Return to Transcripts main page
Erin Burnett Outfront
Trump Holding Event with Supporters Shoulder-to-Shoulder and Few Wearing Masks as U.S. COVID Deaths Near 200,000; Trump: "Every American" Will have Access to Vaccine by April; Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died at 87. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired September 18, 2020 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:00]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next, Trump claims every American will now have access to a vaccine by April. How is that possible when a safe and effective vaccine has still not yet been proven or approved? Dr. Scott Atlas, who is closely advising the President on coronavirus is my guest.
Plus, long lines outside polling stations as early voting is now underway in several states, as the President is making claims of voter fraud.
And a pastor who called himself a no masker is now in the ICU with coronavirus. We have that story. Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT, President Trump tonight putting lives at risk holding another crowded rally, this time in Minnesota, a state where there has been an alarming increase in new infections. Today, Minnesota is reporting nearly 1,100 cases, which is the second highest number of new infections since the start of the pandemic. And yet these are the images, people jammed together, phones up, trying to get a glimpse of the President. Live pictures here in Minnesota.
Despite the Governor came on this program just days ago asking, pleading with the Trump campaign not to do this, said wear masks, socially distance. That is the requirement of that State. It is categorically not happening in the pictures you're seeing there.
Instead, the President is doing the opposite of what we have in our hands, that is known to save lives right now, which is masking. Just a short time ago, the President refusing to answer questions about why the White House scrapped plans in April and that time they had a plan to send, get this 650 million masks. You heard me right, 650 million masks to areas that were being ravaged by the virus at that time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Postal Service had planned on sending 650 million facemasks to Americans back in April. That never happened, why not and was it because (inaudible) ... DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't know. I don't
run it, to be honest. As you know, that's run by a commission and they run it. The Post Office has been a mess for many, many generations, but for certainly decades and it loses a lot of money. It's always lost a lot of money.
And one of the reasons it loses a lot of money now is that it's delivering all these packages and every time they deliver a package. They lose $3 a package or whatever the number may be. So I would suggest that they raise the price of packages.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: OK. What does that have to do with the fact that they were going to send 650 million masks to, at that point, just a few places in this country that would have been a bunch of mass for every person. He's talking about issues with pricing and then he went on to talk about Amazon.
He completely deflected and didn't address it. Let me just show you the draft of the news release. The headline, Historic Delivery of 650 Million Face Coverings is in Partnership with the White House Coronavirus Task Force. Now, it never happened.
And the Coronavirus Task Force, this is in the heat of everything when it was then at its worst, the President claims to know nothing about it even though it was in partnership with the White House Coronavirus Task Force.
Now, there is one thing the President didn't know at that time, obviously, was not promoting masks at all right at the time saying they weren't for him. But he did know how dangerous and how contagious the virus was. He knew that as early as February, two months before this scrapped plan to distribute 650 million masks and he confirmed again, what he knew in April.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It goes through air, Bob. That's always tougher than the touch. You know, the touch, you don't have to touch things. Right? But the air, you just read the air and that's how it's passed. And so, that's a very tricky one. That's a very delicate one. It's also more deadly than your, you know, even your strenuous flus.
BOB WOODWARD, VETERAN REPORTER: This is a monster.
TRUMP: So this rips you apart.
WOODWARD: This is a scourge urge and ...
TRUMP: It is the plague.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: It's the plague and yet the President will not tell us why the plan to send masks was scrapped. According to The Washington Post, the reason was the administration didn't want to spark panic only - let me just remind you at that time - if you've forgotten, so you lived in New York at that time or Washington or many other places, you were trying to get a mask and you couldn't. People were desperate to get masks. Do you remember that?
I mean, look at the pictures from March and April. Remember those? Those were the empty shelves, if you went and tried to buy masks in any store, limited quantity, two per customer. I remember ordering masks on Amazon at that time, I ended up five weeks later being able to get them from somewhere else. I waited another three weeks for the ones I'd ordered at that time on Amazon.
I'm not the only one. I'm sure many of you have the same experience. Imagine if five months ago, the Postal Service had started this initiative and 650 million masks were sent to Americans, where would we be today?
[19:05:02]
Would we still be on the verge of passing the grim milestone of 200,000 Americans dead as we are likely to do this weekend?
Kaitlan Collins is OUTFRONT live. She's in Minnesota tonight, where the President is holding his rally. Kaitlan, the President about to speak raising new questions about scrapping plans to send hundreds of millions of masks to Americans. Mask that obviously still would not be worn by many where you are tonight.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Not a lot of masks here at all. Very little social distancing as well. But when the President was asked earlier today why was that plan scrapped and what was the reasoning, he did not offer and instead getting into issues with the Postal Service talking about that and never really explaining why saying he doesn't run the Post Office.
But, Erin, these documents that we saw said that it was officials in the domestic policy office and the Vice President's office that had scrapped that plan out of concern that it would cause fear in American households. So, of course, we never really got the answers on that.
And it tells us there has been a real question this week about whether they are planning politics over science in this administration, because you saw the President undercutting the CDC Director after he said something on vaccines and masks that the President didn't like. And then you saw the President today talking about every American having a vaccine by April, a timeline that is incredibly rosy that even medical experts in his administration have not agreed with.
And so that comes us tonight the President is at another rally this week, one of several he's had where we are largely outside here in Minnesota and there is no ordinance requiring people to wear a mask when you're outsite. But there is very little social distancing and a lot of the supporters are crowded together here tonight, Erin. So it's more on, just like this week, of how they've been treating the pandemic.
BURNETT: All right. Kaitlan, thank you very much live from Minnesota.
And tonight we do have some troubling new numbers about the pandemic, 30 states now seeing a rise in new cases compared to a week ago. Nick Watt is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today the CDC is finally once again recommending that asymptomatic people are tested after contact with an infected person.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SYRA MADAD, SENIOR DIR., SPECIAL PATHOGENS PROGRAM, NYC'S HEALTH PLUS HOSPITALS: We know that asymptomatic spread is one of the primary drivers of this pandemic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT (voice-over): We've long known that. But in late August, CDC guidance was changed to say asymptomatic people didn't necessarily need a test after possible exposure. Two sources told CNN the change came from outside the CDC and was perhaps not properly vetted.
The CDC Director denies that, there was fierce backlash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D) NEW YORK: Shame on the people in the CDC.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT (voice-over): The White House testing are set at the time the tweak was to get appropriate, not less testing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CELINE GOUNDER, FORMER NYC ASST. COMMISSIONER OF HEALTH: I think it's more likely that this is an intentional effort by the administration to conceal the true extent of transmission and the numbers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT (voice-over): Now as we head into full this weekend will likely pass 200,000-American dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It does appear that we are trending in the wrong direction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT (voice-over): Yesterday, Wisconsin, scene of another largely maskless MAGA rally reported its highest number of new daily COVID cases since this pandemic began. Nearly 18 percent of tests coming back positive in Mississippi. Average new case counts right now rising in 30 states.
Here's a cautionary tale, Italy had an horrific spring, crushed the curve in the summer, but today logged its highest daily case count since May 1st.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Maria Van Kerkhove, Technical Lead, WHO coronavirus response: In the United States, this can be overturned. This can be - you can overcome this and you will, and I know you will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT (voice-over): Can we? Really?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just don't have enough testing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT (voice-over): And do we really have the will?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. JEROME ADAMS, SURGEON GENERAL: There's no chapter in the pandemic playbook for a presidential election, a highly divisive presidential election and there's no chapter in the pandemic playbook for a social justice movement, the likes of which we haven't seen since the '60s.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WATT: And Erin, some interesting data out of South Carolina today that masks really do work, but also that making people wear masks works. They compared counties that had mask mandates and counties that did not have mask mandates and the counties with those mask mandates saw their case counts falling much, much quicker. Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much. We see that again and again.
All right. OUTFRONT now, Dr. Scott Atlas, a member of the White House Coronavirus Task Force. And Doctor, I really appreciate your time. So, a lot to ask you about tonight and I wanted to start off with the vaccine comments the President made today when he said all Americans will have access to a vaccine by April. Obviously, at this point we do not yet know if there is a vaccine, which is both safe and effective. Do you feel comfortable with this timeline? How is it going to happen?
[19:10:04]
DR. SCOTT ATLAS, ADVISER, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE: Yes. Thanks for having me. Well, I mean, I happen to speak to the people at HHS and Dr. Moncef today who was running the vaccine development program. And the President is exactly right, pending Approval, of course, of a safe and effective vaccine.
There's more than a hundred million doses being manufactured by the end of the year. There are hundreds of millions being manufactured and delivered during the first three months. This is, of course, pending the approval and the first deliveries will go out within 24 hours of the FDA approval process, saying that there's an emergency use authorization. And every American who wants the vaccine will be able to get the vaccine by April that's factually true.
I just went through the entire documents with the HHS. I mean, the President is exactly right on this. I'm not sure why there's some kind of comment about it.
BURNETT: So I'll tell you why, because you're saying every American get it by April that's factually true. The reason is because the timeline that you're giving is not the same as the one the CDC director Robert Redfield gave earlier this week. Let me just play again, Doctor, for you what he said under oath.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: If you're asking me when is it going to be generally available to the American public so we can begin to take advantage of vaccine to get back to our regular life, I think we're probably looking at late second quarter, third quarter 2021.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: That's why. Are you saying that his view of this is just wrong? I mean, you are saying that. Why aren't you on the same page?
ATLAS: Well, I can't control what someone else says and I don't know who told Dr. Redfield that and I'm not criticizing Dr. Redfield. But I can tell you what the factual information is that pending approval and, of course, it depends on when the approval goes. But pending approval, I've seen the numbers, there's hundreds of millions. And the President was exactly right, there is no question about what the President says, that is the timeline.
BURNETT: So he's assuming the same thing by the way on approval you are, because he laid out it'd be health care workers first, the whole prioritization that you're well aware of, Dr. Atlas. Health care workers, older Americans, he laid that same thing out. So you're basically saying he doesn't have the facts or he's wrong in his interpretation or he got the wrong information, but what you have is right and what the CDC Director put out there under oath is not right.
ATLAS: Listen, if I can repeat it, the HHS people in charge of the program showed me the documents. It is factually true what I said, it's factually true what the President said. You saw the press briefing, probably, Dr. Moncef was on there. That is the timeline, period. BURNETT: So, obviously, you have to find a vaccine that works and as
you point out, we don't yet know that we have one, this is what you're saying is all pending, your timeline here is pending approval. The two leading vaccines in the United States. Pfizer and Moderna, we've spoken to the people running those trials.
They've got to store their vaccines at, what, 94, 98 degrees negative. You can't do that in pharmacies and grocery stores. That that kind of technology isn't just ubiquitously out there. You've got all of that lined up, the ability to transmit a not fully stable vaccine and then store it and then distribute it and get it in people's arms in a very quick period of time. You've worked all that out?
ATLAS: Well, I didn't work it out. I'm new here, but the people running the vaccine distribution have been working on this for months. Yes, the President's Operation Warp Speed team has it all worked out. There's a 50-page document, 57-page document of the plan sent to the states. It involves the distribution, the refrigeration, the IT that's necessary because it's a double dose, presumably, double dose vaccine.
BURNETT: Yes.
ATLAS: The retail outlets, there's over 51,000 outlets where people will actually get the administration of the vaccine. There's something like 14,000 centered in low-income areas, specifically so that lower income people and families are accessing the vaccine. Of course, there's no mandate to get the vaccine, by the way, if people want to get the vaccine, it will be available and it's hundreds of millions of doses during the first three months, totally on the order of 700 million by April.
I mean, that's often worked out, it's a very detailed (inaudible) ...
BURNETT: All right. So two doses a person, your number, yes, I understand that. Again, I just am get confused at the two different storylines here, but you've laid your argument out. I want to ask you about a letter and you know this letter, I'm holding it up here. This is a letter from some of your colleagues at Stanford.
Dozens of doctors and researchers from Stanford where your senior fellow, your colleagues, they write that 'many of his opinions and statements run counter to establish science that guides effective public health policy', they're referring to you.
[19:15:00]
Your lawyers said that they had until the end of the day to day to retract those comments or you're suing for defamation. Have any of them retracted or reached out to you to do so?
ATLAS: I'm not going to comment on that. That sort of a distraction. I think the people embarrass themselves enough and there's no issue there. There are people that are sort of blind to the fact, it's OK. I understand. It's a very polarized setting.
But let me put it this way. BURNETT: Yes.
ATLAS: When I was asked by the President to help, I'm a person in health policy. I've been working in health policy for 15 years and for 25 years in medical science. If the President of the United States asked somebody in health policy to help them in the biggest health care crisis in the century, there would be something mentally wrong with you if you would say no and so I did.
And I'm thrilled to be here because I'm doing something important. The President is completely right and understanding that common sense approach to any kind of policy. It's not stopped COVID-19 at all costs, as he said, early on in the third week of March, the cure cannot be worse than the problem and that is oppression statement that has really proven true, because we must consider the impacts of the policy and this is coming out all over the world.
So I think this is a very balanced approach. It's all about the data. It's not just saying it's about the data, it's actually using the data, understanding the data and understanding the impact of the lockdown. I think we're going to do OK here. Americans, of course, it's a big tragedy, 200,000 people have died. There's nothing to minimize that.
But everything is going well here. We have a lot of reasons for optimism. People are doing much better in the hospital. There's a lot of drugs have been developed under this administration ...
BURNETT: OK, yes. So ...
ATLAS: ... with facilitation of massive amounts of PPE and the vaccine, so I'm actually cautiously optimistic here and I think Americans should be too.
BURNETT: Which is good. I'm just holding up a mask here, because the one most common sense thing that we all know works the best that we have now is this, right? What I'm holding up just a basic surgical mask you can buy on Amazon.
One of the points in the ladder that they make is about the importance of using facemasks to reduce the spread of coronavirus, which is obviously not controversial. Your colleagues say in their letter that 'the use of face masks, social distancing, hand washing and hygiene have been shown to substantially reduce the spread of coronavirus. Crowded indoor spaces are settings that significantly increase the risk of community spread of coronavirus'.
Again, that's very basic, right? And so they're saying that you said these things that are countered to their statements here. Here's what you told Tucker Carlson about masks last month Dr. Atlas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATLAS: The reality is that the certain data that's very controversial about mask, there's no real good science on general population widespread in all circumstances wearing masks. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: In those comments, Doctor, you are questioning masks.
ATLAS: Well, if you listen to my comment, I said there's no sound science. In fact, I'll say it again, there's no sound science that shows that you should have all populations wear mask in all circumstances, quote unquote, if I may quote myself. And that is very much in concert with exactly what's posted on the WHO website and that's in concert with the President's own policy, which is a reasonable policy, which is wear mask when you cannot socially distance, particularly when you're in areas where there are high-risk people.
And that's what the who says, they say it, I'm not sure what the controversy is here. If you think that it sounds science to walk out in the middle of a desert wearing a mask when you're all alone ...
BURNETT: Right.
ATLAS: Or if you're in your own car all alone wearing a mask or if you're running through a park all alone and you should be wearing a mask, I'm sorry, but that's neither scientific nor rational.
BURNETT: OK. So tonight the rally in Minnesota, this should be then very easy by your logic. This is the video. This is what we see. There are no masks. There is not social distancing. This is what's been happening at rally after rally. So I would imagine you've told the President that this is wrong, right?
ATLAS: The President sets the policy and I have agreed with his policy, which is wear mask when you cannot socially distance, just like I said ...
BURNETT: But they're not doing that. They're not doing that there.
ATLAS: ... yes, but we don't put them in prison for not wearing a mask. I'm sorry. I don't think he's going to be willing to do that and I don't think he's going to be willing to mandate a mask.
BURNETT: But he's holding a rally with them there. But, I mean, do you think that he bears responsibility?
ATLAS: Yes.
BURNETT: He knows they're going to do this. They do it again and again, he keeps holding the rallies. It's hard to argue that ...
ATLAS: Well, I ...
BURNETT: ... there he is, he's walking out right now.
ATLAS: No, I think it's very simple to argue that the President's policy is the right policy. It's a common sense policy and he's not in favor of mandating or putting people in jail for not wearing a mask. I'm sorry, that's irrational. That's not what the Presidential guidelines are for and I'm completely comfortable with his policy and that's a very rational policy.
BURNETT: So I understand you keep saying about this policy.
ATLAS: But I think most Americans understand.
[19:20:04]
BURNETT: Dr. Atlas, but what I'm asking you is, OK, clearly the people at rally don't understand, because they're not doing it. And what they're doing is wrong and it's wrong by your own logic and he is OK with it. And he is supporting it by holding rally after rally and walking out there and he's not going to tell them put your mask on people save lives. He's not going to do it, right. I mean, I'm saying as a doctor.
ATLAS: I think the ...
BURNETT: Don't you have a problem with that?
ATLAS: I have no problem with people taking independent responsibility for their lives. Once they understand the recommendations, the guidelines, the - people are - I actually don't underestimate American people. They're going to understand what they think they should do and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
BURNETT: Right. I mean, we've talked to some of them they say if it's good enough for the President, it's good enough for us. He doesn't wear one. God has my back. That's what they're saying.
ATLAS: Yes. Except, thing is I don't make decisions based on anecdotes of individual people like you just did. I'm sorry, but I just don't - I don't think way.
BURNETT: Wellm those are the people who are going to those rallies. I mean, I have to say I don't understand. I understand you're saying if you're in a desert by yourself, you're in a car by yourself, I get it. That's logical, but what I'm seeing in those pictures is not logical and I'm trying to understand as someone with the record, both as a medical professional and in public health, whether you've told the President, hey, guy, this isn't OK.
ATLAS: What I've said and I'll say it, again, is the President's policy is exactly right, wear a mask, that's his guideline, when you cannot socially distance and it is not the policy to mandate masks. I mean, I know how much clearer I can say it.
BURNETT: No, it isn't. I know I keep you going back and forth.
ATLAS: I can repeat it again if you'd like.
BURNETT: But, I mean, the hypocrisy of saying that you support his policy when his actions are completely against that, that he's showing at the moment that you and I happen to be talking is just extremely hard to swallow. You say you support his policy when everything he's allowing people to do around him is against his own policy, right? I mean, I feel like I'm kind of talking to a wall here. Maybe you feel the same way. But this is absurd.
ATLAS: I don't think you're a wall, no. But I do think that I articulated the President's policy, the policy is not absurd to think that he's going to literally control every single person and mandate a policy or a national mandate for a mask is absurd and it's not what America is all about. (Inaudible) those responsibility ...
BURNETT: So I guess the bottom line is, let me put it this way, Doctor.
ATLAS: ... they get educated and they get the guidelines.
BURNETT: OK. But I guess the bottom line is you're saying you do not think he needs to lead by example or stop holding these rallies, which go against his own policy? You think that that is OK.
ATLAS: I think the President does lead by example. I think he articulates the policy. I think he treats people like adults. I think he uses common sense and I'm completely comfortable with the President's policy as articulated multiple times, including multiple times by myself in this interview.
BURNETT: Yes.
ATLAS: I'm not sure how much more we can beat that dead horse but I'm happy to keep going.
BURNETT: Well, because his actions go against his policy as they are this very moment, so that's what I'm having trouble with. OK. One other thing I want to get to, because we have talked about this is the herd immunity issue, which I know you've talked a lot about, Doctor. It also comes up in this letter that you are threatening a defamation lawsuit over.
So the letter states that herd immunity from the virus is best achieved through use of a vaccine. The idea of herd immunity as something achieved through community transmission is an idea you've been linked to since joining the White House because of some prior comments and the President himself actually credited you with supporting that idea, basically let it rip through a population. Here's the President.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It would go away without the vaccine, George, but it's going to go away a lot faster with it.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS CHIEF ANCHOR: It would go away without the vaccine?
TRUMP: Sure, over a period of time. Sure, with time it goes away.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And many deaths.
TRUMP: And you'll develop like a herd mentality. It's going to be herd-developed and that's going to happen. That will all happen. But with a vaccine, I think, it will go away very quickly.
STEPHANOPOULOS: We got to take a quick break.
TRUMP: But I really believe we're rounding the corner and I believe that's strong.
STEPHANOPOULOS: As you know Dr. Fauci disagrees with that.
TRUMP: Well, I mean, but a lot of people do this do agree with me. You look at Scott Atlas. You look at some of the other doctors that are highly from Stanford, look at some of the other doctors. They think maybe we could have done that from the beginning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So he specifically credits you with herd immunity. You've said you're not pushing that idea on the President. He is though giving you credit. Have you told him that he's wrong?
ATLAS: He's not crediting me with herd immunity. I didn't invent that. It's a known biological phenomenon.
BURNETT: Right. But, I mean, your support of it.
ATLAS: What I can tell you is that - if I can finish - what I am telling you is that the President is saying many people understand herd immunity and understand that population immunity is a factor in the development of it. That is exactly why vaccines are given.
BURNETT: Yes.
[19:25:03]
And I would suggest to you and your readers that you educate yourselves and listen to people like Michael Levitt, the Nobel Prize winner from Stanford who's a structural biology professor or listen to Suenetra Gupta, one of the world famous epidemiologists from the U.K., listen to her interview from September 17th on the BBC.
I mean, you have to know the facts. You can't just say it's all about the science, not know the science, not understand the science and then accuse other people of not knowing the science. I suggest that you educate everybody, go do the reading and actually, by the way, the letter never articulated anything that I said. They were just saying what they said, but that's a separate point.
I think that there is something very clear here is that, first of all, no one is advocating pursuing a herd immunity strategy that has never been advocated to the President by me. He has never advocated that. He is though cognizant of the biology of what's going on, because he's actually listening to the science. There is a reason why New York City does not have cases after being completely devastated and then some thousands of people on the street.
BURNETT: Maybe there was so spread. But he said you'll develop herd immunity a lot of people agree with me ... ATLAS: When you explain herd immunity ...
BURNETT: ... look at Scott Atlas like let it rip since the beginning.
ATLAS: ... you are not advocating herd immunity.
BURNETT: You never said that.
ATLAS: I never seen anything like that, so you can set up a straw man argument and then attack the straw man argument. I like to do that with my kids quite a bit.
BURNETT: No, no, no, I just am giving you a chance to say that what said you said he didn't say what you're saying.
ATLAS: But that's not exactly what happen.
BURNETT: All right. Dr. Atlas, I appreciate your time.
ATLAS: No, no, he never said that. I'm sorry. But you have to be fair in an interview that's really a false what you just said.
BURNETT: Well, he said herd mentality, I guess, perhaps that's what we're disagreeing on. Thank you.
ATLAS: Yes, there is a herd mentality going on. I think you're right.
BURNETT: Thank you very much, Dr. Atlas.
And OUTFRONT next, you just heard the administration's timeline for a vaccine, Dr. Atlas, saying that April is what he has the facts on. Obviously, that goes in contrary to the CDC Director, so what adds up here? Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Dr. Jonathan Reiner join me next.
Plus, in-person early voting now underway. And as you can see in Virginia, the turnout is massive. So what does that say about what's happening on Election Day?
And President Trump turning on FBI Director Chris Wray, Wray said Russia is actively interfering in the election. Will Wray last?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:30:58]
BURNETT: All right. We have a breaking news right now. I want to go to Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, just to give you a chance here, Ruth Bader Ginsburg has passed away. And tell me what you know. We literally are just getting this right now, Supreme Court justice.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, well, that's tough to absorb. I'm just hearing it right with you, Erin.
We know obviously that she's had a long medical history, most recently of pancreatic cancer and a few procedures. We know that recently, I don't know -- I can't remember the exact time line now. A couple months ago, I believe, when she was hospitalized.
At that point there was concern that the type of therapy they were giving the former Supreme Court justice was more therapy to try and ameliorate the symptoms. I think it was clear at that point looking at her medical history that they knew this was an aggressive cancer that would be very difficult to treat.
So, tough news to hear. Pancreatic cancer, a very difficult cancer to treat under any circumstance. She's been dealing with it for some time. And as you know, Erin, she had been dealing with other medical issues. She had lung surgery last year as well. She had colon surgery sometime in the past.
So, she's been through a lot. I think this pancreatic cancer and the concern about the spread has been something that her doctors have been concerned about for sometime, Erin.
BURNETT: And I know, look, a headline that the whole country will stop to hear, a sad loss.
She, of course, was 87 years old. Obviously, as you said, pancreatic cancer complication is reason. 27 years she served on the court.
And, you know, in the past year, Sanjay, we do know she had been in and out of the hospital for cancer and other complications. You mentioned lung. But, you know, the last time we talked, you did think the most recent drug she was on was one that did not indicate there was much more they could do.
This timeline I think was more abbreviated than you had hoped for.
GUPTA: Yeah, I think more abbreviated than anybody hoped for. It's one of these situations where even after that therapy, you'll remember, she was out and about. We saw her being Ruth Bader Ginsburg and was always tough with her because she bounced back incredibly well after big operations. She had an operation on her lungs. She obviously had been dealing with the pancreatic cancer, had procedures for that.
Sometimes as a result of pancreatic cancer there are certain ducts around the gall bladder that can become obstructed and can be quite painful. She had treatment. It was the most recent hospitalization and the type of therapy that was given at that point which is not considered curative therapy, but more therapy to try to address symptoms.
I think that's what raised concern. I can't remember exactly when that was, again, but it was not that long ago. And talking to oncologists at that point, they're very concerned this was not going to be an effective treatment for the cancer itself, but just more to make her comfortable.
BURNETT: All right. So, Sanjay, please stay with me. Obviously this is now a moment in American history, a loss of a lion of the court, something that is going to change the balance of power here as well, possibly. I mean, this is an incredible moment that we are now seeing with the sad loss of Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She did die surrounded by her family at her home, so she was at home in Washington, D.C.
Jeffrey Toobin is with me on the phone.
Jeff, what's your immediate thoughts here when you hear this loss of RBG tonight?
[19:35:05]
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST (voice-over): -- starting with the enormous contributions that Ruth Bader Ginsburg has made to American law, she's one of the rare Supreme Court justices who would have been a major figure in American history if she had never served on the Supreme Court.
Her contributions to the rights of women under the constitution were epic. She was the Thurgood Marshall of the women's movement, of feminism. I mean, she argued the cases that created the modern American Constitution as it relates to women.
And then, of course, she served for more than two decades on the Supreme Court. She was the liberal and conservative times. She did not have the opportunity to write the majority of opinions that she would have wanted to write. But she was a powerful important voice for liberal values on the court.
And most -- and, you know, it's very important who replaces her because the court is now evenly divided. It was with four liberals with Ginsburg. But this is an opportunity for Donald Trump to seal conservative control for the current generation if he can get someone confirmed. And that, of course, is what he's going to try to do.
But the politics of it are very difficult and very complicated. And we're going to spend a lot of time talking about it between now and November. But at least today it seems like the right thing to do is to talk about what a giant this very tiny woman was.
BURNETT: Yes, indeed. As you point out, this is going to usher in one of the greatest political battles that we have seen with what President Trump is going to try to do, right? Because this could completely change the balance of power on this court.
The U.S. Supreme Court for a generation.
Joan Biskupic joins me now, our CNN legal analyst. Ariane De Vogue also joins me. She covers the Supreme Court.
And, Ariane, let me give you a chance. We do have comments here out of the other justices as they have just found out this news. What are you hearing?
ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER (via telephone): Well, the court has actually released a statement, as you know, saying she died tonight surrounded by her family at her home. Roberts said, he released a statement: Our nation has lost a jurist of
historic stature, we at the Supreme Court have lost a cherished colleague. Today, we mourn but with confidence that future generations, he said, will remember Ruth Bader Ginsburg as a tireless and resolute champion of justice.
Keep in mind it was just at the end of last term where she announced that she had been diagnosed back in February with this fifth bout of cancer. She usually had been quite forthcoming. This time she wasn't. She had tried one treatment.
She said she was going through treatments -- biweekly treatments to keep it at bay. I know she had been in contact with people -- in fact just yesterday, the National Constitution Center had had a ceremony to give her, virtually of course because of COVID and the ward, she actually submitted a letter. In that letter, she said that all the people who had praised her made her spirit soar.
So, of course, she was ill. I did talk to people since July who had been in contact with her. Keep in mind one more thing. Ruth Bader Ginsburg is one of those rare people who was famous before she took the bench for her work as a young lawyer changing the way gender discrimination was seen in the court. That's a rare feat for someone to be so famous even before taking the bench.
BURNETT: And, Joan, you know, this is -- she is the justice Americans know, right? She's the one who could go by RBG. She's the one who had that famous friendship, you know, across the aisle. She had become something much bigger, even, than just a Supreme Court justice.
JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER (via telephone): That's exactly right. She had an iconic stature as the Notorious RBG, someone who stood for rights who early on was one of only nine women in her law school class at Harvard, went on to fight for equal protections for women and then slowly built up this reputation on the Supreme Court.
You know, she was the second woman appointed, and for a while she was in the shadow of Sandra Day O'Connor, the first woman. But she really broke out, especially since 2010 when she became the senior liberal and just really found her voice. She was the one who kept the liberal wing together.
And I can't say you enough about what a loss it will be for so many people in America, but especially for the courts that have been fighting the conservative juggernaut on the court. But so many people know her. She would go from appearance to appearance with this bag saying that "I dissent." There's so many parts of her life that have become part of American culture, including "Saturday Night Live", the Kate McKinnon sketch. I think her loss will certainly be deep in America.
BURNETT: And, Jeff Toobin, she continued to write opinions and be on the bench even during these last few months, right, and the last stint of the court. People would think she was extremely sick. She still managed to have her voice heard. TOOBIN: I mean, Erin, this woman was less than 5 feet tall by the end,
way less than 100 pounds, and tougher than any NFL linebacker I have ever encountered. I mean, this woman had so many diseases and so many cancer, and she fought through them all. I don't believe she missed more than a handful of oral arguments during her tenure. This woman was determined, and she fought cancer for literally for decades. But, you know, it eventually caught up with her. She was 87 years old and that's old.
BURNETT: Sanjay, I believe you're still with me. When Jeff references she had been fighting cancer for decades, she had surgery for colon cancer all the way back in 1999. So, she had been fighting cancer, colon cancer, pancreatic cancer, literally for decades as she continued full steam ahead.
GUPTA: Yeah, it's incredible when you look at her health history and as Jeff was saying, how tough she was and coming back from those procedures. We were covering all of her medical therapies very closely. Some of these therapies are tough. You know, they just take a lot of out of you. Colon cancer, as you mentioned back in 1999. She was first diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 2009, 11 years ago. They thought that, you know, she had gotten through it. In the middle of it, she had lung cancer. That was 2018.
Then it was this recurrence of pancreatic cancer, Erin, that really was of concern. She tried immunotherapy. It didn't work. That's when she started the more palliative sort of therapies.
BURNETT: So, everyone stay with me.
If anyone is just joining, I want to update you on the sad news. The Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg has died at the age of 87. According to a statement, she was surrounded by her family. She died at home in Washington, and she died of complications from pancreatic cancer.
She was appointed to the Supreme Court in 1993 and served more than 27 years.
Jessica Schneider has a look at her life.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ruth Bader Ginsburg's rise from a humble Brooklyn neighborhood to the nation's highest court is a classic American story.
RUTH BADER GINSBURG, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: What is the difference between a bookkeeper in New York's common district, and a Supreme Court justice? Just one generation. My mother's life and mine bear witness. Where else but America could that happen.
SCHINEIDER: She was smart, tied for first in her class at Columbia Law School.
But in the late '50s and early '60s, the glass ceiling stood firm. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were three strikes against her. First, she
was a woman. Second, she was Jewish. Third, she had a young child.
SCHNEIDER: She turned to teaching law and fighting gender discrimination for the ACLU.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very much with the model of the NAACP's Legal Defense Fund led by Thurgood Marshall, she had the idea you had to build precedence step by step.
SCHNEIDER: In 1980, Ginsburg became a federal appellate court judge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So help me god.
GINSBURG: So help me God.
SCHNEIDER: Thirteen years later, she was named to the Supreme Court by President Clinton, the second woman on the bench. The first, Sandra Day O'Connor, was glad to see her.
[19:45:03]
SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR, FORMER SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: The minute Justice Ginsburg came to the court, we were nine justices. It wasn't 7 and then the women. And it was a great relief to me.
SCHNEIDER: As a justice, Ginsburg consistently voted in favor of abortion access and civil rights. Perhaps her best known work on the court, writing the 1996 landmark decision to strike down the Virginia Military Institute's ban on admitting women. She was also known for her bold dissents like the one she wrote when the court stopped the 2000 Florida recount, struck down the key provision of the Voting Rights Act, and ended the contraception mandate for some businesses under the Affordable Care Act.
GINSBURG: In our view, the court does not comprehend or is indifferent to the insidious way in which women can be victims of pay discrimination.
SCHNEIDER: In 2007, the high court ruled against Lilly Ledbetter, a factory supervisor at a tire plant in a high profile pay discrimination case. Ginsburg urged Congress to take up the issue in her dissent. Twenty months later, the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act was the first bill that President Obama signed into law.
After Justice John Paul Stevens retired in 2010, Ginsburg became the most senior of her liberal colleagues. But she didn't slow down. Stephen Colbert discovered that the hard way, trying to keep up with RBG's famously tough workouts.
STEPHEN COLBERT, COMEDIAN: I'm cramping working out with an 85-year- old woman.
SCHNEIDER: Ginsburg hired a trainer after treatment for colorectal cancer in the late '90s. In 2018, doctors treating the justice for broken ribs discovered cancerous growths on her lung. The surgery was successful but the recovery caused Ginsburg to miss oral arguments at the Supreme Court for the first time in her career. She was also treated several times for pancreatic cancer but always stayed up on court work.
Even after losing her husband of 56 years to cancer, Ginsburg was back on the bench the next morning.
GINSBURG: I love the work I do. I think I have the best job in the world for a lawyer. I respect all my colleagues and genuinely like most of them.
SCHNEIDER: Her best friend on the bench was the late Justice Antonin Scalia, her ideological opposite.
ANTONIN SCALIA, FORMER SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: What's not to like? Except her views on the law, of course.
SCHNEIDER: They shared a laugh about Ginsburg drinking wine before nods off at the State of the Union.
GINSBURG: I was 100 percent sober because before we went to the State of the Union, we had dinner together. And Justice Kennedy --
SCALIA: That's the first intelligent thing you've done.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHNEIDER: In her later years, she gained rock star status with millennials, thanks to social media.
GINSBURG: It was beyond my wildest imagination that I would one day become the Notorious RBG.
(MUSIC)
SCHNEIDER: The nickname was a play on the name of the late rapper, the Notorious BIG. There were books, clothing, tattoos, even a recurring SNL sketch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You just got Ginz-burned.
SCHNEIDER: There was a feature film "On the Basis of Sex", and a documentary produced by CNN. RBG was an unexpected box office hit and the gave the justice a platform to share her life long mission of gender equality.
GINSBURG: People ask me sometimes, when will there be enough women on the court? My answer is when there are nine.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: All right. Joining me now, Erin Carmen, coauthor of "The Notorious RBG."
And, Erin, you spent a lot of time researching her, spending time with her. What was she like?
ERIN CARMEN, COPAUTHOR, "NOTORIOUS RBG" (via telephone): You know, she had a mind like a field trap. She was somebody who remembered everything you ever spoke to her about.
One of her friends once said there were no words that were not preceded by thoughts. She was someone who devoted her entire life to the cause of gender equality, to civil rights, to the court as an institution. She was somebody with profound dignity and a profound sense of justice and what is right.
BURNETT: And how did she feel about her acronym?
CARMEN: You know, Justice Ginsburg was 80 years old when young people decided to crown her the Notorious RBG, and it was a total surprise to her. But she loves the connections she had with the public. She loved the energy of young people's admiration, and she loved to say she and Notorious BIG were both from Brooklyn.
[19:50:02]
BURNETT: So, Manu Raju joins me now, our congressional reporter, as well.
Manu, as you're getting on here, the immediate thing that is going to happen as -- is going to be what happens next here. We have 50 days until election, already the most polarized election in anyone's memory. Now you have the balance of the court.
What can happen between now and then? Would Mitch McConnell and President Trump be able to get a replacement justice, a conservative justice through between now and then?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's hard to see whether they can actually confirm someone before November election. It takes time to get a nominee processed, do the background check. Begin the paperwork and have that process done through the Senate by Election Day. That's difficult.
What is still possible, though, is for a nominee to get confirmed by the end of the year. So even after November 3rd, even if the Democrats take back the Senate, win the White House, there is going to be a post election lame-duck session between then and the end of the year. And at that point, Republican will still be in charge of the Senate. They will have a 53-47 majority.
And that 53-47 majority could most certainly confirm a nominee at that point presuming they go through the paperwork process. The vetting process goes normal, there is no Republican opposition. So, of course, we'll be in the same situation we were in previous nominees will the Republican state unite at that point? They can lose three Republicans and get someone confirmed. Four would mean they would not.
So, the big question is going to be whether or not Mitch McConnell decides to pursue, get someone confirmed by the end of the year. I would bet that he most certainly will try to do so. He's made very clear he does not want to leave any vacancy open. He made very clear that he wants to confirm someone even this election year even though he himself did not move forward on the nomination to Merrick Garland to fill the vacancy of Anthony Scalia when he died in the 2016 election.
BURNETT: Yes.
RAJU: McConnell said at the time because they let voters decide what happens in the 2016 election and now, he's saying the reason they move forward is because at the time there was a split Senate, a Republican Senate, Democrat in the White House, and the same party in the Senate and the White House. That situation is now different.
BURNETT: Yes.
RAJU: Which is why he's willing to move forward now.
So, expect the Republicans to try to confirm someone. We'll wait for official word given that everyone is just receiving this news just now, Erin.
BURNETT: Well, I mean, it is going to become one of the most crucial questions of our -- honestly, anyone voting now generation because this is now going to determine the entire future of the court, and this election is what that now rest upon.
Trevor Morrison, a former clerk for Ruth Bader Ginsburg joins me on the phone now, clerked with her from 2002 to 2003.
Trevor, what do you remember most about justice Ginsburg?
TREVOR MORRISON, CLERKED FOR JUSTICE GINSBURG (via telephone): Where to begin? She was, of course, a giant of American law. One of the emost important justices ever to serve on the court. She was an amazing boss, a tremendous supporter of her clerks and very warm woman who cared for us as people, as well as for us professionally. It was a huge honor to work for her.
BURNETT: What are some of the memories you have of her?
MORRISON: I remember when I first met her she would, you know, interview people who would apply to clerk for her and I had been warned that she has a very deliberate style of speaking and she would speak slowly and measured. I don't think I ever heard her use the word um or er. I speak very quickly. I had to make sure I didn't talk over her.
But from that first interview, you know, she at the same time really set me and others who would meet with her in that context at ease and working for her, what I remember beyond just the personal warmth was her total dedication to her job. She worked extremely hard, extremely long hours, late into the night virtually every day, had the highest standards in her work. And it was really inspiring, frankly, to see someone so dedicated to get the law right.
BURNETT: And, Erin, how much time did you get to spend with her? Did you also see the same thing and when did you see her humor? Right, the part of her that we all then started to see that made her, I guess, for lack of a better word a folk hero?
[19:55:08]
CARMEN: Well, I had the honor of Justice Ginsburg officiating my wedding in 2017 and recently upon the birth of my daughter, she spent me a note and a t-shirt making her an honorary grand clerk, although I did not have the honor of working for Justice Ginsburg. She was somebody that drew people in.
Even in her own reserved way, she's somebody who made you feel like you were part of her caring circle. In terms of her sense of humor, it was very subtle. You know, it was an honor to make her laugh. She seemed like a very serious person but part of the reason she for example, Justice Scalia got along is he constantly made her life and same thing of Marty Ginsburg, with whom she had an incredible marriage of true partnership that really rested on the fact he constantly made her laugh.
Her own humor was more subtle. She was someone who was always ready with a very subtle barb and you had to look for it in her writing. But she certainly appreciated family. She appreciated the institution of the court, and I'm just very struck at this moment by the fact that according to NPR, she dictated a statement to her granddaughter and said that her greatest wish is that she not be -- not her successor not be installed by this president. And I think it's a piece of her great reverence of the institution that she did not want this president to replace her.
So, she was a whole person, but at this point, what is really on my mind is just thinking about how much she wanted her legacy being defined by being replaced by Donald Trump, and that is a great tragedy at this moment.
BURNETT: So, Manu, let me ask you that. Erin is explaining that.
OK, so Manu is not with us. Let me layout what he said. He said there were a lot of questions but that this is something that if Donald Trump is reelected, Mitch McConnell would likely move to do during the lame-duck session.
And Gloria Borger is with me.
And, Gloria, Manu was laying out the math, right, that if you had Democrats take over the Senate, you know, Mitch McConnell could still push this through. He would have the votes until the New Year. And he would have the ability to do that.
So she's saying in this letter as Erin saying and NPR saying she dictated to her granddaughter she did not want her replacement to be installed by this president. That is something that very much may happen.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. I mean, Mitch McConnell with all due respect to justice Ginsburg is not going to pay much attention to her final wishes.
BURNETT: Yeah.
BORGER: I think this is a political moment for Mitch McConnell and for the Republican Party and you know that the president has put out a list just earlier this month about 20 people he would like to see nominated to the court, including two members of -- or three members of the United States Senate, Republicans and I think they're going to make the case. This isn't like Merrick Garland, and this will be something they want to go full speed ahead with.
BURNETT: Laura Coates, this is also making the point, the president has been advised on this. This is an event that he foresaw may occur during this tenure, and all the things you have to do ordinarily when something happens unexpected, in terms of vetting and checking, they are already down the road on in some of those cases.
LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They are down the road, Erin, and let me say how absolutely devastated and so many people are right now particularly myself because this is somebody that I've idolized throughout my legal career as many, many young women who are aspiring to become lawyers and have their sights on the dream that one day they will be able to have an argument in front of somebody of her stature and her charisma and her intellectual deal.
So, it's devastating to see that she is now no longer with us and I think this is a time which she was very prescient to realize just how quickly some would capitalize on her absence. She foresaw this previously, which is why she was often so quick to say things about her health and even delay in providing information. I think she saw the sharks who are constantly swimming around her thinking and hoping perhaps there would be a vacancy, not at the result of death but near time.
I think we're going to see a lot of hypocrisy that we saw on full display when Merrick Garland was somebody who was considered to be nominated, and Mitch McConnell said no, only a simple majority the Senate would have to have to be able to have a Supreme Court justice push through. There would be, of course, a confirmation hearing process.
But this is one of those moments when I think the nation is holding its breath to see if there remains integrity in the process by which you select somebody with life tenure where the buck stops on so many powerful issues.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much.
And thanks to all of you for joining us.
Our breaking news coverage continues now with Anderson.
