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Erin Burnett Outfront

Musk Suffers Major Hit As Tesla Profits Plummet 71 Percent; Source: Hegseth Downplaying Signal Chat A "Shocking Obfuscation; Pope Francis About To Lie In State In Open Coffin Ahead Of Funeral; Trump's Baby Bonus. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:28]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:

The breaking news, Tesla profits plunging tonight. Elon Musk just reporting a 71 percent plunge in profits, 71 percent, as he rails against Trump's tariffs, in a call going on right now. You will hear him in his own words in a call that OUTFRONT has just obtained.

Also breaking, new details on Pete Hegseth. What he's thinking, his strategy, what he's doing. Chaos is erupting inside the Pentagon that he is leading. One person telling CNN he's in full paranoia back against the wall mode.

And Trump's baby bonus. The administration reportedly coming up with ways to push women to have more babies, including a perk like $5,000 a kid or even a medal if you have six or more, which is reminiscent of some odd times in history.

Let's go OUTFRONT.

Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.

And OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news. Elon Musk's empire suffering a major blow tonight with profits plunging more than 70 percent. And Musk just moments ago in a call that we've obtained, admits this reason as to why.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, TESLA CEO: There's been some blowback for the time that I've been spending in government with the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE.

There are some -- there are some challenges, and I expect that this year will be, it will probably see some unexpected bumps this year.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BURNETT: This is -- this earnings call that's going on right now from Tesla. There will be more bumps, he says, because even though Musk tonight said he is keeping his word and stopping his full-time work for Trump and DOGE next month, which he is required to do, with his role as a special government employee, right? So that's what he's already said he was going to do.

The truth is, the headline may not be that he's stepping aside as he was saying he was due. It's actually that he is not going anywhere.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MUSK: I'll continue to spend, you know, a day or two per week on government matters for as long as the president would like me to do so.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BURNETT: A day or two a week, I mean, two days a week out of five. I mean, you got it, right. Thats 40 percent.

That's a lot of time. I mean, that would mean for roughly the next three and a half years, if Trump wants him around, Elon Musk is going to be in the oval office with Trump a couple of days a week now.

Now, that's obviously significant. And Elon is speaking on this Tesla call, spoke for a majority of the call, in fact, which began about 90 minutes ago. And just to be very clear, Elon Musk being on the call and talking for as long as he has, right?

So, we're now talking 90 minutes or so this has been going on is not a business as usual thing. He does not usually get on this call and talk.

In fact, in 2021 he said this.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MUSK: I think going forward, I will most likely not be on earnings calls unless there's something really important that -- that I need to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BURNETT: Well, there is something really important that he needs to say right now. Musk's image as the world's wealthiest man has taken an unprecedented hit in an unprecedentedly short period of time from his controversial behavior at Trump. Events like inauguration day to revelations that he has a lot more children than is known, 13 that did not come from some sort of a tabloid. It came from "The Wall Street Journal".

And beyond his reputation and image, Musk has lost more than $130 billion since election day because of the damage he has done to Tesla's brand by tying himself so directly to Trump and by DOGE, and many investors on that Tesla earnings call have lost a lot of money because of Musk this year. Tesla shares have been cut almost in half, in fact, since election day, when you look at the highs then, which may be why Musk did something really important on this call, when he talks about something important to say, perhaps nothing more important than this -- keeping up his fight against Trump's tariffs.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MUSK: The tariffs are still, you know, tough on a company where margins are still low. I just want to emphasize that this -- the tariff decision is entirely up to the president of the United States. I will weigh in with my advice with the president, which he -- he will listen to my advice. But then it's up to him, of course, to make his decision.

I've been on the record many times saying that I believe lower tariffs are generally a good idea for prosperity. But this decision is fundamentally up to the elected representative of the people being the president of the United States. So, you know, I'll continue to advocate for lower tariffs rather than higher tariffs, but that's all I can do.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BURNETT: I mean, let's clear. It's measured. It's a lot more calm than calling Peter Navarro dumber than a bag of bricks, which is what he called him on his social media platform recently on the tariff issue.

[19:05:07]

But the reality of it is, is Musk is in the center of Trump's tariff war. China and the U.S. are the two biggest markets for Tesla. And the clock is ticking.

There's a new report by a global ship tracking system that found the number of cargo ships leaving from China to southern California. The biggest market for them in the U.S. is down 44 percent from a year ago, almost cut in half. Okay, with ships leaving now for California. And that is why it is not just Tesla on the cusp of a total crisis. The whole U.S. economy is in the same state.

And one of the nation's top tech analyst, Dan Ives, tells us, were just three weeks away from the point of no return when it comes to Trump blowing up the nation's supply chain with China, three weeks. And that may be why Trump's treasury secretary came out there today to try to calm fears, telling investors that he's aware that Trump's 145 percent tariffs on China are unsustainable.

Well, thank God for that. The news sent the markets surging into the green. The Dow up more than 1,000 points, in part because of those comments from Bessent. And guess who noticed.

Listen to Trump today, compared to two weeks ago when the markets were down by a lot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're doing really well. I see the stock market was up nicely.

REPORTER: Can you give us the reaction to todays stock market drop, and also give us a sense of the next steps with China?

TRUMP: Well, I haven't seen it because I've been here for 2-1/2 hours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Okay. You can laugh at that or not. But when it's up, of course, he notices it. He does when it's down as well. He just doesn't say it.

It's important in the context to point out that the Dow is still down more than 5,000 points since Trump launched his trade war. So, you can see the chart there. And back to that 44 percent drop in cargo shipments from China, that is so crucial. And a possible three-week window until they're maybe crossing a point of no return.

The last trade deal that the United States did with China, which was actually under the last Trump administration, did not take three weeks. It took 20 months. And remember, those randomals, those stuffed animals from last night that we were talking about that are sitting in storage right now in China because a small business owner can't afford the tariffs to bring them to the United States, to sell them here, that they're just sitting there and they're not getting on a cargo ship.

There are millions and millions of American businesses in that situation right now. And China tonight is sending a clear message that as those cargo ships to the United States sit empty, China is going to reward the countries that take its side tonight, posting this image of a massive cargo ship. This will be the world's largest. In fact, they call it the sea monster. It is taller than a skyscraper 1,300 feet long, able to carry 24,000 containers.

So where is this ship going, you may wonder, because its sure not going to southern California. China says it's going to Europe.

Jeff Zeleny is OUTFRONT at the White House.

And, Jeff, Elon Musk coming out. And I -- you know, it's important to emphasize his tone here. It's not the dumb as a bag of bricks words that he threw around at Peter Navarro.

This is an earnings call. He's been calm and professional in saying that that the tariffs are not a good idea. Does Musk have any influence over the president on this at this time?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I mean, Erin, that has been a central question of this entire almost first 100 days of this new administration. How much influence does Elon Musk have? And of course, on some things he has considerable influence.

But on this in particular on tariffs, he's had very little, at least at the beginning. Elon Musk, of course, made it very clear he was opposed to this sweeping tariff plan. He, you know, was aggressively attacking a Peter Navarro who was largely behind it.

However, Elon Musk may have had more of a hand in the. President deciding to put a 90 day pause on most of it. So, I think it's very much a mixed bag in terms of how much influence Elon Musk has had, particularly on this.

But by saying he will step aside, this is just one more indication that we've really been able to see almost week by week by week, his influence is waning. His presence here at the White House is waning. At the very beginning, in the first of several weeks, Elon Musk was in the Oval Office so many times, as we saw, he was in the cabinet room.

He was omnipresent. He was everywhere. We've not seen him nearly as much. That does not mean he's not working behind the scenes, but it's clear his Department of Government Efficiency has been one of the challenging points of this administration.

So, we shall see how long he stays involved. But on the economy front, Erin, a very interesting shift in tone as well. We noticed from the president tonight.

He says now he has no intention of firing the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell. Of course, last week he said that he would like to fire him. He said, if I want him out of here, he'll be out of here.

But tonight, in the Oval Office, he said he did not want to remove him. Of course, this is yet one more attempt by this White House to try and ease the market. So, we saw the treasury secretary earlier today trying to offer some reassurances, as he has. The president was also doing this.

So, a lot of fronts on the economy here, but we'll see what the markets do tomorrow. But an interesting change of tone from the president on Jerome Powell, Erin.

BURNETT: Yeah, very significant.

[19:10:00]

All right. Thank you very much, Jeff.

And I want to go now to Dan Ives, Peter Tuchman, and Alexis Glick, all back with me.

So, Dan, you know, you were able to hear that call. You know Elon doesn't usually get on that call. Thats the whole point. And he's on and he's -- he's being very, very calm, in what he's saying. But obviously, profits plunging 71 percent.

And there's a reason for that, right. And that reason is him and Trump and DOGE.

DAN IVES, GLOBAL HEAD OF TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH, WEDBUSH SECURITIES: I mean, this is a moment of truth for Musk because on this call and I think you did a great setup. I mean, this was really -- investors are massively frustrated. In our opinion, it was a fork in the road.

He basically had to say, recommit to Tesla and sort of take a huge step back from doge. And that was something that he did. And I ultimately believe this is really the beginning of the end of how he's going to be with the Trump administration, because the brand damage, it's we think it's 20 percent.

BURNETT: Twenty percent.

IVES: Permanent brand damage potentially from this. And the reality is, when you look at Tesla, and Tuchman and I have talked about it, it's not just the brand damage, the tariffs as well. It's been a -- it's sort of been a 1-2 punch. And that's why Musk had to be a much different Elon Musk on that conference call than --

BURNETT: Than he's been the bag of bricks and all of that.

IVES: Than typical a Musk.

BURNETT: And yet and so, it's interesting you say that. And yet, Alexis he is also saying, but I'm not done my work. And as long as he wants me there 1 to 2 days a week, which is a lot of time, and I'll be there.

ALEXIS GLICK, FORMER MORGAN STANLEY EXECUTIVE: And he was very clear in indicating that. But the interesting thing, the point on the one two punch here, right, is that he was very honest about protests, about implications on the brand. And to your point, he was also very contrite. I mean, he really was being very honest and forthright with investors and honest and forthright about his intent to stay 1 to 2 days a week in this DOGE role, as long as the president needs him.

BURNETT: Yeah.

GLICK: The thing here, right now, as you guys know, is what's so incredibly important is for leaders of business and industry to be sharing back with the president in either earnings calls or in one on one meetings like you saw yesterday with the major retailers CEOs, for him to fully understand what are the implications day to day on the tariffs, on not knowing where your supply chain is, pricing, skews, margins, account receivables, payables, hiring, firing, hearing that day in and day out in a swan song from all different industries is starting to take effect.

BURNETT: Yeah. I mean, Peter, look, I whip the white bat out for you. Here's Elon, okay? Here's Elon. Here's X on his shoulder. Okay?

Elon owns 12.8 percent of Tesla. All right, 12.8 percent. Tesla's down how much this year we were just looking at it 41 percent. So how much money has he lost. We were just calculating this. Let's look it up okay. So, $73 billion --$73 billion lost by Elon and his descendants.

PETER TUCHMAN, TRADER AT THE NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE: I think it's important to note one thing you just talked about that everybody needs to come together and start sharing. Look, this has been a problem of messaging from the beginning, right? Whether -- whether it's the president, whether I mean, the reason that the market took the hit it did was all about the way that they disseminated the information from the beginning.

If they had come into the market -- markets can handle virtually anything if they're given, if it's being fed to them in a way that they can --

BURNETT: Manage and project.

TUCHMAN: Manage it. Except this was almost a perfect storm.

I don't think anything changed from yesterday, except maybe there's some happy dust that was dropped over the White House because suddenly everybody changed their tune. Besant came out and said that, you know what? That the negative, this aggressive negative narrative around tariffs is unsustainable. And if we don't, almost accepting responsibility, right, that we've done, we've messaged wrong and were going to have to change that to change everything.

And then Elon Musk, he doesn't care that he lost $73 billion that because that's gone. That's been happening for a while.

BURNETT: Right.

TUCHMAN: It's almost as if everybody you know whether it's -- you know, it's almost like a bipolar person who took their medication. Everybody came out with a completely different message today. The president did it, Elon Musk did it, and Bessent did it, and it and the market read all of that. And it responded favorably. It was -- it's a huge, huge difference from the --

BURNETT: But the whipsaw -- the whipsaw is insane.

IVES: But I would add to Tuchman, I think did a great job explaining the walls are caving in because at the end of the day, the ten-year, the dollar, gold, markets, how many deals are on the table? Zero.

So, you could talk --

BURNETT: Trade deals you're talking about.

IVES: Trade deals.

So, you could talk. And that's why you're seeing as you talk about trying to get data out because at the end of the day, the market is basically saying --

TUCHMAN: They're suddenly listening -- listening to all the -- to your point, they're suddenly listening to everything that's been said.

[19:15:00]

And they are pivoting. This is a major pivot. It's a 1,000-point market pivot, and it's a 1,000-point messaging pivot from all three of these people.

GLICK: And I think the important thing here, right, is, is like what we're -- what I think anyone who's running a business today is searching for is pragmatism is a line of sight, right?

And the -- and as you're seeing leaders of consequence step up and say, we -- we need the fed to be independent, right? Even the IMF coming out today and saying central banks need to be independent. They need to fight inflation, right?

So you're seeing all this rhetoric around this the issue, right, as we know it is that in the United States, right, two thirds of our economy is dependent on the small to medium business owner.

BURNETT: Yeah.

GLICK: They're the ones who don't have someone standing at the Hill or the White House speaking up on their behalf. They're the ones who do not have the line of credit, who cannot forward, forecast and pay the kinds of payables that they are being expected to pay coming off of these ships with these tariffs.

So, I think we are seeing corporate America step up and tell the story. The issue now is the small to middle sized business owner. What will the repercussions of this 90-day period be on employment?

That is now, I think, moving from analysis paralysis to real fear. And I think they're getting a sense that that fear is growing at a rate at which it could really spin.

BURNETT: Well, fear can become uncontrollable. And to your point, about a three-week window. And we were just looking at those ships, you know, the 44 percent drop in ships that are being loaded, coming to California, that's already happened, a 44 percent drop.

IVES: Time's ticking. And the reality is they know time is ticking and they have a window here. You got no deals. You got to talk quick. You're starting to see the market pivot. But the reality is it will hit the consumer and the market. And that's --

TUCHMAN: What about the bond -- the bond market the other day, right? When we talked about it that Jamie Dimon sort of shot a bullet across the bow that day. If they had -- if he had not stepped in with that pause, right, then the bond market would have gone from 4.5 up to five, and the next day, we would have been in crash mode in the stock market.

So, somebody -- so the somebody is getting through to all three of those people, to Bessent, to Trump, right? I mean, think about how -- what a pivot it is for Trump to suddenly go from an aggressive attack on Jay Powell yesterday to today. I have no interest in firing him like that, you know, that's -- that's -- that's a 180 degree, 360 degree pivot.

Same thing about the way that they're acknowledging the fact that this that the aggressive negative tariff -- tariff story is not sustainable. We're going to change that.

So, everything that they were all gung-ho about yesterday, with a thousand point down market, today, they 360 the other way and the market loved it.

GLICK: This goes back --

IVES: But they're not focused on the market. TUCHMAN: They're not focused on the market.

(CROSSTALK)

GLICK: -- communication though because the value right now of corporate earnings, the value of earnings calls is enormous.

Think about the guts it took the CEO of Delta to actually come out to the street and say we can't predict what the second half of the earnings going to look like.

So, what Elon is doing on this call is so important to the stability of the market.

IVES: Blindfolded darts that every CEO is playing with.

TUCHMAN: Each one of these moves that happen today with Trump, Bessent, and Elon were huge. This is like I'm reminded of this the other day when you were in here, we had a kumbaya moment and we were manifesting that he was going to come in on a beautiful little wagon, and it was all going to be fine.

IVES: Play chess.

TUCHMAN: Everything --

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: And see if it holds.

The problem is when someone can call someone, fire someone one day and the next day they love them. I mean, that's also --

TUCHMAN: That's one thing that's important to look at how the market traded today. Okay. The advanced declines today were completely different than yesterday. Yesterday was a lot of program-selling. Today was a lot of determined buying, right?

It was 9 to 1 advances versus declines. In my experience on Wall Street. That means we've always been looking at what is it going to take for -- Jim Cramer said, what is it going to take for people to start buying stocks again? Today, people were buying stocks. This wasn't program anything. These were people deciding, you know what? I'm seeing the narrative change and I'm going to start getting into the market. That's at least -- that's my interpretation.

BURNETT: All right. Well, thank you all very much.

IVES: Thank you.

BURNETT: And next, the breaking news, brand new insight into Pete Hegseth, one person telling CNN he is now in full paranoia mode, their words.

And a CNN exclusive tonight. We're going to travel to the late pope's hometown of Buenos Aires. Memorials blanketing his city. As we are learning new details tonight about who the next pope may be.

And breaking news, a judge slamming the Trump administration's handling of a Maryland man wrongly deported to El Salvador. And tonight, Trump's team has a new 24-hour deadline.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:24:20]

BURNETT: Breaking news, Pete Hegseth accused of a, quote, shocking attempt to mislead. This came after an interview that the defense secretary gave to Fox News, and he downplayed the Signal chat in that interview. That was a chat with his wife and his brother and more than a dozen other people, including friends. His lawyer, about detailed war strike plans.

The accusation is coming from a source with direct knowledge of the signal chat, telling our Jake Tapper that Hegseth comments were a, quote, eyebrow raising attempt to mislead and a shocking obfuscation.

Alex Marquardt is OUTFRONT with more details on the chaos inside the U.S. Pentagon tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Defiant, defensive and accusing the deep state, Pete Hegseth coming out swinging today, trying to justify the revelations of a second Signal chat with highly sensitive attack plans and the turmoil which a top aide who just left the Pentagon called total chaos and a full-blown meltdown.

[19:25:15]

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Once a leaker, always a leaker.

MARQUARDT: Hegseth telling former colleagues on Fox News that three senior officials who were close to him at the Pentagon were fired for leaking classified information, which they deny.

HEGSETH: So, if they want to keep leaking and pushing and peddling things to try to sabotage the president's agenda, that's unfortunate. But that's how leaking works in this town.

MARQUARDT: The circle around the defense secretary of those he trusts is shrinking, some around him so frustrated, sources say, they're threatening to resign.

One person familiar with Hegseth's thinking over the last month told CNN he's in full paranoia, back against the wall mode.

Embattled Hegseth is also trying to downplay a second chat on the Signal app, which he started and in which he shared highly sensitive information about plans for U.S. warplanes to strike the Houthis in Yemen. HEGSETH: What was shared over Signal then and now, however you

characterize it, was informal, unclassified, coordinations for media coordination and other things. Thats what I've said from the beginning.

MARQUARDT: Unlike the first chat that was revealed, which was primarily made up of top Trump officials, this second one included his wife, his brother and his lawyer, none of whom would likely need to know about an imminent military strike.

President Donald Trump has so far backed his secretary of defense, but according to sources, he has been asking for feedback from people around him about Hegseth.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They just bring up stories. I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. You know, he was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people and that's what he's doing. So, you don't always have friends when you do that.

MARQUARDT: The White House said Hegseth is doing a phenomenal job.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is what happens when the entire Pentagon is working against you and working against the monumental change that you are trying to implement.

MARQUARDT: That was then echoed in a post on X.

More bad news for Hegseth may come soon. His chief spokesman, a longtime supporter who left on his own last week, wrote there are very likely more shoes to drop in short order, with even bigger bombshell stories coming.

BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I've worked for six secretaries of defense, I've worked for four presidents. I've never seen anything like this with high level appointees from the administration. These are political appointees, people that Hegseth chose coming out and telling the American people this. So, I think there's a lot more below the surface.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNETT: Alex, when he says a lot more below the surface. I mean, obviously, this is the U.S. Pentagon, right? This is the United States Defense Department. I mean, it's just incredible to hear that this is coming out of there. What more have you been learning about the effect that this turmoil is having inside the Defense Department itself?

MARQUARDT: Well, Erin, we really have two things. We have this new signal chat and then this general sense of chaos. And of course, they converge. And it is clear that now, one of the most critical parts of the U.S. government, the Department of Defense, is unsteady, to say the least. Now, there's new reporting from our colleagues, Kaitlan Collins, Kevin Liptak and Natasha Bertrand. They have another example of this chaos under Hegseth.

Last month, they report, he bypassed lawyers from the DOD and directly went to the director of some of the Pentagon's most classified programs in order to brief Elon Musk on more than two dozen of these programs about China specifically. Now, ultimately, Pentagon ethics lawyers said that that would not be appropriate. And this idea went away.

But today, in that Fox News interview, Hegseth referred to the previous reporting about that meeting with Musk at the Pentagon last month as an example of why he is so focused on rooting out these leakers -- Erin.

BURNETT: As you say, it's -- it's unsettling that it is so unsteady at the Pentagon.

Alex, thank you very much.

And next, we're going to take you exclusively to the late pope's hometown, Buenos Aires, as we are learning new details about who the next pope may be, something of great import for all world leaders.

Plus, a bonus to boost the birth rate. The Trump administration is reportedly considering a whole bunch of options to get women to have more babies, which includes $5,000 and get this a, quote, national medal of motherhood for having more than six kids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:34:00]

BURNETT: All right. These are live pictures, Vatican City, in the early hours of Wednesday morning. In just a few hours, mourners will be able to see the pope lie in state for the first time since his death.

We are learning new details tonight about who the next pope might be. And we're going to have much more on that in a moment.

But first, we want to bring you this, an exclusive report from the pope's hometown in Buenos Aires, where our David Culver is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Even before he passed away, Pope Francis was memorialized here in his hometown, specifically in flores, the neighborhood in Buenos Aires that he was raised. You can see tributes once again. We see this all over, flowers left outside his childhood home. And they've even got the plaque. This is the house where Pope Francis lived.

This is where Pope Francis went to elementary school, and it's still a school. You got students who are leaving for the day.

[19:35:01]

Pope Francis' friendships from even secondary school onward, some 75- plus years ago, lasted for decades. And today, we actually met up with one of his friends, Oscar Crespo. He says he remembers a moment where they were in religion class and the instructor said, those who have not had your first communion, please stand.

And there were two people who stood up. It was Oscar and another individual, and it was offered up that one of the other classmates would take them to have their first communion. And that person was Jorge Bergoglio.

Pope Francis's legacy stretches across this community, and even imprinted on the ground.

In just a few blocks from his childhood home, the church he went to as a kid and a teenager. This is the Basilica De San Jose De Flores, but it's what happened inside that really stands out. It says inside this confessional on September 21st, 1953, Jorge Mario Bergoglio. Had the call from God to become a priest.

And now that confessional has become a pilgrimage site of sorts. Throughout the day, people coming in to leave flowers, candles to offer prayers. Just to remember.

But it's not just Catholics or even Christians mourning the loss. Omar Abur (ph), a Muslim, worked alongside then Cardinal Bergoglio and a Jewish counterpart to create the Interreligious Dialogue Institute. For more than 25 years, they built a deep friendship.

When was the last time you spoke with him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This year, January 23rd.

CULVER: What did you talk about?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many times, A.I.

CULVER: A.I.?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

CULVER: Artificial intelligence?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

CULVER: Omar has been reluctant to do interviews since the pope's passing.

Omar, it's not -- it's not lost on me that the world has lost a pope. But. But you lost a friend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He used to be a good friend. And all -- we will miss him. Really? Really a -- words are not enough, okay? Words are not enough. If you want, I prefer to stop.

CULVER: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please?

(END VIDEOTAPE) CULVER (on camera): He was there, Erin, asking, can we please stop? And it might seem abrupt as you're watching that, but it wasn't personal. In fact, for him, it was a way of just trying to keep it focused on Pope Francis. And I wondered about that because the context here is he didn't really want to do interviews. It was at the urging of other friends who said, no, you need to speak about Pope Francis legacy, and you knew him so well.

But the moment he wanted to put an end to it was when his own emotions were starting to surface and you could feel it there. And he knew he was about to break down, and he just wanted to stop in that moment.

And I asked him, I said, will you be able to go to the funeral? And he said, myself, a local rabbi and a priest are going tomorrow, but we won't be going to the funeral. Well simply go and privately pay our respects, and then we'll leave before the funeral starts.

BURNETT: All right, David, thank you very much.

And OUTFRONT now, Sister Simone Campbell, renowned social justice advocate, also the author of the book "A Nun On the Bus".

Sister Simone, it's really lovely to be with you. And, you know, you think about this pope and what he did in the Catholic Church for social justice, for the marginalized, for migrants, for prisoners, for -- even the priests when he was in Argentina, it was -- it was go on the streets. That is your value to go on the streets with people.

And now, the question is, what will happen? Will that continue for the Catholic Church? Who will be the next leader?

And I know that you have had a chance to meet three of the cardinals, who met with the three. I mean, which is incredible. Cardinal Tagle of the Philippines, Cardinal Turkson of Ghana, and Cardinal Erdo of Hungary, all of whom are seen as very potentially, possibly the next pope. We know, who knows who it might be. There are many, many that could be there.

But -- but there's -- many of them are a good deal more conservative in some ways than the pope. So, what happens here?

SISTER SIMONE CAMPBELL, CATHOLIC ADVOCATE FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE: Well, I think this is going to be a really important conclave. Thats the coming together of the cardinals to decide who the next pope is, because the majority now are from smaller, diverse places, Oceania, from Southeast Asia, from South America, from --

BURNETT: Named by Pope Francis.

CAMPBELL: Named by Pope Francis. And they don't know each other yet.

[19:40:00]

And so, the first part of coming together is going to have to be learning their cultures, understanding how they go together. And because Pope Francis was a friend, not just to his friend, that was demonstrated here, but to the world. I mean, that his warmth and his way of welcoming people. And I think our world is so hungry for that at this moment, that my own private hope is that that level of warmth and friendship gets lifted up. But only some cultures can do that.

BURNETT: And of course, we have seen in the political world, right? So many instances of more conservativism right now in this moment --

CAMPBELL: Yes.

BURNETT: -- winning out, right? So, so the question is, will this also happen in the sphere of the catholic church, which transcends political borders but is nonetheless a political entity in its own sense? And the Pope Francis did take on some political issues, whether it was migration or other issues. He felt so passionately about.

Some of those -- Cardinal Turkson who you have met of Ghana, he is much more conservative on issues like sexuality, reflective of where he is from, of Ghanaian society. But what more could you tell us about, say, Cardinal Turkson if he were to become pope?

CAMPBELL: Well, Cardinal Turkson worked for Pope Francis as his social justice promoter, worked on the issues of migration, worked on international debt and the huge debt that small countries have to big countries. And the effort at debt forgiveness. He also worked on, not just the issue of immigration, but helping immigrants assimilate into new countries and dealing with the issue of the countries where they've left.

BURNETT: So, in that sense, you say he is much more a match for Francis.

CAMPBELL: He's more of a match, but he's also a very conservative around sexual issues. And I don't know, he was very nice to us as women leaders in the United States. I don't know where he is on women's leadership in the church.

BURNETT: So, what about women's leadership? I mean, the pope did -- did -- had filled roles that had never been filled by women before with women.

CAMPBELL: Yeah.

BURNETT: Nonetheless, women are still not priests. You know, when he was in public, he would change the structure, did not change the rules, did not change something. But the structure itself did not change. Is there any hope for that?

CAMPBELL: I actually believe that there is with regards to a first step with regards to deacons, because the study that was done, they've done several studies. It's sort of like the U.S. government, if you don't want to make a decision, do a study.

So they've studied it several times and they've said, oh, you know, early -- early Christian days women were deacons. Oh, what a surprise. Yes, this is possible. I think we need more study because of the politics of trying to move the behemoth of the Roman Catholic Church, over 1.4 billion people. It takes time. But I do think it's possible on that.

BURNETT: All right. Well, I'm glad to hear that.

CAMPBELL: Hope springs eternal.

BURNETT: All right. Sister Simone, it's wonderful to see you. And thank you so much.

And we are going to have special coverage of the pope's procession to St. Peter's Basilica. He will then lie in state. Anderson Cooper will be live with that starting at 3:00 a.m.

And next, Pete Hegseth defending himself after he discussed military plans in that second group chat with people including his brother. Ty Cobb says Hegseth should be prosecuted and he'll tell you why next.

Plus, $5,000 to have a baby. Thats just one of the ideas that the Trump administration is reportedly considering to boost the birth rate. And wait until you hear about the medals they want to give out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:47:34]

BURNETT: Breaking news, the judge overseeing the case of a Maryland man wrongly deported to El Salvador, slamming down the Trump administration, saying that they are not acting in good faith. It comes after attorneys for Kilmar Abrego Garcia told the judge that Trump officials have produced, quote, nothing of substance to explain what they are doing to facilitate his return to the U.S., which is what, of course, the Supreme Court, in a 9-0 ruling, said they must do.

A few moments ago, a judge writing, quote: For weeks, defendants have sought refuge behind vague and unsubstantiated assertions of privilege, using them as a shield to obstruct discovery and evade compliance with this court orders. That ends now.

OUTFRONT now, Ty Cobb, former Trump White House lawyer.

So, Ty, they get 24 hours from this judge, 24 hours to the Trump administration to now answer all outstanding questions from Abrego Garcia attorneys. So that gives them a deadline tomorrow of 6:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. So, tomorrow night, we're going to know how this plays out.

So, what happens if they refuse and don't do it?

TY COBB, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: There are certain sanctions and findings that she would be allowed to make. If the obfuscation and bad faith continues. You know, she could -- she could basically, you know, rule quickly and in their favor and, you know, direct them to, you know, take -- take broader steps than they have. And you know, I think she's likely to do that. I think she can also hold begin to hold. The lawyers that she's

already found have acted in bad faith. Now, I mean, there are multiple findings of bad faith in this opinion.

And one of the things you saw in this opinion, which I think is really remarkable, is this is the first judge who has so far in the -- in the Trump world cases, finally abandoned the presumption of regularity that normally attaches to the representations of government lawyers. She doesn't believe them. She doesn't trust them. She made it plain that she was not accepting their representation and ordering them to take certain actions.

And what it shows is that these lawyers learned nothing from the sharp rebuke and upbraiding that they received from Judge Wilkinson and the panel and the fourth circuit, who last ruled in this case, chastising the government for their malfeasance, misfeasance in this case and their conduct.

[19:50:03]

And the Supreme Court, which alluded to the possibility that this -- this could happen and signaled some concern about, you know, the candor and integrity of the government in their Saturday morning, opinion that, you know, halted the Bluebonnet deportations.

BURNETT: So, you know, one of the strongest lines from the judges, tonight, when you go through this, the DOJ repeatedly had rejected questions from Abrego Garcia lawyers, saying they were based on the false premise that the United States can or has been ordered to facilitate Abrego Garcia release from custody in El Salvador, right? So, they kept saying that, you know, this, this whole thing about facilitate versus make it happen, right?

And obviously, they're being paid. They've admitted, I mean, they're paying the government of El Salvador to do this. And it's a circular, you know, it's a circular rhetorical ridiculousness that they can't get him back if they don't want him. And the judge responded to that.

She said defendants and their counsel well know that the falsehood lies not in any supposed premise, but in their continued mischaracterization of the Supreme Court order, right? This order of nine zero that somehow Trump has tried to spin as nine zero in his favor when it was nine zero against his case. So, does this end it?

COBB: Not. Not yet. I mean, so you know that, you know, there are two prongs to this. They were ordered to facilitate it. And as she pointed out, they've lied repeatedly about that. Thats part of the, you know, Trump-Bondi effort to try to portray the Supreme Court 9-0 decision, ordering them to facilitate the return as a -- as somehow a win.

She put -- she put, you know, she put the right word to that argument today, which is lie. And she made them own it. So, she -- she has accused them of lying and found that they did. But it doesn't end it yet. I mean, that it's probably going to -- they will force this again to the fourth circuit and ultimately again, probably to the Supreme Court before this will end. BURNETT: And, Ty, I want to ask you one more thing before you go. Pete

Hegseth, the second Signal chat. You actually think it could be prosecuted for it?

COBB: Oh, sure. He could be prosecuted for the first Signal chat. Actually, every -- every official that was on that chat could be prosecuted for it because it's illegal to share classified information on a non-secure channel. You know, I mean, it's also illegal. It's, you know, it's they thought that they were all, you know people with security clearances, even though they had a reporter on there.

So there's some intent issue there, even though that they're not supposed to use signal for that purpose. But in the -- in the second call, you know, there's no -- they had no reason to believe that his wife had a clearance or that his personal lawyer had a clearance or his barber or hairdresser or whoever else was on the phone.

BURNETT: Yeah. And I don't know why I'm sort of laughing because I know it's -- I know you don't mean it to be funny, but -- yeah.

COBB: But keep in mind that David Petraeus, you know, had had a issue very similar to this. And when he was confronted with it, he immediately resigned as CIA director, was prosecuted by a Democratic administration and was convicted. You know, that should happen to Hegseth. But we no longer have an independent Justice Department, which is the one of the stark distinctions between this this administration and the rest of American history.

BURNETT: Sobering. Ty, thank you very much.

COBB: My pleasure. Great to be with you, Erin.

BURNETT: And next -- all right. Great to be with you. And next, as I said, Trump now throwing out some ideas of trying to get American women to have more babies, including special medals. And we'll tell you what it's about.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:57:47]

BURNETT: Tonight, cash for babies. President Trump's team working on plans to get American women to have more of them, more babies, according to "The New York Times", the ideas include a, quote, "National Medal of Motherhood" for having six or more kids and a $5,000 cash baby bonus.

Harry Enten is here now to tell us something we don't know.

So, Harry, first, let's just start with the premise here, which does come from a reality of a drop in the birth rate.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Absolutely.

BURNETT: Which how dramatic is that? ENTEN: I mean, it's pretty gosh darn dramatic. I mean, compare the

peak after World War Two back in 1957, when the average woman is having over three babies, right? And then it dropped down already 1990 to just 2.1. And now we're at 1.6 as recently as 2023.

That is below the rate folks want. You want it to be at least two in order to replenish the population. And that is a dramatic drop of over two kids from just 1957 to 2023.

BURNETT: All right. And a lot of things can drive that, you know, increased prosperity, et cetera, in many countries do drive a decline in birth rates. But in this particular case, what's driving it?

ENTEN: People, you know, it's so funny. Pew Research polled folks who are not having kids and asked, why aren't you having kids? The number one reason is they just don't want to, Erin. That's the number one reason, 57 percent.

The focus is elsewhere, 44 percent. The world's a mess. Concerned about the world, 38 percent. Interesting -- look at what's at the bottom of that list. At 36 percent is can't afford.

So, in fact, when it comes to affordability, that's actually low on the list.

BURNETT: All right. So, National Medal of Motherhood is one of the things they're talking about. When that -- when I heard that and that was for six or more kids, there was a -- there's a history of medals for having children.

Nazi Germany actually did something like that. They wanted women to have more children. They gave out a motherhood medal.

ENTEN: Yes.

BURNETT: Tell us something we don't know.

ENTEN: Yeah, I'll tell you something you don't know. You know, in terms of countries that have actually given out medals for motherhood, it's not exactly the 1927 Yankees.

All right. What are we talking about? You mentioned Nazi Germany under Hitler. How about the Soviet Union under Stalin? How about Russia with, of course, Vladimir Putin?

You look at the list of countries that have given out medals to mothers for awards for essentially, you know, having kids. These are not the countries you generally want to follow.

So, when Trump says that, he wouldn't exactly be joining a very good company, we'll put it.

BURNETT: Very good company. Right. And Nazi Germany was looking into it today. Right. They would if you had this many kids, you got a bronze and a --

ENTEN: Silver or gold. Yeah. No bueno.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Harry.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BURNETT: And thanks so much to all of you.

"AC360" starts now.