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Erin Burnett Outfront
Trump Breaks Silence On How Friendship With Epstein Fell Apart; Trump Emphasizes He's "Allowed" To Pardon Epstein Accomplice; Gunman Who Shot An Officer, 2 Civilians In NYC Believed To Be Dead. Aired 7- 8p ET
Aired July 28, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:30]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
Breaking news. President Trump breaking his silence about what he says, ended his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. This as Trump keeps the door open to pardoning Epstein accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell on the same day Maxwell asked the Supreme Court to overturn her conviction.
Plus, more breaking news this hour. CNN on the ground in eastern Ukraine, witnessing Putin's merciless onslaught there in the face of Trump's new ultimatum.
And what Trump's official trips like the one that he is on right now, have to do right now with making him a lot richer. The "Forbes" editor who knows the most about Trump's business empire, is connecting new dots for you tonight.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news. Trump breaking his silence on what he says caused his close friendship with Jeffrey Epstein to crumble.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For years, I wouldn't talk to Jeffrey Epstein. I wouldn't talk because he did something that was inappropriate. He hired help, and I said, don't ever do that again. He stole people that work for me. I said, don't ever do that again. He did it again, and I threw him out of the place, persona non grata. I threw him out and that was it. I'm glad I did if you want to know the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, you know, of course, we've heard from multiple guests, all of who -- all of whom knew Trump and -- in different times and ways, they all agreed with one thing that Epstein and Trump were once, quote, "best friends". Now, of course, the big question is what does that really mean when it
comes to Trump? And if Epstein and Trump ended their long friendship, as Trump describes it, happening there, right? Because Epstein hired people who worked for him. Well, who was the hired help that Epstein was stealing away that was so important?
There are a lot of questions about this. The answers matter, and in a moment, I'm going to speak to people who have inside knowledge of the Epstein investigation and Trump and Epstein's relationship. But obviously, it's important that Trump chose to disclose these details tonight. It is a big turnaround from past answers as of late about what came between him and Epstein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I did have a falling out a long time ago. The reason doesn't make any difference.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, Trump now sees that the reason perhaps does make a difference, and that his attempts to dismiss the Epstein investigation are not working. They are not making it go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's a hoax that's been built up way beyond proportion. I don't do drawings. I'm not a drawing person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. Trump referring there to the crude drawing that was reported by "The Wall Street Journal" to have been in Epstein's 50th birthday book. He tried to make this all go away, denying, making the drawing, calling the whole thing a hoax.
Now, of course, this is not a hoax because we're talking about targeting, assaulting and raping underage girls. But the point is still this, Trump's trying to make it go away. And when it failed, you know, to say, oh, I didn't do the drawing or the whole thing is a hoax, he's tried another tack, which is to claim that the Biden administration and former FBI chief James Comey are behind the Epstein files, tampering with them or making them up in some way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I can say this those files were run by the worst scum on Earth. If they had anything, why didn't they use it when I was killing Joe?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Of course, it's worth here just one basic fact that I think speaks a thousand words, which is that Epstein was arrested while Trump was President.
But Trump tried to blame Biden anyway for all of this. Anything to make it go away. And now he is even dangling a pardon to the one person who is serving time for helping Epstein run a child sex trafficking ring. That, of course, is Ghislaine Maxwell, convicted liar who may end up in a position, may end up in the position of actually being able to sink or save people whose names are in the Epstein files.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I'm allowed to give her a pardon, but nobody's approached me with it. Nobody's asked me about it. It's in the news about that. That aspect of it. But right now, it would be inappropriate to talk about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Right now, it would be inappropriate. He says, not -- not ever.
Of course, Maxwell's attorney has been very clear she wants a pardon. He spoke out publicly on Friday saying that they hope Trump acts in what they say is a right and just way.
[19:05:03]
And tonight, Maxwell, who is serving 20 years for her role in helping Epstein groom and abuse those underage girls, is pressing ahead with an appeal to the Supreme Court. She claims she was unlawfully prosecuted for her actions with Epstein. And while she waits to see if Trump or the Supreme Court come to her rescue, Democrats are warning of what they see as a corrupt bargain. The top Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee tonight, demanding all records and transcripts from the DOJ interviews over the past few days with Maxwell.
Remember that meeting with the assistant attorney general, Todd Blanche, where Maxwell brought -- there was a drone that actually captured this footage. She has this giant box. What is in that box?
Well, Senator Durbin, the top Democrat there, pressing the Justice Department to give answers and to also commit publicly to not offering a pardon or commutation of sentence to Maxwell, saying, quote, serious questions about the potential for a corrupt bargain between the Trump administration and Ghislaine Maxwell.
Well, those questions are front and center tonight, which has Trump's one-time first buddy Elon Musk posting a bullseye emoji to a post that reads: Here's how it's about to go down. Ghislaine names a bunch of Democrats, maybe tosses in a few billionaires. She says Trump did nothing wrong. And then there's a picture of someone in MAGA hat with a button that reads 'fell for it again award" with the text MAGA praises her for, quote, taking down the pedophiles. Trump pardons her for quote, telling the truth.
Well, Jeff Zeleny is traveling with the president tonight OUTFRONT live in Edinburgh, Scotland.
And Jeff, the president's new explanation of his falling out with Epstein, which he really has not wanted to talk about, right? He said, oh, the reason doesn't matter. I don't want to talk about it.
Now he's coming out with this, this -- that it was about hiring people who worked for him. It's raising new questions tonight.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Erin, it is raising new questions and certainly not answering the old ones. It was fairly notable as President Trump was sitting next to the British prime minister talking about Gaza, talking about Ukraine and Russia. He was asked questions because he kept the Q&A going with reporters for some 75 minutes.
The questions came near the end of that period, and he was asked these questions, and he talked at length about this, simply adding more oxygen to what has been a political crisis. At the very least, that the White House has been trying to get beyond and clearly even an ocean away does not allow the president to do that.
But adding those new details is certainly going to keep this alive. But, Erin, I was struck by the president that he's had so many inconsistencies about whether he'd been briefed about his name being in the files. And he said when he landed here in Scotland on Friday evening, he had not been briefed. Of course, the White House acknowledged that he had been briefed by the attorney general.
But today, he said something new. He said, well, you know, any name in there could be a hoax. Someone else put names in there, so certainly laying the predicate, the groundwork for the potential eventual release of his name being in the file. So that was notable as well.
But certainly, the explanation for why they parted ways back in 2004, some people who are close to them had long believed it was a real estate deal.
BURNETT: Yeah.
ZELENY: The president said that they were -- he tried to hire some of his people. So again, the bottom line is the presidents here. Certainly not answering questions. And he'll have them waiting for him when he gets back to Washington -- Erin.
BURNETT: Absolutely. And so important, as you point out, talking about, you know, names being inserted into the files and laying the predicate for it being somehow a hoax is the word he likes to use as to his name being in there, which he was briefed on in May, as we're aware by the attorney general.
Jeff, thank you so much, reporting from Edinburgh there.
Tara Palmeri is back with us. She has reported extensively on Epstein and Maxwell. Lulu Garcia-Navarro of "The New York Times" is here. And Spencer Kuvin, he represented nine clients who made claims against Epstein, including a 14-year-old who reported Epstein and sparked the probe.
So, I appreciate all of you so very much. So, Tara, you've reported on this extensively, and now with Trump
coming out first, he says he doesn't matter why we fell apart, why we fell out. And now giving this explanation about hiring people who worked for him, there's been a lot of reporting on it being related to a real estate deal, but he's giving this. He stole people who worked for me.
What do you know about all this?
TARA PALMERI, HOST, "THE TARA PALMERI SHOW": I mean, who would he steal that was working for him? Jeffrey Epstein was a financier, allegedly. And Donald Trump had properties, right? That he had golf courses. He had real estate.
I mean, Jeffrey Epstein also had a number of properties. The only person we know that was actually poached from Mar-a-Lago when they were working there was Virginia Roberts Giuffre, at 16 years old in the year 2000 by Ghislaine Maxwell. That is a person that we know. And then Virginia went on to live basically enslaved by them for the next two years, passed around like she said, like a --
BURNETT: The only person that we know of that Epstein hired who worked for Trump was a 16-year-old girl.
PALMERI: Yes, Virginia Giuffre.
And so, I have no idea.
[19:10:01]
We know that they got in a bidding war over a piece of property, ironically called the House of Friendship. President Trump was angry that Epstein made him bid higher and higher and higher, and apparently, he called him afterwards, according to his sworn testimony to a lawyer, and shouted at him over that. And it broke them up.
And this was about in 2004, because Epstein was investigated starting in 2006, it was a convenient time to no longer be associated with a pedophile. But yeah, I mean, this is the story for a very, very, very long time that their friendship ended over property.
BURNETT: Over property. Right. And if you're staying over hiring people again, there are questions about that. We only know of the one, Virginia Giuffre, who is at the center of all of, you know, turning Epstein in. And, of course, Prince Andrew, all of that.
Lulu, it is -- it is, you know, it's almost like anything that he now says. And as Jeff pointed out, he's injecting a predicate in here for saying that his name is part of a hoax. Others may be real, but this inconsistency on how they even stopped being friends.
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I mean, I think this is part of, first of all, Trump trying to distance himself from this to muddle the timeline, to confuse people over what may or may not have happened. But at the end of the day, this is only going to fuel the fire. Why? Because we still don't know a lot about what happened. There is a lot, as you mentioned, that has been, you know, talked
about through court cases, et cetera. But there's these central questions about Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and what actually happened there, what broke them apart, and what was the relationship during the '90s? How well did they know each other?
We know that he was on the -- on, you know, the flight logs that we know that he was on the famous plane, the Lolita Express, as it was called. But we, you know, we should say transparently, there is nothing that links Donald Trump, the president, to any misdeeds that were committed. But this is a scandal because, you know, we know that there are files, we know that there is information and we don't have access to it.
BURNETT: Right, right. And of course, and there's layers of, you know what? What someone did or what someone knew someone else did. And these are questions about many people who were around Epstein.
Spencer, what Trump is saying here, also, as Jeff said, laying the predicate for and he's used this word hoax. But that oh, well, you know, well put out anything credible. And then later the White House, when they put that out last week, said, well, of course, anything we've seen with Trump is incredible, right?
So, he is saying Comey and others to blame. Maybe his name was put in there. All these implications are out there. Here's what he said today, Spencer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I can say this. Those files were run by the worst scum on Earth. They were run by Comey. They were run by Garland. They were run by Biden. And all of the people that actually ran the government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Just a reminder that Epstein was charged while Trump was president, again, Spencer, important to say, but what's your response to that?
SPENCER KUVIN, REPRESENTED 9 CLIENTS WHO MADE CLAIMS AGAINST EPSTEIN: It's absurd. I mean, look, we knew dating back to 2006 that Trump was in these files. He was actually requested to appear for a deposition in some of the earliest of these cases. And he negotiated away that and instead agreed to a phone call to discuss some of the issues relating to the case.
But when these cases first started and I handled victim number one, we're dating this back to 2006 when the arrest occurred. But that's not when the violations occurred. The sexual assaults and the trafficking dated back for at least a number of years during the investigation. That would have put this back into the George Bush administration.
So, for him to start blaming other parties, it just makes absolutely no sense in the timeline. And, you know, I just have to say, pointing fingers at other administrations on behalf of the victims, I can tell you that we were frustrated with the Obama administration. We were frustrated with the Biden administration.
The victims have always wanted the information to come out. I don't care what administration is in power. Get the information out there, sign an executive order today demanding that that information be released.
BURNETT: Yes. And also, you have reported, Tara, of up to a thousand women, or at least a thousand women who, many of whom were girls at the time, who are in these files. So, all the focus is right now on justice for who are the men in there? What did they know? What were they doing?
Okay, but the victims were girls.
PALMERI: Right.
BURNETT: And there were at least a thousand of them. You spoke with one of them.
So, in the context of, you know, oh, it's a hoax. And the tampering of the files and, you know, real people's lives were ruined as you've done such incredible reporting on.
On your podcast, you spoke with Annie Farmer, one of Epstein's accusers, her older sister had been on with us. She was 15, I guess, when all of this started. Let me play a clip from your interview.
[19:15:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNIE FARMER, JEFFREY EPSTEIN ACCUSER: She was a huge part of connecting Epstein to the people he was able to access. Her presence alone as a woman, I think helped people feel safe. And of course, yeah, a middle-aged man approaching young women would be seen very differently for massages. But if someone who seems well-educated, well-spoken, is interested and curious, you know, is talking with a young girl about this, it's received completely differently. And I know in my case, I felt after, you know, my first encounter with Epstein, I was certainly on edge because of some of the ways he had interacted with me. But then when I learned id been invited to the ranch and that Ghislaine was going to be there, I agreed to go because I thought, well, nothing could happen because this is his partner. And she would, you know, as a woman, like, I will be safe because of her presence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So, all this talk now of her possibly getting a pardon, how central was she to what he did?
PALMERI: She was everything. I mean, actually, in this case, Annie Farmer testified in the case in 2021. She was first molested by Ghislaine before Jeffrey got into the bed and molested her. And I think a lot of people forget that, that Ghislaine Maxwell actually sexually abused these girls, including Virginia Giuffre on the first time that she walked through the door of Jeffrey Epstein's house.
And it is this phrase that the victims have taught me betrayal trauma. It's when someone who is supposed to be in charge of your safety and who you think is supposed to take care of your well-being, then violates that. It's a betrayal trauma, and it's something that they felt is unique to Ghislaine Maxwell because of the fact that she was a woman.
She even spoke to the Farmers' mother and said, don't worry, I'll be there. And then she's trapped on a farm in New Mexico with these creeps.
BURNETT: And so, you know, Spencer, so with all this possible pardon talk you have heard, I mean, I think it's important what Tara is saying here. Just keep this in the center of it, because some Trump allies are trying to paint her somehow as a victim, that she's misunderstood.
All right, here's Newsmax's Greg Kelly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREG KELLY, NEWSMAX HOST: She just might be a victim. She just might be. There was a rush to judgment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Spencer?
KUVIN: Absolutely absurd. I have a client that was convinced to come to the Manhattan mansion and was raped by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. She was not only recruiting these women, but she was participating in the sexcapades that Epstein had set up.
This woman belongs behind bars for the rest of her life. There is absolutely no way that the victims would ever look at this as a rush to judgment. In fact, it took forever to actually get her prosecuted based on the evidence that they had at the time.
It's absolutely absurd. She deserves to be behind bars and should never be let out.
BURNETT: She is serving, of course, a 20-year sentence.
Thank you all very much.
And breaking news, major police presence in midtown Manhattan at this hour. Our John Miller is reporting two people have been shot, including an officer, a man with a long gun was seen entering a building. Details are just coming in. We're going to get right more on this after the break.
And Joe Rogan, one of the most influential podcasters, someone credited with helping Trump win the White House, is not letting the Epstein investigation go, mentioning Epstein 40 times in his last podcast.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ROGAN, PODCAST HOST: When you have this one hardcore line in the sand that everybody had been talking about forever, and then they're trying to gaslight you on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And a blistering rebuke. I'll talk to the FCC commissioner who voted against the Paramount merger after Stephen Colbert's show was canceled. Tonight, she's warning Americans will pay the price for what happened.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:22:57]
BURNETT: Breaking news live pictures from Midtown Manhattan. Our John Miller reporting at least two people have been shot. Now this is taking place on East 52nd Street between Park and Lexington Avenues.
People who work in the area are said to be getting texts and emails to shelter in place.
Our Shimon Prokupecz is there on the scene.
All right, Shimon, just trying to understand here. We understand two people have been shot. What is the latest as you understand what happened -- what's happening here?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. One of those people shot is, is wait -- hold on, Erin, I'm just trying to back up, okay? Do we still think there's a concern here with -- okay, okay.
All right. Erin, I was just talking to one of the officers here. There's still a major concern here along from -- yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know who you are. You got it, buddy. Thank you.
I'm at Park and 51st. I'm just -- the police here are asking me to move back because were still facing a very dangerous situation.
Right now, they're working with the theory. The police here that a gunman with a high-powered rifle. This is what the chief of detectives here told me on scene as I got here at Park Avenue, they believe is inside a building here, possibly the Blackstone office building here. Certainly, people in the neighborhood, witnesses reported seeing a man run into that building with a high powered rifle.
As you said, two people have been shot. One of them is a police officer. It's unclear if that officer was on duty or off duty. I don't have that information. But what I can tell you from the scene here, this is a massive, massive response from the NYPD. We're also seeing state police here. The bomb squad is on scene. Almost every officer that is here is has their bulletproof vests on,
their helmets on, and long guns. I saw a number of officers entering a nearby building, also to search through that building with long guns. Also armed. They were wearing all kinds of protective gear. I'm now seeing more officers in front of me entering another building.
They are going through these buildings now looking for this suspected gunman.
[19:25:03]
They don't know where he is.
What's also just to tell you how serious and frightening the situation is here, many of the officers are staying back out of sight of that building, and they're keeping all of the people on the street, all of the civilians, as far back as possible, because they just don't know how dangerous of a situation this is right now.
But they are clearly operating under the theory that this gunman is still inside this Park Avenue building with a rifle and all of the streets surrounding this entire area for blocks now have been closed -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Shimon, stay with us here as we're finding out more information. We now understand two civilians and one officer have been shot. We don't know their condition. And obviously, this shooter, a person with a high-powered rifle right now, they believe is inside that building, possibly the one where the -- that looks like that is possibly the injured officer.
I can't tell you that for sure. I'm obviously making that assumption on what we're seeing here on the screen.
John Miller, I think you can see this as well. You may know better than I know the condition of those who were shot. We know one officer was shot. I don't know if that's who we just saw there being wheeled. Obviously, that person is okay or injured. But okay.
What are you learning?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, this starts when a man dressed in a dark suit carrying a large semiautomatic rifle walks into the building across the plaza and into the building there. We believe he may -- and, Erin, I know you understand this, but all this information is going to be preliminary because were at that stage where they're working with what they have, and it's a little bit of the fog of war. So just bear with me.
This man in the dark suit, no tie, open collar, shirt carrying by his side a automatic weapon, walks across that sidewalk plaza towards the lobby. Now, normally that building has a police officer stationed there. It's a private security detail where they -- where they pay a police officer who's off duty to stand there in uniform as part of their security. That may or may not have been the officer who confronted him. But there is shots fired. The police officer is shot. Another individual is shot, and the person goes into the building. And what we are told from what police believe right now is that he goes up into the building.
So, what you have now is the block is frozen other police officers have been pulled out of the building. It is now under control of the NYPD's ESU or Emergency Service Unit. That is the equivalent of NYPD's special operators or SWAT team.
They are working with the building control center to control things like the elevator, to be in touch with people in the building and to get people who are sheltering in place in a situation where they can control exits.
But in the meantime, they believe the gunman is inside. They don't know what that person's status is. They are conducting a search, and they have been given information by people in the building as to where they think the gunman is. So that is fluidity of this situation.
BURNETT: All right. So, you say that, you know, the long gun was visible when he came in. I -- three individuals shot here as you said one the officer possibly the off duty officer who was providing the extra security. Although we're unclear on that. What is the NYPD's knowledge of the situation with this particular building? What I'm referring to, John, is when they say he's in the building where he might be, say, video that's in all of those elevators.
How quickly can they see all that? Or scan for him, or get a sense of whether he got on the elevator or took the stairs? Or is it a needle in a haystack in a massive midtown skyscraper, or do they have a better sense than that?
MILLER: Well, they're working off of two things. One, people who encountered the gunman, people who saw the gunman have called 911 and given some detailed information.
They also have what they can exploit from the buildings control center, as you already pointed out, by scanning those videos. And then when one ends saying, okay, where's the next camera that's going to be able to pick that up? So they're using the buildings systems as well as what they're getting from eyewitnesses. And they have isolated that to a couple of areas. But right now, it's an extraordinarily -- extraordinarily tense and fluid.
BURNETT: So isolated to a couple of areas. So, I guess that means there have been people inside the building who saw him who weren't just in the lobby, right? There's -- who have called 911 sounds like you're saying.
MILLER: That's right. There have been reports of this individual on various floors in the upper parts of the building.
Now, this is -- while it may look chaotic, this is a doctrine. This is something that is practiced. This is something that is drilled into NYPD officers. So, you know, what you see here coming towards you on video, this is the CRT or the community response team. They're a special citywide force. They will have a role. But the main thing is to engage the shooter, which appears to be what
happened with the first police officer he encountered to stop the threat. The shooter actually shot the police officer and continued with a much larger weapon.
Now the second part is contain that area, set up a perimeter. So, now, the building is the containment. Now, now, it's the third step which is to contain the shooter to wherever he can be located in that building.
So that is where the SRG, the Strategic Response Group, you'll see one of their cars right there. We're just zooming past. Their job is to develop that perimeter and lock down that containment. The ESU, the Emergency Service Unit, those are the people with the heavy weapons, their job is to probe that building and try to make contact with that shooter.
BURNETT: And do you know, John, at this point when he came in, the way you described him walking across the plaza all in black, but with a long gun visible? What -- so it sounded like he other than the long gun, which is not a simple thing to say other than in New York City, right? People don't walk around with guns like that. But was his face visible? I mean, do they -- they have any idea at this point who he is?
MILLER: They do not know who he is. They know he is a male, possibly white. He's wearing sunglasses. He appears to have a mustache.
And that picture has been distributed to every police officer in New York city particularly, has been sent to the phones of the search teams inside that building because whenever they encounter a group of people, the first thing they have to figure out is, is that individual among these people hiding among victims or pretending to be an office worker, because one thing you don't want to have happen is to have this kind of cordon where you're trying to evacuate people in groups as you can get them to a safe corridor and have this person slip out with them.
So yes, they have the picture and they have distributed to everybody on the scene.
BURNETT: All right. All right, John, stay with me. I know you're obviously getting information here in real time as we're talking.
Shimon back with us on the phone on the scene shown here to John's reporting that they do know what he looks like. Male, possibly white, mustache, sunglasses in that building. Isolated to -- they believe, to various locations, including upper floors is where they're focused.
What are you learning, Shimon?
PROKUPECZ: Yeah. So, look, I mean, the scene here, we're still seeing. I don't know if you can hear, but police officers are still coming to this area.
They have closed several blocks all around this area. It's even officers just to tell you how dangerous of a situation this is. Many of the officers, unless they're have their helmets on, unless they're armed, unless they have certain gear on, they're not allowed anywhere near the building. They've told the officers to stay off Park Avenue. And so, as a result, the entire area has been shut down.
What's also been quite frightening to watch is to see teams. I mean, at least a dozen, dozens of heavily armed officers going into a building lined -- they're lined up one behind the other with their long guns pointed as they were going into one of the nearby buildings.
The other thing that's been sort of eerie to watch is people that are inside these buildings looking down at what is going on. They have not been able to leave the building. The police have now taken over the entire area. And so, in many of these buildings, the police are going floor by floor, clearing them and then telling the people to leave, and then they have to come out with their hands up.
And that's been the scene playing out here as the police try to find this alleged gunman. But the scene here is almost like nothing I have ever seen before here in Manhattan. To see hundreds of officers like this, heavily armed helmets, long guns, the bomb squad, you know, a number of these emergency services officers that John talked about, the CRT teams, all of these teams that train for this train, for this kind of response are here. And it is enormous.
[19:35:00]
And right now, all the focus is on that one building where they believe the gunman is inside. And for now, that is what police are doing. They're going through that building, trying to find this gunman. There is real concern here for the lives of the officers who are standing outside, and certainly for many of the civilians, and that this could potentially turn into some kind of sniper situation.
And so, that is why many of us have been pushed back. And it is so serious here that many of the officers aren't even allowed to be around the building where they believe the gunman is.
BURNETT: Right. As you say, that only the ones with the right equipment and the right teams, the building we're talking here, 345 Park Avenue. Look, there's going to be -- we understand Blackstone, one of the largest private equity firms in the world, has offices in there. Of course, it's a Manhattan skyscraper. There will be others.
So, Brian Stelter, you have been in this building, 345 Park Avenue to try to give everyone a sense for what this is like beyond, you know, New York City skyscraper. Tell us about this building. And when you hear John Miller talk about the shooter with a long gun walking across the open area in front of it and then walking in, what is this lobby area look like? How many elevators? Those sorts of things to as they're trying to find him.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Right. This is a large skyscraper that spans the entire city block from park avenue over to Lexington. And there is, as you've heard, that large pedestrian plaza outside a big Bank of America branch where people might have been inside taking out money in that in that plaza area. And then once you walk inside the building, one of the many tenants in this skyscraper is the headquarters for the NFL, the National Football League, which is why I've been in the building in the past.
You mentioned another big tenant is Blackstone, the private equity giant. These are a number of tenants across a 44-floor building right in the heart of midtown Manhattan. So when I've been there, visiting at the NFL in the past, this is, you know, this is not a small or medium size office building in any city. This is a large office building with many tenants with a giant elevator bank, multiple elevator banks, and normally, of course, when you walk into a building of this size and scale, you're going straight to the security desk, you're going straight to that. That security bank where there are multiple staffers at any given time.
BURNETT: All right. So, Brian, stay with us.
The deputy former deputy director of the FBI, Andy McCabe, is with us as well.
And, Andy, I just want to ask you, you talk about a 40-floor, 44-story building, as Brian is reporting and what John Miller just said, there were a few things that really stood out there among them that they did get. They do know what he looks like. Sunglasses, mustache, male, possibly white, and that they were already able to identify various parts of the building where they think he is right now from 911 calls and also possibly video on those elevators that they were able to move that quickly. And John said they're focused on various floors in the upper parts of the building.
That -- now -- we don't -- we don't know his status right now if that's going to end up being where he is. But they have moved incredibly quickly.
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: They really have, and, you know, let's be honest, this is the largest, best trained, best equipped police force in the country, anywhere between 30,000 and 35,000 sworn officers at any given time, depending on recruiting and attrition. So, they have a massive resource to deal with.
And that is a good thing in this situation, because when you have an active shooter loose in it, even in any size building. But this is an enormous building. At some point, your tactical teams have to go in there and clear floor by floor, room by room, closet by closet, corridor by corridor.
There's no other way to avoid that. So, what the -- what the response is trying to do right now is to, of course, locate him within that building and then try to isolate him in wherever he's located so that he can't continue moving around. Once you have him essentially frozen to one, let's say one floor, you can then do the hard work of clearing and getting an evacuating, the civilians who are occupying the other floors.
But even that is tough, is a -- is a tough thing to do because these officers don't know. They don't know if there's a second shooter. They don't know if he has anyone else working with him. So, you kind of have to approach everyone that you encounter in that building right now as a potential threat. So it's a very complicated and kind of long process.
BURNETT: And also, John Miller, as you're pointing out, if they don't know who this person is yet, what his motive might be, as you say, everyone that they're taking out has to put their arms up. You know, I guess they've got to think about every contingency. Does he try to -- if they're opening some elevators to allow some people out, you know, whatever, you rip off your fake mustache and your sunglasses.
[19:40:05]
You know, there's things you could do to try to blend in and just get out.
I mean, all of this has to be on the table.
All right. I don't know if John Miller can hear me, but if he can, hell just jump in here with the latest that he's learning.
I see that they have some gurneys, Director McCabe, there. There's no one on those. There was a gurney with a police officer on it. We don't know whether that officer was just injured in this process. Or was the officer who had been shot. We don't yet know the condition or condition of that officer or the two civilians that we know to have been shot at this point, director.
So, when you -- you know the training of the NYPD and you're looking at 44 floors, what are the odds that they find this person? And when.
MCCABE: Oh, they're absolutely going to find him like that. That's not -- that's not a -- that's not an option. So, but the key there is the when, right? And it and it requires this massive, you know, accumulation of tactical teams that can do that work that we talked about just a minute ago. That hard work of clearing every floor kind of inch by inch.
And then even those folks who are -- who are evacuated from the building, you will see them coming out holding their hands up. Even in a situation like what you described as someone who tries to essentially hide in plain sight and, and maybe exit the building, hide, you know, posing as a civilian or a victim rather than the shooter. Those people will be gathered together. They'll be interviewed. You're going to need to take statements from all those people.
And that's like an additional opportunity for investigators to really probe those individuals, to make sure that they don't have anyone kind of hiding in that group. So they're going to be asked to identify other people who are around them. Did you see this guy? Who do you know, that person where they work.
So it's a very complicated process, but it's one that given the amount of time and resources it takes, they will find this guy.
BURNETT: They will find him.
All right. John Miller, I know you can hear me now. What is the latest that you're learning now about where they are on this and if anything on the status of the three individuals we know who were shot.
MILLER: So, they went to Bellevue Hospital. Right now, what they're asking for is medical resources up into the upper floors of the building to deal with additional victims. Now, I don't know. We don't know if those are additional gunshot victims or people in some kind of other trauma.
But the fact that they are bringing the emergency medical service rescue task force, these are specially trained medics who are equipped with bulletproof vests, tactical helmets and work with force protection from the emergency service unit to travel into -- not the hot zone, but at least the warm zone. And that means that they believe that they have secured an area where they have victims, where they can safely bring treatment under force protection, and at the same time, they have been gathering people.
Now they have control of the elevator banks, and they'\ve been sending them down in groups and out in groups.
BURNETT: Okay. So, they have control of the elevator banks. Let me just make sure I understand you. So the three original victims, two civilians, one officer, you're saying went to Bellevue hospital. So that would mean I mean, we don't know if they will make it, but that they are alive.
But these -- when you say bringing people up to an area that they have secured with victims, just -- to be very clear here, these are these are already existing victims or the potential for victims, or are you saying they do know that that that other people have been injured? It would seem, by being shot, but it's unclear.
MILLER; The latter. These are people who are in need of medical care. We don't know whether they are shooting victims or whether they are people who are suffering trauma, difficulty breathing. I mean, there's any number of possibilities.
But the fact that that they can move resources in that direction gives us a sign that they have developed a warm zone, which means they have a safe corridor to get from where they would bring them in to where they need them upstairs.
BURNETT: All right. And that would also seem to indicate that they have a better sense of where he isn't right, I guess. And in a building at 44 stories, it sometimes I would imagine there's a lot of power in knowing where someone isn't, even if you don't know exactly where they are.
When you had said earlier, John, that they were focused on various floors in the upper parts of the building, then is that still the case, as you understand it?
MILLER: Well, it is, and there are certain things that that we can't share and shouldn't share at this point, because they're still at a critical stage here.
[19:45:05]
But everything that I'm saying and everything that they're doing, there is a reason behind that. And some additional information which hopefully will be able to draw out a little a little bit more.
One of the cautions here, as you know, from having done so many of these, Erin, unfortunately, is that we always have to be mindful of the idea that between people who are watching, listening information that's being sent over social media, that we have to be a little bit guarded on specifics.
BURNETT: Yes. No. And I and I know you -- you share what you can from your sources. Some of it obviously, you must protect.
Also with us now, John, as you're checking with your sources and here on your phone constantly. I'll come back to you in one second. I just want to bring in former Secret Service Chief Jonathan Wackrow.
So, Jonathan, when you hear what Jon is reporting, that there's now areas where they, they, they feel they have control of enough and know that the gunman is not. So, they are able to bring care for victims, who he said is unclear what those victims are suffering from, whether its trauma or anxiety or being shot. We just don't know at this point in the upper floors of this building.
But what do you make of the speed with which this is moving?
JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: This is moving very, very quickly. And to Commissioner Miller's point, you know, what the EMS in the FDNY are doing is they're operating under a construct of really looking at zones of diminishing threat. And oftentimes when you think about active shooter situations, we're thinking about it on a horizontal plane, not a vertical plane. And right now, we are operating in a vertical plane with a high rise building.
So that presents very significant challenges, not only for the initial police response, but also for the coordinated medical response that may be necessary. So there's a couple of ways that they can actually operate in that zone of diminishing threat. One is that, you know, the potential shooter or shooters have been neutralized and they're doing now secondary searches.
We have not heard that yet, though from the NYPD. So we don't want to assume that that is the case at this point in time.
The other option that NYPD and FDNY and EMS trained for is actually going in and having medical units going in as part of the tactical response. These are individuals, medical personnel that are specifically trained for tactical situations, working in unison with the NYPD's ESU to actually go to the victims as soon as possible.
Again, we're thinking about the golden hour here. When someone is shot, getting them medical attention is critical. And it's, you know, the difficulties of being in a high rise location and just the evacuation down from wherever they are presents significant challenges. But this is something that has been trained in practice, both in a coordinated fashion with the NYPD and the FDNY.
BURNETT: So former D.C. Police Chief Charles Ramsey joins us now.
Chief, what do you see in how the NYPD is operating right now from John's reporting, you know, of where they are in this, that there are now, as John described it, sort of warm zones where you can safely put people who need medical attention. And we do not yet know why that is. So, we don't know the scale of what we're talking about here. We are in the dark on that, right, as to whether there's a mass shooting that's occurred on those upper floors, or whether it's more trauma and anxiety, we don't know.
But what do you see in the NYPD force here?
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, obviously, there's a tremendous response to this. And I was listening to both John Miller and Jon Wackrow, and I couldn't agree more with their description of what's possibly or probably taking place inside of that building right now.
It's going to be a while before we know anything about extent of injuries other than what we may get from a hospital. Right now, the main concern is one to try to evacuate innocent people from the building if they haven't already been evacuated. At this time of night. I would imagine many people who work in that building already gone home.
However, you have janitorial staff, you may have a night shift in one of the offices or something like that. So, you still could very well have people at risk in that building.
BURNETT: Chief -- yes, absolutely. And I didn't want to interrupt you, but we do have what I believe is an extremely significant development on this.
Let's go to Shimon Prokupecz on the ground.
Shimon, you're learning something about the shooter right now?
PROKUPECZ: Yeah. So, I believe this, Erin, I believe our latest information is that the that the gunman is now dead. So, they believe that this is the gunman, and our latest information is that the shooter is dead. This is someone that the police have been obviously looking for through this building after witnesses reported seeing a gunman walk into the building with this long-powered rifle.
[19:50:03]
It caused some great concern here, as you can imagine.
I want to -- I've been here for over an hour now, Erin. I've walked up and down Park Avenue. It's been quite hard to get around.
But this is the scene here. We're on 49th Street. The building is at 52nd Street, and you could see just the response. Here. You have the state police rod. If you look over here, you can see the FBI is here.
Let's walk across the street. So, we could just kind of show them, look this way. We're crossing the street.
We can't cross this way? Okay, okay, okay. Okay. So they're not letting us go, but it's down -- it's up this street here, Erin, where this all happened. That's where that building is. But as you can see, I mean, I crossed the street just moments ago, but now the police are not letting us cross.
But as you said, the big news here for now, a sigh of relief certainly here for the NYPD. And the huge response here. They believe that the shooter is dead. It's not over, though, because what happens now is the police need to do secondary searches. They need to go through every floor to make sure that there is no other threat. They need to look to see if anyone else is injured.
But it's not just that building, it's the buildings nearby as well that they're searching. So this is going to go on for quite some time. We're hoping to get an official update here soon from the NYPD. So far, that has not happened as they've been working the scene.
But certainly this is going to be a sigh of some relief for the officials, for the people standing out here, and also, Erin, I cannot even begin to understand what people in these buildings, in that Blackstone building in the building next door, to see people at the windows at this hour, standing there by the window watching what is going on underneath them with this threat.
I mean, I can't imagine what must be going through their minds. And you could see the people. You could see them at the windows looking down.
BURNETT: Yeah. Well, you know --
PROKUPECZ: I suspect, Erin, this is going to go on. This is going to go on for quite some time as they, you know, make sure there's no other threat.
BURNETT: Yes. And you know, as, as you're saying them looking down, I keep thinking, as you know, living here for a long time, you think of days like 9/11 and, you know, just these are people who went to work and the unbelievable fear and trauma of that.
I don't want to use the word miraculous, but I mean, what an incredible work by the NYPD that the shooters believed to be dead. I don't know whether by his own hand or not, but it is. They're fast moving. And --
PROKUPECZ: You know, Erin, I --
BURNETT: Yeah?
PROKUPECZ: I just want to point out that, officer, it's going to be I want to wait to hear the stories on that officer who first encountered this, this gunman. This is why in this city and cities all across our country now, there are armed police officers, whether they're retired, whether they're off duty.
This is why we have them. This is why they are at buildings. They're at all the buildings we go through, and it's going to be interesting to see how important that the role that that officer played and perhaps turning this into a much worse situation.
BURNETT: Yes. I mean, to think about it, because he apprehended and we believe that officer is injured at Bellevue Hospital. We believe just injured along with the two civilians. Initially, we don't know what happened fully on those upper floors, but that may be his getting involved then and apprehending and then being aware is how this could have turned -- you know, did not turn into something much, much bigger.
Again, we don't yet know the full extent.
John Miller, what are you learning now? We understand the shooter is dead. Do you know how, when? Do you know anything more about victims in the upper floors?
MILLER: So, this is what we were talking about before. It appears -- and again, this is all very preliminary that the subject killed himself on one of the floors in the 30s, high up in the building. It appears to be a self-inflicted injury.
And that is one of the reasons that they are able to start bringing more and more people out as they're sending them down. Various elevator banks with the RSG resources, but it's an enormous building, and it's not an average building, you know? So we've been through this with school shooters, where they have to go through the whole school. People are hiding in lockers. They're -- they're hiding in closets, under desks, up against walls.
Imagine the office building, skyscraper, Midtown Manhattan, Central --
BURNETT: Full block.
MILLER: -- you know, of the world, they're in a in a building where, you know, this is 345 Park Avenue. This is where KPMG is. This is where Blackstone is. This is where the NFL is headquarters. This is where some of the top law firms in the city are.
[19:55:02]
And they are going floor by floor. And what they are finding is they're finding people barricaded in conference rooms with desks, you know, shoved up against the doors. They're finding people, you know, locked into offices in small groups. And this is going to take a long time to get through the building that size.
BURNETT: Yeah.
MILLER: In the meantime, things are spinning, right? I mean, you've got this individual who walks in, carrying this long rifle, appears to be either -- it's hard to tell from the images, but it appears to be either an AR style rifle or an AK style rifle, with, you know, a long magazine, the kind that would hold, you know, up to 30 rounds. They have to figure out who he is and whom among any of those companies or some other company in that building was his target.
BURNETT: And do you know, John, anything about, you know, because you had, you know, told us about those victims on the upper floors. And again, just I want everyone who happened to just be tuning in to this, the shooter is dead by what appears to be a self-inflicted gunshot wound in one of the floors in the 30s, in 345 Park Avenue. So, John, that's your reporting, but you had talked about other victims on those upper floors, and victims could have meant people who were experiencing trauma, right? Those sorts of things.
It could also mean people who were shot. Do you know what it is at this point?
MILLER: No, we don't have any further information on the nature of why they wanted those medical resources. But this all centers around the 32nd, 33rd floor, where the gunman apparently, again, this is preliminary, entered an event room. Don't know if additional shots were fired. There. And then went up a floor, and it appears, may have taken his own life.
That's all we have at this point. And of course, as Shimon pointed out, and as you suspected, with your question, given the weapon that the gunman entered with and that he fired on this officer who confronted him, the size of the round in that bullet, that officer is in very serious condition. And, that's going to be, you know, touch and go.
BURNETT: Oh, well, that officer could be what could have saved all of it, could have saved many, many lives by his actions.
But as you point out, very serious condition in Bellevue. The commissioner for the NYPD, Jessica Tisch, just has put out a message. John, I want to share it with everyone saying at this time, the scene has been contained, and the lone shooter has been neutralized.
Shimon, I don't know if you can still hear me. And there's a lot we still don't know about what happened on those upper floors. The condition of everyone there. But the speed with which the NYPD did this and the actions of that off duty officer who was working in security in the floor of that building, are truly incredible.
(INAUDIBLE)
PROKUPECZ: Now that that is that is exactly what the other security officials that are in this building. The thing is, this happened, I believe, because I started getting texts about it from friends who work nearby I think around 5:00.
Oh, sorry, guys. Sorry. Hold on. You there? Sorry.
BURNETT: Yes. That's better.
PROKUPECZ: You guys hear?
BURNETT: Yeah, better now. Yep. That's good. Got you now.
PROKUPECZ: No, you're -- you're exactly right. But I just -- I think this started. Let me just look at my text message here quickly because I think this all started just after 5:00, right. So, or maybe even 6:30.
Okay. So around 6:30, I started getting texts from friends who work nearby saying that the NYPD was swarming the Blackstone building. You know, maybe in some ways, I hate to say this, but this happening later in the day. People most people probably had left by 6:30. But still, they were still right. Certainly, a lot of people in the building.
The actions of that one officer is going to speak a lot. Once we find out more and the other actions by the officers and the way in which the NYPD has responded, this does not happen in this city often, but they trained for this and they trained for this often. And no one knows that better than John Miller.
But the response here was just enormous. Within minutes, hundreds of officers were here. And now we wait to hear those stories, and we wait to hear about the victims here and the people inside that building who, like I said, I just cannot -- I can't even begin to think about what was going through their minds.
And so many questions for people who are at home right now trying to find out how their loved ones are doing that, that is what's certainly on my mind right now.
BURNETT: Absolutely. But the NYPD commissioner, with these crucial headlines, the scene is contained. The shooter is neutralized. Absolutely incredible work in the NYPD. And this unfolding situation.
Let's pass it off to "AC360".
