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Erin Burnett Outfront
New Details On Alleged Kirk Killer; Turned In By Family; Messages On Bullet Casings. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired September 12, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:23]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
The breaking news, Charlie Kirk's alleged killer. An electrician who worked with 22-year-old Tyler Robinson just speaking to OUTFRONT. You'll hear what he said the suspect was like.
And turned in by his own family. Authorities revealing how the shooting suspect was taken into custody and what his demeanor is tonight. The attorney general of Utah is OUTFRONT.
And the message is on bullet casings that the suspect left behind. Several are apparent references to video games and will explain what they mean.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, new details into OUTFRONT about the man who allegedly murdered Charlie Kirk. The suspect's name is Tyler James Robinson.
And OUTFRONT just spoke to a man who worked with the 22-year-old as recently as two weeks ago. So, two weeks ago, the man you see on your screen was at work. The two were both doing electrical work at what our source, who did not want to be identified, describes as a big custom house in Santa Clara, Utah.
He says Robinson was, quote, a little abnormal. Didn't talk to anyone. He was a quiet dude, and he didn't like being -- talking unless spoken to. He stays in the back, and I knew from word of mouth from coworkers that he was not fond of Trump or Charlie Kirk, obviously.
Now, you know, when you think about this, right? He's working on this job site. Two weeks ago, Robinson was a 4.0 student, honor roll kid. He received a prestigious scholarship to college. He had no criminal record.
He is registered to vote, but not affiliated with a party. His parents are both registered Republicans. Right now, though, he is being held without bail on several charges, including aggravated murder. They say assassinating Charlie Kirk as a sniper. These are live pictures we're showing you right now of a Utah County
jail. That is where Robinson is as we speak. Now, according to sources, he is not cooperating. He is not speaking to investigators.
He was arrested overnight, though, more than 250 miles away from Utah Valley University, where Kirk was shot as he spoke to a crowd of students. We do have some new video of a person matching Robinsons description walking near Utah Valley University just moments before the shooting, so again appears to be new video of the suspect just before the shooting. What later ensued was a massive manhunt. More than 33 hours that ended only after Robinson's family turned him in.
A source tells us that Robinson's father recognized his son after seeing these images, and it was images you could look at and realize if that was somebody you knew well or that was your child, you would recognize them. Well, his parents did.
And when confronted by his father, Robinson confessed, according to another source. But according to our John Miller's reporting, Robinson did not want to surrender. And he told his father, according to John's reporting, quote, I would rather kill myself than turn myself in.
Now, police say that one of Robinsons family members eventually reached out to a family friend, contacted the sheriffs office, and according to court documents, Robinson's behavior leading up to the shooting had changed, they say, and I quote, investigators interviewed a family member of Robinson who stated that Robinson had become more political in recent years.
And Utah's governor says the casings found with the rifle that's believed to have been used in the assassination included inscriptions like the words, "Hey, Fascist! Catch!"
Now, in a moment, I'm going to speak to Utah's attorney general, Derek Brown, about the evidence and the investigation.
First, though, I want to go to Ed Lavandera because he's outside that jail. I just briefly showed you in Spanish Fork, Utah, where we understand Robinson is right behind you tonight, Ed. And what is the latest that you're learning?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he is here being held without bond. Two sources tell CNN that he did speak with investigators briefly when he was first taken into custody. But now we understand he is no longer speaking with investigators.
And this, as investigators are now focused on trying to piece together the motive for what might have inspired this deadly attack.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. SPENCER COX (R), UTAH: We got him.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): The information that led investigators to Tyler Robinson came just after authorities released new videos and enhanced photos of the suspect fleeing the shooting scene. The 22- year-old was arrested at his home at 10:00 p.m. Thursday night. Robinson is now in custody in Utah County jail, held on several charges, including aggravated murder, felony discharge of a firearm and obstruction of justice. He could face the death penalty.
The manhunt lasted 33 hours and started right after conservative activist Charlie Kirk was shot and killed with a single supersonic bullet, 12:23 p.m. Wednesday, local time.
[19:05:00]
Investigators say this video shows Robinson running along the rooftop of a Utah Valley University campus building, dropping to the ground and walking away.
A rifle was found in a wooded area near the university, with evidence that may point to the suspect's motive.
COX: Inscriptions on the three unfired casings read "Hey, fascist! Catch!"
LAVANDERA: The governor also revealed investigators have unreleased video they say shows Robinson arriving on campus in a Dodge Challenger.
COX: He is observed on video in a plain maroon T-shirt, light colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo, and light-colored shoes.
LAVANDERA: Authorities say the suspect arrived on campus at 11:52 a.m. Less than 24 hours later, at 9:48 a.m. Thursday, the FBI released the first photos from surveillance video of a person of interest showing a man in sunglasses and a dark blue cap, wearing a T-shirt with an American flag.
Later that night, at 7:52 p.m., authorities released the video of the suspect running across a rooftop. Robinson, matching the descriptions in the video, was later located at his home in Washington County, Utah, at 10:00 p.m. Thursday, 260 miles from the scene and taken into custody.
According to Utah's governor, Robinson's father confronted him after seeing the video and the images and told his son to turn himself in. Robinson was then transported overnight and booked into jail just before 2:00 a.m. Friday morning, 12 miles from the scene of Kirk shooting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAVANDERA (on camera): And, Erin, local prosecutors tell us that formal criminal charges will be filed on Tuesday, and that is when Tyler Robinson is expected to make his first court appearance, his initial appearance. But he will not be taken from this jail to the court. We are told that that hearing will take place virtually -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. I guess with all the -- all the frenzy that would surround that. Ed, thank you very much.
And outside that jail, I want to go now to the attorney general of Utah, Derek Brown, as promised.
And, Attorney General, I appreciate your time.
As you see that, and, you know, Ed standing in front of the jail where Tyler Robinson is right now and is going to be through that booking. Is this, Attorney General, an open and shut case?
DEREK BROWN, UTAH ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, I think at this point, what we know is that we've got a suspect in custody the next couple of days, we're going to be obtaining all the evidence we can. As you've already indicated, this is a process of getting evidence that we can use in the charging documents.
So, the charging documents will be filed. We'll have that appearance in a couple of days. And then our goal now is to identify everything that we can get, the kind of information that we can to, you know, essentially assure that we have the right charges. We at the county level, where your reporter is, we've had great work done, but we've also worked together with federal law enforcement as well.
And so, really, this has been, I think, a model of cooperation from the highest levels of Department of Justice all the way to the county level here in Utah.
BURNETT: So, and obviously, you're gathering all of your information, but we understand, you know, I was just talking about, you know, we had talked to somebody who was actually on a job, an electrical job with a Tyler Robinson just two weeks ago. Right? Described him as a little abnormal, not talking to anybody sitting in the back, but that he had made clear to some others that he was not a fan of Trump or Charlie Kirk.
These are just a little data points, right, that are coming in. I understand, Attorney General, that the suspect is not talking to investigators right now, although he might have briefly at the beginning. Is there anything you can share with us about what he said then or about his demeanor? Anything about how he is conducting himself right now?
BROWN: At this point, I can't, because we're going to be involved in the prosecution. But what I can, what I can promise is that we're doing two things. Number one, we're collecting all the information we can, doing every conceivable avenue that's out there to collect information about what happened, people he's talked to, and that sort of thing. And then we will use that to ensure that that he is brought to justice and all options are on the table for that.
BURNETT: All right. So, justice, what does that mean in your view in this case? What is justice?
BROWN: Well, justice is ensuring that the individual is held accountable for what he did. I mean, that's the real process that we have to go through right now is identifying all of the relevant facts, making sure that the charges that are brought are appropriate, and, you know, as the governor mentioned, all the options are available at this table. They're all on the table.
BURNETT: President Trump earlier, you know, is very direct. He said, I hope he gets the death penalty. Do you want to see the death penalty in this case? I mean, obviously in your state, it's been used only eight times since it was reinstated in 1976. But it is -- it is a possibility in the state of Utah is that and the president, you know, has certainly made his view clear.
[19:10:04]
Do you agree?
BROWN : He has. Well, at this point, it's hard to say. And I can't comment on it because I am so close to this and I'm the actual prosecution. But that being said, I mean, it is something that, as I mentioned, when I say that everything is on the table, that's clearly part of the issues that we are looking at. And in terms of charges, that's what will be on the table.
BURNETT: All right. Well, I appreciate your time, Attorney General. Thank you very much for joining us on this Friday. All these major developments here.
And Mark O'Mara, Tim Clemente are here.
Mark, you know, you hear the attorney general, he's going to be involved in the prosecution. But you see what they have here. They have an individual. They have someone who apparently told his father he did it and would rather kill himself than turn himself in. They got him to -- or they turned him in to law enforcement.
Is this an open and shut case? I guess I'll just put it to you. And how do you see it?
MARK O'MARA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So far, it seems as though they have some forensic evidence supporting that he was the one who did the shooting. So that's great. The facts have to be there. Absolutely.
And this -- there's always two tracks, as you and I have talked about, Erin, there's the track of the forensics. Did he do it and how did he do it.
But there's also the "why". And I think the why is going to be what a good defense team is really going to focus on, if in fact, it's proven that he did what they're alleging, the why -- you know, was he groomed? Was he, you know, social media inquiries that he was looking at was somehow that he got sort of in some rabbit hole where he thought that this was appropriate. I think that's where a good defense team is going to spend a lot of time.
BURNETT: Right, right. And we don't know the answers to any of those questions. Right. Again, we talked to that individual, worked with him just two weeks ago. Quiet. Dude. Didn't like talking unless spoken to.
Tim, of the evidence that we have right now, right, and this doesn't get perhaps at full motive, but it does show perhaps some of his exposure. Okay. Because the message is on the bullet casings included things like, hey, fascist catch. You know, there was that that song obviously, "Ciao, Bella". A fascist song. Some of these things are very visible on social media. Okay? We don't know what his exposure was. We don't know.
A rifle video of the suspect on the roof and nearby as well. So, you know, the evidence itself. Tim, again, on the kind of open and shut appears to be quite clear. There doesn't appear to be any question from authorities at all on that.
TIM CLEMENTE, FORMER FBI COUNTERTERRORISM AGENT: No, I don't think there is, Erin. And I think there's a pretty solid case. Mark brought up some good points as -- and as a criminal defense attorney. Thats what he's going to look for.
But as a person who works on the side of the prosecution as an investigator, there's obviously going to be a lot of physical evidence revolving that or excuse me around that gun. That would be fingerprints, DNA, human scent. The fact that he may have purchased rounds at a gun store recently. I don't know where the gun came from. I don't know the tracing on that, but that may be provides a connection to the defendant as well.
And so, I think there's a lot of physical evidence besides the video were seeing. Obviously, we're going to have individuals that saw him there when his father is able to identify him from an image and confront him. There's also going to be a lot of other people that know him that may have done the same thing. So, I think you're going to have a lot of proximity to the crime in time and place.
And also, physical evidence on the gun itself and whatever he might have been wearing, he may have left residue on the rooftop when he was laying down. There might have been fibers from his clothing. So, the FBI lab will do very, very detailed work to link him to all this. And very quickly.
BURNETT: Yeah. And, Mark, we're going to, it would seem, learn a lot more. I mean, I'm just thinking back to the attempted sniper assassin in Butler against Trump, right? With that individual. It is one of the most bizarre things. I don't know if you both share my sense that this is bizarre, that we still don't know very much about that guy, and nobody really knows why he did it and how he was. Nobody knows. Which I think is actually kind of stunning.
But he's dead. Obviously, this young man is not dead. He's very much alive. So. So there's -- there's a lot more to find out.
O'MARA: So, yeah. And in today's day and age, 70, 80 percent of all evidence that comes in against a criminal defendant is now digital evidence. So we're going to see an enormous amount of social media. We're going to see enormous amount off of his cell phone if he had one. The real question is going to be, again, why was he radicalized? The defense team is going to try and explain this away to avoid a death penalty, or maybe even avoid a full life sentence. It's questionable under Idaho law whether or not he actually should face death because of the criteria that would have to be met that he may not meet.
But whatever we're going to be looking at finding out a lot more about him, not just from the gun. I think they probably have him forensically, but we're going to try and get a look inside his mind as to why this happened.
BURNETT: Yeah. And, Tim, what else would you be looking for right now?
CLEMENTE: I'd be looking for accomplices. There was, a lot of rumors going around that he had spoken to people, that he had texted people. So, looking at his communication, not just through social media, but direct communication and finding out if there's anybody else that supported him in any way.
Somehow, he got 250 miles from that crime scene to his home that was there, a vehicle stage. Was there somebody there helping him? So that's a big part of it.
And as far as what Mark just said, I agree on a lot of it, but I think there's a lot of premeditation here. It's going to be very, very hard to say that this was something that was spontaneous, that was inspired by something he saw online or, you know, a message he got.
This is a guy that spent some time planning this and executed it exactly as he wanted to, got away with it almost. And clearly, it's premeditated. It's premeditated murder, and it's a capital crime, capital offense. And the death penalty should be on the table.
BURNETT: Right? Of course, you know, the governor of the state has said he thinks it should be, but we'll see what happens, state of Utah. Thank you both very much. I appreciate your time.
And next, Charlie Kirk's alleged killer here, what he allegedly told his roommate after the shooting.
Plus, one of Charlie Kirk's closest friends who worked with him, speaking to CNN about how Kirk's followers are reacting. You'll hear that report here first.
And I'll speak to Charlie Kirk's former head of security. He ran security for Kirk for seven years, dealing with hundreds of threats. Does Robinson fit the profile of anyone they would have seen as a threat?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:44]
BURNETT: Breaking news a former classmate of the suspect in the killing of Charlie Kirk tells CNN he was, quote, very big into gaming, even taking a class on video game design in school. He describes Tyler Robinson as quiet but, quote/unquote, fun to be around. So how did Robinson go from that to someone accused of murder, of an
assassination?
Kyung Lah is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tyler Robinson!
(CHEERS)
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Tyler Robinson graduated Pineview High School in 2021, photos and videos from his mother's Facebook page show him as a high achiever, graduating with such a strong academic record that he won a four-year scholarship.
TYLER ROBINSON, CHARLIE KIRK SUSPECT: Congratulations! You have been selected to receive the resident presidential scholarship from Utah State University. The value of this scholarship is approximately $32,000.
LAH: But Robinson did not use all four years of that scholarship. He took a leave of absence after just one semester. According to Utah State University, and enrolled at Dixie Technical College in the electrical apprentice program.
It appears Robinson lived near his family at an apartment in St. George, where today law enforcement was at this complex. FBI technicians gathered evidence at the apartment. A neighbor described Robinson as super reclusive. This apartment is three hours away from Utah Valley, the site of the shooting.
He lived here with a roommate who showed police messages.
COX: The content of these messages included messages affiliated with the contact, Tyler, stating a need to retrieve a rifle from a drop point, leaving the rifle in a bush.
LAH: In the woods near the school, investigators found that rifle, along with bullet casings engraved with messages, some referring to online memes and video games, others seemingly political.
COX: Hey, fascist, exclamation point, catch, exclamation point. A second unfired casing read, oh, Bella, ciao, Bella, ciao, Bella, ciao, ciao, ciao.
LAH: That inscription "Bella Ciao" appears to reference an Italian anti-Nazi folk song, which has been used in recent years on video games and a TV show. Robinson's voter registration doesn't show any political leaning. He registered as unaffiliated with any party and had not voted in the last two general elections, but he had recently become more political. A family member described what he said at a dinner.
COX: In the conversation with another family member, Robinson mentioned Charlie Kirk was coming to UVU. They talked about why they didn't like him and the viewpoints that he had. The family member also stated Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate.
LAH: It was his family and a friend who turned Robinson into the sheriff's department.
Among the clues, investigators say they got footprints from Converse shoes when the suspect jumped off the roof. Photos show Robinson wearing converse in several pictures similar to surveillance photos captured at Utah Valley.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAH (on camera): Now, pinpointing Robinson's exact political beliefs right now ahead of the shooting is proving to be a little challenging, Erin. We've spoken to a number of people who've known him over a number of years. We spoke with high school friend of his from 2020. He said that Robinson appeared to back Donald Trump and called his entire family, quote, die hard Trumpers.
But more recently, we spoke with someone who actually knew him and said that he wasn't fond of Trump or Charlie Kirk.
So, it's a bit of a confusing picture that we're piecing together, Erin.
BURNETT: Yeah, absolutely. Although the -- not being a fan fits with what someone who worked with him a couple of weeks ago just told us. So complicated picture, but certainly in more recent times appears to be more clear.
All right, Kyung, thank you so much for all that new reporting, new details there.
I want to bring all of that to Mary Ellen O'Toole, former FBI senior profiler.
Mary Ellen, when you hear Kyung Lah reporting you know, the classmate of the suspect telling her that he was very big into gaming. And then we look at the unfired bullet casings that they're still able to look at. They do appear to have messages related to gaming culture that, "Hey, fascist, catch," which is something a player says when they drop a bomb in one of the popular games.
[19:25:00]
And then just the images of an up arrow, right arrow and three down arrows, which is the sequence of controller moves to actually drop a bomb up, over, down.
And then what you heard from the governor of Utah there, Oh, Bella, ciao, Bella, ciao, Bella, ciao, ciao, ciao. The lyrics of that Italian anti-fascist song, which appears in another game. I mean, just watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHARACTER: Bella, ciao, Bella, ciao, Bella, ciao, ciao, ciao.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And sitting there and what appears to be some sort of a sniper type position.
How significant do you think, Mary Ellen, that his gaming habits are going to be?
MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER SENIOR FBI PROFILER: Well, they could be very significant. They probably don't know yet. And the reason that I say that is this, violence begins in the brain. And what do I mean by that? I mean that, this is not a case where somebody woke up one day and just decided that they were going to do this.
So, there was a pathway to violence for this individual, which could have gone back for a number of years. Now. What influenced that pathway to violence is what becomes critical. So, at the point where there seems to be a shift in his life was when he left the university after getting a three of almost a full scholarship.
So, they'll start looking there to find out what was happening in his life. And then at that point, they'll start looking at did he isolate himself? And what became really important in terms of what influenced him? And was it the video lifestyle?
Video games do not cause this kind of violence, but if someone is on an isolated path to violence, they can be fueled by violent videos. And when you describe what was -- how the homicide unfolded with the out -- the customized outfit, with the customized gun, with the bullets, it's almost like, was he in his own video game, and he was the main character?
So, you can't just say that. But what becomes important is to look at what activities led up to what he did the other day.
BURNETT: So, Mary Ellen, you know, again, there's a gap, although he's very young, right? Twenty-two years old. So high school is not long in his rearview mirror.
We know he was a good student, right? We know he was honor roll. We know he had a scholarship. In fact, here he is reading his scholarship letter to college. There's video of that. Right. So, family recorded that, right? A family who would want to record that out of pride because of their kid.
How does someone with all of that get to this?
O'TOOLE: Well, again, the fact that he's very young also contributes to it because ones personality and even their brain does not, does not, is not hardwired until they're in their mid to late 20s, which means they make poor decisions and they're risk takers and they're incredibly sensitive to the world and how they interpret the world. So it's a very vulnerable time to begin with. So going back to that point where he makes that shift becomes
important. Did relationships go sideways? Did other things happen to him? That becomes important to understand?
Did that push him onto a pathway where he becomes what we've seen in a lot of these shooters? Only as an example, did he become like an injustice collector? He was blaming the world for what was happening to him.
Then you look at someone quite successful, like the victim, who also didn't complete college, but he's now world renowned and quite wealthy. We don't know that.
But we do know what has happened in other cases. This goes back more than 25 years. So this isn't recent research.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Mary Ellen, thank you very much. A lot to think about there is going to be quite a while. Everyone tries to understand exactly what happened here. Of course, we're always trying to understand the incomprehensible, but thank you very much.
And next, Charlie Kirk's close friend speaks out with a sobering warning tonight, after the death of his friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEENA DUERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you think we're at war?
JACK POSOBIEC, CONTRIBUTOR, TURNING POINT USA: My friend's in a box right now. And it wasn't an accident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Plus, he traveled the world with Charlie Kirk, overseeing his security for seven years. He saw firsthand hundreds of threats Kirk received. So does the suspect fit the profile of anyone they were worried about?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:33:31]
BURNETT: Breaking news -- breaking news -- warfare, I'm sorry. That's what one prominent conservative says the political right is facing in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's murder.
Jack Posobiec, a close friend of Kirk's, is talking to CNN about who could lead the movement that Kirk helped to build and how Republicans should respond to Kirk's murder.
Meena Duerson is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POSOBIEC: I think the worst possible way to remember Charlie would be if to turn these lights off, that this is his life's work. DUERSON (voice-over): Charlie Kirk's podcast continued on Friday
without him.
POSOBIEC: All right. Welcome back to "The Charlie Kirk Show". We're remembering our friend Charlie Kirk.
DUERSON: His friend, and Turning Point contributor Jack Posobiec sat in his studio, leaving Kirk's chair open as a tribute.
How do you fill this void?
POSOBIEC: Look, everybody's got to step up, and there's -- there's no replacement for Charlie Kirk.
(GUN SHOT)
UNIDENTIIFED MALE: Who's that?
DUERSON: Posobiec is a leading voice in right wing media, where some of his peers were quick to call Kirk's assassination an act of war.
STEVE BANNON, PODCAST HOST: Charlie Kirk's a casualty of war.
DUERSON: Do you think we're at war?
POSOBIEC: My friend's in a box right now. And it wasn't an accident.
DUERSON: Or are we facing a civil war?
POSOBIEC: Well, there's no question that were clearly facing asymmetric civil warfare. One of the key aspects of that is political assassinations. That being said, the idea that were going to a, you know, classic civil war scenario, I -- I hope and I pray that that doesn't happen.
[19:35:08]
DUERSON: Outside headquarters, for the past few days, a steady stream of fans have come to pay their respects.
JENNA GILL, FAN OF THE CHARLIE KIRK SHOW: This was a really heartless act, and I feel so sad. And I feel like when we're trying to be silenced, we need to come together as a whole and be a family.
DUERSON: Do you feel any responsibility to help bring the temperature down in this political discourse?
POSOBIEC: I want people to be safe, but if you're someone who is a part of a group that is fanning the flames of violence, that is encouraging this or celebrating this, then that's absolutely something that we have to tamp down 100 percent.
DUERSON: The governor this morning was describing the suspect having this family dinner. This is what the governor said. The family member also stated, Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate.
POSOBIEC: I mean, it's -- from that person's perspective, Charlie Kirk represented everything they hated.
He loved debate. He loved just talking things out. It's what he lived for. It's what he died doing.
And this idea that, you know, Charlie, is they're the one spreading this. No, it's -- he's got it completely backwards.
DUERSON: Now, Turning Point and the conservative right have to figure out where their movement goes from here.
POSOBIEC: I think we're at an inflection point right now just because you see an influencer online, just because you get mad at something they said in a ten second clip that doesn't mean that you have to go and pick up a rifle and shoot them. That instead, as a country, that should mean, you know, come up with a better argument.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DUERSON (on camera): And we are at Turning Point headquarters here in Phoenix, where people have continued to show up these past few days with flowers and tributes for Charlie and his wife Erika is expected to speak from inside in about 45 minutes, which would make her first public address since this tragedy occurred on Wednesday. So that is what we are expecting people to continue to, to wait for here -- Erin.
BURNETT: Yeah. Meena, thank you very much. And such an important and interesting conversation with Jack Posobiec.
David Axelrod is OUTFRONT now.
And, David, you know this language about being at war and obviously --
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah.
BURNETT: -- you know, you hear the frustration, a very somber words there from Jack Posobiec. But you heard others who were inflamed and immediately firebombing, right? Alex Jones among them, right, talking about being at war. How dangerous is this moment? Right?
And you're looking at it the context of having lived through a moment of political assassinations in America that are hard for many to understand. When you look at JFK and RFK and Martin Luther King, Jr., all, you know, happening in the same time frame.
AXELROD: Yeah, I remember that era. I was a kid, but I remember it very clearly, and it felt like the world was coming apart and we were able to navigate our way through that. I think it's harder now, in part because the media environment is such that it is inflaming. I mean, we don't know the whole story about what provoked this young man to do what he did. It is kind of a perverse answer to if you think someone is disseminating hate, the idea that you'll go out, you should go out and kill that person, as a perverse answer to that.
But there obviously, he lived in a world that we don't entirely understand. But, you know, listening to the interview there, I was thinking about the fact that, yes, it is tragic that Charlie Kirk, a young man with a family who was out there expressing himself, whether you agree with what he was saying or not, is dead today. And the whole world watched his cold-blooded murder. That is terrible.
It is. And he is as described in a box. It's terrible that Melissa Hortman, the legislator from Minnesota, and her husband are dead today. It was terrible that a police officer outside the CDC was killed. And because someone sprayed the building with -- we have a problem in this country and it's not going to be solved by throwing around words like war, which suggests that there's some legitimacy to picking up weapons. That can't be the answer.
BURNETT: No, no. Well, the word war being thrown around quite loosely in multiple contexts in this country right now. But from Republicans, we heard two different messages just today, two different ones. Okay?
First, Utah Governor Spencer Cox.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COX: We can return violence with violence. We can return hate with hate. And that's the problem with political violence is it metastasizes because we can always point the finger at the other side and at some point, we have to find an off ramp or it's going to get much, much worse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Okay, so that's the governor of Utah. President Trump is very different. He was asked by a Fox anchor about violence on the far left and far right. The question actually was phrased, including both. Okay? So in that context, he answers a question about how to bring the country back, as the president of the United States. He answers it this way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The radicals on the right oftentimes are radical because they don't want to see crime. The radicals on the left are the problem, and they're vicious and they're horrible and they're politically savvy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: You mentioned Melissa Hortman, of course, someone posed as a police officer showed up at her house in the middle of the night and assassinated her husband. What do you make and what does it mean? What does it mean that the president of the United States, in this moment, chooses to conduct himself in that way and use those words?
AXELROD: You know, Erin, I listened to the governor, Governor Cox of Utah, and his words today, which I thought were magnificent and completely appropriate. And I thought, this is the message that you want to hear from the president of the United States.
He is the influencer in chief. He has more impact on people's actions than anyone. And it's not just now, Erin, that he refers to his all his political opponents and a whole political party as radical left lunatics, sick, evil who hate our country.
Those messages matter. Words matter. They're not just tactics for political advantage. They influence people, especially when you have the platform of the president. What you want in this, in this kind of a very difficult period, is you want your president to be a force for understanding, for reconciliation.
And that's what we've seen in the past from Republicans and Democrats. But it's not how this president has approached this.
BURNETT: No, it's not how he's approaching it now. But as you say, a very different view from the Republican Utah governor, Spencer Cox, who spoke very differently.
Thank you so much, David Axelrod. Appreciate you.
And next, I'm going to speak to the man who used to oversee Charlie Kirk security. What does he think about the security surrounding the event where Kirk was murdered?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:45:14]
BURNETT: Breaking news, Charlie Kirk's wife, Erika, expected to make her first public remarks after her husband's shocking death. As we are learning new details tonight about Kirks security detail that day and how the man accused of killing him managed to go unnoticed.
My next guest, Charlie Kirk's former head of security for seven years, he's led security for 30 similar events for Kirk, documented hundreds of death threats. But he was shocked when he heard about Robinson's profile, said that Robinson never would have been on his radar and all of those times.
And Gregory Shaffer's OUTFRONT now. He traveled the world with Kirk to secure his safety. Also, a former FBI supervisory special agent.
And, Gregory, I am sorry. I know that you worked together for many years, so I'm sorry for your loss this week as you're coming to terms with it.
When you are learning all the things were learning today about the suspect, the suspected person who assassinated Charlie Kirk, the profile that we're learning. I mean, it was an honor roll student. Is this a profile of anybody that you would have ever typically looked for as a threat?
GREG SHAFFER, WAS CHARLIE KIRK'S SECURITY DIRECTOR FOR 7 YEARS: Absolutely not. I mean, the FBI profiling unit is going to have quite the job to, you know, get into the mind of this young man and this individual to see, you know, what caused him, what motivated him to do such a heinous, heinous act?
I mean, as you -- as you pointed out, he came from a well-to-do, middle class family. Parents been married for decades. He made good grades. He's clean cut, doesn't use drugs or alcohol that we know of.
He certainly would not have been somebody that would have bubbled up on our radar as a threat.
BURNETT: You know, and stunning, obviously. You know, you say that with all the experiences I just mentioned of what you went through, right? Dozens of events, hundreds of threats that you dealt with, and Kirk himself spoke about some of those death threats that he received, Gregory.
Here's one of the things he'd said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE KIRK, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST: We get death threats all the time. You know, they come, they send stuff to our homes and all that. And. Yeah, and that's just par for the course. I mean, if you are not getting active death threats, you're not really doing much for the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Again, you work together for seven years. How seriously did Kirk take all those threats? I mean, things like bulletproof vests was -- was he, you know, were you advising him to wear things like that while you were overseeing security?
SHAFFER: You know, I met him in 2015. I think he was 21 years old at the time. And you know, Turning Point USA was just starting to grow tremendously. So, the more popular he became, of course, the more threats he received.
And you know, he really didn't take him very seriously because most of them were sent via email, or most of them were on social media platforms, and they weren't definitive to say, I'm going to kill you. It was just more things like, I hate you. I hate what you stand for. I hope you die. Those are the typical kind of threats.
Now, if a threat did come over the threshold that we thought was credible, we certainly made, you know, contacted the local police of where the threat was made and filed a report so that if those threats continue to come, we would have documentation that this individual had made, you know, more than just one, one documented threat.
So, he took him as serious as he needed to, but for the most part, most of the threats were just idle and not really credible.
BURNETT: And at least from the reporting right now, we don't have any evidence that the person who actually assassinated him had ever made any threats, right? So just to make that point and obviously, I don't know what we don't know at this point, but that's how we understand it.
He often spoke -- I mean, that was his whole brand was to be accessible, right, Gregory? That you can come and ask questions. And it was this debate and he would speak in wide open, uncontrolled spaces. You know, even the other day, right? You didn't have to go through and, and go through some sort of airport security to get in there.
And his wife, Erika, talked about some of her concerns about wanting to protect him. She actually talked about this only five days ago. I'll just play what she just said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIKA KIRK, WIFE OF CHARLIE KIRK: You know, my husband is on college campuses getting screamed at by college kids as he's trying to share with them the truth. And he is so calm.
Would I be calm? No, I wouldn't. I barely go to those only because I don't trust myself. Not climbing over the table and like attacking someone in the crowd because I'm very protective of my husband.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So when he went into those open spaces and obviously he relished that, you could see that in how relaxed and laid back he was in those images before the -- that horrific incident. You know, that -- that's how he felt at home.
[19:50:00]
Did he ever have a conversation with you about those open spaces, about something horrible like this? Even being a possibility? Or was this really beyond his imagination?
SHAFFER: Well, I think that's beyond everybody's imagination. I mean, when you, you know, conduct security operations, you look at what the threat is, you know, what's the most credible threat, what's the risks involved. And when you go to a college campus where the average age is 18 to 22 years old, it's not a threatening environment.
Yes. They yelled, you know, things at him. They verbally disagreed with him, but he's been doing this for years. And, you know, the number of times, he was -- he was physically assaulted is so minimal. And the physical assaults were pretty lame. You know, water being thrown at him or stuff like that.
And that's what the security team that was in place on that fateful day, you know, they were looking at what is the threat. And the threat is going to be close in by the stage. It's going to be somebody throwing a water bottle at them or pigs blood or, you know, God forbid, drawing a handgun or a knife, jumping the bike rack and charging the stage. That's why the security was placed, you know, in the inner perimeter, you know, watching him closely, you know, with the people right there.
Not in a million years would you ever consider you know, a sniper 200 yards away as part of a threat that you would have to mitigate in an environment like that? It's just that's not part of the operation plan, and it's not part of the probability that you're trying to address in mitigating those threats and those risks. BURNETT: Gregory, thank you very much. I appreciate your being willing
to talk about it.
SHAFFER: Thank you.
BURNETT: And next, our special series, "Champions for Change". You're going to meet a mother revolutionizing school busses.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:55:11]
BURNETT: And finally, tonight, our CNN series "Champions for Change". Our Bill Weir talks to a mother who transformed something every American child knows, school buses.
Bill Weir is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For 100 years, the Wheels on the Bus have gone round and round, round and round, with very little improvement. Yellow diesel dinosaurs belching fumes all through the town and with no way to track America's most precious cargo.
RITU NARAYAN, FOUNDER & CEO, ZUM: Like you can track your pizza. You can track your packages, but you have no idea where your children are.
WEIR: My champion for change is a mom/engineer who set out to reinvent the school bus. It's a company called Zum.
When Ritu Narayan moved to Silicon Valley and started a family, she found the same child transport challenges her mother faced back in India.
NARAYAN: Nothing had changed. This problem is generational. It is very much societal. Why is the technology not applied and how I can revolutionize this whole thing?
WEIR: Even in the epicenter of door to door on time delivery, we didn't think in this way when it came to our kids.
NARAYAN: Yeah, it is a problem hidden in plain sight, like nobody realizes it's the largest mass transit system in the country, 27 million kids commute twice daily on this infrastructure.
WEIR: Hi, Mateo. I love your shirt. I love that dragon shirt. That's so cool.
And for special needs families like Mateo's, knowing exactly when a safe, quiet ride will arrive at both ends is an educational game changer.
LIZBETH ZAMORA, MATEO'S MOM: Sometimes they'll tell you like it's coming a little early or it's running late, but right now, it's still on schedule.
WEIR: That's so great, and our driver is Diana.
ZAMORA: Yes. So it gives you the driver's information.
Ready? Have a good day. Bye, Mateo.
WEIR: So he rode a diesel bus, right, his first year?
ZAMORA: Right.
WEIR: What was that like for him? He has autism.
ZAMORA: Right. So, it was a little uncomfortable because he -- the noise. So, he was just sometimes, like, cover his ears, you know? It bothered him. Now, with these buses, like, you can barely hear him. So that's not an issue anymore.
WEIR: Oakland became Zum's first big customer, thanks to Kimberly Raney, who came from package delivery at FedEx.
KIMBERLY RANEY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF TRANSPORTATION, OAKLAND UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT: We gave them a little bit of a shot. We also tried them on our most difficult students to see really how well the app and the technology held up.
And it was great. Our parents loved it. We like to call it like Uber, Lyft meets FedEx type, Amazon meets Tesla, and we've merged them all together into almost the exact perfect operation.
NARAYAN: Normally, school buses stop for three minutes every stop. And the reason for that is they want to make sure the kid is there and nobody has missed each other. In our case, we are able to reduce that boarding time to eight seconds per stop.
WEIR: Wow. By trying to solve one problem, she ended up solving all kinds of other problems.
Since there is a national shortage of bus drivers, smarter routes make the most of everybody. And the extra juice saved gets used after school because these aren't just busses, they are giant portable batteries which get plugged into the grid after school and during summers.
NARAYAN: Seventy-four buses in Oakland are giving 2.1 gigawatt hours of energy, which is equivalent to powering 400 homes annually.
Zum is in 14 states, 4,000 schools across the country, and we are rapidly growing. So, our mission is to enable 10,000 buses in the next few years.
WEIR: School bus by day, power plant by night.
NARAYAN: That's right. That's right.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BURNETT: So, Bill, you know, you see that report and then you can't help but think about the world that were in, right? A world where Trump came back in office, he cut support for EVs. And yet here we are. Thats the core of what she's doing.
What does that cut in support mean for her?
WEIR: Well, it's interesting. This was actually a Kamala Harris supported idea back in 2019. She tried to get a pass for federal support, didn't pass, but then Biden announced this in 2022. And it was so popular, a $5 billion grant program. Dozens of states tried to apply. Trump tried to stop it. A couple of judges stepped in and said, no, you got to release this money. Some districts, like one in Pittsburgh, had to cancel their plans because it was too uncertain right now.
But the CEO of Zum says, look, were trying to make a product that doesn't need politics or incentives. It just makes the most sense. Batteries are so cheap now. It makes so much sense for the grid balancing and for emergency power sources that it will sell itself, she says.
BURNETT: All right. Well, pretty incredible work.
All right, Bill, thank you so much. And don't miss "The Champions for Change". The entire special is Saturday night at 10:00, right here on CNN.
Thanks so much for joining us.
"AC360" begins now.
