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Erin Burnett Outfront

CNN Exclusive: Private Trump-Epstein Photos Shed New Light On Ties; Obama Fights Back; Ozzy Osbourne, Heavy Metal Icon And Reality TV Star, Dead At 76. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired July 22, 2025 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:27]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:

Breaking news, new images of Trump and Epstein together. You'll see them here first OUTFRONT, along with brand new reporting from our KFILE team.

Plus, Jeffrey Epstein's brother Mark is OUTFRONT. What he says about Trump and his brother, and when Jeffrey Epstein first confessed his crimes to him.

And Obama tonight fighting back hard, not giving Trump an inch. Is Obama now the Democrat who knows to take on Trump?

Let's go OUTFRONT. And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.

OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, a CNN exclusive tonight OUTFRONT, KFILE has unearthed photos of Jeffrey Epstein that we've never seen. And they shed new light on his relationship with President Trump. The revelations come as Trump is under fire from his own base for his Justice Department's handling of the so-called Epstein files. Trump has tried, of course, to distance himself from Epstein every which way.

But one of the photos that KFILE found confirms that Epstein actually attended Donald Trump's wedding to Marla Maples. And this is the proof. Again, this has never been published before. So, this is a new image. You haven't seen it out there on X or anything like that.

This is the proof that Epstein attended Trump's wedding at the Plaza Hotel in New York. And in the photo, what you see is Epstein entering the Plaza Hotel. The wedding date of this is December 20th, 1993. In the center of their friendship, which, of course, continued. And for comparison, we'll show you on the right a photo of Trump and Marla Maples at the same location under the entryway arch.

Now, we're going to have much more on this image and others that k has unearthed, including one that shows Epstein and Trump's daughter Ivanka in just a moment.

But it comes as three guests on this show who either knew Epstein or knew Trump have all used the exact same words to describe Trump and Epstein's relationship. Over the past week. As we've been talking to them, and you've heard them, and they have done this totally unprompted. So here is a former Trump business executive. One of Epstein's former girlfriends, and an Epstein accuser who says she had a troubling incident with Trump.

They all said the exact same thing here on OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were best friends.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were best friends.

JACK O'DONNELL, FORMER TRUMP BUSINESS ASSOCIATE: He was his best friend.

(END VIDEO CLP)

BURNETT: You heard them. And right there, Jack O'Donnell, Trump's former business associate, talking about what Epstein meant to Trump. These are people, right, who each met Epstein and Trump at different times in different places. And just to state the obvious in totally different capacities. And yet, they all concur on this crucial thing. They say that when they knew them, Trump and Epstein were best friends.

So, in just a moment, I'm going to speak to Mark Epstein. He is the brother of Jeffrey Epstein, about all of this.

(AUDIO GAP) right to that CNN exclusive that I just told you about that is breaking at this hour, Andrew Kaczynski of KFILE is here with the new images of Trump and Epstein.

And, Andrew. I shared one of them there. But, you know, so let's start with the one at Trump's wedding. I mean, this is a significant development.

ANDREW KACZYNSKI, CNN KFILE SENIOR EDITOR: Well, yeah, it is. Trump's wedding to Marla Maples in 1993 was dubbed the "wedding of the century" by the media at the time. And although we know that Trump and Epstein were friends during this period, this is really the first time that it's actually been reported that Trump invited Epstein to his wedding, which is, we should note, more than a decade before those first allegations of sex trafficking against Epstein.

But as you know, Trump's relationship with Epstein has been under the microscope recently. Now, besides that, one photo of Epstein entering the reception at the Plaza Hotel, we can also see him in the background of another picture. That's Howard Stern on the far right, along with Robin Leach from "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous". And Epstein is behind them at the wedding, almost seeming to be photobombing them.

We also found this photo from just a few months earlier, Donald Trump with two of his children talking to Jeffrey Epstein. Thats at the opening of the Harley-Davidson Cafe in New York in October 1993. You can see Ivana there. She would have been just about to turn 12 years old. And in that photo.

BURNETT: Yeah, you can see Ivanka right there between -- it looks like between Trump and Epstein.

[19:05:00]

All right. These are never before seen photos, Andrew. I know you also found some video of Trump and Epstein that was from later, that -- of them talking. That has also never surfaced before. What's that?

KACZYNSKI: Well, that's right. This is from six years later in 1999.

This video has never been seen before in this context. It shows Trump talking to Jeffrey Epstein just before models hit the runway at the Victoria's Secret fashion show in New York in 1999. You know, the only other video we've seen of the two men was seven years before this.

Trump is at the show with Melania, who is, of course, now first lady, seated a few feet away from Epstein. You can see them chatting during the show as well. Allegations that Epstein sexually abused underage girls didn't surface until 2005, years after this video was shot.

BURNETT: Right. But this, of course, establishes them together and obviously very friendly in 1999.

So, Andrew, when you get all this and all of this, as I just want to emphasize, right, has not been seen before. So, you actually called President Trump. You called him directly to ask him about this.

KACZYNSKI: Yeah. We were not on the phone very long. I think our call is about 30 seconds or so. But when I asked him about the wedding photo, he said he sort of paused for a second and then said, you've got to be kidding me before calling CNN fake news and then hanging up on me.

Now, in a statement to CNN, White House communications director Steven Cheung said this. He said, "These are nothing more than out of context frame grabs of innocuous videos and pictures of widely attended events to disgustingly infer something nefarious. The fact is that president -- the president kicked him out of his club for being a, quote, creep.

BURNETT: All right. Well, it is incredible reporting, and it is important in this context, as the country wants answers on everything to do with Epstein.

Andrew, thank you so much for all of that breaking news.

OUTFRONT now, Mark Epstein, the brother of Jeffrey Epstein.

And, Mark, you know, from what you know, from what you saw, how close was your brother to Donald Trump.

MARK EPSTEIN, BROTHER OF JEFFREY EPSTEIN (via telephone): They were very close. They were good friends. Jeffrey used to sometimes tell me things that Donald said that were funny. I know Donald was in Jeffs office a lot back in the '90s. It's documented that Donald flew on Jeff's plane a number of times.

I don't know if they ever checked, but I know Jeff flew in Donald's plane. Also, I don't know if they've ever looked at his flight logs and they were good friends. I flew on Jeff's plane. It's known that I was on a plane in 1999, flying up from Florida, and Donald was with us, you know, and we were all joking around. They were -- they were good friends.

BURNETT: So, you know, tell me about that. I know there was -- there was something on that flight that you remember about your brother and Trump. What is it?

EPSTEIN: Well, it was a funny thing. We were talking and -- well, stick a pin in that a couple of weeks or a week before that flight, I was talking to Jeffrey, and he told me that he was talking to Donald, and he asked Donald, how come you sleep with so many married women? And Donald's answer was, because it's so wrong.

Now amongst guys, it was a funny line. And then when we were on the plane a week or two later, Jeffrey asked Donald the same question. I know he did that for my benefit so that I could hear Donald say it. And Jeffrey asked him, how come you sleep with so many married women? And Donald said, because it's so wrong.

Now, it's a funny line, but the answer is not the poignant part of the story here. The question is the poignant part, because for Jeffrey to ask him that question, number one, he would have to know that Donald slept with a lot of married women. So -- and he probably got that information from Donald. And also --

BURNETT: It implies a confidence.

EPSTEIN: That -- yeah, that's not the kind of question you ask a casual acquaintance. You know, how come you slept with so many married women? That's a question you ask a good friend that you can get away with asking those kind of questions. So that gives you an idea of how friendly they were.

BURNETT: Yes, it does, it does. It certainly gives that perception.

Now, okay, Mark Trump admits they had a falling out with your brother. That's what he said happened. He has not shared what led to it. But here are some of the things that he has been willing to say about your brother. I want to play them for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was not a fan of Jeffrey Epstein. I threw him out of a club. I didn't want anything to do with him. Jeffrey Epstein was not somebody that I respected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: That does not fit with what you're telling me, Mark.

EPSTEIN: Yeah, I understand it doesn't, but he's trying to cover his butt. I mean, look, I understand people trying to distance themselves from Jeffrey because of what he was charged with and the circumstances he found himself in. I understand that, you know, but I know that they were good friends. And I witnessed it myself.

[19:10:03]

BURNETT: You mentioned something a moment ago that that made me think of this, you know, something that the White House told us yesterday. We talked to a woman who accused your brother of sexual assault, and she also talked about an encounter with Trump at your brother's office. This was in 1995. She found it disturbing. She said she told the FBI twice to look into people around your brother, including Trump.

But she talked about this incident that she said happened in his office and the White House. Their response to us, mark, they were categorical. They said, quote, the president was never in Epstein's office. That -- is that true?

EPSTEIN: That's just the blatant -- that's just another blatant lie because he was there. The people that worked for Jeffrey in his office, you can find him, they can testify that they saw Trump in Jeffrey's office on numerous occasions, you know? So for him to say he wasn't there, all I can say is that just -- just another lie.

BURNETT: So, you talk about him as your brother and your -- your -- you know, you were on the plane together at that time. When did your brother first tell you that he was in legal trouble? When did you know anything about what he was doing?

EPSTEIN: It was about 2006 when he first got into trouble. You know, it's known -- prior to Jeffrey's death. You know, I hadn't seen him for seven years, although we were always in touch, you know, communication with telephone or emails, but we just never got together. And for the 12 years prior to that period of time, from like 2004 until 2008, we only got together maybe a half a dozen times or so, but we were always in contact.

And in 2006, Jeffrey asked me to come up to his place uptown. He wanted to talk to me, so I was uptown. I stopped by. I'm not uptown all that much back then. I lived downtown and I sort of joked, I say to go above 14th Street. I need a visa.

But -- so I went to talk to him, and that's when he told me that he was getting in trouble for being with girls that were too young. He said he was stupid, but he wanted me to hear it from him as opposed to hearing it on the news or something. And that's when I first found out in 2006.

BURNETT: All right. And the reason that this is so important is trying to understand what -- what the people around Epstein would have known separate from what any of them might have also been doing, right? So I guess the question here, then, Mark, is, did you have any suspicions before Jeffreys confession to you that he was involved with underage girls? EPSTEIN: No, because I rarely saw him. So, I didn't know what he was

involved with. You know, we had different lives. He had his friends, and I had my friends.

We traveled in two separate circles, in a sense, a few people we knew together. But, you know, he was more in the financial community uptown. I was more involved with the arts community downtown. So, we had two separate lives, but we were brothers. We always stayed in touch, you know?

But the thing is, Erin, you know, the thing with the charges against him, you know, that's really not my concern at this point in time. Jeffrey is dead. So, you know, I'm not the prosecutor. I'm not his defense attorney.

I'm more concerned with the circumstances around what I now consider his murder.

BURNETT: Right.

EPSTEIN: So that's unsolved.

BURNETT: So, I want to ask you that, okay? Because the Department of Justice issued that memo earlier this month, right? It's at the core of a lot of this that reads in part, and I quote, Mark, after a thorough investigation, FBI investigators concluded that Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide in his cell.

Now, you say you were the one called to identify his body. You had conversations at that time, and you do not accept this finding.

EPSTEIN: No, I don't, because what they don't mention in the report and no one says is that, you know, after Jeffrey died the next day, I had to go to, you know, number one to identify his body because I'm the next of kin. There's only fair. And they did the autopsy then.

And Dr. Roman, who was the city pathologist, there was her autopsy. And Dr. Baden as there on my behalf because I had the right to have -- you know, family has a right to have their own pathologist there.

And they did the autopsy, and they came out of the autopsy a couple hours later, and they both concurred that they could not call this a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide. They were very clear about that.

BURNETT: All right. Mark, thank you so much.

EPSTEIN: You're welcome. Have a good day.

BURNETT: All right. And next, all eyes on Epstein's former girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell. Look at this video here. That's her. Weve just gotten this video. And what will she tell the deputy attorney general when they meet?

And for Maxwell, is really all of this now about getting a pardon from Trump. And Obama fighting back big time after Trump accuses him of treason. And a whole new side of the former president on display.

And Ozzy Osbourne, the rock-star-turned-reality-star, dead at 76.

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:19:28]

BURNETT: Breaking news, Trump's deputy attorney general announcing he plans to meet soon with Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein's former girlfriend, who was sentenced to 20 years in federal prison for conspiring with Jeffrey Epstein to sexually abuse minor girls.

Here's how Trump responded to his DOJ's announcement about reaching out to Maxwell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't know about it, but I think it's something that would be -- sounds appropriate to do. I didn't know that they were going to do it. I don't really follow that too much. It's sort of a witch hunt, just a continuation of the witch hunt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:20:02]

BURNETT: I mean, just to be clear, when the word witch hunt is used, right, underage girls were abused, sexually assaulted.

Ghislaine Maxwell was sentenced to 20 years in prison for helping Epstein groom and sexually abused underage girls. So getting answers on what happened and why is not a witch hunt.

Ghislaine Maxwell is right now held at a prison in Tallahassee, Florida. You can see her in this video exercising in the prison yard. Now, this is earlier this month. So, this is very recent here.

And she is said to be behind bars until 2037. On the other side of that, barbed wire, 2037 at that time, Ghislaine Maxwell will be 75 years old.

Now that leads to crucial questions about her motivations, right. And whether a meeting with her would actually produce any new information. Maxwell is currently fighting to get her conviction overturned. A few months ago, she asked the Supreme Court to hear her case.

Tonight, a source tells CNN that Maxwell will oppose the unsealing of grand jury materials, which Attorney General Pam Bondi had requested to be released at Trump's direction amid the fallout over his administration's handling of the Epstein files.

Kristen Holmes is OUTFRONT live at the White House here. And, Kristen, what are your sources telling you about this move by the

Trump DOJ now to reach out to Maxwell's attorney?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, a lot of what I'm hearing is that this is very late. Look, they want this to happen. They believe that this should happen. But there are questions as to why it hasn't already happened.

Laura Loomer spoke to one of our colleagues earlier today and said, how could they release the memo without ever having sat down with Maxwell? And that's a sentiment that I've heard from a number of people across the board. These are some of his most ardent supporters who just don't believe that the White House and the department of justice in particular, handled this rollout, particularly well.

And now there are questions as to what's going to happen next. You said, as you noted, that Ghislaine Maxwell. We've learned that she is going to oppose the release or at least a part of this grand jury testimony. That was something that I had heard from a number of people close to President Trump, that they really didn't think that was going to shed that much light on what the information they were trying to get.

You hear the same kind of rhetoric from these Republicans and these supporters of Trump's, which is they want to hold the elite accountable. They think that they were heinous crimes committed by wealthy men. In most cases. And they want those people to be named.

Now, we also know there's a lot of sensitive information in the background of all of this. There are accusations that were never proven. So, no one is under the impression that the entire file, or at least no one I've spoken to, should be released without any kind of redactions. There are also victims in there who whose information would not be public, but what they are saying is that one, they think this is still being handled badly, and two, they don't really know why it took the Justice Department so long to get here.

And one part of all of this, Erin, that really has become so interesting, is what you're seeing from Trump's allies on Capitol Hill. It's not just these kind of people on social media. It's also on the Hill. There is now a push we saw earlier today, a Republican led effort to subpoena Maxwell, passed through committee.

And you're seeing the Republicans now coming out and pushing against president Trump. And they just opened up an event here at the White House at the dinner with some of these lawmakers. We're not sure who is there, but, of course, we'll be keeping an eye on it to see if he addresses this at all.

BURNETT: Yeah, absolutely. All right, Kristen, thank you so much. Kristen, at the White House.

And now, Julie K. Brown is with us, investigative journalist for "The Miami Herald", widely considered, Julie, to be the reporter who took down Jeffrey Epstein, who exposed all of this. Her investigation brought Epstein's case back into the national spotlight and led to his re-arrest in 2019. And she is the author of the book perversion of justice the Jeffrey Epstein story.

And also with me, Ryan Goodman, of course, OUTFRONT legal analyst.

So, Julie, as we are seeing all of this play out and now this conversation about Ghislaine Maxwell, possibly testifying and coming forward. Now you know the case better than anyone. How much do you think Maxwell could have to say at this point?

JULIE K. BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, MIAMI HERALD: Well, Maxwell was very involved with what Epstein was doing. The crimes that Epstein was committing against young girls. In fact, she's really was the mastermind behind the entire pyramid scheme that he initiated in Palm Beach here in Florida. She was the one that went to the spas and recruited a number of these underage girls. And once they got their foothold into one of the Palm Beach high schools, they then turned all the girls who were -- who they had, you know, made contact with into recruiters themselves.

So, she was the mastermind behind all this. And in a lot of victims' eyes, and this was said publicly at the time of her trial, she in some ways was -- the victims felt that she in some ways was almost as bad, if not worse, than Epstein, because what she did was she got the girls to feel safe, and she was a nurturing figure in their lives, assuring them that she would help them with their careers or that this wealthy man was going to help them with their college.

[19:25:26]

And so, in some ways, she was the one that that sort of masterminded this whole thing.

BURNETT: All right. Ryan, so just to understand where this goes with Julie's talking about how important Maxwell was, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche said he's reached out to Maxwell's attorney and plans to meet with the attorney. Okay.

But here's an important thing about this. This is -- they're friends. He's friends with Maxwell's attorney appearing on his podcast more than once and praising him. I mean, let's play a clip here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: I know a lot of people that have worked with you, and I know a lot of people who know you very well. I now consider you a friend and someone who I know pretty well. You are by far the best out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Okay, so that mutual admiration society. I'm playing that to just ask a very important question. One, does that closeness make a difference? And two, Ghislaine Maxwell is serving 20 years in federal prison. So really, the only person who could who could get her out of prison is Donald Trump. Okay, so what -- what testimony would she really give? RYAN GOODMAN, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL AT DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE: I think

that's the million dollar question, because there's every reason to think that she would give false testimony. She has no fear of giving false testimony because otherwise she's going to be spending until she's 75 years old, in jail, in prison. And the only other choice is if she maybe gives the kind of testimony that she thinks the White House wants to hear, then she maybe can get off. And I think that's one issue.

And then the optics are not good, that Mr. Blanche himself is a former criminal defendant, lawyer for President Trump, the chumminess of that relationship and then the lawyer for miss Maxwell says today on social media that, quote, we're grateful to president Trump for his commitment to uncovering the truth in this case, end quote, which also is a little bit too much because I think the American public is already seen that president Trump has not seemed to be committed to that.

BURNETT: Yeah. You know, Julie, what's your thought when you hear all that, that relationship between the lawyers and of course, the reality that the person that holds the ticket to freedom for Ghislaine Maxwell is Donald Trump.

BROWN: Well, listen, I can only say what I hear from the victims and their attorneys and that is that they are very concerned that this is going to be another sweetheart deal in the making. You know, 2.0, and that would be a travesty because that's what got us to this place to begin with.

So, you know, this is something that they shouldn't have even announced, quite frankly, if they wanted to talk to her, why didn't they just go talk to her? I it reminds me of what Bondi did with the with the files to begin with, doing this lavish announcement and then not coming following through it to me, it would have made better sense that they just go down and talk to her and just feel it out and then say what you're going to do.

So, it seems to me that this is a, you know, and that there's some concern that this might be a stunt, quite frankly.

BURNETT: Yeah. I mean, there -- it -- certainly you sometimes you look at it and the definition of the word is.

Julie, I just spoke with Jeffrey Epstein's brother Mark earlier in the show, and he told me, as others have, who knew them in different contexts and different times. He said Trump and Epstein were very close. They were good friends. And he told a specific story that he says proves that. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EPSTEIN: When we were on the plane a week or two later, Jeffrey asked Donald the same question. I know he did that for my benefit so that I could hear Donald say it. And Jeffrey asked him, how come you sleep with so many married women? And Donald said, because it's so wrong. That's not the kind of question you ask a casual acquaintance. You

know, how come you slept with so many married women? Thats a question you ask a good friend that you can get away with asking those kind of questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Julie, do you think there's still a lot to be learned about the relationship between Trump and Epstein?

BROWN: Well, there certainly is a lot we don't know. There are questions that have been asked over the years that still haven't been answered. So I think that with all the publicity this is getting all over again, I'm hopeful that well probably get to the truth of exactly how close they were, which, you know, there's no evidence that he was involved in the president or former, you know, when he before he became president, was involved in that aspect of Jeffrey Epstein's life. But they were friends.

BURNETT: Right. They were friends. They were very good friends. But, Ryan, as she points out, Trump has never been charged or implicated in any way in any of this.

[19:30:06]

Do you think that we will get answers to all the questions?

GOODMAN: I think the answers lie in the Epstein files that are in the possession of the justice department, and that's the place to go. The files, as people are saying today, have no incentive to lie. People have incentives to lie. And I think that's where more of the truth can come out. And I think that's what also a lot of the victims are asking for.

BURNETT: Is whether we get those full files, what's redacted, what isn't -- all of that.

All right. Thank you both so very much. I appreciate it.

And next, Obama fighting back tonight, a rare and forceful rebuke of what he is calling Trump's bizarre Oval Office claims.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They caught President Obama absolutely cold.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: And Coca-Cola making Trump happy tonight, launching a Coke with cane sugar in the United States. Trump says that it's better, but is it better for you?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:35:08] BURNETT: Tonight. Obama fighting back. The former president calling out President Trump in a way that we have not seen before, slamming what he calls the, quote, bizarre and, quote, ridiculous allegations Trump made against him in the Oval Office just hours ago.

So, here's some of what Trump said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The witch hunt that you should be talking about is they caught President Obama absolutely cold, Tulsi Gabbard. What they did to this country in 2016, starting in 2016, but going up all the way, going up to 2020 and the election, they tried to rig the election.

We found absolute -- this isn't like evidence or -- this is like proof, irrefutable proof that Obama was seditious, that Obama led -- was trying to lead a coup.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: All right. Trying to lead a coup.

Now, usually anyone associated with Obama just ignores all that. They don't respond. But that is not what happened this time.

Obamas spokesperson responded in part, and I quote, out of respect for the office of the presidency, our office does not normally dignify the constant nonsense and misinformation flowing out of this White House with a response, but these claims are outrageous enough to merit one. These bizarre allegations are ridiculous, and a weak attempt at distraction.

Jamal Simmons is OUTFRONT now, and the former Republican governor of Minnesota, Tim Pawlenty.

All right, I appreciate both of you very much.

So, Jamal, look, this is a change to come from team Obama. It's a spokesperson, okay? But it's a change. And to come out and to speak like that, bizarre allegations are ridiculous. And a weak attempt at distraction.

Now, Trump said that Obama was trying to stage a coup. So that's what caused this.

But what do you think? How significant of a departure is this for, for Obama to actually say, okay, we're going to respond.

JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, it's pretty rich that the man who was sort of affiliated with the January 6th insurrection at the Capitol is the one accusing people of trying to stage a coup. Obama, about a, you know, a few days ago came out and went after Democrats and said, you know, it's time for Democrats to be, you know, to speak up and to, you know, not do so much navel gazing. You know, he did that at a fundraiser. And so, I think a lot of Democrats said, well, a lot of people are

speaking up. They're marching, they're stepping up. And where are you at, President Obama? And so now I think we see President Obama stepping up, too. And so, he's stepping up and saying something to the American public.

He refuses to sit back and allow Donald Trump to accuse him of leading a coup. And remember, it wasn't just what he said. Trump said in the Oval Office. President Trump said he also released a video on his social media network showing Barack Obama being arrested in the Oval Office.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: It was an A.I. generated video, right? Yeah, yeah. And maybe that was part of what prompted the actual response here. It is. It is -- it is a change, all right. And its a change coming from the former president. So, it matters in that respect.

And, Governor Pawlenty, Speaker Johnson is now saying that he would not be opposed to subpoenaing Obama to testify before Congress over these allegations. Here he.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We have no concern about that. If it's uncomfortable for him, he shouldn't have been involved in overseeing this, which is what it appears to us has happened. There's a lot of allegations on the table. Our job is to go and follow each of those trails and to find out the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Obviously, that's coming in the context of the -- the changing of the topic going on in Washington, especially with Johnson away from Epstein. But, Governor, I'm curious as to whether you think Obama now taking a sharper tone and stepping up as opposed to being quiet and trying to take the high road, is it too little, too late, or does it matter for Democrats?

TIM PAWLENTY (R), FORMER MINNESOTA GOVERNOR: Well, of course, former governors, former presidents always try to be a little measured as to when and how they respond to their successors. President Obama has been pretty muted in that regard, with a few exceptions. But in this case, President Trump called him out directly. And President Obama answered the bell and swung back.

Erin, like you, I read the Mueller report. It basically concluded that the Russians did try to interfere with the election, but there was no actual proof of coordination in that regard. I'm not aware, nor have I seen any public reporting, that President Obama somehow ordered something inappropriate relative to that investigation.

If Tulsi Gabbard or the president, President Trump, has that kind of evidence, then they should bring it forward. Otherwise, this is -- seems like puffery. BURNETT: Right. Well, absolutely. That and certainly not helpful in the political climate we're in this country.

But Jamal, Obama fighting back and I and I hear the governor saying, look, this was specific and something specific perhaps merited a response. And maybe we don't read into it an overall change. But there are so many in the Democratic Party saying, come on, where is the leadership? Who is going to be the standard bearer of that party.

[19:40:01]

And someone who has certainly seems to be trying to take that on in testing different ways, is Gavin Newsom from California. Constantly going after Trump after for a while attacking the other way to say, well, I'm going to talk to Bannon, I'm going to talk to all these people. I'm going to figure it out.

But now, he's posting things about Epstein and Trump, and he just said this about Trump and his immigration policies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: It's a weakness masquerading as strength. Thats what I don't like about this son of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I don't. And forgive me, I know he's the president of the United States, forgive me. I didn't -- you know, I -- yeah. He calls me newscum, you know, come on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: So what do you think of that, Jamal?

SIMMONS: Well, I think he's conflicted about how hard to go to use profanity. But listen, I think Gavin Newsom is the one Democrat I hear the most about from people who don't work in Washington and don't work in politics.

And the reason why I think I hear about Gavin Newsom is because he's out there and really taking on Trump in a really forceful way. He'll go anywhere, Fox News or any other channel, and he'll do anything to kind of make his case.

And I think a lot of Democrats are looking for somebody. It's not really about policy, but somebody who's got the attitudinal toughness who will take on Trump. We'll see how that works out. But what we have seen is in California, his poll numbers have gone up from 38 percent to about 56 percent, because I think voters like to see him taking on Trump and not just sitting back and trying to find a middle road.

BURNETT: Do you think Gavin Newsom has it right, Governor?

PAWLENTY: I think Governor Newsom is an energetic and gifted communicator, but his policies suck. I mean, can you imagine him running in Pennsylvania and Ohio and Wisconsin and places that are going to decide the next presidential -- presidential election? He's got a long history of ultra left policies in California and in San Francisco. And I just don't see how that's going to sell nationally, notwithstanding his gifted oratory skills.

BURNETT: Gifted oratory skills of which he has, I don't know if calling someone a son of a, you know, what might go in that category, but he does have those skills, whether you count that or not.

SIMMONS: Erin, are we in -- are we in the policy era? I just don't know that we're in the policy era anymore with Donald Trump. I think we've moved to a different phase of the game. And I think this phase of the game, frankly, is not that nice.

BURNETT: No. Well, that's --

PAWLENTY: Although, if you look at -- look at why Trump -- Erin, when you look at why Trump won the last election, besides his oversize personality -- inflation, immigration, crime, wokeness run amok, those are policies.

BURNETT: Right. That fed -- that fed into the personality.

All right. Thank you both. I appreciate it and see you both soon.

SIMMONS: Thank you.

PAWLENTY: Thank you.

BURNETT: Okay. And next, Coca Cola making a big move inspired by Trump replacing corn sugar -- corn syrup, I'm sorry. Corn syrup with cane sugar. So what's the difference?

And Ozzy Osbourne, dead at 76. Heavy metal icon redefining rock history from Black Sabbath to reality TV to the infamous bat incident.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OZZY OSBOURNE, HEAVY METAL ICON: Believe me, if I had known it was a real bat, I would never have bitten into it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:47:14]

BURNETT: Tonight, Trump's new Coke. So, Coca-Cola confirms that it will begin using real cane sugar in the United States starting this fall, following pressure from President Trump. Now, the company did stop short of saying it will replace the traditional version, which contains high fructose corn syrup. So, this may be more of just another option.

But the whole move comes after Trump said he personally urged the beverage giant to make the switch, calling it part of his new campaign. The campaign to make America healthy again.

So, all right, let's just take a closer look at what this actually means. Dr. Jonathan Reiner is with us, cardiologist, who's treated the long term effects of sugar for decades.

Dr. Reiner, all right, so just to illustrate for people what we're really talking about, okay? Twenty ounce bottle of Coke, like this one in this bottle, 65 grams of corn syrup. That's 16-1/2 teaspoons.

So, what does that mean? Well, we got it here. The same amount of sugar corn syrup, right, as -- are you ready -- for glazed donuts, 2.4 to be exact. Snickers bars and five large chocolate chip cookies. Five. It says five. I've got five here. Maybe it's four. Okay, it's a lot.

And just take a can of Coke, which is a 12 ounce, a 12 ounce can right here. I'm just looking at, Dr. Reiner. That's 39 grams of corn syrup. Lucky Charms has 11 or 12 grams of sugar. So, if you do the math, that's three servings. More than three servings of Lucky Charms.

So, the question is right. If you replace this, right. So, you could have the four donuts, you could have the Snickers, you could have the chocolate chips. Right? You could have all these things will cane sugar somehow make this better? If you did cane sugar as opposed to corn syrup?

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: No. It won't. So, let's break this down.

So high fructose corn syrup is corn syrup, which has been changed via enzymatic reactions to have more fructose in it. You know, playing a corn syrup is 100 percent glucose. And then they change it. And the kind of high fructose corn syrup that's in coke is 55 percent fructose and 45 percent glucose.

Cane sugar, or sucrose is basically equal parts 50/50. So, the big difference between high fructose corn syrup and cane sugar is that high fructose corn syrup is 55 percent fructose, whereas cane sugar is 50 percent. It's basically -- it's basically the same. And it's sugar.

And if the administration wants to make America healthy again, whatever that means, then I would have advised the public to drink less soda, not drink full cane, you know, cane sugar soda because -- it might taste better, I don't know.

[19:50:08]

But it's not more healthy for you now.

BURNETT: All right. So let me just, you know, I said "and", and I sort of said "or". So I just want to make sure I'm clear here. I said that you would have the donuts, the Snickers and the cookies. Its actually one the donuts or the Snickers or the cookies. Just -- but it's still absolutely disgusting because I'm saying, okay, so I could have one Coke, right? Or I could have all four of these donuts.

So if I'm consuming the amount of sugar and all four of these donuts in one Coke, in one Coke, I mean, it's absolutely disgusting to actually think about it in this way. How much damage does a single drink actually do, Doctor? REINER: Well, it's not a single drink. It's the cumulative effects.

And, you know, if you look at obesity in this country, because one of the major issues with having so much sugar in your diet, you know, besides increasing your risk of diabetes, is obesity. And, you know, 40 percent of adults in this country are obese, 20 percent of kids are obese. And that's because there are so much sugar, whether it comes from cane sugar or high fructose corn syrup, there is so much sugar in our -- in our diets. And we have to find a way to sort of move away from that.

And that would have really tangible, tangible effects. You know, obesity is a big factor in heart disease in this country, and hypertension and diabetes and these kinds of foods really impact that.

But changing from high fructose corn syrup to cane sugar or, you know, taking red dye number 40 out of out of Fruit Loops isn't really going to make America healthy again.

BURNETT: So I guess it's a better pick your poison. Although you did just after I touched all these donuts, and I'm feeling a little -- you know, I want to eat them. I'm going to refrain from licking my fingers, which was my instinct after this segment.

REINER: Maybe just one, just one.

BURNETT: Maybe just one.

All right. Thank you so much, Dr. Reiner.

REINER: My pleasure.

BURNETT: And next, remembering the Black Sabbath frontman Ozzy Osbourne, who died at 76.

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:56:14]

BURNETT: The breaking news, Ozzy Osbourne, the rock star turned reality star, has died. He was 76 years old. The legendary lead singer of Black Sabbath and godfather of heavy metal, dying just weeks after playing his final concert, still performing. No cause of death was given.

Now, Osbourne preferred the title prince of darkness. He was the voice behind instantly recognizable songs like these.

(MUSIC)

BURNETT: He was as known, though for his music as he was for his stage antics. Perhaps one of the most infamous biting the head off of a live bat, which he talked about with Larry King telling him he wished he had not done it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OSBOURNE: Believe me, if I hadn't known it was a real battle, I would never have bitten into it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Well, Osbourne also found a second career, and this was later in life when he became a reality television star on the popular show "The Osbournes".

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

BURNETT: Elizabeth Wagmeister is OUTFRONT at Osbourne's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

And, Elizabeth, I guess let's start with that reality show, because that is what made Ozzy Osbourne a household name, right? To many who may not have been exposed to heavy metal in the prince of darkness, I mean, just how big of a cultural impact did the show have?

ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: It had a huge cultural impact, Erin. And before I get into that, I just quickly want to show you around me. We are at Ozzy Osbourne, star on the Walk of Fame. There are fans here playing his music. They've put down memorabilia and flowers on his star, as you see there.

I just saw one fan come and kiss the ground where his star is. So, a true icon, a music legend lost today. But back to that reality show, Erin, the cultural impact was huge at the time. When it premiered in 2002, it was the highest rated show that MTV had ever had.

Now, as you said, Ozzy Osbourne was known as the eccentric hard rocker. He bit off the head of a bat. What this show did, is it really humanized him. It turned him into the funny guy and the doting father, the family man, and he and his family were really pioneers in the genre. Remember, this was before the Kardashians, before Trump was on "The Apprentice".

He actually spoke to Larry King about the impact of that show, Erin, in 2003. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OSBOURNE: I never realized the power of TV. I mean, rock and roll is this big TV's, this big.

LARRY KING, FORMER CNN HOST: You ain't kidding.

OSBOURNE: And so, I was in Boston and this woman, very conservative woman, stops me and she goes, what are you doing in Boston? I'm doing a show. She goes, what kind of a show? And I go, rock and roll show. She goes, oh, you do that as well?

I go, mama, I won't even do anything for 36 years because you have. Because people, people know me just primarily from the show, you know? (END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Range is unbelievable, Elizabeth. So, it's such an impact, music and television. What will his legacy be?

WAGMEISTER: You know, I think his legacy will be that there was only one Ozzy Osbourne. No one was like him.

Now we know he was battling a series of health issues. In 2020, he revealed his Parkinson's disease diagnosis. In 2023, Erin, he told "Rolling Stone" that he just wanted to perform one last time.

This is what he had to say, quote, "If I can't continue doing shows on a regular basis, I just want to be well enough to do one show where I can say, hi, guys, thanks so much for my life. That is what I am working towards and if I could drop down dead at the end of it, I'll die a happy man."

And as you said, Erin, he was able to do just that. He just performed in his final weeks.

BURNETT: Amazing. Elizabeth, thank you so much.

And thanks so much to all of you.

"AC360" starts now.