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Erin Burnett Outfront
Trump Dodges Questions On His Taxes, Biz Losses And Who He Reportedly Owes $300-Plus Million In Loans to; Interview With Rep. Lloyd Doggett (D-TX); NYT: Trump Wrote Off Consulting Fees And It Appears Ivanka Trump Received $747,622 Despite Being A Top Trump Org Exec; Trump Announces Plan To Deploy 150 Million Rapid Tests First Promoted By White House In August; Interview With Admiral Brett Giroir, Assistant Secretary For Health At HHS; Interview With Sen. Chris Coons (D-DE). Aired 7-8p ET
Aired September 28, 2020 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: May they rest in peace.
I'm Jim Acosta. Thanks very much for watching.
"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next, Trump dodges when it comes to his debts refusing to say who he reportedly owes hundreds of millions of dollars to. Why is he hiding this?
Plus, members of the Coronavirus Task Force; doctors Fauci, Redfield and Birx all raising concerns with the doctor who now has Trump's ear. Is he giving the President dangerous advice? Another members of the task force, Admiral Brett Giroir is OUTFRONT.
And just over 24 hours into the first presidential debate, one woman who faced off against Donald Trump joins me, Carly Fiorina, on what Joe Biden should expect. Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, who does Donald Trump owe more than $300 million to? Well, we don't know and that is a huge problem for all Americans. According to an incredibly detailed report in The New York Times, Trump is on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in loans. Most of them all coming due over the next few years.
Those debts could pose a grave conflict of interest and a national security threat. Because just to be blunt, they give unknown people power over Trump, people who could get him to do things that are deeply, deeply wrong for America. That is actually why, as a rule, the federal government generally doesn't give security clearances to people who have the kind of debt relative to their worth that Trump has. They just don't do it. You can't get a security clearance.
But he's got it. He has got the security clearance. He's the President. And just a short time ago, the President then dodged questions about this damning report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, who do you owe hundreds of millions of dollars?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Silence. Now look, this kind of thing is not acceptable to be a secret if you're the President of the United States. Yet Trump, of course, has kept one, refusing to let us see his taxes. So we simply do not know who the President of the United States owes hundreds of millions of dollars to.
All we have to go on are comments like this reportedly from Eric Trump in 2014. He said, "We don't rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia." And we just don't know how much all of this influences how President Trump is running the country.
So we did learn in this report that Trump's businesses are getting money from autocratic regimes in Turkey and the Philippines. And Trump isn't just making money from other countries, of course, he's making money off of us the people who actually do pay taxes.
"The Washington Post" reporting earlier this year that the Trump Organization is charging the Secret Service about up to $650 a night to stay at his hotels while protecting the President. These new documents obtained by The New York Times also reveal, this is why I emphasize those of us who pay taxes are paying for people to stay at Trump's properties, because Trump himself only paid $750 in federal taxes in 2016 and 2017.
It's one night for one secret service agent in one of his hotels. It is also less than the average tax payment for a household earning $20,000 a year in this country. Their average payment $1,100, his $750. And Trump has for years made it very clear, of course, that he is making way more than $20,000 a year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Part of the beauty of me is that I'm very rich.
I built a great company in a relatively short period of time with billions of dollars of net worth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And yet Trump has avoided paying taxes for years even though he's claimed it's the patriotic thing to do. It's the patriotic thing to do. Don't listen to me say that. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The tea party of people that love this country and love to work and they love to pay taxes and they want to pay more and more and they want to get this country going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Really Trump is not one of those people. So how does a person who says he is worth billions only pay $750 in taxes? Did he completely lie about his net worth? Is it fraud?
The American people deserve to know all of the details, because Trump was elected in no small part because he told the American people and many of them believed him that he was an incredibly successful businessman. And in fact, they bought into the very specific premise that he was going to run this country like he ran his businesses.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: What I am far and away greater than an entertainer is a businessman and that's the kind of mindset this country needs to bring it back.
Being a businessman is much different than being a politician, because I understand what's happening.
I'm a great businessman. I've made a fortune and I want to put that same thinking for the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, that thinking, his income shows losses upon losses upon losses described as chronic by The New York Times and hundreds of millions of dollars in debt.
[19:05:02]
No one wants that combination, hundreds of millions of dollars in debt and chronic losses for this country. So now, we know the truth and we also know that one of Donald Trump's tickets out of debt is the presidency itself.
As I reported last year, despite claiming that he removed his name as the owner of more than 500 major assets, he is still profiting off of the presidency. Listen to this key exchange for my documentary The Trump Family Business.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE TANGLIS, SENIOR RESEARCHER, PUBLIC CITIZEN: What he did was he took all of these ownership stakes, and transferred them to six different corporations and LLCs. So, on paper here, Trump can point to his 2017 disclosure, and say, I'm no longer listed as an owner, right? And he'd be right, on paper.
BURNETT: But not in reality, because Tanglis traced all six entities back to the President's Trust.
TANGLIS: Which is made to benefit him. He could take money from it any time.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: Money from it at any time as the sitting President of the
United States.
Kaitlan Collins is OUTFRONT live from Cleveland. And that, of course, is where the President will be tomorrow along with the former Vice President Joe Biden for their first debate. Kaitlan, Trump and his aides are denying this story, but they're not providing any documents to back up their denials. And of course, the New York Times has an incredible trove of very detailed information, nothing to back up the denials from the President though.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Instead, they've just been making arguments calling this a last minute political hit job before they take the debate stage tomorrow night. But even the President himself has been contradictory, Erin, in the way that he's responded to this by saying that this is illegally obtained information, but also saying that it's fake news. It really can't be both, Erin, and so either it's real or it's not and the President has not really been successful in responding to this.
And you saw how he only answered a few questions yesterday, just as this extensive expose had been published in The New York Times. And then today, he refused to take questions from reporters on it, but he is likely going to face some very tough questions on that tomorrow night. Because, of course, as you noted, it's not just the questions about what he paid and whether or not that was legal, it's also about with his portrayal that he sold to American voters.
And so today, he was lashing out at The New York Times taking issue with the fact that now there are questions about whether or not he's as successful as he told people for many years and is still very much a reason when I go to Trump rallies that people say is the reason they voted for him. But he also has questions that he still has not answered about the specifics here, about those years where he paid nothing at all, about the refund he got for $75 million when he did actually pay taxes.
And of course, other things, these personal expenses he used like $70,000 on hairstyling while he hosted the apprentice, something that was marked as a tax deduction. Of course, not really considered a business expense by most people, but also when he paid his daughter in consulting fees when she was also an employee of the Trump Organization, which she was being paid to consult.
So there are so many questions, Erin, and it is very likely and the team is preparing over at the White House for the President to face these questions here tomorrow night.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Kaitlan.
And I'm going to go straight now to Nick Akerman served as Watergate prosecutor and former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, along with Congressman Lloyd Doggett, a Democrat who sits in the House Ways and Means Committee, and our own Abby Phillip. Nick, I want to start with you. You investigated Nixon's taxes. You
see here hundreds of millions of dollars in debt, chronic losses, you say compared to Trump, Nixon was a quote rookie amateur. Why?
NICK AKERMAN, FMR. ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: He really was. He really was. What Nixon did was essentially backdate one deed for a gift of papers to the United States government. He did that when Congress had eliminated that deduction. He basically created a phony deed.
It looks like Trump has done a whole series of activities that could qualify as tax fraud, not tax avoidance. This is a very important distinction. The New York Times headline read Trump's tax avoidance, but there's a key difference with tax fraud. Tax avoidance is simply taking the tax code and getting the most deductions you can get under the code that's perfectly legal.
Tax fraud, however, is lying about what your income was, lying about what your deductions are and there's a couple of items that just stand out. In that report from The New York Times that really appear to go beyond tax avoidance.
I mean, the most glaring one is this one on the consulting fees, some $747,622 that The New York Times was able to tie into payments that went to Trump's daughter, Ivanka. There's no reason, legitimate reason, for her to get those consulting fees since she was being paid already as a Trump employee.
[19:10:01]
The only possible reason for doing this was somehow to move money around so that it wouldn't be taxed to Donald Trump, but would it effect go on Ivanka Trump's tax return who probably had certain losses that she could take against it. So in the end, the government gets zero dollars.
BURNETT: So ...
AKERMAN: All of this is - yes, sorry.
BURNETT: ... and Nick, but when you lay this out, I mean, I guess just a blunt question is, do you think Trump could end up going to jail if he is not re elected because of anything in here?
AKERMAN: No question about it and his daughter could go to jail too. Tax evasion is a five-year felony. It's a pretty serious crime and the more money that's stolen, the longer you go to jail for.
BURNETT: So you're saying if he loses it, he also, Ivanka Trump and others in his family could be at risk?
AKERMAN: Sure, absolutely. I mean, the only thing that's saving him at this point is the Department of Justice's guideline that says you can't indict a sitting president. Once he's no longer a sitting president, he is subject to being indicted. I mean, I think any decent prosecutor looking at this evidence will be
able to put together a pretty viable tax case. I mean, that's exactly what the DA's office is doing in New York at this point. I mean, this kind of shows you what they're looking at.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Nick, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
I want to go straight to Congressman Lloyd Doggett of Texas now. So Congressman, you just heard what Nick had to say, five-year felony. He thinks there could be much in here that could put the President in jail if he's not reelected. Do you think this is fraud?
REP. LLOYD DOGGETT (D-TX): Well, it's certainly very suspicious and we know that President Nixon turned to the American people and said he wanted to show that he was not a crook and so he disclosed to the Joint Committee on Taxation information that they explored and found that indeed he had underpaid his taxes.
President Trump's hidden everything. We now know from the great work The New York Times did, the kind of work you did last year, on the Trump Organization, that Trump hides everything he secrets away his tax returns, because he doesn't really believe in paying taxes.
And he lives off as a freeloader, he lives off the taxes that other people are paying. It's very, very appalling to see this happen, whether it is criminal tax fraud, I'll leave that to the prosecutors and I think there are prosecutors looking at it in terms of the state in the State of New York in Manhattan.
But I'm very concerned about the message that this sends to Americans who are out there struggling right now, who know that a president who pays $750 as his total contribution for the operation of our government, our national security, our domestic security, other vital needs, that that is just flat wrong.
BURNETT: One of the things is the Time points out and as we were pointing out, obviously, he still is benefiting from all of these things that he says he isn't. But they actually go through Trump properties. We know about the Trump International Hotel, the conferences and meetings at his Doral resort in Florida, Bank of America paid $7 million in 2015, 2016. A trade association paid over a million dollars in 2017 and 2018. This is while he was running and then as sitting president.
All that money was allowed to come in. What does that tell you, Congressman?
DOGGETT: Well, it tells me that maybe that's why things are so sorry here in Washington right now, because they sought special treatment, they got special treatment. He's so dependent on foreigners coming in and staying at his hotel. And you can tell from the data, we now have as a result of this great Time's investigative reporting, that that's because he needs the money.
He's getting money from Turkey, getting money from the Philippines right now and among the few of his profitable properties to make up for the losses that he has here. That plus as you noted earlier, this huge amount of debt, he calls himself the king of debt, and certainly he is. But he won't disclose which foreign entity he is in debt to and it's very troubling in terms our national security.
BURNETT: And do you have any idea to whom he is so indebted?
DOGGETT: All we can do is look at the kind of evidence you presented and no more than one occasion Trump's children have talked about Russia. They've talked about their friends in Saudi Arabia. We know Trump just bragged about protecting the killers in Saudi Arabia, the Prince, who dismembered a journalist.
That's the kind of thinking that's involved here. I just believe he's doing what he told the American people he would do. He's running our country like his business and he may well run it into the ground. We see these 10s of thousands of families that are harmed from his mismanagement of the pandemic. I think they're seeing Trump's business sense and operation and we're all suffering from it.
[19:15:08]
BURNETT: Congressman Doggett, I appreciate your time.
And I now want to go to Abby Phillip. So Abby, when you hear all this, the context here is that there's a debate tomorrow night. So today, when the President is facing questions from reporters like you, he just walks away and he doesn't answer it, not going to be able to do that tomorrow. How big of a role do you think this will play in the debate?
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, he's not going to be able to walk away. But I do think that we have some sense of how he's going to answer any questions that come up about this and I think there will be questions about this. The President and his allies have already started trying to turn this back on Joe Biden by bringing up unrelated conversations about Hunter Biden's business dealings or what have you.
And it's going to be an effort to deflect, which is typically what we see from President Trump. But what will be interesting to see is whether he does what he did four years ago with Hillary Clinton, which is to say, it makes me smart to not pay taxes. Will he own up to trying to avoid as much tax burden as possible and how will that play on this debate stage when Joe Biden is running against him in this frame of Scranton versus Park Avenue.
It's not clear to me that now that the American public knows exactly how little he did pay, whether that argument is going to fly.
BURNETT: And Abby, of course, I know if Chris Wallace, who will do the moderating, an excellent and incisive questioner, ask the question about to whom the President is indebted, I would imagine he'll try to dodge it. But yet the question has taken on such importance, it's very difficult to just not give an answer to that, isn't it? PHILLIP: Yes. And I do think that the fact that he has been so
studious about keeping this information from the American public is what makes it such a pressing question. It is going to be hard for him to explain why he is fighting so hard to keep this information away from the American people, why he doesn't choose to simply vindicate himself if it is, in fact, all just fake news.
He could simply just release the documents and put it to rest, but he refuses to do that and that in and of itself, now, just like it was four years ago, seems to indicate that there's something he's trying to hide.
BURNETT: And Joe Biden, of course, is going to try to attack Trump with these in what ways, are you hearing?
PHILLIP: You're going to hear a lot about these people in everyday America, in Middle America, in places like Scranton, Pennsylvania, and in the Midwest who pay more taxes than President Trump. It won't be hard to find those people because most Americans, the average American pays 16 times more than President Trump did in the two years that he was president and paid $750.
So you're going to hear so much about that from Joe Biden, but I also don't think he's going to dwell on this. I think they know, this has been thoroughly litigated in the media for many years at this point.
BURNETT: All right. Abby, thank you very much.
And next, Trump today announcing plans to distribute 150 million rapid coronavirus tests. These are tests the administration of course announced back in August. Trump's point man on testing is my guest, OUTFRONT next.
Plus, a new book by a former top Trump campaign manager claims Trump wanted Ivanka as his running mate. He actually even pulled the idea. And the number of Senate Democrats say they will not meet with the President's Supreme Court pick, is that a big mistake?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:22:01]
BURNETT: Tonight, Dr. Anthony Fauci sounding the alarm on rising cases of coronavirus as we head into flu season.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: There are states that are starting to show uptick in cases and even some increase in hospitalizations in some states. And I hope not but we very well might start seeing increases in deaths.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. That sober warning coming as doctors Fauci and CDC Director Robert Redfield raised concerns about a controversial doctor who's growing increasingly influential in the White House. In just a moment, I'm going to speak to Admiral Brett Giroir who is on the Coronavirus Task Force. He is heading up the nation's testing effort.
But first, Alexandra Field is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It honestly looks like it's business as usual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Pre COVID Florida in a post COVID world packed bars and restaurants all weekend in South Florida just days after Republican Governor Ron DeSantis dropped virtually all coronavirus restrictions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's going to have huge impact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FIELD (voice over): No more fines for people who refuse to wear a mask. The State's new daily case count has been well below its July peak for more than a month, but the positivity rate remains over 10 percent. Across the country, new cases are on the rise in 21 states. In just the last few days, at least seven states saw their highest weekly averages for new cases. With Wisconsin recording its highest single day increase over the weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE PARISI, COUNTY EXECUTIVE, DANE COUNTY, WISCONSIN: One of the biggest challenges we have is that some people just don't believe that this is a serious disease even to this day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FIELD (voice over): In New York more than a thousand new cases on Saturday the most since June, a major cluster in Brooklyn and Queens forcing the city to decide whether to bring back restrictions in impacted neighborhoods.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): It is very targeted and very focused in those clusters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FIELD (voice over): All this as the nation's top infectious disease expert, Dr. Anthony Fauci, says the White House is pivoting away from daily Coronavirus Task Force meetings. And as new task force member and top virus adviser to the President Dr. Scott Atlas was reportedly criticized by another top official.
NBC News reporting that CDC Director Robert Redfield was overheard on the phone speaking about Dr. Atlas on a commercial flight saying, "Everything he says is false." And going on to suggest that Atlas has provided the President with misleading data.
The CDC has responded with a statement saying Redfield and Atlas have different positions on those issues and agree on many other issues. Dr. Fauci weighed in with this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: Well, most are working together. I think, you know who the outlier is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FIELD: The CDC has issued a statement saying the difference in opinion between Atlas and Redfield centers on three different issues, mask efficacy, youth infection and herd immunity. The White House is responding tonight by saying that the President consults with a number of different experts who sometimes disagree and that he uses all the information available to set policy. Beyond that, the White House statement continues by insisting that everyone recommend the use of a mask including the President, when social distance is not possible, Erin.
[19:25:05]
BURNETT: All right. Alexandra, thank you very much.
And I want to go now to Admiral Brett Giroir, the Assistant Secretary for Health at the Department of Health and Human Services and, of course, has been heading up all the testing effort in this country. So Admiral, I really appreciate your taking the time and I know today you have a testing announcement, a hundred million tests to states and you were really earmarking that's for schools and 50 million to protect vulnerable communities, a lot of that going to nursing homes.
I do know the administration first announced in August that the rapid test would be distributed and now we're learning the distribution has indeed begun this week. Why did it take so long or was this always the plan?
ADM. BRETT GIROIR, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR HEALTH, HHS: So thank you for having me on. This was a real step forward in our in our testing. This doesn't happen overnight. This took planning for months to actually get this BinaxNOW rapid point of care test.
The difference between August and now is just that they had to be assembled. The day after the authorization was issued by the FDA, we signed the contract. That doesn't happen overnight. That's with weeks of planning to purchase 150 million. The first ones off the shelf went to disaster victims in California, Oregon, Texas and Louisiana, as well as nursing homes in areas of high community spread, assisted living, home health care agencies, as well as HBCUs, historically black colleges and universities and the tribes.
So now that the production is up, we're able to start distributing to the states this week, 6.5 million to governors to use as they deem fit, hopefully, for schools and other critical infrastructure.
BURNETT: So on that front, on schools, there are approximately, call it 56 million K to 12 students in the United States and a lot of them aren't in school right now. But to get them in school confidently, obviously you can burn through a hundred million tests really fast. Dr. Ashish Jha, who's one of the nation's top testing experts who, of course, I know you know well and William Haseltine, who's credited for his groundbreaking breaking work on HIV/AIDS just spoke out about this testing plan that you announced today. Here's what they said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: We need a lot more if we want to be able to test schools, colleges, workplaces. So I see this as a step forward, but not where we need to be.
WILLIAM HASELTINE, FMR. PROFESSOR, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL & HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: It's inadequate even at its present level. It has to be 10 times, 20 times that level to begin to make a real difference and putting a cap on this pandemic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Ten, 20 times step forward but not where we need to be. Do you agree or do you think they're wrong?
GIROIR: So look, we're going to continue to develop the ecosystem and have more and more tests. We are doing that. We've used every authority under the government. We've used all the technical assistance we can. Right now we have 50 million of these a month.
I absolutely disagree with the conclusion that these can't make a significant difference, because they can. I was on the governor's call today almost - well every governor that spoke said this was a game changer. Just imagine your children in school, if somebody sniffles in the classroom, do they have COVID or don't they have COVID, you can get a test within 15 minutes, right here with a very high sensitivity.
If they have COVID, you can diagnose them, isolate them and do contact tracing. If they don't, you don't send them home for days and parents worrying about whether they're exposed because you know right then and there. That's the way we help keep schools open.
So we're gonna continue to increase testing, but to say that these won't make a significant difference is just not true. That's not the case at all. This is a step forward, a game changer.
BURNETT: So a game changer, OK, so when you say 150 million, I know it's 6.5 million this week, you're gonna ramp up to 10 million a week, when does it become a lot bigger per week? When do you start getting to - and I don't know what your number is, Admiral, but when do you start getting to bigger numbers, 50 million a week or is that not yet on the horizon?
GIROIR: So 50 million a week is not yet on the horizon. We have pushed all capability throughout the country to be able to get 50 million of these a month. Now, this is not the last technology we're investing in. But right now 50 million of these a month, in most places, doubles or triple their testing capacity, so this is a very significant advancement.
But again, we're going to see new things coming. But no question, this is what people have been looking for, a simple $5 a test point of care, it is state-of-the-art, it's highly sophisticated and it's going to yield results for our school children, our infrastructure and our vulnerable and HBCUs, the tribes and our elderly Americans.
BURNETT: So this all comes, of course, as there's an incredible focus on the corona task force itself. And I know that obviously you have focused on your role. The CDC Director Robert Redfield today though reportedly overheard during a phone call in public talking about Dr. Scott Atlas, the newer member of the White House Coronavirus Task Force who got a lot of time with the President.
Redfield was saying, "Everything he says is false," of Dr. Atlas. And today Dr. Fauci hinted that Atlas is an 'outlier'. That was the word he used in the task force.
We've reported Dr. Birx has concerns about his views as well, specifically on masks.
[19:30:03]
So, several of your colleagues have very serious concerns about him and his influence on the president. Do you share that concern?
GIROIR: So, Erin, all of the scientists and doctors on the task force, we do work together. We agree on the great majority of things.
But whether it's Dr. Atlas and Dr. Birx or me and Dr. Fauci or Dr. Redfield, there is some disagreement. There is a diversity of opinions.
I think that's very important because science is not black and white. Things are not 100 percent or zero percent. There's often shades of gray. And it's very important that we have an open and honest debate.
The vice president uses a phrase all the time, "iron sharpens iron", and we have a lot of iron getting sharpened here and I think that's a very good thing.
So, no, everybody on the task force contributes. There is a wide diversity of opinion. We all work on all the issues and we're just here to give vice president and the president the best possible advice and he will take the advice that he sees fit for policy.
BURNETT: So, so -- and this is I guess the reason I ask this question. I understand what you're saying. Shades of gray and disagreement and that is part of the scientific method and the process. I get that.
But there are some things upon in which in this whole discussion, there are not areas of gray, right, and one of the basic ones is use of masks. You've made your view on masks clear.
Dr. Atlas's point of view on it is different. And I had an exchange with him on that exact topic. It happened to be we were talking while the president was live walking out without a mask at a rally in Minnesota. Very people there were wearing masks.
And I just wanted to play part of the exchange for you, Admiral Giroir. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SCOTT ATLAS, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE MEMBER: The president sets the policy and I have agreed with his policy which is wear masks when you cannot social distance.
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: But they're not doing that -- they're not doing that there.
ATLAS: Yeah. But, you know, we don't put them in prison for not wearing a mask. I'm sorry. I don't think he is going to be willing to do that.
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: But he's -- but he is holding a rally with them there.
The bottom line is you do not think he needs to lead by example or stop holding these rallies, which go against his own policy. You think that that is okay.
ATLAS: I think the president does lead by example. I think he articulates the policy. I think he treats people like adults. I think he uses common sense, and I'm completely comfortable with the president's policy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Admiral, just to state the obvious, the president does not lead by example when it comes to wearing mask. Are you on the same page as Dr. Atlas on the mask issue?
GIROIR: So I think I've been very clear. The surgeon general has been very clear. You've pointed out the statistics of cases growing in some states.
We are not out of this yet. Probably as many as 80 percent or 90 percent of Americans can still be affected, infected with this virus, and wearing a mask just like this one is one of the most important public health measures that you can do. You need to wear a mask when you can't physically distance because it will protect others from getting infected from you and it does provide a degree of protection to yourself.
You got to watch into crowded spaces, and then you also have to wash your hands.
I just want to emphasize and I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to say again that we can save thousands and thousands of lives just by wearing a mask when we can't physically distance.
BURNETT: And, Admiral Giroir, one quick question before we go.
As a parent, yu obviously are an ICU pediatrician. People may not know that. But, you know, Dr. Fauci said we're not going to know young children's' role in getting or spreading this until December.
Do you have a sense right now children under 10, do you think, they spread it as much as others or not sure?
GIROIR: So, you know, there's evidence on both ways. There was a meta analysis published in one of the JAMA journals just today that looked at 32 different studies. And the overwhelming majority of the evidence says children don't really -- children under 10 or 12 are much less likely to get and spread the virus. That doesn't mean they can't because they can.
So -- but you would never make a decision based on that, right?
BURNETT: Right, I understand.
GIROIR: Because they are less likely to spread the virus, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be protected and we shouldn't do all the things we're doing like provide testing to the schools to make sure that everyone is as safe as possible.
The evidence is emerging. Once you're adolescent, you're more like an adult. Once you're -- when you're under 10, 11, 12, you are more like a child which is sort of a different category of spreading and being able to get infected from other people.
BURNETT: Admiral, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
GIROIR: Thank you so much.
BURNETT: All right. And I want to go straight to Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
So, Sanjay, loud and clear on masks. Loud and clear. Obviously could have been an awkward moment but he had his mask ready and was -- he wanted to make a point of view clear there.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. I watched your interview with Scott Atlas last week, and then obviously just now with the admiral.
[19:35:04]
It's so interesting to watch, I think, as a scientist and the person who is trying to talk about the medical reporting part of this because everyone is bending themselves into pretzels not to criticize each other and to at least try and present this united front. Clearly, as you pointed out there are significant differences. Admiral Giroir is very clear on masks as every other person on the task force except for Dr. Atlas.
I mean, what President Trump has done if it were the clinical world is he has gone doctor shopping, right? People go doctor shopping because they want to find a doctor who will give them the medicine or treatment no one else will or recommends. You know, tell them what they want to hear. Whether Dr. Atlas realizes it or not, that's the role he's playing.
I'm sure he is a smart guy. The role is he is carving out that space where he is basically telling his patient what the patient wants to hear.
BURNETT: Right, though, I do find it extremely interesting that Admiral Giroir, you know, he didn't -- he slammed him without directly doing it. He was very gracious about it but he made it very clear he disagrees.
So my question to you is what about Dr. Atlas? Because now we have Deborah Birx, right, the reporting she is distressed about his role. You have Dr. Fauci calling him an outlier. You have Robert Redfield reportedly overheard on the phone call live talking about Atlas, saying, quote, everything he says is false.
I mean, these are stunning things to be saying about someone who is, you know, a Stanford -- you know, was a Stanford neuroradiologist. What is your reaction?
GUPTA: My reaction is you have the world's best, not just the country but the world's best infectious disease doctors at your disposal who from the start could have helped really shape this pandemic into a different trajectory but were not listened to. That's why we're a mess that we're in.
And now, you know, this one doctor who again, you know, it makes no benefit to disparage him. I am sure he as very smart guy but these are the world's best infectious disease doctors. This is not like going and getting a second opinion, should I get my knee replaced or not? Should I take that biotic or not?
BURNETT: Right.
GUPTA: They are taking very, very risky decisions, not even their risk. This isn't about the president's health. This is the health of the nation.
So, my reaction is seething outrage, right? I mean, here you have the world's best doctors who were telling you what to do, yes there may be a variety of different opinions on smaller things but the big issues you raised, masks, herd immunity, things like that --
BURNETT: Right.
GUPTA: -- there is no sort of -- there is a consensus on this. And we're not hearing that.
BURNETT: No, no. Again, that is not where there is any nuance or shades of gray, right? Those are where there are answers right and wrong. OK, thank you very much, Sanjay. I appreciate it.
GUPTA: You got it.
BURNETT: Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
And next, one former candidate who has debated Trump knows Biden needs to be ready for anything.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARLY FIORINA (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think women all over this country heard very clearly what Mr. Trump said.
DONALD TRUMP, THEN-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think she's got a beautiful face and I think she's a beautiful woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And undecided voters react to "The New York Times" story on Trump's taxes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm struggling. I'm struggling this year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:42:11]
BURNETT: Tonight, Vice President Ivanka Trump. "The Washington Post" reporting a new book by the former deputy campaign manager for Trump, Rick Gates, claims that President Trump wanted Ivanka as his running mate in 2016 and actually even polled the idea twice. According to "The Post", the book quotes Trump as saying she's bright, she's smart, she's beautiful, and the people would love her.
OUTFRONT now, Carly Fiorina, former Republican presidential candidate in 2016. She has endorsed Joe Biden for president.
Carly, I really appreciate your time.
What is your reaction to this claim that Trump considered his daughter as vice president? And it wasn't just a light, silly thing. It was a serious thing. It was something he polled and he thought would be a good idea.
FIORINA: Well, I'm struck that it is surprising news. It's laughable news. But, you know, honestly, I think given the jobs he has given his children in the White House, jobs for which they are not particularly qualified, I don't think this is a big stretch honestly. BURNETT: It's a sort of an incredible thing to say. You know, when you
think about just what that would mean for nepotism.
You know, when this Ivanka Trump -- yeah, go ahead.
FIORINA: Erin, just for a moment, I mean, Jared Kushner is in charge of Mideast peace and the COVID response. He's not qualified for that job. That is the definition of nepotism.
Ivanka Trump, I'm sure she's a very lovely woman, but her as a stand- in for working women when she has lived in the lap of luxury and had full-time care for her children ever since she gave birth, I'm sorry. She is not qualified to talk about the struggles of working women.
So, clearly, qualifications are not why he has them in these very important White House jobs.
BURNETT: So he paid her, we understand, or she received seven -- sorry let me be clear -- she appears to have received about $750,000 in, quote-unquote, consulting fees from her father. And he deducted that from his taxes according to documents obtained by the "New York Times." So, you know, that would enable him to pay, you know, less in taxes just to put that in English.
Former Watergate prosecutor Nick Akerman at the top of this program said there's, quote, no question that Donald Trump or Ivanka Trump could go to jail for tax evasion for this adding, it is a five-year felony. Note that she was already being paid by the Trump Organization to do the job for which he then paid her a consulting fee and then deducted it.
Do you think that he could really be in trouble over this?
FIORINA: Well, I think if he's committed tax fraud, absolutely. I mean, clearly, the state of New York is investigating business fraud of some kind. We don't know exactly what.
And what's revealed in these tax returns are not only the opportunity for tax fraud as the previous guest commented on.
[19:45:05]
But at the very least, what's revealed is he's a terrible businessman. His businesses have endured loss after loss after loss. He's been through bankruptcy after bankruptcy.
It also reveals that he's in a high degree of financial distress and that this financial distress has been going on for sometime. And that's not surprising either, but it is revealing the depth and the length of that financial distress, and the terrible way he has managed these businesses.
It reminds me I was asked in 2015, the one word I would use to describe Donald Trump and my answer was, entertainer. And the journalist said not a businessman? I said, no. This is a failed businessman. And I think we see that now with these tax returns. BURNETT: So when you ran against him in the Republican primary, he
attacked your career as a businesswoman, right? That was his thing, right, that he was going to run the country --
FIORINA: Yeah.
BURNETT: -- like he ran his businesses.
And here's some of what he said about you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: She ran Hewlett-Packard into the ground.
She did a terrible, terrible, terrible job at Hewlett-Packard.
She can't run any of my companies. That I can tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And now we see he's in massive debt, and chronic losses.
FIORINA: Well -- yes. And see, here's the thing -- in business, there are numbers. There's data. It's publicly reported, if you read a public company.
And so, my results were clear and I'm proud to run on them and to stand on them.
He has hidden his results all this time. And now we know why, because numbers don't lie unless you're a liar and a cheat, which it may turn out he is.
But when you look at these tax returns, remember that these tax returns are how he is presenting his business to the IRS. So this is arguably the best face he can put on it. And his business is a failure.
BURNETT: Quickly before we go, the debate is tomorrow. You obviously have been on the debate stage with him before. He attacked your appearance in a "Rolling Stone" interview. It came up at the debate.
Here's part of the exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FIORINA: I think women all over this country heard very clearly what Mr. Trump said.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: I think she's got a beautiful face, and I think she's a beautiful woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Moments like that you can't prepare for. It just happens.
What do you say to Joe Biden? Because no doubt the president will try to do the same to him tomorrow.
FIORINA: He has to stay in control. Trump insults or he ingratiates. Joe Biden has to stay in control.
He cannot respond to everything Donald Trump says. He must respond to what he chooses to respond to and put his message out to the American people, which is, this is what a president looks like. This is what a president sounds like. That is Joe Biden. And this is what a president acts like.
BURNETT: All right. Carly Fiorina, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.
FIORINA: Thanks, Erin.
BURNETT: So how are voters reacting to the bombshell report in the "New York Times" that President Trump paid zero federal income taxes for years, chronic losses, hundreds of millions of dollars of debt?
Martin Savidge is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the Marietta Diner in suburban Atlanta, the bombshell of Trump's tax returns isn't on the menu but it is on the minds of voters.
IRA PENCE, TRUMP SUPPORTER: That's just a matter of how he runs his business.
SAVIDGE: The latest polling in Georgia before the news broke showed the race between Trump and Joe Biden a dead heat. Could the revelation Trump only paid $750 in federal income taxes in 2016 and 2017 tilt the balance in Biden's favor?
(on camera): Would that make an impact on your judgment of the man?
PETER DUFRESNE, TRUMP SUPPORTER: The man -- the man is not perfect. I know that. I'm not perfect. But I think he's accomplished a whole lot.
SAVIDGE (voice-over): One look at Ira Pence tells you who he supports. And he thinks Trump's tax news is a good thing.
PENCE: I just think that's wonderful. I work very hard at trying to pay as little taxes as legal.
SAVIDGE: And waitress Linda Trapani doesn't believe the news at all.
LINDA TRAPANI, TRUMP SUPPORTER: And here we go again. Once again, it's -- first of all, it's from "The New York Times."
SAVIDGE: But at a nearby booth, Nancy Macharia is furious
NANCY MACHARIA, BIDEN SUPPORTER: I was shocked.
SAVIDGE: Originally from Kenya, she is a software engineer who says she worked three jobs to get through college and points out Trump often depicts immigrants as the ones cheating the system.
MACHARIA: We have a lot of immigrants in this country that work very hard for such little money for such (INAUDIBLE) and they pay their taxes.
SAVIDGE: Trump's campaign communications director calls the "New York Times" reporting on the president's tax returns completely inaccurate.
[19:50:06]
Retired business teacher Lamurie Adams says Trump's tax returns prove he is no financial genius.
LAMURIE ADAMS, BIDEN SUPPORTER: It's a lie, and I worry about that because of our young people. I don't know what they think.
SAVIDGE: Polls have shown Trump support from white suburban women in 2020 is not what it was four years ago.
But Kathryn Coffee is staying the course, unfazed by reports Trump lost tens of millions of dollars in bad business deals.
(on camera): Doesn't this prove he's not the successful businessman he's claimed to be?
KATHRYN COFFEE, TRUMP SUPPORTER: You can look at it that way. I don't think that would be a measure that he's not a successful businessman.
SAVIDGE (voice-over): Deanna Sloan (ph) is something remarkably rare among Georgia voters, undecided.
The polling suggestions undecided voters to be in the single digits.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm struggling, I'm struggling this year.
SAVIDGE: Sloan says Tuesday's presidential debate could be the deciding factor.
As for Trump's taxes --
(on camera): It doesn't appear that this is necessarily a deal breaker for you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I wish I could say that it was but it's not.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SAVIDGE: You know, it's interesting, Erin, of the many people we talked to for this story, almost no one was surprised by the information contained in the reporting of Trump's tax returns. His supporters say it's fake news or insignificant. Those who are opposed to the president say, well, they already suspected he had financial difficulties. After all, he's fought so hard to keep the tax returns from going public -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. All right, Martin, thank you very much.
And next, we got just about 24 hours until the first presidential debate. The Trump campaign coming out with a warning to his allies: do not under estimate Joe Biden.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:55:45]
BURNETT: You're looking inside the hall in Cleveland where President Trump and Joe Biden will face-off tomorrow in the first of three presidential debates.
The Trump campaign raising expectations tonight for Biden's debate performance. I guess they want to, you know, set that bar high, telling congressional allies, quote: Do not underestimate his abilities in a debate. This may be where he shines and, of course, they're trying to set the stage for -- well, of course, he should. He's got 47 years of practice.
OUTFRONT now, Senator Chris Coons, longtime friend of Biden. He's been advising the former vice president, of course, as he gets ready for this crucial debate.
You know, I don't know if you saw the piece we had out of Georgia, single digit there of voters undecided, probably like much as it is across the country. There aren't a lot of people to win over but they're in really important places.
And President Trump is showing himself to be an unpredictable debater, right? You know, we played a moment ago, Carly Fiorina. He does strange things sometimes. They can get in your head.
How should Biden respond?
SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Well, Erin, great to be on with you again.
As we know, Donald Trump had a decade as a successful reality TV star and he is a master of spectacle, of distraction, of the personal attack of the eighth grade bullying jab and of dramatically changing the subjects.
So what I expect tomorrow night is that Joe is going to have to parry and fend off a whole series of offensive and baseless personal attacks and keep reminding us what's at stake, that this debate really isn't about Donald Trump and the ways he is alarming or unconventional or distressing to listen to or have as president, but it's really about us.
It's about the American people and that Joe Biden has the experience, the compassion and the character to get us out of this pandemic and this terrible recession that unlike Trump who divides us as a nation, Joe has the spirit and the capability to bring us together as a country. BURNETT: So part of the topics, of course, will be the Supreme Court
and on that front just a moment ago, your colleague on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senator Kamala Harris, vice presidential candidate, of course, was asked if she would meet with Judge Amy Coney Barrett.
Here's what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm sure that's going to happen. Yeah, let's see how everything works out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. That seems like a pretty basic thing that she'll meet with her. You're also going to meet with Judge Barrett. Several Democrats, though, including Minority Leader Chuck Schumer say they won't.
Are they making a mistake?
COONS: Well, frankly, what they are trying to do is to highlight just how unconventional, how unacceptable this rush in partisan process is. And I understand that.
Frankly, it's a tough choice but between giving some legitimacy to something we shouldn't be doing, which is proceeding with this highly partisan nomination with just 36 days to go before an election where more than half the states are voting, but I think to miss the opportunity to highlight for the American people the consequences of Judge Barrett's confirmation hearing would be a missed opportunity.
BURNETT: Yeah. So let me ask you one thing to this point. I understand your point about the timing.
But yet, Noah Feldman, a Harvard law professor, obviously, you know, he testified in favor of Trump's impeachment last year. He wrote an op-ed that he's known Barrett for more than 20 years. She's more than qualified.
He says, quote: It is better for the republic States to have a principled, brilliant lawyer on the bench, referring to her, he calls her brilliant and principled, than a weaker candidate. That's Barrett.
What do you say to that? Is it possible that forgetting that the timing is unfortunate, she's qualified and capable and deserves her spot?
COONS: Well, what I would say, frankly, is that this isn't about her qualifications. It's about the motivation of Donald Trump in picking her.
There are two things that president Trump said he needed her on this court to do, one is to decide any election-related dispute in his favor and the other is to overturn the Affordable Care Act. The Affordable Care Act, as you know, hangs by a thread.
It was Chief Justice Roberts who decided a 5-4 decision upholding its constitutionality now eight years ago, and Judge Barrett criticized that decision. That's on the docket of the Supreme Court just a week after the election.
And, Erin, as you well know, Justice Ginsburg dedicated her life to gender equality and the Affordable Care Act, prevents insurance companies from discriminating against women.
BURNETT: All right. Senator, thank you very much for your time. A lot more to talk about her. I know we'll have that time as these hearings commence. Thank you for your time tonight.
COONS: We will.
BURNETT: And thanks very much to all of you for yours.
"AC360" starts now.
