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Erin Burnett Outfront
House Panel Releases Bombshell Report In Matt Gaetz Probe; Mangione In Court; Bill Clinton Hospitalized. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired December 23, 2024 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:46]
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
The sordid text messages. The House Ethics Committee releases its long awaited report on Matt Gaetz. The evidence they reveal and a member of the committee is our guest.
Plus, Luigi Mangione, accused of assassinating a CEO, back in court to enter a plea today, with his attorney blasting the police and New York City's mayor for using her client as, quote, political fodder.
And the breaking news, former President Bill Clinton in the hospital tonight. We're just getting new information about his health.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
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BOLDUAN: Good evening, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan, in for Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, sex, drugs and a minor. A bombshell report released by the House Ethics Committee, reams of evidence released, including text messages that reveal the first -- for the first time, the full scope of former Congressman Matt Gaetz's sex scandal. According to the report put out just this morning, Gaetz, who was Trump's nominee for attorney general before stepping aside, allegedly paid multiple women for sex, including a 17-year-old, while he was a sitting member of Congress and also did illegal drugs while in office.
Well, tonight, a slew of text messages that suggests Gaetz wasn't always so willing to pay up. There's a lot here.
Here's one exchange. A woman writing: So I'm not going to be taking care of this -- I'm not going to be taking care of for last week? Gaetz allegedly responds: I gave you 250 today. I figured redacted would pay for your Uber. Last week, you gave me a drive by.
In another exchange between women who say they met with Gaetz, a woman starts complaining in a message this, quote, Matt never paid me. How much did he pay you? The other woman responds: WTF. He gave me 400.
And Gaetz's then-girlfriend also messaging with some of the women who were typically paid for sex, according to this report. Quote: the guys, Representative Gaetz and Mr. Greenberg, his associate, wanted me to share that they are a little limited in their cash flow this weekend. Matt was like, if it can be more of a customer appreciation week, dot, dot, dot.
Now again, this is all said to have taken place while Matt Gaetz was a sitting member of Congress. The House Ethics Committee, concluding it, found substantial evidence that, quote, in 2017, Representative Gaetz engaged in sexual activity with a 17-year-old girl. It goes on to say that during the period 2017 to 2019, Representative Gaetz used or possessed illegal drugs, including cocaine and ecstasy, on multiple occasions.
We'll note that Gaetz has never been charged and he denies all the allegations, and the committee found that the 17 year old did not tell Gaetz she was a minor, nor did Gaetz ask her age.
With all of this coming out, Matt Gaetz tried today to block the report from being released, unsuccessfully filing a lawsuit this morning and acknowledging this evening that the point is moot since the report is now out.
Tonight, Gaetz is responding, though, posting online in part this: There is a reason they did this to me in a Christmas Eve-Eve report and not in a courtroom of any kind where I could present evidence and challenge witnesses.
Katelyn Polantz is OUTFRONT, live in Washington all over, as this was released this morning.
Katelyn, there's a lot of detailed evidence in this report. What more are you learning?
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Kate, not just detailed evidence. What the committee says is substantial evidence that backs up what they believe are violations of the ethics of congress, of the ethics of the conduct of somebody who would be a sitting representative. And it is a laundry list that the committee puts right at the top of their report, saying that they believe that some of this conduct included engaging in prostitution, statutory rape, illicit drug use, impermissible gifts, and then obstruction of Congress.
The committee goes on not just to show their work, showing 11 pages of ledgers of payments that they were able to track down. Also, text messages, as you were mentioning, but they highlight what women told them in testimony. Women coming in to speak to the committee, including that woman who was 17 at the time she was having sex with Gaetz, she testified.
[19:05:00]
And they say that many of the women interviewed by the committee, they knew that there was a clear expectation, a general expectation for sex. One of the women who spoke to the committee said she was paid more than $5,000 by Gaetz in two years while he was sitting in Congress. So the committee is putting this all together and saying he may not have been charged with a federal crime. He may not have evidence.
There is no evidence that we're seeing of federal sex trafficking violations, but there surely is something to be seen here, some violations of ethics, for someone who was a sitting member of Congress and still a prominent voice in the conservative movement behind Donald Trump.
BURENTT: And as I was mentioning, Katelyn, Gaetz tried to put up a fight this morning. There was like a flurry of activity of him trying to fight the release of this as it was being leaked out. And then what?
POLANTZ: Well, the committee says that it's possible he implicated federal criminal laws of false statements and obstruction for Congress. They believe that they were obstructing -- that he was obstructing them. It might not be a criminal violation, they say, but over the course of this 19-month investigation that the committee was doing that culminated in the release of this report today, that he was deflecting, deterring, misleading them, essentially just not responding to the request, trying to push them off, saying they're too burdensome and barely giving them any information as they were seeking it -- Kate.
BOLDUAN: Katelyn, thanks so much for the reporting, putting it all together for us. I really appreciate it.
Now OUTFRONT with us now is Democratic Congressman Glenn Ivey of Maryland. He is a member of the House Ethics Committee.
Congressman, thank you very much for your time tonight.
The contents of this report are very serious. I'm hearing that from Republicans and Democrats alike today.
What is the most damning thing in this report, in your opinion?
REP. GLENN IVEY (D-MD): Well, I think you covered a lot of it. You know, certainly the allegations or the findings with respect to the sex with the 17-year-old are very powerful. And, you know, the prostitution issues and the like.
I mean, there's -- there's a lot there. So it's, kind of, overwhelming. I think in some ways when you read it all and put it all together, and our staff did a great job of doing a very thorough investigation and bringing us the information so we could do that, put it in the report and allow the public to see it now.
BOLDUAN: Gaetz has responded to all of this, saying he did nothing wrong. He denies the allegations. He filed this lawsuit that I mentioned this morning, essentially trying to block its release, accusing the committee essentially of defaming him and engaging the way he put it was an unprecedented overreach that threatens fundamental constitutional rights, and releasing the report.
How do you respond to him tonight? IVEY: Well, I think the point is that, you know, the report is out
there now and the public can see it and review it and decide for themselves what they think. And, you know, your lead in report mentioned, you know, other possibilities as far as, you know, whether it's Department of Justice or local law enforcement taking a look at these things, too, it's available for them as well.
So, you know, Mr. Gaetz has the right. He's got a First Amendment rights, just like anybody else. He's got a very big platform as well. He's got the right to say his, you know, his position and give his points of view.
And the public can take a listen to all of it and, you know, draw their own conclusions.
BOLDUAN: I mean, I'm sure people know your background, but before being in public office, I mean, you were a states attorney. You have a long, long career in law.
Do you think that local law enforcement, do you think that people should look further into potentially charging him?
IVEY: Well, you're right, I do have a background as a federal prosecutor, state prosecutor and the like. And, you know, one thing that I always tried to do and do now is to leave it to the people who are in those positions to draw their own conclusions. And sometimes they have to take a look at the evidence and decide what they have to prove, as far as the elements for the statutes in their particular state, or with the Department of Justice for the federal offenses.
But there's a lot there. And you know, how they -- how they decide to move forward with it is up to them. But again, I think it was important for the public to see it and also for our colleagues to see it so they understand, you know, what the committee was doing, why it took so long, and how to conform their conduct as they go through this.
One of the important parts about releasing reports is it gives guidance to our colleagues about what's over the line and what's not. And I think we tried to do that here.
BOLDUAN: Real quick. I mean, as I said, he denies the allegations. He also attacked the credibility of the witnesses that spoke to the committee.
Just to put it out there. How confident are you, Congressman, in the fidelity of this report? The conclusions, the evidence you gathered?
IVEY: I mean, I think the evidence is strong. And, you know, the substantial evidence finding that we reached, I think is certainly very well supported by the evidence and the testimony of the people that you mentioned, backed up by the text messages, backed up by the financial records.
[19:10:07] And we put it all together and put it out there. So, you know, that's my take. The bottom line, though, is, you know, what does the public decide? You know, I always thought that sunlight is the best disinfectant.
This is important for us to put that out there and give the public a chance to take a look at Congress as a whole. You know, the Ethics Committee is charged with making sure that were doing the right thing and staying on the right track. But ultimately, we all know that the public has the final word on who comes back and who doesn't. And it's important for them to know that there's stuff like this going on in Washington.
BOLDUAN: On that note, I mean, some members of the ethics panel did not want to put out this report. It's -- as Gaetz is no longer a member of Congress. It was only described as dissenting members in the final page of the report.
But here's what it said in part. The decision to publish a report after his resignation breaks from the committees long standing practice, opens the committee to undue criticism and will be viewed by some as an attempt to weaponize the committee's process. Did you struggle with that?
IVEY: Not so much. I mean, actually, there have been four instances in recent history, you know, one per decade, actually, over the past 40 years, where the committee decided to release a report even after a member had left his service in Congress.
So I think its appropriate here, especially given the nature of the findings that we -- we published here. And I think, as I said, it's important for the public to see it and draw their own conclusions.
So I know there were certainly colleagues that dissented, and they cited one instance that they tried to distinguish, but really didn't say anything about the other three. And I'd note, too, that the Senate's done this as well in certain cases.
So I think we're on pretty firm ground here. And I trust that, you know, our colleagues, we've been able to work together in a very bipartisan way on this committee dating back to, you know, the Santos findings and that investigation. And there's a bunch of other ones that have taken place between now and then, and we've always managed to work well together in a very good and bipartisan way.
And I trust we'll be able to do that moving forward.
BOLDUAN: Congressman Glenn Ivey, thank you for coming on.
IVEY: Thanks for having me.
BOLDUAN: OUTFRONT for us next, the alleged CEO assassin, Luigi Mangione, making a first court appearance on state charges in New York. The man seen smiling at times as his attorney slams the mayor and the police for how she says he's being treated.
Plus, Donald Trump wants to take back a canal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will demand that the Panama Canal be returned to the United States of America in full.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: And tonight, a key ally says the president-elect is serious.
And breaking news, former President Bill Clinton in the hospital tonight. And we have new information on his health.
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[19:17:18]
BOLDUAN: Tonight, CEO shooting suspect Luigi Mangione pleading not guilty to state terror and murder charges in New York, appearing in court today wearing street clothes and in shackles. Outside the court, he had supporters show up for him, waving protest signs that said people over profit. It comes days after Mangione appeared in federal court.
Kara Scannell was in the courtroom today. She's OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Luigi Mangione, accused of shooting and killing UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, arriving to a New York City courtroom today, escorted by police officers, his wrists and ankle shackled.
LUIGI MANGIONE, ACCUSED OF SHOOTING AND KILLING UNITEDHEALTHCARE CEO BRIAN THOMPSON: Not guilty.
SCANNELL: Mangione entering a plea of not guilty to the 11 New York state counts he is facing, which include murder in the first degree and murder in the second degree as a crime of terrorism.
KARA FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I'm very concerned about my client's right to a fair trial. Like every other defendant, he is entitled to a presumption of innocence. But unfortunately, the way this has been handled so far, his rights are being violated.
SCANNELL: His attorney, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, telling Judge Gregory Carro that Mangione was being used like, quote, political fodder.
AGNIFILO: He's a young man and he is being treated like a human ping pong ball between two warring jurisdictions here.
SCANNELL: Saying last week's now infamous perp walk with Mangione stepping off a helicopter surrounded by heavily armed law enforcement officers and New York City Mayor Eric Adams trailing behind was inappropriate.
AGNIFILO: Frankly, Your Honor, the mayor should know more than anyone about the presumption of innocence.
SCANNELL: Noting Adams own legal problems over federal charges, including bribery, to which he has pled not guilty.
AGNIFILO: I submit that he was just trying to detract from those issues by making a spectacle of Mr. Mangione.
SCANNELL: Agnifilo also asking for expedited discovery, but prosecutors warning that may not be so easy.
JOEL SEIDEMANN, PROSECUTOR: I have never seen a case with such volume of evidence.
SCANNELL: Saying there are thousands of hours of video tracking Mangione.
Mangione is also facing four federal charges, including murder through use of a firearm.
SEIDEMANN: As we understand that we have primary jurisdiction and we have been informed by the U.S. attorney that they intend on allowing us to try our case first. We will comply with our ethical obligations with respect to trying this defendant's guilt in this courtroom, in this courtroom alone.
SCANNELL: Mangione has not entered a plea yet on the federal charges. Prosecutors could decide to seek the death penalty in that case.
Members of the public filling four rows of the courtroom to watch the hearing unfold.
REPORTER: Luigi, do you want to say something?
[19:20:01]
SCANNELL: While outside, protesters rallied in support of Mangione and against insurance companies like UnitedHealthcare.
(PROTESTERS CHANTING)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BOLDUAN: And Kara is here with me.
And, Kara, you were in the courtroom today. You can see Mangione up close as he entered this plea.
Tell us what stood out to you.
SCANNELL: I mean, if you look at the contrast, you know, he's covered by security. There were security officers from the court surrounding him. At one point, when the lawyers went up to the bench to talk to the judge. Just a real strong presence walking him into the courtroom, arm in arm. And then, by contrast, he's very calm. You see his lawyer there putting her hand on his shoulder, emphasizing he's a young man trying to draw that contrast, that he's not the shooter, the killer that he's been charged with being.
And also interesting in court, there were four rows for the public and they were filled. They were waiting on line, just like the reporters, to get into the courtroom. The majority of them were women and young women, which is just interesting. You don't really know what to draw from that, although clearly there's -- this sensation about him. You see the people outside court protesting in favor of him in a sense, which you don't usually see when someone is facing such serious charges.
Also, even the fact that we saw these images and the video of him, that is something that hasn't happened in the New York state court system in at least a decade, going back to when Dominique Strauss- Kahn, the former head of the IMF, was charged with sexual assault. This charge was ultimately dropped.
But that was the last time that people I've talked to can remember there being cameras and broadcasts from the courtroom in New York. So, a real rare glimpse into this, which is fascinating given the public fascination around him. And obviously the high profile nature of this alleged assault.
BOLDUAN: Yeah. And will it continue? I think it will. We will see. But know when it popped up this morning and we saw it, I was really surprised to see inside the courtroom for sure.
And so, great that you were able to be there. Thank you so much. Great reporting as always.
OUTFRONT with us now, criminal defense attorney Mark O'Mara, and Casey Jordan, criminologist, attorney and behavioral analyst.
Guys, it's good to see you.
Mark, Mangione enters a not guilty plea. Not unexpected. What kind of work does his defense team now had ahead of have ahead of them? And what do you see as their options?
MARK O'MARA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, a lot of options are coming up. First, of course, we had that first track, which is the forensic or evidence focused track, which is can they prove he did it? It seems that what we have seen so far, the strong case is there for the state, because we have the forensic evidence. We have some DNA evidence, we have fingerprint evidence, video evidence.
And it looks as though they've put together a very strong case. But of course, the defense team still has to attack that chip away at it. Whether or not it was done properly. But at the same time, the track that they really have to focus on is the mental health mitigation. If in fact he did it, which seems as though its a strong case, then the question is why? Because of potentially some mental health concerns. But an interesting third track that may be here that they're going to
weave into it is can they carefully start blaming big industry, not for the shooting itself, but for maybe their clients obsession with what happened, and maybe start looking and feeling into people's, you know, disdain for big industry, big insurance in this case. And that may buy them a little bit of that mental health mitigation dynamic to it. It's going to be very interesting to see how the defense team weaves all that together.
BOLDUAN: Yeah. No kidding. I mean, yes, absolutely. And hearing you describe it that way for sure, Mark.
Casey, we've got all this video as Kara Scannell was talking about of Mangione. We've got him in the hallway on his way into the courtroom, and when he's walking in, were playing it now for viewers. He's in shackles. There's very little emotion shown on his face. I was watching it very closely. It was happening during my show this morning.
And then he's in the courtroom cameras again, talking to his attorney. You see him smiling at least one point. Then on his way out of court, if you're continuing to look at his demeanor, reporters ask him if he had anything to say. He shakes his head no.
What do you make of all of that?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST, ATTORNEY & BEHAVIORAL ANALYST: Gosh, I see confidence to the point of being smug or even indignant. But at the very least, he is unperturbed.
Now that confidence can stem from a lot of things. It could, you know, as Mark just pointed out, I anticipate a mental health defense down the line. But is it that he is delusional and doesn't really understand, you know, how much serious trouble he is in? Or is he just confident because he is a child of wealth and privilege, and he's pretty sure that, you know, the attorneys that have been hired are going to do their best to get him out of this some way or the other?
But even more interesting to me is the twinning is winning approach. I have to say that it was just kind of fascinating from a visual standpoint, to see the matching outfits like his defense attorney in here, going to a mother-son dance or something.
BOLDUAN: It was -- it was something. It was one of those things you add into, you don't know what to make of it, from the outside looking in.
[19:25:02]
Mark, there has been this. I describe it as just scary lionizing of Mangione since he was caught. I mean, you saw it outside the court today. We've seen it in the days, weeks since he was caught.
There is even an audience outburst during "Saturday Night Live" this weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN JOST, COMEDIAN: Luigi Mangione dropped.
(CHEERING)
JOST: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Woo!
You're wooing for justice, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Colin Jost was just trying to set up a joke. And that's just the mention of his name, the -- there's an audience outburst of applause and cheers for Mangione.
Mark, what do you see is going on here?
O'MARA: We now are a celebrity focused society. And unfortunately, this case is going to be one where all of his fans are going to be very, very vocal. And, of course, if it gets to a trial, this should not this should be figured out ahead of time. But we know sometimes they do, particularly high profile cases. Those same people are going to be in the jury pool, that they have to select from.
So it's going to be a very interesting dynamic. You know, going back real quickly. A year ago, we had that same thing a decade ago, the same thing with the Zimmerman case, where there was a split of a lot of people in favor of him, a lot of people opposed to him. And now were seeing it, that real celebrity, and its going to play out in some strange ways over the next several months.
BOLDUAN: Strange is definitely one word for it. Casey, what's your final thought on this?
JORDAN: I think his attorney is already strategizing. She is taking her Leslie Abramson playbook from the Menendez brothers, making him look innocent, and she is going to be there for voir dire, hoping and praying to get a stealth juror that will find him innocent on principle, and not because it's the legal finding. I mean, that's how I think this is going to go.
BOLDUAN: A long road ahead. Thank you both. It's very good to see you.
OUTFRONT for us next, Donald Trump making it clear there is only one president-elect at a time, or really just one, and it's not Elon Musk. Are cracks now forming in their newfound friendship?
And we have breaking news. Former President Bill Clinton hospitalized, and we're just getting new information about his health this evening.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:31:26]
BOLDUAN: New tonight, a Trump ally in Congress saying when Donald Trump says he wants to take back the Panama Canal, he takes him seriously.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CARLOS GIMENEZ (R-FL): I always take him seriously. Even though they may sound a little bit, you know, out there. I always take the president seriously, and its and it's a legitimate threat to Panama. He wants a better deal. And I think we need to get a better deal from -- from Panama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: This after Donald Trump has repeatedly brought up control of the Panama Canal of late, including during a speech yesterday at a conservative conference to activists.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It was given to Panama and to the people of Panama. But it has provisions. You got to treat us fairly and they haven't treated us fairly. If the principles, both moral and legal, of this magnanimous gesture of giving are not followed, then we will demand that the Panama Canal be returned to the United States of America in full, quickly and without question. I'm not going to stand for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Steve Contorno is OUTFRONT with us now.
Steve, why all of a sudden interest for Donald Trump in the Panama Canal?
STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Kate, that is a question that I've been trying to get to the bottom of for the past 48 hours. I asked the Trump transition team and they declined to elaborate, but I did talk to several people in Trumps inner circle. And look, they said that this came out of left field for them as well, and they were caught off guard. It's not something that he campaigned on over the past year and a half.
It's also not something that they have understood, have saw him talk about recently behind the scenes as well, and they don't really know where the origins of this come from. The one person did tell me, look, Trump dines regularly with friends and new acquaintances, and he's been entertaining business leaders and world leaders, and he gets ideas in his head. And then he quickly decides whether or not to act on that.
So that could certainly be the case here. And another person told me he has been infatuated with taking steps to improve U.S. standing with trade, and this would certainly fall into that category.
Now, there are a lot of specifics that are lacking here. How would Donald Trump go about seizing the Panama Canal through pressure through the military?
This is a piece of land and a port that has been operated and controlled by the country of Panama since 1999, based on a treaty that the U.S. signed almost half a century ago. And unraveling that at this stage would be difficult.
BOLDUAN: To say the least. Or maybe not, to stand by, to stand by. I think that's maybe where we -- where we let it land yet again.
It's good to see you, Steve. Let us know if you get any more answers to the question, to the query on the Panama Canal. Thank you so much.
OUTFRONT with us now to talk more about this, former Democratic Congressman Max Rose, David Urban, and Kristen Soltis Anderson.
Good to see you guys. David, smile. It's me. Jeez, Louise, look at that. Just give me a smile. Max.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm smiling. I'm smiling for Max Rose. Congressman Max Rose makes me smile.
BOLDUAN: Always, always.
Do you agree? I know -- I saw you smiling off camera as this as Steve was describing it, but do you see what Congressman Gimenez is saying? Like, take him seriously?
MAX ROSE (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: No. Sure. Look, you should take what Donald Trump says seriously. And to my friend David, obviously, congrats on your on your victory.
And what I particularly enjoyed about Donald Trumps campaign was all of the Panama Canal commercials. And you saw how much that spiked in the exit polls. It was such a pivotal issue in the campaign, so obviously he'd be acting on it now.
[19:35:03]
Of course not. The guy never mentioned it once. So we all know how this business works, okay?
Someone wrote him a check or someone had a pivotal meeting with him and made a promise for a future check if he acted on this issue. So it's going to be Panama Canal this week or next. And then the weeks thereafter, it will be another pet project of the billionaire class. This speaks to what the actual truth of this second iteration of the Trump presidency will be, not the populist, hard core issues that he actually ran on. And that's what's so sad about all of this.
BOLDUAN: Well, here's David respond, respond. But can I came up with a funny one for you on I came up with a funny one for you, though.
URBAN: Come on. He's so -- he's so jaded. Listen to the jaded, bitter guy from Staten Island there. I used to like him until a couple of minutes ago.
Listen, Kate, it's important. Here's why it's important. There -- there is a major player in the Panama Canal that's not Panama. It's China, right? So the Chinese control the two biggest ports at either end of the canal. In 2017, the Panamanians rejected the notion that they rejected Taiwan as a country. They sided with China. They recognized China. They signed the belt and road initiative with the Chinese in 2018, expanding their sphere of influence in an area which 70 percent of all traffic is U.S. traffic going through from one port to another through the Panama Canal.
The treaty, which was signed, leaves an out for the United States that says if the neutrality of the canal is threatened, that we could take it back. You know how we do it? With the U.S. military.
I don't know if anybody remembers Operation Just Cause, but we sent the U.S. military down there to kick some and oust the president and put a new president in. We did it within about like 24 hours.
So we could do it. If I was the Panamanians, I wouldn't cozy up to the Chinese too much. If I was the Chinese, I wouldn't get too cute.
BOLDUAN: So, wait, is this do I do I sum this up to it's like option all of the -- it's like choose your own adventure on the land grab of the day. And this is the negotiating position? Do you take him seriously or do you think --
URBAN: This is a U.S. national security, U.S. national security is at interest here. There's a neutrality provision that was put in that treaty for a reason. If that neutrality is threatened by the Chinese, their belt and road initiative continues to expand and threatens the U.S. in terms of whether its allowing passage of U.S. military ships or hindering trade. That was that was obviously put in there for a reason. We can exercise that clause.
If I were the Panamanians, I would not get too cozy with the Chinese.
BOLDUAN: Kristen, I -- when I was thinking about this today, this feels a little bit like Trumps play and saying he wanted to make Canada -- the 51st state, or, you know, he's been trolling Canada about repeatedly that I image that was generated where he posted it with the caption, oh, Canada. The Trump calling Prime Minister Justin Trudeau "governor".
How does this fit into what people care about and why they voted for Donald Trump? Or does this not?
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So I view a lot of this as related to his promise to try to either place tariffs around the world, or at least renegotiate the deals we have with lots of countries.
The idea of Donald Trump coming in, blowing up a deal, saying, I'm going to renegotiate it and get a better deal is pretty much at the core of what Donald Trump's brand has been since I have been alive on this planet. So in that sense, it's not totally surprising.
Where I do think he might run into trouble is that the Republican coalition now contains a lot of folks who have been Republican for a long time. They love fighting communists. They love going and fighting around the world. And a lot of new people who say, I don't really want to send American troops down to Panama, for instance, David.
And so I do wonder, you know, how far can he push these negotiating tactics, knowing that when it comes to projecting American strength, there are pieces of the Republican coalition these days that say, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not interested in doing that. I would like us to focus here at home first, and don't necessarily see a connection between going off and doing stuff elsewhere and what happens here at home.
BOLDUAN: Yeah, great point, Kristen.
David, now question for you. Over the weekend, Donald Trump weighed in on Elon Musk's growing influence in the Trump world. The refrain from Democrats that they have definitely been pushing, especially in the last couple of weeks, especially since the shutdown fight, was this co-presidency or President Musk? We've heard it over and over again. Clearly, they are trying to get under his skin.
I want to play for everyone what Donald Trump said about it yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: There on a new kick. Russia, Russia, Russia, Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine, all the different hoaxes. And the new one is President Trump has ceded the presidency to Elon Musk. No, no, that's not happening.
No, he's not going to be president, that I can tell you. And I'm safe. You know why? He can't be? He wasn't born in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: I actually really think the end of that was really funny. David, do you think how much do you think this gets under his skin?
URBAN: Listen, I don't think it gets under his skin at all. I think he enjoys the banter. If it got under Donald Trump's skin, he wouldn't talk about it. Okay?
BOLDUAN: I disagree. This is how he projects.
URBAN: No, listen, Kate, there is no doubt that Donald Trump is the president. Elon Musk, he can huff and puff all he wants. He's -- he's -- listen, people have known you can go look it up in the on the Google machine. You can see Elon Musk wanted certain people for cabinet positions. They've lost out, right?
So he's not getting his way on everything. Elon Musk is an influential in the sphere of Donald Trump. But there are lots of other people as well.
BOLDUAN: Kristen, what do you see? Do voters have issues with Musk having growing influence?
SOLTIS ANDERSON: Elon Musk's job approval rating overall, or I should say favorability is pretty good. It's not too bad. It's about where Donald Trumps is. People know him first and foremost as being someone who's good when it comes to electric cars and putting rockets into space.
I think if he can deliver for the American people through this DOGE, Department of Government Efficiency, if it actually can produce something, I don't think people will mind it that much.
And Donald Trump has also had people in his orbit in the past, like Jared Kushner, with whom he has shared important responsibilities making calls to foreign leaders, et cetera.. So there's a way Elon Musk could handle this that might not put him on Trump's bad side at the end of the day.
BOLDUAN: Left turn, but I really want to ask you about it. Joe Manchin, former Democrat now independent, heading out, talks to Manu Raju. And he says if the Democratic brand it is toxic. What do you think?
ROSE: He's wrong. So if you were right, we wouldn't have seen Democratic senatorial candidates win in Wisconsin, Michigan, Nevada and Arizona, despite Donald Trump winning those states. What the Democratic Party has to stop doing, though, is elevating really bad candidates with even worse staffs and campaign consultants who produce this weird gobbledygook that no one understands.
And also, they're constantly tilting towards far left advocacy groups that don't allow them to tackle really important issues that are hurting them in negative polls. When we do that, we win. We just show that, and that's why we're going to win in elections to come.
BOLDUAN: Stand by to stand by, friends.
URBAN: By the way, by the way, Max. Max -- listen, Max Rose is a normal Democrat. He's a normal guy. He's a good guy from Staten Island.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that anchor thing where I go like this with my papers to make you guys shut up.
(CROSSTALK)
ROSE: I cannot wait to see this guy have to ChatGPT Greenland next week when Donald Trump says he wants to acquire that.
(CROSSTALK)
ROSE: This guy couldn't even find Panama Canal on a map.
BOLDUAN: David Urban can. David Urban has.
ROSE: It's unbelievable.
BOLDUAN: Okay, okay, gentlemen, zip it. Kristen, I agree with you. Thank you both very, very much.
Coming up for us, former President Bill Clinton, now in the hospital, we have new details on how he is doing this evening.
Plus, I'm going to talk to the father of an American still being held hostage by Hamas. Why? They say the situation surrounding their son's captivity suddenly feels different.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:47:27]
BOLDUAN: Breaking news, former President Bill Clinton hospitalized tonight in Washington, a spokesman telling CNN he is undergoing testing and observation after developing a fever.
Kayla Tausche is OUTFRONT.
Kayla, what are you learning?
KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, we're learning that the president was taken from his home in the Washington area to MedStar Georgetown University Hospital earlier this evening out of what an aide describes as an abundance of caution after he developed a fever. The aide describes Clinton as awake and alert and receiving good medical care, but says that he will remain there at least overnight, though it is the family's hope that he can return home by Christmas.
Now, President Clinton is 78 years old. He's had several health issues since leaving office, including just a few years ago, a urological infection that led to a blood infection known as sepsis, which -- sepsis, which can be fatal. Of course, we don't know the exact nature of what caused the fever that he spiked that led to his hospital visit. But we will, of course, bring you back any additional news as we are getting it, Kate.
BOLDUAN: Yeah, we are wishing him well, of course.
Kayla, another major story from there tonight. President Biden commuting the death sentences of almost all inmates on federal death row. Take us inside the White House calculation here.
TAUSCHE: There are two real reasons behind Biden's decision to commute the sentence of these 37 individuals, all the inmates on federal death row, except for three. Those three responsible for mass murder and terrorism, according to President Biden. They are Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, who is behind the Boston marathon bombing. Dylann Roof, of course, the shooter at the historically Black Church in Charleston in 2015, as well as Robert Bowers, who is the Tree of Life Synagogue shooter.
But for the 37 individuals who will now be serving life sentences instead of sitting on death row, the consideration was really twofold. First, President Niden had suspended federal executions when he came into office. There was a worry that with President-elect Trump coming back into office, that that could be reversed. And some advocacy groups had warned about executions en masse when that happened.
And second, this is really Biden delivering on a campaign pledge. While he was a staunch supporter of the death penalty earlier in his political career, when he ran for president in 2020, he said that he was going to abolish it, in his words, because we cannot ensure we get death penalty cases right every single time -- Kate.
BOLDUAN: Kayla, thanks for the reporting as always.
Coming up next for us, the father of an Israeli hostage joins us here and hear why he's more optimistic now than ever before.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:54:16]
BOLDUAN: And tonight, families of several Israeli hostages have received signs of life from their loved ones held captive by Hamas for 443 days now. This is according to the Hostages and Missing Families Forum.
It also comes as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says there's, quote, certain progress being made in the ongoing hostage negotiations, while adding he still doesn't know how long it will take to get the hostages home once and for all.
OUTFRONT with me now, Jonathan Dekel-Chen, father of Israeli-American hostage Sagui Dekel-Chen.
Sagui is a husband and father to three young daughters. We cannot forget about this family, including a baby girl born after Sagui was taken by Hamas.
Jonathan, thank you for being here once again.
[19:55:03]
I know that you were not one of the families who received this sign of life that we have heard of about Sagui, but does this situation -- does this time, if you will, does it feel different this time?
JONATHAN DEKEL-CHEN, FATHER OF ISRAEL-AMERICAN HELD HOSTAGE BY HAMAS: Well, it's a good question, Kate. Yeah, unfortunately, no, we were not one of the families who were fortunate enough to get some sign of life.
For us this time -- I mean, the proof is in the pudding, of course, and getting everybody home. But clearly, over the course of the last three weeks since President-elect Trump came out with a very strong statement with a deadline of January 20th, his inauguration, clearly, all of the sides and the intermediaries, Egypt, Qatar, Hamas and Israel have put into motion a negotiation process that had been stalled for months until that statement.
And there seems to be an urgency on all sides that's been missing for a very long time to get this done. It remains to be seen whether or not the intermediaries, the people of Gaza and other forces can get Hamas leadership to. Yes, that is -- that is the key, and the only way that this can move forward.
BOLDUAN: That is the key, of course. But interesting that there does seem to be something of a shift, even if it's just for now. I mean, because as you talked about the president-elect, he did -- his warning was definitely a change from what we have heard before, which is saying that all hell would break loose. All hell, there would be all hell to pay if Hamas doesn't release the hostages before his inauguration.
You've spoken with some members of Donald Trump's team amid this transition. What have those conversations been like?
DEKEL-CHEN: Well, they've been open and honest and embracing really, in a way, a continuation of the many dozens of conversations that we've had, the U.S. citizens with Biden -- Biden administration officials and, you know, were only very, you know, at the beginning, of course, with getting to know the Trump administration officials, you know, they still are, you know, not -- not in office.
But that being said, we made a request to both sides, the outgoing and the incoming administration several weeks ago that, you know, begging them in a in a really to put aside whatever differences they have, and at least on this issue, getting the hostages home, all the hostages, of course, the seven Americans among them to work together.
And it's really -- we are thankful, truly, not just the hostage families, but almost all Israelis that, in fact, that Trump and the Biden administration officials that are connected to the hostage negotiations have been in absolute lockstep for weeks now, and the results seem to be suggesting that that we are close to getting this done.
BOLDUAN: The president's -- the president-elect's incoming national security advisor also just issued a new threat, another threat to Hamas, kind of echoing how president the president-elect has spoken. I want to play for you what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE WALTZ (R-FL): There has never been enough consequences. And that's what we need to be talking about with these people. You take an American, you illegally detain them if you're a nation state or if you're a terrorist, you hold them hostage. There is going to be all hell to pay. There are going to be nothing but consequences for you financially, and maybe even a bullet in your damn forehead if you take an American, period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: And that is the incoming national security advisor coming in from the White House.
I mean, do you think this more aggressive approach is making a difference? DEKEL-CHEN: Well, I -- we all hope and pray those of us who are concerned for the Israeli hostages and no less those who are concerned for -- for the people of Gaza, that that it will have the desired effect that it will push Hamas and Hamas supporters to yes, in order to end this madness.
You know, it's a change in tone, the results, whether it's the Biden administration or the incoming Trump administration, everyone wants the same results, which is to get all the hostages home. And so, if this tone with its intent, clearly, I mean, we heard the same words from -- from Mike Waltz about a week and a half ago. We met with him in D.C., and those were the same words.
So there's clearly an intent here to make a point. And perhaps most importantly, there's also a deadline of January 20th. So in that sense, it has been a game changer. What President Trump has done.
The results are the results. And we await because we know the fate of our loved ones. It's a daily challenge and we need them home. And they -- you know, just speaking for ourselves. I need my son to be reunited with his three little girls and his beautiful wife.
BOLDUAN: Jonathan Dekel-Chen, thank you so much.
DEKEL-CHEN: Thank you for having me.
BOLDUAN: And thank you all so much for joining us.
"AC360" starts right now.
