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Erin Burnett Outfront

Judge Blasts Trump Team's Bid To Unseal Epstein Docs: "Diversion"; Newsom One Step Closer To New Map, Vows To "Fight Fire With Fire"; Hurricane Erin About To Unleash The Sea On The East Coast. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired August 20, 2025 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:24]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:

A federal judge calling out Trump, saying his administration's push to unseal Epstein grand jury transcripts wouldn't lead to new information, calling the lead to new information, calling the request a diversion, as we learn for the first time, the surprisingly few documents that team Trump was trying to release to the public.

Plus, trolling Trump with his playbook. California Governor Gavin Newsom tweeting in all caps, referring to himself in the third person. Will it work?

And the Target CEO is out. The man who led a nationwide boycott against the company for its DEI rollbacks is our guest.

Let's go OUTFRONT.

Good evening, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan, in for Erin Burnett.

OUTFRONT tonight, a federal judge calling out President Trump over the Epstein investigation. After weeks of unrelenting pressure from the MAGA base, the Trump administration told supporters it was taking action, playing up its decision to push for the release of Epstein grand jury transcripts. Well, tonight, Judge Richard Berman is ripping off the fig leaf, denying the Trump administration of its attempt to appear transparent. The judge saying there was nothing really in those transcripts.

The ruling reads this in part: The instant grand jury motion appears to be a diversion from the breadth and scope of the Epstein files in the government's possession. The grand jury testimony is merely a hearsay snippet of Jeffrey Epstein's alleged conduct.

He calls it a snippet. And that snippet we now know from this opinion is just 70 pages out of what he says, in his opinion, is the 100,000 pages that are right now in the Justice Department's hands. That is 0.07 percent of the information that is available. And that includes the testimony when you're talking about the grand jury transcripts of just one witness, an FBI agent who the judge has said had no direct knowledge of the facts in the case. Berman went on to note that it is the Justice Department that could

release the vast majority of the Epstein files without needing permission. Files that we know mention Donald Trump's name multiple times. He has not been accused of any wrongdoing regarding Jeffrey Epstein, but it does make you wonder why are they still then holding out?

For weeks, you've been told that the president and his administration wants transparency, full stop.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: President Trump has demanded full transparency from this.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Trump administration is committed to truth and transparency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Truth and transparency. Except that is not what they're offering.

Instead, Trump has been dangling grand jury transcripts really, as the end all, be all. Just listen to the way he first called -- he first called for the release of the files. It was July 17th, weeks after his base started pounding the table, wanting more, refusing to let the Epstein investigation go.

And Trump writes this, "Based on the ridiculous amount of publicity given to Jeffrey Epstein, I have asked Attorney General Pam Bondi to produce any and all pertinent grand jury testimony, subject to court approval. This scam, perpetrated by Democrats should end right now."

Two minutes later, Attorney General Pam Bondi, the loyal soldier, responded online, saying this president Trump, we are ready to move the court -- move to -- ready to move the court tomorrow to unseal the grand jury transcripts.

Trump's decision to drag this out, it is not going over well with some of the very people who helped Donald Trump get elected, like podcaster Joe Rogan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard is a -- is a Democratic hoax. That's --

JOE ROGAN, PODCASTER: Yeah. I don't think that's true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But --

ROGAN: Well, it's certainly not a hoax if you go to jail. Certainly not a hoax if Ghislaine Maxwell's in jail, too. So, like, she's in jail for sex trafficking.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BOLDUAN: Kristen Holmes, OUTFRONT live at the White House for us tonight.

Kristen, today gave us yet another sign that this story is not going away as long as the administration refuses to release the Epstein files that they can.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Kate. And they are really hoping that this story will die down. They have been pleased relatively, for the last couple of weeks, because it hasn't been the dominating headline. We know that they had a very hard time actually getting a grip on this story, particularly because so many of the people calling for the release were his own supporters, so they spent most of their time on the defensive.

When you talk about it not going away, this is just one aspect that's not going away. We know that on Friday there's likely to be a tranche of documents related to the Epstein case that is given over to Congress, the House Oversight Committee. And that's just the beginning of those documents from the Department of Justice.

Now, how those will be handled by the Republican led committee. That's obviously a big question, but I can tell you there is nothing that James Comer does that he doesn't brief the White House on and have conversations with the White House about before he does anything.

[19:05:08]

That is something that we know. We know they're in constant communication. He is, of course, the leader of the House Oversight Committee. So, we'll see how this goes in terms of transparency. But one thing to note, they were calling for transparency. They were at one point talking about potentially releasing the transcripts from Todd Blanche's interview with Ghislaine Maxwell.

It has now been weeks. They have not released that. Now, I was told in part that was because they were waiting for this story to die down. But again, now we're seeing more documents potentially coming to light on Friday. We're hearing from this judge.

This is a story. They want to go away, but it's just not going to go away because there are so many people, including, again, President Trump's own supporters, who want more information, who want more transparency, who want to read some of these documents around the case, Kate.

BOLDUAN: And it is just it is their words that are coming back to haunt them for months and months now of what they said they wanted to see done. And now it is in their power to do. And they are not.

Kristen, thank you.

OUTFRONT with us now is Democratic Congresswoman Summer Lee. She is on the House Oversight Committee Kristen was just talking about and was a driving force behind subpoenaing the Epstein files from the Justice Department. Congressman, thank you for coming in.

So, what do you first make of this judge's ruling rejecting the Trump administrations bid to release these grand jury documents and the way he talked about it?

REP. SUMMER LEE (D-PA): Yeah, we're not surprised by that, right? At the end of the day, we have a -- we have a way of getting all of the information, all of the details that the American public wants that, truly bipartisan. There are Dems and Republicans who want it and that, you know, justice demands. And that's through the DOJ.

That's the DOJ. We subpoena them. They are able to release and should and have been commanded to release all the files complete, full, unredacted. And that includes the underlying evidence of this case.

So that would be included in our subpoena. So, this actually doesn't impact, the subpoena. The subpoena is where we're going to get all of our answers.

BOLDUAN: Yesterday was the deadline for the Justice Department to comply with the subpoena that has come and gone, which, you know, without any files. Please tell me if you've received them quite yet. What, if anything, have you actually heard from DOJ is actually going to happen?

LEE: Yeah. So, you know, we heard the same thing that you did. Comer, of course, issued the subpoena. And in it, there was this two-week deadline. Right? The DOJ comes back this week and they say that they're going to start to slow, trickle in. Some of the information, some of the files starting on Friday.

Now, what we know is of course that's obstruction. Right. This is a further obstruction of justice. Right. We the subpoena gave a deadline. It gave a deadline. And it was called it called for again, full, complete, unredacted file.

So, their unwillingness to release that all at once, it continues to just raise more questions. More questions. What are they trying to hide, right? What is the big cover up and why are they not able to do this, right?

Pam Bondi herself said she had the files weeks and weeks ago, so we know that they exist. We know that they're complete and we know that they could just hand them over, but they keep drawing this out, which, mind you, is causing further damage to the hundreds of victims who are having to relive this, who are seeing this play out in the news, who are who's watching their president the FBI, the intelligence community, all seem to be a part of a massive cover up at the level of, quite frankly, Watergate.

BOLDUAN: But do you have any idea who is deciding what your committee does and doesn't get? Who is deciding what is redacted, how it is redacted, and what documents are going to be coming over in this first? You know, one of my least favorite words in the world in this first tranche, like, do that seems critical in terms of what you're going to get. And is the public going to see it right away?

LEE: Yeah, I mean, we recognize that this is a Trump-led DOJ. We knew that going into this, right. We recognize how influential he is. Over all of, you know, over his over his federal government, over his executive branch right now. So we always knew that there was a strong possibility that the DOJ, that Trump, that all of the people around him would try to, you know, obstruct, try to, you know -- you know, basically push this off or demure, all that we expected that.

Who's going to and who's in control of it. We don't know. But what we can say is, is that the subpoena was very specific in its language, that subpoena asked for unredacted files. It was voted on properly in the federal law enforcement subcommittee with bipartisan support. So, the only things, only names that should be redacted in these files that they are to give over to the oversight committee, are the names of victims anything more than that? They are going against the subpoena. It is a legal order. And they're -- and they're breaking it.

BOLDUAN: Congresswoman, Friday is going to come. Please come back on, when -- when we need to know what the next move is.

[19:10:04]

LEE: We'll let you know. Of course, we don't expect the public to get them immediately, but when we get them, we'll let you know, and we'll keep people up on this.

BOLDUAN: Congresswoman Lee, thank you for your time.

OUTFRONT with me now, Attorney Arick Fudali. He represents 11 of the Epstein victims, and that was the one thing important that the congresswoman point out, and everyone point out that the one thing that needs to be protected in this is the victims. And that is one thing that you have been fighting to protect all along.

First, on this ruling, when the judge accuses the Trump administration of diversion, here, is that how you would describe what this is?

ARICK FUDALI, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING 11 EPSTEIN ACCUSERS: Absolutely. And Judge Berman said it better than I could. But yeah, this is exactly what this is. This is a diversion. This is a distraction.

The easiest and most transparent thing for this administration to do would just be to release the files, redact the names of the victims, release the entire files to the public. Anything short of that is suspicious. Anything short of that is not enough.

So, for instance, the DOJ speaking to Ghislaine Maxwell, which results in her going to a minimum security prison, which is just absurd. Trying to subpoena the grand jury records, which any competent attorney knows is a very high bar and is likely to fail.

So that is all just a distraction. It's a diversion. It's designed to make it look like this administration is being transparent, when in fact they are being anything but. BOLDUAN: They've now had three federal judges saying, no, you can't.

And so now they really are facing and the committee is being promised that they're going to get some documents from the Justice Department's files, 100,000 documents material is what Judge Berman says they have.

Are you at all concerned or nervous about what these documents? I don't know, mean or could reveal about your clients?

FUDALI: I'm confident that they'll be able to redact these documents appropriately. What I'm more worried about is them hiding documents. Remember, we're trusting the Trump DOJ here to give all of the documents and be transparent about what they give this committee.

That concerns me, because so far, there has been nothing but secrecy. There has been nothing but suspicion. Theres been nothing but the avoidance of being transparent from this administration. And Jeffrey -- and Jeffrey Epstein continues to be protected even beyond the grave. The victims continue to be exploited.

So, no, I'm not so concerned that there's not going to be appropriate redactions. However, I'm very concerned about whether there will actually be true production of the full file and true transparency.

BOLDUAN: You told me last week on the show, as you just said, and it has stuck with me. I said it today when I knew you were coming back on that. Jeffrey Epstein is like the only person in history who got special treatment. And even beyond the grave continues to get special treatment.

Last night, a federal prison consultant was on this show. He had clients at the same prison that Ghislaine Maxwell was just moved to.

I want to play his -- their description from one client who has since gotten out of prison. Just listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM MANGEL, FEDERAL PRISON CONSULTANT: She pointed out that she was warned point blank not to discuss Ms. Maxwell in any form or fashion, whether that's email or over the phone, both of which, keep in mind, are monitored forms of communication. I've never heard of this where inmates are being told under no circumstances are you to discuss any aspect of Ms. Maxwell being here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Do you now see this as a sign that Ghislaine Maxwell is getting special treatment?

FUDALI: Absolutely I do, it is appalling. And frankly, I'm running out of adjectives to describe how absurd it is for Ghislaine Maxwell to be in a minimum-security prison. I'd love to remind the public, and I think the media, that she was convicted of child sex trafficking, perhaps one of the most heinous crimes we have here in the United States and around the world. She was actually convicted of tricking 14-year-old girls, grooming

them to be raped by Jeffrey Epstein. That's why she was put behind bars. The fact that she has gotten anything, but the most severe possible punishment is an absolute travesty of justice.

She should be in the most maximum security prison where child sex traffickers belong. This reeks of suspicion. This is just it's so appalling. It's such a slap in the face to the victims who finally thought they had seen true justice. When Ghislaine Maxwell was convicted, because she's been the only person Jeffrey Epstein got to, you know, kill himself and avoid accountability. Everyone in Epstein circles has been able to avoid accountability, except for Ghislaine Maxwell.

And now, what happens? The victims have to watch as she's paraded into a minimum security resort from what I'm hearing about it.

BOLDUAN: The way that prison consultant had described it was shocking to me to hear. It's very good to see you. Thank you so much for coming in. I really appreciate it.

OUTFRONT next, California Governor Gavin Newsom meeting Trump with Trump, posting insults, memes and most importantly, posting an all caps. Has Donald Trump finally met his match in this?

Plus, we have breaking news. Conditions are quickly deteriorating along parts of the East Coast. Hurricane Erin moves dangerously close, beaches in the Northeast already closed.

[19:15:01]

We're going to take you to the ground.

And J.D. Vance booed and heckled during a photo op to defend deploying the National Guard to patrol D.C.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: The breaking news, California Governor Gavin Newsom on the brink of ushering in a new congressional district map that gives Democrats an advantage in the state and is an answer to the redistricting plan Texas Republicans are pushing through, which at this hour is now one step closer to becoming a reality.

It's part of Newsom's new strategy, fight fire with fire as he says, when it comes to all things, Trump.

[19:20:04]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: He doesn't care about the Republican Party. He took it over. He's an invasive species.

The Republican Party is -- it doesn't even reflect itself. I mean, look at -- look at these Republicans cowering to this guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Tom Foreman is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The strongest wall Trump ever built is his bronzer line. He's low energy. The best friend of Vladimir Putin. From cracks about Trump's stumbling to digs about the Texas redistricting plan, California Governor Gavin Newsom is imitating the toxic social media game Trump pioneered in politics, and he's hammering the president and his party in the process.

NEWSOM: Right now, with all due respect, we're walking down a different path. We're fighting fire with fire, and we're going to punch these sons of in the mouth.

TRUMP: Little Marco. Elizabeth Pocahontas Warren. I call her crooked Hillary.

NEWSOM: Trump built his political brand on schoolyard taunts. And now, Newsom's social media feed is full of references to Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt, Vice President J.D. just dance Vance, House Speaker Little Man Johnson, while calling Trump little hands, Donny J., the criminal president and Donald TACO Trump for Trump always chickens out.

He's even taken Trump's all caps style and catchphrase. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

DANA PERINO, FOX NEWS HOST: Stop it with the Twitter thing.

FOREMAN: Conservative media, which has long cheered Trump trolling the left, is coming unspooled over Newsom ridiculing the right.

PERINO: If I were his wife, I would say, what? You are making a fool of yourself. Stop it. Do not -- do not let your staff tweet. And if you're doing it yourself, put the phone away and start over.

FOREMAN: Newsom's response -- they still don't get it.

NEWSOM: If you've got issues with what I'm putting out, you sure as hell should have concerns about what he's putting out as president. How have we allowed the normalization of his tweets through social posts over the course of the last many years to go without similar scrutiny and notice.

FOREMAN: In the wake of the Los Angeles wildfires, the governor and president were briefly civil.

TRUMP: We've got to get it done.

FOREMAN: But with the White House having sent troops into California over immigration protests with almost every post, Newsom is making it clear the niceties are over. NEWSOM: It's not about whether we play hardball anymore. It's about

how we play hardball.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN (on camera): You remember when Trump put out that that message at one point to the Russians saying, you know, if you're -- if you're looking into Hillary Clinton's emails, that'd be great. We'd love to see them. Newsom had a message, a post on that as well, where he basically said, hey, Russia, if you're looking around, we'd all like to see the Epstein files.

That is absolutely clearly getting so under the skin of team Trump. And an awful lot of people who oppose Donald Trump are just loving it -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yeah, people are eating it up that oppose Donald Trump. I mean, it is quite something to see the time they're putting into these posts from the Newsom team.

Good to see you, Tom. Thank you.

OUTFRONT with me now, Marc Short and Kate Bedingfield, two of my favorite people. Thanks for being here.

Kate, has Trump met his match in Newsom?

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think there are two things that are really effective about what Newsom is doing here. I mean, one, well, I guess three, because one, he's really getting under the skin of Trump supporters, which in that sense, yeah, I would say Trump has met his match.

But there are two things that he's doing here that are effective. One, he is underscoring just how absurd and corrosive Trump's style is. I mean, you had Dana Perino there arguing that these kinds of tweets are beneath the governor of California. Well, if they're beneath the governor of California, they're certainly beneath the president of the United States. So he is exposing that in a really effective way, underscoring it in a really effective way.

And then secondly, he's just -- he's giving Democrats who felt demoralized by the results in November, a shot in the arm. He's just -- he's piercing Trump's armor, his kind of sense of strength. And for Democrats who've been looking for that jolt, for that energy, they're drawing it from this.

So, I think what he's doing in the short term here is quite effective.

BOLDUAN: And he's just the thing about it is, Marc, it's like he's unapologetic about it. He's just like, I'm not -- I'm not having any of this at all. I mean, Michelle Obama famously advised Democrats to be above it, though the when they go low, we go high moment and message. Newsom is very clearly taking a different approach and basically saying, when you go low, were going to keep on punching or just hold a mirror up so you can see it. As you watch Newsom go at Trump on social media, space that Donald Trump has long dominated, do you think Newsom could beat Trump at his own game here?

MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I'm not sure that he could. Kate, I think that Donald Trump actually likes having a foil, but I'm also not sure that's what he's after. I think in this, he's actually separating himself from the '28 field this early, and I think that he's getting a ton of attention right now. He's gaining a lot of followers.

And so, for him inside Democrat politics, this plays extremely well.

[19:25:02]

Certainly, Donald Trump is the object of a lot of his tweets. But I think the strategy behind it is really more internal to separate himself inside the Democrat field.

BOLDUAN: That's so interesting.

Kate, Newsom today said that what's changed here is that, as he says, he's sick of being weak. Let me play this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWSOM: Yes, I've changed. The facts have changed. We need to change. And we need to stand up to this authoritarian. We need to stand up at this moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Is he right? And, I mean, is he going about it the right way?

BEDINGFIELD: Well, I think he's right in the sense that the way he's responding, for example, to what the Republicans are doing in Texas by taking a stance in California, by using his executive powers in the state of California. And now he's going to put this to the people of California to vote but doing what he can to combat what the Republicans are trying to do in Texas. Yes, I think that is -- that is smart. That is a good use of his executive authority in this moment.

For the long term, I think, as we -- Mark mentioned 2028, obviously, as we think about 2028 being the most intensely anti-Trump candidate, I think is incredibly motivating for voters, Democratic voters right now. It is only one piece of the puzzle for what is going to be successful for whoever becomes the Democratic nominee in 2028, and we're going to need to hear about their vision for the country, their -- what they would do as president of United States, their proactive agenda.

So, this one piece of what Newsom is doing right now, very energizing for the Democratic base in this moment, but for the long term, for 2028, there are a lot of other factors that are going to go into making the Democrats successful. BOLDUAN: I also say in California, this also goes to the voters in

November. I mean, there is a risk level here that if this gets rejected, I mean, that's kind of deflating to this whole were going after it and were responding to Republicans in Texas, but that's still months away, plenty can happen.

Marc, the Vice President J.D. Vance, he faced a like a wall of loud protests in D.C. today as he they staged a photo op, a lunch to thank the national guard, some of the national guard troops that had deployed to that were deployed to D.C. as part of the federal takeover. Just -- here's a little bit of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BOOS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: They may also be benefiting from the acoustics there. To be fair. But, Vance, I want to play said this about those protesters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I think you hear these guys out outside here screaming at us. Of course, these are a bunch of crazy protesters. But I'll tell you, a couple of years ago, when I brought my kids here, they were being screamed at by violent vagrants, and it was scaring the hell out of my kids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Is this -- is that Vance capitalizing on the moment? Is that him winning the moment?

SHORT: Look, I think that it's good that he went to visit the National Guard. I think it's actually a winning issue for a lot of Republicans to show us cleaning up D.C. and protecting against crime. I think it's unfortunate that he gets protested when he's duly elected vice president.

But I also think its incumbent upon him in that role to also respect that these are American citizens, too, and not get back in the back and forth and name-calling. So, I think he should rise above it. But look, I think it's also unfortunate when the vice president of United States is booed in a public format like that.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. Something that I know that that you had to deal with when pence, when I think it was in 2016 with Pence, but a very different time, very different circumstances about it all for sure.

SHORT: Our politics are more coarse today. But at that time, as you said, when he was protesting at Hamilton, he said, that's what freedom sounds like. And I think that was Vice President Pence's difference in the way that he would receive criticism like that.

BOLDUAN: I would say. So it's good to see you, Marc. Great to see you, Kate. Thank you both very much.

SHORT: Thanks, Kate.

BEDINGFIELD: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: OUTFRONT next, Hurricane Erin churning off the east coast, whipping up life threatening rip currents and really pushing some massive waves now. We're going to take you to the ground where conditions are getting worse by the hour.

Plus, Target CEO out after 11 years. And the man who led a costly nationwide boycott against the retail giant is our guest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: More breaking news tonight. Hurricane Erin is about to unleash monster 20-foot waves on the East Coast. It's a sprawling storm, one of the fastest growing on record in the Atlantic. The hurricane is now tracking north at 110 miles per hour and strengthening.

NASA just released a really stunning 3-D model of Hurricane Erin, as it was rapidly intensifying. Just look at this model. The way it says is, quote, strengthening from a cat one to a category five hurricane in around 24 hours. North Carolina is under a state of emergency because of this. Thousands have already evacuated from the state's outer banks. Beaches all along the east coast, from New England to Florida already shut down or issuing warnings.

CNN's Dianne Gallagher OUTFRONT from Nags Head, North Carolina, in the middle of it, where it's going to be in the middle of it.

Dianne, winds are picking up where you are. Conditions are getting worse. What will the next 24 hours look like?

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Kate, I will tell you, the big concern is actually the next like 12 to 15 hours here in the outer banks.

[19:35:00]

It's no secret. It's absolutely beautiful out here, with the exception of some -- some spicy surf. It's starting to get rough. You can see it crashing up on Jennette's Pier right now.

That's not stopping the families. They're still out there with their kids. Everybody's kind of out on the beach getting video of these waves right now up on the pier. They're rough though, and we've been experiencing sort of that intense rip current for the past couple of days.

That's why there are these no swimming bans across the entire outer banks. They had those mandatory evacuations of Ocracoke and Hatteras Island and, Kate, within the past hour. They have shut down more than 50 miles of North Carolina Highway 12. Why that is important is because that is basically the one roadway

that connects all of these barrier islands. The ones that are residential, the ones that are not the way to get on and off is NC 12.

So, there are many people now who are stuck where they are at this point, and they're going to have to ride out the rest of this storm as it passes in the Atlantic by the Barrier Islands. Now, again, it's about 200 miles of barrier islands, the outer banks at its widest point. It's about three and a half miles at its narrowest, about 150 yards. And we've already seen some of the deteriorating conditions. Just as high tide came in with over wash on some of the roads, were seeing those swells come in and we're not even experiencing that forecasted four foot storm surge, which may not sound like much, but when you're basically at sea level and in some cases these islands are effectively sandbars, it's a lot and it can be dangerous and it can be destructive.

The biggest concerns for pretty much everyone in the outer banks is that highway to make sure that it's not washed out, that it's not damaged, because that will make it more difficult to get to people once the hurricane does pass.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Dianne, to you and your crew. Thank you so much for being there for us tonight. I really appreciate it.

OUTFRONT with us now, Derek Van Dam live from the CNN weather center.

And, Derek, you've been tracking this hurricane for days and days and days watching its path. Where is this all headed in the next few hours and days now?

DEREK VAN DAM, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, Kate, there's no doubt that conditions are going to go downhill where Dianne is located along the outer banks, the coastal areas of North Carolina.

Let me show you why. Look at this massive hurricane. Still a category two, by the way, moving out of north at about 14 miles per hour.

But the radar paints a different picture. These are the outer rain bands. And notice how they're just starting to edge into the outer banks. Thats when you start to get the tropical storm force gusts. Of course, tropical storm conditions. The criteria is 39 miles per hour or greater. So, we haven't quite reached that just yet in Cape Hatteras. But the question is when will that happen?

So here's our forecast future winds. And these are gusts that needs to be sustained at least 39 miles per hour.

We do believe that by about 4:00 a.m. tomorrow morning when Erin makes its closest approach to the outer banks, that's when the tropical storm force conditions will be felt and eventually moving into the coastal areas of Virginia, the Delmarva Peninsula. And then check this out by Friday morning. We're still feeling the impacts of this near Nantucket, Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard, even as the system pulls away from the eastern seaboard, it is going to churn up the Western Atlantic. This is the big concern. Dianne was talking about these 20 foot

breakers that are possible on the outer banks. Well, it's all because of the amount of water that is being pushed in. And keep this in mind, we've got high tide tomorrow morning coinciding with this onshore push of wind in the outer banks, with its closest approach. Thats when we anticipate the greatest overwash threat for this region -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Derek, thank you. Thank you so much for watching all of that for us.

OUTFRONT for us next, a major shakeup. Target's CEO is out. And next, I'm going to talk to the pastor who led a nationwide boycott over targets decision to roll back its DEI policies. Did he play a role in the ouster?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. JAMAL H. BRYANT, LEADING TARGET BOYCOTT OVER DEI POLICIES: $12 trillion in spending power is not anything that we should laugh at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Plus, the Russians' latest stall tactic when it comes to peace talks with Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:43:56]

BOLDUAN: Tonight, one of America's top CEOs out. And it's in no small part because of this man.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRYANT: Target is depreciating. It is not because of tariffs. It is not because of the stock market. It is because of the power of Black unification.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Target CEO Brian Cornell announced today he is stepping down after 11 years on the job. Part of Cornell's deep troubles at the company, a crippling boycott led by Reverend Jamal Bryant over the company's deny policy rollbacks. At one point, that boycott was responsible for 9 percent lower foot traffic year over year in Target stores nationwide.

OUTFRONT, in his first national interview since the big Target news today is Pastor Jamal Bryant.

Pastor, thanks for being here.

BRYANT: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: What role do you think your boycott played in the CEO's decision to step aside now? BRYANT: This was the most significant boycott of Black people since

the Montgomery bus boycott 70 years ago. The stock market stumbled from $145 a share to $93 a share.

[19:45:03]

They lost $12 billion in valuation. The CEO's salary was cut by 42 percent. Foot traffic was down by 7.9 percent. So, I would say it would be a herculean part of what happened in the downfall. Cornell will stay on now as Target's executive chairman and the new CEO is a 22-year veteran employee of the company, started there as an intern.

And I'm wondering what you think that means for the direction this company heads now, do you think the new CEO is going to change company culture or steer the company in a different direction?

BRYANT: I think we're looking at the moving of peanut shells in Central Park is really nothing different about the ideology or their stance on DEI. It's really smoke and mirrors. I am anxious and zealous to see if the new CEO will be open to a meeting, so that we can discuss what are the four things that were asking for, but just moving the COO to the CEO is really stylish, but it has no substance.

BOLDUAN: Does your boycott continue with this news?

BRYANT: Oh, no. We are full steam ahead until those four things that we've asked for. Black people spend upwards of $12 million a day. So we've asked for $250 million to be deposited in black banks. Weve asked for them to show record of the $2 billion they pledged to invest in the black communities, to partner with six HBCUs, and we gave them a blank canvas to reimagine DEI. None of which have they produced.

And so, yes, we're staying away from Target until they step up to the plate.

BOLDUAN: Last year you were on this show in May, and the last time you were on the show in May, you had just announced an electronic boycott against Dollar General.

BRYANT: Yes.

BOLDUAN: So, when you look at Dollar General, in the circumstances there, it may not be having the same impact. Dollar General was going to report earnings in a few weeks. The stock is up over 50 percent in the last six months. What does that say to you?

BRYANT: Well, you had several different things. We had to walk gingerly with Dollar General. They are predominantly in rural areas where a lot of minorities, that is their only food option. And so we did not want to starve out our constituency base.

So we asked them to write in how it is that they serve food deserts, but 92 percent of their food is processed foods. They have twice the footprint of Target and Walmart combined. Over 300,000 employees, but most of them are part-time and they offer no insurance and no benefits. And so, it's a different kind of fight than what it is that were contending with, with Target.

BOLDUAN: Real quick, if you could talk to the targets target CEO today, what would you say?

BRYANT: I would say to them that it pays to give dignity where people are giving dollars. Is that what we're looking for is not a favor, but to do business. We're coming and we've not led any protest or march, but its really been a sojourn of spirituality and social justice, compelling to their higher selves to make the right decision. And by them losing almost 20 percent of their stock today, with the change, it would be less expensive and a less cost if they would just do right by humanity.

BOLDUAN: Pastor Bryant, thank you for your time today.

BRYANT: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up next, Russia kicking the can down the road when it comes to this alleged planned meeting between Putin and Zelenskyy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:53:17]

BOLDUAN: Tonight, Russia is making its true intentions clear. If they weren't clear enough already. While Trump is posting on social media about what he claims is an upcoming meeting between Zelenskyy and Putin, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov made it clear that there is no sit down on the horizon, an idea being echoed across Russian state TV.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't even imagine commenting on a scene with Putin and Zelenskyy on the screen side by side. It doesn't matter who else is there. These two people can't be on the same screen because this is a great president of a great country who is fighting for humanitarian values, who is trying to save the planet versus the emissary of Western intelligence agencies, a nobody who would obtain a lifetime of legitimacy after this meeting?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Yes, he is saying that Putin is trying to save the planet.

OUTFRONT now, long time Putin critic Bill Browder. He was once Russia's largest foreign investor. He's since been declared a national security threat by Russia.

It's good to see you again. Does Putin have any intention of meeting with President Zelenskyy at any point, do you think?

BILL BROWDER, FORMER FOREIGN INVESTOR IN RUSSIA: Absolutely not. Putin never had any intention. I don't know where this idea came from, that there would be a bilateral meeting between Putin and Zelenskyy. Putin has made it clear since the very beginning that he doesn't consider Ukraine to be a legitimate country, and he doesn't consider Zelenskyy to be the head of, of this what he thinks is illegitimate country.

[19:55:00]

And so, the idea that he would have a sit down with Zelenskyy just makes no sense. And, it's been very clear before he's been very transparent and, and within moments after this summit in Alaska, the -- Sergey Lavrov, the foreign minister and many others have made it absolutely clear, there's not going to be a meeting between these two heads of state.

BOLDUAN: Which is why the focus on the meeting, either with Trump involved or without Trump involved, the focus on it is so honestly surprising because the White House continues to say that Putin promised to hold a meeting with Zelenskyy. Do you think that the president is -- President Trump is trying to wish it or will this thing to happen? Or does he just have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Putin is actually doing here, which by all accounts, is just buying more time in his war?

BROWDER: You know, I can't even begin to speculate on what Trump's motivations are. But what I can say very clearly are what Putin's motivations are. Putin was faced with -- he's had two objectives. One is he wanted -- he wants to continue this war. He thinks he's winning this war, and he has no intention of settling this war in any kind of compromise at all. He wants total victory.

And his second motivation was that he did not want Trump to impose crippling oil sanctions, which had been threatened prior to the meeting in Alaska. And God knows what happened in this meeting where these two heads of state sat down. But somehow Putin was able to walk away without a ceasefire being demanded of him and without crippling oil sanctions. And so, Putin has accomplished his objectives. And, it's sort of bewildering why President Trump continues to give him a free pass.

Trump has given him six free passes. He's made six ultimatums. Putin has not delivered in each of those times, and there has not been any consequences. And that's where we stand today.

And I would hope that when it becomes crystal clear, which it is to me, and starting to become clear to many others that Putin is not going to negotiate in any way, shape or form. I would hope that that, that the Trump and U.S. administration will impose those sanctions because that's what Putin deserves at this point.

BOLDUAN: The Russian foreign minister also said today about the Ukraine summit in Washington this week. He said, here's the quote. We did not hear any constructive ideas from the Europeans there.

But just yesterday, the White House put out a statement with big font, bold headline that said President Trump's peace summit hailed as a game changer. I mean, what would actually be a game changer at this point to bring Vladimir Putin to the table when we when, you know, he doesn't want to. BROWDER: Well, Vladimir Putin is a murderer. He's a thug. He's a

mafia boss. And the only thing that's going to make him negotiate is if he's forced to negotiate. And what will force him to negotiate is if he's in a militarily weak position. And to get there, we need to give the Ukrainians much, much more military aid.

And the second thing that will get Putin to the table is if he's in an economically desperate situation and to do that, we need to impose these sanctions. On his export of oil. And it's all been pretty much discussed, precooked, Trump was even threatening it in the -- in the days leading up to this Anchorage summit.

And then it all went -- it all just went quiet. And so, we need to basically come back to square one and say, okay, if you're not going to do it willingly, Vladimir Putin, then you have to do it unwillingly, and were going to make it happen in that way.

BOLDUAN: And the thing about that is what you hear from the White House, and you heard it from Trump and those around him is the threat of sanctions. They think, will they say they believe will push Putin further away from negotiating rather than towards negotiating, which seems to be the exact opposite of what everyone else around believes can is the only path forward with Vladimir Putin, which is why I just continue to scratch my head about the approach.

BROWDER: Well, it's very -- it's hard to understand. President Trump is extremely tough in other situations with trade with China, with bombing the Iranian nuclear facilities. But for some reason and it just -- it doesn't make any sense that he's just tiptoeing around Vladimir Putin and, you know, it's obvious to everybody that Vladimir Putin only responds to a boot on the throat. He's -- he does not respond to people trying to kiss up to him.

There's no such thing as appeasement with a dictator and certainly not with Vladimir Putin. And so, what he needs is somebody to -- somebody tough to say. Okay. If you're not willing to negotiate, then were going to make you negotiate. And there's no explanation for trying to be nice to him to get him to the table.

BOLDUAN: And make you negotiate is not something that we're hearing a line from -- coming from the summit that we heard in Anchorage, that's for sure.

Bill Browder, thank you so much.

BROWDER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: And thank you for joining us.

"AC360" starts now.