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Erin Burnett Outfront
Trump Ramps Up Trade War, Doubles Tariffs On Steel To 50 Percent; CDC Contradicts Health Chief RFK Jr. On COVID Vaccine; Impersonating Top Trump Aide. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired May 30, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:26]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
The breaking news, Trump doubles the steel tariff, seemingly on a whim, boosting the tariffs to 50 percent as he ramps up his trade war on a Friday night.
Plus, breaking news, the CDC issuing guidance that directly contradicts its boss, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Is it an act of defiance?
And the FBI investigating an elaborate plot to impersonate Trump's chief of staff, even on phone calls? A leading A.I. expert will show you just how easy this is to pull off. Wait until you hear it.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
And OUTFRONT tonight, we begin with breaking news. A major and unexpected development in Trump's trade war. The president seemingly on the fly, doubling the tariffs on imported steel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I said to the group, would you rather have a 40 percent increase? Because I was thinking about 40 when I came. I said, would you rather have a 40 percent or a 50 percent? They said, we'll take 50. I said, I had -- I had a feeling you were going to say that. So, congratulations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Now, obviously no laughing matter. I mean, about a quarter of all steel used in the United States is imported from cars to construction. So now another 50 percent added to those prices.
This move likely to raise prices on a key ingredient for American construction and manufacturing, coming as the CEO of the largest bank in America, Jamie Dimon, is saying that perhaps the wrong enemy is being targeted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JAMIE DIMON, JPMORGAN CEO: We have problems and we've got to deal with them. And then the biggest one underlying both, that is the enemy within. I'm not as worried about China. China is an -- is an -- is a potential adversary. They're doing a lot of things well. They have a lot of problems.
But I really worry about is us. Can we get our own act together?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: The enemy within, saying it directly. Obviously, not being subtle at all. A dig at Washington, including Trump, who can't seem to get his acts together. Any of their acts together when it comes to the trade war out of Washington, which is pushing the U.S. closer to a recession.
And today, so we didn't just have that escalating in steel tariffs, the doubling that we saw just moments ago, Trump had already, as the day was gone on, escalated his war with China, saying, and I quote him, China, perhaps not surprisingly to some, has totally violated its agreement with us.
Well, how, you may ask?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: You said that they violated the agreement with the U.S.
TRUMP: Well, they did. They were -- they violated a big part of the agreement we made. You know, if you read that whole statement, I was very nice to them. I helped them because they were in trouble with the stoppage of a massive amount of business. But I'm sure that I'll speak to President Xi and hopefully, we'll work that out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, tonight, China is responding. The spokesperson for the Chinese embassy, in fact, has spoken to OUTFRONT and told us, and I quote, China has repeatedly raised concerns with the U.S. regarding its abuse of export control measures in the semiconductor sector and other related practices. China once again urges the U.S. to immediately correct its erroneous actions, cease discriminatory restrictions against China, and jointly uphold the consensus reached at the high-level talks in Geneva.
So basically, China accuses the U.S. of going against its word. Not really a good place to be in this sort of a tit for tat when you're looking at tariffs going back to 145 percent. And we are getting our first look at some of the effects from Trump's trade war already.
In April, when Trump's so-called liberation day began, Americans did drastically pull back on their spending at the same time. These numbers are just coming in. We found out that imports fell by over 20 percent. It sounds big, and it is. In fact, it is the biggest drop in imports to the United States of America in over 50 years.
And we all know why, right? It's the tariffs.
And just take a look at Costco to understand the details. Costco says that it has rerouted items that it was receiving from countries with high tariffs. It just took those items. And instead of bringing them into the United States, sent them to other markets outside the U.S. instead of actually delivering them to American consumers.
This is why the administration is feeling the pressure when it comes to the trade deals that they keep talking about. Now, earlier, we spoke to one of the Europeans leading the trade delegation talks with the U.S., Bernd Lange, and he says that the E.U. is still hoping for a deal. And then he issued this warning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERND LANGE, CHAIR, EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT'S INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMITTEE: We are also quite clear as a strong economic partner, the European union, to be able to set also tariffs and countermeasures if we didn't find a sufficient agreement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Tariffs and countermeasures. And while the trade deals that Trump promised at this point still don't exist, we still don't have one.
[]19:05:05]
He is in Pittsburgh tonight trying to sell up Japan's takeover of U.S. steel.
Trump is calling this a partnership, but this one is really odd. And by the way, it might not surprise you that the White House is extremely reluctant to talk about this deal. In fact, they're kind of avoiding it all together, which is odd. It's a $14 billion deal. It is a big deal.
But the reason that they don't want to talk about it is probably this Trump was dead set against this deal, dead set against it when he was running for president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't like Japan buying U.S. steel.
Now Japan wants to buy it. I would not let that happen.
U.S. steel is now being sold to Japan. I will stop it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, that is obviously false since now he is talking about the deal. And it is done.
Kristen Holmes is traveling with the president OUTFRONT in West Mifflin, Pennsylvania. And, Kristen, you know, you heard him. I will stop it. That couldn't
be more definitive. And yet now they're talking about this deal, this partnership. And you've been asking the White House for details on this deal all day. What are they telling you?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're trying to get to the specifics of what everyone actually cares about. The bottom line that everyone cares about the steelworkers. This is why we've seen the U.S. steel workers not support this deal, because they're trying to protect the steel workers is how much of U.S. Steel will Nippon own at the end of this deal? And we just cannot get a straight answer on this, because we know that the Japanese company said over and over again, they would not do a deal in which they did not control the company.
However, Donald Trump said this is more of a partnership, that the U.S. was going to keep control of U.S. steel. Of course, he wouldn't sign a deal unless that was part of it. But we got some details of the deal, but not that key question.
So, here's what we do know. We do know that Nippon steel has said that they will put in $2.2 billion into producing steel here at this plant. They're also going to donate another or not donate, but put in another $7 billion into steel mills in other places in the U.S.
But again, no answers here on how much they'll actually own of this company. And will they have full control, which has been the concern of steelworkers all along. Now, of course, the other thing I want to point out was that statement that has really raised a lot of eyebrows, that he said here tonight when he said he was going to be raising the tariffs on steel from 25 to 50 percent, and that was him essentially saying that he decided as he was getting on stage, that that 50 percent number was the better number by just kind of throwing it out to his advisers around him.
And they said, oh, 50 percent. The reason, of course, that this is so striking to so many people is that there are still so many questions about what exactly the end game is here, what is going to happen with these tariffs, what is going on with these trade deals. Obviously, you heard him there talking about China and the negotiations and how they violated them. But we still don't really know exactly why.
So there's a lot of questions. And obviously this is not really settling us with answers when he says he made the decision on the fly.
BURNETT: Not at all.
All right. Thank you very much. Kristen has been traveling with the president today.
And everyone's with me.
You know, Gretchen, so, you know, as she talks about, maybe he said it on the fly and maybe he didn't. But even to have a desire to set the world that you would do that, that you would just come out and say, oh, maybe I would do this. Maybe I would do that. I picked 50 percent. It is a pretty incredible thing to think. I mean, that's not the way
this should be done.
GRETCHEN CARLSON, FORMER FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Well, there has never been one consistent plan, and I think that's what has roiled the markets. That is what has roiled workers. That's what's roiled allies around the world.
But I did a little research to find out that Forbes had documented that just alone with China and the tariffs, Trump has flip-flopped 21 times since this whole thing started. Now, let's keep in mind also that he got the nickname TACO this week, which is Trump always chickens out.
Now could that have played into tonight saying that he's raising these tariffs 50 percent because he's going to look like the ultimate dealmaker that is not chickening out now. And so, he's going to play hardball with this again.
BURNETT: Right. And we know he was when the reporter asked the question Trump always chickens out. Would it come up on wall street as a way to describe that? He kept throwing big numbers out there and then negotiating with himself and pulling them down. He was mad and insulted, was the person personally, and called them nasty and all sorts of things. But do you think that could be what we're seeing right now? That's why we suddenly got a 50 percent steel tariff?
MAX ROSE (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Even more than being mad, he was very embarrassed. And what you see from Donald Trump is he's not considering himself a leader here. He's on a grievance tour. And that's what's happening in this particular instance.
Now, what's critical is how the Democrats respond. One is that this is not a steel tariff. This is a tax on working Americans. And this will catalyze cost increases across the board, most especially in home construction, which is going to be absolutely disastrous.
But just to make it an even broader point here, Trump absolutely lied here. He said Japan's not going to -- we're not going to let them buy this company. Now he's approving it with big, loud cheers.
[19:10:01]
But he also lied and said that he wanted to remove taxes on Social Security. He wanted to remove taxes on tips. One of the largest tax cut for working class Americans in the history of the country, and then proceeded to do exactly the opposite. That's the narrative. That's the story of this administration.
BURNETT: So, so, Peter, when it comes to the steel tariff, right? He does this 50 from -- 25 to 50 percent on the same day that he comes out and accuses China, right? He says they've totally violated their agreement with us. So much for being Mr. Nice guy, all right?
So, obviously, completely changing the tenor. Scott Bessent had said last night the talks were largely stalled. So perhaps it comes from that. But Jamie Dimon said something else on how China is responding to this.
Here's what he said about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE DIMON, JPMORGAN CHASE CEO: They're not scared, folks. There's notion they're going to come back to America. I wouldn't count on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PETER TUCHMAN, TRADER AT THE NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE: But, you know, look, I -- as Jamie Dimon said, I am more fearful of the -- of the enemy within than I am about China, right? I mean, we've not ever seen anything that's impacted us in a big way that's been so bad.
He is a bully, right? And no disrespect to him, but he's a bully and his tactics, if you listen to him, you just said he flip-flopped 21 times on that story. He's always flip-flopping.
BURNETT: And that was just China alone, right?
TUCHMAN: He's -- he's -- I call it -- I call it the drive by. I mean, he just makes things up on a whim and then he'll, you know, he's an opportunist. And so whatever seems to be -- to keep him in the story, you know, I mean, we saw that we had a couple of weeks since I saw you last where he was not talking about tariffs, and it seemed like it had quieted down and we knew it wasn't over. And then he, out of nowhere came up with the E.U., you know, 50 percent there.
And so, he's now once again in getting our attention. And he is and he thrives off of that. And you're seeing how it dominoes, right? It started with the E.U. tariff. And then today and then yesterday with TACO. And so, he sort of -- it fuels his own, you know, shtick. You know, it's a --
CARLSON: I -- not to interrupt you, Peter, but I also believe that Jamie Dimon is the Trump whisperer. I mean, obviously, he's a whisperer on Wall Street. But remember back in April, when Jamie Dimon brought up the R-word "recession"? What did Trump do the very next day? That very next day, he rescinded on the tariffs, right? Because he suddenly just said he was changing his mind on it.
I'm wondering, those comments by Jamie Dimon today are so profound and stark and warning. And he's saying China ain't going to back down, okay? So, you are going up against an even bigger bully than you are.
Those comments to me, I think Trump's going to be thinking about those a lot this weekend.
TUCHMAN: And last time, sorry to interrupt you, but the last time we heard from Jamie Dimon was when we had trouble with the bond market in the last auction, and Jamie shot one across the bow and basically said that if you -- if China was going to back out on stepping in on that bond auction, and we knew that the yield was going to go up to 5 percent, which would have caused a 10 percent pullback in the U.S. market. And he said, if you don't play nice with China now, we are going to have a crash here tomorrow.
And that's when he did the pause and that changed everything. So, I agree with you. He is absolutely the whisperer.
BURNETT: And you know, there was something that happened when Jamie Dimon said the enemy within is the problem. Okay?
Then it came up at the White House today and Elon Musk said, well, I agree with Jamie Dimon. But I think -- I think we can say that Jamie Dimon might be talking about something more broad and much different than Elon Musk is talking about. And yet I find it interesting that that that enemy from within, that is a clear and present problem.
ROSE: Sure, sure. Look, I still stand by the fact that our enemies are abroad. They're not here domestically.
But we do have a gigantic problem here in the United States of America. And I actually center that on Republican leadership, who still remains unwilling to stand up to Donald Trump.
Just today or over the last 24 hours, Senator Joni Ernst, a veteran herself, who swore an oath both in uniform and outside of uniform, said in response to Medicaid cuts. Listen, we're all going to die. This is no big deal. One in 10 veterans are on Medicaid. Millions of veteran families supported by Medicaid.
And still, she is unwilling to stand up to Donald Trump behind the scenes. They all laugh at him. They joke. They can't wait until he's gone. That is a sincere problem and threat to this country.
BURNETT: Well, and when you talk about the enemy within, maybe the enemy within is a lack of leadership, right? The fact that we're looking to a roundtable that Jamie Dimon is doing to have certain things said that we're not hearing coming from Washington.
CARLSON: Well, I think that Jamie Dimon would not be as successful as he is, nor would anyone running a global operation if they were using the strategy that Donald Trump is using, which is not a consistent through line strategy.
If we could hear that, the markets would settle. I mean, I actually think this nickname, TACO, I actually think it's going to stick. And Trump's the master guy about making other people's nicknames stick.
But I think what the markets may be doing now is that they are -- they're muted based on the fact that they're so used to Trump changing and chickening out that that's why we didn't see a severe decline this week, just an opinion.
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BURNETT: You know, when they say China trade talks are stalling, it should have plunged. They didn't, they didn't.
CARLSON: Right. TUCHMAN: You know think about it. We still don't know anything more
than we did on liberation day or days before that. We have not gotten anything etched in stone at all, right? And that's why we are where we are.
I think the market responded a little bit today. I was surprised. Midday, he sort of doubled up on his story about China, and we had a sell off around noon. That was significant. It was 60 or 70 points on the on the S&P 500.
The market sort of almost jaded. They're not responding the way they did a month ago to the ups and downs of his comments, but that could be a dangerous thing in its own, because it's such disrespect. The way he handles -- the way he handles the American people.
He talks about these things that are so meaningful to the general public that to him are no big deal. It was like the remember the doll thing. Oh, so you don't need $30, you'll have $2. I mean, it's sort of a disrespectful way of -- and these are his constituents. So that baffles me.
BURNETT: All right. Well, thank you all very much.
And I want to get to our other breaking story right now, which is the CDC, in a direct contradiction of Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. is recommending the COVID vaccine for kids. The CDC's new language just updated reads, and I quote, where the parent presents with a desire for their child to be vaccinated, children six months and older may receive COVID-19 vaccination, informed by the clinical judgment of a health care provider and personal preference and circumstances.
So, basically saying the way it's always been, parents and doctors agree. And then if that's the case, children should be vaccinated. That is, however, a stark contradiction to what RFK Jr. said himself just three days ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR., HHS SECRETARY: As of today, the COVID vaccine for healthy children and healthy pregnant women has been removed from the CDC recommended immunization schedule.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I want to go directly to Dr. Jonathan Reiner, who was a White House physician under George W. Bush.
So, Dr. Reiner, RFK staff at the CDC, you know, has come out. They posted this, right. They posted this days after he came out and specifically and explicitly said that that vaccine was being removed from the vaccine schedule.
So, you know, how do you see this? Do you see this as the CDC clearly not following orders and rebelling, or what do you see? DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, I see it a couple of
ways. I see this, first of all, as an act of sanity. You know, I think finally, we're starting maybe to see some adults stand up, and, and really and take a stand. And it might very well be an act of an act of defiance. It's important to understand that there's no one in charge at CDC right now.
After the inauguration, Dr. Susan Monarez, who has been HHS and CDC for a while, a microbiologist and immunologist, she was the acting director. But in the middle of March, when the White House pulled former Congressman Dave Weldon's nomination to be CDC director, they nominated then Dr. Monarez to be the new director. But you can't be both nominee and acting director.
So, two weeks ago, at his health committee hearing, Mr. Kennedy was asked by Senator Rochester, who's the acting director, and he mentioned somebody named Matt -- Matt Bozzelli.
And Matt Bozzelli, actually, when you look at the depth chart on the CDC website, he's actually number four. He's the chief of staff. The only problem with that is that not only is he is he not qualified for the job, he's a -- he's a trial lawyer from DOJ's criminal division. He's also apparently ineligible because he's not sort of, you know, he's not sort of the next in line.
Who would be, somebody named Deborah Houry who would be eminently qualified to be acting director. So, it seems like there is no acting director there, which might have been purposeful, because that's what enabled without an acting director, that's what enabled RFK Jr. to make this decision himself last week.
BURNETT: And yet -- and then perhaps, I guess, in the lack of leadership, then you could post something like this on the website, as you say, you know, you say it could be an act of defiance. In this context, talking about the vaccine, another thing happened today that seemed to be an act of being willing to put a target on his back. And that was the CEO of Pfizer, Albert Bourla.
And he stood up today and said it called out RFK's claims that the government covered up mRNA vaccine risks, right? RFK, they had -- they had said, okay, this isn't very well studied, and there are risks that were covered up by the prior administration. And this is not a safe vaccine. It would be a lie to tell people to take it.
Bourla came out and called all of this completely inaccurate, completely inaccurate.
[19:20:02]
And he talked about how well studied this vaccine is, how many hundreds of millions of doses have been given over how many decades, right? He went out there and stuck his neck out, and he is obviously the head of one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the United States.
What do you -- what do you see in that, Dr. Bourla being willing to do that?
REINER: Well, bravo to Dr. Bourla. There are a lot of just frank misstatements or lies that have been said about vaccines in the last -- in the last six months. But here's the truth.
The COVID vaccines were trialed in placebo controlled randomized trials. This is what we've heard recently from the HHS secretary that we're no longer going to approve vaccines that haven't been trialed, and randomized trials, studied in randomized trials. And they have.
They've been studied in adults and they've been studied in children. The safety of these vaccines have been -- have been followed in the -- in the vast database. And importantly, as you've mentioned, they've been given not to millions of people.
These vaccines have been given to billions of people over the last four years, and we have a very good understanding of the safety and efficacy of these vaccines. And to say otherwise is simply a lie.
BURNETT: Dr. Reiner, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.
And next, Elon Musk deflecting when pressed about an explosive "New York Times" report detailing his alleged drug use. The reporter who broke the story is OUTFRONT.
Plus, new details about the investigation into the person who impersonated Trump's most powerful adviser. How easy is it? How easy is it to just impersonate someone using A.I.?
And then Trump offering marital advice to French President Macron after Macron's wife was seen shoving him on board their presidential plane.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Make sure the door remains closed. It was not good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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BURNETT: New tonight, Elon Musk refusing to respond to a brand new report in "The New York Times" that he allegedly used drugs far more intensely than previously known. At the same time, he was rising to prominence in Donald Trump's inner circle in the final months of the 2024 campaign, a report that said people familiar with Musk's activities claims that Musk's, and I quote, drug consumption went well beyond occasional use, including him telling people that he was taking so much ketamine that it was affecting his bladder.
Here's Musk's response, or lack thereof.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: There is a "New York Times" report today that accuses you of blurring the line between --
ELON MUSK, TECH BILLIONAIRE: "The New York Times", is that the same publication that got a Pulitzer Prize for false reporting on the Russia-gate? Is it the same organization?
TRUMP: I think it is. I think it is. It is.
REPORTER: I got to check my Pulitzer --
MUSK: Is that "New York Times"? Let's move on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Now, of course, Musk did admit to Don Lemon last year that he took ketamine for negative moods, but that he used it legally with a prescription at the time. He said it was like a small amount once every other week or something like that. Those were his exact words.
But the report from "The Times" is coming on the same day that President Trump bid farewell to Musk on his final day with DOGE, which included Trump presenting Musk with this golden key to the White House that you see there.
OUTFRONT now, Megan Twohey, who broke the story for "The New York Times".
And, Megan, I really appreciate your being here. I mean, this report is just unbelievable reporting that you have done. And I was just saying how much I described his ketamine use in March of 2024 when he told Don, yes, I use it. But, you know, every once in a while, in small amounts.
You did interviews with more than a dozen people who know Musk and have spent time with him over these past couple of years, and they say what he said in March of 2024 was not accurate.
MEGAN TWOHEY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yeah, that's right. My colleague Kirsten Grind and I have been reporting on this for months.
And what our reporting found was that by the time that he was giving that interview to don lemon in March of 2024, his ketamine habit, which was much more extensive than he acknowledged. By then, he was using ketamine on a much more frequent basis, on a sometimes daily basis. And we also found that as he rose to political power last year as he joined Trump on the presidential campaign trail, he was telling people that he was doing so much ketamine that it was causing bladder issues, which is a common effect of chronic use of the drug.
BURNETT: And, obviously, I mean, it obviously would be very disturbing to -- I mean, to imagine what that would be. You also report you saw a photo of what you report in the story was Musk's daily medication box. What did you see in that picture?
TWOHEY: Yes. So, we were able to obtain a photo of a medication, a daily medication box that he travels with, you know, broken up to am and p.m. that contained as many as 20 pills. And we found in that box that there were pills that had the markings of Adderall, a stimulant.
And so, what's significant here is that our reporting found that, you know, not only was he doing so much ketamine that he was telling people that it was giving him bladder issues, but that he was also using appeared to be using judging by this box, you know, many, many prescription drugs. Ketamine, a sedative, very powerful anesthetic. Adderall, a stimulant. And we also found that he was doing ecstasy and other psychedelic like mushrooms.
BURNETT: Wow. All right. This is all incredible.
Now, you do note that it wasn't clear what was happening when he was with Trump at the White House. I mean, in terms of the drug use, right? This is -- you're talking specifically during the campaign time from what you time it out.
[19:30:02]
But you heard Musk today refuse to respond to your reporting today, and instead he chose to slam "The New York Times" as we just heard him do there. And he said -- he posted tonight, and I quote his post, "The New York Times" is pure propaganda. All right? So, obviously, it's just completely dismissing all of your reporting.
What do you say to that?
TWOHEY: Well, I mean, certainly I would, you know, I would dismiss that attempt to dismiss our reporting. I mean, we submitted questions to him as early as Monday asking detailed questions about our extensive findings on his drug use and family drama and what other people have perceived as erratic behavior. He has -- he hasn't responded. And, you know, he wouldn't even let the reporter get the question out on TV today, which I thought was interesting.
I mean, he has yet to address our findings. He has refused to comment, and he's also in the process. He has not denied our findings.
BURNETT: Right. He's just -- he's just, you know, obviously disparaged or your institution. Before you go, one other thing. You have all this incredible reporting on his desire to have children, more and more of them.
Now, we had seen a report of what he's admitted to fathering at least 13 children. Your report would indicate that the number is, well, it's countless, right? You know, you talk about a pop -- a Japanese pop star and that he would have a child with anyone who wanted to have one.
So, from your reporting, do the people who know him that you spoke to, do they see a connection between the drug use and this desire to have countless children?
TWOHEY: Yeah. Yeah, some of them do. In fact, they say that -- as they see it, the sort of messy drug use that is much more extensive than previously known. And this -- it's not just that he's had this fixation on fathering more children, it's that he has often done it in secret and kept children secret from other mothers. And that's led to kind of overlapping romances and legal battles over some of the children in this growing brood.
And so that too has been just much more chaotic and messy than previously known. And I think combined, these two issues have been increasingly seen by some people close to him as signs of, you know, just erratic behavior and, and messy behavior that he has been juggling while simultaneously slashing the federal bureaucracy and you know, managing these companies.
BURNETT: Well, Megan, thank you so much. It's such incredible reporting. Everyone has a story. Everyone's been talking about today. So anyone who hasn't read it, I hope that they will in full.
And thank you so much.
TWOHEY: Oh, thank you for having me.
BURNETT: And next, someone posing as Trump's top aide has been reaching out to top Republicans and business leaders. Government officials reportedly think the impersonator used A.I. So how easy is it to do -- use A.I. and just impersonate someone?
Plus, Putin's dealmaker, the man Putin has front and center in the war negotiations, signaling to the world everything you need to know about how Putin views these talks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:37:07]
BURNETT: Tonight, the FBI investigating an elaborate plot to impersonate Trump's chief of staff, Susie Wiles. A senior White House official telling CNN that Wiles believes her personal phone and contact list was hacked, allowing the impersonator to reach governors, senators, business executives.
I mean, who knows who else? Who else? She is the chief of staff for the president of United States.
"The Wall Street Journal" reporting this includes text messages and phone calls, some reportedly sent in recent days, including while Wiles was traveling with Trump in the Middle East.
OUTFRONT now, John Miller, CNN chief law enforcement analyst and former NYPD deputy commissioner of intelligence and counterterrorism. And Henry Ajder, expert on A.I. and deepfakes and host of the BBC documentary series, "The Future Will Be Synthesized".
So, John, I mean, this story with Susie Wiles. I mean, just to think about, you know, because of her power, anybody takes her phone call, any world leader, anybody. I mean, that is -- that is power. So, the impact of this is profound.
What is the FBI looking at right now? JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So,
the FBI is looking at two things. One of them is kind of common low end and old school, which is a phishing attack where, you know, you answer a message, somebody gets into your Microsoft Outlook or your Apple, you know, things where that gives them access, depending on how you're set up to your calendar, but also your contacts.
Now, if you think of Susie Wiles contacts is a former Washington lobbyist, insider, White House chief of staff on the campaign, there's literally nobody whose phone number she doesn't have or who wouldn't take that call.
The second thing they're looking at is much newer and cutting edge, which is real time A.I. voice changers. Weve all heard the stories of recording voices and then converting them into words that you want them to say of known people that they've been used in, you know, fake kidnaping plots and things like that.
This is different. This is you pick up the phone, you use the program, you talk in your voice, and it comes out in the other person's voice in real time. So that's how someone is able to make these calls.
BURNETT: It's unbelievable.
MILLER: And impersonate it. And then the third piece they're looking at is that's the -- how to get the contact list, how these voice calls were executed. But then who's behind it? A nation state, somebody's looking for money. Somebody testing the system.
BURNETT: So, henry, you know, we don't hear Susie Wiles speak publicly very often. We don't hear her voice. You see her shaking her head no, as Trump tried to get her to speak at a podium on election night. Right? She wouldn't -- just shaking her head, wouldn't even do it.
Now she did, though, recently give a very rare interview to Fox News. So let's just play the real Susie Wiles.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSIE WILES, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: I didn't start out life thinking I would do this, and frankly, I stayed home in Jacksonville, Florida, when my kids were growing up so I could be a mom. And when they left home, a couple of people said to me, wouldn't you like to do this on some sort of a national scale?
[19:40:04]
And that was about the same time that I got that call from Donald Trump.
So, I've been in politics and government virtually my whole life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I mean, that was, I believe, just looking at our coding for our sound bite. Henry 26 seconds, I would imagine that's a lot more than you need to be able to just make a new Susie Wiles?
HENRY AJDER, LEADING GLOBAL EXPERT ON A.I. AND DEEPFAKES: Nowadays, it is, Erin. Yes. That's right.
So, I mean, if we go back even just a few years, that would have not been enough by a long stretch. Youd need a lot more high-quality, polished voice audio. But now some of the top end models you need 10 seconds or less to create, a pretty convincing clone.
And now it's important to say the more data you have, the better it will get, right? Thats maybe going to stumble on certain words, certain emotions, certain cadences of speaking might only come through having more data. But to get something that can pass, and the research has consistently shown it can pass. Yes, a lot of the models now, that would be plenty.
BURNETT: I mean, it's incredible as John's describing it, right? You just -- I pick up the phone and say something and it comes out in someone else's voice real time. I mean, Henry, just to show people how accessible this is. Over the past week, I have been stunned just looking online, you know, at some of the new technologies that are widely out there, right?
The fake videos. I mean, this car show one is just incredible. This car show report. Anybody who hasn't seen it, go watch it. It's all -- it's fake, right?
Nothing. Cars aren't real. The people aren't real. Nothing's real. And yet it. You really can't tell.
It is. I think that one is just absolutely incredible. And then you, Henry, actually created something for everyone to see here. So, you just snatched my voice from a very brief clip last night, and you created this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AI-GENERATED FAKE "ERIN BURNETT" VOICE: CNN needs to get a better coffee machine. Every cup I drink tastes like a sample of Shrek's bathwater.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: You know what, Henry? The thing is, you must -- you kind of must know me because I love Shrek. And that's exactly the kind of comment that I would make.
But it is weird for me to hear that. It is very weird for me to hear that. How easy is it now to impersonate someone like this? How easy was it for you to do that?
AJDER: Yeah, so incredibly easy. I mean, apologies for besmirching your coffee at the offices. I'm sure it's great, but you know, this was something that I could create with less than a minutes voice audio of you. I tried it with less than that even, but it wasn't as good as I wanted it to be. So, I used about a minute's worth of voice audio view. I then ran that
through a very open model. It's even an open source model, so it's not even like a company kind of providing a nice, friendly user interface. But the code is locked behind the scenes. This is something you can download and edit and implement yourself.
And within 20 seconds of typing in that script, uploading that audio, I got your Shrek comments. So, incredibly easy. And again, I think it's really important for your audience to understand this is relatively recent, that we've had quite this level of commodification of these tool sets.
Voice audio is one of the hardest ones to do well for a long, long time. And in the last couple of years, we've seen it explode. So, it's no longer the case. It's actually that impressive that I can do it because anyone can. Who can get a little bit of voice, audio and log on to a web browser.
BURNETT: I mean, it is, John, though, it is incredibly disturbing. Not just that that voice, but I mean, when you see that car show, I mean, none of its real. We don't even need real people anymore. You know, that's the -- and the fear of impersonation.
MILLER: And this is the future of crime where nothing is real or something is real, but you really can't tell when the CEO calls and says, transfer $5 million to the chief financial officer and then hangs up the phone after answering the questions. Do you call him back and say, hey, I got this call that sounded like you?
If a government official is ordering a strike on a terrorist camp does a voice come into the conversation and say, call it off? The implications are sweeping.
BURNETT: Sweeping, and truly terrifying.
MILLER: And the law is behind.
BURNETT: Yeah, the law is behind. Well, our ability as human beings is behind.
All right. Thank you both so much. I really appreciate it.
And check out, by the way, that fake car show -- car show video if you haven't for everyone out there.
And next, Trump pressed to say if Putin's a good guy or a bad guy. So how did he respond?
Plus, Trump offering up some advice to the French president after Macron's wife was seen shoving him aboard their presidential plane.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:48:38]
BURNETT: Breaking news, President Trump refusing to say that Russian president Vladimir Putin is a, quote, bad guy when asked directly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you look at this and see Putin as the good guy or the bad guy?
TRUMP: So, I've known him very well. We were going to solve a problem, and then all of a sudden, rockets got shot into a couple of cities and people died. So I'm very disappointed in that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: This comes as the Kremlin confirms that top Putin aide Vladimir Medinsky is again going to lead Russia's peace negotiations with Ukraine. Now, he's not a widely known figure. Many don't know his name, but that may be by design, because my next guest says that Medinsky's role as lead negotiator is a, quote, scandal.
And Vladimir Kara-Murza is OUTFRONT now, Putin critic, obviously. He was released from a Russian penal colony in a prisoner swap after he had been sentenced to 25 years in prison in Russia for criticizing Putin's war in Ukraine.
So, Vladimir, every time I see you, I know it's a miracle that you're here and you're back with your family. When you say that it would be a scandal for anybody if they really knew about Vladimir Medinsky, tell us why. Tell us about this person that Putin has now chosen to lead the, quote/unquote, peace negotiations.
VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA, FREED FROM RUSSIAN PRISON AFTER CRITICIZING PUTIN: Hello, Erin. And it's always good to be back on your program.
[19:50:00]
Well, when this delegation was first announced a couple of weeks ago for that first meeting in Istanbul in mid-May, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian government sort of criticized that delegation for being too low key, for being too low level, for being composed of people who don't really make decisions. And that is true.
But I think what is much more telling and yes, much more scandalous about the composition of this delegation is the person of the head of the delegation, Vladimir Medinsky. He's a so-called historian. I say so-called because a few years back, his doctoral thesis was publicly found to be plagiarized. It was a big scandal in Russia.
But if the Putin regime has, you know, any kind of ideology, Vladimir Medinsky is one of the chief ideologists of today's Kremlin. Just a couple of years ago, he authored a new history textbook for 10th and 11th graders in Russia. Since 2022, that textbook has been compulsory for all 10th and 11th graders in schools across our country.
And you know, we cannot call it a history textbook without putting quotation marks. This is just as it was back in the Soviet times when history, true history, was replaced by propaganda. So, if you read this textbook, you will read about things like, you
know, the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 or the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, were actually done at the request of these countries themselves. That's in that textbook.
The dissident movement in the Soviet Union, the people who stood up to the communist regime, you know, the most courageous, the most decent people in our country are dismissed as sort of subversive elements supported by the West and so on and so forth. You can get the -- you can get the idea.
And, of course, needless to say, the dissolution of the Soviet Union is described in that textbook as the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century. You may remember Vladimir Putin saying exactly those words 20 years ago, at the beginning of his rule.
But the most, the most scandalous, the most shocking chapter in that so-called history textbook is a chapter about Ukraine. In that chapter, Ukraine is described as not really a country, described as a neo-Nazi puppet state that is ruled by a junta that came to power after a military coup in 2014. The textbook claims that it was Ukraine that started this war, and that Russian soldiers are standing shoulder to shoulder for goodness and for the truth.
I'm not joking. This is an actual quote from history textbook to which millions of Russian schoolchildren are now being subjected to. So, it was a very telling, very illustrative move by Vladimir Putin to appoint that guy who does not even consider Ukraine to be a real country, as the head of this delegation, if anybody needed any confirmation that there's no desire whatsoever for compromise or for peace in the Kremlin, there you have it.
BURNETT: That would be it. Well, in that context, the former CIA director, General David Petraeus, says that Putin is going to attack a NATO country if he is allowed to win in Ukraine. Here's how he put it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID PETRAEUS, EX-CIA CHIEF: They want to topple Zelenskyy and replace him with a Russian puppet, so they control all of Ukraine. And once that's done, you're going to see them start to focus toward, I'd say, one of the Baltic states.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Do you agree?
KARA-MURZA: Yes, I do. And in fact, you know, my colleagues in the Russian opposition and I have been saying this for years and years and years. Vladimir Putin has been in power for a quarter of a century, and for this whole time he has repressed, imprisoned and murdered his political opponents inside Russia. And he's attacked other countries once, one after another.
You know, first it was Georgia, then it was Ukraine the first time. Then it was intervention in Syria on the side of the dictator Assad. Then it was, of course, the full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022.
In Russia, internal repression and external aggression always go hand in hand. A regime that disrespects the rights and freedoms of its own citizens is not going to respect the borders of its neighbors. And so, yes, absolutely. If Vladimir Putin is allowed to get away with this aggression against Ukraine, then there will be another war a couple of years down the line, maybe Moldova, maybe Georgia, maybe, yes, one of the Baltic countries, especially with all the mixed messages coming from Washington as to whether or not Article Five of the NATO treaty on collective self-defense still applies.
But, you know, look, there's actually -- there's actually one thing I do agree with, with Vladimir Putin. And that is when he said recently, yes, I was surprised myself, but that is what he said recently, that, you know, this war will only end while the root causes, as he put it, are addressed. Of course, he means something completely different. You know, all these ideological propaganda nonsense about the danger of NATO expansion and so on.
But I actually do agree with the statement itself, because, yes, indeed, this war will continue and there will be other wars for as long as the root cause is not addressed, and the root cause is a deranged Soviet KGB officer who is dreaming about the lost glory of the Soviet empire, who's called the dissolution of the USSR the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century, who is openly nostalgic for figures such as Joseph Stalin and Yuri Andropov. For as long as that man remains in power in Russia, there will be war, not just in Ukraine, but in Europe as a whole.
[19:55:02]
The only way to ensure peace, stability and security on the European continent is, yes, to remove that root cause. The only way to have that Europe whole, free and at peace, which you all want to see, is to have a normal, peaceful, democratic Russia.
For as long as Vladimir Putin sits in the Kremlin, war will never end.
BURNETT: Vladimir Kara-Murza, thank you so very much as always.
And next, Trump, weighing in with his marital advice for the French president.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Tonight, President Trump offering marital advice to French President Emmanuel Macron after this video of his wife seemingly shoving him in the face went viral. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Make sure the door remains closed.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: It was not good. It was not good. No. I spoke to him and he's -- he's fine. They're fine. They are two
really good people. I know him very well. And I don\t know what that was all about, but I know him very well. And they're fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Saskya Vandoorne is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SASKYA VANDOORNE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A very public display of affection in Jakarta. Just days earlier, an entirely different moment. A quick shove caught on camera and instantly viral.
International media and social media, seizing on the moment. Amid questions of what caused the shove from France's first lady and her refusal to take her husband's hand walking down the stairs of the plane.
But in France, it was old news by morning, perhaps due to the country's longstanding tradition of shielding the private lives of public figures. Their love story was never ordinary. He was 15. She, his drama teacher, married with three children.
According to an old school friend, Macron avoided girls his own age.
JEAN-BAPTISTE DE FROMENT, MACRON'S FRIEND FROM SCHOOL: They were maybe too young to be interesting for him.
VANDOORNE: Fourteen years later, they married. But not before Macron sought the approval of Brigitte's children, one of whom was his age.
TIPHAINE AUZIERE, BRIGITTE TROGNEUX'S DAUGHTER: It was a powerful act. Not everyone would have asked us first, but he wanted to know if we could accept it.
VANDOORNE: In 2017, their bond became campaign material. A modern, glamorous French love story. But some say that over time, that image has worn. After the shove, they made a show of unity hand in hand on the streets of Hanoi.
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: We were in the middle of bickering and rather joking with my wife. And I'm surprised by how this becomes a kind of geoplanetary catastrophe.
VANDOORNE: Whether it's a kiss in Jakarta or a shove in Vietnam, every moment fuels the story in a country that once prized discretion, the president is finding it harder to keep his private life out of the spotlight.
Saskya Vandoorne, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: And thanks for joining us.
Anderson starts now.
