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Erin Burnett Outfront
Bondi Briefed Trump That His Name Is In Epstein Files; Epstein On Trump: "Closest Friend"; Call For Powell To Resign; Families Confront Idaho Killer At Emotional Sentencing. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired July 23, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:26]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
Breaking news, the attorney general told President Trump his name was in the Epstein files multiple times. Is that why Trump and his administration are now saying there's nothing to see here?
Plus, Epstein, in his own words, you'll hear Jeffrey Epstein talking about how Trump was his closest friend. The book author, who says he has 100 hours of Epstein talking on tape, is our guest tonight with audio.
And a world-renowned economist says Fed Chairman Jerome Powell should resign, but not for the reasons you may think. The economist who stunned the world with his statement is our guest.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
And OUTFRONT tonight, we begin with the breaking news. President Trump's name is in the Epstein files multiple times. And he was told that by the attorney general, Pam Bondi, in a briefing in May.
Now being mentioned in the files, of course, is not an indication of specific legal wrongdoing. According to "The Wall Street Journal", which first reported this story.
But they say that Bondi and her deputy, quote, told the president at the meeting that the files contained what officials felt was unverified hearsay about many people, including Trump, who had socialized with Epstein in the past. Some of the officials said. One of the officials familiar with the documents said they contain hundreds of other names.
Now, this is important because this conversation, according to sources to "The Journal", took place in May. All right. May is not now. Now is July, but last week in July, Trump was asked if he'd spoken to Bondi about the files. And I want to play the exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Did the attorney general brief you on the DOJ and FBI review, the findings of that review? Did the attorney general brief you on that?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On what? On the --
REPORTER: On the -- on the DOJ and FBI review --
TRUMP: On what? On what subject?
REPORTER: Epstein, on Epstein.
TRUMP: Okay.
REPORTER: The review of the files. Did Attorney General Pam Bondi brief you on that?
TRUMP: Very, very quick briefing.
REPORTER: Did she tell you -- what did she tell you about the review? And specifically, did she tell you at all that your name appeared in the files -- in the files?
TRUMP: No, no, she's -- she's given us just a very quick briefing. And in terms of the credibility of the different things that they've seen, and I would say that, you know, these files were made up by Comey. They were made up by Obama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. So, you heard what Trump said. That was July 15th, two months after the briefing from Bondi. He specifically asked, did she tell you at all that your name appeared in the files? Trump says, no, no.
All right. Well, that would be a lie if he's saying that he was not told his name specifically appeared in the files. So, this significant development may also explain why Trump and his allies have totally changed their tune when it comes to releasing everything related to the Epstein case.
Here's Donald Trump in June of 2024.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERVIEWER: Would you declassify the Epstein files?
TRUMP: Yeah, yeah, I would. I'd be inclined to do the Epstein -- I'd have no problem with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. He said he'd have no problem with it.
Now, here is Trump's vice president, Vance, in October 2024.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Seriously, we need to release the Epstein list. That -- that is an important thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And as for Pam Bondi herself, here she is talking about Epstein and the case in January of 2024.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Jeffrey Epstein is dead and Ghislaine Maxwell is in prison for 20 years where she belongs. And if people in that report are still fighting to keep their names private, Sean, they have no legal basis to do so unless they're a child of victim or a cooperating defendant by some chance against some potential case against Ghislaine Maxwell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So, Trump's name wouldn't fit any of those categories.
Here's Kash Patel before he was FBI director. So, this is in 2023.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are. We have an election coming up and we need to adjudicate this matter at the polls.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. So that's consistent. That's a lot of people over a lot of time. And they're all saying the same things. But since May when the Bondi briefing "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting on when she briefed Trump that his name was in there, since that took place, things have changed.
Here's what Trump is saying now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I call it the Epstein hoax, takes a lot of time and effort.
[19:05:00]
I don't understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody. It's pretty boring stuff. It's sordid, but it's boring. And I don't understand why it keeps going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So tonight, the questions are growing much louder when it comes to the relationship between Epstein and Trump, giving audio like this, which is Epstein in 2017, a potentially whole new meaning.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MICHAEL WOLFF, PODCAST HOST: So how do you know this? JEFFREY EPSTEIN: I was Donald's closest friend for 10 years.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BURNETT: You heard him say I was Donalds closest friend for ten years. Well, we're going to have a lot more of Epstein on tape coming up from the journalist who says he has 100 hours of Epstein talking.
But the point that Epstein was making right there, when you just heard him say, I was Donalds closest friend for ten years, its not just his word on that, right? It has been echoed by many. And on this show, frankly, by several guests over the past week or so, including an Epstein accuser, an ex-girlfriend of Epstein, and a close Trump business associate.
Here's what they've told us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were best friends.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were best friends.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was his best friend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Jeff Zeleny is OUTFRONT live outside the White House.
And, you know, Jeff, there are many who thought maybe this story had gone away. And yet here we are. The questions about Trump and Epstein are growing, and they are growing louder and louder every day, including tonight.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Erin, they are. And they're growing more persistent and perhaps even more complicated in terms of answering them.
Look, the White House spent all day long trying to deflect and change the subject with a retribution campaign, which has become somewhat familiar. But here we are at the end of the day, learning this new information about a meeting that happened in May, as you said, and the attorney general and her deputy attorney general, who, of course, is the president's former lawyer, Todd Blanche. They informed the president, we were told that his name appeared several times in the files.
Now, it does not have the context in which that might have occurred. We do not know what that means. Of course, there were many names in the files. We know they had a relationship, but we do not know the extent of the president and Epstein's relationship, or perhaps why his name was in the file.
So, this is what the White House has not yet answered. But look, it's the contradiction here that is so interesting because it was just a less than two weeks ago when the president was asked about this briefing and he tried to move on and he said, no, he did not learn his name was in the files.
Well, this is where any sort of controversy as it becomes potentially a scandal in Washington, gets messy because there is a contradiction here. The White House is now saying tonight there is nothing surprising about this at all. Of course, he was briefed on this. But again, it's that contradiction that is so interesting.
So, the president, of course, will be asked about this in the coming days, and we will see what he says. But, Erin, interestingly, the House Oversight Committee voted before leaving town to issue a subpoena on these.
So, this does not seem to be going away. But in the words of one White House official who is trying to make it go away, they say we are not disputing his name is in the files. But this official says we are disputing that the president did anything wrong -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much, at the White House.
And OUTFRONT now, Barry Levine, the former editor of "The National Enquirer" and the author of "The Spider: Inside the Criminal Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell".
Also here tonight, Tara Palmeri. She has investigated the Epstein case extensively over years.
And are OUTFRONT legal expert Ryan Goodman.
So, so appreciate all of you.
Barry and Tara, you have done such extensive reporting on this over so many years. So, Barry, you just have a brand-new op-ed in "The New York Times". I want to start with that.
BARRY LEVINE, AUTHOR, "THE SPIDER: INSIDE THE CRIMINAL WEB OF JEFFREY EPSTEIN & GHISLAINE MAXWELL": Sure.
BURNETT: You lay out the unanswered questions that we have right now as you see them. One of them, you say, are there references to Mr. Trump and the files that add to our knowledge of his relationship with Mr. Epstein?
Now that that presumes, obviously, the way the way you wrote that, which is that you knew there would be references, it's whether they would add to our understanding of the relationship between Trump and Epstein. So how significant are these new developments in trying to answer that question?
LEVINE: Well, Erin, I think that the soap opera became a whole lot more interesting today with this disclosure. You know, the fact is, he's the president and even before the Epstein files are released in total, which they should be, I think we should be able to see every, each and every reference to the fact that the sitting president is in this file and its been acknowledged today. And these references may be incidental. They may have nothing to do with any wrongdoing. When I was researching my book right off the bat, the Palm Beach police, back in their original case in 2005, they found phone messages at Jeffrey Epstein's mansion in palm beach, Florida, and there were phone messages from Donald Trump.
[19:10:04]
Now, it doesn't mean that there was any wrongdoing, but he is -- he was a friend for 15 years and he was connected to Jeffrey Epstein. And so, of course, there's going to be references. The big question, of course, is, is there anything that is, you know, more nefarious in the sense of any, any victim reports?
We know Maria Farmer, who you had on your show the other day, said that she told the FBI twice back in the '90s, and then later in 2019 that Donald Trump should be looked into, along with others. So --
BURNETT: Yes, she did say that. And interesting after the briefing, you know, when he was asked, you know, was your -- did you -- did she tell your name was in the files, Tara. And he said, no, no.
He continued to say, I would say, you know, these files were made up by Comey. They were made up by Obama. Now, at that point, we now know that he did know his name was in the files.
TARA PALMERI, INDEPENDENT REPORTER ON SUBSTACK COVERING EPSTEIN CASE: Right.
BURNETT: So, whatever he thought might have been there, he's implying was made up. So I don't know what that means. But I do know that in your covering the Epstein case for years, as you have, Tara, you have spoken to victims regularly. You have more of a sense than anybody else, probably you and Barry of what is in these files.
So when it comes to the victims and when it comes to the people who were present participating, whatever role they may have played, the men who are in these files, how many names are in here?
PALMERI: I mean, there are about a thousand victims.
BURNETT: Thousand victims.
PALMERI: Many of them recount the men that were around, some of them that abused them, and some of them that were just witnesses to the abuse that could help corroborate their stories.
And a lot of them, I mean, Virginia Giuffre, who I was in touch with before she died, before she took her life, I mean, she recalled meeting Donald Trump. He never assaulted her, but she recalled meeting him and she put him on the witness list. And that's why Brad Edwards, her lawyer, subpoenaed him. And when she and he subpoenaed him to ask him about their relationship.
BURNETT: Right. That he would have seen something, perhaps is what she's saying, not that he did something. PALMERI: Right. And he spoke about their friendship and that's
something that he was not afraid of at the time. And I think it's undeniable that they had a friendship. There's no doubt about that. The question is, what is the context in which he is presented in these files?
The White House right now, when I reached out to them, they said, well, you know, the flight logs, the little black book where he's mentioned 14 times and including for numbers for Ivanka and Melania.
No, no, no, no, what -- where else? How else? We need to know. Is that it? And I have not -- I've yet to get a yes or no question, and I have yet to hear -- I've yet to read a yes or no question. Is there more?
And this idea of like, nefarious hearsay, what are you doing to find out that its nefarious hearsay? Are you doing any investigations? Are you trying to corroborate that evidence, or are you just disregarding it because it is the testimony of a child or a woman?
BURNETT: Right, right. And because it's about him. So therefore, it's nefarious hearsay. I mean, that's the implication that that that is in there when they say its Obama and Comey making it up.
Let me play again, Ryan, what Trump said when he denied being told that he was in it after he had been told he's in the files. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What did she tell you about the review? And specifically, did she tell you at all that your name appeared in the files -- in the files?
TRUMP: No, no, she's -- she's given us just a very quick briefing. And in terms of the credibility of the different things that they've seen, and I would say that, you know, these files were made up by Comey. They were made up by Obama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So, he clearly once said, did you find out your name was in the files? He said, no, no. Right? He's appearing to deny that. And then he says the files are made up.
So, what does the apparent lie say to you?
RYAN GOODMAN, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL AT DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE: It says a couple of things. I think it says that what's in those files might be, at a minimum, not flattering to the president. So, it might mean that he was at least a witness.
And one of the big questions, a moral question, not necessarily a legal one, is for people who knew Jeffrey Epstein that well, there's a lot of allegations that if you knew him that well, if you were in that mansion, you knew what was going on and you did nothing to stop it.
And that's one issue that I think it presents itself. So why is he denying something that's obviously an easily proven to be false?
It also goes to the chronology so that he's -- it looked as though everybody was barreling ahead in his administration to release these files. He's then informed by the attorney general, the deputy attorney general, that he's in there.
BURNETT: Which you would think he would have assumed anyway, but yeah.
GOODMAN: You would think that. So it's actually what -- what is he told he is in there about because he had to have been in there. I mean, they had this friendship. He's on the plane logs. He's in the black book.
BURNETT: So was he given the context?
GOODMAN: So was he given some context. And in that context, that's where the reversal comes in. And suddenly the DOJ and FBI say, we'll make no more public disclosures whatsoever.
BURNETT: So, Barry, if the files do get released and whether, you know, whether on purpose some of it leaked, however they come out, how much bigger does this get?
LEVINE: Well, of course, it's going to be what names we hear. I'm surprised at this point that we haven't seen a whistleblower, you know, from the FBI or from another intelligence agency who might have had their hands on -- on the files at some point, leak something out.
[19:15:09]
It is interesting that we haven't received anything. But, you know, we have to get to the actual documents.
BURNETT: And what about Ghislaine Maxwell, Tara? Because now it's like, okay, she's been subpoenaed by a House Oversight Chair, as Jeff was just reporting, but obviously, and, you know, Comer said there's no pardon in the works.
Obviously, the only person that can get her out of jail for a prison for her 20-year sentence is Donald Trump, which would certainly put her, you know motivations in a certain place.
You have covered her extensively. So, what happens here?
PALMERI: I mean, you can even see from the language from her lawyers. You know, we're so grateful for this conversation to Donald Trump. This is -- she's not going to speak without getting something out of it. I mean, she's a very shrewd operator. And for the victims, when they see this, when they have spent so much time, years testifying, energy of having to relive the trauma of a woman who sexually abused them as well and groomed them and used the fact that she was a woman, a very posh woman who was friends with princes and presidents to lure them into a man.
They weren't going to walk up to some 50-year-old man's home in palm beach. They needed to be brought by her to see the idea that a woman who also perjured herself, that they would be even considering her, and what she has to say is heartbreaking.
I mean, I spoke to one victim today, Annie Farmer, and she said it made her -- it made her stomach turn to hear that.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you all very much.
And we have breaking news now, the House defying Trump and voting. Tonight, they are voting to subpoena all records tied to the Epstein investigation. So, that obviously breaking here. Manu has details and how this is playing out.
And we have audiotapes of Epstein talking about his friendship with Trump that you will hear here next.
Plus, an unprecedented prison visit. Trump's deputy attorney general planning to meet with Epstein's associate Ghislaine Maxwell as soon as tomorrow. Maxwell's attorney, by the way, happens to be close friends with the deputy attorney general of the United States.
And the families of the four university of Idaho students confront the man who killed their loved ones. As we're learning new and incredibly disturbing details about how Bryan Kohberger is spending his time in jail.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:21:49]
BURNETT: Breaking news the House Oversight Subcommittee moments ago voting to subpoena the Department of Justice for all records tied to the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. The motion, passed by a vote of 8 to 2. Three Republicans voted to subpoena.
At the same time, House Republicans issuing a subpoena for Ghislaine Maxwell, the convicted coconspirator of Epstein, to sit for a deposition next month, citing the immense public interest and scrutiny surrounding her case. Of course, Ghislaine Maxwell, were she to get a pardon, would need to get one from Donald Trump.
I want to go straight to Manu Raju, who's on Capitol Hill tonight, who's been breaking so much of this news tonight.
And, Manu, this move coming from the subcommittee, Republicans, there voting to have this subpoena. It's hugely significant. It is a defiance of the president.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. And it's been a huge distraction for Republican leaders as the House is now limping to recess, going on break until after September, after we've seen the agenda completely paralyzed this week because Democrats have exploited these Republican divisions, have pushed for votes on the Epstein matter, and Republicans who do want the release of this information siding with Democrats and the leadership trying to block that from going forward, which the House floor has been essentially shut down for the last several days.
And now, we're seeing that happen in the committee level as well. Today, the House subcommittee voting to subpoena all Epstein records that came after Democrats forced the issue. Three Republicans then joined on that as well.
Now, I talked to a number of Republicans who made clear to me that they believe that even though the House is going home for the August recess, that this matter will only continue to build and pressure will intensify to release all the records.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): I think the administration will put more stuff out in August. And like I said, if they don't, then I promise you there's going to be some more looking at this in the first week of September.
REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): You'd have to be -- have your head in the sand to say that this is going to go away. It's not. The public deserves it.
REP. CLAY HIGGINS (R-LA): I assure you, it will be working together in a bipartisan manner to make certain that -- that every word is perfect and reflective of what our agreements were today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And that last comment coming from Congressman Clay Higgins, who is the chairman of the subcommittee that oversaw this proceeding today that led to the subpoena of those records. Not only did that subpoena now calling for the all Epstein records, but Republicans got language in there, too, Erin, to include communications between Biden officials and Justice Department officials and to depose figures including like Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, James Comey and others related to the Epstein matter -- Erin.
BURNETT: Yeah, that's a reminder of how many -- how many people are involved in this in one way, shape or form.
Manu, thank you very much.
And as CNN is learning that the attorney general, Pam Bondi, told Trump his name is in the Epstein files, reporter Michael Wolff says he has more than 100 hours of audio tapes, 100 hours of audio tapes of his interviews with Epstein from 2014 through Epstein's arrest in 2019. That arrest, the one prior to him dying in jail.
[19:25:01]
And in those tapes first published by "The Daily Beast", Wolff says Epstein told him numerous times and numerous stories about his close friendship with Trump. Here he is, two years before his death, in an audio clip shared with us by Michael Wolff. This is in 2017.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) WOLFF: So how do you know this?
EPSTEIN: I was Donald's closest friend for 10 years.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BURNETT: Donald Trump's closest friend for ten years, according to Epstein's own words. That's back in 2017. By the way, that's what many others who knew them in many different ways and times have told us.
And Michael Wolff is OUTFRONT now. He is the author of "All or Nothing: How Trump Recaptured America".
And, Michael, I'm really grateful for your time. I'm grateful for you sharing some of this with us and with our show.
So, you estimate you talked to Epstein for more than 100 hours, which is absolutely incredible in and of itself. You did a lot of interviews all the way up to his arrest in 2019. Did you -- and in many all these conversations, did you get a chance to talk to him about whether Trump was aware of Epstein's crimes?
WOLFF: Yes, as a matter of fact -- as a matter of fact, their relationship ended in 2004, and it ended because in a dispute over real estate, there was a house in Palm Beach that Epstein thought he had was the top bidder on. He brought his friend Trump to look at the house and advise him on moving the swimming pool. Trump went around his back and overbid him and got the house.
Epstein believed that that time that Trump didn't have the money to do this, and he started to make noise that Trump was fronting for, for someone, in fact, a Russian oligarch. He believed then that in retribution, Trump went to the police, informed the police about what was going on at Epstein's house in Palm Beach. That is to say, a string, a host and never-ending line of younger women coming into his house. So that was exactly -- so Trump very precisely knew what was going on there.
I've also discussed that in several places that I have seen that Epstein's showed me pictures. He had a dozen, about a dozen snapshots, polaroids, as I recall, of Trump with women, girls around Epstein's pool in Palm Beach, two -- and three of them. I remember two were of Trump sitting with topless girls of in indeterminate age in his lap and one in which he has a stain on the front of his pants, and the girls are 3 or 4 girls, also topless, are bent over, pointing and laughing at him.
BURNETT: So, I point out, just to be clear here, of course. We don't have any evidence of wrongdoing by Trump. He's not been accused of any.
But, Michael, in light of all of this, what you say, you've seen your conversations. I want to play another clip from your interviews with Epstein about Trump, where Epstein told you that Trump would try to sleep with some of Trump's friends' wives and basically by duping them. So, Epstein, in this clip with you, is basically mimicking Trump. He's giving an example to you of something Trump would have said to him, here it is.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
EPSTEIN: And he'd say, Michael, come on, let's go to the office. And he'd say, tell me, what it's like to be married? He'd say, ah, you know, you like having sex with your wife? How often do you? He'd say, it's great.
Seriously, Michael, how often do would you have sex with her? Don't you want (INAUDIBLE). We can -- you and I go upstairs, or tomorrow, come over. There's this girl's coming in from Los Angeles, part of the whole Hawaiian Tropic Contest. So come over (INAUDIBLE).
You can have a great time. I promise you, Michael. You know, it's just me and you. We can have a great time. Be up here at 3:00. We can go upstairs. Come on. You must have had a better (EXPLETIVE DELETED) than your wife, right? He answers yes. Tell me about it.
And the wife's on the speakerphone, listening. Donald would say, you know, I may be (INAUDIBLE) I think you're really hot. And I know you think you've got Michael. It's like the end of the world, best guy on Earth. You've broken your marriage bed, he'll know. Just listen to the next part of that. There will be a ruckus, set you up.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
[19:30:01]
BURNETT: That's obviously Jeffrey Epstein's voice, you know, telling a story the way that he said Trump would have would have done it essentially, I guess, would be breaking up a marriage in a case like this. And, you know, Michael, people have long claimed Trump did this, you know, have -- have someone listening in on the phone during conversations where he gets one spouse to talk about cheating on the other.
What more did he tell you about Trump and women?
WOLFF: Well, I mean, Epstein spoke rather at length about this. I mean, this was -- and let's remember the context, context here. They were friends from the late '80s through to 2004. This was a period in American life when the models -- models were, were those in the zeitgeist, supermodels, people who wanted to be models.
And these two men, Epstein and Trump, were -- this was their obsession. They were. I mean, I think it was probably the most important part of their lives. Women and money. Money and models.
You know, they were -- they were invested in modeling agencies together. They started modeling agencies. Trump obviously had had his beauty pageants. Epstein was involved with Victoria's Secret models.
This was an abiding obsession. They spent an enormous amount of time chasing models, figuring out how to be with models, figuring out how to get models to like them. And, you know, people have said to me, well, you don't mean Donald Trump liked little girls. And in what -- I say, what I mean is that they were liked models. What was the age of models? You know, and trust me, they didn't -- they didn't -- they didn't ask for IDs.
BURNETT: You've told a lot of stories, Michael, that you say appear in your recordings with Epstein, that you haven't yet released. Epstein told you, for example, that he shared a girlfriend with Trump, actually, for quite a period of time, and that they would have competitions about who would sleep with a woman first. These are all things you say he talked to you about.
He also talked to you about his ex-girlfriend, Stacey Williams. Now, Stacey Williams actually was on this show last week. She shared a disturbing incident that she says she had with Trump. And this is in 1993. She said this, Michael.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STACEY WILLIAMS, FORMER EPSTEIN GIRLFRIEND: Donald was outside of his door and his hands were all over me. They were on my breasts. They were on my butt. They were on, you know, my hips up and down while the two of them just kept having a normal conversation.
It was a few minutes, and then we got back in the elevator and Jeffrey's energy had changed. He was he was like seething. He was enraged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So, Michael Trump obviously has denied her allegation. But you say that Jeffrey Epstein told you about this. What did he say to you?
WOLFF: You know, I'm trying to remember there is so much that I don't -- I don't necessarily remember him talking specifically about Stacey Williams. I do remember when she -- when she first came forward, which was in late October. That was the impetus for me to begin to release tapes.
BURNETT: Was as her coming forward with her story?
All right. Let me let me ask you, when you're -- because you mentioned when your tapes were released, you're saying that she was part of the impetus for that. But when you release them, Trump's team did attack you. They called the audio outlandish false smears.
They said that Trump threw Epstein out of Mar-a-Lago, not because of the real estate deal gone wrong, as you describe it, but because that's what they say Trump learned about the sex trafficking allegations and that he found out, you know, they're using the word now creep. So, they threw Epstein out. And we've heard the White House repeat this version of events in recent days.
What do you say to that?
WOLFF: Well, I mean, that's -- I mean, the White House is looking clearly looking to do anything to close down this story, anything to distance Donald Trump from Jeffrey Epstein. And for good reason, because they were so close for so long.
I mean, what they're saying is, is I think its absolute -- it's not true. It's baloney. What is -- what is -- what is credible is the details of Epstein's story about this house, which in fact, Donald Trump did buy. And then sold, bought for $40 million and sold within less than two years for $95 million.
BURNETT: All right. Michael, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Appreciate you sharing that audio with the show. Thank you.
And next, the breaking news.
[19:35:01]
Trump's deputy attorney general could meet as early as tomorrow with Epstein's ex-girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell, who's in prison serving a 20-year term for aiding and abetting him. How unusual is this?
Plus, a world-renowned economist shocking everyone when he said the Fed chair should resign. But his reasons are not what you may think in light of what Trump has been saying. He's our guest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Breaking news. All eyes on the Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, who announced yesterday that he plans to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell in the coming days. Jeffrey Epsteins former girlfriend is currently serving a 20-year sentence in Florida for conspiring with Epstein to sexually abuse underage girls.
Maxwell's attorney says maxwell is waiting to respond to the House subpoena until after her meeting with Blanche.
[19:40:01]
Now, that meeting could come as early as tomorrow, and there are major questions tonight. As her attorney happens to be very good friends with the deputy attorney general.
Brian Todd is OUTFRONT.
(BEGINVIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: Todd, wherever you may be, please?
TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thank you, President Trump.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Todd Blanche's public profile catapulted when he represented Donald Trump at Trump's criminal hush money trial last year. Blanche is now the deputy attorney general of the United States and is square in the middle of the Jeffrey Epstein controversy swirling at the White House.
Blanche says he plans to soon meet with Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein's former associate who is serving a 20-year sentence in federal prison for carrying out a long running scheme with Epstein to groom and sexually abuse underage girls.
Donald Trump has never been accused of wrongdoing in that case. In a statement posted on X by Attorney General Pam Bondi, Blanche writes the Trump Justice Department quote, does not shy away from uncomfortable truths and quote, until now, no administration on behalf of the department had inquired about her willingness to meet with the government. That changes now.
Blanche said he had communicated with counsel for Maxwell regarding the meeting. That counsel is a man Todd Blanche knows well.
DAVID OSCAR MARKUS, ATTORNEY: Okay, I want to welcome Todd Blanche to "For the Defense".
TODD: David Oscar Markus, Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney, has hosted Blanche on his podcast titled "For the Defense" at least twice in 2023 and 2024.
In the podcast last year, Blanche spoke of their relationship.
BLANCHE: I know a lot of people that have worked with you, and I know a lot of people who know you very well. I now consider you a friend and someone who I know pretty well. You are by far the best out there.
TODD: In that same podcast, Jeffrey Epstein came up when Blanche complained about having to leave his law firm to represent Trump.
BLANCHE: It cannot be that defendants like Jeffrey Epstein, defendants like even Hunter Biden, right? Who, who you know, and I don't mean any disrespect, but they can have big law represent them.
And the big law lawyers get awards. They get to go to galas. They get to speak. They're posting on the LinkedIn, how amazing they are. But that if you're representing somebody like the former president of United States in a white collar case that I have to leave my law firm.
TODD: In the 2023 podcast with Markus, Epstein also came up when Blanche spoke about representing former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort and visiting Manafort at Manhattan's notorious metropolitan correctional center, where Epstein later killed himself.
BLANCHE: And to the left when I'm facing him is Jeffrey Epstein, sitting there, and he -- he had just gotten arrested and he had a bail argument the very next day.
TODD: There's nothing Blanche said in those podcasts that would indicate any bias regarding Epstein or Maxwell.
Attorney Aitan Goelman, who's known both Blanche and Markus for years, told us their friendly relations raised no red flags for him.
AITAN GOELMAN, KNOWS TODD BLANCHE AND DAVID OSCAR MARKUS: Prosecutors and defense attorneys are friends, have friendly relationships, have known each other in the past all the time. I don't think that implicates anything. I don't think either Todd or David Markus would let that affect them doing their jobs. I would say I have a lot of doubt about Ghislaine Maxwell's truthfulness and, you know, her motives and what she's going to say, what they're going to release about what she said. But the relationship between Todd and David doesn't bother me at all.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (on camera): We reached out to Todd Blanche via the Justice Department to see if he would comment on our story and to ask if he could characterize the nature of his discussions with David Oscar Markus. We didn't hear back from Blanche.
We also reached out to David Oscar Markus to see if he would comment, and to ask how his relationship with Blanche might affect the Ghislaine Maxwell situation. Markus emailed us back saying only, quote, "Thanks for listening to the podcast episodes. I hope you enjoyed them," end quote -- Erin.
BURNETT: Brian, thank you so much, Brian Todd.
And next, Trump officials about to head to the fed. It is a crucial visit because it could ultimately be the visit that leads to the firing of Fed Chief Jerome Powell. Next, I'm going to talk to a world- renowned economist who also agrees it's time for the chairman to go, but not because he agrees with Trump.
Plus, an inmate who knew the man who killed four Idaho college students, revealing what Bryan Kohberger was like behind bars as the families of those he murdered confront Kohberger.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:48:31]
BURNETT: Breaking news, we are hours away now from Trump officials inspecting the Federal Reserve headquarters. Why is this so crucial? Well, because Trump himself has zeroed in on the 90-year-old building's $2.5 billion renovation. Why?
Well, that is because Trump, who obviously has made no secret of his disregard and disrespect for the Fed chair, Jerome Powell, needs a specific reason to fire Powell. It can't be because Powell is not lowering interest rates the way Trump wants him to. So Trump is claiming that Powell is so badly mismanaging the renovation.
It's $600 million over budget. Trump is sending his team in to have a public show of an inspection tomorrow. And theoretically, that could set up the grounds for Trump to say mismanagement, so it's time for you to be fired. We'll see what happens.
OUTFRONT now, Mohamed El-Erian, the world renowned economist. Currently, he's the chief economist at Allianz. He also ran the largest bond trading company in the world.
And, Mohamed, I really am grateful for your time. You know, and over decades of covering you and interviewing you, you said this and I said, I'm so glad we can talk about it because you're coming out and saying, Jerome Powell should step down. And that would actually prove the Fed's independence.
But to a lot of people, it says, wait a minute. If you're saying Jerome Powell should step down, then you're acquiescing to Trump and to Trump's bullying of Powell. That's the opposite of independence of the Fed. It's caving to Trump.
Explain your thinking here.
MOHAMED EL-ERIAN, CHIEF ECONOMIST AT ALLIANZ: I will, and it's not the consensus view.
[19:50:01]
[19:50:01]
Erin, Fed independence is critical to good economic outcomes. All the economists agree on that. The question is how do you maintain Fed independence?
One view is insist on Chair Powell staying in his seat until May, and allowed the fed to be subject to attacks that are not just on him, but on the institution. And they are broadening day by day. They are getting wider and deeper.
The other approach is my approach is diffuse the issue. Chair Powell steps down. That minimizes the attacks on the Fed. There are good candidates that have been mentioned, and there's a better chance that you will maintain Fed independence because ultimately, it's about maintaining Fed independence.
BURNETT: So -- all right, so I understand what you're saying. You're saying if he does it on his own terms, and yes, he's only doing it because of all of the -- of the firestorm. But the firestorm is not going away. So that he would -- he would defuse it by stepping down himself.
But one other -- I guess you're talking about the fed. Independence is the most important part of what you're saying here, Mohamed. But Trump's attacks specifically and he's called Powell stupid. And a whole lot of other personally pejorative things. But fundamentally, he's mad at Powell because Powell has not lowered interest rates, right? That's what it's all about for Trump.
So, is Trump right on that? Is Trump right on policy, even if his motive and method is wrong?
EL-ERIAN: So the president wants a much bigger cut in interest rates than what I believe is warranted right now. Having said that, while Chair Powell has indicated he will not cut interest rate next week, I am among the economists and there's quite a few of us who believe he should be cutting interest rates next week.
So President Trump has a point, although it's not as big a cut as what he has mentioned.
BURNETT: So, so, okay, I understand what you're saying there. And now I want to circle back to something else. You said, Mohamed, you said, well, there were other good candidates that are mentioned, and I know some of the names that have been out there, but putting -- putting aside the individuals and who we might pick if, if Trump picks somebody else, right, he has the opportunity to do that.
Why do you think that that person, given that Powell has been picked on and humiliated and then in this case, stepped aside because of it, why do you have confidence that they would stand up for an independent Fed?
EL-ERIAN: Because I know at least three of the candidates. They have integrity and they would stand for Fed independence. I also think it makes a very big difference whether you are appointed by chair -- by President Trump right now or not.
If Chair Powell doesn't step down, as you rightly said, the administration is going to look for cause and they're going to start looking at every single corner of the Fed, and they will undermine the integrity of the Fed.
And today, Speaker Johnson came out and started criticizing Powell. So, we're seeing the attack deepen and broaden on the institution. And I believe a new person would be able to defuse this because, Erin, most people agree that the Fed needs reform. And there is a report from the G30 on this.
BURNETT: Yep, yep. Right. And I guess it's important to remember that just because the way something is being handled or what is being suggested is wrong, doesn't mean that everything about the underlying institution right is perfect, or doesn't need reform or doesn't need change. An important context for everyone.
And, Mohamed, it's great to talk to you. Thank you so much.
And next, we have disturbing new details emerging tonight that the man who killed four Idaho college students barely ever slept, washed his hands dozens of times a day while in jail. As he has been sentenced to life without parole today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:57:07]
BURNETT: Breaking news, disturbing new details about the University of Idaho killers' behavior behind bars. A fellow inmate describing how Bryan Kohberger took hour long showers obsessively washed his hands dozens of times a day and spent hours on video calls with his mother.
This as Kohberger was sentenced to life in prison today, coming face to face with his victims' families.
Veronica Miracle is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to go to hell. VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Friends and family
members giving emotional and sometimes heated victim impact statements in court.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will call you what you are -- sociopath, psychopath, murderer.
MIRACLE: At times, expressing raw emotion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You want the truth? Here's the one you'll hate the most -- if you hadn't attacked them in their sleep in the middle of the night like a pedophile, Kaylee would have kicked your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) ass.
MIRACLE: The families of the four University of Idaho students, Kaylee Goncalves, Maddie Mogen, Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle all who were stabbed to death in their off-campus home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Xana's story doesn't end with what was taken from her.
MIRACLE: Kaylee's father, in a dramatic moment, moving the podium to look directly at his daughter's killer, who the family says stabbed her more than 30 times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today, we are here to finish what you started.
MIRACLE: Bryan Kohberger, who confessed to the killings, sat quietly without expression. Dressed in a prison jumpsuit while they spoke. When asked if he had a statement, he uttered only three words.
BRYAN KOHBERGER, IDAHO KILLER: I respectfully decline.
MIRACLE: Bryan Kohberger pleaded guilty to four counts of murder and one count of burglary in a plea deal to avoid the death penalty. Today, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for each of the four murder charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is forever removed from civilized society.
MIRACLE: The judge spoke passionately about what the families of the victims have endured.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even if we could get truthful insight into his why, I suspect it would not in any way quench ones thirst for actually understanding why. No conceivable reason could make any sense.
MIRACLE: The two surviving roommates victims themselves spoke about their enduring trauma.
DYLAN MORTENSEN, SURVIVING ROOMMATE: I had to sleep in my mom's bed because I was too terrified to close my eyes, terrified that if I blinked, someone might be there. Then there are the panic attacks. I can't breathe. I can't think. I can't stop shaking.
MIRACLE: For some families, the proceedings were a chance to get some semblance of closure. The final end to a brutal legal saga.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MIRACLE (on camera): And, Erin, those newly released documents painting a picture of Kohberger's personality. A coworker called him intelligent but selfish, and a woman he was chatting with on Tinder says she was so disturbed she cut off communication with him after he asked her what she thought were the worst ways to die.
We expect more documents to be unsealed in the coming weeks and months, now that this case has concluded -- Erin.
BURNETT: Veronica, thank you so much in Boise. And thanks to all of you for being with us.
"AC360" starts now.
