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Erin Burnett Outfront

Biden Facing Economic Crises on Multiple Fronts: Supply Chain, Inflation, Record Number of Americans Quitting their Jobs; WH Formally Rejects Trump's Request to Protect Specific Documents from being Turned over to Jan. 6 Panel; WH Formally Rejects Trump's Request to Defy Jan 6 Probe as Panel Subpoenas Trump-Era DOJ Official Jeffrey Clark; Joe Rogan: A Lot of "Vulnerable People" Should Get Vaccinated; "Star Trek" Star William Shatner Gets Emotional After His Historic Trip to Space. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired October 13, 2021 - 19:00   ET


WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Tweet the show @CNNSITROOM. "THE SITUATION ROOM" is also available as a podcast. Look for us on or wherever you get your podcasts.

Erin Burnett OUTFRONT right now.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next, scrambling. President Biden trying to head off multiple economic crises, but are his solutions way too little too late?

Plus breaking news, the White House formally rejects Trump's request to keep documents from the January 6th investigation as the committee subpoenas a former Trump DOJ official and is set to clash with Steve Bannon.

And Dr. Sanjay Gupta talks to a controversial podcast host Joe Rogan about Rogan's bout with COVID, the treatments he tried and why he says he hasn't gotten vaccinated yet. You'll hear it. Let's go OUTFRONT.

And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.

OUTFRONT tonight, President Biden caught flat footed on the economy. Tonight, America's supply chain is broken and President Biden is scrambling to fix what is a massive problem that is causing rising consumer prices and a scarcity of goods, empty shelves across the country.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With the holidays coming up, you might be wondering if gifts you plan to buy will arrive on time. We have some good news, we're going to help speed up the delivery of goods all across America. After weeks of negotiation and working with my team, and with the major union retailers and freight movers, the Port of Los Angeles announced today that it's going to began operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: Now business leaders have been sounding the alarm, calling on the President to deploy the National Guard to help ease the problem. Moody's Analytics warning supply chain disruptions 'will get worse before they get better'. So why isn't Biden doing more? And, I guess, the more appropriate question here is actually why didn't he do something much sooner because this problem didn't just suddenly knock on the door. I mean, it was common.

The President even said it himself today, ports overseas are already doing what he called for today in terms of operating 24 hours a day. And as the President also said today, he has been well aware of this problem for many months now. I mean, here he is back in February.


BIDEN: Folks, we're going to have a meeting today to talk about the critical supply chain issues that affect us all, affect this country.

The last year has shown the vulnerability we have with some of the supply chains.


BURNETT: Okay. That was February, worried about a supply chain crisis. And then the President set up a task force on this issue in June, a task force. Well, there's the Secretary of Transportation who is on that task force speaking back in July.


PETE BUTTIGIEG, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: The port is doing its job, but there's an issue in the supply chain that is causing issues all in and out of not just on the coasts but every part of the country.


BURNETT: Okay. So that's really important, because what he just said there is the port is doing its job, even though today the President is trying to have the ports do more. And that gets to the heart of this. It is unclear whether President Biden's actions today will have any real impact.

One supply chain executive telling the New York Times, "I don't think that's going to materially move the needle. Some of the issues are just basic supply and demand issues. I've talked to a very senior leader in this industry as well and he says this problem is massive, it's way bigger than this. You got to stall supply chain, you got goods that aren't getting to consumers, prices are going up because there isn't enough supply and a lot of this happened because of the pandemic when people started buying a lot more goods as opposed to just consuming services. And it happened then it got bigger, and bigger, and bigger and then boom, you don't have enough, supply prices go up.

Right now there are giant container ships sitting off the coast of Southern California waiting days or more to unload goods. Those goods are then spending weeks stacked up on docks, rail cars and warehouses because then you hit another problem, there aren't enough truckers to drive them.

So consumers aren't getting their goods and neither are the companies that make the products, the supply chain also includes things that go into bigger things like computer chips. So you had Apple delay a whole iPhone and then you've got fewer cars being assembled. Price of cars, therefore, goes up. Can you believe this?

The average price of a new car went over $45,000 for the first time ever in September, $45,000 for the average price. So that's because of computer chips in cars, that's one reason. There's others as well, but that's a big one and that computer chip shortage also feeds into everything else. I mentioned iPhones, what about refrigerators? What about trying to get a dishwasher? What about a cell phone?

Computer chips are in pretty much everything we use. Again, the price has gone up.

And prices of everyday goods are up, too. I mean God knows, try to get a sofa, how about smaller things you buy every day, a gallon of gas now costs $3.17.


A year ago $2.08, it's a 52 percent increase. That's inflation. A dozen of eggs now cost $1.84, up 36 percent from a year ago. A pound of bacon, $7.22. A pound of bacon. Up about 30 percent in a year.

So all-in consumer prices rose in August by 5.4 percent from a year ago. There go any wage increases right out the door and right now inflation is at a 30-year high, a 30-year high. And as I said, if there's anything that can eat away any wage gains and eat away an economy, it is inflation.

But the President and his cabinet have been saying, don't worry about it. It's just transitory or temporary, just going to last for a little bit here, but they've been saying it for months.


JANET YELLEN, TREASURY SECRETARY: My judgment right now is that the recent inflation that we've seen will be temporarily. It's not something that's endemic.

BIDEN: And by the way, talking of inflation, the overwhelming consensus is it's going to pop up a little bit and then go back down.

GINA RAIMONDO, COMMERCE SECRETARY: We do not have fears at this point related to persistent inflation.

YELLEN: Supply bottlenecks have developed that have caused inflation, I believe that they're transitory.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: Okay. They may be but after some point, month one, month two, month three, month four, month five, you have to ask the question of how long exactly does temporary last. Phil Mattingly is OUTFRONT at the White House.

So Phil, look, when we lay this out, it isn't as if suddenly there's a supply chain shock, oh, my gosh, we didn't see this coming. The President of the United States was talking about this back in February, why didn't the White House act sooner?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Erin, I think it's a key point. The President's top economic officials have been keenly aware of this reality for months pretty much since they took office and whether it's an executive order or task forces, some smaller scale issues related to specific sectors. They've tried to take some actions.

But as one official describe to me who's involved in this process, there was a sense of policy paralysis due to the constraints they felt we're on the President here. Now, keep in mind, the supply chain both domestically and globally is largely driven by private sector actors. You had a demand shock in the wake of the pandemic that is simply unprecedented and then you had several different pieces of the supply chain that simply aren't monolithic. There are different issues with each one.

And that's why you saw the president take action today, but action that was largely not driven by federal demand or mandate. It was driven by convening to some degree. The President serving as a mediator, as somebody who was able to bring the key players together.

Now, look, White House officials know that this isn't the silver bullet. They don't think at least officials I've spoken to that there will be a silver bullet. What the plan is going forward is a recognition that on each element of the supply chain, perhaps the President and his team can do something similar, whether it's on trucking, whether it's on logistics, whether it's on rail systems, all facing major issues right now. That is where they believe the President actually has some power to move something forward.

But in terms of some major federal action I'm told it's very unlikely because they don't think legally there's the basis for it that the private sector is the one driving this and I think that gets to the reality and the risks right now. We're 10 weeks away from the holiday season, there's a very real possibility individual Americans are going to see delays or just unavailable things that they want to purchase. That is a nightmare for any White House.

However, it is the reality given the post-pandemic economy and globally interconnected nature of supply chains in this moment in time. Erin, as one official involved in this told me, we simply can't just flip a switch here. We can do things to help smooth the process out, but to some degree, you just have to let the market work.

BURNETT: All right. Phil, thank you very much. And I want to go now to Austan Goolsbee, because he was the former Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Obama. Also with me, the former Republican of Ohio Governor, John Kasich, also former congressman who served as Chairman of the House Budget Committee. So you both know a lot about this issue from different perspectives.

Austan, okay, we all knew there was going to be a supply shock in some way, all business leaders were talking about it, the White House knew about it and yet here we are. How long does this supply issue last and continue driving consumer prices up?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, FMR. CHAIRMAN COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS UNDER PRES. OBAMA: It feels like several more months at the very least. Now, I think Matt's description was exactly right, this is a private sector phenomenon and this is a worldwide phenomenon.


GOOLSBEE: There is not some obvious thing that the White House could do to just prevent these supply bottlenecks, all because their container ships backed up in the English Channel not getting into the U.K. You've got shipping backlogs in Asia. You've got coronavirus spreading in the places where they're making the computer chips, so the people can't go to the factories to make the chips and it's going to - like the toilet paper shortage at the outset of this crisis, there are some things that they're extremely inconvenient and the only way to get through them is to just count on the market system ramping up production, but it's going to take several months for that to happen.


BURNETT: So Governor, the President today did call on private business to step up and do more. But did the President do enough to fix this himself?

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Erin, of course, your analysis was spot on where people should read what you said at the beginning. And I like Austan, I think he's good man and I don't want to dance on anybody's troubles. They should have been on this a long time ago. They should have put somebody in that role who is going to go and really be able to break China and get things done.

In addition to that, this is a black swan event. A black swan event means it's something that happens after is not going to be like what it was before. They should have anticipated the fact that there was going to be this huge demand coming out of the pandemic. Let me give you another thing.

We got a problem, we don't have enough workers who can drive trucks. We don't have enough workers in the warehouse. That's another problem. And let me tell you one other thing, the international carriers, they're in rip-off mode. That is something that the administration could do. Their profits have gone up 2,000 percent and they break contracts, when it comes to containers, there's many, many things that can be done. Frankly, we're behind the curve.

Now, let's hope that we can get people driving those trucks, operate the railroads, let's get those things on, but we're playing catch up, Erin, and it's causing inflation. The price of things are going up like you said about 5.4 percent increases, significant increase because there's shortages and it could have been prevented. Let's do the best we can and make sure that kids get their toys for Christmas.

BURNETT: I mean, and Austan, look when I say 5.4 percent and that's the highest in 30 years, you hear the President, you hear Treasury Secretary repeat and they have done so since the spring that this is temporary. Of course, you're not going to have a chip shortage forever unless we have other issues, I understand that.

But temporary becomes not temporary once people expect it to continue going up and we're at a point here where this has been going up for quite a while, how long does temporary last?

GOOLSBEE: Well, this is back to the same issue, it's definitely going to be months. And I disagree with the Governor, there is not something that they could have done to prevent inflation. Just look around the world, the IMF has downgraded the global growth projections, because of these supply chain issues that are affecting everyone, what's happening is all of the economies ...

BURNETT: But they downgraded the United States by more than any other country in the G7.

GOOLSBEE: ...all of the economies of the world are trying to come back at exactly the same time and that's happening at a very sudden basis and there's not an obvious way to fix that other than promote the private market.

Now, they should be working on ports, that I think the Governor's got some good ideas of let's work on truck drivers, because that's going to become a bottleneck in the future. But the production is the key barrier here that if you can't get computer chips out of Asia, that they're not producing them, you're going to have a supply chain problem and that supply chain problem is going to go for several months.


GOOLSBEE: Whether that turns into something broader that lasts forever, I think that's a serious issue. But so far, I still think that the temporary (inaudible) ...

BURNETT: So I understand your point and I understand the point you're making about temporary. Governor, let me ask you this and give Austan a chance to respond because the examples I gave also - I understand the whole issue of a global supply chain, things come from outside the United States, the U.S. loses some control over that, totally get it but that does not apply to bacon and it doesn't apply to eggs and it shouldn't apply to clothing in the way that it is, although that's also global. But we're seeing it on everything and I think most people have had an experience now where they've walked into a Target or a grocery store and they've said, "Why is there no laundry detergent? Why would there be a shortage of laundry detergent?" That is not something for which demand should go up based on a recovery, so Governor - so, go ahead.

KASICH: Well, part of it, Erin, where I have to disagree with Austan is when you spend money like a drunken sailor and you just keep printing all this money, at some point as you know, money begins to change hands quicker. And we've anticipated this for a long time but at the same time, if you look, fuel prices way up, commodity prices way up.

All these things are combined and it is government policy, but let me go back to the beginning. We knew there was going to be a great demand for products coming out of COVID. We know it. Well, if you know that then you got to move quickly to put people in there that can begin to handle this and be able to be talking to our international partners who are engaged in unbelievable rip-offs right now.


So there are many things that could have been done to prepare. I'm uncomfortable just pounded on somebody when they're down. I don't like when that happens, but sometimes you got to call it like it is and they're behind the curve. And hopefully we can get on the other side of the curve, but when you have a black swan event, everything is going to change.

BURNETT: Austan, quick final word to you, what explains the shortage and all the things that should be domestically accessible?

GOOLSBEE: It's clearly the private sector and it's clearly in your piece, you described it correctly that we shifted to buying a lot of goods where we normally buy a lot of services. And so we've got shortages, because the system is not designed to satisfy this level of goods demand when people used to be spending their money on going on vacation and getting a massage or that sort of thing.


GOOLSBEE: And it is not the government's decision, it's the private sectors decision and we just got to recognize that.

BURNETT: All right. I appreciate both of you very much, such a crucial topic for every single one of us.

KASICH: Thanks, Erin.

BURNETT: And next breaking news, the White House formally rejecting Donald Trump's attempt to keep documents from the January 6 committee as another key Trump ally gets subpoenaed tonight.

Plus, our Sanjay Gupta goes one-on-one with controversial podcast host, Joe Rogan, about COVID and why Rogan says he has not been vaccinated. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)



GUPTA: ...I would say you've had it.


GUPTA: And not get one shot at the vaccine.


GUPTA: Why not?


BURNETT: And William Shatner never expected to react like this when he went to the edge of space today.


WILLIAM SHATNER: This experience is something unbelievable.




BURNETT: Breaking news, the White House formally rejecting Donald Trump's latest attempt to assert executive privilege and not cooperate with the House Select Committee investigating the January 6th insurrection. And in a letter released today, the White House Counsel has instructed the National Archives to release the documents the Committee is seeking from the Trump White House, quote, "Thirty days after your notification to the former President, absent any intervening court order."

This as the Committee issued a subpoena for former Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark demanding documents as well as Clark's testimony. Clark did play an integral role in then-President Trump's attempts to try to overturn the 2020 election, working very closely with Trump on a plan to undo Georgia's election results and then trying to oust the acting Attorney General and install himself, Jeffrey Clark, to be the leader of the Justice Department.

Paula Reid is OUTFRONT, so Paula a lot of developments here. I want to start with Jeffrey Clark. He may not be a household name, but he was very important central to Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election. What more can you tell us about him and how likely he is to comply with the committee?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, in this subpoena, the Committee cites credible evidence that Clark tried to interfere with the transfer of power. Specifically, they say he proposed that the Justice Department send a letter to state legislators in Georgia and other states suggesting that they delay certification of election results and even hold a press conference announcing a federal investigation of voter fraud.

Now, those proposals were rejected for lacking a factual basis and just being inconsistent with the Justice Department's actual role. Now, as to your question about whether he will comply, well, a source familiar with his talks with a committee tell CNN it is likely he will testify.

Today, his old colleague, former Acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen, he met with the committee for eight hours. So Clark's options for resisting, they're really limited.

BURNETT: Wow. Which is pointing out with others, people like Steve Bannon and completely stonewalling, it is important to know someone like Clark could comply. And I know this is a big week for the Committee from your reporting, Paula. Previously subpoenaed Trump loyalists Bannon and Kash Patel are scheduled to give testimony and depositions to the committee tomorrow. Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino are scheduled for Friday.

Now, we do know Bannon is not cooperating, so don't expect anything there yet. Is there any chance that the other three show up for their scheduled deposition?

REID: Well, at this point Bannon says he's not going to comply unless there is a court order. And the Committee has made it clear that they will move quickly perhaps as soon as tomorrow to refer anyone who doesn't comply to the Justice Department for criminal contempt.

Now, Kash Patel, he told us earlier today that he is engaging with the committee and it appears that those talks are focused, Erin, on a constructive way to resolve this issue. But unless he works out a deal with the Committee, he too could potentially be looking at contempt.

Now, Scavino he was only served last Friday after the Committee had trouble locating him. But Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, he too has been engaging with the Committee but it's still unclear if he'll appear on Friday.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Paula Reid.

And so for more on Paula's reporting, I want to bring in Shan Wu former Federal Prosecutor and former Counsel to the Attorney General in the Clinton administration and Sean Trende, Senior Elections Analyst for RealClearPolitics.

So Shan, let me start with you. This could come down to whether the Justice Department will get involved and charge any of these Trump loyalists for not complying. Everyone keeps saying, okay, well, ultimately it's all going to go to the DOJ. If there's ever going to be a criminal charge here. The Attorney General has been reluctant to appear partisan, so there's been a lot of uncertainty about whether that will happen.

So Shan, do you think that Merrick Garland's DOJ will or will not pursue criminal contempt charges?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think ultimately they will, Erin. I think this is a real litmus test for this DOJ. They certainly are very worried about the way the Trump DOJ debased and hurt the integrity of the institution and they're scared that they will look partisan. But ultimately, in a case like this with the lack of any real legal defense, I think they're going to step up and do the right thing.

BURNETT: So one more question here, Shan, on this, the White House Counsel says the National Archives documents are going to be released 30 days after notification of the former president absent an intervening court order. Now, this is the whole issue of executive privilege and the Trump administration wants all this stuff kept private and the Biden ministration is refusing to do that. So do you think President Trump will take this issue of executive privilege to court and how will the courts rule?

WU: I think he will try to take it to court as long as he can afford to pay his lawyers. I think that the courts are going to rule against them. Executive privilege unlike other kinds of privileges like doctor-patient, lawyer-client, they aren't personal to the president.


Meaning he doesn't carry it around with him afterwards. It is a privilege that is for the Office of the President and he is not president anymore, so it's really up to the current administration.

BURNETT: It's pretty amazing though the precedent that it will set when the shoe is on the other foot for the Democrats.

Sean, I want to ask you, because politics is just so core to all of this, of course. It comes as CNN reports, more and more Republicans are using some of the strongest terms yet to defend Trump's role in the insurrection. Republican Congressman Jeff Van Drew who left the Democratic Party in 2019 was asked if he thought Trump was responsible for January 6th. He said, "I do not. I think people are responsible for their own actions."

And the reality of it is, of course, Sean, is no one's more popular with the Republican base than Donald Trump. So are we just going to see more and more Republicans, including those who are very critical of the president after January 6th now just get in line?

SEAN TRENDE, REALCLEARPOLITICS SENIOR ELECTIONS ANALYST: I think there's kind of two things what the politicians say and what they do. On the one hand, yes, the Republican politicians are defending President Trump. He remains very popular in the Republican Party, as you said. And at the same time, we live in a country with these districts where they probably have more to fear from their primary than from the general election.

At the same time, if this were a fight that Republicans wanted, they would have voted for this commission. They know that this is not what they want to be talking about heading into the 2021 and then 22 elections. So I think they don't really want this fight.

BURNETT: Right. And yet this fight dominates things in part because the former president is saying Republicans shouldn't even vote if we don't relitigate the last election before the next one. I mean, it's pretty stunning. But Sean, what about Democrats? When you look at, I mean, Independents, I'm sorry. I mean, I understand Independents tend to say they're independent, but generally vote Republican or Democrat pretty consistently. But independent voters are the biggest block, where do they stand on this?

TRENDE: Yes. But most independents, we like to say, are closet partisans. They say they're independent but they always vote for the same party like you said. For the independents though, the true independents tend to be not very politically engaged and kind of go with the wind.

So when the political conversation is about things like inflation, and supply chain shortages and things like that, it hurts the Biden administration. That is why Republicans don't want this discussion because as soon as President Trump interjects himself or is interjected into the national conversation, those numbers can change very quickly because the former president is not terribly popular with independents either.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you both very much. I appreciate your time.

WU: Good to see you, Erin.

TRENDE: Thank you.

BURNETT: All right. And next, Sanjay Gupta talks to podcast host Joe Rogan about all things, COVID why Rogan hasn't gotten the vaccine.


GUPTA: So would now, with what you know now and having had COVID, would you have wished that you had been vaccinated?



BURNETT: And no college degree needed amid a nationwide teacher shortage, Oregon is so desperate for substitute teachers. It is taking drastic measures wait till you see it.



BURNETT: New tonight. CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, going one on one with Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan, of course, is the controversial podcast host who tested positive for COVID, took unproven treatments for the virus, and has repeatedly raised doubts about the vaccine and criticized the vaccines.

Here is a bit of what Rogan has said in the past.


ROGAN: If you're, like, 21 years old and you say to me, should I get vaccinated? I go no. If you are a healthy person and you're exercising all the time and you're young and you're eating well. Like, I don't think you need to worry about this.

All you hear is take this vaccine that doesn't even prevent you from getting the disease or you can't go to the -- to the sauna or wherever the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you want to go. You can't go to the Broadway show. It's madness.


BURNETT: Well, in a new podcast out today, Sanjay asked Rogan about getting vaccinated. And here is that exchange.


GUPTA: So, would you now -- with what you know now and the having had COVID -- would you have -- would you have wished that you had been vaccinated?


GUPTA: Beforehand? You almost got vaccinated?

ROGAN: Yeah, but again, I explained all that.

GUPTA: You got through it.

ROGAN: But I got through COVID.

GUPTA: Yeah.

ROGAN: Pretty quickly.

GUPTA: Yeah.

ROGAN: So -- so that was my -- my -- it -- my thought was I'm a healthy person. I exercise constantly. I'm always taking vitamins. I take care of myself.

I felt like I was going to be okay, and that was true. It was correct. I'm happy I got through it. I don't wish it upon anyone. It wasn't fun but it wasn't the worst cold I've ever had, and I got over it fairly quickly, relatively speaking.

GUPTA: I think that -- and again, I am truly glad about that -- I'm not -- all kidding aside, I don't think anybody wishes you ill. Everybody wants you to be well and healthy. But I think the question is just in terms of the nuance of this. It's not a strategy to recommend people get infected. ROGAN: I'm not recommending anyone get infected.

GUPTA: So they should get vaccinated.

ROGAN: I think a lot of people should get vaccinated.

GUPTA: You are talking to a lot of vulnerable people. If you just said vulnerable people, that'd be a lot of people.

ROGAN: Older people. Fat people. I think -- I think a lot of those folks.

My real concern is to urge to vaccinate children and I don't know what kind of data we have on the long-term effects of this. And I don't know what kind of data -- when you look at the study that shows that the 12 to 15-year-old boys are four to six times more likely or -- what -- is that the number?


Whatever the number was, much more likely. That scared the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of me.

GUPTA: Thankfully, it's really small numbers, right?

ROGAN: Period.


BURNETT: All right. Sanjay is with me now and, Sanjay, of course, is also the author of the new book "World War C: Lessons from the COVID- 19 Pandemic and How to Prepare for the Next One."

So, Sanjay, look, I think this is really important because Joe Rogan is listened to and -- and popular with a lot of people who aren't consuming mainstream media and mainstream science, right? So, you went on there, I know, to talk to him, yes? And to talk to people who listen to him. You talked to him for more than three hours.

So what was the main reason that you made the decision to do that?

GUPTA: Yeah. I think it's exactly that, Erin. I mean, it -- it's this idea that, you know, we have been at this for a couple of years now. I think we -- we talk about this, obviously, on -- on your program, on CNN all the time.

But there's -- there is a lot of people who still aren't getting the message. And I -- I don't know. I -- maybe it was a silly idea of mine but I -- I wanted to go talk -- I think if you are serious about public health, you have got to go reach people who aren't typically hearing these messages.

And I think it's -- Joe -- I also felt Joe was willing to have a dialogue. I mean, we had talked on the phone a couple of times. He wanted to have this conversation, so I thought there was room for a real dialogue, out of which maybe some new -- some new knowledge for his listeners could come.

GUPTA: So I played part of the vaccination conversation, but as I said, it was three hours so it wasn't the only time you tried to convince Rogan to get vaccinated. I wanted to play another instance during an exchange that you had when you -- you guys were talking about immunity to COVID.


GUPTA: Testing is obviously testing you to see if you have the virus.

ROGAN: Yeah.

GUPTA: The therapeutic is to treat you because you have the virus.


GUPTA: I still think it'd be better not to get the virus.

ROGAN: I think you'd be better to get the virus, recover, and have amazing immunity to it, wouldn't it be?

GUPTA: Well, you could get sick, though.

ROGAN: You know what I think you should do? You should get vaccinated and then get sick.

GUPTA: What?

ROGAN: This is why. Because then, you got the vaccine protects you from a bad infection. And then, you get COVID. So then, you get the robust immunity that's imparted from having the actual disease itself which is far more complex and comprehensive than you're getting from the vaccine that targets one specific protein, right?

GUPTA: You could make that argument, I think.

ROGAN: So that's a move. Get vaccinated. Let it wane. And hang around with a bunch of dirty people.

GUPTA: Okay. Well, I --

ROGAN: And then, get a lot of therapeutics on hand so you can take care of it quickly.

GUPTA: I will see your recommendation and give you --

ROGAN: Do it? Should have come out with us last night. You probably would have caught it.

GUPTA: I almost did. Now, I know -- now, I know your secret plan was.


GUPTA: But so -- so for you, Joe Rogan --


GUPTA: -- I would say you've had it.


GUPTA: Not get one shot of the vaccine?


GUPTA: Why not?

ROGAN: Because I have better immunity than I would if I was vaccinated.


BURNETT: Okay. So, Sanjay, as many times as you tried to explain that, I mean, the obvious things of nobody knows how long that natural immunity lasts or how it differs from person to person. And of course, it would only be better if you had the vaccine on ton of it. All of these basic facts. Do you feel like you broke through? Or that he will ever embrace the vaccine?

GUPTA: I -- I -- I really -- I don't think so. You know, I hate to say that but he just was very steadfast in this. And when I cited him data saying, hey, look, there is the -- the people who have natural immunity, people who have vaccinated immunity. And while they -- the natural immunity may be strong for a period of time. Reinfection rates are twice as high among people who have natural immunity, versus vaccinated immunity.

All this data, and he didn't dismiss the data but that sort -- that's, I think, the thing that sort of surprised me the most, is that I think when you're convincing yourself of a particular narrative, in this case, no vaccine. You find whatever sort of argument you can to support that.


GUPTA: So there was a study that came out of Israel showing, at least for a period of time, people do have strong immunity from natural immunity. But the idea of how long it lasts, the idea of what the reinfection rates are. He -- I just think that he didn't want to hear that.

And you could hear, he was kind of jokey about it, Erin. He was suggesting, instead of him going and getting a vaccine, that I should go get COVID. I'm pretty sure he was joking about that. But you -- you -- you could sort of see what I was dealing with there.

BURNETT: Right. Right. I mean, all right. So, he -- he did -- and I -- a little bit, I played there about the issue with children which I know is front and center, by the way, for a lot of people. Not just people who may listen to Joe Rogan but people out there, overall. Right? They have questions. Kids are the least at risk of dying. Why not wait and see how -- how long the vaccine, you know, it has a

few years to see before they give it to their kids. So it came up with him and here is that exchange.


GUPTA: Only way we can know long-term stuff is with the passage of time, you know, for certain.


ROGAN: That's terrifying for parents.

GUPTA: Well, it is.

ROGAN: The idea your son could get vaccinated and most likely, he would have been fine if he got COVID. And that your son could catch myocarditis and have permanent heart problems.

GUPTA: Well, I don't know we could say a person would be fine if they get COVID, Joe.

ROGAN: A young boy? Most young boys with no comorbidities.

GUPTA: When you say fine, you mean what? That they're not going to die?

ROGAN: I mean, like me. I had COVID.

GUPTA: You -- you look like you're as strong as an ox. Yes, I give you that. But you get teenagers who will have these long-COVID naps. You get --

ROGAN: What does that mean?

GUPTA: They just -- they're tired all the time. They get these sort of long-hauler-type symptoms. You know, less so in kids but when you talk about 33 percent of people having persistent symptoms that last months, I just feel like we -- like, I think we're allowed to have a nuanced conversation about this. We measure things in terms of life and death.


GUPTA: And I get that. I mean, it's easy, it's public health. That's the way the numbers get presented and frankly, we probably -- that's our fault as well in the media to just say this is how many people have died.

We don't know a lot of what this virus does to the body, we probably shouldn't just think of it as another type of pneumonia or cold, because it's clearly doing something else. A cold wouldn't just cause isolated loss of smell. Flu wouldn't even do that. And then, so many people developing long-term symptoms.


BURNETT: Now, I thought that was incredibly powerful. I mean, do you think that that breaks through to -- to parents, right, that the unknown of what a seemingly innocuous COVID infection may do to your child for years or months to a nervous system or your brain, the size even of your brain, those -- those are very real risks, as well.

GUPTA: Yeah. I mean, that is eat thing. We are still, obviously, learning a lot about this virus. I mean, people often say what is the long-term data on something? And it is true. To only know for sure, long-term data, is you have to have the passage of time to say for sure.

But we know that most side effects, for example, from the vaccines occur within the first 42 days.

One of the things that Joe talks about, a lot of people who are critical of the vaccines talk about is this issue of myocarditis, inflammation of the heart. And I want to show you something in -- and again, this was in the podcast. But show you just the rates of myocarditis with the vaccine, compared to rates of myocarditis with COVID, which is really -- you got to compare apples to apples here.

So with the -- with the vaccine, there is an additional 2.7 events per 100,000 people. With the -- the infection, itself, it's higher. It's -- it's, you know, four to five times higher likelihood of developing myocarditis.

These are both small numbers and in almost all the cases, people recovered and did not have, you know, persistent symptoms. But the point is that people often say myocarditis is a concern. Yes, it is. But it's a larger concern with the disease and how -- how to sort of emphasize that to people. Nobody wants this disease.


GUPTA: I mean, this is a bad virus that's been spreading. But when you are trying to figure out risk, truly sitting down as a parent in this case and comparing apples to apples and saying, which is the better option for my child I think is important. And that's to say nothing, Erin, of the fact that right now with, you know, in the middle of a pandemic, any -- anything we can do to slow down the spread of the virus is important, as well.

Kids who are vaccinated will help slow down the spread. So there is an individual sort of reason but also a collective that -- that -- that, you know, could -- could help, as well.

BURNETT: Well, really powerful and I hope his audience heard it. Our audience hears it and that he hears it, right? I mean, the number one risk you do hear about, right, for young men, boys, myocarditis. You're saying you have a five times greater risk of getting that from COVID and then from the vaccine. I think that's an incredibly powerful just basic statistic for people to know.

All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you. GUPTA: You got it. Thank you, Erin.

BURNETT: And next, want to be a substitute teacher in Oregon? Well, you don't have to have a four-year degree to do it. How come?

And also, coming up, we have new video of William Shatner during his life-altering trip to the edge of space.


WILLIAM SHATNER, ACTOR: I hope I never recover from this.




BURNETT: Tonight, amid a nationwide teacher shortage, Oregon is now saying it will not require a bachelors degree for substitute teachers. Okay. That's -- that just -- say it again. They will not require a bachelor's degree for a substitute teacher and the new rule allows anyone 18 and older to apply.

It comes as the number of substitute teachers in Oregon has plummeted by almost 50 percent since the pandemic started.

OUTFRONT now, Anthony Rosilez, executive director of the Oregon Teachers and Practices Commission which is behind this move to drop the bachelor's degree requirement.

Okay. So, Anthony, tell me why. What led to this decision? Obviously, some watching this may feel it is extreme. It's a little shocking. Wait a minute. You don't have to have a college degree to teach kids.

But -- but tell me how you ended up here?


The first thing I would like to do is, of course, is thank our educators currently in our schools. You know, the pandemic has not been easy on any of our educators and, you know, they have been dedicated and committed to providing the supportive and safe-learning environments that we -- we emphasize in Oregon because this is all about our students, our kids. I also want to mention that these are frontline workers.


ROSILEZ: And therefore, they -- they put up with a lot of the challenges during this pandemic. And what we've noticed in Oregon is much like the rest of the country, is a significant shortage in our teachers, particularly substitute teachers. Now, this shortage isn't unique to just teaching. Many of our districts are experiencing shortages in bus drivers, in custodial staff, in food staff. I even know of one superintendent who's had to put on aprons for a few days and help serve food.

So, one of the things -- and that brings me to an important point, Erin -- is that when we think about schools and when we think about what schools mean to students, it's important to remember -- and maybe, you can remember back to your time, Erin, in school -- when school was, yes, about learning.


But it was also about the opportunity to develop relationships with our educators, with students, with, you know, just people in the school community. So, one of the things that we believed in Oregon that's very important is to maintain the in-person instruction that we've begun at the beginning of this-school year. You know, the last year --

BURNETT: Well, and to that point -- because obviously, you know, you -- people coming back. I mean, what is the reason -- when you say the number of substitute teachers are dropped by nearly 50 percent -- and I know some full-time teachers are quitting so substitute teachers have been hired, right? But is that really the only reason?

I mean, what are the other reasons? Are people just making life decisions? Are people not okay with vaccine mandates? Is it all of the above? I mean, what's the reason that you're seeing this plunge, first and foremost?

ROSILEZ: Well, Erin, what -- what I can say is that we've not, up until the time of the pandemic, actually collected data specifically on why our substitute teachers aren't renewing their licenses. You know, this is part of -- you know, data sets that we now need to begin collecting. But what I can say is that when we've seen our -- a number of substitute licenses went down from about 8,300 in December of 2019 right before the pandemic, to the beginning of this-school year, when we were down to 4,700 --


ROSILEZ: -- I think you can -- you -- you can get a sense that there has been something very precipitous that's contributed to this decline. And what we have seen is -- you are correct -- we've seen some of our substitutes who have been assigned to actual full-time teaching assignments within the schools where that takes them away from the opportunity to substitute.

BURNETT: Quickly, before we run out of time, I just want to ask you, though. So you are doing what you need to do. I understand that. Or what you feel you need to do, right? But when people hear you don't have to have a bachelor's degree and you can be 18 years old to be in a classroom -- gosh, in New York, that could mean up to 32 kids with one teacher. I'm sure in Oregon, it's not quite as many in your contract.

But are those people really qualified?

ROSILEZ: Thank you. That's a great question, Erin. And what -- what we've done at the Teacher Standards and Practices Commission is we've made sure to include some special provisions for these educators to help them, support them in their work but also to be successful in working with our students.

One of the things that we've done is we've made sure that the school districts who are sponsoring these emergency substitute teachers are dedicating a specific administrator who will be their point of contact, their resource, their guide responsible for providing training and the resources needed for them to be successful.

We are also making sure to limit this substitute to the specific district that's sponsoring them. That will further help them focus their resources on supporting the students in their district.

So, we believe this will help provide that flexibility as a tool to school districts.

BURNETT: All right. Hopefully, it's a wake-up call, though, for what we are dealing with in your state and across this country.

Anthony, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

And next, the new video of William Shatner weightless at the edge of space. He broke down after his history-making adventure.


SHATNER: What you have given me is the most profound experience.




BURNETT: Tonight, Captain Kirk is back on earth. At the age of 90, "Star Trek" star William Shatner has become the oldest person to visit space.

Jason Carroll is OUTFRONT.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- and William Shatner about to go with very few humans have gone before.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): he was not the captain on this mission but one would never know it because for the ten minute 17 second trip to space, all eyes were on Blue Origin's most famous passenger, William Shatner. "Star Trek's" captain, James T. Kirk.

SHATNER: Top speed.

VOICE: No description. CARROLL: Shatner and the crew onboard Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin capsule

soared to an altitude of more than 347,000 feet, making Shatner who is 90, the oldest person to reach space.

The trip included just a few minutes of weightlessness and a view of the planet only few have seen which was not lost on Shatner. Who once back on the ground, was greeted by cheers and Bezos. The entire experience, so moving, for a moment, Shatner wasn't sure if he would be able to find the right words.

SHATNER: In a way, it's indescribable.

CARROLL: But he did it in a way only Shatner could.

SHATNER: Mother Earth and comfort. And there's -- is there death? I don't know. Is that death? Is that the way death is? And it's gone. Jesus.

It was so moving to me. What you have given me is the most profound experience I can imagine. I'm so filled with emotion about what just happened. I -- I just -- it's extraordinary. Extraordinary.

I hope I never recover from this. I hope that I can maintain what I feel now. I -- I don't want to lose it.

CARROLL: The mission, giving Shatner, who has been passionate about issues surrounding the preservation of the planet, a whole new perspective.

SHATNER: The moment you see how -- the vulnerability of everything. It's so small. This air which is keeping us alive is -- is thinner than your skin.

CARROLL: For now, so much attention on the billionaire-space race, after Bezos and Virgin Galactic's Richard Branson's launches earlier- this year. Those who boldly get to go where few have gone before can do it because they have hundreds of thousands of dollars. But Shatner says if more people could see what he just saw --

SHATNER: It's unlike anything I've ever seen.

CARROLL: It might change a lot of perspectives.

SHATNER: Everybody in the world needs to have the philosophical understanding of what we're doing to earth.

CARROLL: For now, Shatner's fans happy to see the arc of a man who inspired so many by playing a space captain.

SHATNER: Once again, we've saved civilization as we know it.

CARROLL: Finally, really see space for himself.

Yes, William Shatner, you are, indeed, a real-life rocket man.

SHATNER: I think it's going to be a long, long time. CARROLL: Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.


BURNETT: And thanks so much for joining me.

"AC360" starts now.