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Erin Burnett Outfront

Texas Governor Says 170-Plus Missing From Floods As Deaths Rise To 111; Trump Turns On Putin, Claiming He's Had Enough Of Him And His Antics; Trump Threatens 50 Percent Tariff On Cooper, 200 Percent On Pharmaceuticals. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired July 08, 2025 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:27]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:

Breaking news, more than 170 people still missing in Texas after the deadly flash floods. The governor just making this stunning announcement. Why the massive spike in the unaccounted for.

Also breaking tonight, Trump ripping Putin, saying the Russian president's actions are, quote, "bullshit", as he does a complete 180 on supplying Ukraine with weapons. Something changing in just days. Is this though, a major turning point in the war?

And upping the ante. Trump delivering another blow in his escalating trade war, now saying he will slap a new 50 percent tariff on copper.

Let's go OUTFRONT.

And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.

And OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, more than 170 people are still missing after the catastrophic floods in Kerr County, Texas, alone, 161 people are known to be missing. Governor Greg Abbott, just announcing the stunning number at a press conference.

And it is a dramatic change. Officials earlier today had said there were 18 people missing. So, the governor came out and said no, that number is more than 170. It is a stunning surge and is in addition to 111 who are known to have died in the state in the floods.

That number already made this the deadliest floods in the United States in the past half century. Police say that they have not found a single survivor since Friday, and officials warn that the number of those unaccounted for could still go higher.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: Know this -- we will not stop until every missing person is accounted for. Know this also -- there very likely could be more added to that list.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Even more added to that list.

And after that stunning spike today, Shimon Prokupecz tonight reporting that officials have known for a couple of days, though, that the number of missing was much higher than that 18 that had been publicly disclosed. According to one official, one of the things that authorities have struggled to understand is the number of RVs that were actually camping in the area since the RVs weren't registered. So that created a real question mark around the number of people unaccounted for.

And as the Texas governor said, hundreds of volunteers are right now braving heat and humidity, clearing trees, removing debris, praying -- praying for a miracle of a life.

Isabel Rosales is OUTFRONT. She is live in Center Point, Texas.

And Isabel, the number missing spiking tonight, just tragically. What more are you learning about this?

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. What a stunning jump from 18 to over 170 missing in hard hit Kerr County alone. It came, Erin, as a shock to the volunteers who were working here. They found out from me because they've been putting in grueling hours attempting to find these missing people. And in fact, right behind me, you can see that they're still working under this blaring sun.

They're attempting -- there's a vehicle, they tell me underneath of this lake that they're attempting to pump all the water out and make sure that there isn't a missing one right there where we're looking at. Meanwhile, questions are being raised. If Kerr County officials gave residents enough warning.

Earlier today, officials, they wouldn't comment in a timeline of when they knew that these floods posed a deadly threat and avoided repeated questions of who knew what and when. Texas Governor Greg Abbott was also asked to. Who was to blame. And in his answer, he used a football metaphor as his response.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBOTT: I'm going to use your words. Who's to blame? Know this -- that's the word choice of losers. Every football team makes mistakes. The losing teams are the ones that try to point out who's to blame. The way winners talk is not to point fingers. They talk about solutions. What Texas is all about is solutions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALES: And CNN obtained new records and reports that shows that two days before the floods, there was actually a state inspector at Camp Mystic in Hunt that certified that there was an emergency plan in place for that campground, that the cabins and the other buildings, that they were safe and that they had that state mandated plan that included what to do in case of flooding. We've reached out to the camp for more details -- Erin.

BURNETT: Yeah, we're waiting. So many questions without answers still tonight.

Isabel, thank you so much. Reporting on the ground there. Tirelessly.

Let's go now to Ryan Logue, deputy incident commander with the United Cajun Navy.

[19:05:01]

And I appreciate your taking the time. I know you are working to try to rescue, to try to find survivors. And you here tonight, Governor Abbott saying there's 170 people missing, 161 in Kerr County alone, where you've been spending your time trying to find people.

Look, obviously the number out there earlier today had been 18. And now that that's a huge spike to more than 170. But you've been there. I mean, did you always expect that number to spike like this?

RYAN LOGUE, DEPUTY INCIDENT COMMANDER, UNITED CAJUN NAVY: To be honest, personally I think the number is closer to 500 to 600. That's my personal opinion. I'm not going to state that for anybody else. But just where were at in Center Point, if you go up the river with within about two miles, there were multiple RV parks, campgrounds and all of those people are missing.

I've talked to two of the property or the business owners, and they said they weren't sure exactly how many people were there that were there, but they were up to 100 vehicles at some of these places. And that's not being reported. So that's where there are a lot -- I believe there's a lot of miscommunication because of the children missing, because of the camps. The focus was there and because -- and also due to the -- how far, how far spread this disaster is over just a river that's 60 miles long.

It's -- I mean, no matter how many resources you have, it's going to with -- just for the government, it's going to be a difficult task. And there's -- this has never happened like this before. So, them getting people all the way down here is very, very tough. So, you know, our organization is taken up the task to, you know, take this part of the river on and, you know, begin doing the work that, you know the foot crews, the people who are volunteering, the wonderful people who are spent their time, you know, going through the woods, going through the wreckage.

But now the hard part is, is this kind of the special projects aspect of it. Right now, we're pumping out water out of areas that are 40 feet deep and probably an acre in size. I'm looking at it right now, and we've got 3 or 4 cars in there. Weve pulled a trailer out and we pulled out the axle of the trailer and the water filled in, which means the trailer inside actually had air in it.

So we've got and we've got multiple puddles like that where we are checking for all the unfortunate things. But we've had dogs hit areas. We've had -- we -- there is so much to do that you know, this is just the beginning really.

Now that the rains ended and that the waters are starting to calm some, we are just now being able to assess truly what we are up against, especially in this part of the river that we've, you know, really been assisting with just outside of Center Point.

BURNETT: Can you talk about those RV parks? What these numbers could be? I mean, numbers you're sharing are obviously hard to hear and horrifying.

Ryan, we spoke yesterday. You shared a powerful story about when you saw a child's bible with the verses highlighted, favorite verses highlighted, and how that was a moment where you allowed yourself emotion and to you allowed yourself to cry.

As you -- as you look today, what have you seen? I mean, you know, when I hear you talk about a trailer with air inside it, of course, you think, you know, perhaps there could be something somewhere where maybe somebody in that air pocket is alive, right? I mean, there's I know it may sound absurd at this point, but there's that hope against hope.

LOGUE: The hope against hope. I understand exactly what you're saying, and I you know, there was a point to where within this process, you don't you -- don't allow yourself --

BURNETT: And it sounds like we just lost the -- we just lost the connection there with Ryan. Obviously, he told you where he was looking out over the water in an area where they were trying to look for people desperately hoping for survivors as opposed to just finding, perhaps more people who have lost their lives in these horrific floods. But, you know, there are some in these RV parks who did manage to survive some stories of miraculous, frankly, no other way to describe it.

And just a few moments ago, I spoke to one of those survivors, Julia Hatfield. And here's the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURNETT: OUTFRONT now, Julia Hatfield, she's a local musician who was staying in an RV park with her husband in Kerrville, right on the banks of the Guadalupe River, when the flood hit. Their RV, which we're going to show you here, submerged in minutes. They lost everything, but, of course, escaped with the most important thing their lives together and are now trying to help their community recover from such loss and pain.

And, Julia, we are now learning just before you and I are speaking here tonight, that 161 more people or people are still missing, right?

[19:10:10]

We had not known that that number. I think many had thought that this was a horrific tragedy, but that we knew the extent of it, 161 people that that we were not aware of. It's staggering and heartbreaking. I mean, were you surprised when you heard that the number of missing

was so much higher than what officials have publicly said so far?

JULIA HATFIELD, SURVIVED FLOODS IN KERR COUNTY: Honestly, I hadn't even heard that number yet. Today. Weve been down working. We expected this. Honestly, after seeing the devastation, we, my husband and I both looked at each other and said, it's probably going to be well into the hundreds.

So, after seeing the aftermath, it felt pretty obvious this was going to end up happening and I know because you, you know, the area and also because of what happened to you, Julia, you see this in a way that few do. I mean, you were sleeping when the storm hit. Your husband wakes you up, I guess around 4:35 a.m. and you shared a video of what happened then.

So, ten minutes after you wake up, ten minutes. Your RV is totally submerged, right? So that ten minutes where for you meant life for others meant death.

Can you tell me exactly what happened? I mean, this happened so fast for you.

HATFIELD: It did. It happened very fast. My husband heard some screaming outside. We had gotten an alert. He had looked out and didn't see anything. But, of course, it was very dark. He heard screaming, looked out and saw that the RVs on the lower level were starting to be washed away. And that's when he woke me up. And about ten minutes later water was already up the side of the RV.

But thankfully at that point we were out.

BURNETT: Yeah, thank God. And you talk about the screaming. I'm sure screams, you know, you'll have to hear forever. But you, you heard a little child, a boy screaming as he was swept downstream. What happened in that moment?

HATFIELD: At that point, the rescuers were having to move their vehicles because the water was about to wash them all away. And I heard the scream, and it sounded like a child. And next thing I know, I see a little boy who was getting washed downstream and there just wasn't much to be done at that point. My husband kept yelling, do not get in the water.

I mean, it was taking RVs away. Trees were cracking. The power of that water was unreal. But thankfully the next day, by some miracle, saw his face online and he ended up surviving. So I'm very, very thankful for that.

BURNETT: Oh my gosh, such a miracle. I have to admit, I didn't think you were going to say that, but you did see his face. So, you know that that child survived.

HATFIELD: Yeah. I told my mom. I said, if that boy walked up to me, I would know exactly who he was. And when I saw his face, I knew. BURNETT: What a miracle that is. You -- you showed some of the debris. You talk about the power of the water, Julia. The debris the next morning, right. Just hours later, when some of this had receded. And now, you're involved in the recovery effort of just trying to dig through this and figure out what happened.

I mean, what are you seeing now? And when you think about the power of the water you witnessed in that moment, what does seeing the debris now feel like?

HATFIELD: I mean, it's walls of debris. They're they have been clearing things for days at this point. There have been so many dogs going through looking for people. And the -- at this point, our focus is just trying to find those people.

The piles, though, are unbelievable. Many of them are very hard to sort through because there's so many parts of metal RVs that have been bent in half, just whole trees. Things that that make 40-foot, 30-foot piles. It's been a lot to go through them, but they're still finding people probably every hour.

BURNETT: Well, Julia, thank you so much for taking a few minutes to talk to me. And thank you for sharing the story of that little boy. Just a little bright miracle, perhaps, for everyone to be able to appreciate. Thank you so much.

HATFIELD: Thank you for having me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNETT: And next, our breaking news continues. This massive spike in the missing in Texas, most of them in Kerr County, home to so many of those kids summer camps, including Camp Mystic, which you've heard so much about. Everyone from the families of Presidents Johnson and Bush have attended that camp.

Plus, breaking news. We have new reporting just into OUTFRONT right now about who -- who in the Trump administration paused U.S. weapons shipments in Ukraine without apparently telling the president.

[19:15:06]

Well, guess what? We know who. We're going to tell you.

And Trump tonight facing a MAGA meltdown. Many of his supporters are up in arms after his administration failed to deliver on the Epstein conspiracy theories.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BURNETT: Breaking news, at least 161 people are still missing in Kerr County, Texas. More than 170 known to be missing statewide. Texas Governor Greg Abbott confirming those numbers, which suggests that the death toll currently at 111, could obviously go up significantly. It could more than double. And the tragedy here is horrific. Recovery efforts though are ongoing at this hour. Kerr County is the

epicenter of the devastation. At least 87 confirmed dead of the 111 total. Officials confirming that no survivors have been found there since Friday.

[19:20:00]

OUTFRONT now, Officer Jonathan Lamb of the Kerrville police department, Kerrville is the county seat of Kerr County.

And, Officer, a grateful for your time and so sorry for -- for your community, for you, for your family, for your colleagues and what you are enduring right now.

Governor Abbott, really shocking the world in the country when he announced the number of people missing in your county is 161. Earlier today, they said overall it was only 18 statewide. So, it's a huge jump.

How did it go up so quickly? Do you know?

SGT. JONATHAN LAMB, KERRVILLE, TEXAS POLICY COMMUNITY SERVICES OFFICER AND PIO: I really don't, but I have no reason to doubt that number. This was a catastrophic flood. Very, very devastating, as you can see from the damage behind me.

And Fourth of July weekend, we had a lot of people along the river. The Guadalupe River is a beautiful river, and it's one that draws people from across the state and across the country and from around the world. So, we had a lot of visitors here and our own citizens here along the river. And a lot of unfortunate victims were caught up in this tragedy.

BURNETT: You know, CNN is reporting that officials were aware for a couple of days that the number of missing was much higher than the number that had been put out there, but they were reticent to talk about it because the number of RVs, it was hard to confirm how many RVs were there because they weren't all registered, right? So they couldn't get a real sense of the number. And that's why they decided to wait until today when they had a better feel.

I mean, how challenging, officer, has it been to, to account for people who may be missing to know who really is missing?

LAMB: Yeah, you've -- you've hit the nail on the head right there. It really is, because we do have a lot of people who came here in campers, RVs and camped along the river. And, you know, if nobody reports them missing, if nobody is looking for them, we may not know that they're missing. And that really has been the big challenge for this thing.

Recovery and rescue operations are ongoing and they'll continue. But getting a handle on exactly how many people were looking for has been tough.

BURNETT: Officer, it's been four days since the flooding. I mean, have you -- have you found any survivors since Friday.

LAMB: The last live survivor in Kerr County was recovered on Friday.

Do you have hope that that that there could be any more or at this point, are you facing the hard reality that it truly is a recovery effort for anybody that you do find?

LAMB: You know, Erin, I'll tell you, I think that the reality of the situation is the more time that passes, it becomes harder and harder to become optimistic. But we're not stopping. And whether someone decides and it won't be me that makes that decision that this is changed from a rescue operation to a recovery operation, nothing is going to change for us. We're going to continue to search and look to try and reunite families, because that's where our focus is on reuniting families with their missing loved ones and bringing them closure.

BURNETT: There are obviously a lot of time is going to have to pass to understand exactly what happened. And I know people talk about the alerts and whether sirens would have helped. And all of these very fair conversations, Officer.

But, you know, there are some reports suggesting just such different outcomes in places so close together, right? The boys at Camp La Junta managed to evacuate safely. Camp Mystic, the girls camp so tragically lost 27 campers and staff.

Do you have any sense as to why the outcomes were so different in places that are so nearby? I believe those camps are just a few miles apart.

LAMB: You know, there has been a lot of questions about that, and I think it's been addressed many times, and I think that I'll let people who really have fact-based knowledge about the particulars of that speak to that. But what I can speak to is what happened here inside the city limits of Kerrville, and how our Kerrville police department team performed under life threatening conditions.

Our officers responded to the flooding event that flooded our town, the Guadalupe River jumped its banks, and they for hours were wading through thigh deep, waist deep, chest deep water, rescuing people from cars, from campers, from evacuating people from homes and apartments, risking their own lives to save others.

And there's going to be a time to tell all of those stories. And right now, really isn't that time. You know, our focus is still on the victims and reuniting families. But there's things that I can't speak to because I just don't know about it. And what I do know about is how heroically this KPD team is performed, and I couldn't be prouder.

[19:25:03]

And they truly did redefine above and beyond. In the early morning hours of July 4th, along with all the other first responders from this area. BURNETT: And it is incredible to imagine the lives they saved, the

families that will forever just be -- be full of gratitude to them for coming in and risking their own lives.

And, Officer, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me.

LAMB: Thank you, ma'am.

BURNETT: I just mentioned the devastating toll on Camp Mystic, which you have heard about the tragedy there at the girls camp, and rescuers are still searching for any sign of the five girls and one counselor who are still missing from the camp, hoping against hope that they can find survivors there.

Now, there were roughly 750 children at that camp when the flood struck.

Jason Carroll is OUTFRONT with more on Camp Mystic and its long and special history.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This special place, sprawling more than 700 acres in an area known as Texas Hill Country, has been home away from home for young girls for nearly a century.

Camp Mystic video showing a caring place where lifelong friendships have been built for generations.

CLAUDIA SULLIVAN, FORMER CAMPER, CAMP MYSTIC: I loved every moment of it and never wanted to leave.

CARROLL: Claudia Sullivan still remembers her first day of camp, some 60 years ago, in 1964, when she was just 14 years old, and she still remembers the cabin mate she almost had.

SULLIVAN: I was actually supposed to be a cabin mate with Luci Johnson, but her father had become president just a few months before, and she didn't get to go to camp because there was no place for the Secret Service to stay.

CARROLL: By attending Camp Mystic, Sullivan joined a long legacy of young girls who spent summers in Kerr County, Texas, since the camp was formed back in 1926, including Lyndon B. Johnson's daughter, Luci.

LUCI BAINES JOHNSON, CAMP MYSTIC ALUM: It's a place where you came to love and be loved.

CARROLL: Johnson paid tribute to Dick Eastland, the camp owner and director who perished while trying to save campers. His family has run Camp Mystic for three generations.

JOHNSON: One of the things that was so magical about Dick Eastland is that he would find, even in the little girls like myself, who whose skills were not necessarily athletic and who had yet to kind of find themselves. He would -- he would find whatever talent you had and make you feel he believed in you.

CARROLL: Jenna Bush Hager also spoke about her ties to the camp. Her mother, former First Lady Laura Bush, once worked there.

JENNA BUSH HAGER, HOST, TODAY WITH JENNA & FRIENDS: My mom was a counselor there, but also so many of my friends were raised at this camp.

CARROLL: Claudia Sullivan felt such a strong connection to Camp Mystic. She became a counselor and then a program director. She left in 1979, but she says Camp Mystic always stays with you.

SULLIVAN: We had a saying at Mystic, God is first, my neighbor is second, and I am third, and you know, from seven years old on up, you learn that and you try to practice it and it feels so easy. You know, that was the other thing. It's so easy to be good at camp.

CARROLL: Sullivan wrote a book about Mystic called "Since We Were There". One passage in particular now feels especially heartfelt.

SULLIVAN: That special place, the land, the rolling hills, the Earth waits to be enlivened again. It waits for new stories and memories. It waits to breathe again with the laughter and delight of innocence.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL (on camera): A moving passage there from her book. You know, Erin Sullivan also talked about so many of the bonds that were created because of Camp Mystic.

And she told me a story about a event that happened, a reunion just not long ago. She said more than 300 people showed up for that reunion. The oldest was 82 years old. She said they all came, came out, they swam in the river. They stayed in the cabin, she says. It's those type of special bonds that are going to help this community get through all of this -- Erin.

BURNETT: Jason, thank you so much.

And next, the breaking news. Trump pulling a 180 on weapons shipments to Ukraine, a total about face. And on top of it lashing out directly at Vladimir Putin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We got a lot of bullshit thrown at us by Putin, if you want to know the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Plus, a civil war erupting tonight inside Trump's base. Tucker Carlson warning of a revolution after the administration failed to deliver on the so-called Jeffrey Epstein client list.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:33:57]

BURNETT: Tonight. Trump turning on Putin, claiming he's had enough of him and his antics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: A lot of people are dying and it should end. And I don't know. We get -- we get we get a lot of bullshit thrown at us by Putin, if you want to know the truth. He's very nice all the time, but it turns out to be meaningless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Well, now, Trump is seeming to put his money where his mouth is now, saying that Ukraine will have the weapons to defend itself under his administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We want to put defensive weapons because Putin is not -- he's not treating human beings right. He's killing too many people. So we're sending some defensive weapons to Ukraine. And I've approved that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: All right. This is a stunning turnaround for Trump, right? To say the least. I mean, just as recently as last week, right. This all started because the administration paused the delivery of missiles to Ukraine, something that Trump was asked about today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: So, who ordered the pause last week?

TRUMP: I don't know. Why don't you tell me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:35:04]

BURNETT: Well, we will in just a moment. We've got some new reporting on this. And Natasha Bertrand is breaking some significant news on that in just a moment. But, of course, despite the criticism today that Trump has had for Putin, the reason it is so stunning and so shocking to anyone watching is because we have all heard Trump shower Putin with praise for years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I also have a very good relationship, as you know, with President Putin. I knew Putin very well, got along with him actually great. Putin is a nicer person than I am. So now I like Putin. Now Putin called me a genius, by the way.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: And since the beginning of Putin's war in Ukraine, Trump has done something even more than those personal accolades, right? He has actually repeated Putin's talking points about the war again and again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: A dictator without elections. Zelenskyy better move fast or he's not going to have a country left. You should have never started it. You could have made a deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: And Trump remember this, he told "Time MAGAzine". And I quote him. I think what caused the war to start was when they started talking about joining NATO, referring to Ukraine. That, of course, is one of the key propaganda talking points from Putin.

And today, longtime Putin ally, top Russian security official, now Dmitry Medvedev is mocking Trump, for, he says, flip-flopping, writing online, quote, "The American is riding his favorite political swing again. How should we treat this? Nothing. Continue to achieve the goals of the special military operation."

Natasha Bertrand is live in Washington with some real breaking news on this.

Natasha, you are getting new information about what sort of sparked all of this, which appears to be suddenly the U.S. paused weapons shipments to Ukraine last week. All of a sudden, there was this this pause, and we just heard Trump deny knowing who ordered the pause. But you've learned what happened.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Erin. So, my colleague Scott Cohen and I are getting a little bit of a better sense of the timeline here and just how all of this played out. What were told is that Secretary of Defense Hegseth did not actually inform the White House prior to approving that pause on the weapons shipments.

And that pause actually came about because President Trump last month, when he was on a trip to NATO with Secretary of Defense Hegseth, with Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, he asked them for essentially a state of play when it comes to the U.S. weapons stockpiles, because, of course, Iran and Israel were attacking each other and U.S. troops in the Middle East were put at risk. And so, he essentially wanted an assessment of, hey, do we have enough in the region in order to protect U.S. troops if they need to defend themselves?

But Secretary of Defense Hegseth then kind of delegated that request down to the undersecretary of defense for policy, Elbridge Colby, who ultimately himself made that recommendation to pause this weapon shipment. But Secretary Hegseth ultimately did sign off on it. Now, after all of that, we're told, that pause was not actually told to the White House in real time. The White House found out about it in large part through press reports, including Secretary of State Rubio, who is also the president's national security adviser, was not looped in on this beforehand.

And so we're told that after he found out about this pause, Trump actually pressed Hegseth to release at least part of that shipment of Patriot interceptors to the Ukrainians, because, as we have heard Trump say repeatedly in recent days, the Ukrainians need those defensive weapons. And we're told that he sent much the same message to President Zelenskyy during that phone call on Friday, in which, yet again, he also downplayed his role in the decision to pause these weapons shipments, Erin.

BURNETT: All right, Natasha, thank you very much. And incredible, though, what you're saying that this was paused in the White House was not informed. The national security advisor was not informed. Marco Rubio, secretary of state.

Retired General Wesley Clark and David Axelrod are with me now.

So, David, you know, you spent a lot of time working in a White House. So, when you hear this that the defense secretary signs off on pausing weapons shipments to Ukraine, does not tell the White House, does not tell the national -- Marco Rubio, in his role and the president, president Trump says he didn't know who even did this and who approved it. When you hear all this, what do you hear?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Absolutely astonishing. I mean, I'll yield to General Clark, who's got a much richer and deeper grasp of military history and -- than I do.

But I will tell you from my years in the White House, the idea that a decision like that would be taken on a matter of such import, and obviously in a critical, critical place without the national security advisor being informed and the president of the United States is beyond belief to me.

And if I were the president, I'd be furious about that. I thought it was odd at the cabinet meeting today, when Kaitlan asked him that question and he said, well, I don't know, you tell me.

[19:40:00]

And the secretary of defense was sitting right next to him.

So, the whole thing was peculiar. Look, I hope this change of heart is real and that these systems, these go through in full. There's some talk of an additional patriot air defense system this evening that he wants to send more. That would be great. But this raises alarm bells about how decisions are being made.

BURNETT: I mean, General Clark, it certainly seems to that something like this would be delegated to an undersecretary and sort of signed, sealed, delivered and take effect with no one telling anybody in the White House or telling Marco Rubio and his role.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Well, first, it says there's no real policy about Ukraine. That's a well- defined, staffed policy. That's the first thing. Secondly, I'm sure that they thought they were following through on

the president's intent. You know, the president has used rhetoric about Putin for several months now. I'm frustrated. This is not right, blah, blah, blah. Vlad, stop it. But he never has done anything.

And so, you have to believe if you're in the administration, that all along there's, you know, there's an understanding. It's what Vice President Vance said at the Munich Conference. He said, you Europeans are going to have to take care of yourselves or we're too busy. We don't have the resources, et cetera, et cetera.

And so, I think they just thought they were following through on the president's priorities. But back to what David said. You know, the rhetoric is fine, but if you're going to really provide defense, what is defense? You want defense. Shoot the archer, not the arrows. Shoot the archer.

And that means going deep, airfields, a lot of things, not just Patriot missiles.

BURNETT: Right. And obviously in terms of changing what's actually going to be provided, which David brings me to what Trump said today, because as General Clark points out, yes, his rhetoric about frustration with Putin has risen over recent months. Right. But his actions and his long history has said the opposite.

So, what he said today was very significant about Putin. Here it is again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We get a lot of bullshit thrown at us by Putin, if you want to know the truth. He's very nice all the time, but it turns out to be meaningless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: So --

AXELROD: Yeah, if he -- if he --

BURNETT: David, what do you think this means?

AXELROD: I don't know what it means because the president hasn't been very consistent on a lot of different things. This is stunning because he has been so defensive of Putin and on a lot of issues. I mean, we stood up for them at the U.N. We haven't applied additional sanctions, though the Congress wants to. We put higher tariffs on Ukraine, but not Russia.

There's been a lot of rhetoric from the president, but he's not done anything. As the general said. So, what this means now, we don't know.

His language, if you listen to it was we need to send them some. What does that mean? I think the Ukrainians are anxious to find out. BURNETT: Yeah. I think as General Clark said, it's the definition of

that that could mean absolutely everything. But the rhetoric and the president going and actually swearing, using the word "bullshit" to describe what Putin is doing is obviously expressing a new level of frustration, at least, that we've publicly seen.

Thank you both so very much.

And next, Trump's MAGA base tonight revolting over the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case. Far right activist Laura Loomer calling for the attorney general to be fired.

Plus, Trump's trade war escalating tonight. The president now threatening to slap a 200 percent tariff on pharmaceutical imports.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:45:58]

BURNETT: Tonight, President Trump slamming a reporter for asking about his own Justice Department's new memo that definitively said Jeffrey Epstein was not murdered in prison and that a so-called Epstein client list did not exist. Two conspiracy theories that have consumed and fueled the MAGA base for years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? This guy's been talked about for years. You're asking -- we have Texas. We have this. We have all of the things.

And are people still talking about this guy, this creep? That is unbelievable. I can't believe you're asking a question on Epstein at a time like this, where we're having some of the greatest success and also tragedy with what happened in Texas. It just seems like a desecration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Of course, the Epstein conspiracy theories have been pushed by MAGA leaders. I mean, Dan Bongino, Kash Patel, Pam Bondi, Trump's own attorney general, said the client list was on her desk. Now, some Trump supporters, high profile ones like Laura Loomer, are calling for Bondi's resignation. Some even critical of Trump himself

OUTFRONT now, Gretchen Carlson and Jamal Simmons.

And, Gretchen, what we're seeing now in Trump's defensiveness perhaps goes to the heart of this, because the reason Jeffrey Epstein is a story is because there has been at the core of a MAGA conspiracy belief for a long time.

GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST: Certainly, and as a journalist, if I were advising Trump, he gave the worst answer possible because deflecting like that, which is typical Trump, that doesn't make the story go away. I mean, that's just going to make journalists keep wondering. And for his base to keep wondering, because remember Elon Musk on his way out the door, said that Trump was on this list.

So now people are going to be saying, well, is he deflecting because he really doesn't want this story out there? Or were they just building this up to gin up the base before the election and years before to care about this? Or is he protecting Pam Bondi because she also went out on a limb and interviews on Fox over the last couple of months and said she had this list. So, what actually is the truth? This was not a good day for P.R. for Trump.

BURNETT: I mean, Jamal, Tucker Carlson had a strong warning about what might happen if people come out of this concluding guess what? There is a cover up, as Gretchen, alluding to the possibility that people could believe that there's a cover up about the Epstein allegations. Here's Carlson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, FORMER FOX NEWS HOST: And Pam Bondi went on television and said, I have a videotape of kids getting abused. I didn't -- I followed this case closely, and I know a lot of the people involved, as I've told you, I had no idea. I didn't know that, really.

Thousands of children got raped. Who raped them? Where are the rapists? Like, why aren't they in jail? This is the Department of Justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

T. CARLSON: That is so crazy. This is like the -- this is -- honestly, one of the craziest things I've ever seen in my entire life. And I just think it's very dangerous to play around with this stuff. Like very dangerous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's --

T. CARLSON: I don't want a revolution. But if you wanted a revolution, this is how you would act all right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Jamal, what do you think hearing that from Tucker?

JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, Tucker is being dangerous by alluding to something like a revolution when we're talking about the MAGA people, because we know that MAGA forces have been willing to use violence in pursuit of their political aims. We saw it on January 6th. You know, Gretchen said something a second ago about is Trump covering for Pam Bondi.

But the question also may be, is Pam Bondi covering for Trump? We just really don't know.

Donald Trump has been very forceful. He's a great television performer. When the question of Epstein comes up every time he dissembles, he attacks the reporter. Remember, before he'll release the UFO files, he'll release the JFK files. Will you release the Epstein files? Well, I don't know if we should,

you know, do that. People, innocent people may get wrapped up in that.

I just think something's going on here. We've got to keep asking the questions until we find out what's really happening. And they should just release the files.

[19:50:00]

BURNETT: I mean, right, I mean, that seems to be the point, Gretchen, at this point. And this is something that has been spun up right by some of the very people who are now saying, I mean, when Kash Patel and Dan Bongino came out recently and tried to downplay the Epstein files, they were eviscerated by the MAGA base, right? And now this is putting the whole thing on steroids.

Far right activist Laura Loomer, Gretchen, you know, we know Trump listens to her. She has been hammering Pam Bondi on social media. She posted, how come we can't talk about what a dumb, lying bimbo Pam Bondi is?

J.D. Vance, please encourage President Trump to fire Pam Bondi. She's a disgrace.

So, what do you hear when you hear this? I mean, look, Laura Loomer, we know has had very specific, tangible influence on Trump, on big decisions.

CARLSON: Yes, in national security, specifically in the last few months. I do think she has Trump's ear. So, you know, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Trump seemed to be protecting Bondi today, but I think one other really important point is in this second administration, we have seen a lot of MAGA supporters of Trump come out and be totally against him on really big issues.

And what I think is fascinating is that he can go after people who are in groups, like lawyers, like members of Congress, I'll primary you if you don't agree with me, but with these single influencers, he's not doing that. And I think that raises a huge question about whether or not he has the power to actually silence them.

BURNETT: And, Jamal, I guess the whole question is, is there really no "there" there? Or is the question who is covering up for whom?

SIMMONS: That is the question. Listen, what is sobering is that Donald Trump, if this were normal times, Donald Trump, he's got -- he's turned around on Ukraine. And there are people in MAGA who are upset about that.

He was in this relationship with Elon Musk who's now turned on him. He wants to start a party. And so that could maybe peel off people. Now we've got the Epstein files.

All these things that would normally take down a regular politician, Donald Trump seems to be able to survive these things. I mean, he's such a political force, it doesn't really matter. But what does happen is the people around him are the ones who catch the brick.

And so, the question for Pam Bondi is, is this going to limit her ability to either be an effective attorney general or to even keep her job as attorney general? And we'll see.

BURNETT: All right. Gretchen, Jamal, thank you both.

And next, Trump and his team reportedly flip-flopping at least 28 times when it comes to Trump's trade war since he announced the sweeping tariffs this spring. The executive director of the busiest port in the United States is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BURNETT: Breaking news, President Trump announcing a jaw dropping 50 percent tariff on all copper imports. And now also threatening a 200 percent tariff on pharmaceutical imports.

It comes as Trump tries to claim that he never moved his tariff, negotiating deadline, which was once set for tomorrow.

[19:55:04]

It is now August 1st.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It wasn't a change. It was August 1st. We don't change very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: All right. To be honest, with all the kind of switching and back and forth on this can be hard to count. Forbes has come out and said that there are 28 times that Trump and his team have changed their minds about tariffs since the so-called Liberation Day, when Trump announced that sweeping tariff hike at the beginning of April.

OUTFRONT now, Gene Seroka, the executive director of the port of Los Angeles, which is the busiest port in the United States, he's in Japan tonight where Trump just threatened a 25 percent tariff on all Japanese imports to that American ally.

So, Gene, I want to get to that situation in just a moment in Japan where you are right now. But first, the commerce secretary saying that these copper tariffs are likely going into effect on August 1st, and this is another 50 percent tariff on all copper imports.

What's the impact of this?

GENE SEROKA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PORT OF LOS ANGELES: Good evening, Erin.

And as we've discussed before, from steel and aluminum tariffs to now copper, these metals go into everything. From automobiles to buildings and homes and even plumbing in our houses. Raising tariffs in one sector will lead to higher prices in others. And yet, just compounding the complexity of all this information for those in international and domestic transportation to take in.

BURNETT: So, you know, despite the denial from Trump on the moving of the dates here, part of the issue is that the -- that the dates keep moving and that the tariffs themselves keep moving in level, right? It's a lot of uncertainty. The original -- there had been a deadline on July 9th. Now that's August 1st.

And as I mentioned, Forbes says that the overall count of changes in tariff policy is 28, since all of this began in the spring. So, in that context, from what you are seeing in the port and what's being shipped in, how are businesses dealing with the fact that the goalpost here and the level of tariff is constantly shifting?

SEROKA: Erin, it's been bumpy. Our main numbers at the port were down 19 percent compared to April when we released the June numbers next week, they'll be up 20 percent compared to may. So, this stop-start because of information is really stressing the supply chain. And yet our dock workers, truckers and so many others around the port have answered the bell each and every time.

It's just hard to predict how you're going to be ready from a labor standpoint, land, machinery. And if you're making decisions three and four months out, like many importers are, it becomes that much more difficult.

BURNETT: And, you know, when there had been some respite in one of those tariff shifts, perhaps that's what it helped with the increase in June numbers. If I heard you right, 20 percent that you're seeing for the month of June that you just saw for the month of June.

You know, what are you seeing now? I mean, there was one point you and I talked this spring where orders for dock -- dock workers was down 50 percent. Right now, you're seeing that jump again in June. What are you seeing so far? Just in the beginning of July.

SEROKA: The volume will start to taper off in July because many folks brought in cargo leading up to this July 9th deadline, and also tried to get some product in for the all-important year-end holidays. On the retail side, if those orders aren't in, they likely won't be and merchandizers will have to grapple with lower levels of inventory, fewer selections, and likely higher prices.

But safe to say right now from our forecasting with the port optimizer, volume begins to drop in the month of July, when it should be picking up for that traditional season.

BURNETT: Yes. So, it is all confusing and uncertainty can cause, you know, feed upon itself, which is in a sense the main question about why you are where you are.

You're in Japan right now, Gene, I don't know if you were sleeping -- well, you probably weren't because you're jet-lagged. But flying in what you were doing. But all of a sudden, the entire landscape of Japan changed, right? Trump is now threatening a 25 percent tariff on all Japanese goods coming into the United States, right? That's shifted in the past few hours.

The prime minister of Japan has come out and called it deeply regrettable. So, I mean, do they believe it's really going to happen? What are you hearing from people there right now?

SEROKA: Yes, Erin, no one is being dismissive. And we got together here in Japan for a global port authorities meeting to talk about trade and infrastructure, knowing that this time would be so important to world trade. Also, while I'm here on the ground, starting in Osaka, I'm going to be assessing what Japan based companies are telling me about, what the next steps are.

And what I'm hearing. Early hours now on the ground is that there reprograming their supply chains, trying to understand the scenarios if 25 percent sticks and what happens to manufacturing broadly, these companies, these iconic brands in Japan have manufacturing facilities around the world. Now it's time to start moving levers on what makes sense most for them and their customers.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Gene, obviously so eager to hear how these meetings go in these next few days as, again, a seismic shift in the tariff ground underneath where you are right now.

Thank you so much to Gene Seroka, joining us from Osaka tonight.

And thanks so much to all of you for being with us.

"AC360" starts now.