officials where we're getting abundance of testing. We'll be able to get the facilities up and running quickly again and feed the American people.
We -- the vast majority of our plants have no cases. We have a small minority of plants that have a single small single digit percentage of cases and we had a handful of plants where we've seen more disease and that's reflective of what's going on in the broader community. We are doing everything we can to make sure we keep the shelves stocked for the American people.
BURNETT: But there will be some impact?
BANKS: There will be some impact. The USDA reported that pork and beef supplies are down between 20 percent and 30 percent. We're doing everything in our power to get them ramped back up.
BURNETT: All right. Dean Banks, I appreciate your time. Again, thank you.
BANKS: Thank you, Erin.
BURNETT: And next, Americans are told to wear masks in public, but which ones work and which ones don't? Sanjay Gupta joins with a special report.
Plus, it's a major undertaking. One California town becoming one of the first places in the world to try to test every single resident for both the coronavirus and antibodies for us. The doctor behind the study is my guest.
And when restaurants are allowed to reopen, how long can they survive if they have to drastically reduce capacity? The former chairman and CEO of Starbucks, Howard Schultz, is my guest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:36:14]
BURNETT: Tonight, Colorado becoming just the ninth state to make masks mandatory for some residents. Three weeks after the CDC said all Americans should wear them in public. The big question now is, well, what kind of masks should you actually be wearing that does anything?
Dr. Sanjay Gupta is OUTFRONT. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. JEROME ADAMS, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: Now that we know about 25 to 50 percent of the people are spreading asymptomatically, we suggest that people wear cloth facial coverings.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While the White House recommends we wear face masks in public, some states around the country have started making that mandatory.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R), MARYLAND: I signed an executive order which will require the wearing of masks or face coverings when inside any retail establishments.
GUPTA: Many are left wondering which mask offers the best protection. Now, when we talk about face coverings, there are the surgical masks I wear in the hospital to protect patients from my own germs and avoid any splashes. And then there are the N95 respirator masks that must be fit-tested in order to protect health care workers during certain procedures.
It's the only one of the masks that prevents most very small particles from getting in when used properly. We need to keep those masks in their hands.
Then there are the disposable cloth masks, which you can buy in the store and online. They aren't made for surgery or hospitals but are also widely used.
(on camera): The CDC has recommended that we all wear cloth face masks like this one. My daughter made this one when we go out in public and we can't physically distance from each other. And keep in mind the reason is not so much to protect ourselves but to protect others from us.
(voice-over): It should come as no surprise that these medical grade masks are more effective. But that doesn't mean we should dismiss the benefit of cloth masks.
Let me show you. Take a look at this experiment done by researchers at the National Institutes of Health. They use lasers to help show how far spit travels through the air when we talk.
Watch how far the green dots go when he speaks. Without the lasers, these droplets might be invisible to the naked eye. But now, with the cloth, we barely see anything.
LYDIA BOUROUIBA, MIT PROFESSOR : It comes out in the form of a gas cloud, and the wearing of masks, therefore, could be even if they're not high grade, a way to contain the range of the cloud.
GUPTA: Lydia Bourouiba is a professor at MIT who studies the physics behind how diseases spread through coughing, sneezing and breathing.
BOUROUIBA: Sneezes, which had the highest momentum can then have these drops reach distances of up to eight meters to 26 feet. Coughs are second in line in terms of momentum and that they can basically bring drops up to 16 to 19 feet and rain drops further to the source around 6 or 8 7 feet.
GUPTA: You can see now why wearing mask in addition to social distancing is so important. Your germs can travel far.
BOUROUIBA: We also want to make sure that the mask is also clean, right? So it doesn't also become a source of secondary contamination.
GUPTA: And you don't have to be a whiz with the sewing machine, like my daughter. An old T-shirt or a bandanna will do. Ultimately, it's about having some form of barrier with multiple layers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: You know, Erin, I think culturally we're not used to wearing masks in the United States. But like so many of the things recently, we are starting to adapt. I do want to point out that the CDC does not recommend face coverings for children under two. For anyone who has trouble breathing or for people who can't remove the cover without assistance.
And when you take off your mask, be careful not to touch your eyes or your face or anything outside of the mask. Keep it as clean as possible.
[19:40:00]
Also, Erin, I can't say this point enough. This is not supposed to be a substitute for physical distancing. So, when you can, you should stay home. And stay safe -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Sanjay, thank you.
And Sanjay is going to be back in just a few minutes actually. CNN's global town hall on coronavirus coming up at the top of the hour. So you're going to see him there.
I want to go back to Dr. Jonathan Reiner again.
Dr. Reiner, obviously, you have talked a lot about the importance of masks.
DR. JONATHAN REINER, CARDIOLOGIST, ADVISED WHITE HOUSE MEDICAL TEAM FOR EIGHT YEARS: Yes.
BURNETT: So, a couple of points. You know, originally, right, we were told that the only masks that really worked were those ones in the hospital. And that may be true. But what Sanjay just showed with the lasers is that the fabric can do a lot. It can make a big difference.
So, I guess, does it -- does it -- when the president says you can wear a scarf or something, pretty much anything is good?
REINER: Well, I think anything is better than nothing. There have been a lot of studies where people have actually taken all kinds of face coverings from the lab to study this. One of the big differences between sort of a homemade cloth mask and a surgical mask is the surgical mask fits better. Because it fits better, it's a little better, it's significantly better that the blocking some of the droplets coming out of your mouth.
But what I'm troubled by is if we had enough surgical masks, we would recommend everyone wears surgical masks. So, what happened when the CDC recommended cloth masks wasn't because the public is better served by wearing cloth masks. It's that we didn't have surgical masks for 329 million people, and all of the health care providers in this country.
So it was kind of a compromise for adding some protection for when we go out without cannibalizing the supplies we need at the hospital.
BURNETT: So, what I've noticed and I'm sure many people have noticed is that people are wearing their masks, you know, when they are within six feet, right? When they're not, they don't need to. But when they are within six feet, they're wearing them.
But one thing it seems to be inadvertently possibly encouraging is a lack of social distance. That people seem to believe because they have one on that there's a sense of security and let's just say getting on an elevator with somebody or having a conversation with somebody. And that's -- that's the great risk, is it not?
REINER: Yes. I completely agree. It's just one element of protecting ourselves when we need to go out in public. You really want to maintain social distancing, you need to wash your hands over and over and over again during the day. Keep your distance from people. Put your arm up over your face if you have to cough or sneeze because particles will come through whatever you're wearing.
So, all of the common sense practices to prevent spread of respiratory pathogens we need to continue to do. Eventually, everyone will wear more effective masks. We're going to have to wear masks for a long time, and as, you know, our industry comes up to speed, we'll have better masks to wear.
BURNETT: All right. Dr. Reiner, thank you.
REINER: My pleasure.
BURNETT: And in California, a potentially ground breaking coronavirus study is underway right now. The remote town of Bolinas, which is north of San Francisco, has a population of less than 2,000 people, but they are looking to do something that no other place has done -- looking to test every single person, every resident for both coronavirus, active coronavirus and the antibodies for coronavirus. Literally this is one of the first places in the entire planet to do this.
OUTFRONT now is Dr. Bryan Greenhouse. He's a professor at the University of California-San Francisco and he's wearing his mask, as you can see, demonstrating how it should be done. One of the investigators involved in the study. And, Doctor, I appreciate your time. So, the testing is taking place
as we speak. How is it going so far?
DR. BRYAN GREENHOUSE, UCSF PROFESSOR & INVESTIGATOR INVOLVED IN CA TESTING STUDY: It's going fantastic. We have an entire community mobilized around the testing here. We've got a large community from UCSF volunteering and chipping in time to help make the testing a reality. And I'm just blown with how amazing everyone has been and how serve bring what they have to offer to make this reality for this community.
BURNETT: OK. So I know you're trying to figure out a lot of things. That's why you picked this place. You know, you could say, this is the population. It's small. You can get it done. You can actually see the results.
Why do you think, Dr. Greenhouse, that it's necessary to test for both things at the same time? Both the coronavirus and the antibodies for it?
GREENHOUSE: That's a great question. So, there's two different reasons why we're doing this. We're testing for the evidence of the coronavirus using PCR so that we can provide people with information that they need about whether they're infected right now so they can take the actions to protect themselves, their family and their community against further spread.
So, that's actually surveillance but surveillance as an intervention. We're hoping people act on the information we provide back to them and provide to the Department of Public Health right away.
[19:45:04]
The antibodies actually answer a different question and that is, how much infection has been going on in this community over the past few weeks or months? Antibody testing is an incredibly useful epidemiology tool that allows us to understand accurately how much transmission has been going on in a place over time.
BURNETT: All right. So, two questions to that point. First of all, we know we understand the math of how antibody tests can be -- you know, they can yield you half of the ones you get back can be wrong if a lot of people haven't been exposed.
So, how confident are you with the results of the antibody test?
GREENHOUSE: That's an excellent question, and something that we as scientists are trying to figure out. We are fairly comfortable with the tests we're using that they will provide a high specificity, meaning we are going to do everything we can to minimize false positive tests. And in terms of the sensitivity, they also look excellent with the current assays.
I will say one of the great advantages of this study is not only do we have test lines up to test right away, but even though we're only getting a very small amount of blood from a finger stick, we'll have enough left over as new tests box available if they end up being better at providing different information that we can use those tests to validate the results.
BURNETT: And you're going to have go back and get that.
All right. So, when are you going to get your -- when are going to know how many people have it?
GREENHOUSE: Absolutely. So, we're aiming to get results back within 72 hours to participants and to the Department of Public Health. We have our first results coming back today from testing we started on Monday, and we're hoping by next week to have all the PCR results back for the entire community.
And the antibody tests should follow soon after. They're not as urgent because people don't need to act immediately based on the results, but we're hoping within a few weeks we'll have some of the results.
BURNETT: All right. So, before you go, when you talk about what you're going to see and I know you're going to wait to give the results when you have them all. But, you know, we originally were told the first coronavirus death in the United States happened on February 26th in Washington state. We're now finding out that that is wrong and perhaps massively wrong, right?
Now we're finding out that a 57-year-old woman named Patricia Dowd (ph) from Santa Clara, California, had coronavirus and died from that on February 6th. That puts it back obviously nearly a month.
How much earlier do you think coronavirus could have been in this country than previously known? How many people possibly died from this were exposed to it way earlier than we thought?
GREENHOUSE: That's a great question. The studies that we're performing right now won't necessarily help to answer those questions directly, but I think other studies where people are going back and potentially doing additional tests on people that maybe in retrospect had suspected coronavirus but was thought to be something else will help to potentially answer the questions.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Dr. Greenhouse, I appreciate you taking the time and demonstrating that one can breathe and talk and function fully with a mask on for everybody. Thanks, appreciate your time.
GREENHOUSE: Great. Thank you very much.
BURNETT: And next, a staggering number. Twenty-six million people in this country have lost their jobs in the past five weeks. So what does the government need to do? The former chairman and CEO of Starbucks is OUTFRONT.
And Jeanne Moos on the extraordinary lengths that some bars are going through to pay their employees.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:57:23]
BURNETT: Tonight, 26.5 million Americans have filed for unemployment benefits over the past five weeks. That is 16.2 percent of the entire labor force in the United States of America. It is an incredible number and it's really impossible to sort of understand it.
And tonight, the House, passing another measure to try to help small businesses, $300 billion they're going to put to small business loans. But is it enough?
Well, OUTFRONT now, Howard Schultz. He is the former chairman & CEO of Starbucks.
And you've been talking a lot about this, Howard. So, I want to start first with this amount of money. You've said there needs to be a bridge to a vaccine.
So we're already -- when you look at small businesses alone, and obviously a lot of this money has been documented is not necessarily been to small businesses. It's more than $600 billion. But you say we need to get all the way to a vaccine to bridge for a lot of these companies, especially restaurants. How much money is needed?
HOWARD SCHULTZ, FORMER STARBUCKS CHAIRMAN AND CEO: Well, let me frame the issue first and then I'll give you the number. There's 30 million small businesses in America today employing about 60 million people. In that group is 500,000 independent restaurants.
Now, that represents approximately 44 percent of GDP. You know, everyone says the economic growth, the economic engine of the country is small business. Well, it is.
Now, what's going to happen as a result of the inability of restaurants and small businesses not having enough money to reopen and make it to a vaccine, is that there is going to be an economic tsunami for these small businesses in which approximately 10 million small businesses are going to close permanently by labor day.
BURNETT: Ten million permanently by Labor Day?
SCHULTZ: That's correct. And I don't think anyone realizes what's coming.
Now, the issue is we only have two to three months left in order to get to these businesses so that they have enough money to reopen. The challenge that they have is PPP is paying their employees enough for the next seven to eight weeks. But after that, there's no money, no resources and they have to retrain their people for new rules and regulations of how they're going to open.
But the most important fact is they're going to open with only 30 or 40 percent of their volume. And as a result of that, they're not going to be able to sustain the level of profitability necessary. They need an economic bridge to the vaccine.
And the cost of not doing this, which would be about a trillion dollars, will be much, much greater to the economy, the American people in every community in the country of not doing it.
[19:55:02]
BURNETT: And you're saying a trillion dollars just from now -- I mean, a bridge to a vaccine, things may open. You're pointing out they may not open the way they were before. We've talked to restaurant owners. They can't -- they can't make payroll, they can't operate if they're not operating to capacity.
So, the bridge to a vaccine, you're saying a trillion dollars starting where we are now, not on top of what -- another trillion dollars in another year.
SCHULTZ: Let me be clear. This is not a trillion dollars of free money. This is a low-interest long-term transformational loan for every small business in America. And the Fed has the ability -- this is an emergency, a crisis like no other. The Fed has the ability under the Emergency Powers Act Section 13 to do this.
And I hope, if this doesn't take place, I hope every voter who goes to a restaurant, who goes to a small business will understand that these businesses were left for dead by this administration and we have an opportunity right now to scream from the rafters, these people don't have a lobbying organization. They don't have a lot of resources. They must be saved.
These are hard-working families. Not only statistics who deserve an opportunity. And the most humane thing to do by the government is it to save them because they deserve it.
BURNETT: So explain from the perspective, obviously, of Starbucks. Obviously, that's a huge company. But the point is each individual store is what many restaurants around it would be dealing with in terms of rules capacity.
So, on May 4th, I know, you know, Starbucks says it's going to reopen as many stores as it can. What is that going to look like, do you think, Howard? I mean, are you going to have -- are people going to be able to sit there at all?
And I would imagine every one of those stores -- again, you're a company that can handle a lot. It's going to take a huge hit in terms of business.
SCHULTZ: Well, Starbucks is an anomaly. There's all these small businesses. We have the resources and the balance sheet to manage through the most severe storm here.
But we're going to be opening with drive-thrus and pickup windows and a lot of space between our customers, and we're clearly not going to be at 100 percent parity. No business is going to be.
So, the economic issues for a large company like Starbucks -- yes, it's going to be difficult but we will manage, sure. But for a small business, an independent restaurant that operates month to month, they don't have the cash resources, they don't have the ability to get through this.
And I'm telling you, I hope you play this interview by Labor Day because if we do not save these businesses, you're going to see 10 million small businesses go out of business, millions of people unemployed.
And the other issue, these are small businesses, independent restaurants that represent the social fabric of every community. It's not just a business. These are people that are part of the community, part of the humanity and social fabric of our neighborhood.
BURNETT: All right, Howard, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Thank you.
SCHULTZ: You're welcome.
BURNETT: And on a much lighter note, you know the old saying money does not grow on trees, but what about walls of bars?
Here's Jeanne.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Laid off workers are getting a little to line authorize pockets thanks to something that used to line the walls.
Dollars plastered with messages and then slapped on the walls of places like the Sand Bar in Georgia. Hott Leggz in Fort Lauderdale. At Hamburger Joe's in North Myrtle Beach, where the slogan is bite my buns.
When coronavirus took a bite out of business, owners raised the bar.
JENNIFER KNOX, THE SAND BAR: We literally had money on the walls and time on our hands.
MOOS: So they put their hands to work, prying offer all that cash to give to laid-off employees. It took the establishment anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks to take down the bills.
RICHARD BROOKS, GENERAL MANAGER, HAMBURGER JOE'S: Some of the money is in not the best condition. Some of it had been up for 30 years of hamburger grease and dust and good memories.
MOOS: But it was good money. Around $6,000 at Hamburger Joe's.
KY NOVAK, CO-OWNER, HOTT LEGGZ: When you tear them off, you have to tape them back together. You have to keep the serial numbers together.
MOOS: Hott Leggz retrieved as much as 10,000 bucks to take to the bank.
NOVAK: I don't think fake legs is dealing with us. We had bills that had over 20 staples in it. MOOS: At the Sand Bar, they peeled off over $3,700. An anonymous
donor doubled it. One bartender said she was OK financially and gave her 600 bucks to this bartender.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?
MOOS: Who works elsewhere.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God. That will pay my rent.
MOOS: The mermaid once surrounded by bills is looking a little lonely without them. At Hott Leggz, the co-owner says --
NOVAK: The bar looks too clean right now.
MOOS: He'll be happy when they customers start attaching money again.
(on camera): Everybody knows money doesn't grow on trees. Money grows on arch ways and ceilings and corners. It sprouts from the rafters.
Jeanne Moos, CNN.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Got a dollar bill.
MOOS: -- New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: And CNN's "CORONAVIRUS: FACTS AND FEARS" town hall begins now.
END
