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Erin Burnett Outfront

Trump Takes Over D.C. Police Department, Deploys Guard To "Reestablish Law"; Judge Skewers Trump Admin's Request To Unseal Maxwell Docs; Trump Downplays Putin Summit: "This Is Really A Feel-Out Meeting". Aired 7-8p ET

Aired August 11, 2025 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:23]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:

Breaking news, President Trump takes over the D.C. Police Department and sends in the National Guard. And he's putting more cities now on notice. Is the president breaking the law?

Plus, the president also downplaying expectations for his meeting with Putin on U.S. soil, as one question is growing tonight, is Putin even showing up?

And it's an end of an era that AOL dial-up tune. It's headed for the exits. How many people are still using it? It will surprise you. Harry Enten tells us something we didn't know.

Let's go OUTFRONT.

(MUSIC)

BOLDUAN: Good evening, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan, in for Erin Burnett.

OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, President Trump takes over. The president ordering the military to take over law enforcement in Washington, D.C. Trump saying 800 National Guard troops will be stationed in Washington. And even more if necessary.

Today, he painted a brutal picture of crime in the district.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's becoming a situation of complete and total lawlessness. They fight back until you knock the hell out of them, because it's the only language they understand. It's a disgusting thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Keep that in mind and then remember what the president said about January 6th, calling it, quote, very minor incidents. That's what he called the attack on the U.S. Capitol against law enforcement. At least 140 officers were injured. Five officers died after the insurrection on the Capitol. And then the president pardoned his supporters.

Now he's saying D.C. officers should, quote, fight back and knock the hell out of perpetrators. It's also worth noting that violent crime in Washington is actually falling dramatically. After a spike immediately following the pandemic, the violent crime rate in D.C. has been steadily going down ever since. Even one violent, even -- even one violent crime is too many, of course, but the rate is now at a 30-year low.

So why Trump is claiming this is an emergency right now, a mystery. But we do know that the president has made a centerpiece of his presidency, and before that, his campaign claims about violence in American cities, particularly Democratic ones.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The murder rate in Democrat-run cities like Chicago, Baltimore, New York and so many others is higher than in Afghanistan. You see, the crime wave even without this, you see all in Democrat-run cities.

Our country is now a cesspool of crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Just months ago, Trump sent thousands of troops into Los Angeles to quell small immigration protests. That move is still being challenged in court, the governor of California said the troops were not necessary and instead were, quote, props in the federal governments propaganda machine.

Kristen Holmes is OUTFRONT at the White House for us tonight.

Kristen, I know you've been talking to your sources there about all of this. What's Trump's plan now to actually get this done?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, remember, Kate, it's not just Trump's plan. Now, he actually has to work with Mayor Bowser, with the police chief here. They all have to work together to make this work. And it doesn't sound like they have any idea of what that's going to look like.

There has been a behind the scenes scramble, particularly on the side of the city of D.C. The mayor, the police chief all learned in real time as President Trump was announcing it that he was going to take over the D.C. police department. Now, there are questions as to how exactly that's going to work. We heard Mayor Bowser at one point talking about how she essentially left a message for the attorney general, Pam Bondi.

She was told that that's who is in charge of all of this. At one point, we know that President Trump said that both Pam Bondi was going to be in charge of the police, but also the head of the new DEA administrator, who has just been named Terry Cole, is also going to be an interim head of the police.

So right now, they are sorting through all of this, and there's still a lot of questions. I mean, one thing that was so interesting was that there was some outreach from the White House to Bowser's team, telling them that they were going to deploy the National Guard, but they didn't tell them the full scope of what it was that they wanted to do.

Now, President Trump had started this process on Thursday of last week, increasing federal law enforcement. And today was really the culmination of all of that. Now, there are other questions as to what this means going forward, not just for the city of D.C., but really across the country. You heard President Trump almost point blank saying that he was going to look at this as a model of something that he could do in potentially New York or Chicago.

Now, of course, it's going to be a lot harder to do in cities like New York and Chicago. There is kind of a gray area when it comes to D.C.

[19:05:03]

And you heard Bowser acknowledge that today because it's not a state there's a lot more that the federal government can do. But I can guarantee you right now that because I've talked to a number of Democrats who have said that behind the scenes, they're quietly conceding that there's not really much you can do in Washington, D.C. they're already looking at what they can do in other big cities, if this is to expand.

BOLDUAN: Kristen Holmes, it's good to see you. Thank you so much.

OUTFRONT with us now, Democratic Senator Paul Strauss. He represents the District of Columbia in the U.S. Senate.

Senator, thank you very much.

President Trump, so he's placing the D.C. police under federal control, deploying the National Guard, not ruling out even putting active duty troops in your city, in the district.

What do you say.

SEN. PAUL STRAUSS (D), WASHINGTON, DC SHADOW SENATOR: This is all a terrible idea. Crime has been falling, as you've pointed out. And what this is going to do is create a sense of distrust between the local community that depends on and works with the police, and it's going to make people less willing to cooperate with investigations, less willing to testify. And he's also targeting some of our most vulnerable citizens, the homeless, immigrants.

We want these people to be able to come forward if they see evidence of a crime. So things have been going well. In fact, the only problem we've had has been in the federal government's area of crime. Right now, President Trump has the authority to appoint all the judges. He appoints the prosecutor, unlike in the 50 states, and we could have had a partnership where we were improving the federal role, but instead, he's sending troops into the streets to declare war on our own people. It's just disgraceful.

BOLDUAN: So there's -- the data that we laid out, the crime stats, but there's also, when it comes especially to how you feel in your community, there's also perception. And a recent "Washington Post" poll found that 58 percent of D.C. residents think that the mayor is not doing a good job in reducing crime; 38 -- only 38 percent saying she's doing an excellent or good job. Also, there bad numbers on how they felt she was doing when it came to homelessness.

If that's how people feel, is there an argument to be made to give Trump the 30 days and see if he can do better?

STRAUSS: Not the way he's proposing it.

He is not working constructively with our law enforcement partners. What he's going to do is drive a wedge between the people who are here to supposedly protect and serve us, and the communities that they're trying to work with.

Crime has been coming down. Is it low where we want it? No, one crime is too many. Absolutely. And violent crime is particularly egregious. Nobody wants that.

But it takes a cooperative spirit between a community and a police. We want cops to be cops, just as he said. But he's going to take National Guard soldiers, other federal troops.

I have nothing but respect for the women and men who wear the uniform of our country, but they have important things to be doing instead of hanging around D.C. street corners that they don't know. They're not trained law enforcement professionals.

And the problem is not that the police aren't making arrests. The problem is we have a high judicial vacancy rate, but that's the president's fault. He's the one who gets to appoint the judges. His last appointed attorney general fired 60 career prosecutors.

We need them to be working to put the people who the police arrest and hold them accountable. This high vacancy on the federal side is what's causing the problems. It's not the D.C. police. They've been doing a good job.

Could they do better? Of course. We always want to see crime come down more.

But his plan is not going to make that happen. It's a way to blame Democrats for a problem that is not our fault and --

BOLDUAN: But, Senator, then square -- then square it with this. The D.C. Police Union put out a statement saying that it supports the presidents takeover, saying that it is necessary to address, quote, violent crime surges, historic officer shortages and eroded morale.

What's your response to that?

STRAUSS: One of the reasons right now that we have officer shortages is because the Republican controlled House of Representatives has refused to pass the appropriations bill that would restore over $1 billion in funding to the D.C. police and to the D.C. local government. Literally, it was House Republicans that voted to defund police by withholding this money, when in fact, they accused Democrats of trying to do that. That's not what we want to do. We want our police out there.

It would be great if we had real law enforcement resources that were coming in addition to our local police, but nobody believes that's what's happening. We see this as a distraction. The Trump is trying to use to take attention away from other legal problems he may be having. This is not the way to do it.

We would love to be good partners with our federal government.

[19:10:00]

They have because were not a state, a role in our criminal justice system that is unprecedented. It doesn't take place anywhere else. We want the right to elect our own prosecutor. We want the right to appoint our own judges. Frankly, we want all the rights that come from being a state.

And this shows really why D.C. statehood is a necessity, not just for political equality, but to protect our public safety.

BOLDUAN: Well, in the very short term, let's also see what the measure is that the president will set out for, what progress is if crime, the crime rate is already falling.

Senator, thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it.

STRAUSS: Thank you, Kate.

BOLDUAN: OUTFRONT -- OUTFRONT with us -- OUTFRONT with me now, Ryan Goodman, former special counsel at the Defense Department, and former Congressman Adam Kinzinger.

Congressman, why do you think Trump is doing this now?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is -- there's one reason. There's a minor reason and a major reason. The major reason is very simple, Epstein. This is -- there's the reason right now. This is an attempt to get us going after the shiny red ball. He's trying to distract from Epstein.

He could release the Epstein files literally right now. And so that's what I think is going on. And, you know, look, there was a, you know, a mugging of somebody or the -- the kid that worked for him got beat up and certainly crime --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Yeah, the attempted carjacking and assault, mm-hmm.

KINZINGER: Yeah. And certainly, crime in D.C. is bad as it is in a lot of major cities. It's gotten so much better. But this is also an attempt to just simply make himself look bigger and tougher and stronger than he really is. This is not, you know, a federal invasion of Washington D.C. They can only take over the police department for 30 days without Congress getting involved. And he already has control over the D.C. National Guard.

And so that's what this is. But he's trying to puff up his chest and make himself look. And I got to make one real quick point.

One of Donald Trump's biggest things he said about January 6th was that Nancy Pelosi and the mayor never deployed the National Guard. Donald Trump is proving right now he is actually the commander in chief of the D.C. National Guard. So that blows that argument out of the water.

BOLDUAN: There's a lot of crosscurrents here. Over the course from January 6th to now.

Ryan, is the president's takeover of D.C.'s police, is it legal?

RYAN GOODMAN, JUST SECURITY CO-EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: I don't think so.

BOLDUAN: You don't think so?

GOODMAN: No. So, he's basing it on a statute. The statute says he can take over -- he, the president of United States, can take over the Metropolitan Police if there's an emergency.

BOLDUAN: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: So, is there an emergency? If that's a -- if it's a pretext and it's not an actual emergency, then it's not legally valid.

And the executive order itself says that that's declaring a crime emergency because there's been a precipitous rise in violent crime in D.C. But the Justice Department's own statements, as of January 2025, is that there's a -- we're at a 30-year low. It's their statement.

And then subsequently, since January, it's been even lower in 2025 than it was in 2024. So that's the question.

If you think that the statistics are actually in the other direction, there's no emergency, then he doesn't really have that authority. And even the structure of the statute is to only give him that authority for 30 days. It really is about emergencies where it's kind of sudden attack. You can't really control a crime problem even in 30 days.

BOLDUAN: Thirty days.

GOODMAN: Yeah. So, it's not really situated. This is not its purpose. And I do think we might see litigation on it.

BOLDUAN: But as we've seen, litigation takes time. Likely would be up for more than 30 days.

GOODMAN: Correct.

BOLDUAN: There's this element of it as well. Congressman, you heard me speaking with the -- with Strauss just a

moment ago, and I was showing that we've got the 30-year low in terms of violent crime in D.C., but you also have this polling that came out recently where D.C. residents do not think the mayor is not -- they are not happy with how the mayors handled crime done enough to do to reduce crime, and they also she had bad numbers on handling and dealing with homelessness as well.

Just looking at it from a political and a politician standpoint of answering to your citizens, if people don't feel safe, perception does become reality, doesn't it? I mean, do you think the mayors sees that and it's informing maybe the way that she's been responding to this, which is in a really measured, careful way.

KINZINGER: Yeah. I mean, I do hope she sees it because that's absolutely right. I mean, if your people feel like you're not doing a good job, you either aren't really doing a good job or you at least have a political problem out there with people that think you are. And so, but here's the big thing. This is a -- that's a political question like any big city.

And by the way, Republicans used to be about like state's rights. And now, all of a sudden, we're all for big government. But that's what happens. Cities if they if the crime is bad. And you've seen this in so many cities and frankly, states around the country, they get rid of the person in charge. That's what elections are for.

And if we start doing things outside of elections, because Donald Trump can flex his, you know, bicep and try to make himself look tough, because inside he's really a scared person -- you know, then were really going down a dangerous path, I think.

BOLDUAN: And it's the -- it's the path forward that this could be leading to that is concerning a lot of people.

[19:15:01]

And it's not just, you know, everyone jumping ahead. President Trump is signaling that he could go further. He even said it today. Let me play this for you, Ryan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We have other cities also that are bad, very bad. You look at Chicago, how bad it is. You look at Los Angeles, how bad it is. We have other cities that are very bad. New York has a problem.

And then you have, of course, Baltimore and Oakland. We don't even mention that anymore. They're so -- they're so far gone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And L.A.'s mayor was on earlier, Karen Bass, and she said that she thinks L.A. was a test case. And D.C. is also a test case as well.

What do you think?

GOODMAN: So D.C. is in some sense, legally speaking, very, very different.

BOLDUAN: True.

GOODMAN: And Representative Kinzinger mentions it in part that the president of United States happens to be the head of the National Guard of D.C. He's not the head of the National Guard in California and all across the country. So, his legal authority is -- are very different. So, he has the ability to use the National Guard, not just in D.C., but to use them for law enforcement. We're here to do that elsewhere.

Then he runs into problems of the Posse Comitatus Act, which is being litigated right now. They had an opening of a trial in California. That's a serious problem. And so, this doesn't set a precedent in that way. But I do think it also starts to normalize the idea that the military can be used or that there can be a takeover of a police force.

So, I think that's part of the problem. But at the same time, I don't think this is so one way I disagree with Representative Kinzinger, in the sense that I don't think it's a distraction only or it's not a distraction. This is building, and the executive order that was related to L.A. riots is one that has no geographic restriction. This really is about trying to plot this towards a much more general use, potentially, of the National Guard and the military in the ways in which the president is saying it explicitly.

BOLDUAN: It's really interesting. Congressman, what do you think? I mean, when you hear Trump saying that, you know, when you see hear Trump saying that, you know, he's listing out all of the cities. I mean, he's laying it out there.

KINZINGER: Yeah. No, I fully agree. I mean, I think it's the D.C. thing is being done now as the distraction, but certainly this is part of the plan. And again, the amazing thing is how numb we get to this, right?

The president deployed the U.S. marines to L.A. Now why would he deploy U.S. marines? Because it sounds tough.

They had no ability. They were Title X. So, they were federal troops. They had no ability to do law enforcement.

And by the way, when the president activates the National Guard without the consent of the governor, D.C. is the exception. They can't do law enforcement either. They are federal Title X troops, same as the 82nd Airborne.

But what it's doing is it's normalizing. It's making us numb. And then he may do another city, and eventually we just kind of its too confusing, too much. And people quit paying attention.

BOLDUAN: Mm-hmm. It's good to see you guys. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

OUTFRONT for us next, a judge delivers a blistering blow to DOJ's bid to unseal Ghislaine Maxwell's grand jury record, speaking of the Jeffrey Epstein saga, why he is saying the judge it was all for show.

Plus, Trump is talking about a land swap with Putin. CNN is in eastern Ukraine, which could become Putin's territory if he gets his way.

And a race against time after a massive explosion at a Pennsylvania plant. Is there still a survivor under that rubble?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:22:40]

BOLDUAN: Tonight, a federal judge is calling out the Trump administration over the Epstein investigation in a blunt ruling. Judge Paul Engelmayer denied the Justice Department's request to unseal grand jury materials in the Ghislaine Maxwell case, saying that Americans would learn, quote, next to nothing new from it.

And the judge also accuses DOJ of creating the illusion of transparency, saying this -- let me read it in part. A member of the public might conclude that the government's motion for their unsealing was aimed not at transparency, but at diversion aimed not at full disclosure, but at the illusion of such.

OUTFRONT for us now, Mimi Rocah, former prosecutor for the southern district of New York and district attorney for Westchester County.

Also, Spencer Kuvin, who has represented nine different clients who have made claims against Jeffrey Epstein over the course of and represented them over the course of 20 years. He has also deposed Epstein himself.

Thanks, guys, for being here.

Spencer, did the judge just call it like it is in your view?

SPENCER KUVIN, REPRESENTED 9 CLIENTS WHO MADE CLAIMS AGAINST EPSTEIN: He absolutely did. I mean, this was from the beginning, window dressing by the administration in an attempt to distract people away from what President Trump could do today, which is sign an executive order like he did with the D.C. police. And the order should say, release all files, all videotapes, all evidence we have in the Epstein matter. It was a distraction from the get-go, and the federal judge saw right through that.

BOLDUAN: Mimi, how hard the judge went, how clearly and explicitly critical the judge was here. That stands out to you. Why?

MIMI ROCAH, FORMER SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK DIVISION CHIEF: Yeah, I mean, it's really not every day that you see a district court judge or any judge essentially say to the government, you have misled the public, which is the quote that you just referenced, Kate, that is saying government is misleading the public, and you have tried to mislead this court. In fact, the judge used the language demonstrably false when talking about the rationale that DOJ gave for supposedly releasing these grand jury proceedings, the transcripts and the exhibits.

And the judge said, no, I've looked at these, I've looked at the materials, and I've asked you to tell me what is not public.

[19:25:08]

And it's basically nothing. I mean, he said, there's a thing here and there, but nothing of substance. It is shocking, I think, and I, you know, most federal prosecutors, let alone the leadership of DOJ, would hide their head in shame at having a judge essentially question their integrity in that way. And it's happened not once but twice. It happened here. And it happened in the Adams case as well. I mean, I'm sure it's happened other times, but those are two very high-profile cases where the judges have said, you are giving misleading reasons. And I just think that's important to note.

BOLDUAN: Yeah, I mean, even though you're describing it's like the judge just eviscerated their entire legal argument. And then as you said, and importantly, question their integrity, which is -- it is really striking.

Spencer, Matt -- Ghislaine Maxwell opposed it through her attorney, opposed unsealing this grand jury testimony, even though Trump's administration said publicly that it wanted the information unsealed. And considering that she also is seeking a possible pardon from Trump, what do you think her thought process was here?

KUVIN: Well, I have no doubt that there's information in there that she probably would find embarrassing to herself. And if she's looking for a pardon or commutation of her sentence, she doesn't want that out there in the public domain, because, you know, she realizes it's going to make it more tough for the administration to give her that benefit.

But I've always said, and I believe that at the end of the day, if they get anything from Ghislaine Maxwell and if they're going to give her some kind of a commutation or a pardon, they're going to wait until the end of the administration. They're not going to do it now. It's not going to be, you know, connected with or timed with the release of any new information.

They'll wait it out until the end of Trump's term, and they'll probably if they're going to cut a deal, cut that deal so that it ends up going into place right at the end of his term. And that's it.

BOLDUAN: Mimi, Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse today sent a letter demanding answers on documents answers and documents on Maxwell being transferred to a minimum security prison after her meeting with the deputy attorney general.

I want to -- I want to read what the White House says in part about this. "Against the backdrop of the political scandal arising from President Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, Ms. Maxwells abrupt transfer raises questions about whether she has been given special treatment in exchange for political favors."

What do you think of this?

KUVIN: Yeah --

(CROSSTALK)

ROCAH: Absolutely, is --

BOLDUAN: Mimi, go ahead.

KUVIN: Sorry for interrupting.

BOLDUAN: It's okay.

ROCAH: It absolutely raises questions, red flags, all of the above. And this is very appropriate for congress to be looking into it. I mean, this is 100 percent an oversight function because this would not have happened under -- I don't even want to say normal circumstances. I cannot think of really any circumstance where someone convicted of being a child predator, would be transferred to this kind of, you know, minimum security facility, so early in their term ever, but certainly so early in their term.

And then on top of it, so close to the timing of the meeting with the deputy attorney general. So, there are red flags everywhere. This is definitely something that is within Congress's,, I think, responsibility to look at why and how this happened.

BOLDUAN: Mimi Rocah, Spencer Kuvin, thank you both very much.

OUTFRONT for us next, Trump downplaying expectations for his U.S. summit with Putin. This as we are learning new details from inside Moscow, why some are now betting that Putin won't even show up.

And the world is saying goodbye to a sound that defined a generation.

(BEGIN AUIDIO CLIP)

VOICE: Welcome. Youve got mail.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:33:51]

BOLDUAN: So, tonight, President Trump is already downplaying expectations for his Putin meeting on U.S. soil this week. Despite promising to end the war in Ukraine on day one, President Trump is now saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: This is really a feel out meeting a little bit. And President Putin invited me to get involved. There will be some land swapping going on. I know that through Russia and through conversations with everybody to the good -- for the good of Ukraine. Good stuff, not bad stuff. Also, some bad stuff for both.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: This is some are asking, is Putin even going to show up at this point? We'll get to that question in a moment.

But first, here's Nick Paton Walsh in eastern Ukraine with a story you'll see first on OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When President Trump talks about what parts of Ukraine, to, quote, swap with Russia, this is ground zero -- real towns where bomb shelters loom over beaches.

MYKHAILO, SLOVIANSK RESIDENT: I feel like I just float away from this reality.

WALSH: Here in Donetsk region, diplomacy has turned dark and surreal and threatens local journalist Mykhailo's medicinal swim.

[19:35:02]

What do you think about the idea of Trump and Putin meeting so far away in Alaska and deciding the fate of a place like this?

MYKHAILO: We all -- people I know will have to leave but frankly speaking, I don't think it's going to happen.

WALSH: Beaches, births and deaths, they all persist in ravaged Sloviansk. They've dug defenses around it to stop a Russian military advance, but never imagined high level diplomacy might just give their town and future away. Staying here has been, for many an act of defiance and bravery.

But for Sviatoslav and Natalia, it did not spare them pain. This is their daughter Sofia, with her husband Mikita and the grandson lev. They moved to Kyiv for safety. But 11 days ago, a horrific dawn Russian airstrike killed them and 28 others in Kyiv. Their three bodies found together in the rubble.

NATALIA HAPONOVA, SOFIA'S MOTHER: They left from the war and it was quiet there. And you see, how it is in Sloviansk. But the war caught them there.

SVIATOSLAV HAPONOV, SOFIA'S FATHER: To come to terms with that as a person is impossible. Impossible to come to terms with the loss of children.

WALSH: They had been due to visit days later, bringing news that Sofia was three months pregnant.

Do you remember the last time you spoke? HANOPOVA: Yes, it was 8:30 p.m. and she called. She really wanted to

come to Sloviansk to tell everyone the good news. But they didn't come. They arrived in a different way. All together.

WALSH: They came together to be buried on the town's outskirts, where the war permits. No calm for grief.

Ukrainian jet roars overhead.

At the nearest train station, Kramatorsk. As many are coming as are going. Serhiy was allowed two days off from his tank unit to see Tetyana, his wife. Sirens greet the Kyiv train.

SERHIY, SOLDIER: Four years of war, how do you think it is? It would have been better if she had not come. Calm down --

TETYANA, SOLDIER'S WIFE: I just want him to stay alive and come home.

WALSH: A deal could potentially give this bustling town over to the Russians after them fighting for it for so many years and failing to take it. So many lives lost here and those traumas born out on this platform, every time a train comes in.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Kramatorsk, Ukraine.

(END IVDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: Nick, thank you so much for that.

OUTFRONT with us now is Christo Grozev. He's an investigative journalist who's been on Putin's wanted list, and Brett McGurk, he served four presidents, including Trump and in national security roles.

Gentlemen, good to see you. Thank you for coming in.

Brett, we're now four days out from the summit. And Trump is saying that he's going -- he's going there to take the temperature of Putin. I mean, you and I have talked about every single deadline that Trump has set and passed it by, and now it's feeling it out? I mean, what does that say to you?

BRETT MCGURK, FORMER MIDDLE EAST & NORTH AFRICA COORDINATOR, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Yeah, Kate, we have been talking for almost seven months about this diplomacy. Is it - is it all motion or is it movement towards the objective that Trump, I think, rightly set very early in his presidency, a ceasefire. And in March, the Ukrainians said unconditional ceasefire, we agree.

Secretary of State Rubio said at that time Russian reciprocity is the key to peace. There were fits and starts. Last month, President Trump said again, there has to be a ceasefire or else he put a deadline on Putin.

And now we seem to have a summit setting up, with Putin wriggling out of that. And there's a saying in diplomacy, sometimes overused, that if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And this is shaping up potentially here. If the two leaders are looking at a map with swaps of land in eastern Europe, that is exactly what Putin wants. That is the imagery he wants.

I would strongly recommend sometimes just keep it simple. The outcome here has to be a ceasefire. Either Putin is going to stop the war or sign up for a ceasefire along the line of contact, and then we can talk about the end game, but without a ceasefire. I think this is really playing into Putin's hands.

BOLDUAN: And, Christo, you think it's an open question right now if Putin even shows up to this summit and it's rooted in something that back in May you warned about on this show. What's going on here?

[19:40:00]

CHRISTO GROZEV, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, I mean, we talked about the fact that back in May, we saw the presidential special envoy for negotiation with Russia at large, Mr. Witkoff appeared without an interpreter, without his own translator to a meeting with Putin and, head of intelligence agencies of Russia and, the interpreter at the time was somebody who was actually an employee of Russia's intelligence service, the foreign service, foreign intelligence service, and obviously something like that leaves open the possibility for misunderstanding, for manipulation, for lack of nuance in gathering the exact meaning of the opposite sides proposal.

What we've seen in the last two days is total confusion about what exactly was said, what exactly may have been proposed by Putin in that meeting. Now, whether that was the result of misunderstanding by Mr. Witkoff of what he heard or what was translated to him, or in a confusion of what he passed on to President Trump, it is a fact that multiple European leaders have heard conflicting messages about what was really proposed and most importantly, that those messages are conflicted by their own intelligence reporting from Moscow about what is even possible for Putin to report.

So, with all of that confusion, clearly somebody is at fault here for causing the misunderstanding and showing up unprepared for a meeting. Whether in Moscow or in Alaska is going to be recipe for more confusion.

BOLDUAN: Christo, real quick, I mean, it seems I'm no -- I'm no envoy or a diplomat, but it seems like special envoy 101. Like, make sure you get the message right of what is being offered. Bring your own interpreter and maybe a pen and pad like this seems kind of outrageous.

GROZEV: Well, it is. I mean, again, as I said back in May, I used to be an interpreter at important meetings, and I know that every nod, every wink, every hint, every even the intonation of what the interpreter, that such important high-stake meetings says or does not convey is going to influence the outcome.

But I think, if I may just address something else that you just brought up, I mean, it's if we treat this, if we take President Trump's new, sort of announcement of this meeting as a feel out session, this is exactly what would make Putin show up at this meeting, because the worst thing for Putin to have to confront at this meeting is actually a set of hard demands on behalf of the United States, of something that he has to accept in real time. And I think once it's called the feel out meeting, Putin will show up. Most likely because it will achieve at least two goals of the checklist that Putin wants to have.

One is the end to his international isolation, which is something that still drags on his domestic reputation. He's never been invited to any country outside of the global south in since the start of the war. And this will be a precedent that really gives him a lot of weaponized leverage.

And the second thing is going to cause even more rift with the European partners, with the European NATO partners. And these two things would be perfectly achieved by him being invited just for a coffee that ends in nothing. If he's confronted with a set of hard conditions by the United States, that would most likely be the reason for him to not even show up.

And I think in the next couple of days, he'll be analyzing the people around him, will be analyzing what is the mood in Washington? Is he more likely to be confronted with a soft or with a hard set of rules for this negotiation?

BOLDUAN: Brett, when you hear the president talking about there's going to be land swaps, some of its going to be good, some of its going to be bad for both. And we inch closer to this summit. I mean, do you see a scenario that there is a land swap deal that can be seen as a positive or a win for Ukraine.

MCGURK: In the end, Kate, and the end game of this war, to have a just resolution of the war. There will be some resolution along the line of contact regarding land. We all know that. But what the Russians want to do is to continue to prosecute, prosecute the war with a free hand.

I would say another thing. You know, the White House and the president here should not be afraid of a failed summit, a failed summit in which you actually do lay out. Here's what we need that can actually set the conditions for peace. And, you know, the president hung a portrait of Ronald Reagan behind the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office.

When Reagan went to Reykjavik in 1986, he wanted to deal with Gorbachev. Gorbachev demanded one thing, to stop pursuing the Star Wars missile defense system, which Reagan said, absolutely not. And it was a failed summit. Remember those images? They walked out very grim and dour face.

And it looked like here we are, increasing tensions, height of the Cold War, heading into a midterm election. But in fact, historians have looked back at that and said that summit actually set the conditions for historic arms control deals and treaties. So don't be afraid of a summit that doesn't look in the imagery and the performative aspect of it. You don't get what you want. I think we have to be clear. The

president's policy has been clear for seven months. Ceasefire. Let's stop the war, stop the killing, and then talk about the maps and the resolution for a just resolution of this terrible war.

[19:45:07]

Keep it simple. That's the objective. I don't think Putin will take it, but I think President Trump should draw a very firm line here.

BOLDUAN: Fascinating. Keeping it simple. I mean, there seems nothing simple about it, but your point is exactly that it has to be as simple as it is. Stop the killing and then you can talk.

It's great to have you both. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

And for more of Brett's analysis, he's setting up right there on this high stakes summit, you can check out his latest piece that just published on CNN.com.

OUTFRONT for us next, new images from the fiery blast at a U.S. steel plant. Now, a search for signs of life under the rubble. We're on the ground.

Plus, it's how we all stayed connected in the '90s.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HANKS, ACTOR: You've got mail.

MEG RYAN, ACTRESS: Yes.

HANKS: It's a very powerful words.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: But tonight, AOL is announcing it's finally getting rid, finally getting rid of dial-up Internet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:50:11]

BOLDUAN: More breaking news, officials are racing against the clock to find a person still trapped in the rubble after a deadly explosion at a U.S. steel plant in Pennsylvania. The stunning moment of the explosion. You're going to see it here. It was caught on camera.

One person is confirmed dead. Ten other people were injured, including one who was rescued from the rubble.

Gabe Cohen is OUTFRONT at the site of the explosion in Clairton, Pennsylvania.

Gabe, it's a startling scene when you see the aftermath, and they're still trying to determine what caused the explosion?

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Kate. They are.

We don't know what the cause is at this point. We heard officials earlier this afternoon from U.S. Steel say that as far as they could tell, as of this morning, the facility was in good working condition. So, there are investigators at the scene trying to figure out what's going on.

And as you can see from the first responder vehicles behind me, it is still an active scene because there's this search and rescue operation happening as crews are still looking for one unaccountable worker who they haven't been able to locate, somewhere here in the disaster zone. We know that close to a dozen others were injured.

One other was pulled from the rubble earlier this afternoon after they were inside the facility for hours trapped, which was just miraculous. Kate, of several of those people have now been released from the hospital, but we're still waiting to get so much information because this search and rescue operation isn't done yet.

BOLDUAN: It seems like such a massive site as well. I mean, you also just learned new details about -- about who was killed in this. What have you learned?

COHEN: That's right. Kate, I just spoke with the sister of Timothy Quinn, the 39-year-old worker who she confirmed died this morning in the blast. She said he is -- he was a father of three, someone who lit up the room, who loved his family dearly. He was a caregiver to their mother. He loved fishing, she said, and obviously a family grieving tonight, searching for answers.

They were so frustrated, his sister said it took them hours to learn that it was Timothy who had actually died. They were calling around to hospitals across the Pittsburgh area. Finally, they did receive that official word. Now they want to know what happened.

BOLDUAN: And so many people do in that search continues tonight.

Gabe, thank you so much for being there.

OUTFRONT for us next, we all know the sound.

(DIAL-UP SOUND)

BOLDUAN: Now, AOL is getting rid of dial up for good. Are you wondering how many Americans are even still using it? Harry Enten is next to tell us something we don't know.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:57:01]

BOLDUAN: Yes. Nostalgia. The end of an era.

AOL is pulling the plug on dial up, the service that introduced most households to the Internet. With that nostalgic delightful beaming and screeching. It's being discontinued after 30 years.

And Harry Enten is here to tell us something that we don't know. And I thought I knew everything about this, and I actually was surprised that the plug hadn't already been pulled.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: No, the plug --

BOLDUAN: How many people still using dial up?

ENTEN: I -- look, at least as of 2023, we're talking about like 163,000 households that are still using it in the United States. That's not nothing there.

BOLDUAN: No, it is not.

ENTEN: It's about 0.1 percent. But a lot of folks still would be able to hear that nice little dial up tone. And I got to tell you, when I hear that tone, it just brings back such a rush of childhood, the magic of being able to go online and connect with the outside world from an otherwise boring house that I lived in.

BOLDUAN: No, don't you remember you wait for the excitement you actually feel as it was connecting every time you'd be like, I don't think it's going to work.

ENTEN: But it did every time, basically.

BOLDUAN: How big was AOL in the heyday?

ENTEN: Yeah. So, you know, we talk about 163,000 households that still have dial up at least as of two years ago. But back in the heyday, I mean, how many households still had AOL? I mean, look at this. Back in 2002, we're talking about 27 million were using AOL dial up usage.

And I was one of them. I think I used it as late as like 2007 when I was connecting up through a hotel room, because it was actually cheaper than paying for the Wi-Fi in the hotel. And I didn't want to make my father be stuck with the bill.

BOLDUAN: Oh, that sounds very you, by the way.

ENTEN: Yes.

BOLDUAN: If anyone knows Harry Enten, that sounds very -- AOL, iconic, so iconic it inspired one of my favorite movies, you've got mail, with Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan, giving me the perfect opportunity to play clip.

ENTEN: Fantastic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN: I only know him through the -- you're not going to believe this.

HANKS: Oh, let me guess, through the Internet?

RYAN: Yes.

HANKS: You've got mail.

RYAN: Yes.

HANKS: It's a very powerful words.

RYAN: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: I mean, I love Meg Ryan. Tell me something I don't know.

ENTEN: I'll tell you a few things you don't know. Number one, huge fan of "You've Got Mail". Huge fan. I still watch it any chance I get.

But more than that, I'm not alone in watching it. You know, I think it's so important to note how successful that film was. You know, talk about domestic box office, talk about rom coms.

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

ENTEN: Take a look back since you've got mail came out late in 1998, you talk about the top five grossing rom coms since that period. Look at that. "My Big Fat Greek Wedding", "What Women Want", "Runaway Bride", "Hitch," which I know you're a huge fan.

BOLDUAN: Huge "Hitch" fan.

ENTEN: And "You've Got Mail", which to me is still iconic. I still love it. I still love Meg Ryan, I still love Tom Hanks. I still love the golden retriever coming out. And that's how she knew that, of course, Tom Hanks was her beau to be.

BOLDUAN: Beau to be. And she actually always inspired me. I always wanted to own a bookstore after seeing that movie, because that's what Meg Ryan want.

ENTEN: Maybe one day.

BOLDUAN: Yeah, maybe one day.

Harry, one last thing, because we decided to have a little fun, friends --

VOICE: Goodbye.

BOLDUAN: Had to do it.

ENTEN: There you go.

BOLDUAN: Love you. Thank you.

Thank you all so much for joining us today. I'm Kate Bolduan.

"AC360" starts now. VOICE: Goodbye.