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Erin Burnett Outfront

One Court Reinstates Trump Tariffs As Another Rules Against Them; Putin War Hero Killed In Mysterious Explosion Deep Inside Russia; On Commencement Day, Harvard Gets A Court Win Against Trump. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired May 29, 2025 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:32]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:

Breaking news, a $300 million hit. That is what one iconic American brand is warning. Trump's tariffs will cost it. The Trump's trade war now hanging by a thread as the courts weigh in this hour.

Plus, breaking news, our KFILE uncovering a number of derogatory comments by the Kennedy Center's new vice president of development. So KFILE started asking questions, and suddenly, a man was fired.

And a massive explosion. A Russian war hero killed on a public street deep inside Russia. How will Putin respond?

Let's go OUTFRONT.

And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.

OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, $300 million. That's what an iconic American brand Gap says it stands to lose because of Trump's tariffs. The company's stock plunging 15 percent in afterhours trading. I mean, look at that line, 15 percent drop.

And then moments later, Trump's treasury secretary just came out with a stunning admission. This is just moments ago, Treasury Secretary Bessent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: I would say that they are a bit stalled. I believe that we will be having more talks with them in the next few weeks, and I believe we may at some point have a call between the president and party chair, Xi.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: I just want to be clear, that is a stunning admission to say that trade talks with a single most important country on the planet in trade talks, he would say, I would say they are a bit stalled. That is massive. Anytime there is news regarding China trade talks, it moves the markets by a lot. So, while the world waits to see what happens here with this latest

admission, the reality is that President Trump's trade war is now hanging by a thread after a flurry of court activity.

As we speak, the White House is doing a victory lap after a federal appeals court reinstated Trump's sweeping tariffs that a lower court had paused just 24 hours ago. I want to be clear, though, that the ruling from the appeals court was not based on the merit of Trump's tariffs.

It wasn't saying, oh, okay. You're right. It was done just out of process just to allow all of this to work its way through the courts.

And it only came after a federal judge in a separate case ordered a temporary halt to many of Trump's tariffs. Now, that judge ruling in favor of two Illinois toy companies that claim they're getting crushed by Trump's tariffs.

And these cases are just the beginning. The just security legal analysis led, of course, by Ryan Goodman has done the count, looked at this and all of these different courts, saying that there are at least six cases involving Trump tariffs making their way through the court system as we speak. So, the courts are going to be weighing in regularly from here on out, and that is going to affect the daily whiplash.

And it's not just Trump's trade war that is in jeopardy, because this is bigger than that, right? These tariffs are bigger than that. Trump sold the trade war as the center of his entire agenda.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's our declaration of economic independence. We are finally putting America first. This will be indeed the golden age of America.

We're going to have a country that you can be proud of.

We've gone from a laughingstock six months ago, to the hottest country anywhere in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Well, now Trump's entire economic agenda is in flux and companies are struggling. So, what are Republicans in Congress doing? What are they doing about it? Tariffs could come to them. What are they going to do?

Well, today, they were bending over backwards to show their loyalty, their fealty to Trump. One House Republican today introduced legislation to rename the Washington, D.C. Metro the Trump Train. That is not an "Onion" headline. Literally, they want to name it the Trump train. They're introducing legislation in the United States Congress to do that. And they add to that legislation that has been introduced by Republicans to rename Dulles Airport after Trump, to carve his face on Mount Rushmore, and to create a new $250 bill with you can guess whose face on it.

And one more thing to make his birthday, which falls on Flag Day, a new federal holiday, saying that he couldn't share Presidents Day with everyone else.

Kristen Holmes is OUTFRONT live outside the White House.

And, you know, Kristen, when it comes to these -- what's going on with the trade war, we've got the stunning admission from Scott Bessent moments ago that trade talks with China have stalled, as the administration is saying that no matter what the courts do, they have other ways to push ahead with their tariffs if they lose the lawsuit, other ways.

[19:05:01]

Now, you have been reporting on this all day on what they're going to do. What are you learning?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Erin, I wish I could tell you the definitive answer, but everyone I have asked has said that yes, we have options, but they have not divulged what exactly those options would be to circumvent the courts. For example, Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt was asked about this. She didn't give any details, but she said not only were they willing to, but they were prepared to go to the Supreme Court and ask for emergency interference.

We heard from Kevin Hassett, who is the national economic council director. He said there were 3 to 4 other options that they were looking into. But when pressed on those options, he said that they were optimistic that they weren't going to need to use them, that they were going to win on appeal.

Peter Navarro also saying, of course, we are looking into other ways around all of this. When asked, so you have a plan B, he said, we have a plan B, but its really a plan A, inferring that actually this was all about them believing they were going to win on appeal.

Now, when it comes down to it, I do believe that they are going to come up with other options only because of what you said. This is at the heart of Donald Trump's agenda. He has sold so much, put so much into these trade wars, into these tariffs, into what this means for the economy, that his administration is going to have to come up with a legal workaround to try and get this through. Otherwise, that would be a huge blow to his entire agenda.

So how they're going to do that? We're going to continue pressing, trying to come up with these answers. But right now, they feel, as you said, that they are winning. They had this appeals court ruling that restored the fact that he could levy these tariffs. And so, they are in a good place. But this is only temporary, Erin.

BURNETT: All right, Kristen, thank you very much.

And temporary and all these other court cases wending their way through the courts.

Let's go now to David Levi. He is one of the business owners who filed that tariff lawsuit against Trump that said all of this off.

So truly, David, you know, you're the one at the heart of this, the butterfly's wing, right, that fluttered. And now, here we are.

I know you've got a business that makes educational musical toys. You're in Charlottesville, Virginia, where you have built your small business. And I know that many of your components are imported from China as well as other countries. Your attorney, Reilly Stephens, is here as well.

So I really appreciate you having both of you.

David, let me start with you, though, because the trade court ruled in your favor, right? I talk about you as the butterfly's wing. It started. You get the ruling in your favor, then today, an appeals court temporarily says, hold on. We're going to let Trump's tariffs go ahead as this all works its way through the courts.

So, does that concern you?

DAVID LEVI, BUSINESS OWNER SUING TRUMP OVER TARIFFS: Well, that's part of the checks and balances system. It means that when there is a final decision, it's going to be a decision that sticks, and that I can actually plan my business forward with these last two months, they felt much longer than two months. We've seen the tariffs go up, down, sideways.

I've been petrified. I haven't been able to plan my business. If the tariffs get too high, I have to stop producing my little science kits in America. Think about getting like Europe to build my kits and maybe sell my products to Europeans. So, yeah, it's definitely a lot of emotions. I'm definitely in the short term, exhausted.

But given the motion and given all these positive comments I've received in the last few hours, I'm definitely long term optimistic about being able to make my science kits in America.

BURNETT: So which -- I mean, you know, I think what you just said there, just to emphasize, you're saying that an outcome here, a possible outcome is that you would make your kits in Europe and sell them in Europe. So, an American small business would move to Europe and sell to Europeans that that is a loss. And I think anybody would agree that's a loss.

The administration, though, David says they've got workarounds, you know, that that hey, even if you win, that they will find a way to put these tariffs on anyway, the White House National Economic Council Director Kevin Hassett spoke about it today.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KEVIN HASSETT, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL DIRECTOR: There are 3 or 4 other ways to do it. There are different approaches that would take a couple of months to put these in place. And using procedures that have been approved in the past.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: So, you know, what does that mean? I mean, I know you've got 60 percent of your components coming from China. And treasury secretary says talks with China are stalled. But they said they've got these 3 or 4 other ways to do this? What does that even mean to you?

LEVI: That means I get to have a lot of emotions, continuously. I'm just going to do the best I can to make as many kits as I can. This year, I was planning on making 20,000 little synthesizers and theremin kits this year. Because of tariffs, I haven't been able to order parts, so I'm definitely going to have shortages. I'm going to try to order more parts soon, but yeah, I'm definitely going to have shortages.

I definitely need to think about how to just make sure I have enough cash in my business to survive however long this instability is, so that I have the ability to restart my business when things are better.

[19:10:14]

But I am feeling optimistic with this last motion, even though -- yeah.

BURNETT: So, Reilly, can I ask you when you listen to David talk about trying to trying to tread water to stay in business, right? As all this works its way through the courts, and now you've got the ruling in your favor, you've got the temporary stay. How long does it take for this to get, I suppose, to the Supreme Court and get a decision?

REILLY STEPHENS, ATTORNEY FOR BUSINESS OWNER SUING TRUMP OVER TARIFFS: So it remains to be seen the but the, as you say, the temporary stay and the government has given us until the fifth to respond and the government then the court has given us till the fifth to respond, and then the government until the 9th of June. So that is the schedule that the Court of Appeals set for this.

In the meantime, the government could go to the Supreme Court and ask them for a stay as well. You know, they can try a lot of different things. Youd have to ask them.

But that is, you know, we're looking at still in the next few weeks here, we're hoping to have more progress. But it's just as you say, that was just a temporary thing where the court. Courts want to hold pause on something, want to, you know, take time to actually read the material. And so, they just got this last night. So, it's understandable that they want a moment to review it.

BURNETT: All right. Well, David and Reilly, thank you so very much. I appreciate it. And now people David can put a face to the court case that launched all of this and appreciate both of you so very much. Let's go to former Trump White House attorney, Ty Cobb.

So, Ty, obviously, Trump's going to go to the Supreme Court on this. So, I guess is this something we would find out then by the end of the June session for the Supreme? I mean, I would assume this goes that fast. I don't know, you tell me whether I'm crazy, and does he win or lose it?

TY COBB, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE ATTORNEY: Well, it would be up to the court, of course, how quickly they move. But yes, I would think this might -- you know, I think this might be resolved by June. You know, there's an issue, of course, as to whether the Supreme Court would, would take it you know, depending on what either the federal circuit or the D.C. Court of Appeals and the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals will do with Judge Contreras's opinion of today.

You know, these are not really controversially reasoned decisions. You know, the court of international trade opinion was three judges, including a Trump appointee, Tim Rief, who, you know, very serious judge, highly regarded, one of the most experienced trade lawyers of our time before he went on the court. So, and Judge Contreras is, while an Obama appointee, you know, has a history of calling balls and strikes.

He's made some rulings that irritated Republicans. He's made some rulings that irritated Democrats, but he's always been sort of right down the middle. Neither of them found this a very difficult legal issue. You know, under any analysis, the arguments put forth by the government were usually rejected.

BURNETT: Well, you know, they obviously were using wartime powers, national security and tariffs, you know, in much of America.

COBB: But he's making -- I mean, I think both -- I think both courts concluded that he's making that up. I mean, and that -- and that, you know, that's what he did in the Alien Enemies Act. You know, I mean, were at war with, you know, the -- a gang. But the statute requires a country and an invasion.

So, I think these are powers that he's, you know, claimed for himself. He views himself as all powerful. The 2025 people you know are trying to maximize the powers of the presidency. But just because he says it doesn't make it so.

BURNETT: So when Karoline Leavitt, the press secretary today, says the court should have no role here, and then she said America cannot function if Trump or any other president has their diplomatic or trade negotiations railroaded by activist judges, right? So, this is -- they're going back to the any judge that would rule against them is activist. Youve already pointed out not just the credibility of these judges, but one of them was appointed by Trump himself.

What do you say, though, to that? To her?

COBB: I don't think creepy Karoline, when she speaks, I don't think anybody in America really takes her seriously on a matter of substance. I mean, she's not, you know, learned by any imagination. And I think her comments are clearly so defensive and so ill-informed that people may largely turn her out.

She's wrong. And keep in mind, these courts are not trying to participate in international trade matters. All they're doing is ruling on whether a statute authorizes actions by a president. Did Congress delegate its authority to the president under this statute ? And the statute in question has never, in history, been used in connection with tariffs.

So, I think the likelihood is that this statute will be upheld and enforced in a way that precludes the president from trying to pretend that he has these all-encompassing powers.

[19:15:02]

BURNETT: So, the headline of the Drudge Report today trolled Trump. I don't know if you saw this, Ty, but it posted an A.I. generated image of him in a taco suit and a hat with a headline taco, which of course is the acronym that stands for Trump always chickens out, which is, you know, gotten some pickup on Wall Street, basically, of how they've been trading the tariffs. He says one thing, but we know he'll back down. And that's why the markets have basically, you know, ignored the trade war.

This came though after he was asked about the taco trade. And it was by a reporter from CNBC. And it rattled him clearly. Let me just play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Wall Street analysts have coined a new term called the TACO trade. They're saying Trump always chickens out on your tariff threats. And that's why markets are higher this week. What's your response to that?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I kick out?

REPORTER: Chicken out.

TRUMP: Oh, isn't that nice? Chicken out, I've never heard that.

We had a dead country. We had a country. People didn't think it was going to survive. And you ask a nasty question like that, it's called negotiation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: So, you know how important the tariffs are to him. And you know him well. And you see his response there.

How much of all of this bothering him right now?

COBB: Well, I think it bothers him very much. I mean, what you heard there was, you know, the rant of, you know, Trump or the wounded narcissist. You know, he doesn't take criticism well. And he responds typically with, you know, these riffs like that and or what he went on with, with at West Point about trophy wives and et cetera, et cetera.

He just -- you know, when he -- when he -- you know, gets deeply into his own fears and insecurity, he's capable of saying anything. This is very troubling to him. It's an affront to him that, that judges hold him up. You know, to account.

It's an affront to him that when the facts are not with him, that he's confronted with them. And, you know, he's not capable of saying, I made a mistake. He's not capable of saying, you know, I'm, you know, let me see if I can clear this up. It's all -- it's all very, very personal.

BURNETT: All right. Ty, thank you very much. Ty cobb. As I said, former White House attorney. Thank you.

COBB: Nice to be with you, Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Good to see you as always.

And next, we're getting a shocking video of a mysterious explosion. Now, this explosion came deep inside Russia. The blast killing a soldier that Putin had publicly praised, a commander. So, what will he do now?

Plus, breaking news, the Kennedy Center's new VP of development fired after our KFILE started digging into controversial statements he made like this one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FLOYD BROWN, KENNEDY CENTER'S NEW VP OF DEVELOPMENT: They literally worked for the member 24/7 and then went out to Adams Morgan and had their gay sex.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: And Michigan's governor speaking out after Trump says he'll look into pardoning the men convicted in the kidnapping case targeting her. Prosecutors say they also plotted to kill her. The attorney general who prosecuted the men is OUTFRONT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:22:19]

BURNETT: Breaking news, Putin's war hero killed a mysterious explosion deep inside Russia on a public sidewalk, killing a soldier that Vladimir Putin had personally commended. Officials say the blast came from a homemade explosive device and could be the result of what they call a terrorist attack.

And it all comes as Putin has launched a new offensive, a new offensive, not a peace deal, a new offensive in the war against Ukraine, dramatically intensifying missile and drone strikes on Ukrainian cities.

Matthew Chance is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Excel for Russia on the battlefield in Ukraine, the Kremlin might call you a hero, but it could also mark you out as a target for assassination by the other side.

These are the final moments of the latest Russian war hero killed in a mysterious explosion. Thirty-four-year-old Zaur Gurtsiev had only recently been made deputy mayor of Stavropol in southern Russia, but the former soldier distinguished himself here in Mariupol, where he led a Russian airborne unit in one of the most brutal sieges of the Ukraine war.

Kremlin even made a promotional video about him called "Time of Heroes", highlighting his exploits and family. A model veteran to be given priority in Putin's new Russia being forged in the Ukraine war.

ZAUR GURTSIEV, PUTIN WAR HERO (through translator): I could bring my experience to public administration as a person who has gone from a cadet to a commander, from a person to whom ready made decisions are communicated, to a person who makes those very decisions.

CHANCE: But becoming a face of Russia's war potentially paints a target on your back. Russia enduring a spate of assassinations of pro- kremlin bloggers, propagandists and military figures, all reminders that in the brutal calculus of what Russia calls its special military operation, there are only rewards at the price of considerable risk.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE (on camera): Well, tonight, Erin, Russian investigators say they are still trying to determine who carried out the killing and the explosion. And, of course, there's been no claim of responsibility so far. But Ukraine's intelligence services have become notoriously adept at coming up with inventive ways, at striking at their targets. And there's every chance that this is yet another example -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right, Matthew Chance, thank you very much. It's incredible.

OUTFRONT now, Fareed Zakaria, host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS", of course.

[19:25:03]

I mean, Fareed, the death of this, you know, commander, it's pretty incredible to think what happened. You know, he's in that promotional video, he's put forth as the face, obviously crucial in Mariupol. And now here he is, seems assassinated, one of several Russians killed in explosions deep inside Russia in recent months.

So how does a brazen killing like this right now influence Putin?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": Well, Putin is at this point all in. He has -- he has clearly decided that he is going to wage this war very aggressively. He is not listening to his great friend Donald Trump.

Trump thought that he was going to be able to persuade Putin. They had a two-hour phone call. None of it mattered. Putin is in this because he has staked his reputation, his career. I would say even his position as president of Russia on the idea that he is going to successfully prosecute this war.

This is a kind of imperial. This is his imperial dream. He has turned Russia into essentially a war economy, so he can't really back down. And I don't think things like this are going to change that.

What it does show you, Erin, is how inventive the Ukrainians are being, as you were pointing out, how persistent they are. And by the way, for those who think the Ukrainians should stop fighting and accept some, you know, some bad peace deal, this is what will happen if the Ukrainians are forced to accept some kind of deal. They will keep fighting. They will launch an insurgency against Russia, and they will have the characteristics of the drone strike we just saw.

BURNETT: So, you know, when you mention what's at stake for Putin, Christo Grozev and I know you know him, the investigative journalist, he's on the wanted list in Russia. And he said that Putin cannot accept a peace deal that, you know, regardless of what his motivations may be, if he were to do that, that there would be that he'd expected there would be a coup, you know, that would be it for Putin's leadership in Russia.

Do you agree?

ZAKARIA: Well, look, it depends on what kind of deal. If it's a humiliating deal for Russia, then I think Putin is in trouble. But I think there's also a problem.

He is geared the entire economy onto this kind of autarchic war footing. He doesn't know, you know, he's riding a tiger now. He doesn't quite know how to get off.

I think at the end of the day, most Russians would be so relieved to have an end to this that I'm not so sure that you'd have a -- you'd have a coup. But clearly, he needs a deal where he can say he won. You know, that is very important to him. And that -- and right now, I don't think the Ukrainians are ready to give him that deal.

BURNETT: So the other day, I spoke to the president of Finland, obviously borders Russia, and they joined NATO after Putin invaded Ukraine.

So, I asked him in that context, Fareed to respond specifically to the comment from President Trump excusing Putin's war, the invasion, the entire premise of it. Let me play what Trump said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I believe that's the reason the war started, because Biden went out and said that they could join NATO, and he shouldn't have said that. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: You know, we've all heard that. It mimics the propaganda we've heard out of Putin himself. Here's what President Stubb said in response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDER STUBB, PRESIDENT OF FINLAND: I think, actually, Putin made one of the biggest strategic and tactical mistakes in recent military history. He was trying to make Ukraine Russian while it became European. He tried to split the European Union. I've never seen it more united. He tried to split the transatlantic partnership and especially NATO, and he ended up with neutral Sweden and Finland joining NATO.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Fareed, do you see any evidence that Trump may be sees all of this differently, as he has become at least more publicly critical of Putin?

ZAKARIA: No, I think that he's been frustrated by the fact that, you know, he essentially made every concession to Putin that Putin seemed to have asked for.

Remember, the Russians asked for three things. They wanted to be able to hold on to all of Ukraine they had conquered, which is about 20 percent of the country, Trump said. Fine.

They said Ukraine can't be a member of NATO. Trump said yes, Ukraine will not be a member of NATO.

They said no American troops in Ukraine are guaranteeing its security. He said fine. No American troops in Ukraine.

So Trump gave Putin everything and Putin is still not giving Trump anything. It is. It continues to be -- what's striking about it? This is the most one-sided romance in diplomatic history.

Trump keeps praising Putin, making concessions to him, talking about him as his great friend. And there you have Putin on the other side, stone cold sober, calculating his interests, never giving an inch. And, you know, but it doesn't seem to change the way Trump looks at it.

[19:30:03]

Look, don't believe me. Listen to his own former national security advisor, General McMaster, who said in his memoirs after working for Donald Trump every day for a year as his national security adviser, the biggest puzzle that confronted confounded me was what was the hold that Vladimir Putin had on Donald Trump? So, no, I doubt that Trump has really changed.

BURNETT: It's really fascinating. And for him to have that question, that crucial, priceless question.

Thank you so much, Fareed.

And next, the breaking news. A far-right activist fired from his top job at the Kennedy Center. Why was he fired? He was fired because of revelations from a k file investigation, which you will see in a moment, which finds that this man had a history of homophobic comments and pushing conspiracy theories.

Plus, RFK Jr.'s first ever Make America Health Again report is out, and it cites references to medical studies. The problem is, some of those studies do not exist. Wait until you hear how the White House is spinning this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:35:45]

BURNETT: Breaking news, fired. The Kennedy Center terminating a man just named four weeks ago to be vice president of development after CNN's KFILE uncovered that he had a history of anti-gay comments and pushed conspiracy theories about former President Barack Obama.

His name is Floyd Brown. He's a far-right political consultant and activist. His role was responsible for helping raise tens of millions of dollars to fund the Kennedy Center's operations, and he was brought in after President Trump, as you may remember, took over the Kennedy Center.

But then Brown was fired, and he was fired just hours after Andrew Kaczynski of KFILE asked the Kennedy Center about past comments like this one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What most people don't understand is that many of the Republican members have homosexual staff, and the reason that they do is because the homosexuals, usually unlike me, I had two kids at home, I had a wife at home. I had responsibilities at home, and I needed to spend time with my children.

And they don't. They didn't. They literally worked for the member 24/7 and then went out to Adams Morgan and had their gay sex, and then came back to work the next day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: KFILE's Andrew Kaczynski is OUTFRONT.

So, Andrew, let's just start with what led to Brown's firing, right? He was put into this after Trump takes over. He's in this job and presumably would have remained in this job.

But hours after you asked Kennedy Center about his past comments, he is fired. So, tell us more about what he said. ANDREW KACZYNSKI, CNN KFILE SENIOR EDITOR: Well, look, yes, he is a

longtime political consultant. He's maybe best known for being one of the producers of that infamous Willie Horton ad. And during the 1988 presidential race. And he has chosen about a month ago for this role.

Now, what we found in our reporting was that he has a long history of anti-gay comments. That includes calling homosexuality a punishment upon America. He condemned the fact that gay sex was legal in one comment that we found from a that he wrote in a blog post with his wife, or it was a news -- newspaper article. He's called same sex marriage a hoax. He's called a godless.

During the 2008 presidential campaign, he actually attacked Barack Obama for saying that homosexuality was a choice, and for saying that being gay was just as moral as being straight. You can see this is from one of his websites.

And we found a long history of these comments. Listen to some of them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Homosexuality is a punishment that comes upon a nation that has rejected God. And that's why I believe it is so powerful in this nation right now. And we have to -- we have to turn and we have to really repent of all sexual sin if we want to save America. They're debasing themselves and their humanity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KACZYNSKI: So, Erin, part of why this job is so important is the VP of development is in charge with helping raise those hundreds of millions of dollars, or tens of millions of dollars that support the Kennedy Center's mission and operations.

And what we heard from sources was there was concern among staff, among donors that brown was going to move from bringing in the money they traditionally do from these people who are repeat donors to the center to moving to more political donors in what's traditionally seen as a nonpartisan institution.

BURNETT: Right. And, of course, there's been a lot of challenges to the Kennedy Center now in terms of performers and who would come over these very issues, these very issues.

So, Brown did not just dabble in fringe conspiracy theories. He actually has websites, as you have found, that pushed, for example, the false claim that Barack Obama was secretly Muslim. They posed photoshopped images of him in Islamic garb. I mean, what else did you find out about that?

KACZYNSKI: Yeah, Erin, this was far from a one-off comment. He actually built whole platforms where he promoted these false claims. One of the websites that he launched in 2008 and 2009 was called one was called exposeobama.com. The other was called impeachobamacampaign.com.

[19:40:01]

They regularly pushed the theories that Obama was a Muslim, that his birth documents were fake. His website literally flat-out shared articles that said his birth certificate was a forgery.

He wrote in a 2010 comment that Obama is a Muslim, period. That post appeared -- I want people to look at this under a photoshopped image of Obama wearing a turban that resembled a photo. This resembled a well-known photo of Osama bin Laden, and he even raised money during the 2008 presidential campaign to run multiple ads on television that asked if Obama was a Muslim.

Listen to one of them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AD NARRATOR: The following message is intended for Barack Hussein Obama.

Why not just tell the truth and admit you were a Muslim, too?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: So, obviously, we see that, you know, many layers to that, right? Double, triple, quadruple down.

KACZYNSKI: Right into the call to prayer.

BURNETT: So, that's right.

And now what are -- what is Brown saying and the Kennedy saying about all of this now?

KACZYNSKI: So, we reached out to them yesterday afternoon. We asked about all these comments. The first thing that we got back was a emailed comment from Brown, where he said it was an honor to work at the Kennedy Center. He said, quote, it was not my intention to offend anyone. I have never intended to attack or demean any person in my statements. And he you know, he said that he was a Christian and that's where these views came from.

The next morning or this morning, Brown posted a lengthy note on X previously Twitter, where he said that he'd been fired from the Kennedy Center by Richard Grenell, who's the president. And he said he was, quote, asked to recant his belief in traditional marriage or be fired.

That's the explanation that Brown is giving. He didn't touch on any of the stuff that we asked about, about Obama. And a source confirmed to us today from the Kennedy Center that he is indeed out there.

BURNETT: All right. Well, thank you very much, Andrew Kaczynski of KFILE.

And next, the Michigan governor with a message tonight for the president after he said he'd look into pardons for the men convicted of plotting to kidnap her. What's the attorney general's response to Trump claiming that the men were just drinking and saying stupid things.

Plus, Harvard scoring an important win tonight in its battle against President Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:46:33]

BURNETT: Tonight, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer breaking her silence after President Trump says he's looking at pardons for the men convicted of trying to kidnap her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D), MICHIGAN: No one should hesitate to condemn political violence, whether it is aimed at my good friend Josh Shapiro. The horror that played out at their residence in Pennsylvania. Or it is the man who shot Donald Trump. Or it is the people that threatened me. It's unacceptable. And so, it is my hope that he doesn't go forward with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Prosecutors said the men also plotted to kill the governor in 2020, even surveilling one of her homes, and practiced a detonation of explosives.

But Trump is now downplaying all of this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It looked to me like somewhat of a railroad job, I'll be honest with you. It looked to me like some people said some stupid things. You know, they were drinking and I think they said stupid things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: OUTFRONT now, the Democratic attorney general of Michigan, Dana Nessel, who prosecuted eight suspects in this plot to kidnap Governor Whitmer.

Attorney General, I really appreciate your time and having you on, because, you know, Trump is saying this is just stupid things that the people who plotted to kidnap your governor were just drinking, and they were just saying stupid things. What do you say to that?

DANA NESSEL (D), MICHIGAN ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, first of all, let's be clear. This is not just a kidnapping plot. They weren't going to kidnap her and then play, you know, a game of euchre with her. They were going to murder her. This was an assassination plot.

But their convictions were not based on words. They were based on actions. And actually, the prosecutors in these cases presented more than 14 concrete, specific actions, including setting up kill houses that they trained in, working with explosive devices and live ammunition, surveilling her house. And also the local police department.

I mean, and it wasn't just the governor that they wanted to kill. They also wanted to kill members of law enforcement. They also wanted to kill members of that community in Antrim county, a very red area where there are a lot of Trump supporters.

So, what the president is saying is its flat out wrong, and it's also outrageous.

BURNETT: So, what would happen if he does this, pardons and they're just out and about? What happens then?

NESSEL: Well, I think it'd be an incredible threat to public safety. And it'd be an absolute affront to the criminal justice system. But I think what the president should know is this they didn't just want to murder Governor Whitmer. You know who else they talked about? Killing President Trump.

They hated him. They mocked him relentlessly. They talked about hanging him. They made jokes about him with Stormy Daniels.

But you know who they loved? They loved al Qaeda. They loved ISIS. They loved Black Lives Matter. They loved everything that the president allegedly opposes.

So, I don't know how much Ed Martin has done in terms of his research on this. But you know, if the president pardons these individuals, it's only done for shock value and nothing more than that.

BURNETT: So, I want to ask you something, you know, as you -- as you sit in this political world that we are all living in now, which is unsettling and, and, and a fearful moment for people. You know, Governor Whitmer spoke today, and she praised the deal that she scored with Trump to bring a fighter jet mission to Michigan.

[19:50:06]

She made a joke about her relationship with the president. And I'll just play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITMER: We didn't put a picture of me and my new bestie up there, did we?

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: And that was, you know, she held up the binder, you know, joking about the moment when she was using a binder to sort of hide her face when Trump unexpectedly brought her cameras at the White House. But, you know, she appeared with him when he was at -- when he came to

Michigan. I'm curious, attorney general. I mean, you know, she's a -- is that the right way to do it? You know, there are some who would say as a Democratic governor and seen as she is as possibly a front for the Democratic nomination, that this is the last thing that she should be doing, that there should be no good that she can find in Trump. But obviously, she sees it differently.

Do you support how she is handling Trump?

NESSEL: Honestly, I've made it very clear that I don't support normalizing the actions of this lawless president who, you know, doesn't believe he needs to follow the Constitution. And he's made that perfectly clear.

President Trump is not a good faith actor. And whether its fighter jets for Selfridge, you know, in the -- in the state of Michigan or whether it's a new battery plant or whether it's the promise to not pardon the people who plotted to kidnap and assassinate you, you can't count on the president to keep his word. And if Governor Whitmer thinks that his promise alone will be enough, then unfortunately, I got a bridge to sell her.

And, you know, this is this is dangerous. The thought of pardoning people under these circumstances. These are domestic terrorists. A lot of good members of law enforcement put their lives on the line in order to investigate these individuals and prosecute them, and pardoning them is no joke.

BURNETT: Attorney General, so much appreciate your time. And thank you.

NESSEL: Thanks for having me.

BURNETT: And next, an incredible show of support for Harvard's president, as the university scored a big win in its battle with Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:56:38]

BURNETT: New tonight, Harvard scoring another win in its battle against President Trump. A federal judge indefinitely blocking the Trump administration from making any changes to Harvard student visa program in a hearing today. And Danny Freeman is OUTFRONT from the campus on a commencement day filled with emotion and anxiety.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An emphatic show of support at Harvard University today for the school's president at graduation.

(CHEERING) FREEMAN: As the historic Ivy League university continues to battle with the Trump administration over federal funding, antisemitism, and now enrolling international students.

ALAN GARBER, PRESIDENT, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Members of the class of 2025, from down the street, across the country and around the world.

(CHEERING)

GARBER: Around the world, just as it should be.

(CHEERING)

FREEMAN: Despite a federal judge halting the effort to ban Harvard from enrolling international students, the administration is now threatening to aggressively revoke visas for Chinese students across the country. While some Chinese students on campus were hesitant to speak to CNN today, a master student from China made a plea for empathy during the commencement ceremony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I met my 77 classmates from 32 different countries --

(CHEERING)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- the countries I knew only as colorful shapes on a map turned into real people with laughter, dreams.

FREEMAN: Though the tumultuous school year is now finally over, fears about the future linger at Harvard.

For international students --

LEO GERDEN, HARVARD GRADUATING SENIOR FROM SWEDEN: It's all of these crazy things that people are thinking about in this moment. Can I transfer to another institution? Is it worth doing it in the U.S.? Because what if Trump goes after that university next?

FREEMAN: And fears linger for researchers whose federal funding is still frozen or canceled.

PROF. MARC WEISSKOPF, HARVARD T.H. CHAN SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: How to protect your brain as you're aging and stay -- keep your quality of life so you're not heading into dementia, or not getting cancer, or not getting cardiovascular disease. Those advances take time to develop. And so, we are putting that off if not stopping them.

PROF. WALTER WILLETT, HARVARD T.H. CHAN SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: If we pull the rug out from under our research, we're going to miss a huge opportunity that no amount of money can buy.

FREEMAN: But today, Harvard's graduating class set the stage for tomorrow's fight.

THOR REIMANN, 2025 SENIOR ENGLISH ORATOR: Now, look, our university is certainly imperfect, but I am proud to stand today alongside our graduating class, our faculty, and our president with these shared conviction that this ongoing project of veritas is one worth defending.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FREEMAN (on camera): Erin, one other thing that's really struck me being on campus this week is perhaps the unlikely unity that has really grown here at Harvard, out of this battle with the Trump administration. Remember, this is a university that has been very divided in recent years. The former president had to resign last year. There have been accusations of antisemitism. A lot of protest activity.

And yet, this particular issue, we've seen administrators, faculty and students really locked arm in arm defending Harvard -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Danny Freeman, thank you so much. Obviously, an emotional moment for those graduates today.

Well, thanks so much to all of you for joining us. We appreciate it.

"AC360" with Anderson Cooper begins right now.