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Erin Burnett Outfront
Charlie Kirk Murder Suspect Makes First Court Appearance; Crackdown On Free Speech; Patel's Shocking Testimony; Robert Redford, Hollywood Icon And Sundance Founder, Dead At 89. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired September 16, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:19]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
Breaking news, prosecutors making a damning case against Charlie Kirk's alleged killer. As we see Tyler Robinson in court for the first time, you'll hear for yourself the incredibly detailed texts he allegedly exchanged with his romantic partner hours after Kirk's assassination.
Plus, the president threatening to go after a reporter who he says, quote, "has a lot of hate in his heart", as the administration is cracking down on dissenters as they see them. Even Republicans tonight are sounding an alarm.
And Trump's FBI director telling Congress there is no credible evidence that Jeffrey Epstein trafficked girls to others. It's a pretty stunning statement given the evidence.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
(MUSIC)
BURNETT: And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, Charlie Kirk's alleged killer showing zero emotion, appearing in court for the first time late today. Tyler Robinson seen on video wearing -- you may think that's a bulletproof vest. It's actually a green suicide prevention vest so that you're not able to tie anything up around yourself. He sat there motionless, sort of like a doll or a statue, almost only speaking when asked his name.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE: State of Utah versus Tyler James Robinson. Could you state your name?
TYLER ROBINSON, CHARLIE KIRK MURDER SUSPECT: Tyler James Robinson.
(END VIDOE CLIP)
BURNETT: Robinson did later nod his head at times as the judge appointed him an attorney. He said that he was not able to get one on his own, and tonight's hearing comes as we're learning new details about the investigation and that the state of Utah is going for the death penalty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF GRAY, UTAH COUNTY ATTORNEY: I am filing a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. I do not take this decision lightly, and it is a decision I have made independently. As county attorney, based solely on the available evidence and circumstances and nature of the crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, prosecutors say that that evidence includes text messages that Robinson sent to his romantic partner, who is currently transitioning from male to female. The two lived together. Court documents show the first message to his partner was sent shortly after the shooting on Wednesday. That, of course, was September 10th.
He texts, "Drop what you're doing. Look under my keyboard." And then what is a partner allegedly found under the keyboard was a note. A note which read, "I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and I'm going to take it."
Now, prosecutors who are referring to Robinsons partner as his roommate, released more text messages allegedly between these two. His roommate says "what" with many question marks. You're joking, right? For question marks.
Robinson, I'm still okay, my love, but I'm stuck in Orem for a little while longer yet. Shouldn't be long until I can come home. But I got to grab my rifle still. To be honest, I hope to keep this secret till I died of old age. I'm sorry to involve you.
The roommate, "You weren't the one who did it, right?" for question marks. "I am. I'm sorry."
The roommate, "I thought they I thought they caught the person." Robinson, "No. They grabbed some crazy old dude that interrogated someone in similar clothing. I plan to grab my rifle from my drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town got locked down. It's quiet, almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering."
Roommate, "Why?" Robinson, "Why did I do it? Yeah, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I'm able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully, they've moved on. I haven't seen anything about them finding it."
Now, Robinson's partner then asks, "How long have you been planning this?" To which Robinson replies, "A bit over a week, I believe I can get close to it, but there's a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot, but I don't want to chance it." He appears to be referring there again to the rifle.
According to prosecutors, Robinson later writes, "Delete this exchange" and adds later, "Don't talk to the media, please? Don't take any interviews or make any comments. If any police ask you questions, ask for a lawyer and stay silent."
Danny Freeman is OUTFRONT live outside the courthouse in Provo, Utah.
Danny, even just reading those and reading them aloud, it is chilling. And there were a lot of new details, new evidence that emerged about the suspect in the investigation today, where you're standing.
DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Erin, an enormous amount of new details and information, which is pretty remarkable because we felt that we came in today having a decent idea of what had happened here. But the specific details, Erin, of the information released by the Utah County attorney really just shed so much new light on what was going on in Robinson's head, both before and after the shooting.
[19:05:04]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JUDGE: You have the right to have the charges read that you stand charged of.
FREEMAN (voice-over): The man accused of murdering conservative activist Charlie Kirk, facing a judge today in his first court appearance since the horrific killing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shooting, heard shots.
FREEMAN: Twenty-two-year-old Tyler Robinson, seen in custody wearing a suicide prevention vest, saying only his name as the judge announced seven charges, including aggravated murder, with an enhancement for targeting Kirk for his political expression.
GRAY: I am filing a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. I do not take this decision lightly.
FREEMAN: The appearance, following a staggering amount of new and tragic details revealed by Utah County prosecutors, court documents laid out a series of text messages after the shooting between Robinson and his roommate. Robinson's romantic partner, who was transitioning from male to female.
GRAY: In September 10th, 2025, the roommate received a text message from Robinson, which said, drop what you're doing, look under my keyboard. The roommate looked under the keyboard and found a note that stated, quote, I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and I'm going to take it.
FREEMAN: The roommate texted Robinson, shocked. "What? You're joking right?" The roommate added later, "You weren't the one who did it, right?" "I am," replied Robinson. "I'm sorry."
Robinson said he was planning to retrieve the hunting rifle he used from a drop point, and explained he was trying to get away from the crime scene before the roommate asked this question, "Why?" the roommate asked. "Why did I do it?" replied Robinson. "Yeah," the roommate wrote back. "I had enough of his hatred," wrote Robinson. "Some hate can't be negotiated out."
GRAY: DNA consistent with Robinson was found on the rifle's trigger. After shooting Mr. Kirk, Robinson hid the gun, discarded the clothing he wore when he fired the rifle, and told his roommate to delete incriminating text messages and not talk to police. Roommate, "How long have you been planning this?" Robinson, "A bit over a week, I believe."
FREEMAN: Eventually, after acknowledging what he called memes written on bullet casings recovered from the scene, Robinson told his roommate to delete the messages and not speak to the media. "I'm going to turn myself in willingly," Robinson wrote to his roommate. "One of my neighbors here is a deputy for the sheriff. You are all I worry about, love," he said. "I'm much more worried about you," his roommate replied.
Robinson told his roommate he'd hoped to keep the shooting a secret until he died of old age.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FREEMAN (on camera): Now, Erin, the judge today said that Robinson must have an attorney appointed to him in time by the next hearing. That next hearing is now scheduled for September 29th -- Erin.
BURNETT: Danny, thank you so much.
And I want to go now to Mark O'Mara, criminal defense attorney Jana Monroe, former FBI profiler. And Tim Clemente, former FBI counterterror agent.
I appreciate all of you.
So, Mark, starting with you, obviously, the Utah County attorney laid out the evidence in great detail. Those text messages, part of it. They also had DNA on the rifle, right? So, they -- they had a lot of things we didn't know about. Those texts obviously, incredibly detailed. And, there's a lot in them.
What do the text messages alone do to any sort of defense here?
MARK O'MARA, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Very difficult, because it almost destroys the defense of sudden urge or something like that, which might bring this down to a second degree. There was enough premeditation. Again, under Idaho law and most laws, even a moments premeditation is enough to get you to first degree murder.
A week's worth of planning of it, there's no question that he is going to be seemingly, if this forensic evidence works out, convicted of first degree murder because of premeditation and that evidence, his own words are going to, in fact, cancel out any chance of anything less than that. It then becomes again the question of not if, but why. BURNETT: So, Tim, reading again some of the texts that the Utah County attorney says were sent between Tyler Robinson and his roommate and his romantic partner.
Robinson, "Why did I do it?" Roommate, "Yeah." Robinson, "I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiating out."
Obviously, the context here, we don't know if this is the context, but it is a context that matters, which is that that message he sent about the hatred was to his roommate, who was also his romantic partner, who also is transitioning from male to female.
How big of a part do you think this plays in the investigation, Tim?
TIM CLEMENTE, FORMER FBI COUNTERTERRORISM AGENT: Well, I think its a significant part, but I don't think it's, overly concerning for law enforcement. I mean, his motive clearly was he didn't like Charlie Kirk. And the fact is that they only hate that couldn't be negotiated out was his own.
[19:10:01]
And he could have approached Charlie Kirk and talked to him on the microphone, explained the situation. I have a romantic partner that's transitioning and had a discussion with Charlie Kirk, but he chose instead to use a rifle from 200 yards away and take his life in front of his family and thousands of other people, and the world really.
So, I think, you know, the hatred clearly was there. The animosity was there. It may have been built on the fact that he was romantically involved with a transgender person, but that's not justification for anything that he did. So, I don't think it makes a difference in the investigative aspects of the case or in the prosecution.
BURNETT: So, Jana, in the texts, the Utah County attorney says Robinson gave his roommate a play by play, right, which we were sharing some of that. But a play-by-play of his efforts to cover up what he did.
So, when the roommate says, I thought they caught the person sort of still in disbelief, right, that this was Robinson. Robinson then elaborates, no, they grabbed a crazy old dude. Then they interrogated someone in similar clothing, and then here he gets into the detail. "I plan to grab my rifle from my drop point shortly after most of that side of town got locked down. It's quiet, almost quiet enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering," and these were sent just moments after the horrific assassination.
What does that tell you, Jana, though, about his mindset in terms of what he's focused on, the way he's communicating, and the detail?
JANA MONROE, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Okay, I think he was definitely focused on, the killing of what he had done, and he was actually proud of it. I think if you look at what he said, that he wanted to carry the secret into old age, he really thought he had gotten rid of the evidence and thought that he was going to get away with this. I think by him reliving it and going through the details and sharing it with his roommate, he wasn't thinking of it, that he was putting him in danger as potentially an accessory after the fact, but he wanted to look at him as more of a hero, that he took the action and he took care of something that he considered vile.
BURNETT: And I guess a threat to his partner in some sense as to why he would share it.
Mark, in that other exchange, and you referenced it right away, which was the premeditation, right? The roommate says, how long have you been planning this? To which Robinson replies, "A bit over a week, I believe." Does the I believe matter? And I know you're saying even a minute is enough, right, for a first degree, but what about for death penalty?
O'MARA: So, death penalty under Idaho law has to have some aggravating factors. And of course, the state has said there are enough here that they're going to seek death. And quite honestly, it is discretionary with them. They can argue that he put a lot of people's lives at risk. That's one aggravating factor.
The way he did it, though, this heightened level of premeditation. Again, a week is a long time. It gives you that opportunity to reflect both good and bad, reflecting the fact that you're going to take a life and decide not to. So, they're going to use that heightened aggravation of the mitigation of the time. He had to reflect and not do something, as was just said, as the true hatred in his heart and as an aggravating factor.
BURNETT: So, Tim, the texts do show a confidence, right, in his partner total trust, right? Because if you're saying you want to take this to old age, but you're communicating on text with your partner, right? There's a level of trust.
He says, "I'm still okay, my love, but I'm stuck in Orem for a little while longer. Shouldn't be long until I can come home, but I got to grab my rifle still." Then he says, allegedly, "If I'm able to grab my rifle on scene, I will have left no evidence".
I guess, Tim, what I'm curious about is could anybody actually sane in the layperson sense of the word, right, that we're all sitting here, think that after texting all of that, that after putting all this in a text to anybody, that there was any chance that they'd get away with it?
CLEMENTE: I think it's preposterous. But again, we're trying to add logic to a situation that's totally illogical. And the situation is that he thought -- he was bragging, and I think he thought he would get adulation from his lover because of the act he just committed. I'm pretty sure he was shocked by the fact that he was asked why he did it, and was it was it really him that did it?
I don't think he was expecting that. I think he was expecting praise. He didn't get that. And then in the end he says, please delete all these. And, you know, did express concern for the for the roommate. But -- that didn't matter enough to him to not do what he did. BURNETT: No.
And, Jana, you know, he does talk about his love and care for his roommate. At one point he says, "I'm sorry to involve you." And when he decided to surrender, which obviously, you know, he did because of his father, prosecutors say that he wrote, quote, "I'm going to turn myself in willingly. One of my neighbors here is a deputy for the sheriff. You are all I worry about, love."
What does that tell you, Jana?
MONROE: I think he really is in love with his roommate. I think he was trying to protect him.
But I agree with Tim also that he felt that his actions and the reason he was conveying them to the roommate is that he would be seen more of as a hero, an anti-hero, if you will, and strong, and somebody who was in control.
[19:15:04]
I mean, he was able to -- he carried out his act that he had been planning, and then he was able to give him a detailed -- his roommate, detailed description of what he was doing in the moment in which he was doing it. So, I think it was it was kind of what I'd call a deliberate self-presentation where he was consciously trying to project this image of calmness and control.
BURNETT: I appreciate all of you. Thank you so much.
And next, we do have new details about Tyler Robinson's relationship with his parents. I mentioned his father, but it was the parents who turned their son in. So crucial to this, that relationship. Prosecutors say Robinson was talking about his, quote, "old man," even in the hours after the shooting.
So why? And what does that mean?
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She'd probably go after people like you because you treat me so unfairly. It's hate. You have a lot of hate in your heart.
REPORTER: Would that be appropriate?
TRUMP: Maybe they'll come after --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: So, what do those threats from Trump mean? Will anything happen? Will he be held to account?
And a legend, a genius, an icon Robert Redford dead at the age of 89. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much can you tell me about Deep Throat?
ROBERT REDFORD, ACTOR: How much do you need to know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:43]
BURNETT: Breaking news, the father, new text messages just released by prosecutors show that in the moments after Charlie Kirk's murder, the suspected shooter was worried about his father. Specifically, that his father would be mad at him for using his grandfather's gun and not bringing it back.
The brand-new court filing says Tyler Robinson texted his romantic partner and roommate, quote, "I'm worried what my old man would do if I didn't bring back grandpa's rifle. I worry about prints. I had to leave it in a bush where I changed outfits. Didn't have the ability or time to bring it with. I might have to abandon it and hope they don't find prints. How the F will I explain using losing it to my old man?"
It's just an odd thing, right, is his obsession with his father finding out that the gun was missing as opposed to the crime itself. Just one of many new details we are learning about the suspect and his relationship with his parents. They were, of course, the ones who ultimately turned him in and got him to surrender.
And Tom Foreman is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRAY: When asked why he did it, Robinson explained, there is too much evil, and the guy, referring to Charlie Kirk, spreads too much hate.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Authorities say the parents of Tyler Robinson are saying plenty about talks with their son, even as the accused killer of Charlie Kirk is keeping quiet.
According to investigators, Robinson's parents confirmed that he drove a gray car similar to one they were seeking that he'd been aware of Kirk's nearby public appearance, and --
GRAY: The day after the shooting, Robinson's mother saw the photo of the shooter in the news and thought the shooter looked like her son.
FOREMAN: When the mother talked to the father, investigators say he agreed. What's more?
GRAY: He also believed that the rifle that police suspected the shooter used matched a rifle that was given to his son as a gift.
FOREMAN: That dovetails with court documents that cite an alleged message exchange between Robinson and a roommate, after investigators say the supposed murder weapon was left in the woods. "I'm worried what my old man would do if I didn't bring back grandpa's rifle. How the F will I explain losing it to my old man?"
Robinson goes on, "My dad wants photos of the rifle. He says grandpa wants to know who has what. The feds released a photo of the rifle, and it is very unique. He's calling me right now, not answering. Since Trump got into office, my dad has been pretty diehard MAGA."
Growing up in a deep red, deeply religious area, the suspects family has been painted by public officials as traditionally conservative.
TRUMP: It seems like his wonderful parents brought in a wonderful neighborhood, smart guy, great boards, great marks, great student. And then something happened to him over a fairly short period of time.
FOREMAN: According to court documents, his mother explained that over the last year or so, Robinson had started to lean more to the left, becoming more pro-gay and trans rights-oriented. She stated that Robinson began to date his roommate, a biological male who was transitioning genders. This resulted in several discussions with family members, but especially between Robinson and his father.
In the end, however, authorities say the parents are the very ones who drew a critical statement from their son.
GRAY: As they discussed the situation. Robinson implied that he was the shooter and stated that he couldn't go to jail and just wanted to end it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN (on camera): Authorities have gone out of their way to praise the family for their cooperation in all of this, and in doing so, to really acknowledge the difficulty of the situation, to offer testimony that their son may have been involved in killing another man, testimony that if he is convicted, could end his own life -- Erin.
BURNETT: Thank you very much, Tom.
And I want to go now to retired FBI profiler Jim Clemente.
And, Jim, you know that that part of the court filing that says Robinson said, "I'm worried what my old man would do if I didn't bring back grandpa's rifle. You know, he gets into details. I worry about the prints. I had to leave. I might have to abandon it and hope they don't find it. How the F will I explain losing it to my old man?
You know, look, it's hard to say.
[19:25:01]
But as a profiler, you can look at this and see more than anyone else. He allegedly had just shot and killed a man. He'd assassinated a human being. Okay? And in the after his anger and fear is about his father and what his father will do when he finds out that the gun is missing, does that tell you anything?
CLEMENTE: Right. Well, first of all, it just indicates that he has a very skewed perspective. I mean, obviously, the difference between getting in trouble with his father and murdering a human being is drastic, yet, he's more worried about the lesser crime or lesser problem.
I think the father represents morals and ideals to him, and he doesn't subscribe to them, and therefore he didn't fit in well. And that could lead to a really poor self-image, which led this guy to decide that he wanted to do something outrageous, to feel better about himself, to feel more powerful.
BURNETT: And the father does come up a lot in the filing. It shows that Robinson said his father was die hard MAGA. Robinson's mother has said that her son became much more liberal politically, and that there had been conversations between him and his father, right, that they didn't agree.
And then it says that that these conversations resulted in several discussions with family members, but especially between Robinson and his father, who have very different political views. And what pattern do you see here, Jim?
CLEMENTE: Well, obviously, his father has the social skills to discuss this with his son. His son, though secretly, at least for the last week, has been harboring this incredibly violent way to address this issue. This is not the first thing he should have been thinking of. This is not the first way that you address an issue. If he had a problem with somebody's political ideologies or what they said in public, then he certainly could have addressed it one on one.
He could have talked to a number of people, but that's not what he chose to do. And this is where he indicates what's really going on in his mind. I think I've said it before, genetics actually loads the gun, personality and psychology aims it, and psychology and experiences pull the trigger. And that psychology and personality, you participate in the formation of that through the thousands of little decisions that you make in your mind.
And so, instead of going away from that violence, he embraced it instead of trying to deal like a normal human being, he decided he wanted to go towards extreme violence.
BURNETT: And, you know, you say all those parts, but, you know, when you talk about genetics as well, you are though, Jim, I know of the belief that the parents actions suggest that they didn't have any idea what their son was capable of.
CLEMENTE: Right. And I'm not saying that genetics made him do this. What I'm saying -- it just -- he had the potential, that's all. He could definitely have fought that potential, gone against it. But I think that he made a lot of decisions in his brain. And maybe a lot of them occurred over the last year or so.
But he made decisions in his own brain that he was going to do something outrageous so that he could feel better about himself.
BURNETT: All right. Jim, well, I appreciate your time. Thank you.
CLEMENTE: Thank you. Thank you.
BURNETT: And next, Trump's chilling effect on free speech now threatening to go after reporters, he says, for having hate in their hearts.
And senators confront the FBI Director Kash Patel today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: If you want to talk about.
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): Dividing this country.
PATEL: It is my time.
BOOKER: I follow you on your social media posts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:33:10]
BURNETT: Breaking news, an assault on free speech. President Trump making a thinly veiled threat to ABC News journalist Jonathan Karl after Karl asked Trump to clarify how his administration will crack down on hate speech in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: She'd go after people like you because you treat me so unfairly. It's hate. You have a lot of hate in your heart.
REPORTER: Would that be appropriate?
TRUMP: Maybe they'll come after ABC.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And again after that, he said they could come after you. That came after Attorney General Pam Bondi made a promise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We will absolutely target you. Go after you. If you are targeting anyone with hate speech, anything. And that's across the aisle.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: Of course, hate speech. The whole fundamental point is that in so many areas is subjective. And Secretary of State Marco Rubio is revealing that the U.S. has denied visas to people, quote, "celebrating Kirk's killing".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: We've most certainly been denying visas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And Vice President J.D. Vance encouraged people to report Kirk's critics to their employers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, when you see someone celebrating Charlie's murder, call them out -- and hell, call their employer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. David Axelrod is OUTFRONT now.
David, you know, starting with what the president said to Jonathan Karl, who asked, you know, very basic and important question. What effect does all of this have on people?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think it's meant to have a chilling effect on people, for sure. This is sort of fundamentally antithetical to the precepts of our democracy. Trust me, I work for a president and people -- there are plenty of people who said some really vile things about him.
[19:35:03]
But no one ever thought to say, we're going to use the power of the government or the Justice Department to stop them from speaking, or to stop a reporter from asking a question or reporting, you know the answer to that question.
Cancel culture, no matter whether it comes in a red shade or a blue shade, is wrong. And I agree with my conservative friends who have reacted with such vehemence about this, because once you start messing around with this, you're going to the core of what makes America great. And they don't want to see it damaged. I don't want to see it damaged and threatened in this way.
This was a very ominous exchange that the president had. And certainly, the attorney general's comments were as well.
BURNETT: Right. And, you know, as you say, there are, of course, are plenty of Republicans elected who support the crackdown from the White House, right? I mean, some of them I just played. But others have come out and said no. And that targeting speech that you feel is hateful violates the constitution. And let me just play two of them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): The First Amendment absolutely protects speech. It absolutely protects hate speech. It protects vile speech.
REP. DON BACON (R-NE): People have a right to bad speech. We have a right to not like it. But that's different than making it illegal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. So, you know, and I should say they said those things after the exchange with Jonathan Karl. So, I just want to be clear. Right. That, that that context would have, should have been known at that point. But does the White House -- does Trump, David, face any political risk for this?
AXELROD: Well, he doesn't seem to care that much about -- he seems to feel like his base will rally around him. So, we shall see. I think conservatives may be disillusioned. Will they walk away from him? We haven't seen any evidence of that in other instances in the last seven or eight months.
But let me say a couple of things, Erin. First of all, it was sickening. And reprehensible for anyone to celebrate the murder of any human being and the murder of Charlie Kirk in the -- you know, as we all witnessed last week. And so that is terribly bad thing to do. It, you know, but that, it seems to me, is within our rights as Americans to say things that are in bad, that are in bad taste.
It strikes me that it's not -- it's not unfair for people to be critical of things that he said. And it's also important to remember things that he said, because it seems to me that this notion that the government and the president of the United States and his political apparatchiks are going to decide what is hate speech and what isn't, and then use the Justice Department to go after people, that is completely antithetical to the principles that Charlie Kirk expressed in his life.
BURNETT: Right. And how he liked to engage in debate. But as you point out, it's a slippery slope, right? Celebrating the killing. Everyone should be able to agree that that's a horrible thing to do. Excuse me, but I'm sorry. Then having to say that he's a martyr, and anything short of that is hate speech is where the problem begins.
Let me ask this other question.
AXELROD: Yeah. We should -- we should be -- we should -- we should be careful to call out if it -- it begins to appear that, that his memory is actually being exploited to try and chill opposition speech, that would be a very, perverse memorial to Charlie Kirk. I hope that, we don't see more of that.
BURNETT: And I want to ask you before we go, because I know former President Obama is speaking tonight for the first time since Kirk's death. He obviously did post on social media. It was a despicable act that had no place in our democracy. But, you know, we -- we've -- we've heard, Trump's been very clear, right? He says that there is a problem. That problem is only on the left. And he is going to go after that problem. Right. They've called the left domestic terrorists.
What will Obama say tonight do you think?
AXELROD: Well, I think look, we all know and remember how he conducted himself as president and frankly, how every other president has conducted themselves in moments of crisis here, whether it was Bill Clinton when the Oklahoma city bombing happened or President Obama in that church in Savannah or in Tucson, it's the responsibility of the president to be a healing force to heal the breach in these instances, and not to use it as a way to step on the pedal of political repression and targeting of one's political opponents.
And I would be very surprised. I don't know what he's going to say tonight, but I know him, and I know these are principles that he holds very dear.
[19:40:01]
And by the way, you know as I think I said before, but he -- you know, he was -- there were plenty of people who had plenty of very vile things to say about him, about his family. No one liked it. We didn't like it. No one said, don't -- you know, you can't do it. And so, I think he'll have plenty to say on that.
BURNETT: All right, David, thank you very much.
AXELROD: Good to see you.
BURNETT: Trump has just arrived in the U.K., and he was greeted by -- well, you can see that there himself and Jeffrey Epstein projected on the walls of Windsor Castle. This is his own FBI director was unable to handle questions about the Epstein investigation on Capitol Hill.
You'll hear what Kash Patel said.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT REDFORD, ACTOR: Corey, I can't kiss you anymore. My lips are numb. Now, will you please go inside?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: We remember the legendary actor Robert Redford, who passed away at the age of 89.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:45:07]
BURNETT: All right. Breaking tonight, the FBI Director Kash Patel was in multiple shouting matches on Capitol Hill today, facing a barrage of questions about the Epstein files fired FBI agents and his handling of the Charlie Kirk investigation.
Brian Todd is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOOKER: You claim that you have a suspect in a serious assassination. Whoops. Then you don't have a suspect.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Democratic Senator Cory Booker accused FBI Director Kash Patel of not being fit to lead the bureau. Then Booker slammed his booklet shut and the fireworks really started.
BOOKER: I think you're not going to be around long. I think this might be your last oversight hearing, because as much as you supplicate yourself to the will of Donald Trump and not the Constitution of the United States of America, he is not loyal to people like you. He will cut you loose.
PATEL: That rant of false information does not bring this country together. If you want to work on bringing this country -- it's my time, not yours.
BOOKER: My God, my God!
(CROSSTALK)
PATEL: If you want to talk about --
BOOKER: -- dividing this country.
PATEL: It is my time.
BOOKER: I follow you on your social media posts that tear the country apart.
PATEL: To address your falsehoods.
(CROSSTALK)
BOOKER: You can try all you want --
(CROSSTALK)
PATEL: -- to division in this country --
(CROSSTALK)
BOOKER: -- to not take responsibility for what --
PATEL: You had your time.
BOOKER: Sir --
PATEL: Your time is over.
BOOKER: -- your mocking of this committee.
TODD: Patel admitted he could have been more careful with his wording about the subject, who he said was in custody right after the shooting of Charlie Kirk. He later had to walk that back. Republican senators repeatedly defended Patel over many issues, including his handling of the Kirk case.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): I've seen no reason to -- for the armchair quarterbacks to be criticizing his performance. I think it's been commendable. It took roughly 33 hours to arrest the Charlie Kirk killer.
TODD: Patel was asked by Republican Senator John Kennedy about Jeffrey Epstein's alleged sex trafficking.
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): You've seen most of the files. Who, if anyone, did Epstein traffic these young women to, besides himself?
PATEL: Himself. There is no credible information. None. If there were, I would bring the case yesterday that he trafficked to other individuals. And the information we have, again is limited.
KENNEDY: So, the answer is no one?
PATEL: For the information that we have.
KENNEDY: In the files?
PATEL: In the case file.
TODD: After Patel said the Bureau of Prisons decided to send Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell to a minimum security prison camp, his exchange with Democrat Adam Schiff got heated.
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Do you want the American people to believe that? Do you think they're stupid?
PATEL: No. I think the American people believe the truth that I'm not in the weeds on the everyday movements of inmates.
SCHIFF: Oh, you're not in the weeds --
(CROSSTALK)
PATEL: What I am doing is protecting this country, providing historic reform and combating the weaponization of intelligence by the likes of you. And we have countlessly proven you to be a liar in Russiagate, in January 6th. You are the biggest fraud to ever sit in the United States Senate. You are a disgrace to this institution and an utter coward.
SCHIFF: I'm not surprised.
PATEL: I'm not surprised that you continue to lie from your perch and put on a show so you can go raise money for your charade. You are a political buffoon at best. (END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (on camera): Senator Schiff countered that Patel will, quote, always be nothing more than an Internet troll. Patel fired back that all the Democrats care about is a child sex predator who was prosecuted by prior administrations, and he said the Obama and Biden Justice Departments, quote, did squat about Jeffrey Epstein. The hearing ended shortly after that exchange -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right, Brian, thank you very much. It's an embarrassing hearing, but I guess everyone's used to it now.
So, Elie --
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
BURNETT: Elie Honig, senior legal analyst, of course. And I want everyone to know you've got a new book as well, "When You Come At The King: Inside DOJ's Pursuit of the President, From Nixon to Trump".
So, congratulations, Elie.
I want to start with -- where Brian just finished, though, this Jeffrey Epstein. So, Trump's in the U.K. tonight, okay? And he gets there in Windsor Castle. There's these big projections of himself and Jeffrey Epstein. Obviously, Trump hasn't been accused of wrongdoing in that. But we know about the letter from allegedly from Epstein's 50th birthday. We know that -- that, you know, Trump's been told by his own DOJ that he's in the files.
So, when Kash Patel says a blanket statement that the FBI has no credible information, none that Jeffrey Epstein trafficked other individuals. Obviously, again, Trump hasn't been accused of wrongdoing, but we know that there are other men that the victims have accused. We know Ghislaine Maxwell is in prison for trafficking girls to Jeffrey Epstein and other individuals.
HONIG: Yeah.
BURNETT: So, so, so, what in the world is Kash Patel saying?
HONIG: I couldn't begin to answer that. Does anybody believe this? Does anybody believe in a world where it was just Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein trafficking girls back and forth?
And by the way, in addition to being illogical and implausible, there have been dozens of civil suits brought where victims have alleged that they were trafficked to and sexually abused by dozens of other men.
[19:50:10]
So that is completely non-credible.
BURNETT: Yeah. So, okay. So now, you know, in the context here, your book is, you know, just when we were talking with David Axelrod, right?
HONIG: Yeah.
BURNETT: With free speech. And what's happening in this country, "When You Come At The King", you include more than 35 on the record interviews, looking at historical moments that may matter for right now.
HONIG: Right.
BURNETT: Key players from Watergate, from Ken Starr's team, investigations into both Biden and Trump. So how does it tie into the moment that we are in right now, which even in this past week has been sharpened?
HONIG: It's a great question.
So, this is largely a history. It's an inside history told by the people who lived it, from Watergate prosecutors on to defense lawyers for Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Hunter Biden, you name it, right? Dozens of people.
I think that we have to understand the history first, firsthand, in order to understand where we are right now, because, as Ax was saying to you, and I agree with this, where we are right now is different in kind. It is a different moment than anything we've seen from Watergate up until now -- and I include Trump won in that Trump's first term. When you look back at it, was markedly different from this.
Remember, we remember Robert Mueller, right?
BURNETT: Right.
HONIG: Trump hated having that investigation. I talked to several members of Mueller's team. I talked to White House staffers with Trump.
He undermined him. He obstructed him. But he didn't knock him out. He let him finish his work. Now we're in a different world where Trump has made clear nobody's going to be looking at me or anyone around me, and we're getting vengeance, payback, on whether it's Jack Smith, Letitia James, anyone who ever crossed me. And that's historically different.
BURNETT: Historically different. And back to the threat that he made today against a reporter. He actually made it against another reporter as well from Australia. So --
HONIG: Yeah.
BURNETT: It's getting broader.
HONIG: Well, one of the people I talk to in here is Carl Bernstein. I just ran into him in the hall.
BURNETT: Yeah. HONIG: And let's remember what a hero Carl is, right? He's a man who
exposed deep corruption by the then-President Richard Nixon. Prosecutors took that information, worked with it, built it up, and Nixon, you know, he infamously fired Archibald Cox, who was the independent prosecutor. I talked to two prosecutors from his team who said, we went in the next morning, and Cox said, you stay, you do this job, you get this job done.
I found that to be inspiring and something hopefully we can draw, draw some inspiration from.
BURNETT: And perhaps hope that there may be some ties between now and then and that sort of regard as well.
HONIG: Yeah.
BURNETT: Individual and their individual behavior.
All right, Elie, thank you very much.
HONIG: Thanks, Erin.
BURNETT: And again, "When You Come At The King", available now. I know you're going on "Morning Joe" tomorrow.
HONIG: It's my whole cast.
BURNETT: So good luck with that. That'll be, that'll be, that'll be fun -- that'll be fun. All right.
And next, an icon of Hollywood has passed. By the way, someone who, you know, played one of the key roles in the movie about Watergate, Robert Redford, who starred in more than 50 movies, has died. A special look back at his amazing career, next.
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[19:56:54]
BURNETT: Hollywood icon Robert Redford has died, and Elizabeth Wagmeister is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From romance and sports to journalism and politics. Robert Redford influenced culture throughout his remarkable life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much can you tell me about deep throat?
REDFORD: How much do you need to know?
WAGMEISTER: In "All the President's Men", he played Bob Woodward, half of the now iconic reporting duo that uncovered Watergate.
REDFORD: Supposedly, he's got a lawyer with $25,000 in a brown paper bag.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Follow the money.
REDFORD: I just felt that I was a very fortunate to be there at a glory point for journalism that saved our First Amendment.
WAGMEISTER: Born in Santa Monica, California, in 1936, Redford later moved to New York to study acting. His breakout came on Broadway in 1963's "Barefoot in the Park", a role he reprised on the big screen with Jane Fonda.
JANE FONDA, ACTRESS: If you don't give me a real kiss, I'm going to give you back your pajamas right now.
REDFORD: Then wait --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's the matter with you?
REDFORD: I can't swim.
WAGMEISTER: Redford's first blockbuster came with 1969 "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid".
Even in the '60s and '70s, his leading man looks made him a heartthrob.
REDFORD: I was kind of feeling trapped because I couldn't go outside the box of leading man or good-looking leading man.
WAGMEISTER: He starred with Barbra Streisand in 1973's "The Way We Were". The following year, earning his first Oscar nomination for "The Sting". His first Oscar win came in 1981 as a director for "Ordinary People". He forged a prolific career behind the camera while creating unforgettable characters on screen in "The Natural", "Out of Africa" with Meryl Streep, and later with Demi Moore in "Indecent Proposal".
GLENN CLOSE, CO-STARRED WITH REDFORD IN "THE NATURAL": Always very, very authentic in his passions which was Native Americans and their art, the environment and the Sundance Institute.
WAGMEISTER: That institute led to the Sundance Film Festival, which Redford established in Utah, where he lived since 1961, to nurture independent filmmakers. Now it's one of Hollywood's most important film festivals.
In 1989, Redford started the Sundance catalog to showcase jewelry and clothing from artists inspired by the American West. Though passionate for the environment, Redford said he never considered a life in politics.
REDFORD: I don't think that I would be a good politician because I don't find compromise that easy.
WAGMEISTER: During #metoo, Redford stood up for women, telling me on the red carpet for his final film, 2018's "The Old Man and the Gun", that he welcomed the movement. REDFORD: The fact that women now have a voice that's going to be heard
and they're going to raise it louder and louder, I hope, because they've been pushed aside for so long.
WAGMEISTER: Though he left the limelight, Redford's legacy stands at the top of Hollywood. An artist advocate, an innovator for multiple generations.
REDFORD: When you're being raised, you want to make the most of your life. I mean, I guess that's what I decided. I want to make the most of what I've been given.
WAGMEISTER: Elizabeth Wagmeister, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: And thanks to Elizabeth and to all of you for being with us.
"AC360" starts now.
