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Erin Burnett Outfront
Speaker Johnson Sued Over Failure To Seat Dem Needed For Epstein Vote; NYT: Trump Demands DOJ Pay Him $230 Million For Cases Against Him; New Image Reveals Shocking Scale Of Demolition At White House; Trump Pick Drops Out After KFILE Report, More Vile Statements Surface. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired October 21, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:14]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
Breaking news, the House speaker sued for refusing to swear in the newest member of the House, a member who happens to be the key vote in getting the Epstein files released. Arizona's attorney general, who just filed the suit, is my guest.
Plus, Trump says it's music to his ears celebrating the demolition of the White House as we have a jaw dropping new photo of that construction project of Trump's.
And the White House this hour, saying a top Trump nominee is now, quote, under review as even more vile more vile statements are coming to light following a KFILE investigation that first aired right here.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, forcing Speaker Johnsons hand on the Epstein investigation. In a major escalation tonight, the attorney general of Arizona and Congresswoman-elect Adelita Grijalva of Arizona are suing Mike Johnson, and they're suing him because Grijalva has not been sworn in.
So, what does all this have to do with Jeffrey Epstein? Because it does at its heart.
Grijalva is the final vote needed for a bipartisan maneuver called a discharge petition, that goes around Johnson -- goes around Johnson because he does not want a vote to release the full Epstein files. This would go around him. Get that vote to release the files.
Grijalva was elected in Arizona 28 days ago, a whole month. And Johnson has in that time used every excuse not to swear her in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Look, I will schedule it, I guess, as soon as she wants. It has nothing to do with -- As soon as the Democrats open -- vote to reopen the government.
She deserves to have all the pomp and circumstance that everybody else does have. Her family and friends in the balcony.
INTERVIEWER: So if she flies in her family, would you guys do it?
JOHNSON: Representative Grijalva, she'll get the full bells and whistles.
INTERVIEWER: You understand how this looks, right?
JOHNSON: Because we don't schedule things for pro forma.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And when Grijalva called Johnson out on not swearing her in and doing it, she says to protect Jeffrey Epstein and his high powered clients, Johnson had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Bless her heart, she's a representative elect. She doesn't know how it works around here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Well, putting the condescension aside, she does know she's supposed to be sworn in. That, of course, is democracy 101, right? You get elected by the people of your state and you get sworn in. That's democracy.
And tonight, the Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes whom I'll be speaking to in just a moment, writes, and I quote in this lawsuit, Speaker Johnson has not identified any valid reason for refusing to promptly seat Ms. Grijalva, instead on information and belief, Speaker Johnson wishes to delay seating Ms. Grijalva to prevent her from signing a discharge petition that would force a vote on the release of the Epstein files.
And just a few moments ago, Johnson just responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: I think its patently absurd. We run the House. She has no jurisdiction. We're following the precedent. She's looking for national publicity. Apparently, she's gotten some of it, but good luck with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Johnson on defense. And it is not just because of this specific lawsuit that was just filed. It is actually because Republicans, members of his own party in the House, are speaking out because many of them want the Epstein files released now. And they know that Grijalva's vote is the key to that. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): It baffles me. To me, this is the easiest one to do. This is standing up for women and children who are raped, who are victims of sex trafficking. And this is for victims that are -- that are facing horrible consequences right now due to abuse. And I can't understand why this has been the -- seemingly the biggest fight in Washington, D.C. It certainly shouldn't be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
She's completely right about that. It all comes on the same day. The memoir of the most high-profile Epstein accuser, Virginia Giuffre, was published. Giuffre died by suicide after the decades of suffering she endured. She died earlier this year. But before she took her own life, she documented the unimaginable abuse that she suffered because of Jeffrey Epstein and his accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell, who of course, is convicted. Abuse that Virginia writes from, quote, came from a multitude of powerful men. Among them were a gubernatorial candidate who was soon to win election in a western state, and a former U.S. senator.
Since Epstein usually neglected to introduce me to these men by name or introduce them at all, I would only learn who some of them were years later, when I studied photographs of Epstein's associates and recognized the faces of those I was forced to have sex with.
Giuffre even documents her abuse from a prime minister. In that case, she writes that he, quote, wasn't interested in caresses.
[19:05:01]
He wanted violence. He repeatedly choked me until I lost consciousness and took pleasure in seeing me in fear for my life. Horrifically, the prime minister laughed when he hurt me and got more aroused when I begged him to stop.
I mean, this is despicable stuff. Its pretty awful to have to sit here and even read sentences like that. Never mind to imagine there's a person who wrote them because they happened to her, because not one of those men has been held accountable. Not one.
And many of them, right now, as we speak, are in circles of high society. Their friends might even see this. Their friends might even suspect or know, but they're just continuing along in high society. And that is wrong. And they must face accountability.
Releasing the Epstein files should not be one of the biggest fights in Washington. Marjorie Taylor Greene is right about that, and perhaps Johnson is starting to feel the pressure because earlier today he was on the defense about the Epstein vote, saying to "Politico", quote, the bipartisan house oversight committee is already accomplishing what the discharge petition, the gambit sought and much more.
It's important to just get to the bottom of this, though, when that is said, if that argument is made to point out that that is false because the Oversight Committee, they are doing work, but they are releasing documents that are only a fraction of what exists.
According to Ro Khanna on the committee, he and obviously he's a Democrat. Massie, Republican. The files are just one gigabyte, one gigabyte of what the oversight committee has. Thats what they have. There are 300 gigabytes of files that are known that the FBI said exist. So that is 1/300 of the total, right? And much of that one 1/300 was already known to be public.
Johnson knows all of this. So, when he is claiming he is all for transparency in this and when it comes to Epstein saying if it comes, if it hits 218, it comes to the floor, that's how it works. If you get the signatures, it goes to a vote.
Well, of course, in a sense that's talking in circles because you only get to 218 if -- why do we just talk about Epstein for a few minutes? Because you actually have to seek Congresswoman-elect Adelita Grijalva. She has to be sworn in. That is the 218th vote.
And perhaps Grijalva herself has said it best. Here's what she told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP.-ELECT ADELITA GRIJALVA (D-AZ): So if this has nothing to do with the Epstein files, then swear me in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Kris Mayes is the Democratic attorney general of Arizona. She's OUTFRONT. She, along with Congresswoman-elect Grijalva, has just filed a lawsuit against the against the house of representatives for refusing to seat Grijalva. And this is the attorney general's first interview since filing that suit.
So, Attorney General Mayes, I appreciate your time. And, you know, we have this breaking news. You're filing the suit. And just moments ago, we heard from Speaker Johnson, just responding to your suit. He says, and I quote him, it's patently absurd. We run the house. She has no jurisdiction, end quote. What do you say to him? What's the basis for your lawsuit?
KRIS MAYES (D), ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, what we're saying to him and what we're asking a court to do is, you know, declare that if Mike Johnson refuses to do his job, that Adelita Grijalva can be sworn in by a judge or any other person with the capability under the law to swear her in. And, you know, Mike Johnson, can end this tomorrow by swearing Adelita in. She was duly elected by the people of Arizona, and we now have 813,000 Arizonans who are being taxed without representation in our state because Mike Johnson refuses to swear her in.
So, you know, we didn't want to have to file this lawsuit, but it's been four weeks now, Erin, since she was elected, four weeks where she has not been able to do her job, serve her constituents. Weve got issues here, including flooding in her district. She hasn't been able to serve veterans and deal with other issues like Social Security. It's time. Time's up.
BURNETT: So how quickly? You're saying a judge could do this, someone could get her seated right away. How quickly do you expect this lawsuit to move? I mean, essentially, is this something that could really result in her getting seated, sworn in by a judge or somebody in the next day or two? Or is this something more to make a point of precedent? And by the time this all works its way through, Johnson will have eventually done it.
MAYES: Well, I mean, yeah, I wish Johnson would do it right now. In fact, she I believe the congresswoman elect is in her in in D.C. right now. He could walk over to her office right now and do it.
Look, we are hoping that this lawsuit results quickly in Adelita Grijalva being sworn in. And, you know, were going to a judge in Washington, D.C., asking that judge to declare that she is eligible to be sworn in. And if Mike Johnson and the house of representatives run by the Republicans right now refuse, refuse to do it, that someone else can do it so she can.
BURNETT: Have you had any interactions with Speaker Johnson about this?
[19:10:02]
I mean, I know you had initially sent a letter to him that was eight days ago, and you threatened the lawsuit, and now he's responding, obviously, in the statement that we have. But have you had any interaction with him at all at this point?
MAYES: I mean, sadly, no. I mean, all we -- all we have heard from Speaker Johnson is basically comments on shows like yours. And, you know, he has not responded directly to us and he's basically thumbing his nose at 813,000 Arizonans who don't have a representative in my state is now down a representative. That's not okay. It violates the Constitution. It violates the law.
BURNETT: So, Attorney General, Speaker Johnson has given a lot of reasons, and it has shifted and changed over time. That is just a matter of fact. But he has given reasons why he hasn't seated Grijalva, and I wanted to play some of them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Look, we'll schedule it, I guess, as soon as she wants.
As soon as the Democrats open vote to reopen the government.
She deserves to have all the pomp and circumstance that everybody else does. She deserves to have a full house of members and go down and do the speech and have her family and friends in the balcony.
INTERVIEWER: You understand how this looks, right?
JOHNSON: We have to have a schedule, because we don't schedule things for pro forma.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I know in your filing, attorney general, you said you believe the real reason is. And I quote from your filings, Speaker Johnson wishes to delay seating Ms. Grijalva to prevent her from signing a discharge petition that would force a vote on the release of the Epstein files and or to strengthen his hand in the ongoing budget and appropriations negotiations.
Now, I just want to be clear when you talk about Epstein, that's something that Republican Congressman Thomas Massie has also said, right? You're not going out on a limb there with that point. But I wanted to ask you this because you have a lawsuit.
Have you accessed explicit evidence of any sort of his motive -- of Speaker Johnson's motive from witnesses or communications?
MAYES: Well, look, I think you can certainly infer motive from the fact that he keeps giving, you know, different answers to your questions. I mean, I think you just played six different reasons that he's given for not wearing Adelita Grijalva in.
And, you know, I don't know, it just doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that, you know, she has declared herself to be the final vote on the discharge petition. And for some reason, he refuses to swear in her in even though he swore in two Republican members of Congress under exactly the same circumstances.
So, whatever his reasons are, they're completely you know, violative of the law. They're illegitimate. And the law says that she must be sworn in.
BURNETT: Attorney General Mayes, we appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.
MAYES: Thank you, Erin.
BURNETT: And OUTFRONT now is Annie Farmer. She was a victim of Jeffrey Epstein, who has testified that she was a teenager when she was recruited and sexually assaulted by Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.
Viewers of our show may remember when we spoke to Annie's sister, Maria, who was also an Epstein victim.
I am really grateful, Annie, for you choosing to speak out tonight.
I know that Johnson said today that that Epstein petition, right? Which Grijalva's vote is crucial for her vote gets that over the finish line. He said it doesn't actually matter. He called it totally superfluous because he says the oversight committee is going through documents and they're releasing things like phone logs and calendars.
He's right. They are going through documents. These things are being released. But as we pointed out, they are one gigabyte versus 300 gigabytes of the full FBI Epstein files that we even know, of which the committee does not have.
So, Annie, with the perspective that you have at this moment, with what you endured in your life, what do you say to Speaker Johnson?
ANNIE FARMER, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: Well, first, thank you, Erin, for having me and for giving this story the time that I think it deserves. I'd say Speaker Johnson, you know, please follow through with the promise that you made to me and others when we met with you, you know, last month. You said that you wanted full transparency as efficiently as possible.
You made a point to say that your daughter had just been appointed to be a part of the investigation, and that you were fully committed to making sure we had transparency. And I think survivors have been very clear in standing with this act that this is this is something that we support. So, I'm baffled by this seeming turnaround. And on all the different excuses for, you know, not swearing in. Congresswoman, the congresswoman from Arizona, I just think it's extremely frustrating for us to feel like political pawns in this game, again.
BURNETT: Well, I mean, you -- as you said, you met with him and you know, you actually had had a conversation. I mean, it's got to be shocking to see this behavior after I assume, was a very different personal conversation.
[19:15:05]
FARMER: Yeah, I think it just one in like the latest baffling move by members of this administration and the government saying that they really want to get to the bottom of this. And then the -- their behavior, you know, is something very different from that is very contradictory. So, it's confusing. It's disturbing, and it's disappointing for many of us.
BURNETT: So, Annie, Ghislaine Maxwell obviously met with the deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, and after that meeting was very quickly moved to a minimum security federal prison. And, you know, the other day, I was talking to a prison consultant who has clients inside that facility, right? So, he's talking to families, people who know what's happening in there.
And he told me that it went on lockdown. He said other inmates were not allowed to leave their rooms for any reason while Maxwell met with visitors. And so, no one else was allowed to move so that they couldn't see who she met with. And this happened over several hours.
I know that you have reached out to Blanche. Has he ever responded to you?
FARMER: I've received no response yet to my -- to my letter where I outlined very clearly my concerns about him speaking with Maxwell. That was, I think, sent even before the prison transfer. But obviously that was also really confusing for many of us involved in this case. And then hearing more details out of that facility about how she's being treated and even how others are being punished for sharing information. Other prisoners. I just heard today of someone being moved to a maximum security prison
for just speaking, you know, with someone in the press, which is, of course, where she should be, right? So, I think it's -- that's what I'm referring to when I say these baffling, baffling choices. It's really hard to understand why -- why this would be unfolding this way.
BURNETT: So, Virginia Giuffre's book was released today. And obviously to, you know, to you, you know, she was Virginia. I know you knew her. You were in touch over the years, and I know you've had a chance to read some of her book already, although not all of it yet. It did just come out.
But she talks about how she, quote, came to be trafficked to a multitude of powerful men. And then she talks, Annie, about a call she got from one of Epstein's lawyers at a time when Epstein was under investigation. And she writes about this call.
She says, I don't remember which lawyer this was, but after he introduced himself, he explained that an investigation into Epstein was ongoing and that it was based on allegations made by women who had worked as strippers and prostitutes or who were drug addicts. I didn't need a translator to grasp his not-so-subtle point. The accusers had no credibility, and anyone who turned against Epstein was a skunk who would be discredited.
Do you see it the same way? And what is this moment like for you to see these things in print, which, of course, you lived so specifically yourself?
FARMER: I -- you know, I had not seen that passage in the book yet. But I am not surprised by it. It certainly was the narrative that Epstein tried to push that those that supported him tried to push. And it's disturbing.
You know, you look at someone like Virginia and as you learn about her history and everything that she had endured even previous to meeting, you know, these predators, it's just -- it's really disgusting to think of her enduring that kind of criticism. But yes, I, you know, I was a part of speaking. I know that, you know, my sister, Maria Farmer and I both spoke out as witnesses during that investigation.
You know, that did not describe, our histories or our professions, but its, you know, its kind of typical in this playbook of how women's credibility is attacked when powerful men are accused of crimes. And so, yeah, it's not surprising, but it is, it's upsetting to hear, you know, to think of her having to be pressured by attorneys that way.
BURNETT: Annie, thank you very much. I'm grateful that you took the time to talk tonight.
FARMER: Yes, of course. Thank you.
BURNETT: And next, we have some breaking news. Trump wants a quarter of $1 billion from his own Justice Department. This is according to "The New York Times". We're going to lay this out. Ty Cobb thinks there's another really important story to know tonight. We've got that.
And the White House mocking anyone who's complaining over the demolition of the east wing for the ballroom. And we have a shocking new picture just in to OUTFRONT. We're going to show you this. It's pretty incredible.
Like out of a movie. And breaking news, a top Trump nominee just withdrawing after a KFILE investigation uncovered a number of controversial statements.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:23:57]
BURNETT: Breaking news, President Trump tonight demanding his DOJ pay him $230 million to compensate for the federal investigations into him. This new reporting coming from "The New York Times".
Here's what Trump said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'd give it to charity or something. I would give it to charity, any money. But look, what they did, they rigged the election. Now, with the country, it's interesting because I'm the one that makes the decision, right? And you know, that decision would have to go across my desk. And it's awfully strange to make a decision where I'm paying myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Ty Cobb is OUTFRONT now, former Trump White House lawyer.
So, Ty, just, you know, in that soundbite, Trump really does cut to the chase in a sort of very way that's consistent with Trump. He's saying the decision to pay him a quarter billion dollars would, from his own DOJ would come across his desk. So, he's saying it's his choice, essentially to pay himself.
TY COBB, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: Yeah, I don't think he has any difficulty doing that. He took a $400 million plane from Qatar. You know, he's got real estate deals going on around the world.
[19:25:02]
He's shaking down law firms and shaking down universities. This guy doesn't have any difficulty trying to, you know, absorb, financial wealth. And, you know, the absurdity of the claims that he has filed, you know, in connection with the Russian investigation and more importantly, in connection with the classified documents case where whatever he did was far worse and more dangerous than anything Bolton is charged with in terms of classified information.
So, it's just crazy that he's demanded the money in the first place. But he fully expects that Todd Blanche or Pam Bondi will do his bidding and write him a check. BURNETT: I mean, it would seem -- I mean, from how you see it. Isn't
that a fair expectation? And just as in passing, obviously, the donate to charity his record on saying he would do that is not -- is not a great one.
COBB: Well, keep in mind, he gave a lot of money to, you know, the or took a lot of money out of the Trump University charity that he had. And you know, he's familiar with charities and he knows how to loot them.
BURNETT: So, I want to ask you about something else, ty, that I know you think is really significant. So, this is what happened today. Congresswoman -- Congressman Jim Jordan, who is the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, he is referring to John Brennan, the former director of the CIA, to the DOJ for criminal prosecution, right?
And this comes on the heels of Comey and others, right? But Jordan is doing this. He writes a letter to Attorney General Pam Bondi earlier today.
And you think that in this something really specific and important is going on. What is it, Ty?
COBB: Well, I think there's several things related to the Brennan investigation that can be briefly stated. And they are this which is, you know, immediately in the aftermath of Comey's or of the president's demand that Comey, James and Schiff be prosecuted. And installing his own personal lawyer to try to get that done, illegally appointing her in the process, the Brennan case picked up speed immediately.
You know, people -- FBI started contacting witnesses. There's a lot of activity going on. I think the -- I think the referral today is in the wake of the vindictive prosecution motion that Comey filed, which is very powerful, lays out the level of vindictiveness that we see and is designed in the Brennan case to sort of mute that.
In the sense that now they can say, well, it wasn't us. It was in response to a congressional referral. And since he lied in front of Congress, it's essentially the same as a victim complaint.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Ty Cobb, thank you very much. A pretty significant end around as you describe it. Thank you, Ty.
And next --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You probably hear the beautiful sound of construction to the back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Trump talking about parts of the White House being demolished, but "The Washington Post" has just obtained a new picture of the destruction. Were going to show it to you, go through the details. It is pretty shocking to see.
And the White House press secretary answering a question from a reporter, when they said, well, who asked to do something? And her response was, "Your mom." Biden's former press secretary, Karine Jean- Pierre, has something to say about that. She's OUTFRONT tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:32:30]
BURNETT: Tonight, a new jaw dropping photos showing parts of the East Wing of the White House demolished as Trump moves ahead with building a $200 million ballroom. The Trump administration mocking critics for, quote, clutching their pearls over President Donald J. Trump's visionary additions.
The teardown shocking many as Trump had assured construction would not interfere with the current building. Obviously, you know, this looks like something Kim Jong Un would put in some promotional video.
President Obama's photographer, Pete Souza posted, RIP to the people's house. This is a disgrace. The headline in the Drudge Report is all caps, quote, Trump's White House destruction.
But today, Trump celebrated the demolition work.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You probably hear the beautiful sound of construction to the back. You hear that sound? Oh, that's music to my ears. I love that sound.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Jamal Simmons and S.E. Cupp are here.
S.E., I was just watching you and Jamal's reaction, which, you know, two very different political worldviews, but a similar reaction to that particular sentiment. The photos are oddly disturbing, even if you're going ahead and you're adding something and you're doing -- I mean, it does to me when I look at it quickly, look like a Kim Jong Un propaganda video, right?
Of, you know, when he does the nukes on nukes on Washington or whatever it might be. There's something disturbing about it. But the White House says, don't clutch your pearls. How is that message landing?
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think we both reacted to it because we love America, and we've both been to that building. And it's a really special, intimidating, impressive historical building that tells the story of America for 223 years. And that look -- that reminded me of 9/11, that picture reminded me of 9/11.
BURNETT: Interesting.
CUPP: Very jarring. I'm not making any kind of connection. I'm just saying it is jarring to see the people's house.
BURNETT: It's an emotional reaction when you see that.
CUPP: Absolutely. And it would all be fine. Like renovating the White House if Trump weren't already fleecing the American public. You just reported on the $230 million bill he wants DOJ to pay him for those investigations.
House Oversight Committee just this week found out that Trump is charging American taxpayers 1,000 bucks a night, so that Secret Service can stay at Trump hotels when they're there guarding his family members.
He is fleecing the American public left and right. We don't know what the Arc to Trump is going to cost anyone. Meanwhile, farmers are hurting and we just gave Argentina a billion dollar bailout.
[19:35:01]
If we were all flush, right, and doing great. And this were like Reagan's economy, great. Go ahead, add gold leaf and every garish thing you want to the people's house. But people are hurting, and Trump is bragging about the sound of money as he tears up the White House.
BURNETT: And that picture, it's jarring, right? And anyone watching it has an emotional response. Whether you think it's great that they should have a bigger ballroom or not, there's an emotional response to it. Then in that context, Jamal, the Treasury Department sends an email to their employees who happen to work across from the demolition site saying they should refrain from taking and sharing photographs, which seems to indicate that they know that those photographs aren't a good look.
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's probably true. They do know the photographs aren't a good look. It may also be true, people shouldn't take pictures of those of that part of the building and disseminate them.
This is one of these things when you do communications planning --
BURNETT: Right, national security point, right, right.
SIMMONS: You're making communications, you don't want a thing that happens. So, you find a legitimate reason to tell people not to do it because there are security concerns. Maybe they're going to be things that are exposed in the infrastructure of the building that most people won't see, because it's not just true in the East Wing. It may be true in other parts of the building.
(CROSSTALK)
BURNETT: So, someone with a specific eye would absolutely see whatever random wire --
SIMMONS: I want to give them a little bit of leeway. It doesn't mean that they're trying to control the propaganda, because that may be true also.
Listen, I think what's happening, what we're seeing, this is a metaphor for the entire time were in as a country. The rules that we all thought existed don't seem to apply, because how is it that the president of the United States can just decide to tear down part of a national monument, part of the symbol of our government, without some planning commission or some group of eminent citizens that have been come together to decide what the best thing is to do next.
Now, he may have that right. We don't know. People are sourcing that, sorting that out, but it just seems like its happening so suddenly. But that's happening with everything, right? We're seeing the entire government change right before our eyes without really a sense of like what the order of it is. And this is the entire Trump presidency. It's why he probably got elected, and it's what he's doing.
BURNETT: I mean, S.E., okay, to the point that Jamal's making, when you look at the past, Truman has a total reconstruction of the White House interior. Gerald Ford puts an outdoor swimming pool in.
CUPP: Yeah.
BURNETT: Okay. And that was financed by private donation, which is what Trump is saying is financing this ballroom and may have a reason for this, where they say they can't have state dinners of enough size, right? So, someone could make the argument, well, look, this has happened before. This has -- and yet when you see that picture, we all have the emotional reaction we have.
Is that because you can't pull this out of the context of the moment we're in?
CUPP: Yeah, it's a bunch of things. It's seeing the, you know, DOGE take a wrecking ball to various institutions. It's a -- it's not a physical wrecking ball, but it's a wrecking ball nonetheless.
And, you know, I was just talking to I was just talking to Rahm Emanuel and having a, you know, a different kind of conversation. And, you know, he's very openly talking about maybe running in 2028. And I asked him like one of the most important things a Democrat will have to do if he or she wins is rebuild the American government that Donald Trump dismantled.
Some of that is physical rebuilding and reopening of departments and buildings, but some of it is also just rebuilding these institutions that Donald Trump has taken a wrecking ball to and listen, you're allowed to renovate. That's not the problem.
The problem is that the same president is selling meme coins and merch and fleecing his own supporters, and he's been doing that for years. The stop the steal is taking money from his supporters to help pay his legal bills, and Melania's stylist.
I mean, that's the grossness of this in particular.
SIMMONS: Yeah, I -- as I watch this, what I just see is I do see this as a moment where we are being challenged to figure out what's going to come next. I was on the phone earlier today with the former White House social secretary, who talked about the size of the formal dining rooms and how you can really only get 200, 220 people in for a dinner not very large. So, in her mind, the Democratic administration in her mind, get a new ballroom, get a new space. That's great.
How you do it matters, though, because the American people do want to see that this is going to happen in an orderly fashion. And it's not just this. It's Pete Hegseth and the signal chat. It's the U.S. attorney texting reporters in the middle of interview shows and perhaps giving out information that should be grand jury. There's a certain amount of incompetence that might exist in this government that I think ought to concern the American people. And as we hear this, I think it makes all of us wonder what's going to come next?
BURNETT: All right. Thank you both very much and next, if they go low, the quote is, now, I'm going to the gutter. Well, that is a quote. And it is from a Texas Democrat running for Congress who says the old Democratic playbook, you know, the Michelle Obama one is out. Is she right?
Plus, breaking news, Trump's pick for a top job just withdrawing after our KFILE uncovered controversial comments.
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[19:44:07]
BURNETT: Tonight, quote. If they go low, I'm going to the gutter. Those are the words of a Democratic Texas state representative who is now running for U.S. House seat, arguing that Democrats must, quote/unquote, "fight ugly" when it comes to Trump, telling "Axios", "I am not a when they go low, we go high person. I'm not that kind of girl. I just think that the days of following a playbook are over. There's no way I'm following rules when other people aren't. I come from a different world where everything isn't so pretty, like the Democrats want. Sometimes expletive is ugly and you've got to be able to fight ugly.:
OUTFRONT now, the former White House press secretary and special adviser to President Biden, Karine Jean-Pierre. Her new book, "Independent: A Look Inside A Broken White House Outside the Party Lines" released today. And obviously, "Independent" is what you are now, as opposed to being a Democrat.
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Yeah, yeah.
BURNETT: Okay, so can I just start with Michelle Obama, right? When they go low, we go high, right? It became an infamous line. It defined the party. And now you hear this, this Democrat saying not only saying when they go low, I go in the gutter also saying there's no way I'm following rules when other people aren't. Which is, I guess, what were seeing across society now.
Why do you think, now that you are independent, you have left the Democratic Party, why do you think Democrats are failing to meet this moment?
JEAN-PIERRE: That's the question that we're all asking. That's the question in this moment.
Look, I think there is a little bit of behaving as if it's politics as usual or everything is happening as normal, and it's not. We can't behave as if -- or react to situations per usual. These are unprecedented times. You have to lean in, you have to fight.
And these are the things that everyday Americans are asking for. Where are the Democrats? Why are they not fighting?
BURNETT: So, you understand where she's coming from when she says, I'm not going to play by the rules of where she's coming from?
JEAN-PIERRE: Look, one of the things that we saw very early on in this, in the Trump administration from Democrats in Congress is rubber-stamping Trump's appointees. Why? Why did that happen?
BURNETT: And it's almost like because traditionally it does happen, but traditionally it's bipartisan. Even if one party doesn't like the department of whatever, they do it.
JEAN-PIERRE: Majority of their appointees were not qualified to even be in the position that they were in or being put in. It's not normal times, and we know Project 2025, it was very clear what was going to happen these past ten months. And there was a behavior as if it's normal here. It's like politics as usual. We have to move in the way that were so accustomed to.
This is not 2003. This is just not we're not dealing with a conventional Republican in the White House. We are just not. And so we have to change the behavior. They have to change their behavior.
BURNETT: All right. So, I have to say, when I told people I was talking to you, and of course people have been waiting for your book. Right. So, again, the title independent a look inside a broken White House outside the party lines.
A lot of people say, oh, well, because Karine is going to say there was some massive cover up of Biden and, you know, the broken White House is Biden. And this whole cover up about his inability mentally to do the job. And he was out to lunch and all of this. Right. We -- okay. You write though in the book that is not what you mean by this book.
JEAN-PIERRE: No.
BURNETT: I want to be clear.
JEAN-PIERRE: And it's not -- it is not what I mean by --
BURNETT: So, in the book, you have a sentence. I was technically a part of the president's inner circle, and saw Biden every day and saw no such decline.
JEAN-PIERRE: Yes.
BURNETT: There are some people who will go, you are full of you know what? Tell me why those people are wrong.
JEAN-PIERRE: Well, I'm speaking for myself. I'm speaking for what I saw, and I if you think about it, this was like, on average, I saw him regularly. I saw this man regularly. I traveled with him about 95 percent of the time.
BURNETT: Yeah.
JEAN-PIERRE: I was his White House press secretary. I tell -- I've been telling this story. There were times where he would call me into the Oval Office, and in my mind, before I walked into the oval office, I was like, okay, what is he going to ask me if I'm going to have an answer for it? Because he was, he would always engage. He was on top of policy. So I'm talking on a regular basis.
BURNETT: It was an open secret that everybody knew and was covering up. You're saying that's a lie?
JEAN-PIERRE: That's not true. Now, we've always said he's aged. He got old. We all get older. We all saw him age. That is not something that we could even hide.
But to say that he wasn't aware of what was going on, he wasn't making decisions. He wasn't in the room. He wasn't pushing his staff on answers, on certain policies or actions that he wanted them to take. That was happening. That was happening.
BURNETT: So the reporting that's come out to the contrary, you're saying that is -- it's false.
JEAN-PIERRE: I'm just speaking for myself for what I saw, and that is what I saw, and that is what I want to be very clear about. And I take that very seriously. I do. I don't take that lightly.
BURNETT: Well, this is now your credibility on the line.
JEAN-PIERRE: And I've been -- but here's the thing. Everything that I'm saying here, I said at the podium behind that lectern for --
BURNETT: You did.
JEAN-PIERRE: For two and a half years.
BURNETT: So you were behind that lectern. Now, behind that lectern is Karoline Leavitt, and she has interacted. And I would watch you there and you would get in sparring with people. Right. The whole concept of sparring and being frustrated, that's part of the job, okay?
But she posted herself a screenshot, right, of this exchange that she had with "The Huffington Post" reporter. The reporter says, "Is the president aware of the significance of Budapest, referring to the location for a potential upcoming summit with Putin and Trump? Does he not see why Ukraine might object? Who suggested Budapest?" And the context was what had happened in prior negotiations with Budapest and Ukraine's nuclear program. Levitt responds to that, "Your mom did," and the reporter responds, "Is this funny to you?"
I understand in back-and-forths and we all have them with you asking questions, right? Your job is to have a relationship with all kinds of reporters.
[19:50:01]
What would have happened to you if you responded to a reporter that way? Would you ever have responded to a reporter that way?
JEAN-PIERRE: I would have never responded to a reporter that way. And I was in the job for two and a half years. And one of the things that the Biden-Harris administration appreciated and other administrations, whether it was an R or D behind their names, understands the importance of the freedom of the press, the exercising of having these briefings, not because -- not only because of what Americans saw and the democracy that was playing out in front of them, but globally, you're sending a message that we care about the fourth estate.
We care about making sure that the press who holds powerful people accountable have that opportunity to do it. We were not always happy with the press. We pushed back.
BURNETT: Right.
JEAN-PIERRE: But there's a level of respect that that needs to happen or giving that room to have the back, the back and forth and that sparring. And sometimes it's ugly, but to see --
BURNETT: Were you shocked to see this?
JEAN-PIERRE: It -- look, it's not the decorum that I would have done or that we would have done at the White House. We certainly would have pushed, you know, we -- don't get me wrong, we weren't perfect. We pushed back and there was some words sometimes that are spoken back and forth, but we understand that they're doing their job and we have to do ours.
But, look, it is important. It is important as we're fighting for our democracy, that we understand this, this what is happening in that briefing room is part of that. And when you take that away, then what happens? What do you -- then it looks like state TV.
It doesn't look like we are in a we are watching a sparring of the press, trying to get answers from us, and us trying to get our information out to the American people.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Karine, I really appreciate your taking the time. And of course, your book "Independent".
JEAN-PIERRE: Out today.
BURNETT: Now people know what it is not talking about. Now they can find out what it is talking about, but talking about your move to be an independent and why out today. Thank you so much.
JEAN-PIERRE: Thank you so much, Erin.
BURNETT: And next, breaking news, a Trump nominee just withdrawing after past comments and posts uncovered by our own KFILE. He's next.
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[19:55:52]
BURNETT: Breaking news, Trump's controversial pick to lead the Office of Special Counsel dropping out. Paul Ingrassia posting moments ago, quote, I will be withdrawing myself because unfortunately, I do not have enough Republican votes at this time.
Well, the reason for that is reporting. Reporting from KFILE, who first reported here OUTFRONT, that Ingrassia had a long record of making extreme statements, including that straight white men are the most intelligent demographic group. He also shared a nine 9/11 conspiracy video, which claimed the United States government planned the attacks or let them happen.
"Politico" last night, on the heels of KFILE's reporting published text messages in which Ingrassia allegedly said that he had a Nazi streak. And there's a lot more where this came from. Another stated, Martin Luther King Jr. Day should be ended and tossed into the seventh circle of hell, where it belongs. That's a quote.
Andrew Kaczynski is OUTFRONT now.
And, Andrew, obviously this did all start with your reporting on Paul Ingrassia statements that he had made in the past. Now he's withdrawing his nomination because Republicans made it clear, no way they've had enough. How did we get here?
ANDREW KACZYNSKI, CNN KFILE SENIOR EDITOR: Well, Erin, we had already covered Paul Ingrassia's long history of extreme and conspiratorial statements. Even before these new racist texts surfaced, his podcast Twitter account called for martial law to keep Donald Trump in power after the 2020 election. He shared 9/11 truther content on 9/11. He defended conspiracy theorist Alex Jones after the Sandy Hook verdict, writing quote, we all stand with Alex Jones, in all caps.
He described straight white men as the most intelligent demographic group, called the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel a psyop meant to distract from Columbus Day, whatever that means.
BURNETT: Yeah.
KACZYNSKI: He also attended a rally for white nationalist and Holocaust denier Nick Fuentes. He then later claimed he just stumbled upon this and it was an accident. But he also publicly defended Fuentes' right to post online.
Now, the podcast that he mentioned he co-hosted called for secession after Trump's defeat in 2020. If their legal efforts to overturn the 2020 election failed, he also attacked Trump's opponents in harsh and sometimes racially charged terms, referring to former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley as a, quote, "insufferable bitch". He mocked her full name in racist taunts.
He also attacked Ron DeSantis, who also ran against Trump in 2024, and his wife and his spokeswoman, Christina Pushaw. He called them both harlots.
So this was really honestly, that's just a small, small portion of what we covered as you know, wild as all that was.
BURNETT: It is stunning to think that all of that could have come from one person and that anybody who had that particular record could have gotten as far, frankly, as he did in this process.
KACZYNSKI: That was so interesting about the text is it very much matches the public statement.
BURNETT: Yes. Right. Right. I mean, that that is 100 percent true. So now he has is being forced to step aside, withdraw his nomination. But the White House withdrew another nominee that you had reported on about a week ago, right after your reporting as well. This was Trump's pick to lead the Bureau of Labor Statistics, a crucial job, right, because he had fired up the prior person career bureaucrat said the numbers are rigged, picked his own person E.J. Antoni, and had to pull that.
KACZYNSKI: Well, that's right. E.J. Antoni nomination got pulled. He -- some people remember we did that segment on the show. He had shared sexually graphic comments about Kamala Harris, previously been reported that he was at the January 6th protest at the capitol.
They've had a number of these nominees, like Ed Martin, who we also talked about on here, who they nominated, and also had to withdraw his nomination. It's been interesting to see, because they've been -- these are -- some of the nominees they have gotten through. We've seen nominees they've gotten through.
But at least in some of these examples, these people are being too extreme for even the Republicans who are going along with Trump.
BURNETT: But -- and again, just to point out, though, the vetting that should happen before anyone gets to that point would be to look at this stuff. But that vetting is happening here --
KACZYNSKI: But --
BURNETT: -- from you.
KACZYNSKI: Yes, but is Paul Ingrassia, he's getting - he was getting nominated. I mean, these statements are very also sort of part of why he's nominated. He was so pro-Trump in 2024.
He was on -- what were his credentials. Right? He was -- he was just had graduated from college, just passed the bar. His only credential to be nominated for a position like this was that he was such a pro- Trump commentator.
BURNETT: All right. Andrew Kaczynski of KFILE, thank you very much.
And thanks so much to all of you.
"AC360" starts now.
