Return to Transcripts main page
Erin Burnett Outfront
Officials Give Update On Deadly Mass Shooting At Wisconsin School; Judge: Trump Does Not Have Immunity From Hush Money Conviction; U.S. Officials: Russia Carrying Out Large-Scale Syria Withdrawal. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired December 16, 2024 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BARBARA WIERS, ELEMENTARY & SCHOOL RELATIONS DIRECTOR, ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL: We follow the protocol of always keeping our school doors locked.
[19:00:03]
And so that is one of the things that makes it quick and easy to secure a room. I was actually teaching at the time. And so following those protocols as a teacher would do, we take care of making sure the door is secure.
We shut the door down, we get the students to a safe part of the room, and we prepare the students handled themselves magnificently. I cannot, cannot tell you how well our students did in that process. They were clearly scared, when they realized when we practice, we always say, this is a drill. It is just a drill.
When they heard lockdown, lockdown and nothing else, they knew it was real, but they handled themselves brilliantly and our faculty, kudos to them for following the protocols, keeping their students safe, doing what we have been trained to do. And so much credit of that goes to the Department of Justice and the office of school safety. We have been through a number of trainings by them, and we follow their -- their standards. And, while we had never hoped to actually employ them today, they helped keep students safe.
CHIEF SHON BARNES, MADISON, WISCONSIN POLICE: We have an additional comment.
TRISH KILPIN, DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF SCHOOL SAFETY AT WISCONSIN DOJ: I'm Trish Kilpin, the director of the office of school safety at Wisconsin DOJ.
And I just would like to reiterate something Chief Barnes had mentioned earlier, and that is that targeted violence is preventable, that when somebody conducts a school shooting, they don't simply snap. They don't just decide one day to engage in this egregious behavior. Instead, they make a decision and start research and planning towards an act of violence.
And when they're on that pathway to violence, they often demonstrate observable behaviors that others noticed. Eighty-two percent of the time, somebody knows about a school shooter's plan to attack a school. So I would encourage all in the community students, parents alike, to report, to speak up, Speak Out Wisconsin, our 24/7 call center, where we do receive concerns about planned school attacks and deliver them locally to local law enforcement and schools to intervene to prevent violence.
REPORTER: Can you say and spell your first and last name, please?
KILPIN: Trish Kilpin, T-R-I-S-H K-I-L-P-I-N, director, Wisconsin DOJ, Office of School Safety.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, Sally from WRP. Thank you.
REPORTER: Yeah. This question is for Director Wiers.
I know that the school was in the last phase of classes before winter break. What are your schools plans for the rest of the week? And what kind of community processing, understanding that you might not yet --
WIERS: Sure.
REPORTER: -- do you have in the works?
WIERS: So at this time, the school is a crime scene. So, the students nor staff can be on site. We want to make sure that we work in tandem with Madison police and have them do everything that they need to do. So we will abide by their standards. And when they say we can be back in the building, we'll return back to the building.
We do have a goal of trying to get our staff together here early in the week, and then try to have some community opportunities for our students to reconnect before the holidays. Whether we will return to classes this -- this week, because this was our last week, we were done on Friday. It's still to be determined.
I do know that there is talk of a public vigil down at the Capitol. We are so grateful that we have this amazing support from the community. And so we thank them for that. Our families will, I would guess, participate in that. And I'm sure that as we move forward, we will have more plans of what we will do specifically for them.
Our focus today was the reunification of getting kids to their families.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't have any more, Whitney from CNN.
WHITNEY WILD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Through the parent's cooperation, and I know you're reluctant to talk about motive at this point because there's so much to know, but have they given you any indication that they know, perhaps what the motive?
BARNES: They're still in interview. So we don't know what they're telling our detectives. I can only tell you that because they're still in interviewed, because they're still talking. We are getting cooperation from them as to the specifics of what they're saying, we don't know that. One of the things that we try to do that we've learned doing interviews with people who are cooperative, is not to interrupt. And so I would not want to interrupt the interview just to give information. We'll come back a little later. We can have more information. We'll do that. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rob from Fox 9.
All right. Adam from CBS Milwaukee.
REPORTER: What can you tell us about whether these victims were targeted at all? And was there are there cameras inside the school?
BARNES: Yeah, I think whether they were targeted or not would speak to motivation. And we don't know that answer just yet. But I do believe the director stated that there were cameras inside the building, public space cameras from.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: James from --
[19:05:01]
REPORTER: How many shots roughly were fired, you know?
BARNES: No, we did not know that. That will be a part of the forensic investigation. Our crime scene investigators will be going through that. And we have also have been offered help from the FBI if we needed additional help to actually process the scene as well. But right now, that's a question that we really cannot answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nate from WISN?
REPORTER: Is anyone in custody and is there any reason to think that there was anybody else involved?
BARNES: There is not. No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brett from Fox 6.
REPORTER: Is there any other weapons or any notes left behind?
BARNES: Not that I'm prepared to share now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bob from ABC News? Good?
REPORTER: Yeah. We were wondering where the mayor is right now and what is more important for her than attending this press conference?
BARNES: She was here earlier. She gave her statements, which I thought were very appropriate. We're going to do multiple press conferences. And so we want the focus to be on information for the community that's going to come from the police department.
So that is what I will tell you. She was here earlier and maybe you missed it, but she was here.
I also want to say that we --
REPORTER: Does she come later tonight?
BARNES: I do not know that. I do not know that. But I do know she was here when we had our main press conference. Additionally, we have been receiving a lot of calls. I was on the phone with Attorney General Merrick Garland. I know we did receive a call from the president and his office and several others from around the state, including the governor, and so we thank them for their interest in that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Mills from NewsNation?
REPORTER: This is for Barbara. Do you guys have a school resource officer? And then also, too, is the school one level, two level when you walk in, what's -- what's that look like?
WIERS: I'm sorry.
BARNES: Sure.
WIERS: (INAUDIBLE)
BARNES: Yeah. Yeah. Two levels.
WIERS: Sure.
So we do not have a school resource officer. Again, as a small school that is outside of our possibilities right now. We are a two level school, so there's two tiers to us. We are shaped as a giant l we have a main entrance through that is secured during the school day. So anyone coming in after school hours -- when school starts at 8:05 would need to buzz in and be let in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll let Chief Barnes close this out and then we'll be back to you.
BARNES: So again, I want to thank everyone for being here. Chief, everyone, for all the support.
This has been really a day of collaboration, a day of preparation, a day in the making that we hoped would not happen. Again, as someone who is a was a former public school teacher, teaching history for four years in a public high school, as someone who's a father, this is a tough day for me. It's a tough day for our community. It's a tough day for everyone.
It's a sad day. It's a day that will be certainly etched in the collective memories of everyone in Madison, and just another example of what -- what can happen in our country. We have to do better. We have to collaborate with each other. We have to understand the warning signs, and we have to use our resources when we see things that may be going wrong, or someone who may be going off the beaten path.
That's the charge really, to our country now, and we have to do a better job of taking care of each other. And so, all children have been reunified with their parents, and these children are now the latest group of survivors of a school shooting. This time, unfortunately, in Madison, Wisconsin.
We will try to come back around 8:30 with additional information for our fourth press conference of the day. Thank you for being here.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
You're seeing that news conference just wrapping up after a deadly shooting at a Christian school in Madison, Wisconsin. The student and a teacher were killed. Four others right now remain hospitalized. Two, we understand are in critical condition.
Sources say a female student opened fire. Authorities say, as I said, two of those students are fighting for their lives in critical condition. So we know that two individuals were shot and killed. Two are in critical at this hour.
The parents of the shooter, we just learned in that press conference are actually, as I speak, in an interview right now with police. They are cooperating, answering questions about their child right now. Here's what we know that the shooting took place just before 11:00 a.m. local time. That's Central Time. Just as students were beginning to start their final full week of classes before winter break.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DISPATCHER: Got a call coming in at Abundant Life Christian Church, 4901 for engine five and medic five for a shooter just advising someone was shot.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
[19:10:08]
BURNETT: And for the first time, we are now hearing from a student who was inside the school as the shots were fired.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Did you hear gunshots?
ADLER JEAN-CHARLES, ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL STUDENT: Yeah, I heard.
REPORTER: Tell me what happened.
JEAN-CHARLES: We heard them. And then some people started crying. And then we just waited until the police came. And then they escorted us out to the church.
REPORTER: How many gunshots did you hear?
JEAN-CHARLES: I heard two.
REPORTER: And what were you thinking? What are you thinking now?
JEAN-CHARLES: I was scared. Why did they do that? Why? (END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Whitney Wild is OUTFRONT live from Madison, Wisconsin.
And, Whitney, I know you were just in that press conference. You were the one who got the information about the shooter's parents right now being in an interview with police. What more are you learning?
WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, there are still many details left to learn. But what we know at this point is that this teenager, according to a law enforcement source, was a female, a 17 year old who died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. As you mentioned, police are interviewing the parents as we speak. That is absolutely critical as they try to figure out what the motive was here, Erin.
At this point, Chief Shon Barnes, the chief of the Madison Police Department, could not describe in detail the motive. I asked if the parents are supplying that information. He was reluctant to say that they were because the most important thing, he says in an interview like that is to just let the parents talk and keep that conversation free flowing.
The critical details, Erin, that we did learn at this press conference for the first time all day is what kind of security protocols that school has in place. And it's really a lesson for schools even beyond Madison, because the representative of the school here said that they took advantage of Department of Justice safety grants to help them beef up their security. And as part of that, Erin, they were able to upload blueprints of their school. And so when police arrived, they were able to download those blueprints of the school immediately, which significantly helps a police response.
We know that police response was immediate, Erin. It was within three minutes that call came in at 10:57 a.m. Police were inside that building by 11:00 a.m. law enforcement, did not fire any shots, according to police. Again, there's a law enforcement source saying that that suspect died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right, Whitney, thank you very much, on the ground there.
Juliette Kayyem is with us now, former assistant secretary at the Department of Homeland Security. Tim Clemente, former FBI counterterrorism agent. And Mary Ellen O'Toole, former senior FBI profiler.
So thanks very much to all of you.
So, Tim, you heard that press conference and the police chief saying that the shooters parents are, as we speak, in an interview with police. They don't want to talk about what they've said so far because they are they don't want to interrupt the interview. And that that interview is still ongoing. What stands out to you from what you've heard here in these past few minutes from officials? TIM CLEMENTE, FORMER FBI COUNTERTERRORISM AGENT: Well, what you just
said about what the Chief Barnes said, the interview is vitally important right now. This is where you're going to learn whether the parents had any inkling and either did or did not do anything about that.
But one of the things I took from that press conference, besides the chief saying that he had he was not prepared to answer about whether or not there was a note or anything left behind kind of leads me to believe there was.
But also what the DOJ official from Wisconsin said. The woman that was in charge of school safety, I think her name was Kilpin -- Trish Kilpin.
BURNETT: Yes.
CLEMENTE: She said something vitally important and that was that these things are always preceded by actions and interest and searches and other information that they're bleeding out.
But unless it gets ignored, it can't be stopped. It gets ignored every time, over and over and over again. And if we keep ignoring these things from our own kids, from students, from fellow classmates we'll never prevent these things. And that's the only thing that prevents them is seeing something and actually saying something about somebody's behavior changing.
BURNETT: Yes, she said 82 percent of the that somebody, somebody knew in 82 percent of these situations. And unfortunately there are a lot of these situations. 88 in the past year so far this year alone.
Mary Ellen, we are learning. So again, the parents of the shooter right now, in an interview with police, all we understand is that the shooter was at the school at the beginning of the day. Law enforcement officials just say that, and a law enforcement official told CNN that the shooter was a female student at that school and was a teenager.
So, Mary Ellen, just with the basic facts that we know, and obviously, the question mark out there about the possibility of a note that Tim just alluded to, how unusual is a female shooter?
MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER SENIOR FBI PROFILER & FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Extremely unusual. We just simply don't have that many. It's all anecdotal. So we can't -- we can't even do any kind of statistical analysis. It's just so very unusual. Without exception, the vast majority of these shooters are males.
BURNETT: And, Juliette, you know, in the context of how unusual it is to see a female shooter.
[19:15:01]
This person obviously hurt eight people, killed a teacher, killed another student. Two other students are in critical condition tonight, and we don't yet know the identities of any of these people who have so needlessly lost their lives or are fighting for their lives.
Tonight, the scale of this, though, Juliette, seems to indicate that this wasn't about a conflict with one person, at least just from the very basic information that we have.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: That's -- the evidence so far, leads us to believe that we don't know why she -- when she turned the gun on herself in terms of what did she hear, police? Was this part of the plan or did she target someone and therefore was done with her work?
And I think what's been amazing in this sort of in the regard in regards to this shooting over the course of the day, I've been with you since, since we first heard the news with the network, is how transparent the police and all officials have been. It's very helpful to a community to believe that, that they are getting the answers that they need. And what seems like the inexplicable.
And also what's interesting from a government PR -- government communications perspective is they are using these press conferences as teachable moments. Tim picked up on one of them that in terms of the families, in terms of the DOJ official. Basically, these things are always known and we have to get serious about these interventions because otherwise these kids are going into schools and harming others.
The other was earlier in the day when the police chief just basically didn't care about anyone's politics. He basically just said, this is not only a school, it's also a religious school. These should be safe places, and we need to honestly get our act together as a country if we keep doing this.
And I was surprised how quickly the officials -- not the politicians, went to these moments.
BURNETT: Yeah, it went right there. And as you point out, Tim, when she said 82 percent of these situations, somebody knows. I mean, that is stunning when you think about the horrific, these horrific situations.
Thank you all very much.
As we await more information, we get more, you know, we learn more about that parent interview happening right now. We're, of course, going to bring it to you right away.
We also have breaking news in the judge in Trump's hush money case, a significant ruling just coming out of that here in just the past couple of minutes, ruling Trump does not have immunity from his hush money conviction because he was convicted there. So what does this mean for Trump?
Plus, breaking news, a massive Russian retreat. Tonight, U.S. officials are telling CNN that Putin is now pulling his forces from major bases that are key to his presence in the Mediterranean, Europe and the Middle East. As the former Syrian president is breaking his silence, well report from Moscow tonight.
And exclusive this hour, a British writer who spoke to the CEO assassin suspect Luigi Mangione. Frequently, they talked for months before the murder opens up tonight about why Mangione's life may have taken a dark turn. He's OUTFRONT tonight in his first television interview.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:21:52]
BURNETT: Breaking news: the judge in Trump's New York hush money trial moments ago just ruling that the president-elect does not have immunity from his historic conviction. That was on 34 felonies. It comes in spite of the Supreme Court's sweeping presidential immunity ruling. Now, that, of course, had been a major victory for Trump.
But tonight, Judge Juan Merchan says it doesn't apply in New York.
Paula Reid is OUTFRONT. She obviously covered that trial extensively day in and day out, Paula.
So what is Merchan exactly saying? And then what happens next from here then?
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, here, Merchan not buying an argument from the Trump legal team that they always knew. This was kind of a long shot, but they argued after the Supreme Courts immunity decision this summer, this conviction should be tossed out because the summer not only did the Supreme Court say that presidents are entitled to immunity for official acts, it also ruled that official acts cannot be used as evidence to support other charges. And after that opinion, Trump's lawyers argued that in the New York hush money case that certain pieces of evidence that came in constituted official acts, for example, conversations that Trump had with Hope Hicks.
So Trump's lawyers argued that, look, if you can't bring in this evidence, the entire conviction should be tossed.
But here tonight, Merchan making it clear he does not agree, saying that the entirety of this case related to unofficial conduct. Now, my sources tell me that they will appeal this. They weren't sure that this was going to go their way, but they told me they're going to continue to appeal this decision.
But, Erin, there's another avenue that they're pursuing to try to get this case dismissed. That is a formal motion to dismiss, arguing that as president-elect, Trump should not be facing any state level proceedings. And that is a question that Judge Juan Merchan did not answer tonight.
BURNETT: All right, and obviously a crucial one for answers. Thank you so much, Paula.
And we have more breaking news. The FBI and New Jersey state police are pleading with the public to not shoot down those suspected drones. This comes as President-elect Trump is accusing President Biden of covering up the truth about these drone sightings, sightings that have now been reported in at least six states across the East Coast. And as the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security tonight say that they are deploying detection technology over New York.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: The government knows what is happening. I think they'd be better off saying what it is our military knows and our president knows. And for some reason, they want to keep people in suspense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Pete Muntean is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: The drone hysteria is soaring as federal authorities are scrambling to tamp down false alarms, breeding conspiracy theories online. Fanning the latest fears, reports of unmanned aerial systems over secure Wright-Patterson Air Force Base near Dayton, Ohio.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All aircraft use extreme caution. Patterson Class Delta is now closed for heavy UAS activity.
MUNTEAN: Pentagon officials now say the Ohio case is not connected to possible drone sightings in a half dozen states.
Even still, President-elect Donald Trump at Mar-a-Lago doubled down on conspiracy theories after Alex Jones and Joe Rogan amplified claims that drones over New Jersey are looking for a stolen dirty bomb.
[19:25:03]
TRUMP: Something strange is going on. For some reason, they don't want to tell the people.
MUNTEAN: Federal aviation rules allow drones to fly legally, so long as they stay below 400ft and away from airports, airplanes and stadiums, Biden administration officials tell CNN that of the almost 1 million drones registered in the U.S., 8,000 might be flying at any one given time.
And, quote, we haven't seen evidence of anything non-compliant, but that has not stopped lawmakers from demanding new technology to help detect hostile drones, defense officials now confirmed to CNN that the government is sending drone tracking systems to a pair of military installations in New Jersey.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): If the technology exists for a drone to make it up into the sky, there certainly is the technology that can track the craft with precision and determine what the heck is going on. MUNTEAN: New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy says he's been briefed by
the FBI now that it and the Department of Homeland Security say most cases of possible drones are, in fact manned aircraft.
Science writer Mick West is debunking purported drone videos online. New Jersey airspace is some of the busiest in the country, with videos surfacing from under Newark, Teterboro and New York flight paths.
MICK WEST, WRITER AND UAP ANALYST: You get the details, the date, the time and the location. And you can actually look up what was in the sky at that point and look at what direction they were looking in. And you can see, you know, that it was actually just a plane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MUNTEAN (on camera): Tonight, we're getting this new figure from the National Security Council. The FBI says it's taken in about 5,000 tips of purported drone sightings since this frenzy began, but has deemed only about 100 of those sightings legitimate enough for follow up. There is also this fixation on drones, leading to a concern for commercial flights, and the FAA is now investigating laser strikes, laser pointers being pointed at planes from the ground. The FAA says it's investigating those incidents in New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania. Erin.
BURNETT: All right, Pete, thank you very much.
And now, Democratic Congressman Adam Smith, he's the ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee. He's been briefed about the drone sightings.
So, Congressman, you've been briefed. You hear President-elect Trump say that the pentagon must know more. In your briefings, have you gotten all the answers? Do you feel like you know everything that's going on and why it's going on? Who's responsible and that they've told you everything?
REP. ADAM SMITH (D-WA): Well, first of all, nobody knows everything that's going on. But -- but three quick points about this one. The hysteria is dangerous. As has been pointed out, a lot of these sightings are manned aircraft. Also, there's a ton of drones up there. There's a ton of things going on.
So, you know, the hysteria around, you know, it being a plot around a dirty bomb or, or an Iranian mothership off the coast, that's all completely made up.
Second thing is that the U.S. government could have been a little bit more open and honest up front about what was going on here and about the concerns about it, because this is a major problem. There are so many of these drones now that they are potentially dangerous. Someone could have a bad intent. What are we doing about it? So those are the three ways.
BURNETT: When you say nobody knows, do you? Are you does that mean you think that the U.S. government legitimately doesn't know about fully what's happening here?
SMITH: Well, what I said was nobody knows everything for a very simple reason. You send these drones up despite what President-elect Trump said, you really can't track them past a certain point. They fly at a low altitude, so our electronic surveillance doesn't pick them up.
And what you have is visual recognition. And then you have to have -- you have to be able to tap in to the system to, to find out what's going on with the drone. A lot of these will be difficult to trace and detect, and that's not the government hiding the ball. That's just a fact of how these things work.
BURNETT: So let me ask you one more thing here, if I may, before you go. And that is what we were just reporting the breaking news about Judge Merchan. He's ruling Trump's hush money conviction in New York should not be dismissed because of the Supreme Courts presidential immunity decision, saying that it falls under private communications as opposed to official acts. Yet what's your reaction to that news?
Obviously, that could be its not going to change anything for him right now, but it could be significant. It comes ahead of sentencing and obviously something that would take effect after his time in the White House.
SMITH: Look, it's a good ruling. There's a thousand different things going on here. But there is reason for concern about President Trump and his team. Broadly speaking, thinking that they are above the law and that rules do not apply to them.
I could walk through a thousand examples, but we all know that. So that is concerning. We should not have people in this country who are who are above the law and above rules.
And it's good that one court said, yeah, that's a problem. The specifics of this case notwithstanding the basic principle that we are a nation of rules and laws, not of individuals who can do whatever they want, no matter their position, I think is an important thing to restate.
[19:30:02]
BURNETT: All right. Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
SMITH: Thanks, Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Adam Smith there.
And next, Syria's former president who is holed up in Russia breaking his silence, although still unseen. We'll take you to Moscow.
Plus, a CNN exclusive. Tonight, I'm going to speak to a writer who was speaking with the alleged CEO assassin for months. What? He told him about corporate America health care, and why he was cutting himself off from friends and family. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Breaking news, Putin has begun a large scale and significant withdrawal from Syria tonight. That's according to two U.S. officials. We know Russia has two main bases in Syria, an air base in Latakia and his only Mediterranean port in Tartus. Putin has so far been silent about what's happening in Syria, but we can see the troop and equipment movements.
And tonight, the man who was running Syria as Putin's protected dictator, Bashar al Assad, is apparently speaking out for the first time since he fled to Moscow.
Fred Pleitgen is OUTFRONT for Moscow tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): As Syrians celebrate the demise of the Assad regime, the deposed dictator, seemingly delusional, apparently speaking out for the first time since fleeing to Russia.
[19:35:12]
His statement on the social media page of the former Syrian presidency, appearing to be from Assad himself, datelined, Moscow. I have never sought positions for personal gain, but have always considered myself as a custodian of a national project, the statement says.
This after Syrians ransacking Assad's palace discovered the luxury the dictator and his family were living in -- including a garage with dozens of luxury cars, including Ferraris and a Lamborghini.
Assad's wife Asma, also known for her lavish outfits, once called, quote, a rose in the desert by "Vogue" magazine.
But Assad, also admitting, as rebels were closing in on his palace, it was Russian leader Vladimir Putin who bailed him out. Assad fleeing to Russia's air base in Syria as he claims to oversee combat operations but then, quote, it became clear that our forces had completely withdrawn from the battle lines and that the last army positions had fallen, his statement reads. With no viable means of leaving the base, Moscow requested that the bases command arrange for an immediate evacuation to Russia, on the evening of Sunday, December 8th.
That was not only the end of Assad's rule in Syria, but possibly also the beginning of the end of Russia's military footprint in Syria, as Russian forces have been seen apparently flying some of their equipment out of their Air Force Base.
And Israel is now busy bombing Syrian military installations like this naval base in Latakia. Russian Middle East experts warning about the huge loss to Russia in the wake of Assad's fall.
When I saw these ships with our weapons burning, I simply felt like crying. This expert says, these are our weapons, our gear, after all, and our help to the Syrians to protect their statehood.
But those now in charge in Syria are working on a new statehood without Assad, the former dictator, seemingly grappling with his loss of power.
When the state falls into the hands of terrorism and the ability to make a meaningful contribution is lost, the statement says, any position becomes void of purpose, rendering its occupation meaningless.
Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: And Ian Bremmer, renowned global affairs analyst, founder of Eurasia Group, is OUTFRONT now.
So, Ian, you know, when you hear Fred talking about the situation here with Assad in Moscow. Assad failed in Syria for Putin, obviously. But I know that you believe that Putin will protect Assad, even though, of course, we haven't seen him yet in Moscow, right? We're now hearing from him on this post, but we haven't actually seen him.
But tell me why you think Putin will protect him.
IAN BREMMER, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER OF EURASIA GROUP & GZERO MEDIA: Well, Putin doesn't have that many friends around the world, and he does want to show that if you're going to line up with the Russian dictator, if you're going to, you know, sort of provide sort of the diplomatic engagement, the space for military bases and things go badly. Well, your country might not do very well, but Putin will take care of you. Putin will take care of your family.
That's an important message for someone like Kim Jong-un in North Korea. That's an important message for the IRGC and the supreme leader in Iran. It's a very important message for President Lukashenko. For example, in Belarus.
So, I mean, you know, you look at these countries around the world and the dictators, including in some African states that have been lined up with the Wagner Group, lined up with Putin and sometimes, you know, they may last for a long time, but their -- their regimes can fall very, very quickly.
And if you want to maintain that support, if you're Putin, then you need to make sure that you follow through on it when suddenly the country collapses.
I'm sure there's no love right now for Assad in the Kremlin. This guy has his embarrassing Putin mightily. But Putin plays the long game, of course, and that's what he's doing here, Erin.
BURNETT: Well, it's a fascinating analysis. So the bottom line, though for Putin, obviously, he's been gaining ground in Ukraine and he's hoping for a settlement there. And he expects one at this point. That's what the President-elect Trump has indicated that he supports as well.
How big, though, is this loss? I mean, how precarious is this moment for Putin with the blow that he has taken in Syria?
BREMMER: It's not precarious for him domestically. It's not like he's facing anything close to the threat that he faced when Mr. Prigozhin launched his mutiny with troops and tanks rolling up to Moscow, that was the biggest actual threat.
[19:40:05]
And Putin was able to dispatch it without too much trouble. And with nobody that was defecting from him among his ministers, among his generals, among his oligarchs, this is nothing like that. But it is a major embarrassment. This is an important ally that's been with Russia for decades and decades. As you mentioned, two military bases that they had to flee from. There's a reason why Putin is not talking about this domestically. This is a major embarrassment for him.
BURNETT: Yeah. All right. Well, Ian, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
And next, we have an OUTFRONT exclusive for months. My next guest was speaking with the alleged CEO assassin, texts and video. So what did he say? Just before vanishing?
Plus, RFK, Jr. on the Hill today pressed about his controversial views.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:45:02]
BURNETT: And tonight, an OUTFRONT exclusive. My next guest is Gurwinder Bhogal, a British journalist who is friends with Luigi Mangione, the suspect in the murder of the UnitedHealthcare CEO.
Vogel spoke exclusively with -- extensively, I'm sorry, with Mangione, starting in April of this year when Mangione started to lose contact with other family and friends.
The two met after Mangione became a fan of Bhogal's blog, which covers everything from politics to self-help, and they exchange messages. For months, they had a nearly two hour video conversation.
Now all of this ended in June, when Mangione stopped communicating with Bhogal.
In his first TV interview, Gurwinder Bhogal is OUTFRONT exclusively.
And, Gurwinder, I appreciate your time. So you began exchanging emails with Mangione in April, and I know you also had hours long video call with him in May. But can I start off with when he first reached out to you and then you start interacting and exchanging many, many messages, what was your impression of him? GURWINDER BHOGAL, BRITISH JOURNALIST: He seemed like a really down to earth guy. I mean, he was polite, he was thoughtful. He was open- minded. He seemed very curious. Curious was a very particular thing about him.
He always wanted to know more about things. And, you know, sometimes I'd make an obscure reference to something, and he would tell me. He'd tell me to tell him more about it. So he was very interested in learning, and he was very interested in self-improvement as well, like whenever I would sort of make a statement about, say, for example, human psychology, he would ask me how he could apply that to his life.
So he was always looking for practical takeaways to things and constantly looking for self-improvement.
BURNETT: Which is -- which is very interesting. I know that he had talked to you about reading the four hour workweek, a book that had been a bestseller for, you know, ways to improve his life. He also, I know in conversations and as you know, he had posted about Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber. He had talked about him in other posts. But I know that in your exchanges, you also had a chance to talk to him about Kaczynski.
What did he say to you?
BHOGAL: So one of the things about Luigi was that he was afraid of losing agency. He was afraid that technology was going to take peoples agency away. He actually believed that this was already happening.
And so he became interested in Kaczynski's work for this reason, because Kaczynski also believed this. And a lot of the conversation that we had was really about, you know, how technology is taking people's agency away from them and how -- how we can sort of restore it, how we can reclaim our agency, how we can reclaim control over our lives.
So that was something that resonated with -- with him about Kaczynski's work.
BURNETT: So I want to ask you more about that. But first, when you're talking about, you know, his -- his view about humans losing agency, I know one of the exchanges you shared with us when he's talking about being in Japan, and he had spent time there and he's talking about NPC behavior, which stands for non-player characters, which appear in video games.
And NPCs tend to behave very predictably, right? They don't think for themselves. So he and in his exchange with you, he writes,: Japan is peak NPC-ville. Scary lack of free will in this country.
I'll have to tell you a story from my morning today, where I saw a dude have a seizure on the street and run two blocks to the police station. They followed me to help but refused to walk across any empty streets if the stoplight was red, even while the guy was seizing on the ground. Luigi. This is his, I guess, his view about the -- the lack of connection
that people could have for each other. Can you tell me more about how important this -- this overall topic was in his psyche? It took, I'd say, about 90 percent of the two hour conversation we had was about sort of the effects of technology on agency, and not just technology, but culture as well.
But he, you know, he believed culture was downstream of technology. He believed that it was the technological developments that were causing the cultural changes that were resulting in things like what he would call NPC behaviors. So, you know, he believed one of the amongst the things that he believed was taking people's agency away from them was shallow entertainment.
He really resonated with an article that id written called the intellectual obesity crisis, which is about useless information and how we are addicted to useless information, because it's like shallow entertainment. And he was very concerned with things like online porn, like he believed that a lot of men were not going out and meeting women because they were addicted to porn. He was really concerned about video games.
He believed that people were not making accomplishments.
[19:50:02]
They were not accomplishing things in the real world because they were they were getting sort of these dopamine hits from video games, and he also believed social media addiction was a big problem that was taking people's agency away from them as well. And he feared this was happening to him as well. And one of the topics of the conversation, I mean, was about he wanted advice from me on how he could sort of reclaim some agency.
BURNETT: And so, he -- this is he reaches out to you and you have a video call. And I know the video call went nearly two hours. This was in May, which is really important timing because this is right before, he sort of went off the grid or went missing in early July, as far as we understand, it.
Was there anything in that call that now you see what has happened stands out to you in retrospect?
BHOGAL: I mean, there are a couple of things which kind of make a bit more sense now. But I mean, I can't say that I would have really predicted his behavior from that, from that video call. You know, he did allude to his frustrations with the U.S. healthcare system. We -- there was a brief exchange we had where he compared, you know, he said that the U.S. healthcare system was really expensive. And I told him about the NHS because here in the UK, we have a free healthcare system.
And he kind of seemed to idolize the UK's healthcare system. And I told him it wasn't quite simple because although it was great, I'm a big fan of universal healthcare. I said that it's not quite as simple as that because we have big waiting lists in the UK, so, you know, there's a bit of a trade off.
But I did say that the UK system was better than the U.S. one, and he agreed with that.
BURNETT: So his mother, when I'm talking about the timing here and I know you talked to him for hours in May, his mother said to police that she last spoke to him on July 1st, and obviously that's very soon after your call with him.
Do you have any sense of what might have led to him at that point, distancing himself from his family and friends and actually distancing seems like too light of a word, right? I mean, he really, completely stopped communicating with people in his life.
BHOGAL: There was a part of the conversation where he said that the people around him were not on his wavelength, and he was eager for a community of like minded people. And that was one of the reasons why he wanted to talk to me, because he felt that I was a kindred spirit, and he just said that the people around him, he couldn't really talk to them because like, you know, he said he was, that they were on a different wavelength.
I don't remember much of that part of the conversation, other than that statement that the people around him were not on the same wavelength as him. And again, he felt that the same was true in Japan as well. He felt like he just didn't really connect with the people in Japan.
You know, he went to Japan because he really enjoyed Japanese culture, and he was a big fan of the Japanese sort of honor, the sense of honor, but he felt like it had it was a very sort of isolated place. And he may have been lonely. I don't know, he may have been lonely.
BURNETT: Gurwinder, thank you very much. I really appreciate your taking the time.
BHOGAL: Thank you. Erin.
BURNETT: Next, RFK, Jr. dodging questions on Capitol Hill as he tries to calm fears about his controversial views and goals.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:57:31]
BURNETT: Tonight, RFK, Jr. dodging questions on Capitol Hill about his vaccine views, refusing to speak to reporters about his comments connecting vaccines to autism. Kennedy did, however, affirm -- this is pretty basic to even have to say -- but affirmed the need for the polio vaccine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Should the polio vaccine be revoked?
REPORTER: -- who were worried you're going to take away their vaccine?
REPORTER: Should. the polio vaccine be revoked?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR., HEALTH SECRETARY NOMINEE: I'm all for the polio vaccine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Tom Foreman is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: I think you're going to find that Bobby is much -- he's a very rational guy. I found him to be very rational. You're not going to lose the -- the polio vaccine.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president elect is playing defense amid new reports that a lawyer tied to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. petitioned the government to revoke approval of the polio vaccine, a move Kennedy himself could approve if confirmed, to lead the department of health and human services.
KENNEDY: I'm not going to take away anybody's vaccines. I've never been an anti-vaccine.
FOREMAN: Kennedy is trying to calm fears about his views and goals, but his statements over the years have raised alarms.
KENNEDY: I would be against mandates at all --
INTERVIEWER: For any vaccines?
KENNEDY: For any vaccine.
FOREMAN: He's pushed unproven claims that vaccines cause autism. He's compared U.S. vaccine policies to those in a totalitarian state like Nazi Germany, for which he later apologized. And he's disparaged then- President Donald Trump's handling of the COVID pandemic.
KENNEDY: We had the worst record of any country in the world.
FOREMAN: That's not true, say top medical researchers. But vaccines aren't the only issue he faces with Republican senators he must win over.
Kennedy has insisted on inauguration day, the Trump White House will advise all U.S. water systems to remove fluoride from public water, which Trump said sounds okay despite decades of evidence showing fluoride radically lowers tooth decay.
Kennedy has made false claims about the ingredients in Froot Loops and calls a lot of American foods poisonous, and many abortion rights opponents simply don't trust him, including former Vice President Mike Pence, who says Kennedy's nomination is an abrupt departure from the pro-life record of our administration and should be deeply concerning. But the Kennedy pedigree still has power. And even with all the
concerns about the nominee, some of his complaints about the quality of food and the policies behind food safety standards are resonating with Democrats.
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): Is RFK right about a lot of the challenges? Yeah, I've heard him say a lot of things that are absolutely right.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN (on camera): Donald Trump said during the campaign that he would let Kennedy go wild on health care policy, and that's not helping him. Now, as senators who are afraid, Erin, that he might do just that.
BURNETT: Yeah, absolutely.
All right. Tom Foreman, thank you so very much.
And, of course, thanks so much to all of you for joining us. See here tomorrow.
"AC360" starts now.
