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Erin Burnett Outfront

Soon: Cardinals Take Second Vote To Elect New Pope; Fed: If Trump Tariffs Stick, Inflation & Unemployment Likely To Rise; Judge: Deportations To Libya, Saudi Arabia would Violate Court Order; Pakistan & India, Both Nuclear Armed, At Risk Of Wider Conflict. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired May 07, 2025 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:25]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:

We are live from Vatican City in Rome, where the second round of voting to elect a new pope begins in just a few hours, the first round taking much longer than expected. So, what does it mean?

Plus, the Fed's stark warning tonight. The chairman signaling Trump's trade war could mean higher inflation and higher unemployment -- a terrifying combination. Einstein and Ives are OUTFRONT.

And breaking news tonight, the Trump administration's plan to send migrants now to Libya. And it is hitting a major roadblock tonight from a federal judge.

We'll explain it all. Let's go OUTFRONT.

And good evening. Welcome to our special edition of OUTFRONT. I'm Erin Burnett, live from Vatican City in Rome.

We saw black smoke here at the Vatican tonight. And we are hours away from the cardinals once again, meeting again to vote at the Sistine Chapel right there over my left shoulder. Behind that building is where they will be.

Here's what happened tonight. I mean, just about four hours ago, I was sitting right here where I am right now, but there were 30,000 people. According to Rome police in St. Peter's Square around us.

Now, they had been waiting for hours well past the window when smoke was supposed to come. And then in an almost black sky, because night had fallen, we saw it -- thick, billowing black smoke, meaning no pope, no cardinal tonight, getting the required two thirds majority to be the next pope.

But as I speak, the cardinals are inside the Casa Santa Marta, which is also behind me. The rooms there are simple -- a bed, desk, dresser, an end table. Each cardinal assigned to a room by a lottery, and when they wake up in just a few hours, they will again move as a group to the Sistine Chapel. But they will not see news or social media or their phones,

newspapers, anything, the Internet, absolutely nothing until there is a pope. And the suspense here builds, there will again be tens of thousands of people. This massive square and the streets leading to it blocked by masses of people. That was incredible.

Today, even people with no view of the chimney still jammed shoulder to shoulder, watching and waiting for that white smoke which will signal a pope has been selected. And I want to play for you what it sounded like when we finally saw the black smoke. After waiting for three hours today, so much longer than anyone expected.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

BURNETT: That was the sound of 30,000 people maybe hoping because they knew it wasn't expected. Then realizing that it was indeed black smoke, they had hope for an instant that perhaps it could be white. That would truly have been a miraculous outcome. But it was not expected. It did not yet happen.

And no one knows at this moment how many front runners there are, or what faults exist between the voting cardinals. This is all completely unknown, which is incredible in the modern world, making it impossible to predict how long this could take because the pope, of course, matters not just to the 1.5 billion Catholics in the world, but to the whole world. Because of the importance of the pope.

And the online markets are going haywire over this incredible uncertainty. According to one of the world's largest prediction markets, Cardinal Pietro Parolin of Italy has emerged as a favorite to succeed Pope Francis. We saw a lot of him today.

He's been the Vatican secretary of state for the past 12 years under Pope Francis. He led the proceedings today, the cardinal giving the homily in the mass sort of embraced him in what could have been interpreted as some sort of a support but unclear.

Christopher Lamb, our Vatican correspondent, joins me here live.

And it was, Christopher, you noticed that interaction between Cardinal Re and Cardinal Parolin just before the sequestration in the Sistine Chapel, but now preparing for day two, we are going to get four votes we expect to take place on day two. But the delay and how long it took tonight would -- would have been unexpected to the cardinals in the room as well.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Erin, I think the delay only added to the sense of drama and suspense and anticipation that there's been in and around the Vatican ever since this conclave got underway, despite being hundreds of years old and being full of ritual and tradition, it still seems to captivate people's attention. The square filled today with people with their eyes fixed on that chimney above the Sistine Chapel, waiting for smoke.

Of course, no one is going to know the result of this conclave before anyone else. Everyone's going to know at the same time. And so, it is a moment of high drama, of tension.

[19:05:02]

Of course, people wanting to see who the cardinals will elect as pope.

Here is my take on the day's events.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB (voice-over): After days of mourning of Pope Francis and intense discussions and meetings. The only thing on people's lips in the Vatican is who will be Francis's successor. A wide-open race with, at this stage, little consensus on who might be chosen.

Cheers for the American cardinals heading to the Vatican. This perhaps the best chance yet of an American pontiff.

A special mass for the election of a pope in St. Peter's Basilica and a message to the electors from the dean of the College of Cardinals.

CARDINAL GIOVANNI BATTISTA RE, DEAN OF THE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS: This is a human act for which every personal consideration must be set aside.

LAMB: With the cardinals gathered and sworn to follow the secrecy rules of the conclave, and, if elected, to serve faithfully, some have pointed to possible frontrunners. Italy's Cardinal Parolin, the Holy See secretary of state, receiving, it seems, some encouragement from Cardinal Re today. Filipino Cardinal Tagle, who will be the first Asian pontiff. Chicago born Cardinal Prevost, who would be the first American pope. And Congolese Cardinal Ambongo, a respected figure who may receive votes.

But as an old saying about papal election goes, he who enters the conclave as pope leaves it as a cardinal.

In lockdown, totally isolated from the outside world, the eyes of the world are fixed on one small Vatican chimney, waiting for white smoke.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAMB: Well, Erin, it was really expected tonight that it would be black smoke. No one really thought the cardinals would come to a decision.

But the first vote is very important. Of course, we don't get the tally of the votes, but we do know that in that first vote, we get to see where the support is moving, which cardinals have got the most number of votes, and perhaps which cardinals have unexpectedly picked up votes.

And it's from that first vote that cardinal support starts to move to other candidates. It's very important. Of course, tomorrow, going into more rounds of voting, we should start to eventually see some frontrunners emerge. And of course, hopefully that white smoke at some point -- Erin. BURNETT: All right. Well, Christopher, please stay with me. Of

course, we're both here in different parts of this massive St. Peter's Square in front of the basilica and the Sistine Chapel, where the voting will commence in hours.

Joining us as well, Elise Allen, our Vatican analyst, and Father Matthew Berrios, rector of St. Patrick's Catholic American Parish right here in Rome.

So, you know, Elise, it was a big surprise today. You know, no one expected a pope today. That would have been truly stunning, but they expected it to be a vote. Black smoke and done well before it was done.

So there started to be -- I mean, the crowd was not frustrated, but wonder there would be, you know, intermittent clapping, people would hope. Then there started to be rumors. Were they voting at all?

But it was -- there were more cardinals than last time. I know the prayer ahead of time went a lot longer than expected, but even so, you know, what are you hearing about what happened?

ELISE ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: I think what happened is this is just the first time, you know, for a lot of these guys, 80 percent of these people have never been through conclave before. Many of them have never really been in Rome for any meaningful stretch of time. They come from, you know, remote places that are far away. You know, they don't come to Rome that often.

So, you know, of course, you know, there was, you know, that preaching the, the homily, the reflection they heard, which we heard was quite lengthy.

BURNETT: Quite lengthy, almost an hour.

ALLEN: Yeah, almost an hour, at least 45 minutes when we've heard, which is not nothing. And perhaps there was some explanation of how the process would unfold, you know, for the new guys and on top of that, you know, getting the first round done for people who have not done this before and many of whom don't understand Italian, which is sort of the working language, you know, that all this is happening in.

So I think all those things combined led to sort of this, this big delay that we saw.

BURNETT: So, if, Father Berrios, three of the past four conclaves were done in two days, very, very fast, I mean, you know, five rounds of voting would be today and tomorrow. That'd be it. That's what happened last time.

But you are looking at some signs that give you a feel for how long this one will go from, from what we saw today.

FATHER MATTHEW BERRIOS, RECTOR, ST. PATRICK'S CATHOLIC AMERICAN PARISH IN ROME: Yeah. It's no secret that a lot of the cardinals don't really have too much of a sense of one another at this point, for various reasons. And so, while maybe last week we would have expected to hear something definite by tomorrow, I think it's a better bet to say that after 3 or 4 days, we might have our white smoke then.

[19:10:04]

BURNETT: Yeah. So, but, of course, historically that would be, you know, in some senses incredible in terms of the suspense that would build, right, because of expectations from prior times are for something relatively faster.

Christopher, you know, the cardinals know this and they're sequestered at Casa Santa Marta right now. Perhaps asleep hopefully in their case. But they're there for the duration of the conclave.

So, you know what happened tonight. They finished so late. They're back in this sort of dorm-like hotel where they've drawn rooms by lottery unexpectedly late.

LAMB: Yes. That's right. I mean, imagine they went back, they had dinner, and they will have had some time to talk informally. I think the discussions in Santa Marta are going to be really important.

It's a time where they can talk together, perhaps spend some time one on one or in small groups. It's hard to know exactly, but I think, you know, that time in the Santa Marta will be really important because of course, you go into the Sistine Chapel, they have the vote tallies, and then, of course, they go back to the Santa Marta, which is where they can discuss, you know, what's just happened. And that's where, you know, we might see discussions about, you know, who cardinals might get behind. Maybe cardinals will start to shift their support to certain frontrunner candidates.

So, I think you have this kind of mixture between the spiritual and religious ceremony in the Sistine chapel. And then the more informal, say, politicking in the Santa Marta that mix between, you know, the power of God and the ambition of men, which is part of this conclave.

BURNETT: And, Elise, you know, online markets, which, you know, in this case, they know nothing, but they love when they know nothing making a bet. So, part of it's a chicken and egg, what they hear in the media, what they create. So I don't know, right? You don't know in this case.

But right now, the favorite for the online markets is Cardinal Parolin, the most senior cardinal, the secretary of state, very well- known, appointed by Francis, of course, to be the Vatican secretary of state. So, we don't know where he is. One would presume it's very likely that he's a frontrunner.

But if he is to be pope, that would put this, I would imagine, farther on the much shorter end of things, right? If we're going to go with the known entity, you go fast. Do you think the online markets have a real chance of being right?

ALLEN: With Parolin? You know, I think, as you said, if this is a short conclave, then I think they are correct. You know, Parolin is going into this with a significant amount of support, particularly amongst Italian cardinals and perhaps some cardinals from Africa, because he spent so long there as the Vatican's ambassador.

Basically, you know, in the early years of his diplomatic career. So, he's coming in with quite a bit of support. And so, if this is a short conclave, I think we can absolutely, you know, predict that that might be Parolin.

BURNETT: So, you know, we heard in Christopher's report more Americans than ever and a chance I know you're skeptical of that chance, but a Cardinal Prevost, who we mentioned from Chicago spent a lot of time in South America and in Peru is the one getting the most conversation. What do you know about him?

BERRIOS: Well, I had the great chance last year because he did our confirmation mass at the parish to sit down with him, to get a sense of him chat with him for a little bit. He's a capable leader. He has worked outside the U.S. in Peru, I believe it was for many years. He worked as the minister general for the Augustinian friar.

So, he has worldwide administrative experience and he has worked here in Rome for the last year.

BURNETT: Yeah. And which gives all of that experience. We'll see. I mean, Christopher, you mentioned Cardinal Parolin, the secretary of state for the Vatican. He got that special acknowledgment from Cardinal Battista Re at the mass, you know, sort of that half embrace that I mentioned at the top of the program, you were the one who noticed it.

Why did it stand out to you? Why do you think it was so notable?

LAMB: Well, it was notable because, you know, he was clearly in that embrace, sort of saying, you know, have courage or encouraging him. Now, of course, that could be read in two different ways. It could be, you know, courage for the -- for the conclave because he's seen as a candidate. But it could also be courage or encouragement to him because, of course, Cardinal Parolin is the most senior cardinal bishop and is overseeing the conclave.

But it just stood out to me that Cardinal Re, in that kind of particular way, showed or sought to show encouragement to Cardinal Parolin. And there is talk that Cardinal Re is backing Cardinal Parolin's candidacy. Of course, Cardinal Parolin is a diplomat. So Cardinal Re was a diplomat.

So, I just saw that, you know, subtle embrace there, but seemed to send quite -- he didn't mention Pope Francis by name. He did mention some of the themes of Francis's papacy. He did mention, though, John Paul II, I thought there was some subtle things going on there which I think play into this kind of mysterious process where, you know, the politicking is quite subtle.

[19:15:03]

BURNETT: All right. Christopher, thank you so much. Father Berrios and Elise, thank you all. Being here in these early

hours of the morning outside the Vatican, awaiting, awaiting the next round of voting.

And next, the Fed chair tonight warning of economic uncertainty because of Trump's trade war. A significant warning. Einstein and Ives are OUTFRONT next.

Plus, tonight, we have breaking news. Chief Justice John Roberts just addressing Trump's attacks on the court. The chief justice speaking out. We'll share what he is just saying this hour.

And tensions between India and Pakistan, nuclear superpowers escalating. Pakistan's prime minister warning India now will pay the price. We'll go to the ground, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:20:08]

BURNETT: Breaking news, a major warning about Trump's tariffs tonight from the Fed Chair Jerome Powell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: If the large increases in tariffs that have been announced or sustained, they're likely to generate a rise in inflation, a slowdown in economic growth and an increase in unemployment. My gut tells me that uncertainty about the path of the economy is extremely elevated, and that the downside risks have increased.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: And you heard the chuckling there. I mean, an understatement. And yet it's important to emphasize how careful Powell is with his words and his tone, to talk about his gut, to talk about extremely elevated to so openly refer to the horrific combination of rising prices and falling unemployment. Stagflation is a major step.

And that stagflation is why Powell did not cut interest rates, even as Trump has been massing a -- mounting a massive, sorry, pressure campaign on Powell to do just that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have a Fed person who's not really doing a good job. You're not supposed to criticize the Fed. You're supposed to let him do his own thing. But I know much more than he does about interest rates, believe me.

We should lower interest rates. That's the Fed. I hope they lower interest rates.

He should lower interest rates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Dan Ives and Peter Tuchman, Einstein and Ives are back with me now.

And, Dan, Powell said he also said, I'll quote him -- it's really not at all clear what it is we should do. I mean, that's actually pretty unsettling, a perilous moment, right?

And an important admission. It's honest. It's transparent, even though it inspires anxiety.

DAN IVES, GLOBAL HEAD OF TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH, WEDBUSH SECURITIES: Look, I mean, Erin, you're talking about the biggest inflationary policy in 100 years. So, he's unleashed it. I mean, so for Powell, he -- his hands are tied relative to what we're seeing in terms of potential inflation.

How could he lower interest rates? I mean, it's my view if this tariff policy never happened, Powell is either lowering rates today or at least signaling you're going to have significant cuts rest of the year. And that's the sort of quagmire that Powell and I think the economy has been put in. And you saw that he's the adult in the room. And I think that was pretty clear today down in D.C.

BURNETT: And, Peter, you were on the floor as it all was happening.

PETER TUCHMAN, TRADER AT THE NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE: You know, look, I find it fascinating, too. We were just talking about this that, you know, think about it. Let's say this wasn't an election year. And the last fed meeting at the end of 2024, he basically, changed guidance for 2025, cutting it down from four cuts the year in '25 and '26 to two, because the economy and the markets were so strong.

So as Dan just, just said, if this was not an election year and Mr. Trump was not in office and this was just a continuation of the Biden situation right now, the things we would not be going through, what we're going through, and he would have probably cut rates now and then we would have had -- look, normally when this situation, when you cut rates, there's a wonderful emotional relationship between cutting rates and rallying markets.

It's like pouring gas on the fire, right? Because we had growth. 2024, a year, up 23 percent. That's where we could be right now if we did not have this self-inflicted wound that's going on.

IVES: And the stagflation worries.

TUCHMAN: And stagflation -- I mean, he just explained to me in depth what that means. And that is not good, right? When you suddenly have inflation with no growth. Right?

And these things were not components that were part of our day to day in '23 and '24. We had strong markets, strong growth, right? Unemployment at a reasonable level that had gotten it down. And the Fed had done such a good job getting inflation down from eight and change down to where they were at two 2 percent plus, right? So why we're here is baffling. And then still to be playing cat and mouse with as we talk about done, done, done, deals, deals, deals that are not happening, it's baffling.

IVES: Yeah.

BURNETT: Hey, Dan, you got Ford, first major automaker to raise prices due to tariffs. So, their prices are going up and they've cut their cut their forecast I don't mean cut it. I mean, they've -- they've -- they've withdrawn it. They've said we don't even have a forecast for the rest of the year, even though that U.S. models that they make in Mexico are going up by $2,000 each.

So, Ford perhaps your little micro example of stagflation, right? But remember a week ago when Jim Farley was on and we were all talking about it? And, you know, it was a different confidence. He didn't say he wasn't going to -- he wasn't going to raise prices, but he it just was a different tone. I mean, here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Are you confident at this point saying that there's not going to be any price increases coming from Ford trucks or cars this summer?

JIM FARLEY, PRESIDENT & CEO, FORD MOTOR COMPANY: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying -- I'm saying that I'm not going to be specific about our pricing. But I will say one thing. We're announcing today that were going to extend our employee pricing through July 4th.

[19:25:02]

Thats a big commitment.

(END VIDEO CLI) BURNETT: Ford's first now saying they're admitting it, right? Prices are going up. But Ford's not going to be alone, Dan.

IVES: No, I mean, join -- join the crowd, right? I mean, the reality -- and I think that Farley interview I mean think about that just a week ago. Right. And then they cut guidance, basically withdrew guidance. And now you're seeing the price increases.

Look, Erin, we've talked about on the show the last month. I mean, you don't got to ultimately this is not a glass half full, glass half empty. Look at the cargo data. Look at the inventory.

Look at the just the pure math. The math doesn't lie. The prices are coming up. We'll see that in the coming weeks, cars, retail. And that's what we're hearing from small businesses as well as large businesses. It's just the reality of this tariff tsunami.

And that's what Tuchman and I have talked about. It's just you cannot deny the reality.

TUCHMAN: You know, look, we for somebody who had promised prices are going to go lower, and all these wonderful promises about deals and prices going lower to be in this situation right now. And it happened so quickly. Right?

Think about it, February 19th, we were trading at record highs in the market. And even though he was in office, and it was a month after or four weeks after inauguration, that was when this ball started to roll. And it started with a, you know, with sort of a bipolar approach to disseminating information to a market that has handled pandemics, has handled wars, has handled anything. And the market can do that if it's given the facts, if it's not left with uncertainty, and surprises.

And that's what this has been all about. Still to this day, we do not know anything more than the deal on liberation day, any kind of numbers that these large corporations can sink their teeth into. And think about the small businesses, our country -- that's the lifeblood of this country, our small businesses. And we've talked about it, whether it's the -- the stuffed animals or its even small companies.

IVES: And we don't know the details, like what the deals are, there's no deals. And ultimately, you know, what these game of high stakes poker.

TUCHMAN: You know what? If we want to make America great again, then it's clear what the path is. And that's why we're trying to implore the administration to do this, whether they're good deals or bad, deals need to be made so that we have something that we can start checking off the box and have something locked in stone right now so that we can continue.

When you have companies like Ford and General Motors and a lot of these other huge -- these are the -- these are America. We're going back to Ken Griffin, going back to Ken Griffin who said that brand by America has been eroded by this, by this, by this policy when we should be getting policies that are all about growth and all about getting great.

IVES: Yeah.

BURNETT: All right. Well, thank you both. Always good to see you and thank you.

And next, we have the breaking news, a federal judge just putting the Trump administration on notice after the Trump administration in all of this, I don't know if you saw this. They plan to deport undocumented immigrants to El Salvador. Now to Libya.

Also breaking, Pakistan tonight, warning India will pay the price after yesterday's strikes, but my next guest says Pakistan could be the one to blink when it comes to using a nuclear weapon. An unbelievable conversation that we're even having.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:32:58] BURNETT: Breaking news, a federal judge blocking Trump's deportation flights. This time flights to Libya and Saudi Arabia. A new ruling coming just hours after CNN reported that the White House was actually planning to use a large U.S. military plane to deport a group of undocumented immigrants to Libya. Thats a serious flight.

But Libya, for its part, tells CNN there have not been talks with the Trump administration about accepting migrants, and one official says they do not want the migrants brought to their country.

Kristen Holmes is live from the White House.

Kristen, I mean, we're not -- it's now not just El Salvador, right, that you're talking countries like Libya, Saudi Arabia.

What can you tell us about Trump's plans for these new deportation flights?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, there is still a lot of details that we are trying to get answers from the administration on, as you mentioned, we did report this morning that the administration was planning on moving forward with this idea of taking a group of undocumented migrants and bringing them to Libya.

There were a lot of questions that went unanswered. One, when was this flight leaving? Was this a one-time flight, or was this now a plan that they were going to bring multiple flights, multiple groups of migrants to Libya, to Saudi Arabia? And we still don't have the answer to this.

So, what we do know is that this immigration advocacy group filed this emergency petition to stop these flights from happening, saying that it was going to be it would go against all of their rights. And this judge ruled in their favor, saying they would actually go against a directive he previously gave, which was that these people who are being deported, if they were going to a country that was other than their home country, they had to be able to have notice, and they also had to be able to oppose this before they were actually put on a plane.

But I do want to note one thing here, Erin, we still don't know if this plane took off, and from this petition it said that if there were flights that already had gone over to Libya, by the time that this was ruled on, that those migrants be brought back. But we don't know right now the current state of this.

BURNETT: Right, which obviously is so crucial in the context of the fiasco with El Salvador.

[19:35:00]

We are learning, Kristen, also, some new comments from the Supreme Court, Chief Justice John Roberts. I just referenced a moment ago, literally just finding out that he said this.

Trump obviously has been attacking judges who rule against him. The chief justice has just spoken out. Let me just play what he just said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS, U.S. SUPREME COURT: In our Constitution, judges and the judiciary is a co-equal branch of government. Separate from the others with the authority to interpret the Constitution as law. And strike down, obviously, acts of Congress or acts of the president. And that innovation doesn't work if it's not the judiciary -- is not independent. Its job is to, obviously, decide cases. But in the course of that, check the excesses of Congress or of the executive. And that does require a degree of independence.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: He knows the weight of every word. Kristen. The words there carry a lot of weight and come amid major tensions with Trump and so significant to come from the chief justice.

HOLMES: Right. And we don't usually hear him weighing in on politics. And of course, as you say, he knows the weight of every word. He never said Donald Trump's name. He was incredibly diplomatic when he was talking. In fact, he was actually asked about this idea that people should be impeached, and he referred back to a previous statement.

He never really speaks out of turn. And everything that he says is incredibly deliberate. We know this from years of covering him. But as you said, this is coming at a time where even just this morning, Donald Trump was railing against judges. He has called for impeachment. Not just that his followers have doxed judges. We know judges have had to have increased security, particularly around immigration, saying that they were trying to stand in his way, accusing them of being liberal judges.

This is a very important context around Roberts speaking out at this time. I do want to note one thing is really interesting to me. Listening to his interview, Donald Trump's interview over the weekend, where he started to get very deferential to the Supreme Court after building up all of this tension with the court system, you could hear him over and over again repeating, well, were going to do what the Supreme Court says.

Our lawyers are going to do what the Supreme Court says. But, Erin, as we've seen, they have really used the ambiguity in a lot of these Supreme Court rulings to their advantage. And some people believe they're not exactly doing what the Supreme Court says. They say they're following the order, but it's ambiguous.

BURNETT: Right, right. And of course, if we're talking about the word facilitate, there was not ambiguity in the way they were using it.

All right. Thank you very much, Kristen Holmes.

And also new tonight, Pakistan ramping up its threats to India after it launched multiple strikes across Pakistan and Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Pakistan's prime minister warning India that it will, quote, pay the price, vowing his country will avenge those killed.

Now the death toll is also rising tonight, Pakistan saying at least 31 people now dead from the strikes, as we've got some new images and OUTFRONT which show the impact of the Indian strikes.

These are before and after satellite images. So, this is what a Pakistani town looked like on the left. And then on the right. Thats what's left after these strikes.

Nic Robertson is there. He is OUTFRONT tonight in Islamabad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): In the hours after Indias deadly early morning airstrikes, a wave of missiles, the promise of revenge from Pakistan's prime minister. The blood of these martyrs will be avenged, he says. We will take this war to the end.

Both nuclear armed neighbors are leaning into a long history of escalation.

SOFIYA QURESHI, INDIA ARMY COLONEL: It must be said that the Indian armed forces are fully prepared to respond to Pakistani misadventures.

ROBERTSON: Thirty-one, including women and children killed in the overnight strikes, the deepest by India into Pakistan in over 50 years. Pakistan's PM claiming a right to self-defense, and in an emotional speech to parliament praising his air force for shooting down India's prized Rafale fighter jets, the first ever in combat.

AHMED SHARIF CHAUDRY, PAKISTANI MILITARY SPOKESPERSON: So far, I can confirm you that five Indian aircrafts, including three Rafale, one Su-30 and one MiG 29 have been shot down and one Heron drone has also been shot down.

ROBERTSON: CNN can only confirm one Rafale jet came down 40 miles inside Indian controlled Kashmir.

According to the New Delhi government, the strikes hitting nine targets, were in response to last month's killing of 26 civilians in the disputed region of Kashmir by militants, India says without evidence, are from Pakistan, which Islamabad denies.

[19:40:02]

Strikes, rhetoric and emotions pushing these two bitter neighbors to the brink of a wider conflict.

Already deadly artillery shelling across the de facto border in Kashmir has intensified. India claiming more than a dozen civilians killed so far and warning Pakistan not to take it further.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (on camera): And, Erin, we're getting some new details about that attack last night. It was one of the biggest and longest dogfights between fighter jets in recent aviation history. As told by a source this evening, there were 125 fighter jets, Indian and Pakistani, on their respective sides of the border, engaging each other, sometimes at distances of over 100 miles.

Adding to that, that there were 57 commercial airliners in Pakistani airspace, and you get the sense that it was a mercy that there weren't the casualties, that a civilian airliner wasn't caught up in this, Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Nic, thank you very much, in Islamabad.

I want to go OUTFRONT now to Retired Lieutenant General Charlie "Tuna" Moore. He has dealt with the Indian air force in the past.

And, General, I appreciate your time. It's good to see you.

So, when Pakistan vows India is going to pay the price and we will take the war to the end, you know, those -- those words, you know, does India take this at face value? Is this bluster or is this real?

LT. GEN. CHARLIE "TUNA" MOORE (RET.), FORMER DEPUTY COMMANDER, U.S. CYBER COMMAND: Well, good evening, Erin. I think the short answer your question is they take it very seriously. And I say that for a couple reasons.

First, if we look at the history between these two nations since they gained their independence in 1947, we've had four major wars and three of those wars started very similar fashion to how this most recent conflict began with the killing of the 26 civilians inside the Indian controlled area in -- in the last couple of weeks. And during those time periods in those wars, some of them lasted up to 14 months in length. We saw thousands of people killed and millions of dollars of damage.

The second reason is because if you look at the historical record again, usually when they make statements like this, both countries, they're not empty threats. They back them up.

And finally, as we're all aware, we're dealing with two nations that are nuclear powered nations. They have a wide variety of methods from which they can deliver nuclear weapons and any time you're talking about attacking another country that has those capabilities, apparently, it's true.

BURNETT: So, so, is that your -- your biggest fear? I mean, as you've dealt with both countries and both militaries, what is your biggest worry right now?

MOORE: Without a doubt, the biggest concern is that we see something that continues to escalate this conventional conflict and turns it, God forbid, in some type of nuclear exchange.

BURNETT: All right. Well, General Moore, I appreciate your time, and thank you very much. Sombering report. And next hour, our David Culver here with me at the Vatican, catching up with a group of American nuns here in Rome. And you're going to want to hear what they told him about what they are witnessing right now, because it is something that they have never seen before.

And then one of the oldest traditions related to the conclave, were going to introduce you to the family, the family that provides the pope with his cherished ring.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:48:16]

BURNETT: All right, breaking news. These are live pictures of Vatican City where we are tonight. The 133 cardinal electors are locked inside in Vatican City, in Casa Santa Marta resting hopefully at this hour, because in just a few hours, they will rise again for morning mass at 1:45 a.m. Eastern. They will have breakfast and then prepare for their next vote in the Sistine Chapel.

Now. Casa Santa Marta is the kitchen. The kitchen there is run by the daughters of Charity of Saint Vincent de Paul that serves the cardinals all of their meals and all staff, including inside those walls, those nuns included, take an oath of secrecy.

And David Culver is here with me now.

So, David, you spoke with a group of Dominican nuns. You were in a coffee shop, and they're from the U.S. So your -- your cameras captured the moment when you're talking to them. And they told you that they're noticing something that they have never seen before here in Rome?

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. And they're obviously not part of the conclave. So they're not in secrecy, but they are watching this really closely, Erin.

And it's interesting because they've been to Rome several times. They're originally from Nashville, some of them from Corpus Christi, Texas. And they said that when they're on the streets of Rome, one thing that they hadn't seen before is people so incredibly pleasant, but it's beyond that. They said pleasant, and then wanting to engage at a spiritual level.

And they said, obviously, they're dressed in a way that people feel they can approach them. But our conversation touched on that, touched on the division were seeing and a little bit more. So, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SISTER ANNE CATHERINE, NASHVILLE DOMINICANS: We're teachers, so we teach all over the country. Although we're based in Nashville.

CULVER (voice-over): Sister Anne Catherine has been teaching all over the U.S. history, English, and perhaps appropriately, religion.

SISTER ANNE CATHERINE: I've been mostly in high school.

CULVER: Over coffee, they tell me what it means to be here right now.

[19:50:00]

SISTER ANNE CATHERINE: It's historic. It's historic. Yeah, I was thinking, you know, people all over the world are tuned in to this moment right now. Catholics, non-Catholics, and it's something so beautiful to be here, just here.

MOTHER ANNA GRACE, NASHVILLE DOMINICANS: I wish everyone could be here right now. It's just absolutely thrilling, exciting and blessed. People are very happy and open and praying together and united.

CULVER: The sisters telling me that in this world of division, of war, of just bad news, they're seeing something on the streets of Rome that they've never seen before.

SISTER ANNE CATHERINE: There's unity in Christ, and that's, you know, I think. Yeah, were here in Rome where the pope is the symbol of unity, of Christ on Earth, you feel that and you sense that in a real way. More people are talking about their faith.

CULVER: Something deeper.

SISTER ANNE CATHERINE: I think they don't want the me -- they don't want a mediated experience through -- through the phone. They want to be here for the -- in person, live, incarnate experience. People want to play up division, animosity.

But I think the normal person on the street, they want to know their neighbor. They want to feel connected and belonging. And you know, to the human family.

CULVER: And for the next Holy Father, their hope --

SISTER MARY, NASHVILLE DOMINICANS: I think he has to tend both to the sheep within the flock, but also to reach out to those who may have strayed a bit, or who've never been part of or don't know the Catholic faith.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNETT: You know, the palpable feeling here. They said there were 30,000 people in the square. You know, I was here. You were -- I could see you walking around right down there. And. And then they're keeping these periodic clapping fests as they were, either -- I don't know if they were just trying to stay energized or maybe hoping the cardinals might hear them inside the Sistine Chapel, I don't know,

But there was palpable energy, and I don't know, suspense.

CULVER: I think you feel the same sentiment that that those nuns were echoing, too, right? There was something in the atmosphere here that -- that is joyous, that that is cheerful. And at the same time, you're right, there is a suspense and wondering what's going to come next. But I caught up with also these young professionals that came by as we

were setting up to go live, and they were three guys working software. They were here just for work and they said, you know, were lax Catholics. We haven't really been that close to the church.

One of them has two young kids. And he goes, being here, though now in this moment, because I feel like I need to get back into it. He goes, I don't know what it is.

BURNETT: Yeah, something, something truly special about being here. Whatever, whatever your faith may be.

CULVER: Yeah.

BURNETT: All right. David Culver, thank you very much. And, of course, we're going to be here tomorrow for that vote and ours.

And next, the pope's ring. It is one of the most powerful symbols of authority. We saw the cardinal's rings today when they were placing it on the gospels for their oath. Hand after hand with the cardinal ring.

But the pope's ring, something so extraordinary. Next, we're going to introduce you to the man who had the honor of making the pope's ring.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:57:41]

BURNETT: In just hours here in Vatican City, the cardinals will begin the second day of the conclave. Tens of thousands will gather around here once the cardinals make their choice, the next pope will enter this room where he will change into his white papal robe for the first time. And then he will choose a ring holding incredible significance dating back centuries.

And Ben Wedeman is OUTFRONT with the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For generations, the Franchi family has crafted fine jewelry and ornaments. Twenty years ago, the phone rang. It was an order for a ring for the next pope.

Initially, I thought it was a joke, recalls goldsmith and art historian Claudio Franchi.

It was not just any ring, but rather what is known as the ring of the fisherman, commemorating St. Peter, the first pope.

With each pontiff, a new ring is made. Traditionally used as a seal for the wax on papal correspondence. And when the pope dies, is depicted in the movie "Conclave", the ring is removed and defaced.

The reason why the fisherman's ring was destroyed after the death of each pope was quite profane. It was simply intended to stop anyone from stealing that ring, and then using it to forge and then seal documents.

Each pope's ring reflects their distinct style. Pope Francis's ring was simple, gold-plated silver, and he only wore it on special occasions.

Pope Benedict's ring, designed by the Franchis, was gold.

But it's not the medal that matters, insists Claudio. No matter how valuable the materials, he says, they're nothing compared to the great, enormous, incomparable history of this object.

The trend in recent years has been away from the ornate, says Professor Roberto Regoli.

ROBERTO REGOLI, PROFESSOR, PONTIFICAL GREGORIAN UNIVERSITY: Now, it's the second part of the 20th century and the first part of the 21st century. We have more simple rings because the style of the church and of the papacy is changed.

WEDEMAN: With the cardinals gathered in Rome for the conclave to choose, the next pope, has Claudio received another call?

His answer: I know what you know.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNETT: And I'll be back here tomorrow at 4:00 a.m., throughout the day and here OUTFRONT as we cover this historic conclave.

Thanks for joining us.

"AC360" with Anderson begins now.