Return to Transcripts main page
Erin Burnett Outfront
"Trump Chickened Out", Chinese Mocking Trump On Trade; Source: Hegseth's Wife, Ex-Fox Producer, South Security Clearance; Target Foot Traffic Drops Amid Boycott Over DEI Rollback. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired April 23, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:26]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
The breaking news, Trump chickens out. That is the Chinese talking or the more appropriate word in terms of their social media should be laughing about President Trump, as Trump changes his tune in his trade war with China and the world. Claims he's now talking with Beijing, but that may not be adding up. We're going to explain exactly why.
Plus, who it is Pete Hegseth wife, Jennifer? Why does a former Fox producer with no national security experience need security clearance? A new report on OUTFRONT this hour.
And boycotting Target. What started out as a small movement led by a black megachurch is now having a real impact on Target's actual profits.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
And, good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, Trump chickened out. At least that is what the Chinese are saying. I mean, that post with the viral hashtag Trump chicken out now as 150 million views in China and counting after Trump all but caved to Xi Jinping.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are going to have a fair deal with China. It's going to be fair.
REPORTER: Are you talking to them actively now?
TRUMP: Actively. Everything's active.
REPORTER: Mr. President, has there been any direct contact between the U.S. and China on trade at all?
TRUMP: Yeah. Of course.
REPORTER: And --
TRUMP: Every day. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Every day and active.
I mean, you know, the implication here it sounds like is there's a big deal. It's being worked on. Things are happening. We're moving forward.
Well, the problem is that he was undermined in that sentiment and rhetoric by his own treasury secretary, who told reporters this morning that, quote, both sides are waiting to speak to the other. Waiting to speak to the other -- I mean, that's the whole "waiting by the phone" thing that's been going on for weeks now.
Of course, talking takes two seconds in a situation like this, if something real starts, it literally takes two seconds. In fact, the Chinese finance minister is in Washington, D.C., as I speak. Yet, we'll show him to you. He is there not meeting with the Trump team right now.
But why did Trump put 145 percent tariffs on China only to back down? Why? Why would that happen?
I mean, because according to "The Wall Street Journal" tonight, Trump is considering major concessions, potentially slashing some tariffs on Chinese imports by more than half. And that's pretty incredible, to cut by more than half when you haven't even started negotiating means you are negotiating against yourself.
And that comes as Trump sounds like a completely different person when it comes to Beijing. I mean, just listen to him over the past 24 hours.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're doing fine with China.
I'm not going to say, oh, I'm going to play hardball with China.
We're going to be very nice.
We're going to be very good to China.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I mean, that rhetoric, good to China, nice to China is radically different than what we have heard from Trump. I mean, radically different.
And words matter here. Words have started this whole thing. Listen to what he said since the beginning of the trade war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Look, for years, we've been ripped off and taken advantage of by China. When other presidents allow China to get away with is absolutely
criminal.
China obviously treats us very badly.
China is an abuser.
China is ripping off the United States for $1 trillion a year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And that almost pales to what was online. I mean, dozens of posts, like the ones well show you here. China's brutal to American farmers. China treats us the worst. China panicked.
I mean, you know, you can -- you can read the missives at this point, though, the side that seems to be panicking is the Trump side here, which, you know, if these tariffs are being slashed like this, that is backing off. And the only reason that you're backing off is it is so odd, is that the entire fight was picked by him to begin with, right? I mean, this wouldn't be even a thing if he hadn't started it. And China has so far not had to give up anything yet.
So, Beijing seems to be sort of in shock and not able to believe its luck. I mean, some of the things that are being said on Chinese social media, he's like a child who changes his stances instantly. Today's Trump beat yesterday's Trump. What will tomorrow's Trump do?
But Trump's repeat retreat is stunning because it does go against everything he has said. Pretty much everything.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We've been ripped off for years and were not going to be ripped off anymore. No, I'm not going to bend at all. Aluminum or steel or cars.
No exceptions, no nothing. We don't necessarily want to make a deal with them.
REPORTER: Would you be open to a pause in tariffs to allow for negotiations?
TRUMP: Well, we're not looking at that.
I'm not going to make a deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: No deal, no bending, no nothing. But then they're cut in half tonight.
I mean, if that all wasn't clear enough, what you just heard there, there was this online the four words and this really sums it up, sums up why we are where we are. No exemptions, no exceptions. So, when you look at what's happening tonight, maybe cutting it in
half, that obviously is a complete and utter and total change of policy.
[19:05:06]
It raises the question of whether Trump's words and his promises mean anything on the world stage, and billionaire GOP mega-donor Ken Griffin tonight put it this way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN GRIFFIN, FOUNDER AND CEO OF CITADEL: The United States was more than just a nation. It's a brand. It's a universal brand.
Whether it's our culture, our financial strength, our military strength, America rose beyond just being a country. It was -- it was like an aspiration for most of the world. And we're eroding that brand right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So why should other countries trust Trump, especially when they're out there saying this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SENIOR COUNSELOR ON TRADE AND MANUFACTURING: We've got 90 deals and 90 days possibly pending here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Ninety deals in 90 days. There hasn't been one yet. The man behind the art of the deal, though himself right now has no deals. Theres no deals yet in that column. In fact, the only thing Trump may have to show right now are general agreements of understanding. They talk about which, of course, are agreements to talk more and eventually maybe come to an agreement.
And yet, loyalists like Stephen Miller write this, quote, you have been watching the greatest economic master strategy from an American president in history.
Jeff Zeleny is OUTFRONT, live outside the White House to begin our coverage.
So, so, Jeff, what more can you tell us about what's going on here, right? No exemptions, no exceptions, and now maybe slashing tariffs in half? And what are you learning?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, a central question has always been what is the political pain point for the president in this trade war? And it appears that we are seeing it. I mean, you can just listen over the last 72 hours or so, the stance on China has softened remarkably, really on other economic metrics as well. On Jerome Powell, of course, no longer calling for the firing of him.
So, when you put this all together, there is a through line here, the White House, the president, the Trump administration, as he approaches his 100th day in office next week, the markets have been one of the few sort of checks on his policies. And this is something, as we often talk about something, he watches him very carefully.
And China has not blinked. They have mocked the president in some respects, as you showed there. So clearly, what is happening now is the U.S. is trying to get China to the negotiating table.
That is very much an open question. There is no evidence that there have been direct conversations. The president, again, just a short time ago in the Oval Office, has said there are direct talks every day.
There is no evidence of that. If there actually are these talks going on, China is not saying so. The U.S. is. Thats sort of unusual here.
But look, the bottom line to all of this is the president has been presented with some information that he believes the economy, the markets, are struggling because of his policies. That meeting in the Oval Office that we reported earlier, those CEOs of Walmart, of Target, of Lowes, of Home Depot, really raising the alarm of a supply shortage, empty shelves by summer, prices rising -- that got the president's attention.
So, it certainly is softening his stance. The question is, will China pick up the phone, or are they going to wait for the president to blink even more, Erin?
BURNETT: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much.
You know, everyone's here with me. Dan, that's the thing. If you come from 145 and you cut it in half without even having to have a conversation, it's not necessarily a great negotiating point to be starting from but Trump chickens out 150 million views.
DAN IVES, GLOBAL HEAD OF TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH, WEDBUSH SECURITIES: I mean, the reality is, is that the situation, as you hear from small business owners, you see the ships piling up, you know, across Asia, you see these corporations as Trump's hearing from, this is an avalanche that's now going downstream.
And I think you're essentially playing poker. But to some extent with yourself, because as you continue to sort of back up here, is that even though markets up and it's a positive there, what's the next step? What's the rules of the game? And that continues to be the frustrating thing, I think for everyone involved, from the market to corporations.
BURNETT: I mean Trump, when the Chinese say, well, what's Trump going to do versus Trump tomorrow? Right? It's really negotiating with himself. PETER TUCHMAN, TRADER AT THE NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE: Relative to
what Dan said. I think, look, the market -- the market has caved in from February 19th, when we were trading at record highs to the lows where they are now. Yes, were a little bit off those lows, but it was all about messaging. It was -- we still don't know anything more than we did then. We don't have written in stone what the numbers are, who's getting tariffs, who's going to be, who's going to suffer, who's going to benefit, who's paying for any of these things? We don't -- we don't. It's still all unknowns.
So, the market went all the way down to here on unknowns. And now, they're bouncing back on small short term emotional bounces because people are just trying to find hope. It's like Jim Cramer said, what is it going to take for people to start buying stocks again?
But you know, look, what you know are things that I don't know, to know that if what you're saying is a reality, that the boats are backed up and that there is going to be this complete breakdown of supply chain, the logistics in ships and trucks and all that is going to shut down everything, and it's going to affect everybody in the stores, that -- when that finally hits the market, that's a reality.
[19:10:15]
BURNETT: And that's what you were saying.
TUCHMAN: And it's not going to handle quite well.
IVES: Three weeks, time's ticking. You know, you talked about it in terms of yesterday in terms of the CEOs, the reality of the situation. It's hitting.
ALEXIS GLICK, FORMER MORGAN STANLEY EXECUTIVE: Yeah. And I think there's a combination of a couple of things. The one is the failure to communicate effectively. No one is speaking from the same hymn sheet, right?
And when you're running a business, running a White House, right. The role of the chief of staff is one of the most important roles in the world, because that is the person who coordinates the message, the planning, the strategies, the deals, et cetera.
Right now, the communication and cadence out of the White House and all the other branches right now is not in sync. Now, some of that is, it's your first 100 days. These new lieutenants were not in the last administration. They are in this administration.
And we know that the president likes to have the last say. The difference right now is the communication effort, the coordination of speaking from the same hymn sheet is coming from everyone else outside in the business world, coming from corporate America, from those billionaire donors, from those founders, they're all going in a swan song, a chorus, and going to the White House and saying, this has to stop. We have to put an end to this.
BURNETT: The thing is, though, Paul, when you look at it and Ken Griffin, by the way, who we just played, they're going to play more of him in a second. He donated $1 million to the inauguration. He's a big GOP donor. He wasn't always a Trump guy.
But the point is, he -- he was behind Trump at this, right? And Trump comes in and does this, right? And what has happened? The question is, can it be undone?
We talk about three weeks to -- to whether you have some sort of economic Armageddon. But it could be bigger than that. And let me just play more of what Ken said.
PAUL HICKEY, CO-FOUNDER, BESPOKE INVESTMENT GROUP: Yeah.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: The financial markets, no brand compared to the brand of the U.S. treasuries, U.S. treasury market, the strength of the U.S. dollar and the strength, the creditworthiness of U.S. treasuries, no brand came close. We put that brand at risk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: Think about it. I interrupt you, but you know, he has a major presence on the floor of the stock exchange, right? Citadel is one of three. It's the largest, probably the largest market maker on the floor. And so that -- his worries about the brand being eroded is significant, speaks volumes. Exactly.
HICKEY: And there has been a ding in the brand. Theres some -- there's some scratches. But we saw two earnings reports after the close today from IBM and ServiceNow. And both of them have mentioned the fact that it's not necessarily a major point at this, a major problem at this point. That doesn't mean it can't get worse, but it's not a major problem. But to the --
BURNETT: Was that their -- that their signal is sort of like if you pull it back, maybe what we're saying to what if you go ahead and put the brakes on, we can stop it.
HICKEY: And the retailers, the comments, the softening stance. Yesterday it came right after the retailers came in to visit and news reports all over were that it was the worst start to an administration for the S&P in history, the worst start to the U.S. dollar index in history.
And because there is so much uncertainty, the Beige Book comes out today from the Federal Reserve. It's published eight times a year. Mentions of the word uncertainty going back to 1970 were twice as high than this latest report than they've ever mentioned. And it's because --
BURNETT: Twice as high ever.
HICKEY: Twice as high. It's because it's policy by eighth ball and investment by eighth ball.
BURNETT: I love it. The guy brings an eighth ball.
HICKEY: Every day, it's a different -- it's a different -- it's outlook. Good outlook.
IVES: That's almost like a whiteboard.
GLICK: And think about this, when a -- when a new CEO steps into a role, they are always advised in the first quarter to kitchen sink it, right? That means right when you step into the new role, right, you -- you take the write downs. You do the things that the business needs to turn around. I think there are folks in his, in his circle who feel we had to come in here and kitchen sink some things from the past administration.
How many executive orders do we see on day one? Everyone knew we were going to do things with trade policy. The thing is, you are doing far more than kitchen sinking it, right?
IVES: It's the unintended consequences that's now set off. We talk about whether its recession, stagflation. These are all the --
BURNETT: It's a big unknown when you talk about the three weeks when you were talking, we were talking about the animals and the stuffed animals that are all sitting there, all these, these millions of small businesses suffering. I mean, are you even able to tell right now what can be -- can it all just go back the way it was?
IVES: But -- but it can't because that and like what Paul's talking about is that like everything with ServiceNow, IBM. But it's like -- that's like looking at a vacation picture. But you're looking in in hindsight. And then there was a car accident after the after that picture.
I mean, the point is that -- yeah, exactly.
HICKEY: And that's the cutting tariffs in half to 75 percent. Thats not really, you know, like, oh, everything's hunky dory now. I mean, that --
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: Right. It's like you're giving in against yourself but it's still horrific that would have been -- yeah.
HICKEY: So, it's terrible. I mean that that pool toy that we were talking about last time would be instead of 50 bucks, 35 bucks or something.
[19:15:01]
BURNETT: I mean. Right, right. Exactly, yes.
GLICK: I suspect, though, I suspect -- my strong instinct on this coming out of the first the -- as we discussed the targets, the Wal- Mart's, the Home Depots, everybody going in there, that is -- that is the first step in a very big reality check, right? That is -- that is that -- that is the big reality check.
So -- from what I understand, I believe they know that that we have now gone on the precipice of going too far, right? The question is, can we contain the damage or is the damage greater than we think?
BURNETT: And this cut -- if this "Wall Street Journal" reporting pans out, because there is a point, as China said, who knows what he says tomorrow, right? But if that's true, you are going to 75 percent. Those are still the worst tariffs in the history of tariffs.
TUCHMAN: But the fact that, look, it seems like Bessent is the adult in the room. Finally, he surfaced yesterday by -- and it was almost cryptic because he said he can't. He said that the -- the negative or aggressive narrative around tariffs is not sustainable. He didn't accept the responsibility for it, because nobody likes to do that within their but that but that started the cannonball of or the -- you know, the snowball going down the hill.
Look, I think it's important for us to really look back at what happened yesterday. Those three, 360 degree moves by -- by Elon Musk, by the press, by the president, you know, think about.
BURNETT: All shifting their tone.
IVES: Coordinated.
TUCHMAN: Coordinated shifting in tone like stepping away from -- think about it. Why was the market so scared about him possibly getting rid of Powell, right? We just talked about what a CEO of a new company doesn't do. He does not change. You don't change captains of the ship mid -- midstream, especially if the ship is going down.
HICKEY: Powell commentary, all the talk -- I don't think there was really honestly any chance of him going ever being fired. I think it's all set the stage for a scapegoat. If we do go into a recession and see, I wanted rates lower.
GLICK: Interest rates, interest rates are high. It is hurting business, right? And so, adding this into the mix is an issue. What you did see in their earnings reports today is the earnings reports today -- I mean, Verizon, Chipotle, they talked about the consumer. They talked about passing on costs.
So, a couple of weeks ago it was -- well, we think we can redirect and we won't charge the consumer. Now more and more companies are coming out and saying there's no choice but to pass --
IVES: And they're sending the emails. Get ready. Price increase. Shoe company --
BURNETT: Okay. Can I ask what happens though, in this this concept of trust that Ken brought up, Ken Griffin brought up, okay? And the drawing I had to just a very simple circles. Okay?
This is the size of the U.S. treasury market, $28 trillion, okay? That's -- that's all of our outstanding government bond. Germany, actually, that's probably not. That's -- that's probably even too big. Germany, $3 trillion, okay?
So, if you're not going to put money in U.S. treasuries right now and you're looking for something else with a safe reputation, you could be looking at German bonds. Theres not enough of them.
So, right now, you can say you're losing trust in this. I'm losing trust. I don't want to be. I don't want to be in the dollar. Where else can it go?
HICKEY: There's not really that many options. And also, again, we're -- we're -- it's been less than 100 days, you know? So, I mean, you can't -- I don't think you can undo everything in 100 days. So --
BURNETT: But can that trust --
IVES: But -- but the problem is it goes back to that's the sell America thesis. That's where money's going. Is it going to Europe? Is money going to China?
And we see from an international perspective. And like when, when -- when Griffin says things like that, as you talked about, that is -- I mean, when he talks, everyone listens.
BURNETT: It's not just an intellectual point he's making.
TUCHMAN: No, no, because it affects him. He -- he is a major presence on the floor of the stock exchange. And citadel is -- as a market maker. So, if it's affecting the brand, its affecting it reflects on his brand as well. Okay?
And it's the market. We think about it. This all has to do with -- with the stock market. How is the market responding to these things. And you know, look, I spoke to somebody on the floor who happens to be a Trump supporter and gotcha.
And he said to me, I said he goes, did you ever really think that they were going to raise tariffs, 145 percent? I -- I said, what are you saying to me? He means so that we should have presumed that this was just like, you know, I'm throwing it out into the air. You know?
I said we should presume that what the president says is at some level fact. And that's so --
BURNETT: Well, you should want to presume that. You should want to trust the president of the United States. I think we're like in a la- la-land here.
GLICK: We see the economic data in the next couple of weeks, when we start to see the tea leaves on durable goods, you start to see the tea leaves on employment. I'm telling you, they're going to reverse course because they're going to see not just the stock market. They're going to see the economic data.
IVES: The category five storms coming. You're at the beach and you're like, oh, storm doesn't even look that bad. And now it's coming. That's the reality. BURNETT: All right. Well, thank you all. Good to have you.
And next, the breaking news, Russia launching a massive strike against Ukraine's capita right now. We have reports Russia is firing ballistic missile strikes from multiple directions coming in towards Kyiv. As Trump again tonight sides with Putin on a ceasefire.
[19:20:03]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think we have a deal with Russia. We have to get a deal with Zelenskyy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And former First Lady Michelle Obama speaking out tonight about the rumors that that she skipped Trump's inauguration because of marital problems.
And tonight, we're going to take you to the late pope's hometown in Argentina. Mourners right now, with a massive gathering to honor their soccer club's most famous fan, Pope Francis.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Breaking news, explosions in Kyiv from a massive missile and drone attack. The mayor of the Ukrainian capital says residents of one building are stuck under rubble.
[19:25:01]
A member of Ukraine's parliament posting: Kyiv hasn't heard terror this loud in a long time.
The attack coming just minutes after Trump claimed from the Oval Office that Russia is ready to make a deal with Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think we have a deal with Russia. We have to get a deal with Zelenskyy and I hope that Zelenskyy, I thought it might be easier to deal with Zelenskyy. So far, it's been harder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: It's been harder with Zelenskyy because the U.S. proposal, at least thus far, is giving Putin his wish list. They recognize Russian control of Crimea. They have a cease fire along the current front lines, which could mean Russia keeps about 20 percent of Ukraine's territory, keeps what its got. Trump also revealing tonight that he will meet with Putin soon. Now, when asked whether he would meet with Zelenskyy when they're both in Rome for the pope's funeral, he did not commit.
Fred Pleitgen is OUTFRONT with this report tonight from Moscow. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Russian state TV praising the Trump administration after the vice president issued a stern warning: sign a cease fire deal now.
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's time for them to either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process.
PLEITGEN: Kyiv is refusing to hear the warnings, the anchor says. President Trump is fuming after Kyiv says it won't meet one of his key demands, de facto acknowledging Crimea, which Russia has been occupying for 11 years as Russian territory.
Trump lashing out at Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in a social media post.
The situation for Ukraine is dire, he writes. He can have peace or he can fight for another three years before losing the whole country.
While the White House hasn't confirmed details, an official familiar with the framework told CNN it would also put a cease fire in place along the current front lines of the war, meaning Russia would get to keep nearly all the territory its forces have occupied since the start of the full on invasion in 2022.
But after another night of major drone attacks, left more than a dozen dead across Ukraine, one official said, Kyiv residents in no mood to be told to give up land.
Peace is not worth any bargaining, this woman says. Bargaining is simply not possible. We do not need peace at this price.
And he says, I think it's right that Ukraine defended its borders and said that Crimea is part of Ukraine and did not recognize it as part of Russia.
But on the streets of Moscow, a very different scene. Optimism still prevailing that a deal can be made with the help of President Trump.
Of course, we believe a settlement is possible, this man says. You just need to sit down at the negotiating table to make the settlement possible.
Earlier, Biden's administration did not even try to reach an agreement, this man adds. No one listened to us, did not want to listen to us. Today, they heard us and hope emerged for us to reach an agreement.
And I ask this man if he thinks Trump could forge a peace deal.
I don't think so, he says. Our president will call the shots.
And Russian Leader Vladimir Putin once again showing he is calling the shots, meeting with his military industrial commission, telling them to make more weapons and fast.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: More weapons and fast, Fred, an economy that is now a full war economy, something you can't turn around quickly. I mean, right now as we speak, though, that massive Ukraine attack on Kyiv from Russia, we understand a combination of drones and ballistic missiles, is -- what do you read into that happening right now?
PLEITGEN: Well, it's very difficult to say. I mean, one of the things that we know about that attack, Erin, is that it has been ongoing for about two hours, the Ukrainian sources say. And the latest that we're getting from Kyiv is that Kyiv's mayor says that there is actually one building that was hit in the city center of Kyiv, and that several people are trapped there under the rubble.
So, that attack actually still seems to be ongoing, and it seems to be a massive attack as far as the Ukrainians are telling us at this point in time. But, of course, it is one that where they say that there are potentially still missiles in the air. But as far as the negotiations are concerned, it certainly doesn't seem as though the Russians feel as though they're under much pressure right now from the Trump administration.
In fact, the things that we're hearing from the Kremlin is they're saying, look, there's still a lot of difficult issues that need to be sorted out.
But one of the things that really caught our eye, Erin, was an interview that the kremlin spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, gave to a French publication where he said that Russia is going to achieve its war aims, as he put it, either by peaceful means or militarily, Erin.
BURNETT: And showing sounds like from those comments, Fred, that the war aims are still on the table, right?
[19:30:01]
So, negotiation or not, the war aims still are out there.
Thank you very much, Fred, from Moscow tonight.
OUTFRONT next, who is Pete Hegseth's wife, who is clearly part of his inner professional circle as the head of the Pentagon. Former Fox producer who doesn't have a job at the Pentagon still tried to get a security clearance, though.
Plus, the leader of a Black megachurch leading a nationwide boycott after Target rolled back its DEI efforts and now, Target is listening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, they hear me. The cash register hears me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:35:16]
BURNETT: All right. New tonight, the embattled defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, seen leaving the White House for a visit that was not on the official schedule today. It comes as Hegseth is under increasing fire for sharing military plans in a Signal group chat. This is a second Signal group chat. And this group included a lot of personal people, including his brother and his wife. His wife is not an employee of the defense department, nor is his brother.
And tonight, CNN is learning more about his wife, Jennifer Hegseth. She is a former Fox producer who is constantly by Hegseth side and has even requested a security clearance for herself.
Brian Todd is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She's not formally employed at the Pentagon, and it's unclear whether she has a security clearance, though a source tells CNN she's applied for one.
A Pentagon spokesperson said the department does not discuss security clearances for any individual. But tonight, Jennifer Hegseth is firmly entrenched in her husband's inner circle and in his controversy. Jennifer Hegseth was in a recent second Signal group chat in which her husband, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, shared sensitive information about U.S. military operations against the Houthi rebels.
Pete Hegseth didn't refute the reporting that he shared information on a Signal chat with his wife, but did say this to Fox News.
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: What was shared over Signal then and now, however you characterize it, was informal, unclassified coordinations for media coordination and other things.
TODD: Jennifer Hegseth met her husband when they both worked at Fox News. Each has three children from previous marriages, and they have one child together.
Jennifer Hegseth has been perpetually by her husband's side since his confirmation process earlier this year. She often went with him to his meetings with senators on Capitol Hill, and a Senate aide tells CNN there was particular frustration among female senators that Jennifer Hegseth was there because they were looking to ask Pete Hegseth about allegations against him of sexual assault, which he has denied.
Jennifer Hegseth's presence at those meetings, quote, totally changed the dynamic of the conversations about the assault allegations, the aide said.
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET), FORMER U.S. AIR FORCE INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: Really put a damper on those senators ability to actually ask the most sensitive questions and to get a real flavor for what he was all about, whether he was being truthful or whether he was, you know, trying to hide something.
TODD: Multiple sources tell CNN, Pete Hegseth has grown increasingly paranoid about potential leaks to the media within the Pentagon and has begun, depending on a smaller circle for counsel, including his wife.
HEGSETH: It was Jesus and Jenny.
TODD: A U.S. official tells CNN, Jennifer Hegseth shares her husband's distrust of many media outlets besides Fox. Jennifer Hegseth has also attended at least one official meeting with her husband at the Pentagon in March, with Britain's defense secretary.
Pentagon Press Secretary Kingsley Wilson tells CNN, that Jennifer Hegseth, quote, exited the meeting before any sensitive and classified discussions occurred.
Still, one watchdog says her mere presence at that meeting could send concerning signals.
GREG WILLIAMS, DIRECTOR, PROJECT ON GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT'S CENTER FOR DEFENSE INFORMATION: If foreign leaders can't count on her secretary of defense not to share sensitive information with their spouse or other personal connections, whether via signal or in-person meetings. It's an -- it inevitably lessens their willingness to share sensitive information with us. That makes us less safe.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (on camera): Pentagon Press Secretary Kingsley Wilson tells CNN that Jennifer Hegseth is a, quote, incredibly accomplished woman and leader. Wilson also said of her that she is a trusted advisor to her husband and an advocate for military families -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Brian, thank you very much.
And with me now, journalist Gretchen Carlson. Jennifer Hegseth was one of her producers when she was an anchor at Fox News. She also worked with Pete Hegseth. She is also the co-founder of Lift Our Voices.
Also here, former Democratic Congressman Max Rose. He was a senior adviser to former Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin. And also, Max, of course, you served in Afghanistan.
So, Gretchen, you know, just trying to understand this a little bit such that you can explain. Why do you think Secretary Hegseth is keeping his wife so close and so intimately involved in, obviously, very serious things? I mean, this is not even talking about the classified strike details, but those of what's going on at the Pentagon?
GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST: Well, keep in mind that he said during his confirmation hearings that he was a changed man because of two things. Jenny and Jesus. Now, I will say that from a Christian perspective, his behavior has not lived up to what most Christians would believe is the right thing to do, which is to take accountability, to ask for forgiveness, to say that you've made mistakes and move on.
By the way, this story would have been over if he would have just owned it from the beginning.
But I think what's really also important here is that you have to understand the inside of Fox News, where, first of all, she was probably one of his producers from time to time when he filled in on the week show of "Fox and Friends". He was on the weekends.
And producers are your trusted advisors, but there's also a dynamic at Fox News with the idea that the world is out against you, right?
[19:40:00]
That there's sort of this belief that everyone is there to get you. And so I think that were seeing that play out now in the way in which he's deflecting things that people say he's doing wrong, and he's going just into his isolated chamber with his wife.
BURNETT: And, Max, let me ask you about that. Okay?
So, these group chats and as Gretchen said, he had he own the first one, right? Where Jeffrey Goldberg is. I don't know what word even now to use is, is added, let's just say added. I won't put it. I won't put an adjective on it into the group.
But this other group, with his brother and his wife and his lawyer and ten other people, can you think of a single good reason when you worked at the defense department under Austin, can you think of a single good reason for such a group chat to exist, where Houthi strike plans, the same ones that we all saw published, would be put?
MAX ROSE (D), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Of course not. I mean, it's ludicrous. Look, Signal chats are very common in politics and all the rest. So, they may be used to that form of communication, but it is incredibly rare to see something like this happen. But it's also not isolated, right?
This is a long narrative, a long story here of Pete Hegseth's utter incompetence and utter disregard for the way national defense is supposed to be executed. You know, from his first nomination, leading organizations like VoteVets came out and said, this is really, really dangerous. Okay, if you want to play politics, do it with another cabinet secretary, because people's lives are on the line here.
And unfortunately, we're seeing that story play out.
BURNETT: And I'm curious if his own. Theres been those close to him in the Pentagon who are working people. He, you know, supposedly trusted, have left, have spoken out, are speaking out. One of them is his top spokesman, Gretchen, saying there had been a month of total chaos.
I mean, a complete loss of confidence, at least among many in him. I mean, how -- how is how could you see him even operating right now when you have all of those defections? CARLSON: Well, remember, everything is not him. During the
confirmation hearings, when he was asked by senators about whether or not it was the rape allegation, or any other things that had come up, his misuse of finances, he would say, well, that -- those are smears, right? Or it's fake news.
He has never been accountable for anything. And now what I think is incredibly interesting is that these were his handpicked people now. So, now, the Republican talking point to support him has been that the Department of Defense is actually out to get him, but that makes no sense because these are his people.
BURNETT: And, Max, at what point does do they have to make a decision based on whether he even has confidence of the people who work in the Defense Department and the nation's armed forces?
ROSE: Sure. You know, Donald Trump doesn't have any permanent friends or allies. So, he's certainly in a very tenuous situation here. But I think what people don't understand about the secretary of defense is it's an operational role that makes, on a daily basis, decisions about the movement of troops, the movement of assets and people's lives are actually on the line here.
BURNETT: Yeah.
ROSE: So, at the very least, his actions are a distraction for a force that includes millions of people. And at the worst, its actually putting people's lives in danger. So, this goes far beyond politics.
BURNETT: And now, the stuff being posted.
Gretchen, I want to ask you one other thing before we go, because in the context of all of the work you do and lift our voices, Michelle Obama is speaking out, finally about all that speculation that had just kind of gone viral about the state of her marriage, because she did not appear at the inauguration and other events, but it was the inauguration one that really sparked it all. And she just spoke out about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER U.S. FIRST LADY: My decision to skip the inauguration, you know what people don't realize or my decision to make choices at the beginning of this year that suited me, were met with such ridicule and criticism, like people couldn't believe that I was saying no for any other reason, that they had to assume that my marriage was falling apart. It took everything in my power to not do the thing that was right, or that was -- was that -- that was perceived as right, but do the thing that was right for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Look, I mean, at first, talk went to her marriage.
CARLSON: I mean, 2025, and we're still looking at women in a totally different way than we look at men. Donald Trump did not attend the inauguration of Joe Biden. We didn't immediately go to, oh, he must be getting divorced from Melania. I mean, there's other rumors about that for other reasons, but it had nothing to do with the fact that he wasn't going to the inauguration.
So, this is still sexist. Unfortunately, in the era that we live in. Look, it's a totally different decision if she didn't go based on decorum. I'm not arguing whether she should have gone to the inauguration or to Jimmy Carter's funeral, but it's a different story when suddenly, it must mean that she's getting divorced. I mean, this would not happen to a man.
BURNETT: No, it isn't. It would not always be seen through the lens of what is his relationship with his wife.
CARLSON: No.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you both very much.
CARLSON: Thank you.
BURNETT: And next --
[19:45:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: When Target stepped back, what was your initial reaction?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It felt like a gut punch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: We're going to take you inside that growing boycott against Target after it sided with Trump and abandoned its DEI policy. Did it work? Wait until you see what has happened.
And pictures from the Vatican where thousands are honoring Pope Francis tonight as mourners gather in his hometown as well for a very special memorial. And we will take you there live tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Tonight, boycotting target foot traffic at Target, just basically stores around the country, has dropped off for ten weeks running. I mean, that's incredible. Ten weeks in a row, there's been a drop and that has brought traffic down about 10 percent from a year ago.
And that's a massive move for a company like target. And it came after a Black megachurch doubled down on calls for a boycott. When target announced that it would roll back DEI efforts in compliance with the Trump administration's new orders.
[19:50:02]
Ryan Young is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PASTOR JAMAL BRYANT, NEW BIRTH MISSIONARY BAPTIST CHURCH: It is not because of tariffs. It is not because of the stock market. It is because of the power of Black unification and the Black dollar. $12 trillion in spending power is not anything that we should laugh at.
YOUNG (voice-over): What started out as a movement to send a message against Target downsizing its DEI initiatives --
BRYANT: Two hundred thousand people signed to be a part of the Target fast.
YOUNG: -- led to Target stores nationwide taking a nosedive in foot traffic down for ten consecutive weeks, dropping 9 percent in February, and falling 6.5 percent in March compared to one year ago. The significant decline also impacted by spending pullbacks during decreased consumer confidence and tariff uncertainty.
BRYANT: So, the fast shifts to a full out boycott.
YOUNG: Prominent Atlanta area megachurch pastor Jamal Bryant's call for a boycott during Lent, a fast aimed at target and is still not over.
BRYANT: We had four asks, and only walked away with one thing. Target has agreed that by July the 31st, they will complete the pledge of $2 billion for Black business.
We gave you 40 days to answer four, not one. We ain't going back in there.
YOUNG: You met with the CEO?
BRYANT: Yes.
YOUNG: What was that like?
BRYANT: We're still meeting. I think it's a healthy start for where it is that we are.
YOUNG: Do you think they hear you?
BRYANT: Oh, they hear me. The cash register hears me.
YOUNG: Target has not responded to CNN's interview request or questions about the boycotts impact. In an internal note on diversity from targets chief equity officer earlier this year, the company says they are still committed to inclusivity and offers a wide range of products and services, including items made by companies that are Black and minority owned.
CHANTEL POWELL, FOUNDER, PLAY PITS: What was disappointment?
YOUNG: Five megachurches held bullseye black markets over Easter weekend to help power small Black business owners. Several of them stunned and saddened by Target's policy reversal.
You had products on the shelves at Target.
POWELL: We definitely felt a hit, right? So, our sales in store are currently 30 percent less than what they were last year. People feel hurt because it felt like Target was for us. It felt like Target believed in us.
YOUNG: When Target stepped back, what was your initial reaction?
CARLTON MACKEY, BLACK MEN SMILE CREATOR: It felt like a gut punch, to be honest. The way Target had positioned itself in the Black community suggested that there was a commitment to see it swept away in an instant. It felt like a rug pull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Skincare products for children, especially Black and Brown children.
YOUNG: Patrice Chappelle and her son started MelanBrand Skin in 2023, with the goal of getting her product onto the shelves of Target.
PATRICE CHAPPELLE, FOUNDER, MELANBRAND SKIN: With all the rollbacks on the die. Thats going to, you know, make it a lot harder for us to get into the store. It's no longer inclusive, and it feels that -- it feels like they have really just turned their backs on us.
BRYANT: We ask that because Black people spend upwards of $12 million a day, that they would invest a quarter of $1 billion in the Black banks, so people would have access to capital for businesses and for home ownership. We asked the Target to invest in HBCUs and to give a reexamination of what DEI would look like in the future.
YOUNG: Ryan Young, CNN, Stonecrest, Georgia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: And next tonight, a special live report from the pope's hometown, where his beloved soccer team is right now holding a very special service.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:58:01]
BURNETT: Breaking news, Argentina's San Lorenzo soccer club just hosting a mass for its most famous fan, Pope Francis. San Lorenzo was the pope's hometown team, and he remained a card carrying member during his papacy. This was his official membership card.
Let's go to David Culver because he is there live.
And, David, you know, this is the beginning of what is going to be a -- truly a celebration of life.
DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Celebration's the word that we've been hearing over and over, and people have likened it, Erin, to celebration of mass. And as you point out of Pope Franciss life, he loved San Lorenzo.
And what I've noticed here is there are going to be bigger celebrations expected for Saturday. But for now, it's been isolated, small, very devout, fervent pockets, if you will, that we have encountered throughout the city. What played out here in Buenos Aires and in this little chapel, which is, by the way, the spiritual birthplace of San Lorenzo, was a mass and then a felt like a pep rally at the end. They all were clapping and cheering. So, there was a lot of upbeat, positive attitudes.
But I want to go back to that car that you mentioned, because this is something that obviously was very dear to the pope and something that's being talked about by a lot of folks. Here is his ID number. And if you look closely, it says 88235. And people have said the pope died at 88 years old, and it was 2:35 in the morning local here in Argentina.
And I realized today a lot of folks are actually card-carrying members.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CULVER: How long have you been a fan?
RAMIRO RODRIGUEZ, SAN LORENZO SOCCER CLUB FAN: All my life.
CULVER: Your whole life since you were a kid?
RODRIGUEZ: Yes, like -- like my -- my mother, my grandparents, my sister, my dog.
CULVER: Do you have a card?
RODRIGUEZ: Yes, yes.
CULVER: You do?
RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
CULVER: The fact that the pope had his number. People are talking about that, right?
RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
CULVER: Eight, eight, two, three, five.
RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
CULVER: What did you think about that?
RODRIGUEZ: I think that it has to be with destiny. That's -- that's what I think.
CULVER: So, not a coincidence.
RODRIGUEZ: Not a coincidence. (END VIDEO CLIP)
CULVER: Erin, the pope's love for sports is rooted in also trying to get young people not to be caught up in shuttered in, you know, isolated in this virtual world. He wanted them to be social, and out on the streets. It was the same message he sent to his priests here.
RODRIGUEZ: Yeah, yeah, it's a lovely exchange you have with that young man.
Thanks so much to you, David.
And thanks so much to all of you.
Let's send it off now to Anderson in Rome.
