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Erin Burnett Outfront
House Republican Liz Cheney Not Backing Down As Trump And Allies Try To Purge Her From GOP; Rudy Giuliani Getting Legal Advice From Allen Dershowitz; Three Arrested During Protests After Funeral Of Andrew Brown; Humanitarian Catastrophe In COVID-Ravaged India, Cries For Help Go Unanswered, Screaming From ICU. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired May 03, 2021 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:00]
RYAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We've reached out to Womble for comment. We have not heard back. Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Ryan Todd on the scene for us in North Carolina. Thanks very much. And to our viewers, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM. "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next, Congresswoman Liz Cheney defiant, staring down Donald Trump saying what she did on January 6th is a line that cannot be crossed. But is she the one who's out of step with the GOP? Plus Rudy Giuliani getting legal advice from Allen Dershowitz. How Trump could be part of Giuliani's defense strategy.
And President Biden says it's time for the wealthy to pay their fair share. But what is fair? John Kasich verses Barney Frank on OUTFRONT. Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening, I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, Cheney versus Trump. The number three House Republican Liz Cheney is not backing down as Trump and his allies try to purge her from the GOP.
Sources telling CNN that Cheney today met behind closed doors at the Republican conference and tore into the former president and his lies about the election saying, "We can't be a cult of personality, we can't whitewash what happened on January 6th to perpetuate Trump's big lie. It is a threat to democracy. What he did on January 6th is a line that can't be crossed."
These are simple facts but it is a stunning remark coming from the highest ranking Republican woman in the House. And -- and just by saying those facts she could lose her leadership position at the least.
A senior House Republican telling CNN that Cheney could lose a vote and be kicked out of leadership because she continues to take on Trump. Her comments have left the House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy quote, furious of Cheney, according to just once source.
But Cheney earlier today came out on Twitter saying, "The 2020 presidential election was not stolen. Anyone who claims it is was spreading the big lie, turning their back on the rule of law and poisoning our democratic system.
Anyone who is, well right now that person is the former president because he put out a statement just this morning; this was what she was responding to. He said, "The fraudulent presidential election of the 2020 will be from this day forth known as THE BIG LIE.
I just want to call out here just something really simply, having known Trump for 20 years; he is doing what he succeeded at doing his own life, projecting his own reality on to others. Because of course he knows that the words "the big lie" have come to refer to Trump's lie that the election was stolen. So he's going to try to appropriate them, try and create confusion to turn the tables.
And he didn't stop there. This afternoon he released another statement calling Cheney a warmonger, claiming she'll never run in a Wyoming election again, taking her yet again for telling the truth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): There really was -- the president and many around him pushing the idea that the election was stolen. And -- and that is a dangerous claim, it wasn't true.
The election wasn't stolen.
The notion that the election had been stolen or that the election was rigged was a lie. And -- and people need to understand that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: These are basic facts. And yet Republican Congressman Anthony Gonzalez tells CNN, I quote him. "If a prerequisite for leading our conference is lying to our voters then Liz is not the best fit."
And Cheney is not the only one under attack. This was the response when Mitt Romney, who voted to impeach Trump, brought up the former president while speaking to Republicans in his own state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY, (R) UTAH: I don't hide the fact that I wasn't a fan of our last president's character issues. And I'm also no fan --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: That's the senator who received an overwhelming 63 percent of the vote in 2018. And of course on cue in a statement today, Trump comes out and calls Romney, stone-cold loser. Again, not to get technical but of course the only loser here technically was Donald Trump.
And yet, the Republican Party has chosen which way it will go. I mean if you just look at the National Republican Congressional Committee you'll see it. That's the funding raising arm for congressional races, right. So that's -- that's mainstreaming, right.
They're funding all the races out there coming into the midterm. They're now taking on the leadership of their own party. Here's the fund raising email in part, "attacks on patriots like President Trump are at an all time high."
Now just to be clear, right, the definition of a patriot would be someone who fights to maintain democracy, not to undermine it, which of course is what Trump has been doing perpetuating this lie again and again whether it was today's statement or this recent rant.
This was just the other day hanging out on the patio at Monte Largo where he was putting out claims about, well, all kinds of states that he says he won but he lost, including Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Let's see what they find. I wouldn't be surprised if they found thousands and thousands and thousands of votes. So we're going to watch that very closely and after that you'll watch Pennsylvania and you'll watch Georgia and you're going to watch Michigan and Wisconsin and you're watching New Hampshire. They found a lot of votes up in New Hampshire just now; you saw that because this was a rigged election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:05:00]
BURNETT: This is just the other day. Donned a suit and went out and said that, saying the exact same things that he said in November, a full six month ago. I mean you literally could look at that Wednesday and go was that timestamp November or December, no it was timestamp last week.
So in a moment I'm going to talk to a Republican Georgia election official who was censured by his own party. That official joins the growing list of Republicans that the GOP trying to expel from the party.
And if you thought after all this you have heard it all, I will present to you this, a quote from a Republican organizer in Michigan who is trying to oust the state's director of the GOP because that director said, and I quote, "the election wasn't stolen." So that's ground to get ejected.
Debra Ell telling the Washington Post, "I speak for many people in that Trump has never actually been wrong, and so we've learned to trust when he says something, that he's not just going to spew something out there that's wrong and not verified."
For real?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: That I say the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute -- one minute and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I don't put that out there to be funny, I just put it out there to show you how literally what he does. His entire brand, his entire persona, right, is about hyperbole, exaggeration and spewing things that are wrong and not verified. That is the Trump brand.
But now those lies are becoming a threat to American democracy because people actually believe what he's saying. Manu Raju is OUTFRONT live on Capitol Hill. And Manu, you've been talking to Republicans on the Hill all day as Liz Cheney has been standing up for her right against what the president is now continuing to put out there, the lie about the election. Where does Liz Cheney stand right now?
MANU RAJU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: She's on very shaky ground internally. And this is still an open question about whether she can hang on in that number three post in leadership.
Remember back in February she faced down a threat to her leadership post in the aftermath of her joining nine other House Republicans to impeach Donald Trump on a charge of inciting the January 6 insurrection. At that time the House Republican Kevin McCarthy, he told his conference behind closed doors, just give him the leadership team he needs to lead the Republicans back to the majority.
Then the Republicans voted overwhelmingly to support her stay in the post. Things have changed according to multiple Republicans that have spoken to. The opposition has grown beyond the most conservative wing of the Republican conference, the House, Freedom caucus, to other elements of the Republican conference as well.
People who support her have told me that they don't know if they should support her again because in their view they believe that her comments against Trump will hurt their ability to unify ahead of the 2022 midterms.
Kevin McCarthy has tried to align himself with Trump, reversing his criticism that he had issued on Donald Trump in the aftermath of January 6, instead trying to bring Trump into the fold to help Republicans win back the majority. But McCarthy has not said whether or not he will stand behind Cheney.
His allies have called for her ouster. And what McCarthy can do is significant because he has the power to call for a snap election that could happen as soon as next week and it's uncertain what he will do.
So all eyes are on him but we're hearing form a number of Republicans, pressure is growing on her and him to make a decision here but it's a secret about election, Erin. So if when this time comes it's still an open question about whether she can hang on, Erin.
BURNETT: Yes, a secret ballot. Yes, all right. Thank you very much, Manu. And I want to go to now to Al Schmidt, Philadelphia city commissioner. He's a Republican who was attacked by then President Trump for refusing to declare the election fraudulent and for standing by the results of the election.
And Baoky Vu, vice chair of DeKalb County, Georgia Election Board. He's also a Republican who was censured by his own party for his stance on election. So thanks very much to both of you.
Al, let me start with you. President Trump today now trying to take over the term, the big lie to appropriate for himself. To say it's not the lie that he's telling voters about a rigged election that the lie is the election itself was fair. What do you say to that? Him trying to take that over?
AL SCHMIDT, (R) PHILADELPHIA CITY COMMISSIONER: Well, it's -- it's -- I think as you pointed out earlier sort of typical in the past of this pattern of accusing someone else of something that you yourself are guilty of. But I -- you know it's interesting that to be defined as a Republican now isn't about your position on taxation or healthcare or border control or anything else, it's really very much a litmus test for whether you are willing to go along with this lie.
When you have a conservative staunch Republican congresswoman from one of the most Republican states in our republic being -- called a rhino for saying nothing more than telling the truth is I think really very telling.
BURNETT: I mean it certain is because if you look at her on policy, right, as you point out; she's a conservative, consistent republican.
[19:10:04]
And yet, they're about to kick her out for saying the election was fair. I mean it's a pretty stunning moment we've come to. Baoky, you were censured by the DeKalb County Republican Party, right, because you spoke out against Georgia's new election law. Trump didn't think that law even went far enough.
But he's now back out there. You heard him on the patio at Monte Largo last week. It was, you know that sound byte that is deeply confusing because you think it came from November.
But he's still looking for like recounts and finding votes in -- in Atlanta among other states. But Baoky, you heard what one vote told the Washington Post, I speak for many people that Trump has never actually been wrong. He's not going to spew something out there that's been wrong and not verified. We've learned to trust when he says something.
Baoky, what do you do when voters are -- that's what they believe?
BAOKY VU, (R) VICE CHAIR, DEKALB COUNTY, GA ELECTION BOARD: That's right. It's especially worrisome because when you look back 40 years ago you had the cult of Jim Jones and you fast forward overtime and you've seen various other cults with personalities and its destructive.
I myself find it extremely ironic that -- that and I'm not the only one being censured. And you certainly -- we've had grass root activists in other counties who censured the governor, the secretary of state and lieutenant governor for first of all carrying out and discharging their duties faithfully in defense of the constitution.
And second of all, you know, putting away and refuting the type of lies that had been spread baselessly. We (ph0 forget nowadays and Sidney Powell and obviously former mayor Rudy Giuliani, their fight on behalf of the 45th president, now they basically are trying to wash their hands of it.
BURNETT: That's why it's so amazing. You know it seems to me that politics is a form of religion, right? You believe things on faith. And democracy stands on faith. It's our faith in our system and the vote. You lose the faith; it's the same thing as religion. It cannot stand. Let me ask how -- Mitt Romney and Liz Cheney of course are getting slammed.
Other republicans though are trying to walk this line and change their tune. Chris Christie called Trump's legal challenges to the election results a national embarrassment in November. But he's now saying that while Trump's ending days clouded his legacy, that overall, I give the president an A.
Now Christie is not ruling out a run for president himself but I ask you, Al, if this is how it is going to be? Do you have to celebrate Trump and try to kind of just move really quickly past what happened in January and everything else to even make it in the GOP?
SCHMIDT: Maybe the viciousness around enforcing complete loyalty to the lie that the election is stolen is in fact an indication of how much Republicans in power know that it's not true and really don't appreciate being called out on it by members of our own party.
Its, you know really uncomfortable to watch when you see compilations of people speaking over time, especially before and after January 6 to sort of watch them degrade and debase themselves. They have to know that they're not telling the truth. And I just have no sympathy for them.
BURNETT: Well, they do. I mean these are -- these are smart people. A lot of these that we're talking about they really smart people. They know they're not telling the truth. They just somehow think that there won't be a price for that for themselves of for the county.
And Baoky, as I mentioned, you were appointed by former President George W. Bush. And I just wanted to play for something that the former president said in the podcast last week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: The Republican Party stands for exclusivity. You know it used to be country clubs and now evidently it's white Anglo-Saxon Protestantism. Then it's not going to win anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: Do you think that's true though, Baoky? You think that's true. And I know you can say OK he's got 85 percent -- the former president, popularity among Republican but they're only 26 percent of the total. So we don't need to worry about. OK. But that was true four years ago and he won, right? So do you think that -- that the party can win something with Trump in its home or not?
VU: Well, I think it's a slippery slope because what has brought about true American greatness really over the past four years has been the ideas that have propagated by obviously Ronald Reagan and the statesmanship that was brought about George Hubert Walker Bush and then James Baker and you're got George W. Bush.
So when we go from a party of ideas, a party of freedom and opportunity of free trade and pro-immigration and we go down the slippery slope and become a party of grievance and party of grafters, then we become morally bankrupt.
And I still do harbor hope that in this country at this point in time that we have millions of American who actually still believe in ideals that are much higher than what's being propagated by this former president.
BURNETT: Well, Baoky and All, I appreciate both of you taking the time.
[19:15:00]
I know it takes courage to do so because I know you do it at your own political peril and cost. So thank you for coming out and continuing to speak the truth. Thanks.
And next, Rudy Giuliani claiming he's been framed as his legal adviser, Alan Dershowitz, urges Trump to get involved. So what does Dershowitz want Trump to do. Plus protestors taking to the streets in Elizabeth City, North Carolina following the funeral for Andrew Brown Jr.
At least three people have been arrested; we're going to take you there live as that's happening tonight. And our Clarissa Ward, going to take you inside an ICU in India where people are dying one after another, not enough beds, not enough drugs not enough oxygen and not enough doctors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Are you struggling to breathe?
UNKNWON: I'm unable to breathe freely, she tells us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: New tonight, Rudy Giuliani claiming federal investigators are trying to frame due to his ties to former President Trump. Telling Fox News in part quote, "They are beyond their ability to control their rational thinking or their decency and they have a serious, serious ethical issue driven by Trump derangement syndrome. They're trying to frame me.
This is Alan Dershowitz, now a legal adviser to Giuliani is urging Trump to insert himself into the legal battle. Paula Reid is now OUTFRONT.
[19:20:00]
So Paula, what does Dershowitz want Trump to do and why. I mean we should point out of course Trump does listen to Dershowitz's point of view.
PAULA REID, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He does. And Dershowitz tells me that he hopes that the former president will get involved in a court fight to try to block some of the materials that were ceased in that raid last week.
Mayor Giuliani has represented the former president as a personal attorney in a variety of different situations. And Dershowitz tells me he hopes that the former president would get involved particularly on these questions of privilege.
Now so far, Erin, in the court of public opinion, Giuliani's defense has been that's he did nothing wrong related for foreign lobbying and that he was the target of this early morning raid because of his association with former President Trump.
But so far the former president, his lawyers haven't given any indication that they actually intended to join this case.
BURNETT: All right. And of course, you know, we should point out anything they find illegal in their search is up for grabs. But what they even have the warrant for if he did it, failing to register as a foreign lobbyist would carry a prison sentence of up to five years. I mean its serious stuff.
Paula, so Dershowitz giving advice to Giuliani, comes on top of Giuliani's lawyer, I'm sorry, a guy named Robert Costello who had put at statement out after the raid happened. So what does this mean about Giuliani? I mean it certainly looks like he's taking this seriously and building up a legal team.
REID: Absolutely. I'm in touch with all the members of his legal team so far; Costello definitely a cable criminal defense attorney, Dershowitz advising. His expertise is of course on civil liberties. So right now in this moment in the investigation that's really where he's going to come in.
We know from our sources who have seen the search warrant that this is an investigation into possible foreign lobbying violations. If Giuliani is charged, then he may potentially add people who have specialty in that area.
But Erin, historically it's no really the kind of crime that has been prosecuted very often. What was really only in the Trump administration that they started aggressively pursuing this. So we're going to have to see where the case goes and if it needs additional legal guidance.
BURNETT: All right, Paula, thank you, very much, I appreciate it. And OUTFRONT next, President Biden says it's time for the wealthy to pay their fair share. So what does fair mean? How do we define that and does Biden's plan add up? John Kasich and Barney Frank face off.
And we take you inside a COVID ward of India where the conditions are so bad the families have to act as caregivers. Why? Well, when we tried to get answers, this is what happened?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Sir, you don't need to coach him what to say. He's telling him what to say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:25:00]
BURNETT: Tonight, President Biden hitting the road to pitch his infrastructure plan, saying the wealthiest Americans will be the ones paying for it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It doesn't add a single penny to our deficit. It's paid for by making sure corporate America and the wealthiest 1 percent just pay their fair share. I don't want to punish anybody but everybody should chip in, everybody should pay something along the road here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: But the top tax writing Republican in the House says that is not going to fly.
REP. KEVIN BRADY (R-TX): These are dramatic increases in taxes that have real impacts on jobs here in America.
I'm not sure we should be compromising by making America dramatically less competitive than our global competitors. I think there's going to be a real fight over our tax increases.
BURNETT: OUTFRONT now, the former Republican governor of Ohio, John Kasich. He served as the chairman of the House Budget Committee when he was in Congress.
And Former Democratic Congressman Barney Frank, who served as the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee and was behind the Dodd Frank Act, which reformed Wall Street following the financial crisis.
So Chairman Frank, let me start with you. The president wants to raise taxes on individuals earning more than $400,000 a year. He also wants to raise corporate tax rates from 21 to 28 percent. Does that seem right to you?
BARNEY FRANK, FORMER CHAIR OF HOUSE FINANCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE: Yes, I think it's within the reasonable range. Look, you have to start with the basic question. Are we now spending at the federal government level of everything we want to spend? There appears to be a consensus of that's not the case.
Even the Republican senators have said that they want to spend, I don't know, it was almost $700 billion in addition on infrastructure as they define it specifically, physical concrete infrastructure.
Well, how do you spend $700 billion that you're not now spending without either adding to the deficit or raising taxes, you know there are three practices here. 200 of billions, maybe a trillion dollars after a compromise or more of infrastructure but I'm taking the Republican number of 700 or so billion.
BURNETT: Yes.
FRANK: Then you have not letting the deficit go up and you have raising taxes. You can't do all three of those. You can't, as I said do two of those, I should of said. You can't increase spending by hundreds of billions on infrastructure, not raise taxes and not add to the deficit. So you got to pick. If you want to go forward with the infrastructure, even at the Republicans level --
BURNETT: You got to do something.
FRANK: -- you need some tax increase and then you decide how to do it.
BURNETT: Governor?
JOHN KASICH, (R) FORMER OHIO GOVERNOR: Well look, first of all, frankly this whole infrastructure program ought to be turned back to the states and let the feds take care of the national highway system but then return the rest of that money to the states so they don't have the rules and the regulations that are now imposed on them.
But if they want to raises taxes more at the state level, they can. We figured out a way to do dramatic increase in road construction in our state but that's because we used the unique approach. We bonded against the tolls from our turnpike that gave us a big chunk of money to be invested in infrastructure.
[19:30:03]
The other thing is Republicans are saying, look, when we talk about infrastructure, let's talk about highways and bridges and, you know, the roads. The fact that the Republican actually have more money going into real infrastructure than the Democrats do. So, what do you do about it? Well, some of it -- you know, we already have a gas tax. Some of it
may be involved in things like tolling. I mean, I think that makes sense. We toll the Brent Spence Bridge, connecting Ohio to Kentucky. I said, you know, it's sort of a user fee.
But, look, we are going to be spending if the last year $6 trillion more. You don't have enough people to tax to pay for all that. And so -- let's scale back some of the programs that's not working.
A Head Start is not working to help people. Let's get rid of it, or fix it. We don't need to put something on top of that program, because that's all they do in Washington. So --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: So, let me ask you, I want to ask the point, though, because you say there are not enough people to tax. And, Chairman Frank, I want to run the numbers here, as I know both you and the governor have done in your entire career.
So, if you look at the most recent tax return data we have in this country for 2018, America's reporting incomes of more than $500,000. The line that Joe Biden says he wants to raise taxes above, which is $400,000. But the closest I can get in the table is 500. They together made $2.5 trillion.
So, if you tax at 100 percent so they don't have another dollar left to invest or hire, or do anything, you just take 100 percent of it, you would only cover about 40 percent of the president's nearly $6 trillion of funding, with not a single dollar left to fund, you know, the Department of Education, the Department of Defense, or anything else, not single buck. That is not enough money, Chairman.
FRANK: That's true. But it's more than nothing. I want to go back to what John said, when I talked about the need to raise money, I don't think you can raise $700 billion. Again, I'm taking Republican figure as a minimum to hard infrastructure, the roads, the bridges, et cetera.
And they say its got to be $700 billion. You can't do that I believe just by tolls. I know in Massachusetts and Maine, tolls are already increase. They don't have extra money from tolling. You talk about bonding and thanks a good idea, but bonds have to be paid off.
And, by the way, that's reasonable because you are talking about long- term expenditure.
BURNETT: Yeah.
FRANK: But you still have this question of $700 billion on hard infrastructure that the Republicans in the Senate say is necessary and how do you pay for it. John says take it back to the states. I say that -- I don't understand it. Many states want to do that. Here's a problem with that.
We already have difficulty in the differential cost of doing business from state to state. And that becomes a constraint on the state that thinks that has these problems to address. So, I still say you cannot meet the Republican minimum for hard infrastructure and for $700 billion without adding to the deficit for raising taxes.
BURNETT: Well, I will say this. I think the Republican Party lost their credits on carrying about deficits. I mean, just to call it out, right? The Trump's deficit were, you know, extremely huge, Governor.
(CROSSTALK)
But it's like there's just enough money to do this by taxing a small group of, but yet politically, I feel like we're in a situation where that politically makes sense, and it politically works and it's pay your fair share, and it's an easy thing to say. But the numbers don't add up?
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: Let me just say, Erin, think about this, think about this. We are talking now about the Republican plan just on infrastructure, okay? Biden's plan, many have everything up he's trying to do, he's like $6 trillion.
BURNETT: Yes --
KASICH: And here's the thing, you can either raise the taxes up and begin to kill the ability for people to invest, take the incentive away for them to invest which ultimately affects the wages of Americans, the investment of equipment and productivity.
You know, the other thing is, you just print money. And if you print money, you can get into that inflationary cycle, and we've seen it before. One of the reasons why Ronald Reagan was elected president is because we are in a malaise in this country. There is a time we had sky-high interest rates, sky-high unemployment, and high inflation. So, we've got to be careful, the economy is now coming back.
FRANK: Let me --
KASICH: Let me get to one of the, thing the corporate acts as you mentioned. Janet Yellen, the treasury secretary, is going around to the rest of the world and saying to them, why don't you raise your taxes higher? Because we're going to raise ours, and we don't want you lowering your tax rate to attract jobs.
I mean, that -- I can't even believe she went out and did that, that made no sense at all. They're not going to raise their taxes to accommodate us. They're not going to do that.
BURNETT: Chairman, go ahead.
FRANK: Good for her, which she's saying -- first of all, let me take this point. Was she saying is -- maybe John thinks there is no corporations that are gaining the system by claiming that they --
KASICH: No. FRANK: -- make most their profits in a low tax country, Ireland, for example, and what she's asking for is a coordinated effort to say that we are going to work together as developed nations to prevent this gaming where companies assess their costs artificially, not according to where they're really incurred, but according to tax rates.
As to inflation and killing investment, we've seen those both before. John and I deferred in '93, we were both in the House when bill Clinton asked for tax increases, comparable in some ways to with Joe Biden is now asking for. For example, the upper of the personal tax, and I voted for it, John voted against it. The prediction was that it was going to hurt investment, cut jobs.
In fact, in the next 8 years under Clinton, not only did we have a very good economy with unemployment, it had been in anybody's memory since World War II. But as a result of the revenue that was brought in, John was able to participate in what he always said it was one of his great accomplishments, a balanced budget with budget share. As to inflation --
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: But, let me jump in, Erin, quickly, let me jump in quickly, and just say --
FRANK: John, did they cut jobs, did the Clinton tax --
(CROSSTALK)
FRANK: Did the Clinton tax plan hurt jobs?
KASICH: When Clinton raised the taxes in '93, the economy actually slowed down. '97, I was budget chairman. We didn't raise taxes, we cut the capital gains taxes and because we cut the capital gains taxes, revenues flowed in. We restrain government spending and we got the first balanced budget since the man walked on the moon.
FRANK: No, John, it didn't slow down the economy at first.
KASICH: Yes, it did.
(CROSSTALK)
FRANK: The economy -- individual income tax rate --
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: Barney in 1997, in 1997.
(CROSSTALK)
FRANK: John, you didn't cut the individual rate --
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: OK. What we did is cut the capital gains tax. FRANK: Right, but you didn't cut --
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: We cut the capital gains tax in '97, and that unleashed --
BURNETT: Chairman, now they want to increase both the capitals rate and the income rate.
KASICH: Yeah, but, wait a minute, let me go back to this for a second, Erin --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: Okay, go ahead, Chairman. Finish your point and then, Governor, I'll give you the last word.
Chairman, go ahead.
FRANK: Which chairman a talking to?
(LAUGHTER)
BURNETT: I'm sorry, Chairman Frank, because I go like, yes, I know you both are chairman.
Chairman Frank.
FRANK: OK, in the first place, I didn't want to get into inflation. That has been exaggerated, what we now have is an economy -- well, let go back to the '90s. John like was saying that the unemployment rate, I don't know about if John personally said it, that the more conservative view and some Democrats went in, said if unemployment gets much below 4-1/2 percent, it's inevitably inflationary.
We have Jay Powell, Donald Trump's appointee to chair the Feds, who says don't worry that at the current level --
BURNETT: Yes.
FRANK: -- even at the level of President Biden is contemplating, we're going to cut, we're going to have inflation. We have turned out to have a much better way, a much better margin --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: Chairman, and let me just jump in because it's fair what you say.
Governor, can I ask you one thing here though? Because Jerome Powell did say that. He also said that even though the federal budget is completely unsustainable over the longer term, that right now it is in. The foreseeable future is fine, to borrow more money that we can service to debt.
So should we not be so worried? KASICH: You're asking me that, Erin?
BURNETT: Yes.
KASICH: Look, yeah, no, the problem is that this inflation will come down, this spending will come back. You just can't print money $6 trillion dollars and present -- you know, and print even more money coming without there being an impact.
But I want to go back to what we are talking about, in '97 we cut the capital gains tax, we limited the growth of government. I did it will Bill Clinton --
FRANK: What did you get -- what did you cut it to, John? John, what did you cut it to?
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: The other thing I want to tell you is in Ohio -- in Ohio, Barney, let me finish please. In Ohio, we did lose 400,000 jobs. I cut taxes and eliminated taxes on small business, we grew 500,000 jobs. I've done these things and they've worked. But listen, I like Barney is a good man.
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: I will have you both back, I will have you both back, I appreciate both of you. Thank you.
FRANK: John, what was the capital gains tax rate when you cut it?
KASICH: We took --
FRANK: Higher than it is today.
BURNETT: We will talk about the capital gains next time. Thank you both very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: All right, I'm going to take a break here.
Next, breaking news, at least three people have been arrested as protesters are now taking to the streets in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, following Andrew Brown Jr.'s funeral.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR ANDREW BROWN JR.'S FAMILY: Because the dad cannot cry out for justice, we must do it for them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And we take you inside a hospital tonight in India on the brink of a collapse, as COVID patients are packed shoulder to shoulder, with no oxygen or help from doctors. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:43:34]
BURNETT: Breaking news, police say three protesters have been arrested in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, where Andrew Brown Jr. was laid to rest today. It's been 12 days since deputies shot and killed Brown as they were serving a warrant. And his family is still waiting to see the full body camera footage, still waiting to see, and the public hasn't seen any of it.
Brian Todd is OUTFRONT live from Elizabeth City.
Brian, you're there. You've been with these protesters. You saw these arrests moments ago. Tell me what happened.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, it's a bit of cat and mouse game all night between these protesters, and police. You're right, we did witness at least 4 people being rounded up, and handcuffed, and detained by police a short time ago, including one of the prominent protest leaders, Perk Rivers (ph), and another protest leader.
I asked the local police lieutenant, who is here, why they were being picked up? He said, because they stopped in the middle of the street. So, since that time, these protesters have tried to keep moving, and they receive various warnings from the police to keep moving, and not block streets, and not to stop.
So, they've not stopped since then, Erin, but at least 3 of those 4 people rounded up, as you mentioned, at least 3 of them have been formally arrested. This is one of the more heated confrontations we've seen since we've been here, because the police, really, have been kind of, you know, giving these protesters a lot of space, not really confronting them, not arresting them until the end of the evening, well passed curfew.
This was one of the more heated confrontations that we've seen, one of the more aggressive moves by police that we have seen, to do with this early in the evening, Erin.
[19:45:03]
So, it could be that, you know, this had to do with the funeral today, that they want to start to kind of shut down these protests but, I can tell you that it only got protesters more agitated when they made these moves to round up people. They have kind of doubled down on their determination to stay out here tonight.
BURNETT: And, Brian, you mentioned the funeral, this does come just hours after Andrew Brown Jr.'s family, you know, had his funeral. What was the family's message?
TODD: Well, Erin, the family is still trying to process everything there. They are angry, and they are heartbroken that their beloved Andrew was taken from them, and they're still trying to process the manner in which there was taken from them. We heard some very emotional words, earlier today, from Jharon and
Khalil Ferebee, two of Andrew Brown's older sons. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JHARON FEREBEE, SON OF ANDREW BROWN JR.: Me and my dad, we were like best friends. Every time you saw him, you saw me, every time you saw him, you saw me.
KHALIL FEREBEE, SON OF ANDREW BROWN JR.: I just wish she was here with us. But, as much as I will wish, and wish, and wish all day, it's not going to happen. All I've got to do for myself, and my family, we just have to hold them down. Do what he will want us to do in life. I love you, pop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: We can also tell you tonight, we've learned through the Brown family attorneys that the family and the attorneys are going to call for the local district attorney, Andrew Womble, to recuse himself from the investigation, and for any possible prosecutions, because he's dealt so extensively with the sheriff's department here.
We have reached out to Andrew Womble for comment on that. We've not heard back -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Brian, thank you so much, I appreciate it.
And next, we take you to a hospital in India where a deadly pandemic is out of control.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And you can see, people are literally just lying on the floor, desperately hoping to get some medical attention.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:50:56]
BURNETT: Tonight, the U.S. restrictions on travel from India, going into effect at midnight, as India reports more than 3,000 deaths, today alone. Known deaths, the real numbers are a lot higher.
Some of the hardest hit areas are in the North, where hospitals are truly desperate. Patients are dying in mass as they wait for medical attention.
Clarissa Ward is OUTFRONT. She is live in New Delhi tonight.
Clarissa, you've been inside one of these hospitals. The images that people are going to see in your report are disturbing, but tell us about it. You're there. What have you seen? WARD: So, Erin, we went to a neighboring state of Uttar Pradesh, this
is India's most populous state, lovely 200 million people living there, and it is also one of the hardest hit states. We saw absolutely desperate scenes, and as you said, they are harrowing. I want to warn our viewers, they are difficult to watch, but the families we talked to want the world to see their suffering.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WARD (voice-over): A man wails in anguish, but no one is listening. His cry is just one of many at this hospital in Uttar Pradesh state.
Oh, my child, he says. Oh, my god, my baby.
Inside the entrance his son Deepak is begging for his life. Gasping for air, his body convulsing. There are no doctors attending to him, a handful of medical staff working in this ward are stretched thin to breaking point.
This hospital is completely overwhelmed. The doctors say that they have around 55 beds and, currently, they are treating more than 100 patients. You can see people are literally just lying on the floor, desperately hoping to get some medical attention.
Thirty-two-year-old Kavita (ph) said she's been here for 4 days, begging for oxygen, that hasn't come.
I'm getting anxious, she says. No one can listen to me here.
Are you struggling to breathe?
I'm unable to breathe freely, she tells us. No one is taking care of me.
In the next room, more than 20 patients are packed in tightly. This is what now passes for the intensive care unit -- family members have taken on the role of primary carers, where medical staff, simply, are unavailable. This man complains, no one will change his wiped soiled bedding.
Suddenly, there is a commotion.
Will someone please call the doctor? This man shouts. His mother, 55- year-old Rashvalla (ph), appears to be slipping away. Her sons worked furiously to revive her.
A doctor comes in, and tells him to stop crowding her. The family is inconsolable.
We've been here for 6 days, and only today, we got a ventilator for my mother, he tells us. The oxygen is out. We had to bring in an oxygen cylinder.
It's a story we hear, again, and again. One man, approaching, us pleading. His wife can't get a bed.
No one is listening to me, I've tried everything, he says. Please help me, or she will die.
I'm not a doctor, I'm sorry, I can't help you.
Another man tells us his wife is struggling to breathe outside. They won't let her in. We spot hospital administrator, and ask him what's going on?
[19:55:00]
DR. GYANENDRA KUMAR, ADMINISTRATOR, LLRM MEDICAL COLLEGE: Yeah.
WARD: This man says his wife is dying outside, and needs oxygen.
KUMAR: No, there's a central line of oxygen.
WARD: He insists that oxygen isn't the problem, but says they are desperately short of staff. Those who do work here, risk becoming patients themselves. These men tell us, they move a dozen bodies a day.
Have you ever seen anything like this before? Are you not worried to be working here, and you're not wearing protective gear?
We should be wearing proper PPE, they say, but even the doctors don't have it, so how can we?
We hear screams, coming from the ICU. Rasvalla (ph) has flatlined again. Her son, desperately pumping her chest.
A doctor comes in. He takes her pulse. But, it's too late.
This time, there is no point in trying to resuscitate.
The agony of her sons is shared by so many in this country, failed by a health care system on the brink of collapse, and, a government accused of mismanaging the crisis.
Just a few hundred yards away, the same hospital complex, it's a very different picture. Orderly lines of people, patiently waiting to be vaccinated. Following the prime minister's announcement that anyone over 18 can be inoculated.
A state lawmaker is among 600 people getting their vaccine. The hospital administrator, and local journalists eagerly stand to capture the moment.
We were just in the hospital over there and it was shocking to see. It was shocking.
DR. SOMENDRA TOMAR, UTTAR PRADESH LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY MEMBER: Why?
WARD: Because the conditions are so bad here. Why do you think India has been hit so badly?
The hospital administrator interrupts, and warns him, we have been asking too many questions. Sir, you don't need to coach him on what to say.
He's telling him what to say.
TOMAR: Ma'am, we are trying our best, and some problems are here, but we are trying. Now condition is better.
WARD: Do you accept the government has failed its people in the handling of this crisis? Because I've been talking to many people, and I need to tell you, people are quite angry. People feel that this did not need to be so ugly.
The situation is not only bad here, we are trying to find solutions, he says. We are increasing the number of beds, and we are working, tirelessly, around the clock.
But, back in the COVID ward, the impact of those efforts is not yet being felt. Rasvalla's (ph) body has left for nearly one hour before it is finally moved.
India's leaders make promise that everything is being done to end this crisis. But, for now, there is no light at the end of the tunnel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: I mean, Clarissa, the stark difference with the legislator getting vaccinated, and the agony of the other ward of the hospital you saw, watching people dying. How do you feel? Like the government has done, like Prime Minister Modi has done handling this crisis?
WARD: Well, the people that we've been talking to, Erin, at places like this hospital, in long lines for oxygen, at a drive-in oxygen center, here in Delhi, the people who are literally dying on the streets, and can't breathe, those people are angry.
They feel that the worst of this could've been averted, with certain basic precautions taken, hospitals were not prepared, after the first wave of coronavirus. There weren't new beds added, there wasn't proper implementation of how to transport oxygen around this vast country.
And more than that, we saw huge political rallies, Erin, just 3 weeks ago, Prime Modi, standing there with no mask, praising this mass of thousands of people for coming out in such high numbers. You had a Hindu pilgrimage, the Kumbh Mela, with millions of worshippers congregating in the same area.
So, a lot of anger, and a lot of criticism for the government's handling of the situation.
BURNETT: All right. Clarissa, thank you very much for that powerful report, as always.
Thanks very much to all of you for watching it.
"AC360" begins now.
